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Author Topic: Reconciliation  (Read 3650 times)

Trond

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Reconciliation
« on: November 18, 2022, 11:14:01 AM »
Hi everyone!
As someone who is an immigrant to America, and a bit of an "outsider" politically speaking (I still can't vote), it's hard not to notice the simmering hatred the two political sides have for each other. This also makes political compromises less and less tenable, and leads to breakdown of cooperation. To me, views like "this can only lead to civil war, there's no way back now" aren't helping. Do you see any way of bridging the gap between the factions? I have a couple of thoughts off the top of my head, and I think some admissions have to be made on either side, but I'll see what you guys think first.

 

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2022, 05:27:15 PM »
I'm not an American and unable to directly participate, so my own thoughts are perhaps no more helpful than yours. Nonetheless, I think there are a couple of things to bear in mind.

- It is worth remembering that the "simmering hatred" being perceived is in large part (though not wholly) a product of online interactions and discussions. There are communities and situations where that hostility is real, direct and personal against other people personally known by their real names and faces, but they are less numerous and widespread than one might expect going by the 'Net. Therefore, one action that might help minimize this effect would be to try to keep one's political interactions, where possible, on the local and personal level. Get involved in local school boards and town halls. If nothing else, this makes it clear exactly how opinions are really distributed.

- Try to understand what an antagonistic individual or group really wants by whatever they're declaring their "victory conditions": if what they ultimately want is protections for a particular group, can those protections be achieved by a solution you can both live with, if it's not their preferred one? It may be possible to come to productive compromises that way. (This is not always practical because people are not always honest about this, either to opponents, allies, or even themselves, but if compromise is possible this is usually a critical step.)

- Be willing to accept that compromise is the art of managing disappointment. This is one point where I see, perhaps, the Left being a little too stubborn about rejecting this and the Right being a little too quick to accept it, which is one reason the conflict has continued without finding productive resolution either way.
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Zelen

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2022, 05:42:32 PM »
Do you see any way of bridging the gap between the factions?

No, there isn't. One faction wants to create a global system of perpetual human degradation & slavery. This can't coexist with any other philosophy or ideology.

Trond

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2022, 06:06:10 PM »
I'm not an American and unable to directly participate, so my own thoughts are perhaps no more helpful than yours. Nonetheless, I think there are a couple of things to bear in mind.

- It is worth remembering that the "simmering hatred" being perceived is in large part (though not wholly) a product of online interactions and discussions. There are communities and situations where that hostility is real, direct and personal against other people personally known by their real names and faces, but they are less numerous and widespread than one might expect going by the 'Net. Therefore, one action that might help minimize this effect would be to try to keep one's political interactions, where possible, on the local and personal level. Get involved in local school boards and town halls. If nothing else, this makes it clear exactly how opinions are really distributed.

- Try to understand what an antagonistic individual or group really wants by whatever they're declaring their "victory conditions": if what they ultimately want is protections for a particular group, can those protections be achieved by a solution you can both live with, if it's not their preferred one? It may be possible to come to productive compromises that way. (This is not always practical because people are not always honest about this, either to opponents, allies, or even themselves, but if compromise is possible this is usually a critical step.)

- Be willing to accept that compromise is the art of managing disappointment. This is one point where I see, perhaps, the Left being a little too stubborn about rejecting this and the Right being a little too quick to accept it, which is one reason the conflict has continued without finding productive resolution either way.

Those are pretty good points.

Kiero

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2022, 07:08:35 PM »
Online discussions can have real-world consequences when hate mobs are mobilised to cancel people. Pressure on employers can result in people losing their jobs, doxxing can put them and their families at risk. There isn't a nice and clean division between online and offline, where things happening in one don't affect the other.
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jhkim

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2022, 07:15:35 PM »
Hi everyone!
As someone who is an immigrant to America, and a bit of an "outsider" politically speaking (I still can't vote), it's hard not to notice the simmering hatred the two political sides have for each other. This also makes political compromises less and less tenable, and leads to breakdown of cooperation. To me, views like "this can only lead to civil war, there's no way back now" aren't helping. Do you see any way of bridging the gap between the factions? I have a couple of thoughts off the top of my head, and I think some admissions have to be made on either side, but I'll see what you guys think first.

