Reconciliation

[Daztur]

If things are as bad as some seem to think, the time to fight is now.  Otherwise, they'll round you up before you ever get around to it based on your internet posts.

Exactly, except of course, they won't. They are a bunch of keyboard warriors. They know that if they actually fight they have already lost, particularly when considering that the moderates are also on the shit list, and that they themselves (the "warriors" here) aren't exactly unified either (also notice the chaotic bunch that was the Jan 6 crowd) 

What gives me the most hope for the future is, whatever you can say about the original fascists a whole lot of them were hardass veterans of WW I trench warfare. 21st century fascists though? 99% of them are a bunch of angry idiots shouting on the internet who'll never actually do anything. It's important for sane people to arm themselves as the current crop of fascists are generally cowardly loudmouths who would never ever get involved in a fair fight.

[3catcircus]

If things are as bad as some seem to think, the time to fight is now.  Otherwise, they'll round you up before you ever get around to it based on your internet posts.

Exactly, except of course, they won't. They are a bunch of keyboard warriors. They know that if they actually fight they have already lost, particularly when considering that the moderates are also on the shit list, and that they themselves (the "warriors" here) aren't exactly unified either (also notice the chaotic bunch that was the Jan 6 crowd) 

So we should all should live in fear? I must admit there are way too many keyboard warriors talking about things they don't understand. All these guys who have never been in a fist fight talking about how they are going to go down shooting with a hot empty gun in their cold dead hands. Fighting and killing is hard; most cannot do it. Most likely they will end up being taken away whimpering and crying.

But I think it is just a matter of time. They are going to come after us brave or not. Armed or not. Guilty or not. Indeed, look at the Jan 6th crowd... at worst trespass. That is a misdemeanor -- $150 fine and 30 days in jail. No weapons, no violence. And yet almost 2 years on and they are still in solitary confinement being denied legal representation, basic human rights, etc. Why? Because they scared powerful and evil people.

Win elections again. Judging from what I see around me, the right had a lot of sympathy before the last midterm election, but then they also lost a LOT of momentum because of the abortion issue. I magine all the women who already had an abortion just going "nope".

Still, notice how just a little win in the midterm started to change things away from the woke narrative everywhere.

Yes, win elections again. But that implies that elections were conducted without criminal activity. 

We have an AZ Sec of State who threatened county elections officials with prison if they didn't vote to confirm she won and then she certified her own election results.

We have proof that Dems used database latency to make mass change of address requests on voters for mail ballots that are undeliverable due to bad zip codes which are then collected by a bad actor after which the zip codes are changed back in the voter rolls database. Then those "undeliverable" ballots are brought into polling locations under the cover of various facility issues (flooding, loss of power, fire, etc.) that cleared the building of occupants that could watch them do it

We *need* very public and very brutal punishment of willful election fraud. And it starts with jettisoning those in the RNC who are weak or actually in on the corruption.

[Trond]

If things are as bad as some seem to think, the time to fight is now.  Otherwise, they'll round you up before you ever get around to it based on your internet posts.

Exactly, except of course, they won't. They are a bunch of keyboard warriors. They know that if they actually fight they have already lost, particularly when considering that the moderates are also on the shit list, and that they themselves (the "warriors" here) aren't exactly unified either (also notice the chaotic bunch that was the Jan 6 crowd) 

So we should all should live in fear? I must admit there are way too many keyboard warriors talking about things they don't understand. All these guys who have never been in a fist fight talking about how they are going to go down shooting with a hot empty gun in their cold dead hands. Fighting and killing is hard; most cannot do it. Most likely they will end up being taken away whimpering and crying.

But I think it is just a matter of time. They are going to come after us brave or not. Armed or not. Guilty or not. Indeed, look at the Jan 6th crowd... at worst trespass. That is a misdemeanor -- $150 fine and 30 days in jail. No weapons, no violence. And yet almost 2 years on and they are still in solitary confinement being denied legal representation, basic human rights, etc. Why? Because they scared powerful and evil people.

Win elections again. Judging from what I see around me, the right had a lot of sympathy before the last midterm election, but then they also lost a LOT of momentum because of the abortion issue. I magine all the women who already had an abortion just going "nope".

Still, notice how just a little win in the midterm started to change things away from the woke narrative everywhere.

