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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: kidkaos2 on October 02, 2022, 05:24:28 PM

Title: Pundit
Post by: kidkaos2 on October 02, 2022, 05:24:28 PM
I've been watching your videos for years and there is something that continues to confuse me.  Perhaps you have addressed this early on in a video that I missed.

The confusion I have is understanding why there's a woke vs sane people battle in gaming.  I know a lot about it from following your videos.  I have a good idea who is on what side, what tactics are being used, what the end goals are, etc.  The thing I'm missing is why.  Why are people who don't play D&D anyway so concerned with gaming?  Why does someone watch Critical Role and then get some emotional investment in the game the Critical Role people are playing?  I saw an episode of Friends once where Ross played Rugby and got beat up, but it didn't make me go on a crusade against the dangers of Rugby.  Why can't the wokists just make their own games and be happy?  Why do they have to try to stop other people's games?  Similarly, why can't they just not buy the games they don't like, why do they have try to get the designer of that game fired with no thought at all to the children that designer might be feeding and clothing?  How are their lives improved by spending all that time trying to destroy the lives of others who never did anything to them?

I have a grasp on the goings-on in the gaming battles presently, but I don't understand the history of it getting to this point.  I know there was a defunct storygame site called The Forge where they hung out, but I don't know how you get from them hanging out in their own corner of the internet to them attmpting to ruin the livelihoods and enjoyment of everyone else, and apparently so committed to it that they spend years of unrelenting effort to destroy a harmless pasttime that has done nothing but offer people fond memories and great friendships.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: RPGPundit on October 02, 2022, 08:53:26 PM
That's a great question. I mean, you could just as easily ask why are there people so dedicated to doing similar things in video games, comics, scifi & fantasy, young adult novels, and TV & Movies.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 02, 2022, 09:26:08 PM
That's a great question. I mean, you could just as easily ask why are there people so dedicated to doing similar things in video games, comics, scifi & fantasy, young adult novels, and TV & Movies.
Taking a stab:  because woke is a totalitarian ideology.  It cannot tolerate dissent, or even dismissal.  In order to achieve the woke utopia, people cannot have any respite or place where they can escape the "message."  So the woke need to compromise all forms of entertainment, which is why they have taken over Hollywood, and why they are trying to take over video games, RPGs, et al. 

On an individual level, the woke aren't exactly... industrious.  It's not like they are going to be highly invested in transforming the construction industry.  The stereotype of the Twitterati basement dweller is not completely invented.  So, there are a lot more woke with tons of time on their hands whose lives revolve around entertainment (social media, games, etc.), therefore the Eye of Sauron is focused firmly upon us.  So, yeah, that's why there are people dedicated to woke-ifying RPGs...
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 02, 2022, 09:56:34 PM
Why can't the wokists just make their own games and be happy?  Why do they have to try to stop other people's games?

The basic dynamic, I think, lies in one basic conviction on the part of what's now called Wokism: The Woke believe that most people can't be trusted to figure out the truth for themselves, and that people are far likelier to choose what to believe and support based on what's advantageous to them than anything else; most arguments people muster for their beliefs, according to Wokism, are retroactive rationalizations rather than genuine thought-out choices.

To this mindset, any RPG, or other narrative entertainment, which promulgates tempting but deceptive falsehoods about people, society and the world (like the idea that police can be genuinely dedicated to law and order, that mainstream religious beliefs can be worthwhile things to uphold, or that nuclear families are the most desirable social building block) is not just a waste of one's time but an active danger, because it teaches wrongheaded beliefs that inevitably lead to institutionalizing oppressive behaviours and standards. Nor is simply preaching a counter-message sufficient, because if the false teachers have better advertising or narrative skill, they'll outsell your message regardless of how true yours is (again, people can't be trusted to tell truth from lies, or to prefer the truth even when they can perceive it).

In short, dangerous ideas have to be quarantined and exterminated for sake of mental health the same way dangerous pathogens have to be quarantined and exterminated for sake of physical health, because the Woke don't trust our psychological immune systems. The overlap between this mindset and certain recent disastrous public policy decisions is not, I believe, coincidental.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: GeekyBugle on October 02, 2022, 11:08:19 PM
Why can't the wokists just make their own games and be happy?  Why do they have to try to stop other people's games?

The basic dynamic, I think, lies in one basic conviction on the part of what's now called Wokism: The Woke believe that most people can't be trusted to figure out the truth for themselves, and that people are far likelier to choose what to believe and support based on what's advantageous to them than anything else; most arguments people muster for their beliefs, according to Wokism, are retroactive rationalizations rather than genuine thought-out choices.

To this mindset, any RPG, or other narrative entertainment, which promulgates tempting but deceptive falsehoods about people, society and the world (like the idea that police can be genuinely dedicated to law and order, that mainstream religious beliefs can be worthwhile things to uphold, or that nuclear families are the most desirable social building block) is not just a waste of one's time but an active danger, because it teaches wrongheaded beliefs that inevitably lead to institutionalizing oppressive behaviours and standards. Nor is simply preaching a counter-message sufficient, because if the false teachers have better advertising or narrative skill, they'll outsell your message regardless of how true yours is (again, people can't be trusted to tell truth from lies, or to prefer the truth even when they can perceive it).

In short, dangerous ideas have to be quarantined and exterminated for sake of mental health the same way dangerous pathogens have to be quarantined and exterminated for sake of physical health, because the Woke don't trust our psychological immune systems. The overlap between this mindset and certain recent disastrous public policy decisions is not, I believe, coincidental.

