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Author Topic: Reconciliation  (Read 40342 times)

Bruwulf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #165 on: December 04, 2022, 11:56:39 AM »
  well I agree it is a weak argument in a logical sense, but guess what?  That bullshit works and works like a charm.  So...if you are going to be in a fight with someone fighting fair is really stupid.

This. This is what mainstream Republicans don't get. No one gives a shit about Queensberry Rules. You have to win by any means necessary.

I'm not talking about fighting fair or being nice. I'm saying it's a meaningless argument that can be used to justify anything, and yet really justifies nothing. It's not even really an argument, it's a silencing tactic. It's basically just "Shut up, Nazi". It's every bit as robust and logical as the idiots who try the whole "Hitler was a vegetarian!" joking meme argument against vegans.

It's not even being wrong, it's just being dumb.

Brad

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #166 on: December 05, 2022, 10:35:11 AM »
This is exactly what communists say until they gain control, then all that crap goes right out the window.

"<X> is exactly what <Y> would say!" is one of weakest and most suspect arguments in existence. I heard it enough over on TBP.

"Meat is good, I like meat!"

"That sounds like something a cannibal would say!"

Yes. Similar basic ideals can be held both by people with good intentions and people with bad intentions. But, with a margin of error small enough it hardly matters, almost every time this argument gets used, what I hear is "I can't actually argue the basic point, so I'm just going to compare you to someone we've all agreed to hate to silence you."

I didn't make an argument, I just pointed out a fact. Cf. every communist regime for the past hundred years. I mean, what are you trying to refute? Have you ever read Hegel before? This is exactly how it works.
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Bruwulf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #167 on: December 05, 2022, 11:09:57 AM »
I didn't make an argument, I just pointed out a fact. Cf. every communist regime for the past hundred years. I mean, what are you trying to refute? Have you ever read Hegel before? This is exactly how it works.

Well, you're right that you didn't make an argument.

My response is, so what?

Bad people do <X>. So what? Are you saying <X> is bad because bad people do it? Are you saying <X> makes bad people? Are you saying because bad people do <X>, we should be suspicious of anyone who supports <X>? Are you saying we need to regulate <X> because bad people lie about supporting it?

Again, bad people do <X>, so what?

Brad

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #168 on: December 05, 2022, 11:22:38 AM »
Well, you're right that you didn't make an argument.

My response is, so what?

Bad people do <X>. So what? Are you saying <X> is bad because bad people do it? Are you saying <X> makes bad people? Are you saying because bad people do <X>, we should be suspicious of anyone who supports <X>? Are you saying we need to regulate <X> because bad people lie about supporting it?

Again, bad people do <X>, so what?

So nothing, just an observation. Think of it more like a flippant remark intended to obliquely insult our resident CCP agent.
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Mistwell

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #169 on: December 05, 2022, 04:51:54 PM »
But Conservatives refuse to treat moderates and independents with anything like respect right now. Let's see if that changes for this next election.

Really? You really think that's a conservative problem?

Here's a whole thread full of gamers on reddit high-fiving each other and agreeing that you gotta keep those filthy moderates out of games, because they're just closet nazis who don't wanna admit it.

I absolutely do not think it's JUST a conservative problem. Tons of people have that same problem, including most liberals. But that's pretty typical for the last 25 years or so. It's not as typical for conservatives over that time frame. The utter disrespect for moderates and independents from conservatives started around Trump. Which means I know the people I am talking to likely used to be more accepting of moderates and now are not, and I hope to appeal to whatever was in them which used to be OK with moderates.

Mistwell

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #170 on: December 05, 2022, 04:56:49 PM »
There won't be any reconciliation.  That requires compromise and finding common ground.  It's increasingly difficult to even speak with progressives, let alone find common ground.  They continue to push the ridiculous which further alienates those that should be considered "moderate".

If you focus on making moderates and independents the power in the nation you won't need to negotiate with progressives.

