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Author Topic: Pundy is Wrong, Blue Rose is Cool  (Read 11098 times)

Chivalric

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Pundy is Wrong, Blue Rose is Cool
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2015, 11:07:03 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;849091

The only campaign I played was a short campaign wasn't in the usual setting (envoys in Aldea), but instead was set in Jarzon - the theocracy next to Aldea. The unusual bit was that one of the PCs was actually a spy for Aldea - a Rhy-wolf disguised as a wolf-hound. The favorite bit was definitely the interactions with the wolf.

I played and ran a number of one-shots in Aldea, though, and many of the criticisms just don't make any sense.


I figured there must be something to be said for actually playing in the setting.  I could see a campaign that's a cross between the Aria anime and the Never Ending Story movie working really well (perhaps in tone more than content).

I would like to hear more about any particular one shot that stood out to you.  One shots are usually loaded with conflict, so what sort of things did you do in Aldea during these one shots?

Novastar

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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2015, 12:43:21 AM »
Quote from: Bren;848999
  • Pendragon, where the King Arthur and the Round Table are forces for good, redemption is possible, but the members are still fallible humans who occasionally screw up, you have Lancelot and his betrayal of Arthur and doomed romance with Guenivere and Mordred, who is a villain.
Emphasis mine.
One of the best Arthurian games I've ever been in, ran it completely different. Mordred, as the youngest brother of Gawain, has grown up his entire life hearing stories of Camelot and the Round Table, and is an honest, "goody-good" zealot. He discovers the affair between Lancelot and Guiniverre, and unlike his fellow knights (wise enough not to destroy the Kingdom), he pushes the King to live up to his ideals and commitments. It's Mordred's disillusionment with how the Knights he heard stories about all his life, in the face of "true betrayal", that cause him to rally younger, more idealistic knights to his banner, to oust Arthur and his "old men", seeking to truly create a Kingdom that lives up to the ideal of Camelot.

In a different age, Mordred would have been a hero; the problem was, that by his time, the only villains left were his peers, for the crime of being *slightly* less heroic than he.
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James Gillen

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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2015, 03:20:40 AM »
Quote from: Novastar;849138
Emphasis mine.
One of the best Arthurian games I've ever been in, ran it completely different. Mordred, as the youngest brother of Gawain, has grown up his entire life hearing stories of Camelot and the Round Table, and is an honest, "goody-good" zealot. He discovers the affair between Lancelot and Guiniverre, and unlike his fellow knights (wise enough not to destroy the Kingdom), he pushes the King to live up to his ideals and commitments. It's Mordred's disillusionment with how the Knights he heard stories about all his life, in the face of "true betrayal", that cause him to rally younger, more idealistic knights to his banner, to oust Arthur and his "old men", seeking to truly create a Kingdom that lives up to the ideal of Camelot.

In a different age, Mordred would have been a hero; the problem was, that by his time, the only villains left were his peers, for the crime of being *slightly* less heroic than he.


That is actually neat.

JG
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Christopher Brady

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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2015, 06:44:44 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;849091
This also makes no sense. In the background, the Golden Hart hasn't directly helped protect Aldis in over four centuries - since the Great Rebellion against the sorcerer kings. In all the wars since then, it never appeared.


And that's the problem.  The Blue Rose Kingdom with their newly elected queen, has no guile, no cunning and no willingness to understand that their foes are just waiting to pounce on them.  And given just how likely those two factions are described in the old RPG, it's only by Plot Armour that BR hasn't been crushed and divvied up like sandwiches on a platter.

Simply because the enemies are ruthless, murderous bastards that want nothing more than to crush them, and neither of them are of the 'Warlord' variety.  Meaning they'll use things like assassinations, sabotage and other tricks to weaken it.  There will be no brute force invasions until after their prey has been softened, which would likely end up in a two and half way war that would decimate all three kingdoms.

And the only reason they haven't done it?  Because of Plot Armour.  Sole reason, and I simply cannot reconcile that in my head.  It's either that, or that the other two factions are so 1960's Batman incompetent that they're living jokes, and no country can survive that.
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The Ent

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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2015, 07:53:36 AM »
Quote from: James Gillen;849170
That is actually neat.

JG


Agreed 110%, it's a great take and one I've never seen before!

apparition13

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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2015, 12:47:54 PM »
Quote from: Novastar;849138
Emphasis mine.
One of the best Arthurian games I've ever been in, ran it completely different. Mordred, as the youngest brother of Gawain, has grown up his entire life hearing stories of Camelot and the Round Table, and is an honest, "goody-good" zealot. He discovers the affair between Lancelot and Guiniverre, and unlike his fellow knights (wise enough not to destroy the Kingdom), he pushes the King to live up to his ideals and commitments. It's Mordred's disillusionment with how the Knights he heard stories about all his life, in the face of "true betrayal", that cause him to rally younger, more idealistic knights to his banner, to oust Arthur and his "old men", seeking to truly create a Kingdom that lives up to the ideal of Camelot.