Funy because wokism is caused by a mind virus, and we would be better served if we went the way of hungary and banned nazism/fascism & socialism/communism/etc altogether.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Lee on October 02, 2022, 11:45:06 PM
I think that despite their indoctrination, the wokist subconsciously realizes that their belief system is self-contradictory.  This leads them to subconsciously wish to destroy that which disagrees with them, because then they don't have to man up and face their own failings of belief and action.

There is a psychological term for this behavior, but I am not a psychologist and can't remember what it is.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 03, 2022, 12:27:06 AM
I've been watching your videos for years and there is something that continues to confuse me.  Perhaps you have addressed this early on in a video that I missed.

The confusion I have is understanding why there's a woke vs sane people battle in gaming.  I know a lot about it from following your videos.  I have a good idea who is on what side, what tactics are being used, what the end goals are, etc.  The thing I'm missing is why.  Why are people who don't play D&D anyway so concerned with gaming?  Why does someone watch Critical Role and then get some emotional investment in the game the Critical Role people are playing?  I saw an episode of Friends once where Ross played Rugby and got beat up, but it didn't make me go on a crusade against the dangers of Rugby.  Why can't the wokists just make their own games and be happy?  Why do they have to try to stop other people's games?  Similarly, why can't they just not buy the games they don't like, why do they have try to get the designer of that game fired with no thought at all to the children that designer might be feeding and clothing?  How are their lives improved by spending all that time trying to destroy the lives of others who never did anything to them?

I have a grasp on the goings-on in the gaming battles presently, but I don't understand the history of it getting to this point.  I know there was a defunct storygame site called The Forge where they hung out, but I don't know how you get from them hanging out in their own corner of the internet to them attmpting to ruin the livelihoods and enjoyment of everyone else, and apparently so committed to it that they spend years of unrelenting effort to destroy a harmless pasttime that has done nothing but offer people fond memories and great friendships.

"It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
—C.S. Lewis
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Valatar on October 03, 2022, 02:38:33 AM
Developing a good, cohesive game system is hard and takes lots of time and work.  Running in and screeching at someone until they stick a rainbow flag on an already-existing product, on the other hand, requires basically no work whatsoever.

There you go.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: jhkim on October 03, 2022, 03:39:17 AM
I have a grasp on the goings-on in the gaming battles presently, but I don't understand the history of it getting to this point.  I know there was a defunct storygame site called The Forge where they hung out, but I don't know how you get from them hanging out in their own corner of the internet to them attmpting to ruin the livelihoods and enjoyment of everyone else, and apparently so committed to it that they spend years of unrelenting effort to destroy a harmless pasttime that has done nothing but offer people fond memories and great friendships.

Hi, kidkaos2. I was active on The Forge for a while, so I can answer genuine historical questions about it. I was active there from 2003 to 2005 and a little bit past, and on story-games.com for 5-10 years after that. As far as I can tell, the people who were active on The Forge have continued to be primarily interested in developing their own games, or dropped out of RPGs (at least visibly). For example, Ron Edwards has moved on to low-visibility projects - while Vincent Baker has generated a very popular game engine in Apocalypse World.

There are obviously a lot of new people on the tabletop RPG scene now, and I'm not active in a lot of the places where they hang out. This forum has been my main hangout for a while, along with the local Bay Area gaming scene.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: wmarshal on October 05, 2022, 10:03:44 AM
That's a great question. I mean, you could just as easily ask why are there people so dedicated to doing similar things in video games, comics, scifi & fantasy, young adult novels, and TV & Movies.
Taking a stab:  because woke is a totalitarian ideology.  It cannot tolerate dissent, or even dismissal.  In order to achieve the woke utopia, people cannot have any respite or place where they can escape the "message."  So the woke need to compromise all forms of entertainment, which is why they have taken over Hollywood, and why they are trying to take over video games, RPGs, et al. 

On an individual level, the woke aren't exactly... industrious.  It's not like they are going to be highly invested in transforming the construction industry.  The stereotype of the Twitterati basement dweller is not completely invented.  So, there are a lot more woke with tons of time on their hands whose lives revolve around entertainment (social media, games, etc.), therefore the Eye of Sauron is focused firmly upon us.  So, yeah, that's why there are people dedicated to woke-ifying RPGs...
This. As a totalitarian ideology Wokism cannot anything to be set aside and outside of its grasp. It’s a key reason why they reject any argument to “leave X out of politics”. In a totalitarian ideology everything HAS to be treated within its politics. It’s why Marxist governments insist on being deeply involved in all of the arts and sciences. It isn’t just about economic policy and the concerns of workers. It has to control poetry, comedy, the hard sciences, etc.

It’s my personal belief that as more people abandon traditional religion many of them still seek an authority to govern not just their own lives, but also to give them a tool to govern the lives of others. Secular totalitarian ideologies are a tempting tool for them to use. These ideologies are also more dangerous because they’re new (little prior history of failure to dissuade zealotry), and they afford their advocates a veneer of pseudo-scientific validity since they’re secular/non-supernatural.

When I say they have little prior  history that may seem strange since we still have commies after generations of Marxist failure. In my view humans are stubborn creatures, and it often takes hundreds of years to drop bad ideas. Look how long it has taken most current mainstream Christian religions to reach their current state of no longer trying to use lethal force to enforce their rules. Wokism is a strain of Marxism, and we’re going to be dealing with its various expressions for a damn long time.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Trond on October 05, 2022, 11:00:32 AM
As far as "why wokeism in RPGs" here's an interesting observation:
Tabletop RPGs were, if you ask me, a canary in the coalmine. The woke were taking over this scene (or trying to) before I saw a similar takeover elsewhere. I remember thinking that something was going seriously awry on the political left around 2010-2011, and that was based on what I saw in RPG discussions.

