Pundy is Wrong, Blue Rose is Cool

[James Gillen]

I apologize, it's not the queen that's holding them back, it's themselves apparently.

The thing is, they're too nice to actually be properly 'pro-active'.  Being properly pro-active would be to go into Jarzon and setting into motion an internal rebellion against the patriarchy, or other dirty, sneaky tricks to destabilize the internal workings and keeping their attention focused inwards.  Actions that would lead such Aldeans into the Shadow Alignment.

Kern?  They should have just gone in and crushed the Lich.  Fly one of their sky ships, drop a team of Blue Rose Knights and attack, just him.  Because the moment he goes down, his entire kingdom stops functioning.  And because he's both an aberration and in charge of the smallest country there, I'm surprised that that Aldeans have left this monster existing as long as he has.  And if it's because he's too power to crush, then I counter with, then why hasn't he tried to invade and destroy his hated enemies?

The way it's set up does not work in my head.  The things you need to do to make sure your country is safe is not nice, clean or honourable, simply because humans (and even these perfect, sweet, super nice Aldis folk) are not that good at figuring out ways to keep their families safe without doing something dirty.

Well, that's because you're an American and you're apparently not used to the idea that the laws of a country don't just allow the chief executive to invade anybody they feel like just because.

JG

[Bren]

Those aren't the best examples you could have picked.

I originally avoided pointing out that Pendragon from the beginning included Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, Ireland, the Saxon Lands, France, Rome, etc. aside from the central realm of Logris/Camelot because he did say "mostly" so on rereading his post I interpreted him as saying that like Blue Rose, some other fantasy games are also mostly focused on one main kingdom.

[Brand55]

I originally avoided pointing out that Pendragon from the beginning included Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, Ireland, the Saxon Lands, France, Rome, etc. aside from the central realm of Logris/Camelot because he did say "mostly" so on rereading his post I interpreted him as saying that like Blue Rose, some other fantasy games are also mostly focused on one main kingdom.

That's how I read it, too, which is why I posted. Neither Exalted or Deadlands are mostly focused on one main nation/kingdom. I haven't played Pendragon so I didn't comment on it, though it is on my (very long) list of books I want to read.

I wasn't disagreeing with the idea that there are games out there that primarily focus on one nation. Earthdawn is probably the first one that comes to my mind. I was just saying that Exalted and Deadlands really don't fit that description.

[Crabbyapples]

That's how I read it, too, which is why I posted. Neither Exalted or Deadlands are mostly focused on one main nation/kingdom. I haven't played Pendragon so I didn't comment on it, though it is on my (very long) list of books I want to read.

I wasn't disagreeing with the idea that there are games out there that primarily focus on one nation. Earthdawn is probably the first one that comes to my mind. I was just saying that Exalted and Deadlands really don't fit that description.

Pendragon is mostly represented on Briton. Yet, the game does have significant page count dealing with Irish occupation and the extensive years-long campaign to conquer of Rome.

[jhkim]

I originally avoided pointing out that Pendragon from the beginning included Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, Ireland, the Saxon Lands, France, Rome, etc. aside from the central realm of Logris/Camelot because he did say "mostly" so on rereading his post I interpreted him as saying that like Blue Rose, some other fantasy games are also mostly focused on one main kingdom.

Yeah, I agree with Brand55 that those weren't the best examples. Still, examples exist - and there are even more specific settings like Metamorphosis Alpha or Paranoia where play is in a specific spaceship / complex.

Blue Rose isn't solely about Aldis - I did run a campaign in Jarzon, say. Still, it doesn't have a wide range as a setting.

[Battle Mad Ronin]

Blue Rose isn't solely about Aldis - I did run a campaign in Jarzon, say. Still, it doesn't have a wide range as a setting.

I feel the opposite, I have always preferred 'deep' rather than 'wide' settings. Deep here meaning a compact setting with lots of detail, wide being a large but less detailed setting. Many fantasy settings fall into the trap of trying to copy Middle Earth's long history and many cultures, resulting in endless lists of relatively irrelevant events and histories stretched over thousands of years and continents. Aldis 300 or so years of important recent history and 3-4 distinct main cultures is a breath of fresh air to me.

I like what I have read of Blue Rose for being relatively short and compact, and the countries few and easy to get an overview of. You can always invent more countries if you need them, yet when roleplaying I rarely feel a need for more than a few countries for my group to travel among.

[RPGPundit]

One of your more annoying tendencies, Pundit, is to use quote marks for shit that people never said. I did refer to "extensive spy network" - but the other two quotes don't appear anywhere in this thread, and don't represent what I actually said.

