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Author Topic: Reconciliation  (Read 40366 times)

Bruwulf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #180 on: December 06, 2022, 01:32:20 PM »
Then accept that you and everyone you love who doesn't betray you will lose, suffer and die and the winners will write in the history books that you were a monster who deserved what you got.

So you're saying being principled means betraying my principles. Got it.

There's a thing called picking your battles and not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good (or less bad in this case). The Left has been moving the needle for a hundred years and we've hit the existential crisis level. You can't clean that up overnight... its going to take years (decades realistically) pushing back in the other direction to fix it. The only question in terms of politicians these days is "which side sucks less.".

Yeah. Hence why I vote for for Republicans, despite often having problems with the Republican party. Because I'm willing to swallow my pride and vote for people I often find to be spineless tools, because the alternative is worse. But I won't become everything I despise to win, either. So I'm not going to act like some Gen-Z twitter cancel-culture fuckwit just because they make it work.

You push the needle by getting involved in the primaries and pushing for best candidate both there and in the general and take the ground back inch by inch just like they took it inch by inch.

Yeah, I do this, or at least I did when I lived in Michigan. Where I live now is so deep red a good chunk of Republicans could stay home and it wouldn't matter.

The Republican establishment sucks ass, but we allied with the Soviets to take down the Nazis... and the deck is so stacked against third parties that a hostile takeover of Republican Inc. (both parties are corporations... and if not for all the judges belonging to them could probably be sued for anti-trust collusion) is the most viable battle strategy at the moment. There are thousands of open positions that can affect that... I signed up for one unoccupied precinct position this last election and now I have a vote in the corporate outcomes; if everyone disgusted with the direction of the country did the same we could actually make real changes... but most just want to whine about it on social media (or here) rather than actually do something about it.

Unfortunately, what I fear is going to happen is that in the process of trying to turn the party in a different direction, it winds up splitting. Because that's going to fuck everything up. I was hoping the Democrat party would split, for a while, but I massively over-estimated the amount of free thought in the party. But whichever party splits first - and one of them will, sooner or later - is going to be absolutely fucked for all eternity.

Bruwulf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #181 on: December 06, 2022, 01:39:09 PM »
Being against the death penalty is not moderate or liberal.  Its common sense.  Death penalty as the USA uses it does not discourage crime nor is it cost effective.  As for any one’s vote…that ship has sailed.

You might be surprised how many people have implied I'm a liberal pussy because of my views on that subject, then.

squirewaldo

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #182 on: December 06, 2022, 02:14:09 PM »
Hi everyone!
As someone who is an immigrant to America, and a bit of an "outsider" politically speaking (I still can't vote), it's hard not to notice the simmering hatred the two political sides have for each other. This also makes political compromises less and less tenable, and leads to breakdown of cooperation. To me, views like "this can only lead to civil war, there's no way back now" aren't helping. Do you see any way of bridging the gap between the factions? I have a couple of thoughts off the top of my head, and I think some admissions have to be made on either side, but I'll see what you guys think first.

There is hope but very little. The USA was never a unified country in a cultural way. It was a collection of different people with different backgrounds who agreed to disagree as long as the other side actually showed tolerance -- that is leave each other alone. As the more and more immigrants came to the USA those differences only increased. Which is fine as long as there is that core value of mutual tolerance. That no longer exists. The Left in this country, and some on the right, no longer are willing to allow those people who disagree with them to live their lives in peace as they see fit.

There is only one way for that to end. Well maybe two... if the USA can restore the 'federalism' that was the basis of its foundation maybe people could get back to living their lives the way they want to, and leaving the rest alone. I don't see that happening.

So there will be war. In fact I believe we are already at war. Only one side is fighting and the other side deludes themselves into thinking things can be worked out. Wars only end when one side is defeated, or when both sides form into mutually hostile but separate camps.

David Johansen

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #183 on: December 06, 2022, 02:45:39 PM »
In principle I'm pro death penalty.  That killer's life isn't worth more than their next vicitm.  In practice, I don't trust the government enough to allow it.  Nor should anyone.

A civil war would certainly put an end to America as a world power or a nation of any consequence.  Maybe that's good, maybe it's bad.  If things are as bad as some seem to think, the time to fight is now.  Otherwise, they'll round you up before you ever get around to it based on your internet posts.
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Trond

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #184 on: December 06, 2022, 04:36:10 PM »
If things are as bad as some seem to think, the time to fight is now.  Otherwise, they'll round you up before you ever get around to it based on your internet posts.