One reason might be because RPGs let you play characters other than yourself, so it may always have been a bit attractive to people with gender dysphoria. I saw discussions of trans issues, and militant gender studies opinions, relatively early on RPG.net. It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: wmarshal on October 05, 2022, 11:30:25 AM
As far as "why wokeism in RPGs" here's an interesting observation:
Tabletop RPGs were, if you ask me, a canary in the coalmine. The woke were taking over this scene (or trying to) before I saw a similar takeover elsewhere. I remember thinking that something was going seriously awry on the political left around 2010-2011, and that was based on what I saw in RPG discussions.

One reason might be because RPGs let you play characters other than yourself, so it may always have been a bit attractive to people with gender dysphoria. I saw discussions of trans issues, and militant gender studies opinions, relatively early on RPG.net. It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.
RPGs almost inherently have some degree of wish-fulfillment. The desire for ideological conformance seems to be relatively new, as in it may have started around 2010, but I don’t see a similar drive in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. The march of Wokism may be a conjunction of several factors such as social media, the spread of Critical Theory reaching a critical mass, etc.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: jhkim on October 05, 2022, 03:53:10 PM
Tabletop RPGs were, if you ask me, a canary in the coalmine. The woke were taking over this scene (or trying to) before I saw a similar takeover elsewhere. I remember thinking that something was going seriously awry on the political left around 2010-2011, and that was based on what I saw in RPG discussions.

One reason might be because RPGs let you play characters other than yourself, so it may always have been a bit attractive to people with gender dysphoria. I saw discussions of trans issues, and militant gender studies opinions, relatively early on RPG.net. It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.
RPGs almost inherently have some degree of wish-fulfillment. The desire for ideological conformance seems to be relatively new, as in it may have started around 2010, but I don’t see a similar drive in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. The march of Wokism may be a conjunction of several factors such as social media, the spread of Critical Theory reaching a critical mass, etc.

I think social media is by far the dominant effect - and the Internet in general. In the wider culture, political polarization has been increasing since the early 1990s, but it accelerated hugely with social media. People on opposing political sides have less and less overlap in what content they read and watch. They tend to only watch material that matches their political inclinations.

To Trond's point: there have been a bunch of psychological studies on RPG players starting in the 1980s. None of the ones I have seen suggest that RPGers are significantly higher in narcissism. I suspect the canary in the coalmine isn't RPG players in general, but rather the people most heavily online. Those who play RPGs without being online probably continued mostly similar to how they were in the 1990s and 2000s.

cf. https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: oggsmash on October 05, 2022, 07:27:41 PM
Tabletop RPGs were, if you ask me, a canary in the coalmine. The woke were taking over this scene (or trying to) before I saw a similar takeover elsewhere. I remember thinking that something was going seriously awry on the political left around 2010-2011, and that was based on what I saw in RPG discussions.

One reason might be because RPGs let you play characters other than yourself, so it may always have been a bit attractive to people with gender dysphoria. I saw discussions of trans issues, and militant gender studies opinions, relatively early on RPG.net. It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.
RPGs almost inherently have some degree of wish-fulfillment. The desire for ideological conformance seems to be relatively new, as in it may have started around 2010, but I don’t see a similar drive in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. The march of Wokism may be a conjunction of several factors such as social media, the spread of Critical Theory reaching a critical mass, etc.

I think social media is by far the dominant effect - and the Internet in general. In the wider culture, political polarization has been increasing since the early 1990s, but it accelerated hugely with social media. People on opposing political sides have less and less overlap in what content they read and watch. They tend to only watch material that matches their political inclinations.

To Trond's point: there have been a bunch of psychological studies on RPG players starting in the 1980s. None of the ones I have seen suggest that RPGers are significantly higher in narcissism. I suspect the canary in the coalmine isn't RPG players in general, but rather the people most heavily online. Those who play RPGs without being online probably continued mostly similar to how they were in the 1990s and 2000s.

cf. https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

  It is odd you quoted him and completely missed the point.  The Lefties wokes are the narcissists, not RPGers.   
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: jhkim on October 05, 2022, 08:23:34 PM
  It is odd you quoted him and completely missed the point.  The Lefties wokes are the narcissists, not RPGers.

This is the specific statement from Trond that I was responding to:

It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.

This is suggesting that geeks could have an overabundance of narcissists relative to the general population. If so, then that raised fraction would show up in psychological studies.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 05, 2022, 09:15:11 PM
Tabletop RPGs were, if you ask me, a canary in the coalmine. The woke were taking over this scene (or trying to) before I saw a similar takeover elsewhere. I remember thinking that something was going seriously awry on the political left around 2010-2011, and that was based on what I saw in RPG discussions.

One reason might be because RPGs let you play characters other than yourself, so it may always have been a bit attractive to people with gender dysphoria. I saw discussions of trans issues, and militant gender studies opinions, relatively early on RPG.net. It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.
RPGs almost inherently have some degree of wish-fulfillment. The desire for ideological conformance seems to be relatively new, as in it may have started around 2010, but I don’t see a similar drive in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. The march of Wokism may be a conjunction of several factors such as social media, the spread of Critical Theory reaching a critical mass, etc.