I suspect we are approaching but have not yet hit peak partisanship. The first step is going to be people disengaging from social media. There are a lot of people in a state of perpetual outrage over what the other side is doing, based on their social media feeds - which are tailored because outrage is the best way to get people to click on links.

The perpetual outrage can only hold for so long, though. I think as we adapt to the technology, there will be more significant pushback against it.

As people are less controlled by clickbait outrage, partisanship will lessen - though of course there will still be serious political divide as there has always been in this country.

David Johansen

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2022, 10:00:37 PM »
Hopefully, at some point some well respected, important, and popular people will stand up to the psychos on both sides of the aisle  and people will start shouting, "but he has nothing on at all," and things will start to settle down.  That's what it took to break down Mcarthyism and it's what it will take to bring back some normalicy to political discourse.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2022, 12:46:41 AM »
Hi everyone!
As someone who is an immigrant to America, and a bit of an "outsider" politically speaking (I still can't vote), it's hard not to notice the simmering hatred the two political sides have for each other. This also makes political compromises less and less tenable, and leads to breakdown of cooperation. To me, views like "this can only lead to civil war, there's no way back now" aren't helping. Do you see any way of bridging the gap between the factions? I have a couple of thoughts off the top of my head, and I think some admissions have to be made on either side, but I'll see what you guys think first.

No.
Both sides have a vested interest in the other side being THE ULTIMATE EVIL. It's only going to grind on and get worse, and anyone who tries to calm things down or provide a sane alternative won't get as much attention and get pushed to the sidelines.
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jeff37923

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2022, 05:25:05 AM »
Hi everyone!
As someone who is an immigrant to America, and a bit of an "outsider" politically speaking (I still can't vote), it's hard not to notice the simmering hatred the two political sides have for each other. This also makes political compromises less and less tenable, and leads to breakdown of cooperation. To me, views like "this can only lead to civil war, there's no way back now" aren't helping. Do you see any way of bridging the gap between the factions? I have a couple of thoughts off the top of my head, and I think some admissions have to be made on either side, but I'll see what you guys think first.

I don't think compromise is possible.

Recent event/anecdotal evidence.

There was a burlesque and drag show at Tennessee Tech recently. A video of the show has been circulating of minors (like under 8 years old) attending and encouraged to give tips to the drag queens on stage. A lot of people didn't like that. This has caused the TN legislation to create TN SB 3, which adds language to already existing laws to make it illegal for minors to attend burlesque performances or drag shows. Now, I've helped put on both kinds of shows for a couple of years and we did not ever have a problem like this, because we were never stupid enough to allow children to attend the shows.

When I voiced this opinion to some close friends who did shows with me that I have known for decades, I became a pariah and told that I wasn't wanted around. End of friendships.

To achieve a compromise, you have to be dealing with rational people. This current crop of woke activists just isn't rational IMHO. I mean not having children attend a sexualized performance and making a video of it is a no-brainer to me.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 05:28:42 AM by jeff37923 »
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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2022, 03:52:04 PM »
Do you see any way of bridging the gap between the factions?

No.  The gap was only closed after the first Civil War because one side utterly crushed the other and then imposed its will on the defeated people.  It would either take that (and I think a military left vs. right conflict incredibly unlikely) or a peaceful separation.  I don't know why so many people are wedded to the idea of the U.S. staying together so strongly.  Countries have broken apart all through history, but the people themselves are usually still there.  The Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Persian Empire -- most of the people/nationalities that lived under those governments are still around, they just aren't forced to live together "united" under a central government that most of them don't like.