Exactly, except of course, they won't. They are a bunch of keyboard warriors. They know that if they actually fight they have already lost, particularly when considering that the moderates are also on the shit list, and that they themselves (the "warriors" here) aren't exactly unified either (also notice the chaotic bunch that was the Jan 6 crowd)  ;D 

squirewaldo

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #185 on: December 06, 2022, 04:52:24 PM »
If things are as bad as some seem to think, the time to fight is now.  Otherwise, they'll round you up before you ever get around to it based on your internet posts.

Exactly, except of course, they won't. They are a bunch of keyboard warriors. They know that if they actually fight they have already lost, particularly when considering that the moderates are also on the shit list, and that they themselves (the "warriors" here) aren't exactly unified either (also notice the chaotic bunch that was the Jan 6 crowd)  ;D

So we should all should live in fear? I must admit there are way too many keyboard warriors talking about things they don't understand. All these guys who have never been in a fist fight talking about how they are going to go down shooting with a hot empty gun in their cold dead hands. Fighting and killing is hard; most cannot do it. Most likely they will end up being taken away whimpering and crying.

But I think it is just a matter of time. They are going to come after us brave or not. Armed or not. Guilty or not. Indeed, look at the Jan 6th crowd... at worst trespass. That is a misdemeanor -- $150 fine and 30 days in jail. No weapons, no violence. And yet almost 2 years on and they are still in solitary confinement being denied legal representation, basic human rights, etc. Why? Because they scared powerful and evil people.

Chris24601

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #186 on: December 06, 2022, 04:55:35 PM »
Then accept that you and everyone you love who doesn't betray you will lose, suffer and die and the winners will write in the history books that you were a monster who deserved what you got.

So you're saying being principled means betraying my principles. Got it.
What principles do you feel you'd be violating by working with "the army you have" instead of holding out for "the army you want" in order to not have those you love suffer and die?

There's a basic principle that's "don't go borrowing tomorrow's problems when you're dealing with today's."

You don't worry about what you'll become if you kill a man when that man has a knife to your kid's throat. You just do what you think is best to save your kid from the madman with the knife and worry about the rest after you've saved your kid. The very fact that you worry about becoming those things is largely a sign that you won't become those things while doing what's necessary to protect others from harm.

Trond

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #187 on: December 06, 2022, 05:02:28 PM »
If things are as bad as some seem to think, the time to fight is now.  Otherwise, they'll round you up before you ever get around to it based on your internet posts.

Exactly, except of course, they won't. They are a bunch of keyboard warriors. They know that if they actually fight they have already lost, particularly when considering that the moderates are also on the shit list, and that they themselves (the "warriors" here) aren't exactly unified either (also notice the chaotic bunch that was the Jan 6 crowd)  ;D

So we should all should live in fear? I must admit there are way too many keyboard warriors talking about things they don't understand. All these guys who have never been in a fist fight talking about how they are going to go down shooting with a hot empty gun in their cold dead hands. Fighting and killing is hard; most cannot do it. Most likely they will end up being taken away whimpering and crying.

But I think it is just a matter of time. They are going to come after us brave or not. Armed or not. Guilty or not. Indeed, look at the Jan 6th crowd... at worst trespass. That is a misdemeanor -- $150 fine and 30 days in jail. No weapons, no violence. And yet almost 2 years on and they are still in solitary confinement being denied legal representation, basic human rights, etc. Why? Because they scared powerful and evil people.

Win elections again. Judging from what I see around me, the right had a lot of sympathy before the last midterm election, but then they also lost a LOT of momentum because of the abortion issue. I magine all the women who already had an abortion just going "nope".

Still, notice how just a little win in the midterm started to change things away from the woke narrative everywhere.

Brad

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #188 on: December 06, 2022, 05:15:10 PM »
Win elections again. Judging from what I see around me, the right had a lot of sympathy before the last midterm election, but then they also lost a LOT of momentum because of the abortion issue. I magine all the women who already had an abortion just going "nope".

The 19th Amendment was a mistake.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Bruwulf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #189 on: December 06, 2022, 06:12:16 PM »
What principles do you feel you'd be violating by working with "the army you have" instead of holding out for "the army you want" in order to not have those you love suffer and die?

There's a basic principle that's "don't go borrowing tomorrow's problems when you're dealing with today's."

You don't worry about what you'll become if you kill a man when that man has a knife to your kid's throat. You just do what you think is best to save your kid from the madman with the knife and worry about the rest after you've saved your kid. The very fact that you worry about becoming those things is largely a sign that you won't become those things while doing what's necessary to protect others from harm.