I think social media is by far the dominant effect - and the Internet in general. In the wider culture, political polarization has been increasing since the early 1990s, but it accelerated hugely with social media. People on opposing political sides have less and less overlap in what content they read and watch. They tend to only watch material that matches their political inclinations.

To Trond's point: there have been a bunch of psychological studies on RPG players starting in the 1980s. None of the ones I have seen suggest that RPGers are significantly higher in narcissism. I suspect the canary in the coalmine isn't RPG players in general, but rather the people most heavily online. Those who play RPGs without being online probably continued mostly similar to how they were in the 1990s and 2000s.

cf. https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

Links to those studies, please.  Anecdotally, almost all of the people i knew who played RPGs in the 80s and early 90s were people who were far more comfortable living in a fantastic world than in their own lives.   They may not have been narcissists, but they also weren't the star quarterbacks  or homecoming queens.

Besides, the whole "everyone has gotten soooo polarized" canard ignores the reason for the polarization. The "Contract for America" from 1992 isn't far from the same platform of the modern Republican party.  Whereas I'm pretty sure Daniel Patrick Moynihan would get escorted out of his own party today for warning about "defining deviancy down".  There wasn't a single national Democrat who supported gay marriage,  much less the idea that a dude could magically become a chick.  It's ironic that,  when the right causes social upheaval, it's their fault alone,  but the wild leftward push of the media and Twitteratti is somehow "everyone's" fault.  Nope.  The fact that there are lots of memes about how the left went way far and people who formerly considered themselves leftists suddenly were accused of being Nazis provides pretty strong evidence as to who was at fault.   Outside of a handful of neocons, there's no large complaints the other way.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Trond on October 06, 2022, 12:16:25 AM
Tabletop RPGs were, if you ask me, a canary in the coalmine. The woke were taking over this scene (or trying to) before I saw a similar takeover elsewhere. I remember thinking that something was going seriously awry on the political left around 2010-2011, and that was based on what I saw in RPG discussions.

One reason might be because RPGs let you play characters other than yourself, so it may always have been a bit attractive to people with gender dysphoria. I saw discussions of trans issues, and militant gender studies opinions, relatively early on RPG.net. It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.
RPGs almost inherently have some degree of wish-fulfillment. The desire for ideological conformance seems to be relatively new, as in it may have started around 2010, but I don’t see a similar drive in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. The march of Wokism may be a conjunction of several factors such as social media, the spread of Critical Theory reaching a critical mass, etc.

I think social media is by far the dominant effect - and the Internet in general. In the wider culture, political polarization has been increasing since the early 1990s, but it accelerated hugely with social media. People on opposing political sides have less and less overlap in what content they read and watch. They tend to only watch material that matches their political inclinations.

To Trond's point: there have been a bunch of psychological studies on RPG players starting in the 1980s. None of the ones I have seen suggest that RPGers are significantly higher in narcissism. I suspect the canary in the coalmine isn't RPG players in general, but rather the people most heavily online. Those who play RPGs without being online probably continued mostly similar to how they were in the 1990s and 2000s.

cf. https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

My “idealist narcissist” speculation aside (yeah this is all speculation based on personal experiences) what about the gender dysphoria?
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: oggsmash on October 06, 2022, 05:31:46 AM
  It is odd you quoted him and completely missed the point.  The Lefties wokes are the narcissists, not RPGers.

This is the specific statement from Trond that I was responding to:

It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.

This is suggesting that geeks could have an overabundance of narcissists relative to the general population. If so, then that raised fraction would show up in psychological studies.

   I think his suggestion there is off, only the loud and pushy RPGers are the leftists woke folks, and the real issue is the leftist woke are heavily represented by narcissists.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: jhkim on October 06, 2022, 02:54:45 PM
My “idealist narcissist” speculation aside (yeah this is all speculation based on personal experiences) what about the gender dysphoria?

I don't have any evidence either way. I suspect that people with gender dysphoria gravitated more to online games (which are mostly video games) rather than face-to-face tabletop games. I've played with several transgender people in my tabletop games, but that probably is more about my part of the country and my social circles than about RPGs.


cf. https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

Links to those studies, please.  Anecdotally, almost all of the people i knew who played RPGs in the 80s and early 90s were people who were far more comfortable living in a fantastic world than in their own lives. They may not have been narcissists, but they also weren't the star quarterbacks  or homecoming queens.

I'll see about adding links to my page. They are listed with complete bibliographic references, but I haven't linked them. There are some links at the RPG Studies site. You can search on the text "Read Online".

http://www.rpgstudies.net/


The fact that there are lots of memes about how the left went way far and people who formerly considered themselves leftists suddenly were accused of being Nazis provides pretty strong evidence as to who was at fault.   Outside of a handful of neocons, there's no large complaints the other way.

It sounds like you're citing how many memes are in your feed as evidence. That strikes me as exactly the social media driven partisanship that I'm talking about. I don't think that number of memes is a good measure of reality. They're a measure of what social media companies think will drive more clicks and profit.

Broadly, I do think liberals have changed since the Bill Clinton era, especially in the mainstream taking up LGBT causes and to some degree Native American causes.

Conservatives have also changed since the Bush Sr and Bush Jr era. Mainstream Bush conservatives were pro-immigration, passing the Immigration Act of 1990 that greatly increased immigration and added family-based immigration. They also supported foreign action and U.S. involvement in world affairs. They were in principle anti-abortion, but abortion was largely accepted compared to now. Both Bush presidents added to federal funding for schools, and federal regulation (No Child Left Behind).