It's not like Israel is negotiating with progressives right now.

But Conservatives refuse to treat moderates and independents with anything like respect right now. Let's see if that changes for this next election.

Talk about oblivious to history!  Every time a "moderate" is in power, they give the left everything they want.  Name the great moderates in American politics.  McCain?  Romney?  GHW Bush?  How did they push back on the left?  They just headed left more slowly.

I could list a ton of conservative principles they supported with policies, you'd ignore the ones that make you uncomfortable and focus on some tiny aspect of one you thought you could spin to exploit as "proof" of your argument, and it would be useless. Because, as you admit, you're starting from a position of disrespect, so anything I say as a moderate you'd disrespect.

Quote
The fact is that moderates and independents have no platform, no beliefs, and no principles.  If they did, they'd be defined by those, and not by the fact that they are in the middle of competing belief systems.  And that's why they can't be trusted.  Because being "moderate" or "civil" or whatever other terms they use to virtue signal is far more important than actual beliefs or accomplishments.  They are the people who think Solomon should have actually split the baby.  I'd rather be fighting those who truly believe in the opposite of what I do than subject to the vacillations of the principle-less middle.  To paraphrase Patton, I'd rather have a liberal division in front of me than a "moderate" one behind me...

No dumbass moderates are as principled as anyone else they just don't fit in the perfect little model you fit yourself in. They can be pro-choice and pro-gun-control but against higher taxes and business regulations, etc.. Saying you have to line up exactly with all the conservative issues or else you're unprincipled is nonsense. Your principles are no more or less valuable and consistent as a moderates, you just have a unified label for yours that you're satisfied-enough with.

SHARK

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #171 on: December 05, 2022, 09:52:25 PM »
Greetings!

Geesus. Fuck the "Moderates". All of those worms that love to wallow in "The Middle" while smugly pronouncing how oh so sophisticated and reasonable they are, typically maintaining that they are "Fiscally Conservative, but socially Liberal". Those wormy fucks have been a constant problem in the GOP since the days of Reagan, where they typically opposed and resisted President Reagan's policies and efforts.

These jello-filled wormtongues are very often nowadays what we know as being "RINOS". The fucking McCains, the Liz Cheneys, the Mitt Romneys. They like to proclaim that they're "Conservatives!" Fuck you. No, they are not. Merely embracing Conservative fiscal policies while being socially Liberal means that you can fucking gargle napalm. These fuckers are constantly compromising with the Liberals, and gleefully and stupidly opening the door for Marxism to pour in. Like has been mentioned, most of these jackasses have been quite content over the last 30 years to allow the country and culture to be fucked by Communism--just moving to the left more slowly than the Liberal cunts would prefer and actively push to do so.

These wormtongues work against Conservatives on everything really important--morals, guns, the Constitution, resisting Communism, parental authority, school choice, abortion laws, all of it. "Fiscally Conservative!" Pfftt! BIG FUCKING DEAL. That is far down the list of priorities in fighting against the fucking Liberals and saving our country from Communism.

The mushy middle are weak fucking pussies. Our country is struggling against fucking Communism, and needs real warriors, true patriots to stand up, and constantly fight and resist the goddamned Liberals--not find ways to compromise with them, or go play golf, or laugh while their kids date each other.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #172 on: December 06, 2022, 12:35:01 AM »
I know I'm not going to change my opinions and beliefs because some internet goober whined that I'm being "too moderate".
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oggsmash

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #173 on: December 06, 2022, 05:37:51 AM »
  well I agree it is a weak argument in a logical sense, but guess what?  That bullshit works and works like a charm.  So...if you are going to be in a fight with someone fighting fair is really stupid.

This. This is what mainstream Republicans don't get. No one gives a shit about Queensberry Rules. You have to win by any means necessary.