In a different age, Mordred would have been a hero; the problem was, that by his time, the only villains left were his peers, for the crime of being *slightly* less heroic than he.

So he's the knightly equivalent of an SJW? A chivalric fundamentalist, if you will. Sounds like a particularly frustrating villain to deal with.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;849174
And that's the problem.  The Blue Rose Kingdom with their newly elected queen, has no guile, no cunning and no willingness to understand that their foes are just waiting to pounce on them.  And given just how likely those two factions are described in the old RPG, it's only by Plot Armour that BR hasn't been crushed and divvied up like sandwiches on a platter.

Simply because the enemies are ruthless, murderous bastards that want nothing more than to crush them, and neither of them are of the 'Warlord' variety.  Meaning they'll use things like assassinations, sabotage and other tricks to weaken it.  There will be no brute force invasions until after their prey has been softened, which would likely end up in a two and half way war that would decimate all three kingdoms.

And the only reason they haven't done it?  Because of Plot Armour.  Sole reason, and I simply cannot reconcile that in my head.  It's either that, or that the other two factions are so 1960's Batman incompetent that they're living jokes, and no country can survive that.


Or their enemies are a lich dictatorship in which no initiative is permitted and everything is micromanaged by the top, and a paranoid theocracy so focused on rooting out internal corruption that anyone with talent is eventually caught up in a purge. Meanwhile in Aldis, by far the largest and richest of the three, small rapid response special forces units (the PCs) hunt down attempts by shadow to infiltrate, while military units can train and prepare, rewarding initiative and ability, secure in the knowledge their cause it just, their citizenry support them, and they won't be subject to injustice from a paranoid leadership.

Yeah, sounds like an easy nut to crack.

Quote from: Snowman0147;848804
My only issue is two fold.  A magical deer gets to select the leader...
I've never really understood this objection. If the objective is good, by which I mean beneficent and effective, governance, then vesting authority in someone you know is good, because a divine being has demonstrated they are, gives you both beneficence and the ability to quickly respond to situations.

It's a fantasy system; it's not possible here, where modern* democracy is "the best of bad choices", since it minimizes corruption and arbitrariness, but at the expense of response time and efficiency. Aldis has a good choice, we don't. That's what makes it "utopian".

*Prior to the U.S., democracy was thought to be a particularly warlike and arbitrary system, subject to the whims of a populous led hither and yon by demagogues, e.g. Athens at various times, and the worst of bad choices.
 

Bren

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Pundy is Wrong, Blue Rose is Cool
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2015, 01:53:46 PM »
Quote from: apparition13;849224
*Prior to the U.S., democracy was thought to be a particularly warlike and arbitrary system, subject to the whims of a populous led hither and yon by demagogues, e.g. Athens at various times, and the worst of bad choices.
The U.S. is a republic with a House and Senate, not a democracy with a popular assembly. The government was set up as a not-democracy to explicitly limit the ability of demagogues and to preserve the interests of the [strike]Patricians[/strike] large landowners.
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The Ent

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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2015, 01:57:42 PM »
Quote from: apparition13;849224
*Prior to the U.S., democracy was thought to be a particularly warlike and arbitrary system, subject to the whims of a populous led hither and yon by demagogues, e.g. Athens at various times, and the worst of bad choices.


Democracy was still considered a bad form of government over a century past the creation of the US (ditto republic).

James Gillen

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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2015, 02:45:15 PM »
Quote from: Christopher Brady;849174
And that's the problem.  The Blue Rose Kingdom with their newly elected queen, has no guile, no cunning and no willingness to understand that their foes are just waiting to pounce on them.  And given just how likely those two factions are described in the old RPG, it's only by Plot Armour that BR hasn't been crushed and divvied up like sandwiches on a platter.

Simply because the enemies are ruthless, murderous bastards that want nothing more than to crush them, and neither of them are of the 'Warlord' variety.  Meaning they'll use things like assassinations, sabotage and other tricks to weaken it.  There will be no brute force invasions until after their prey has been softened, which would likely end up in a two and half way war that would decimate all three kingdoms.

And the only reason they haven't done it?  Because of Plot Armour.  Sole reason, and I simply cannot reconcile that in my head.  It's either that, or that the other two factions are so 1960's Batman incompetent that they're living jokes, and no country can survive that.


Which is why I do not consider Blue Rose a "solved world."  It is in its own way as screwed up as any other, just with one humane exception that proves the rule.  As for why the Evil factions didn't conquer this weak, passive country with its little army, it's because they ARE that Batman-villain incompetent.  Rereading the material, Shadow factions tend to turn on each other for any reason or no reason at all, which was a big part of how it was possible to rebel against the Sorcerer Kings in the first place.