I would say that the difference between either Bush and Trump is bigger than the difference between Bill Clinton and Biden.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 06, 2022, 06:08:20 PM
Broadly, I do think liberals have changed since the Bill Clinton era, especially in the mainstream taking up LGBT causes and to some degree Native American causes.

I think the Democrats have become a bunch of racist assholes. Maybe they always were, but it's become much more blatant now, and it's starting to drive minorites over to the Right.

"Liberals" are a mixed bag. Many disposessed who were cancelled have gone on to identify as libertarian or even right wing.

Quote
Conservatives have also changed since the Bush Sr and Bush Jr era. Mainstream Bush conservatives were pro-immigration, passing the Immigration Act of 1990 that greatly increased immigration and added family-based immigration. They also supported foreign action and U.S. involvement in world affairs. They were in principle anti-abortion, but abortion was largely accepted compared to now. Both Bush presidents added to federal funding for schools, and federal regulation (No Child Left Behind).

Has the Republican party become anti-legal-immigration? The big beef, personified by the idea of "Building a Wall" is that they're anti-illegal-immigration.

Quote
I would say that the difference between either Bush and Trump is bigger than the difference between Bill Clinton and Biden.

Trump was a non-political outsider who threw his hat into the ring in 2016. I'd say a more accurate grouping would be Bush, Clinton, Biden and Obama on one side and Trump on the other.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Trond on October 06, 2022, 08:56:50 PM
Either way, I think the political changes are noticeable, and sadly I think Johnny Rotten phrased it pretty well

“I never thought I’d live to see the day when the right wing would become the cool ones giving the middle finger to the establishment, and the left wing becoming the sniveling self-righteous twatty ones going around shaming everyone,”
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: jhkim on October 07, 2022, 12:03:50 PM
Conservatives have also changed since the Bush Sr and Bush Jr era. Mainstream Bush conservatives were pro-immigration, passing the Immigration Act of 1990 that greatly increased immigration and added family-based immigration. They also supported foreign action and U.S. involvement in world affairs. They were in principle anti-abortion, but abortion was largely accepted compared to now. Both Bush presidents added to federal funding for schools, and federal regulation (No Child Left Behind).

Has the Republican party become anti-legal-immigration? The big beef, personified by the idea of "Building a Wall" is that they're anti-illegal-immigration.

Trump specifically called for reduced legal immigration in his campaign platform. From his campaign platform:

Quote
Immigration moderation. Before any new green cards are issued to foreign workers abroad, there will be a pause where employers will have to hire from the domestic pool of unemployed immigrant and native workers. This will help reverse women's plummeting workplace participation rate, grow wages, and allow record immigration levels to subside to more moderate historical averages.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20160330080635/https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform

Once in office, Trump supported the RAISE Act, which would dramatically reduce legal immigration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAISE_Act

Trump also gave many executive orders to restrict immigration, such as more than halving the number of refugees accepted. He was opposed by some Bush-era Republicans, though, so I'm not sure how I would characterize Republicans as a whole.

Both Bush's pushed to raise immigration levels, while Trump pushed to reduce and restrict immigration.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: oggsmash on October 07, 2022, 12:08:22 PM
   Everyone knows the USA will be a better place to live with fewer white people.  So of course anyone who opposes more immigration (of course massively made up of people who are not white) of any kind, legal or otherwise is simply a racist asshole attempting to promote white supremacy.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: jhkim on October 07, 2022, 04:01:42 PM
Trying to keep vaguely on topic... The original post (OP) was asking about the history of how we got to the current political in gaming. That is tied into how we got to the current political divide in general in the U.S.  I'd hope we could discuss the history without getting bogged down in whether any given policy is right or wrong.

The point about immigration is a sidetrack from this from Eirikrautha.

Besides, the whole "everyone has gotten soooo polarized" canard ignores the reason for the polarization. The "Contract for America" from 1992 isn't far from the same platform of the modern Republican party.  Whereas I'm pretty sure Daniel Patrick Moynihan would get escorted out of his own party today for warning about "defining deviancy down".  There wasn't a single national Democrat who supported gay marriage,  much less the idea that a dude could magically become a chick.

Eirikrautha is asserting that there is little change from the Republicans under Bush Sr in 1992 and modern Republicans under Trump. I think that Trump has many significant differences from Bush Sr. That's not an attack on Trump, and indeed, I'd think many Trump supporters would agree with it.

---

Coincidentally, 1992 is also around when I first started getting involved in online RPG discussion. For me it started with rec.games.frp.advocacy on Usenet. At that time, the biggest flamewars in frp were about GURPS vs Hero System - which I don't think were politically involved. At the same time, there was the movement of White Wolf fans - who weren't overtly political, but they were overly counter-cultural as goths, and they didn't identify much with D&D players.

Circa 2000 when The Forge was starting up, the posters there didn't identify with either the goth White Wolf fans or the traditional D&D fans. They also weren't overtly political, in my experience. They were a little counter-cultural, and they were anti-corporate - and supporting small indie publishers was important.

I joined theRPGsite a little while later in 2006, and it was far less political than today - though a little more political than The Forge.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Tubesock Army on October 07, 2022, 05:48:19 PM
Either way, I think the political changes are noticeable, and sadly I think Johnny Rotten phrased it pretty well

“I never thought I’d live to see the day when the right wing would become the cool ones giving the middle finger to the establishment, and the left wing becoming the sniveling self-righteous twatty ones going around shaming everyone,”

John Lydon is and always has been a huge phony and the Sex Pistols were basically The Monkees of punk
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: RPGPundit on October 08, 2022, 11:50:51 AM
Trying to keep vaguely on topic... The original post (OP) was asking about the history of how we got to the current political in gaming. That is tied into how we got to the current political divide in general in the U.S.  I'd hope we could discuss the history without getting bogged down in whether any given policy is right or wrong.