I'm not talking about fighting fair or being nice. I'm saying it's a meaningless argument that can be used to justify anything, and yet really justifies nothing. It's not even really an argument, it's a silencing tactic. It's basically just "Shut up, Nazi". It's every bit as robust and logical as the idiots who try the whole "Hitler was a vegetarian!" joking meme argument against vegans.

It's not even being wrong, it's just being dumb.

 Again, I agree.  I also can clearly see retard level dumb WORKS when it comes to moving the needle in the direction one might want politically.  The whole book rules for radicals centers around just tossing out dumbs shit non stop to put others on the defensive, because the goal is not to look or sound smart, it is to win.  To get what you want.

oggsmash

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #174 on: December 06, 2022, 05:39:24 AM »
There won't be any reconciliation.  That requires compromise and finding common ground.  It's increasingly difficult to even speak with progressives, let alone find common ground.  They continue to push the ridiculous which further alienates those that should be considered "moderate".

If you focus on making moderates and independents the power in the nation you won't need to negotiate with progressives.

It's not like Israel is negotiating with progressives right now.

But Conservatives refuse to treat moderates and independents with anything like respect right now. Let's see if that changes for this next election.

Talk about oblivious to history!  Every time a "moderate" is in power, they give the left everything they want.  Name the great moderates in American politics.  McCain?  Romney?  GHW Bush?  How did they push back on the left?  They just headed left more slowly.

I could list a ton of conservative principles they supported with policies, you'd ignore the ones that make you uncomfortable and focus on some tiny aspect of one you thought you could spin to exploit as "proof" of your argument, and it would be useless. Because, as you admit, you're starting from a position of disrespect, so anything I say as a moderate you'd disrespect.

Quote
The fact is that moderates and independents have no platform, no beliefs, and no principles.  If they did, they'd be defined by those, and not by the fact that they are in the middle of competing belief systems.  And that's why they can't be trusted.  Because being "moderate" or "civil" or whatever other terms they use to virtue signal is far more important than actual beliefs or accomplishments.  They are the people who think Solomon should have actually split the baby.  I'd rather be fighting those who truly believe in the opposite of what I do than subject to the vacillations of the principle-less middle.  To paraphrase Patton, I'd rather have a liberal division in front of me than a "moderate" one behind me...

No dumbass moderates are as principled as anyone else they just don't fit in the perfect little model you fit yourself in. They can be pro-choice and pro-gun-control but against higher taxes and business regulations, etc.. Saying you have to line up exactly with all the conservative issues or else you're unprincipled is nonsense. Your principles are no more or less valuable and consistent as a moderates, you just have a unified label for yours that you're satisfied-enough with.

   "moderates" in a modern sense have NO principles.  They are like jellyfish.  If you are pro gun control and against higher taxes you do not understand how the world works.   "Far right" principles and stances today are just "moderate" principles from 20 years ago.  There is no moderate when the window is sliding so fast to the left.

blackstone

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #175 on: December 06, 2022, 11:01:33 AM »
I don't think reconciliation is possible no.

Where would the left even start?

Would they apologize for the 2020 riots? The people they murdered?
Would they admit to spending the entirety of Donald Trump's presidency lying about him? What would they do to atone for the propaganda and fear mongering?
Are the voter base going to stop voting for the Democratic politicians that has become nothing but woke progressive liars?
Are those politicians going to resign?
Are they going to dismantle their own propaganda machine? Will they rise up against deplatforming and suppression?
Will they actually start caring about left wing issues again as something more than just a pretense?

Obviously not. I think if there is one thing the left actually wants it is to retain things as they are. They're not going to wake up, go 'oh gods what have we become' and try to atone. Those who do will do like Tulsi and leave. Any hope of reconciliation requires reforming the modern left into something that isn't just a lie, and any hope of that died in 2020.

But you just hit the nail on the head.  Tulsi Gabbard is, to the left, worse than a traitor, because she can clearly articulate to the public just exactly how fucked up their agenda is.

