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Author Topic: Reconciliation  (Read 3772 times)

Mistwell

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2022, 01:59:19 PM »
Except sometimes there is.

Again, disingenuous nonsense.

Let us be clear: When people talk about "the border crisis" and "illegal immigration" as political topics, you and I both know nobody is taking about edge cases like people fleeing religious persecution. Americans, even conservatives, have historically been receptive to that sort of immigration. Hell, Cuban refuges have been embraced better than most others because they are more clearly refugees fleeing oppression.

That is neither the sort of immigration people are talking about as apolitical issue, nor more than than a tiny fraction of it.

86% of likely voters disagree with your view on this. So tough shit. It's just an attorney. You can live it them getting access to an attorney.

We don't govern by polling.

No but voters have massive influence in what politicians do. It's the basis of the system.

Mistwell

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2022, 02:00:36 PM »
When you don't allow illegals to enter to begin with

Good luck with that.

Kiero

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2022, 02:28:25 PM »
No but voters have massive influence in what politicians do. It's the basis of the system.

Hahahaha! This is quite possibly the most naive drivel I've seen on this forum.
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Bruwulf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2022, 02:57:53 PM »
No but voters have massive influence in what politicians do. It's the basis of the system.

Not really. Voters have massive influence on what politicians say they will do. That's not at all the same thing.

And that's assuming poling is accurate, a dubious proposition at best.

Kiero

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2022, 03:19:36 PM »
Not really. Voters have massive influence on what politicians say they will do. That's not at all the same thing.

And that's assuming poling is accurate, a dubious proposition at best.

Polling is designed to shape public opinion, not measure it.
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3catcircus

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2022, 03:29:57 PM »
When you don't allow illegals to enter to begin with

Good luck with that.

It requires nothing more than the political will to enforce the law and the resources to do it. Other countries manage to do this with no problem.

We could easily divert funding from the 35 identical social programs to promote transgender story hour for 5 year olds administered by a dozen different federal agencies - take that money and build fences, staff patrols, and build holding pens.

Instead, we get leftists in government and media decrying CBP agents on horseback rounding up illegals because they see reins being properly used to control horses and can't not think that they're whipping black people.  They make it about racism because they'd otherwise have to confront the fact that their agenda results in cruelty by border patrol of other countries like Mexico and Honduras or coyotes or drug cartels on the journey to the US.

When Dems don't virtue signal that "the border is open," economic migrants don't risk life and limb.

But you want to continue being cruel to poor brown people.

Mistwell

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #96 on: November 24, 2022, 03:35:29 PM »
When you don't allow illegals to enter to begin with

Good luck with that.

It requires nothing more than the political will to enforce the law and the resources to do it. Other countries manage to do this with no problem.

So why did Trump fail at it?

Also noteworthy - other countries usually don't attract as many people to them. YOU may not believe in the American Dream but many do. It's really quite easy to keep people out of Venezuela when people don't want to emigrate there.

jhkim

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2022, 07:07:31 PM »
You sort of ignore the political violence of 2020 riots which saw 25 people killed, thousands injured and billions of dollars in damages
while the worst violence of the 1968 riots which saw 39 people killed, thousands injured, and less damage.
They are quite comparable.

The 1968 riots after MLK's assassination was just one piece of violence of the 1960s, though. The summer 1967 race riots killed at least 85 people across dozens of cities. There were the 1964 Watts riots that had 34 deaths. There were dozens of other major riot incidents throughout the 1960s.

There were also a string of assassinations including JFK, MLK, and other notable figures. There was the Kent State shooting (technically in 1970 but clearly part of the period). Domestic terrorist groups including the KKK and others were highly active.
I was comparing the worst year of the 60's to the worst of the 20's.  And we've got 7 years to make the rest of the 60's look like child's play.

I don't think that the worst race riots of a decade are a good measure of overall political violence. The U.S. has periodically had race riots since the early 1800s. Notably, the 1992 L.A. riots after the Rodney King verdict had 63 deaths, which is a much higher body count than either the 1968 or 2020 riots. However, I wouldn't say that the 1990s were the decade with the most political violence.

Trying to compare apples to apples, I think the period of 1962 to 1972 had much greater political violence than the period from 2012 to 2022. Obviously, future developments in the 2020s could change the picture - but I think the record so far shows significantly less violence in the current period.

3catcircus

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2022, 09:25:53 PM »
When you don't allow illegals to enter to begin with

Good luck with that.

It requires nothing more than the political will to enforce the law and the resources to do it. Other countries manage to do this with no problem.

So why did Trump fail at it?

Also noteworthy - other countries usually don't attract as many people to them. YOU may not believe in the American Dream but many do. It's really quite easy to keep people out of Venezuela when people don't want to emigrate there.

