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Author Topic: Pundit  (Read 3928 times)

kidkaos2

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Pundit
« on: October 02, 2022, 05:24:28 PM »
I've been watching your videos for years and there is something that continues to confuse me.  Perhaps you have addressed this early on in a video that I missed.

The confusion I have is understanding why there's a woke vs sane people battle in gaming.  I know a lot about it from following your videos.  I have a good idea who is on what side, what tactics are being used, what the end goals are, etc.  The thing I'm missing is why.  Why are people who don't play D&D anyway so concerned with gaming?  Why does someone watch Critical Role and then get some emotional investment in the game the Critical Role people are playing?  I saw an episode of Friends once where Ross played Rugby and got beat up, but it didn't make me go on a crusade against the dangers of Rugby.  Why can't the wokists just make their own games and be happy?  Why do they have to try to stop other people's games?  Similarly, why can't they just not buy the games they don't like, why do they have try to get the designer of that game fired with no thought at all to the children that designer might be feeding and clothing?  How are their lives improved by spending all that time trying to destroy the lives of others who never did anything to them?

I have a grasp on the goings-on in the gaming battles presently, but I don't understand the history of it getting to this point.  I know there was a defunct storygame site called The Forge where they hung out, but I don't know how you get from them hanging out in their own corner of the internet to them attmpting to ruin the livelihoods and enjoyment of everyone else, and apparently so committed to it that they spend years of unrelenting effort to destroy a harmless pasttime that has done nothing but offer people fond memories and great friendships.

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2022, 08:53:26 PM »
That's a great question. I mean, you could just as easily ask why are there people so dedicated to doing similar things in video games, comics, scifi & fantasy, young adult novels, and TV & Movies.
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Re: Pundit
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2022, 09:26:08 PM »
That's a great question. I mean, you could just as easily ask why are there people so dedicated to doing similar things in video games, comics, scifi & fantasy, young adult novels, and TV & Movies.
Taking a stab:  because woke is a totalitarian ideology.  It cannot tolerate dissent, or even dismissal.  In order to achieve the woke utopia, people cannot have any respite or place where they can escape the "message."  So the woke need to compromise all forms of entertainment, which is why they have taken over Hollywood, and why they are trying to take over video games, RPGs, et al. 

On an individual level, the woke aren't exactly... industrious.  It's not like they are going to be highly invested in transforming the construction industry.  The stereotype of the Twitterati basement dweller is not completely invented.  So, there are a lot more woke with tons of time on their hands whose lives revolve around entertainment (social media, games, etc.), therefore the Eye of Sauron is focused firmly upon us.  So, yeah, that's why there are people dedicated to woke-ifying RPGs...

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2022, 09:56:34 PM »
Why can't the wokists just make their own games and be happy?  Why do they have to try to stop other people's games?

The basic dynamic, I think, lies in one basic conviction on the part of what's now called Wokism: The Woke believe that most people can't be trusted to figure out the truth for themselves, and that people are far likelier to choose what to believe and support based on what's advantageous to them than anything else; most arguments people muster for their beliefs, according to Wokism, are retroactive rationalizations rather than genuine thought-out choices.

To this mindset, any RPG, or other narrative entertainment, which promulgates tempting but deceptive falsehoods about people, society and the world (like the idea that police can be genuinely dedicated to law and order, that mainstream religious beliefs can be worthwhile things to uphold, or that nuclear families are the most desirable social building block) is not just a waste of one's time but an active danger, because it teaches wrongheaded beliefs that inevitably lead to institutionalizing oppressive behaviours and standards. Nor is simply preaching a counter-message sufficient, because if the false teachers have better advertising or narrative skill, they'll outsell your message regardless of how true yours is (again, people can't be trusted to tell truth from lies, or to prefer the truth even when they can perceive it).

In short, dangerous ideas have to be quarantined and exterminated for sake of mental health the same way dangerous pathogens have to be quarantined and exterminated for sake of physical health, because the Woke don't trust our psychological immune systems. The overlap between this mindset and certain recent disastrous public policy decisions is not, I believe, coincidental.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2022, 11:08:19 PM »
Why can't the wokists just make their own games and be happy?  Why do they have to try to stop other people's games?

The basic dynamic, I think, lies in one basic conviction on the part of what's now called Wokism: The Woke believe that most people can't be trusted to figure out the truth for themselves, and that people are far likelier to choose what to believe and support based on what's advantageous to them than anything else; most arguments people muster for their beliefs, according to Wokism, are retroactive rationalizations rather than genuine thought-out choices.