I'm not worried about what I'll become. I'm worried about what happens when a group that fights by being illogical, silencing, anti-free-speech assholes... continues to be illogical, silencing, anti-free-speech assholes after they win, instead of magically turning into freedom-loving rational actors.

But what are the chances of that?

Zelen

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #190 on: December 06, 2022, 06:43:38 PM »
What principles do you feel you'd be violating by working with "the army you have" instead of holding out for "the army you want" in order to not have those you love suffer and die?

There's a basic principle that's "don't go borrowing tomorrow's problems when you're dealing with today's."

You don't worry about what you'll become if you kill a man when that man has a knife to your kid's throat. You just do what you think is best to save your kid from the madman with the knife and worry about the rest after you've saved your kid. The very fact that you worry about becoming those things is largely a sign that you won't become those things while doing what's necessary to protect others from harm.

I'm not worried about what I'll become. I'm worried about what happens when a group that fights by being illogical, silencing, anti-free-speech assholes... continues to be illogical, silencing, anti-free-speech assholes after they win, instead of magically turning into freedom-loving rational actors.

But what are the chances of that?

The US Founding Fathers were perfectly okay with killing British people & mercenaries who invaded their homes and tried to subjugate them. They weren't friendly towards Crown sympathizers either. They didn't worry if their enemies thought about them as "illogical, silencing, anti-free-speech assholes."

You sincerely have a very weird and rosy picture about the past, as well as a misunderstanding of real politics. The people who ascend to the top of power structures are almost always assholes, because that's the type of person who craves power. There's a real difference between what the US has now -- an illegitimate regime of assholes who crave power and want to hurt Americans -- versus a legitimate government full of assholes who crave power and want to help Americans.

It isn't surprising that the US revolutionaries (keep in mind, that the Revolutionary war was only fought by ~5% of the US population) fought like devils and yet turned around and made a good government. They wanted the country they were ruling to flourish.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 06:52:50 PM by Zelen »

Bruwulf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #191 on: December 06, 2022, 07:42:06 PM »
The US Founding Fathers were perfectly okay with killing British people & mercenaries who invaded their homes and tried to subjugate them. They weren't friendly towards Crown sympathizers either. They didn't worry if their enemies thought about them as "illogical, silencing, anti-free-speech assholes."

Then go out there and get killing.

Oh, I'm sorry. Is "a hot war and a social struggle are different situations" too controversial of a statement?

You sincerely have a very weird and rosy picture about the past, as well as a misunderstanding of real politics. The people who ascend to the top of power structures are almost always assholes, because that's the type of person who craves power. There's a real difference between what the US has now -- an illegitimate regime of assholes who crave power and want to hurt Americans -- versus a legitimate government full of assholes who crave power and want to help Americans.

No. Because I disagree with your conclusion doesn't mean I don't understand your premise. I agree that the people who seek power are rarely the ones we would really want to have it, but that having been acknowledged, I choose to pick which sorts of excesses and assholishness I support.

It isn't surprising that the US revolutionaries (keep in mind, that the Revolutionary war was only fought by ~5% of the US population) fought like devils and yet turned around and made a good government. They wanted the country they were ruling to flourish.

Yeah, but also, no. You are not George Washington. What he and his compatriots did doesn't make me more likely to trust Timmy the Keyboard Warrior.

Zelen

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #192 on: December 06, 2022, 08:48:46 PM »
Then go out there and get killing.

Who advocated that? Strawmanning isn't productive and doesn't make you cool.

It isn't surprising that the US revolutionaries (keep in mind, that the Revolutionary war was only fought by ~5% of the US population) fought like devils and yet turned around and made a good government. They wanted the country they were ruling to flourish.

Yeah, but also, no. You are not George Washington. What he and his compatriots did doesn't make me more likely to trust Timmy the Keyboard Warrior.

Sincerely, the strawmanning is boring. I've simply been pointing out the reality of where the US (& Europe/Australia) are.

Bruwulf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #193 on: December 06, 2022, 08:55:34 PM »

Sincerely, the strawmanning is boring. I've simply been pointing out the reality of wher the US (& Europe/Australia) are.

You're the one bringing up armed revolution, not me. If I'm strawmanning, I'm filling the clothes you gave me with the straw you also gave me.

Zelen

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #194 on: December 06, 2022, 09:03:01 PM »

Sincerely, the strawmanning is boring. I've simply been pointing out the reality of wher the US (& Europe/Australia) are.

You're the one bringing up armed revolution, not me. If I'm strawmanning, I'm filling the clothes you gave me with the straw you also gave me.

How is it strawmanning to use a historical example that demonstrates the flaw in the thesis that "assholes" won't magically turn into "freedom-loving rational actors" after they win?