Who says he failed? When he was in office, illegal immigration declined because of the deterrent effect of not just letting them in without even trying to keep them out.

As to your assertion that "we get so many that we shouldn't even bother trying to control our borders" - how about go fuck yourself.  By that attitude, you should en masse encourage every homeless drug addict in Cali to come and walk in your front door, rape your wife, and steal all your worldly possessions - while you pay them and give them room and board to do so. After all, if enough random strangers show up, why bother locking your front door, right?

The Spaniard

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2022, 10:44:14 AM »
There won't be any reconciliation.  That requires compromise and finding common ground.  It's increasingly difficult to even speak with progressives, let alone find common ground.  They continue to push the ridiculous which further alienates those that should be considered "moderate".

3catcircus

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2022, 12:48:36 PM »
There won't be any reconciliation.  That requires compromise and finding common ground.  It's increasingly difficult to even speak with progressives, let alone find common ground.  They continue to push the ridiculous which further alienates those that should be considered "moderate".

I'll continue saying it. We're at where we're at because we conservatives have been overly-tolerant. If a few more Marxist college professors had been drafted to go fight in Vietnam, they'd likely *not* be Marxists when they returned. Instead we allowed them to proliferate on college campuses and spread their disease to multiple generations of college students.

The same goes for tolerance in the public square - a few more leftists leaving a "rally" with a broken nose or missing a tooth and we wouldn't be here dealing with antifa terrorists.

Civility in the face of leftist tyranny is nothing more than cowardice.


The Spaniard

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #101 on: November 25, 2022, 01:14:53 PM »
There won't be any reconciliation.  That requires compromise and finding common ground.  It's increasingly difficult to even speak with progressives, let alone find common ground.  They continue to push the ridiculous which further alienates those that should be considered "moderate".

I'll continue saying it. We're at where we're at because we conservatives have been overly-tolerant. If a few more Marxist college professors had been drafted to go fight in Vietnam, they'd likely *not* be Marxists when they returned. Instead we allowed them to proliferate on college campuses and spread their disease to multiple generations of college students.

The same goes for tolerance in the public square - a few more leftists leaving a "rally" with a broken nose or missing a tooth and we wouldn't be here dealing with antifa terrorists.

Civility in the face of leftist tyranny is nothing more than cowardice.

Agreed, except for the last part.  I think it's apathy rather than cowardice in most cases.  We're all busy doing other things, and just take the time to shake our heads at these mutts instead of taking the time to confront them.

DocJones

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2022, 01:26:11 PM »
I don't think that the worst race riots of a decade are a good measure of overall political violence.
No you don't get to take the 2020 race riots off the table as they are overtly political.
The 2020 riots were fanned, funded and owned by white leftists.




jhkim

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #103 on: November 25, 2022, 02:39:16 PM »
I don't think that the worst race riots of a decade are a good measure of overall political violence.
No you don't get to take the 2020 race riots off the table as they are overtly political.
The 2020 riots were fanned, funded and owned by white leftists.

Is your claim that the 2020 race riots were political, but the 1992 race riots and 1968 race riots were not?

If not, I don't see how this bears on the relation between the overall political violence of the last ten years compared to the 1960s.

In general, my point is that there were high levels of political violence in the period of 1962 to 1972, greater than in the past decade. We had a lot of extremism, terrorism, and assassination. However, we got through that and continued to function as a democracy, without any movement towards civil war. I think "de-escalation" is probably a better word for the later trend rather than "reconciliation", but the point is that the levels of political violence and extremism reduced.

Mistwell

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2022, 02:52:42 PM »
When you don't allow illegals to enter to begin with

Good luck with that.

It requires nothing more than the political will to enforce the law and the resources to do it. Other countries manage to do this with no problem.

So why did Trump fail at it?

Also noteworthy - other countries usually don't attract as many people to them. YOU may not believe in the American Dream but many do. It's really quite easy to keep people out of Venezuela when people don't want to emigrate there.

Who says he failed? When he was in office, illegal immigration declined because of the deterrent effect of not just letting them in without even trying to keep them out.

As to your assertion that "we get so many that we shouldn't even bother trying to control our borders" - how about go fuck yourself.  By that attitude, you should en masse encourage every homeless drug addict in Cali to come and walk in your front door, rape your wife, and steal all your worldly possessions - while you pay them and give them room and board to do so. After all, if enough random strangers show up, why bother locking your front door, right?

There is zero implication we shouldn't try to stop illegal immigration because we get so many people trying to come here.

Even for you that was a moronic conclusion to draw.

Under Trump he had the political will to stop illegal immigration but he largely failed to stop it. He slightly slowed it for some years at best. So it takes more than mere will and it is harder to do for a nation like the US where lots of people want to come here than it is for a nation where few want to go there.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 02:54:27 PM by Mistwell »