The point about immigration is a sidetrack from this from Eirikrautha.

Besides, the whole "everyone has gotten soooo polarized" canard ignores the reason for the polarization. The "Contract for America" from 1992 isn't far from the same platform of the modern Republican party.  Whereas I'm pretty sure Daniel Patrick Moynihan would get escorted out of his own party today for warning about "defining deviancy down".  There wasn't a single national Democrat who supported gay marriage,  much less the idea that a dude could magically become a chick.

Eirikrautha is asserting that there is little change from the Republicans under Bush Sr in 1992 and modern Republicans under Trump. I think that Trump has many significant differences from Bush Sr. That's not an attack on Trump, and indeed, I'd think many Trump supporters would agree with it.

I would. Trumpist Republicans are now the party of free speech, the party of civil liberties, the anti-segregation party, the anti-corporate party, the anti-globalist party, the anti-war party.

The democrats are now the pro-censorship party, the party of curtailing civil liberties, the pro-FBI party, the pro-segregation party, the pro-corporate party, the party of globalism, and the pro-war party.

Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: oggsmash on October 08, 2022, 12:36:25 PM
  Reagan had many significant differences from bush sr.  Pretending the new world order guy was where most people who were conservative/republican then stood is retard level comprehension or just intentional obfuscation, as per the usual.   Acting as if Trump were a radical departure from republican thought in the 80's and 90's is stupid, point blank.  Different from globalists like Bush Sr and Jr?  Sure.  But republican is a long way from some blanket that means half the country is all on board with Bushes, you get the candidate you can get, not the one you want.  Leftists and their candidates are RADICALLY different from where the nation was in the 80's and 90's, they have no issues pushing mutilating kids and allowing all sorts of degeneracy and flat out open borders.  None of them were close to that 30 years ago.   I keep hearing how the right has gotten so "radical".  Apparently radical means not moving left fast enough, or deciding to try something different after decades of evidence the bullshit we were doing is going terribly wrong. 

  Oh well, again, once the nation is a lot less white all these problems will be cleared up and there will be no polarized politics in gaming, life, media, or any where else. Resisting this move towards peace and pluralism is obviously jut support of white supremacism.  Be glad when we get to that utopia.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 09, 2022, 12:48:57 AM
Trying to keep vaguely on topic... The original post (OP) was asking about the history of how we got to the current political in gaming. That is tied into how we got to the current political divide in general in the U.S.  I'd hope we could discuss the history without getting bogged down in whether any given policy is right or wrong.

For myself, the "culture war" came on my radar around the time of Atheism Plus. (Atheism plus Social Justice) One of many examples of a specific strain of ideology and ideologues infiltrating and destroying a community from within.

It sounds like a good idea. Who doesn't like justice? Only mean, bad people. But the end result is the exertion of social power over others. Leading to "witch hunts", and ideological purity tests.
We have an entire thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/rpgnet-s-decay-tbp-madness/) devoted to showcasing the madness that ensues within a community in the throes of social justice ideology.

Since then, many words have been typed and said on the topic. James Lindsay of New Discourses has done an insane amount of research into the philisophical origins of Social Justice. That's a good place to start if you want to spend hours of your life hearing about postmodern thought and political activism and how it seeped into modern culture.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 09, 2022, 11:46:52 AM
Trying to keep vaguely on topic... The original post (OP) was asking about the history of how we got to the current political in gaming. That is tied into how we got to the current political divide in general in the U.S.  I'd hope we could discuss the history without getting bogged down in whether any given policy is right or wrong.

For myself, the "culture war" came on my radar around the time of Atheism Plus. (Atheism plus Social Justice) One of many examples of a specific strain of ideology and ideologues infiltrating and destroying a community from within.

It sounds like a good idea. Who doesn't like justice? Only mean, bad people. But the end result is the exertion of social power over others. Leading to "witch hunts", and ideological purity tests.
We have an entire thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/rpgnet-s-decay-tbp-madness/) devoted to showcasing the madness that ensues within a community in the throes of social justice ideology.

Since then, many words have been typed and said on the topic. James Lindsay of New Discourses has done an insane amount of research into the philisophical origins of Social Justice. That's a good place to start if you want to spend hours of your life hearing about postmodern thought and political activism and how it seeped into modern culture.
Absolutely.  But jhkim doesn't want to know the actual history of the woke movement.  He wants the woke movement not to be completely the fault of his "side."  And those are mutually exclusive...
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: oggsmash on October 09, 2022, 04:33:43 PM
  Fault implies a mistake.  The march through the institutions and attempts to manage everyone on how and what to think is 100 percent on purpose.  I give kudos for the time and effort it took to get to the point is at.  I also give warning that pushing too hard will give a snap back, and given how far the middle has been stretched WAY to the left, the snap might cause some pain.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: corwinofamber on October 10, 2022, 12:39:16 AM
I've been watching your videos for years and there is something that continues to confuse me.  Perhaps you have addressed this early on in a video that I missed.