To this mindset, any RPG, or other narrative entertainment, which promulgates tempting but deceptive falsehoods about people, society and the world (like the idea that police can be genuinely dedicated to law and order, that mainstream religious beliefs can be worthwhile things to uphold, or that nuclear families are the most desirable social building block) is not just a waste of one's time but an active danger, because it teaches wrongheaded beliefs that inevitably lead to institutionalizing oppressive behaviours and standards. Nor is simply preaching a counter-message sufficient, because if the false teachers have better advertising or narrative skill, they'll outsell your message regardless of how true yours is (again, people can't be trusted to tell truth from lies, or to prefer the truth even when they can perceive it).

In short, dangerous ideas have to be quarantined and exterminated for sake of mental health the same way dangerous pathogens have to be quarantined and exterminated for sake of physical health, because the Woke don't trust our psychological immune systems. The overlap between this mindset and certain recent disastrous public policy decisions is not, I believe, coincidental.

Funy because wokism is caused by a mind virus, and we would be better served if we went the way of hungary and banned nazism/fascism & socialism/communism/etc altogether.
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Lee

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2022, 11:45:06 PM »
I think that despite their indoctrination, the wokist subconsciously realizes that their belief system is self-contradictory.  This leads them to subconsciously wish to destroy that which disagrees with them, because then they don't have to man up and face their own failings of belief and action.

There is a psychological term for this behavior, but I am not a psychologist and can't remember what it is.
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Re: Pundit
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2022, 12:27:06 AM »
I've been watching your videos for years and there is something that continues to confuse me.  Perhaps you have addressed this early on in a video that I missed.

The confusion I have is understanding why there's a woke vs sane people battle in gaming.  I know a lot about it from following your videos.  I have a good idea who is on what side, what tactics are being used, what the end goals are, etc.  The thing I'm missing is why.  Why are people who don't play D&D anyway so concerned with gaming?  Why does someone watch Critical Role and then get some emotional investment in the game the Critical Role people are playing?  I saw an episode of Friends once where Ross played Rugby and got beat up, but it didn't make me go on a crusade against the dangers of Rugby.  Why can't the wokists just make their own games and be happy?  Why do they have to try to stop other people's games?  Similarly, why can't they just not buy the games they don't like, why do they have try to get the designer of that game fired with no thought at all to the children that designer might be feeding and clothing?  How are their lives improved by spending all that time trying to destroy the lives of others who never did anything to them?

I have a grasp on the goings-on in the gaming battles presently, but I don't understand the history of it getting to this point.  I know there was a defunct storygame site called The Forge where they hung out, but I don't know how you get from them hanging out in their own corner of the internet to them attmpting to ruin the livelihoods and enjoyment of everyone else, and apparently so committed to it that they spend years of unrelenting effort to destroy a harmless pasttime that has done nothing but offer people fond memories and great friendships.

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2022, 02:38:33 AM »
Developing a good, cohesive game system is hard and takes lots of time and work.  Running in and screeching at someone until they stick a rainbow flag on an already-existing product, on the other hand, requires basically no work whatsoever.

There you go.

jhkim

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2022, 03:39:17 AM »
I have a grasp on the goings-on in the gaming battles presently, but I don't understand the history of it getting to this point.  I know there was a defunct storygame site called The Forge where they hung out, but I don't know how you get from them hanging out in their own corner of the internet to them attmpting to ruin the livelihoods and enjoyment of everyone else, and apparently so committed to it that they spend years of unrelenting effort to destroy a harmless pasttime that has done nothing but offer people fond memories and great friendships.

Hi, kidkaos2. I was active on The Forge for a while, so I can answer genuine historical questions about it. I was active there from 2003 to 2005 and a little bit past, and on story-games.com for 5-10 years after that. As far as I can tell, the people who were active on The Forge have continued to be primarily interested in developing their own games, or dropped out of RPGs (at least visibly). For example, Ron Edwards has moved on to low-visibility projects - while Vincent Baker has generated a very popular game engine in Apocalypse World.

There are obviously a lot of new people on the tabletop RPG scene now, and I'm not active in a lot of the places where they hang out. This forum has been my main hangout for a while, along with the local Bay Area gaming scene.

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2022, 10:03:44 AM »
That's a great question. I mean, you could just as easily ask why are there people so dedicated to doing similar things in video games, comics, scifi & fantasy, young adult novels, and TV & Movies.
Taking a stab:  because woke is a totalitarian ideology.  It cannot tolerate dissent, or even dismissal.  In order to achieve the woke utopia, people cannot have any respite or place where they can escape the "message."  So the woke need to compromise all forms of entertainment, which is why they have taken over Hollywood, and why they are trying to take over video games, RPGs, et al. 