Sorry, you said "outmaneuvered", not thwarted.
Meanwhile, Apparition said "small rapid response special forces units (the PCs) hunt down attempts by shadow to infiltrate,".
That plus "extensive spy network" spells Police State with Thought Control to me...

 

I don't think it's a big deal to kill orcs in D&D, and I also don't think it's a big deal to track down threats in Blue Rose.

When the threat is based on HOW PEOPLE THINK; that is to say, what their position is vis-a-vis Individualism vs. Collectivism, then this is a bit different.

At least games like Warhammer are self-aware enough of this to make it clear that, however necessary their Inquisitors might be to stop Chaos, it actually creates a horribly shitty world where tons of innocent people end up being royally fucked over by the people with religious/"moral" authority and the right to do anything to stop the Great Evil that independent thought can bring about.

The problem with Blue Rose is that it doesn't take that into account at all, because it's creators actually believe that social engineering to enforce collectivist thinking would always be a social good (so long as the "collective" in question was 'righteous' and not something completely awful like Christianity, of course).

[Bren]

:rolleyes:

Pendragon doesn't spend any page count warning us about the possible real world dangers of rule by divine right or by guys who pull magical hunks of steel out of rocks.

Maybe because it's just a game and games don't turn people into collectivist zombies any more than they turn them into murder hobos or Royalists.

[Orphan81]

Someone who knows Blue Rose help me out here...

This is my biggest objection to the setting.

I read somewhere, that anyone can become a Noble. All it takes is Education, passing some kinda test and being judged as not a Shadow Soul by the Queen's magic scepter...

If this is true, it leads to this very unfortunate implication...

Everyone who is not a Noble is either Stupid, Evil, or both...

If all it takes to become a "Noble" is education and being good...well most of society should be Nobles...unless Aldea is denying education to some of their citizens, which would in turn make them kinda evil... So then the reason has to become everyone has a Shadow Soul...which would mean most of the citizens are evil/selfish...

If neither is the case...you end up with a Hand Wavium setting caveat of "Well most of the citizens are just good little souls who know not to step above their station. They're education and good of heart and are much more happy pledging themselves to assist their nobles than trying to become Nobles themselves.."

Which to me is classicist as Hell and sets off all kinds of warning bells for me.

But I could be coming at this from a very limited understanding...if I am, please feel free to correct me.

[Gronan of Simmerya]

(so long as the "collective" in question was 'righteous' and not something completely awful like Christianity, of course).

..the Episcopal Church got its first gay bishop in 2002 and officially adopted a liturgy for blessing same sex unions in 2012....

Yes, I'm a Christian and yes, I support the vast majority of "Social Justice Warrior" causes, though not with the mindless rabidity of some of the proponents...


... or opponents...

[Gronan of Simmerya]

:rolleyes:

Pendragon doesn't spend any page count warning us about the possible real world dangers of rule by divine right or by guys who pull magical hunks of steel out of rocks.

Maybe because it's just a game and games don't turn people into collectivist zombies any more than they turn them into murder hobos or Royalists.

Hush, you and your "actually having a sense of proportion."

This is exactly the kind of shit about which Dave and Gary used to say "It's just a stupid game."

[Gronan of Simmerya]

:rolleyes:

Pendragon doesn't spend any page count warning us about the possible real world dangers of rule by divine right or by guys who pull magical hunks of steel out of rocks.

Strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!  Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!

[Bren]

Strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!  Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!

Exactly.

Now, what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

[trechriron]

Exactly.

Now, what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

60... no 40... ummm...

AHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhh....hhhh...





....hhhhh

[Battle Mad Ronin]

This is my biggest objection to the setting.

I read somewhere, that anyone can become a Noble. All it takes is Education, passing some kinda test and being judged as not a Shadow Soul by the Queen's magic scepter...

If this is true, it leads to this very unfortunate implication...

Everyone who is not a Noble is either Stupid, Evil, or both...

In my native Denmark, the college grade education needed to become a high-level civil servant, engineer or rocket scientist is freely available to all.

Amazingly, the entire population do not, in fact, consist of people with college educations. I do not think this is because Danes are particularly more stupid or evil than the most other peoples. Some people just turn out to be good at one thing or the other, and not everyone wants or ever needs a college education, or a job in the public sector.

Applying the same logic to Aldis, maybe not everyone wants to become noble. In fact the setting describes the roles of nobles more like government officials than anything else, administering to the needs of their particular area of responsibility. In Blue Rose's very optimistic setting this means that those who have the drive and the abilities can do their best in the administration.

If you want a darker take, maybe Aldis' bureaucratic educations work like the Imperial Chinese system, where an arbitrary examination could make you overlord of thousands, responsible keeping the balance between taxation to fund the luxury and armies of the higher class while avoiding peasant rebellion. Massive corruption optional.