The confusion I have is understanding why there's a woke vs sane people battle in gaming.  I know a lot about it from following your videos.  I have a good idea who is on what side, what tactics are being used, what the end goals are, etc.  The thing I'm missing is why.  Why are people who don't play D&D anyway so concerned with gaming?  Why does someone watch Critical Role and then get some emotional investment in the game the Critical Role people are playing?  I saw an episode of Friends once where Ross played Rugby and got beat up, but it didn't make me go on a crusade against the dangers of Rugby.  Why can't the wokists just make their own games and be happy?  Why do they have to try to stop other people's games?  Similarly, why can't they just not buy the games they don't like, why do they have try to get the designer of that game fired with no thought at all to the children that designer might be feeding and clothing?  How are their lives improved by spending all that time trying to destroy the lives of others who never did anything to them?

I have a grasp on the goings-on in the gaming battles presently, but I don't understand the history of it getting to this point.  I know there was a defunct storygame site called The Forge where they hung out, but I don't know how you get from them hanging out in their own corner of the internet to them attmpting to ruin the livelihoods and enjoyment of everyone else, and apparently so committed to it that they spend years of unrelenting effort to destroy a harmless pasttime that has done nothing but offer people fond memories and great friendships.
The way I see it. There isn't any real woke vs sane people battle at all. It is a simple fact that RPG's and D&D are becoming more and more accepted as a hobby to be enjoyed by everyone. That people who have not been as welcome to the hobby in the past are now accepted as a part of the hobby. In general society is growing and becoming more accepting of people and more inclusive and our hobby is following that path.

I think it is great that our hobby is more open to more people and that our hobby is growing. More people playing D&D is good for everyone.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: corwinofamber on October 10, 2022, 01:32:15 AM
double post.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Stumpydave on October 10, 2022, 04:18:52 AM
The way I see it. There isn't any real woke vs sane people battle at all. It is a simple fact that RPG's and D&D are becoming more and more accepted as a hobby to be enjoyed by everyone. That people who have not been as welcome to the hobby in the past are now accepted as a part of the hobby. In general society is growing and becoming more accepting of people and more inclusive and our hobby is following that path.

I think it is great that our hobby is more open to more people and that our hobby is growing. More people playing D&D is good for everyone.

To say games are becoming more inclusive is a bit flawed.  Sure, there are more obvious attempts made to represent different groups and to accommodate different peoples personal beliefs and triggers, but there's also a growing feeling that if you're not from one of those groups or don't hold those beliefs/triggers you are a bad person who should not be allowed to play.
   
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: jeff37923 on October 10, 2022, 05:58:23 AM
I've been watching your videos for years and there is something that continues to confuse me.  Perhaps you have addressed this early on in a video that I missed.

The confusion I have is understanding why there's a woke vs sane people battle in gaming.  I know a lot about it from following your videos.  I have a good idea who is on what side, what tactics are being used, what the end goals are, etc.  The thing I'm missing is why.  Why are people who don't play D&D anyway so concerned with gaming?  Why does someone watch Critical Role and then get some emotional investment in the game the Critical Role people are playing?  I saw an episode of Friends once where Ross played Rugby and got beat up, but it didn't make me go on a crusade against the dangers of Rugby.  Why can't the wokists just make their own games and be happy?  Why do they have to try to stop other people's games?  Similarly, why can't they just not buy the games they don't like, why do they have try to get the designer of that game fired with no thought at all to the children that designer might be feeding and clothing?  How are their lives improved by spending all that time trying to destroy the lives of others who never did anything to them?

I have a grasp on the goings-on in the gaming battles presently, but I don't understand the history of it getting to this point.  I know there was a defunct storygame site called The Forge where they hung out, but I don't know how you get from them hanging out in their own corner of the internet to them attmpting to ruin the livelihoods and enjoyment of everyone else, and apparently so committed to it that they spend years of unrelenting effort to destroy a harmless pasttime that has done nothing but offer people fond memories and great friendships.
The way I see it. There isn't any real woke vs sane people battle at all. It is a simple fact that RPG's and D&D are becoming more and more accepted as a hobby to be enjoyed by everyone. That people who have not been as welcome to the hobby in the past are now accepted as a part of the hobby. In general society is growing and becoming more accepting of people and more inclusive and our hobby is following that path.

I think it is great that our hobby is more open to more people and that our hobby is growing. More people playing D&D is good for everyone.

The way you see it is wrong and colored by misinformation.

But hey, let's hear about which people you think were not as welcome into the hobby as others. Who were they? Why were they considered not as welcome?
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 10, 2022, 06:34:31 AM
The RPG games community has, in many ways, become less tolerant and inclusive. Social Justice ideologues have been trying to control the community and push dissenters past the margins.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Zelen on October 10, 2022, 08:46:39 AM
"Not inclusive" = Players are expected to conform themselves to informal group standards of behavior that don't alienate others

"Inclusive" = Exclude 50% or more of players for being problematic to less than 1% of players' socially maladaptive behavior
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Chris24601 on October 12, 2022, 10:48:05 AM
"Not inclusive" = Players are expected to conform themselves to informal group standards of behavior that don't alienate others

"Inclusive" = Exclude 50% or more of players for being problematic to less than 1% of players' socially maladaptive behavior
Pretty much this. When your ideology is based around the concept of Oppressor/Oppressed dynamics where Oppressed, Minority and Good are synonymous as are Oppressor, Majority and Evil, then of course the majority of any population must be evil and must be punished for their oppression of the saintly minority.

Never mind that that group was a minority because their actions/behaviors (ex. screeching Karenism, pathological narcissism, etc.) made them unpleasant to be around… they were the minority, ergo oppressed, ergo good and need to have their toxicity embraced and endorsed and the majority’s rejection of that toxicity reframed as evil incarnate.