But let's be clear.  It isn't that there are all these leftists who organically just want to be activists for bledding-heart causes. They are useful idiots for a ChiCom (primarily) communist agenda.  The CCP owns many US politicians and business leaders - across the political spectrum.  Ask yourself who benefits from an agenda that proposes that sexually confused teens take hormone blockers and chop off body parts and don't engage in traditional gender roles. Ask yourself who benefits from having a citizenry divided amongst itself. Or that allows an unchecked horde of non-loyal immigrants. Or that allows foreign holding companies to buy real estate and businesses, including farmland and facilities in the food and energy sectors? How many other "10% to the big guy" criminal activities are going on that haven't come to light?  Why did a group of both Dem and Rep senators try to stifle the SEC investigation of FTX?  How many pols of both parties continue to miraculous beat the S&P 500? Follow the money.

How many other countries tolerate any of this?  Go ahead and try dissenting in China and see how quickly you end up in a reeducation prison.

We are a nation divided, led by an administrative state that is not loyal to the principles the country was founded on, and society is in moral decay.  The US *is* the Roman Empire under Caligula and Nero.

You nailed it on the head 100%. I've been saying this for twenty years now. the comparisons to the late Roman empire are frightening:
-a politically divided population: in the late Roman Empire it was the supporters of the Senate vs the Emperor. In the USA today, it's the extremes of left and right vying for control of the center.
-borders that are not under control: late Roman empire is was invasions of Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, etc. Today in the US: illegal immigration from Mexico , Central America, and Caribbean.
- fighting several costly wars: late Roman Empire: fighting barbarian invasions. USA today: Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.
- over-taxed citizens
there are others, but I think these are the ones that are key. Ultimately, the Roman Empire decayed from the inside, and pressures from outside dealt the death blow. Mind you, this didn't happen all at once. The Roman Empire's decline took several hundred years. IMO, the decline of the US is already in progress and been in decline since the late 60s. I would say in the next 50 years, the United States as it is today will no longer exist. It will be a dim shadow of itself. but this is the way of the world since the beginning of time. Empires and nations rise and fall. It's inevitable.

And sad.

At least for me. Most of my life I believed in the American Dream. A good portion of that was also spent defending those beliefs, the Constitution, and freedom. Now? This nation is slowly falling apart. Too much extremes. Nobody willing to take the center road for the common good of all. Corruption, greed, and loss of it's moral center. "A house divided cannot stand". Well, let it fall. Let it burn. Let it come crashing down. I'm ready. My family is ready. We've been ready for the coming shit storm for years. If neither one of you extreme assholes out there aren't willing to swallow your pride and come to a common ground with each other, well, I got news for ya. BOTH of you are screwed. We're all screwed.

Let. It. Burn.

Bruwulf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #176 on: December 06, 2022, 11:03:01 AM »
Again, I agree.  I also can clearly see retard level dumb WORKS when it comes to moving the needle in the direction one might want politically.  The whole book rules for radicals centers around just tossing out dumbs shit non stop to put others on the defensive, because the goal is not to look or sound smart, it is to win.  To get what you want.

I'm not willing to win that way.

This isn't about fighting fair, or being the bigger man, or anything. It's purely a practical issue. It's because I know the things waiting in the wings of my own party. We are not saints. The Republican party has it's own excesses, and can be every bit the morally puritanical, holier than thou, censoring tyrants the Democrats can be if given even half a chance. If we win the fight for the 2nd Amendment and chasing out the communists but we do so by the same bullshit tactics dangerhairs and the woke crusaders and rioters use, the society we're left with won't actually be any better or more free than what they want. If I win the freedom to criticize the opposition, but the cost is losing the freedom to criticize my nominal allies, I haven't actually won.


   "moderates" in a modern sense have NO principles.  They are like jellyfish.  If you are pro gun control and against higher taxes you do not understand how the world works.   "Far right" principles and stances today are just "moderate" principles from 20 years ago.  There is no moderate when the window is sliding so fast to the left.