People are used to thinking of the U.S. as a young country, but it actually has one of the oldest governments on earth.  There are very few countries on earth still operating under the same constitution and form of government they had two hundred and fifty years ago.  Splitting the country up and letting people live with people they agree with and under a government that they approve of is not a bad thing.  The U.S. colonies only united in the face of a common threat, and they all compromised in order to unify in the face of that common threat.  But that common threat doesn't exist anymore.  I feel that a strong, overreaching central U.S. government -- with its fear-mongering, lying, and media manipulating ways -- is the biggest threat we face today.  It's better to split up and maintain ties of trade and mutual defense as separate countries than it is to stay together as one country with our fellow countrymen as our most hated enemies.

3catcircus

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2022, 07:35:47 PM »
There can be no compromise. If you're for sexualizing children, allowing completely unrestrained illegal immigration, and throwing good money after bad on countries that hate the US, you're complete anti-American and should be killed.

I would have zero problems with an insurgency that killed off leftists.  The problem, however, is that humans can't just stop, they have to find "the next" and it turns into the French Revolution.  We *already* see this from leftists who find "-ist" behavior where it doesn't exist because they have to have some form of commie struggle.

That having been said, one would *hope* that an insurgency by conservatives (not neocons) and combat vets would be well-regulated.

Trond

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2022, 09:04:12 PM »
-To the right wing first, you have to realize that Trump is a divisive figure, quite possibly too divisive. Even if you agree with his ideas, it shouldn't be hard to realize that the guy rubs A LOT of people the wrong way, even a good chunk of traditionally conservative people (though anyone who is able to study the guy vs the perception of him for a few minutes also knows he is very often misrepresented, taken out of context, or simply misquoted too. But this is made easy by Trump himself who often blurts out divisive statements). There are also some odd clashes in philosophy; e.g. between focus on Christianity (which tends to ignore other faiths), and at the same time religious freedom (sometimes seeming contradictory), claiming to be more scientific (e.g. with gender/sex) and at the same time ignoring science when it is convenient (both sides do this, but the right has the history of ignoring evolution in the past, and very few conservative politicians even mention conservation of nature at all). Keep in mind; many leftists are just under the impression that blacks and women (and trans people etc) are being treated much worse than what actually seems to be the case (according to people on the right), and they have been bombarded with this “information” on a daily basis for years. 

-To the left, the demonizing of the right has gone way too far. Disagreement does not justify all the disruption we've seen coming from the left (in my perception the left is currently more violent than the right, feel free to disagree, but this is at the very least the case in my own neighborhood). A lot of the "anti-racism", "feminism", "LGBTQblahblah" comes across as pettiness and passive aggressiveness at best and open aggression at worst, and a lot of it clashes with common sense (also pointed out by some leftists, like Bill Maher). A lot of the criticisms against Trump were plainly made up. Keep in mind that some conservatives will agree to some gradual tweaking of the system, but not wholesale “tear it all down and build it up again” (I have a leftist friend who seriously suggested this). Also keep in mind that some of the “deplorable” Trump supporters and gun enthusiasts are also capable of what you see in this video (I know for a fact that the guy in the video who gets shot in the leg is a Trump supporter): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-hQlGmcfDE&t=58s

Tait Ransom

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2022, 09:49:37 PM »
Do you see any way of bridging the gap between the factions?

Not anymore.  For the longest time, I believed progressives had things in common with me.  I thought we both wanted the best for the most people, and we simply disagreed on what that was.

That was before some colleagues - who I’ve never met and don’t work where I do - didn’t like a meme I posted and contacted my boss to accuse me of being racist and try to get me fired.

They don’t think we’re wrong, they think we’re EVIL, so anything they do to us is warranted.  I was foolish to think otherwise, but no more.  War.

My progressive friends get the benefit of the doubt, thanks to years of friendship.  All the new ones I meet are presumed enemies unless they prove otherwise.