Yes, win elections again. But that implies that elections were conducted without criminal activity. 

We have an AZ Sec of State who threatened county elections officials with prison if they didn't vote to confirm she won and then she certified her own election results.

We have proof that Dems used database latency to make mass change of address requests on voters for mail ballots that are undeliverable due to bad zip codes which are then collected by a bad actor after which the zip codes are changed back in the voter rolls database. Then those "undeliverable" ballots are brought into polling locations under the cover of various facility issues (flooding, loss of power, fire, etc.) that cleared the building of occupants that could watch them do it

We *need* very public and very brutal punishment of willful election fraud. And it starts with jettisoning those in the RNC who are weak or actually in on the corruption.

I agree. So focus on winning elections, and supporting people like Project Veritas and others (like James Woods suing the Democtrats now) who go after people who cheat.

[I]

I'm generally all for compromise, but compromise implies a give and take situation.  I can't see that leftists ever give anything, they just take.  We give them an inch, they take a mile. 

Let's take as an example - one of many I could use - the Civil Rights movement, specifically school integration.  American Blacks and their white liberal allies had become convinced that the only way black kids would ever get equal educational resources was by integrating white schools.  And in fact, "separate but equal" really was  a lie, since in no way were facilities for black children, salaries for black schoolteachers, etc. equal to the white ones (at least in the South).  Most Americans, including the white majority, agreed with this and so the compromise of public school integration eventually happened, albeit over resistance.

When the test scores of black children didn't get any better, then liberals argued that we needed more black teachers, as the black kids needed black role models.  So we got more of them, even though that meant racial discrimination against white teachers who might be more qualified. **   Since white teachers ousted from their jobs were a minority of the population, they lost out and this too happened.

But black graduation rates and test scores still didn't rise, so then it was argued that we had to dumb down the curriculum.  This too happened, as the politicians making the decisions and the influential journalists pushing for them sent their kids to private schools or public schools in rich, all-white areas anyway.

Then it was argued that black children, especially boys, didn't react to discipline well and needed to be able to "act out" (i.e., misbehave without any negative consequences).  Again, this happened. The lack of discipline not only made schools more dangerous, it had a serious negative effect on students who actually wanted to learn.  The idea that black children are both inherently more stupid and more violent than other humans, once mainly the province of conservatives,  is by now in full flower among liberals.  They just believe these traits should be encouraged instead of repressed, as did the conservatives.

And here we are today with one of the world's shittiest public school systems, with many public school students routinely graduated not knowing how to read above an eighth-grade level and not really being equipped to get any sort of decent-paying job.  This is what "compromise" has brought us with regard to public education in the U.S.  As should be apparent to even the veriest idiot, a better way to handle all of this would have been to either equalize school resources or fully integrate and then end it there.  There WAS no compromise, just a string of giving liberals whatever they asked for, no matter how dumb. And now they often ask for, and get, SEGREGATED schools, student dorms, student unions, etc. 


**This in fact happened to my then-girlfriend, later wife.  She interviewed for a teaching position in a mostly-black elementary school and was told that she was by far the best applicant, "head and shoulders" above the rest.  Then she was told by the interviewers that she wouldn't be getting the job, as she wasn't black.  Nice.

[Mistwell]

Greetings!

Geesus. Fuck the "Moderates". All of those worms that love to wallow in "The Middle" while smugly pronouncing how oh so sophisticated and reasonable they are

Bullshit. They don't declare any such thing. Fuck dude, YOU claim that about your views. You did it in this very post. We just believe what we believe like anyone else. And you pout because it's not what you believe. Moderates smug? What bullshit. Moderates tend to keep their heads down and try to stay out of the line of fire. Smug is calling everyone the enemy if they don't fully agree.

[Zelen]

And here we are today with one of the world's shittiest public school systems, with many public school students routinely graduated not knowing how to read above an eighth-grade level and not really being equipped to get any sort of decent-paying job...

While I'd echo most of what you said, one thing to be cautious of here is the misleading nature of aggregated data. The Program for International Student Assessment, for example, shows that American students perform roughly equivalently to European students in their standardized testing. Broader USA school underperformance is easily understood because it's a more heterogenous group. Places like Texas that have regions that are majority-hispanic perform roughly equivalently to countries like Mexico on standardized testing.