We live in a two party system. And even if you look past "Republican" and "Democrat" and try to make it "Conservative" vs "Liberal", or, well, literally any two groups of that size, if you expect 51% or more of the people who vote in one direction to actually believe exactly the same thing about everything, your definition of "principles" is ridiculous. Hell, my closest friend in all the world and I still disagree on some things.

I mostly hold fairly conservative positions. I'm a free speech absolutist, I'm pro-2A to the point I had the pro-2A people over at TBP telling me "whoah, slow down there, Bruwulf." I despise wokeness in almost all it's forms. I'm against things like UBI, reparations, and similar programs. I think California is a failed state - along with a few others at this point. And so on. But on the other hand, I do support gay marriage, and I'd really rather not go back to the 80s where gays were literally criminalized for having sex in some states. Sorry, I'm gay, but I'm not one of those funny self-hating ones that thinks I can pray away the gay or feels like voluntarily living celebately for the rest of my life. And I've already said earlier that I'm anti-death-penalty, another area where I typically part company from conservatives. If that makes me a spineless jellyfish moderate, well... I guess you'll have to just swallow your damned disgust and accept my vote anyways, because I'm sure not gonna vote the other direction right now. I mean, for fuck's sake, the other guys knowingly elected a gibbering Alzheimer's patient who should be in a nursing home, not the white house.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 11:05:21 AM by Bruwulf »

Chris24601

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #177 on: December 06, 2022, 12:48:43 PM »
Again, I agree.  I also can clearly see retard level dumb WORKS when it comes to moving the needle in the direction one might want politically.  The whole book rules for radicals centers around just tossing out dumbs shit non stop to put others on the defensive, because the goal is not to look or sound smart, it is to win.  To get what you want.
I'm not willing to win that way.
Then accept that you and everyone you love who doesn't betray you will lose, suffer and die and the winners will write in the history books that you were a monster who deserved what you got.

There's a thing called picking your battles and not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good (or less bad in this case). The Left has been moving the needle for a hundred years and we've hit the existential crisis level. You can't clean that up overnight... its going to take years (decades realistically) pushing back in the other direction to fix it. The only question in terms of politicians these days is "which side sucks less."

You push the needle by getting involved in the primaries and pushing for best candidate both there and in the general and take the ground back inch by inch just like they took it inch by inch.

The Republican establishment sucks ass, but we allied with the Soviets to take down the Nazis... and the deck is so stacked against third parties that a hostile takeover of Republican Inc. (both parties are corporations... and if not for all the judges belonging to them could probably be sued for anti-trust collusion) is the most viable battle strategy at the moment. There are thousands of open positions that can affect that... I signed up for one unoccupied precinct position this last election and now I have a vote in the corporate outcomes; if everyone disgusted with the direction of the country did the same we could actually make real changes... but most just want to whine about it on social media (or here) rather than actually do something about it.

Zelen

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #178 on: December 06, 2022, 12:52:23 PM »
Again, I agree.  I also can clearly see retard level dumb WORKS when it comes to moving the needle in the direction one might want politically.  The whole book rules for radicals centers around just tossing out dumbs shit non stop to put others on the defensive, because the goal is not to look or sound smart, it is to win.  To get what you want.

I'm not willing to win that way.

Thing is, look at what happens when Communists take power. Mass death. We're already seeing people locked down, prevented from traveling, mass censorship, imprisonment without trial, fake elections, bank accounts frozen, commerce banned for undesirables, kulaks having land seized, etc.

There's a point at which you have to understand what time it is.

oggsmash

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #179 on: December 06, 2022, 01:32:13 PM »
Being against the death penalty is not moderate or liberal.  Its common sense.  Death penalty as the USA uses it does not discourage crime nor is it cost effective.  As for any one’s vote…that ship has sailed.