Ocule

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2022, 10:11:37 PM »
Hi everyone!
As someone who is an immigrant to America, and a bit of an "outsider" politically speaking (I still can't vote), it's hard not to notice the simmering hatred the two political sides have for each other. This also makes political compromises less and less tenable, and leads to breakdown of cooperation. To me, views like "this can only lead to civil war, there's no way back now" aren't helping. Do you see any way of bridging the gap between the factions? I have a couple of thoughts off the top of my head, and I think some admissions have to be made on either side, but I'll see what you guys think first.

I think a lot of us who aren't on the left, that doesn't mean right necessarily, have had this thought. I've given up, they don't want compromise or harmony or even to understand what the rest of us actually want. It's a cult, they aren't allowed by their own to understand the people they oppose. As a party they want absolute control over the whole country and everyone in it. They have no founding principles or even a consistent ideology, their organizers act with the simple goal of amassing power and influence using the mob as a bludgeon to get it.

At this point im done making compromises the issues they want us to submit to (they wont take compromise) aren't something any of us are willing to compromise on. Freedom of speech and right to bare arms are the two things they attack to the most and neither one is negotiable. What we need isnt compromise, it's a mass deprogramming of the weaponized delusions of the left.

-To the right wing first, you have to realize that Trump is a divisive figure, quite possibly too divisive. Even if you agree with his ideas, it shouldn't be hard to realize that the guy rubs A LOT of people the wrong way, even a good chunk of traditionally conservative people (though anyone who is able to study the guy vs the perception of him for a few minutes also knows he is very often misrepresented, taken out of context, or simply misquoted too. But this is made easy by Trump himself who often blurts out divisive statements). There are also some odd clashes in philosophy; e.g. between focus on Christianity (which tends to ignore other faiths), and at the same time religious freedom (sometimes seeming contradictory), claiming to be more scientific (e.g. with gender/sex) and at the same time ignoring science when it is convenient (both sides do this, but the right has the history of ignoring evolution in the past, and very few conservative politicians even mention conservation of nature at all). Keep in mind; many leftists are just under the impression that blacks and women (and trans people etc) are being treated much worse than what actually seems to be the case (according to people on the right), and they have been bombarded with this “information” on a daily basis for years. 

-To the left, the demonizing of the right has gone way too far. Disagreement does not justify all the disruption we've seen coming from the left (in my perception the left is currently more violent than the right, feel free to disagree, but this is at the very least the case in my own neighborhood). A lot of the "anti-racism", "feminism", "LGBTQblahblah" comes across as pettiness and passive aggressiveness at best and open aggression at worst, and a lot of it clashes with common sense (also pointed out by some leftists, like Bill Maher). A lot of the criticisms against Trump were plainly made up. Keep in mind that some conservatives will agree to some gradual tweaking of the system, but not wholesale “tear it all down and build it up again” (I have a leftist friend who seriously suggested this). Also keep in mind that some of the “deplorable” Trump supporters and gun enthusiasts are also capable of what you see in this video (I know for a fact that the guy in the video who gets shot in the leg is a Trump supporter): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-hQlGmcfDE&t=58s


Trump isn't really the issue, if it's not Trump it's De Santis or Ted Cruz or Abbot. They paint all of them with the same brush, so we can swap names and faces but no matter who the right puts forward it's still "Trump."


The one saving grace of this whole situation is the people i meet in real life are nowhere near as deranged as those we see making these policies or appearing on the news. I can count on one hand the number of people I've met Irl that were so far gone that common sense has left the building. I had one girl ask me if she charged me with a pair of scissors if I'd still shoot her because I don't know what she really intends. The look on her face when I told her I'd ventilate her and never lose any sleep over it was priceless. Like it was just beyond her that someone would have a response like that.

What we have here isn't left vs right anymore, this is closer to mass hysteria
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Trond

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Re: Reconciliation
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2022, 10:25:15 PM »
Hi everyone!
As someone who is an immigrant to America, and a bit of an "outsider" politically speaking (I still can't vote), it's hard not to notice the simmering hatred the two political sides have for each other. This also makes political compromises less and less tenable, and leads to breakdown of cooperation. To me, views like "this can only lead to civil war, there's no way back now" aren't helping. Do you see any way of bridging the gap between the factions? I have a couple of thoughts off the top of my head, and I think some admissions have to be made on either side, but I'll see what you guys think first.