As should be apparent to even the veriest idiot, a better way to handle all of this would have been to either equalize school resources or fully integrate and then end it there.

I'll disagree with this point here. There is no value-neutral way to allocate resources. The value-neutral thing is important, because that's the whole reason why we theoretically favor "equality." But "equality" is a fraud. It's a cop-out for a real argument.

When I was in school, we had a special program for the students that were more intelligent. The school allocated additional resources for us to give us an advantage, and in turn we represented the school in competitions and events that helped us (theoretically) bring prestige and accolades. We sent our best musicians to play in concerts, and we send our best athletes in competitions.

These days I don't think most (USA) schools have this kind of program anymore. These resources are now allocated towards diversity programs and special education. While I think there can be some value in these things, on a case-by-case basis, they're largely a waste.

More important is the broader principle: should you cultivate the talents of the most promising, or strive endlessly to bring up the least talented? The former strategy works, the latter strategy does not work. Yet "equality" is predicated on the latter strategy. That's not a way to make a functional society.

[oggsmash]

If things are as bad as some seem to think, the time to fight is now.  Otherwise, they'll round you up before you ever get around to it based on your internet posts.

Exactly, except of course, they won't. They are a bunch of keyboard warriors. They know that if they actually fight they have already lost, particularly when considering that the moderates are also on the shit list, and that they themselves (the "warriors" here) aren't exactly unified either (also notice the chaotic bunch that was the Jan 6 crowd) 

What gives me the most hope for the future is, whatever you can say about the original fascists a whole lot of them were hardass veterans of WW I trench warfare. 21st century fascists though? 99% of them are a bunch of angry idiots shouting on the internet who'll never actually do anything. It's important for sane people to arm themselves as the current crop of fascists are generally cowardly loudmouths who would never ever get involved in a fair fight.

  First the fascists are imaginary.   There are pretty much a non population in the USA.  Second, if you think there are no people who can and will fight in the USA over some of the bullshit going on (or is it fascist to not be instantly on board with boys in the girls locker rooms and letting trannies hang around elementary school kids) you are going to FAFO.   Thanks to the global american empire policy of bombing everyone into democracy for decades now there are A LOT of combat veterans in the USA.  A lot of them are being demonized in society openly for just being white.   Good luck on how that turns out once dip shits go too far.

[Bruwulf]

When I was in school, we had a special program for the students that were more intelligent. The school allocated additional resources for us to give us an advantage, and in turn we represented the school in competitions and events that helped us (theoretically) bring prestige and accolades. We sent our best musicians to play in concerts, and we send our best athletes in competitions.

These days I don't think most (USA) schools have this kind of program anymore. These resources are now allocated towards diversity programs and special education. While I think there can be some value in these things, on a case-by-case basis, they're largely a waste.

I'm usually right there with anyone who wants to run down our current abomination of an education system, but many schools do still offer things like AP courses, things like band competitions and athletics competitions, and so on. And many schools offer things like extra-curricular language courses, "mathletics" or whatever term they use, as well.

I've got a couple of pretty damned impressive nieces and get to hear all the stories at every family gathering.

Our school systems suck, but damn them for what they deserve.

[Bruwulf]

How is it strawmanning to use a historical example that demonstrates the flaw in the thesis that "assholes" won't magically turn into "freedom-loving rational actors" after they win?

First of all, that's not what said. What I said was, it's not stawmanning to respond directly to your own arguments. That is, if my arguments were strawman arguments(they weren't), you're the one who gave me the chance to make them. You are the one who was using armed revolution and the revolutionary war in your argument, I was just responding to that. That's not strawmanning.

And why doesnt that work as an argument? Well, to start with, because you aren't George Washington, it's not ~350 years ago, because the demographics involved are radically different, because society is radically different, because... Well, because basically every single thing that can be different, is different.

As well to say we can't allow British ships near our shores today because they might impress our dock workers. Or that France is our strongest military ally.

Beyond that, one example does not a pattern make. The American revolution turned out well. How many revolutions turned into a shitshow afterwords, instead? I've never explicitly counted, but I'm going to say revolutions that end well, and don't devolve into a carnival of tyranny, excess, corruption, or just incompetence are are the exception, not the rule.