And most of the rank and file of this ideology don’t even bother to understand that the real purpose behind those who pushed this ideology into their skulls weren’t doing so out of altruism, but the desire to divide so they can conquer.

The aim of the real pushers of this ideology is to so atomize society that no one will have sufficient support to oppose the technocratic dictates of people who believe their enlightened positions (i.e. mommy and daddy had enough money/connections to send them to the right schools and make the right social connections) give them the right to rule all those they believe are beneath them in whatever manner they see fit.

In terms of the RPG industry, we aren’t even dealing with the ones actually behind all this… we’re dealing with the brainwashed minions who genuinely believe that by pushing what is actually intolerance and hatred they are doing their part to usher in the promised utopia.

It’s no wonder so much of their work product is lukewarm mush… they don’t have the actual spirit needed for genuine creativity. That was stomped right out of them in the process of pounding the oppressed/oppressor narrative into them.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: FingerRod on October 13, 2022, 08:07:56 AM
But hey, let's hear about which people you think were not as welcome into the hobby as others. Who were they? Why were they considered not as welcome?

Hah, good luck getting answers to this.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: jeff37923 on October 13, 2022, 11:32:00 AM
But hey, let's hear about which people you think were not as welcome into the hobby as others. Who were they? Why were they considered not as welcome?

Hah, good luck getting answers to this.

It is how it usually happens. You ask them for even anecdotal experience of this exclusionary behavior and nothing is presented. It is like they were telling a lie so that they could fit in.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Abraxus on October 13, 2022, 05:44:03 PM
But hey, let's hear about which people you think were not as welcome into the hobby as others. Who were they? Why were they considered not as welcome?

Hah, good luck getting answers to this.

It is how it usually happens. You ask them for even anecdotal experience of this exclusionary behavior and nothing is presented. It is like they were telling a lie so that they could fit in.


Or they somehow almost always game with the worst DM and/or players who usually Aldo almost always “ gatekeep “ then from the hobby for being a woman, gay or trans. Try telling the mentally ill that during the 1970-8is and for the better part of the 99s no one dared to say they’re wee gay or face unfortunate social stigma. Women and especially trans players are on every corner. Essentially no matter they year or decade it was 2022.

As it won’t go against their carefully constructed personal narratives.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Trond on October 14, 2022, 09:46:54 AM
The way people talk about "inclusivity" makes me cringe. Imagine if I flipped through a jazz record collection and then started ranting about not "seeing myself" because too many of the musicians are black.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 15, 2022, 01:59:26 AM
The way people talk about "inclusivity" makes me cringe. Imagine if I flipped through a jazz record collection and then started ranting about not "seeing myself" because too many of the musicians are black.

Or if I started ranting about why there aren't more Caucasian people in Hong Kong wuxia films, or Korean TV dramas, or Nollywood (i.e. the Nigerian film industry) action movies.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Koltar on November 04, 2022, 12:09:12 AM
Personally ? - I miss the Blogs....I'm not that into the videos.

 Think its partly because Pundit's voice doesn't match what I imagined it would sound like.
That sounds silly I know.
 
-EdC.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on November 04, 2022, 05:58:02 PM
I miss the Blogs....I'm not that into the videos.

Think its partly because Pundit's voice doesn't match what I imagined it would sound like.

That's not an uncommon reaction. One of my favourite fantasy authors is Guy Gavriel Kay, whose work I absolutely love, but I find it very hard to listen to him reading his own work because he simply doesn't have a very euphonious voice.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Angry Goblin on December 10, 2022, 08:35:14 AM
I think that despite their indoctrination, the wokist subconsciously realizes that their belief system is self-contradictory.  This leads them to subconsciously wish to destroy that which disagrees with them, because then they don't have to man up and face their own failings of belief and action.

There is a psychological term for this behavior, but I am not a psychologist and can't remember what it is.

Not a psychologist either, though do you mean cognitive dissonance?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Title: My personal opinion
Post by: Ruprecht on December 30, 2022, 05:33:16 PM
Unhappy people often join cults and such seeking purpose. Woke gives them the same sense of purpose. It allows them to believe they are better and more enlightened than the non-woke. Unhappy people like to trash the things that make others happy hoping it will make them happy.

When targets cave to the attacks it makes them feel really powerful and happy for a short while, and encourages more of the same kind of attacks.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Neoplatonist1 on January 05, 2023, 12:07:24 AM
"It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
—C.S. Lewis

So much for the natural law written on men's hearts . . . turns out that can't be relied upon in the face of the ideologue.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: wmarshal on January 05, 2023, 11:05:46 AM
"It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
—C.S. Lewis

So much for the natural law written on men's hearts . . . turns out that can't be relied upon in the face of the ideologue.
I thought that the idea of “natural law written on men’s hearts” was that almost everyone has a natural sense of what is right, not that they’ll obey it 100% of the time. Quite a few would seem to disobey it at almost every opportunity.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Toran Ironfinder on January 06, 2023, 04:34:59 AM

I thought that the idea of “natural law written on men’s hearts” was that almost everyone has a natural sense of what is right, not that they’ll obey it 100% of the time. Quite a few would seem to disobey it at almost every opportunity.

Bingo, this is what the author of this phrase intended in the context.
Title: Re: Pundit
Post by: Wrath of God on January 11, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
Quote
So much for the natural law written on men's hearts . . . turns out that can't be relied upon in the face of the ideologue.

Existence of natural law also depends of overall metaphysics so relying on it as some sort of idea over other ideas was always kinda dumb.
You gonna argue with people holding opposite metaphysical believes to you that they should share your own anthropology? That's ridiculous concept.