I think a lot of us who aren't on the left, that doesn't mean right necessarily, have had this thought. I've given up, they don't want compromise or harmony or even to understand what the rest of us actually want. It's a cult, they aren't allowed by their own to understand the people they oppose. As a party they want absolute control over the whole country and everyone in it. They have no founding principles or even a consistent ideology, their organizers act with the simple goal of amassing power and influence using the mob as a bludgeon to get it.

At this point im done making compromises the issues they want us to submit to (they wont take compromise) aren't something any of us are willing to compromise on. Freedom of speech and right to bare arms are the two things they attack to the most and neither one is negotiable. What we need isnt compromise, it's a mass deprogramming of the weaponized delusions of the left.

-To the right wing first, you have to realize that Trump is a divisive figure, quite possibly too divisive. Even if you agree with his ideas, it shouldn't be hard to realize that the guy rubs A LOT of people the wrong way, even a good chunk of traditionally conservative people (though anyone who is able to study the guy vs the perception of him for a few minutes also knows he is very often misrepresented, taken out of context, or simply misquoted too. But this is made easy by Trump himself who often blurts out divisive statements). There are also some odd clashes in philosophy; e.g. between focus on Christianity (which tends to ignore other faiths), and at the same time religious freedom (sometimes seeming contradictory), claiming to be more scientific (e.g. with gender/sex) and at the same time ignoring science when it is convenient (both sides do this, but the right has the history of ignoring evolution in the past, and very few conservative politicians even mention conservation of nature at all). Keep in mind; many leftists are just under the impression that blacks and women (and trans people etc) are being treated much worse than what actually seems to be the case (according to people on the right), and they have been bombarded with this “information” on a daily basis for years. 

-To the left, the demonizing of the right has gone way too far. Disagreement does not justify all the disruption we've seen coming from the left (in my perception the left is currently more violent than the right, feel free to disagree, but this is at the very least the case in my own neighborhood). A lot of the "anti-racism", "feminism", "LGBTQblahblah" comes across as pettiness and passive aggressiveness at best and open aggression at worst, and a lot of it clashes with common sense (also pointed out by some leftists, like Bill Maher). A lot of the criticisms against Trump were plainly made up. Keep in mind that some conservatives will agree to some gradual tweaking of the system, but not wholesale “tear it all down and build it up again” (I have a leftist friend who seriously suggested this). Also keep in mind that some of the “deplorable” Trump supporters and gun enthusiasts are also capable of what you see in this video (I know for a fact that the guy in the video who gets shot in the leg is a Trump supporter): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-hQlGmcfDE&t=58s


Trump isn't really the issue, if it's not Trump it's De Santis or Ted Cruz or Abbot. They paint all of them with the same brush, so we can swap names and faces but no matter who the right puts forward it's still "Trump."


The one saving grace of this whole situation is the people i meet in real life are nowhere near as deranged as those we see making these policies or appearing on the news. I can count on one hand the number of people I've met Irl that were so far gone that common sense has left the building. I had one girl ask me if she charged me with a pair of scissors if I'd still shoot her because I don't know what she really intends. The look on her face when I told her I'd ventilate her and never lose any sleep over it was priceless. Like it was just beyond her that someone would have a response like that.

What we have here isn't left vs right anymore, this is closer to mass hysteria

First to the “given up” part. Yes some leftists don’t want compromise, at all. But also notice some of the responses here in this thread. Some of them seem unhinged to me, and no better or more helpful than some of the worst BS on the left. I hope people snap out of it of course but meanwhile; the “normal” people leaning left or right, like you also talk about here as a saving grace, are the ones I think we have to focus on. Some people haven’t even been in their faction very long; Trump and “Trumpism” made some conservatives shift more left, and wokeness has made certain leftists move more to the right.