[Zelen]

Beyond that, one example does not a pattern make. The American revolution turned out well. How many revolutions turned into a shitshow afterwords, instead? I've never explicitly counted, but I'm going to say revolutions that end well, and don't devolve into a carnival of tyranny, excess, corruption, or just incompetence are are the exception, not the rule.

Sure, but also:

[Bruwulf]

Sure, but also:

That... doesn't refute anything I said.

[Zelen]

That... doesn't refute anything I said.

I'm not trying refute anything you said. I agree with it, but with context.

[jhkim]

I'm generally all for compromise, but compromise implies a give and take situation.  I can't see that leftists ever give anything, they just take.  We give them an inch, they take a mile. 

Let's take as an example - one of many I could use - the Civil Rights movement, specifically school integration.  American Blacks and their white liberal allies had become convinced that the only way black kids would ever get equal educational resources was by integrating white schools.  And in fact, "separate but equal" really was  a lie, since in no way were facilities for black children, salaries for black schoolteachers, etc. equal to the white ones (at least in the South).  Most Americans, including the white majority, agreed with this and so the compromise of public school integration eventually happened, albeit over resistance.

When the test scores of black children didn't get any better, then liberals argued that we needed more black teachers, as the black kids needed black role models.

By the phrase "give an inch and they'll take a mile" -- you're implying that the 1950s racial integration was a mistake, and there should have been even greater resistance. That equalizing resources without integration would have been a reasonable route. I think this is spurious. After school integration, there was a marked improvement in black student scores. It's just that it did not bring score all the way to parity, which is not surprising given that there remain many disparities outside of school.

U.S. schools continue to be primarily locally funded, so schools in rich neighborhoods have much better resources than schools in poor neighborhoods.

Here's a graph from NAEP data. You'll see that black scores have gone up more rapidly than white score since 1971 when NAEP was started.


Source: https://huebler.blogspot.com/2009/05/usa.html

In the bigger narrative, the American school system of the 1950s was not particularly good. It was a factory drill-and-kill system from the early 1900s that emphasized memorization over understanding. It was just better than its competition in WWII-devastated Europe and East Asia at the time. Since the 1950s, many countries in Europe and East Asia have put major effort into improving their school systems, while the U.S. has not. There are some U.S. states, like Massachusetts, that have a top-notch education systems. But it is state-by-state, and most states have not put in the effort.

We have slight improvement over time as shown by the NAEP scores, but other countries have shown much more improvement.

In particular, I would dispute these:

But black graduation rates and test scores still didn't rise, so then it was argued that we had to dumb down the curriculum.  This too happened, as the politicians making the decisions and the influential journalists pushing for them sent their kids to private schools or public schools in rich, all-white areas anyway.

Then it was argued that black children, especially boys, didn't react to discipline well and needed to be able to "act out" (i.e., misbehave without any negative consequences).  Again, this happened.

I already mention test scores, and I also disagree about graduation rates. Since the 1950s, black student graduation rates have improved even more markedly than test scores.



I also do not agree that nationwide schools were dumbed down and reduced in discipline in order to accommodate black students. As shown above, compared to the 1950s, we now have greater percentage of low-income students of all races who are completing high school. Comparing apples to apples, these are students who before had less overall education, and educational attainment has improved among all races.

To the degree that there has been anything like this, it hasn't come from liberals. The biggest push for leveling has come from conservatives - specifically George H.W. Bush and the "No Child Left Behind" policy, that pushed on metrics to equalize test scores for all races. This did lead to attempts to normalize test scores by any means, which usually means muddying the stats.

[DocJones]

We have proof that Dems used database latency to make mass change of address requests on voters for mail ballots that are undeliverable due to bad zip codes which are then collected by a bad actor after which the zip codes are changed back in the voter rolls database. Then those "undeliverable" ballots are brought into polling locations under the cover of various facility issues (flooding, loss of power, fire, etc.) that cleared the building of occupants that could watch them do it

LOL.  No there is zero evidence that this occurred.
Do some actual research on the grifter who is advancing that ridiculous theory.

[Willmark]

That's not going to make reconcilliation more viable. It's already being portrayed as the Worst Thing Evar by the left.

Funny how communists get mad when they can't control what people say...

Indeed the whole "I'm leaving Twitter" feet stomp sounds a lot like the "I'm on saving for Canada." Yet they are still here.