JG
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jhkim

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Pundy is Wrong, Blue Rose is Cool
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2015, 02:53:21 PM »
Quote from: Christopher Brady;849174
The Blue Rose Kingdom with their newly elected queen, has no guile, no cunning and no willingness to understand that their foes are just waiting to pounce on them.  And given just how likely those two factions are described in the old RPG, it's only by Plot Armour that BR hasn't been crushed and divvied up like sandwiches on a platter.

Simply because the enemies are ruthless, murderous bastards that want nothing more than to crush them, and neither of them are of the 'Warlord' variety.  Meaning they'll use things like assassinations, sabotage and other tricks to weaken it.

I'm not trying to say you have to like Blue Rose, but this doesn't fit the background at all.  Queen Jaellin might be young and new, but that doesn't mean the entire kingdom has suddenly lost all its guile and cunning. In real-world history, many kingdoms have fought successful wars with young children on the throne - because even if the ruler is inexperienced, the generals and advisors are not.

Aldis has consistently outmaneuvered Jarzon and Kern - helped by its extensive spy network and roving bands of pro-active special forces. Among other things, Aldis has the key advantage of Rhy-animal spies compared to the others. They also have far greater magical expertise than Jarzon.

jhkim

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Pundy is Wrong, Blue Rose is Cool
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2015, 03:02:04 PM »
Quote from: NathanIW;849119
I figured there must be something to be said for actually playing in the setting.  I could see a campaign that's a cross between the Aria anime and the Never Ending Story movie working really well (perhaps in tone more than content).

I would like to hear more about any particular one shot that stood out to you.  One shots are usually loaded with conflict, so what sort of things did you do in Aldea during these one shots?

In my Aldean one-shots, most of the the time the key culprit was either a shadowgate, a corrupted sorcerer, or both. There were also crime - but that was usually just a cover or a sideshow for the main threat. I didn't use The Silence (organized crime) or shadow cults. I could have, but I didn't.

I had plenty of ideas for one-shots that focused more on crime, intrigue, and piracy - especially after the supplement came out that covered nautical adventures and the seas to the south. However, I didn't end up running those.

AsenRG

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Pundy is Wrong, Blue Rose is Cool
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2015, 07:01:23 PM »
Quote from: apparition13;849224
*Prior to the U.S., democracy was thought to be a particularly warlike and arbitrary system, subject to the whims of a populous led hither and yon by demagogues, e.g. Athens at various times, and the worst of bad choices.
Do you really think that the advent of the US has changed that attitude everywhere:D? Because I happen to know people that use the US as proof that it's so.
I tend to rain on their parade by pointing out that the US is a republic, but it doesn't actually end the conversation;).
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 07:04:12 PM by AsenRG »
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Armchair Gamer

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« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2015, 07:10:34 PM »
Quote from: The Ent;849234
Democracy was still considered a bad form of government over a century past the creation of the US (ditto republic).


   A lot of that has to do with the fact that a few years after the establishment of the United States (which had its own growing pains), the French gave it a try ... and it didn't go nearly as well.

Spike

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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2015, 10:57:52 PM »
Somewhere in the mists of time I reviewed Blue Rose for RPG.net. Its a wonder I've never been banned from there for my crime.

I not only found it incredibly preachy (and I was in fact able to do the math to prove its obnoxious levels of preachiness while debating it with Curt, of all fucking people!), but also utterly unworkable as a setting.

Someone tried to deflect the plot armor comment earlier, stating that it was that the hostile kingdoms were too flawed to mount a proper invasion, but Blue Rose explicitly pointed out that multiple Jarvonian (? Its been a long time since I read this, mind you...) invasions were stymied by a magic swamp that protects Aldea from their neighbors.

That is practically the very definition of plot armor.


Which is sad, because at the time I got Blue Rose, the stripped down D20 system it used was very close to what I was working on as an ideal system if you had to play D&D based games.  Since then I've modestly revised my opinion (that is, you need four significant choices, not three... no matter how elegant three choices winds up being), which went back to the old debate Pundit had with Green Ronin (?) about True20.


I'll say that, stripped of the preachiness of the setting, the single biggest flaw of Aldea as a setting is that far too many things were crammed in because of 'wouldn't it be nice' without nearly enough thought about how to make it actually work.

Never mind playable dolphins. Seriously: How did that make it past the editor?
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Gronan of Simmerya

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« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2015, 11:19:02 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;849244
I'm not trying to say you have to like Blue Rose, but this doesn't fit the background at all.  Queen Jaellin might be young and new, but that doesn't mean the entire kingdom has suddenly lost all its guile and cunning. In real-world history, many kingdoms have fought successful wars with young children on the throne - because even if the ruler is inexperienced, the generals and advisors are not.

Aldis has consistently outmaneuvered Jarzon and Kern - helped by its extensive spy network and roving bands of pro-active special forces. Among other things, Aldis has the key advantage of Rhy-animal spies compared to the others. They also have far greater magical expertise than Jarzon.


Hush, you and your "actually knowing what you're talking about."
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

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