On an individual level, the woke aren't exactly... industrious.  It's not like they are going to be highly invested in transforming the construction industry.  The stereotype of the Twitterati basement dweller is not completely invented.  So, there are a lot more woke with tons of time on their hands whose lives revolve around entertainment (social media, games, etc.), therefore the Eye of Sauron is focused firmly upon us.  So, yeah, that's why there are people dedicated to woke-ifying RPGs...
This. As a totalitarian ideology Wokism cannot anything to be set aside and outside of its grasp. It’s a key reason why they reject any argument to “leave X out of politics”. In a totalitarian ideology everything HAS to be treated within its politics. It’s why Marxist governments insist on being deeply involved in all of the arts and sciences. It isn’t just about economic policy and the concerns of workers. It has to control poetry, comedy, the hard sciences, etc.

It’s my personal belief that as more people abandon traditional religion many of them still seek an authority to govern not just their own lives, but also to give them a tool to govern the lives of others. Secular totalitarian ideologies are a tempting tool for them to use. These ideologies are also more dangerous because they’re new (little prior history of failure to dissuade zealotry), and they afford their advocates a veneer of pseudo-scientific validity since they’re secular/non-supernatural.

When I say they have little prior  history that may seem strange since we still have commies after generations of Marxist failure. In my view humans are stubborn creatures, and it often takes hundreds of years to drop bad ideas. Look how long it has taken most current mainstream Christian religions to reach their current state of no longer trying to use lethal force to enforce their rules. Wokism is a strain of Marxism, and we’re going to be dealing with its various expressions for a damn long time.

Trond

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2022, 11:00:32 AM »
As far as "why wokeism in RPGs" here's an interesting observation:
Tabletop RPGs were, if you ask me, a canary in the coalmine. The woke were taking over this scene (or trying to) before I saw a similar takeover elsewhere. I remember thinking that something was going seriously awry on the political left around 2010-2011, and that was based on what I saw in RPG discussions.

One reason might be because RPGs let you play characters other than yourself, so it may always have been a bit attractive to people with gender dysphoria. I saw discussions of trans issues, and militant gender studies opinions, relatively early on RPG.net. It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.

wmarshal

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2022, 11:30:25 AM »
As far as "why wokeism in RPGs" here's an interesting observation:
Tabletop RPGs were, if you ask me, a canary in the coalmine. The woke were taking over this scene (or trying to) before I saw a similar takeover elsewhere. I remember thinking that something was going seriously awry on the political left around 2010-2011, and that was based on what I saw in RPG discussions.

One reason might be because RPGs let you play characters other than yourself, so it may always have been a bit attractive to people with gender dysphoria. I saw discussions of trans issues, and militant gender studies opinions, relatively early on RPG.net. It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.
RPGs almost inherently have some degree of wish-fulfillment. The desire for ideological conformance seems to be relatively new, as in it may have started around 2010, but I don’t see a similar drive in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. The march of Wokism may be a conjunction of several factors such as social media, the spread of Critical Theory reaching a critical mass, etc.

jhkim

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2022, 03:53:10 PM »
Tabletop RPGs were, if you ask me, a canary in the coalmine. The woke were taking over this scene (or trying to) before I saw a similar takeover elsewhere. I remember thinking that something was going seriously awry on the political left around 2010-2011, and that was based on what I saw in RPG discussions.

One reason might be because RPGs let you play characters other than yourself, so it may always have been a bit attractive to people with gender dysphoria. I saw discussions of trans issues, and militant gender studies opinions, relatively early on RPG.net. It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.
RPGs almost inherently have some degree of wish-fulfillment. The desire for ideological conformance seems to be relatively new, as in it may have started around 2010, but I don’t see a similar drive in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. The march of Wokism may be a conjunction of several factors such as social media, the spread of Critical Theory reaching a critical mass, etc.

I think social media is by far the dominant effect - and the Internet in general. In the wider culture, political polarization has been increasing since the early 1990s, but it accelerated hugely with social media. People on opposing political sides have less and less overlap in what content they read and watch. They tend to only watch material that matches their political inclinations.

To Trond's point: there have been a bunch of psychological studies on RPG players starting in the 1980s. None of the ones I have seen suggest that RPGers are significantly higher in narcissism. I suspect the canary in the coalmine isn't RPG players in general, but rather the people most heavily online. Those who play RPGs without being online probably continued mostly similar to how they were in the 1990s and 2000s.

cf. https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2022, 07:27:41 PM »
Tabletop RPGs were, if you ask me, a canary in the coalmine. The woke were taking over this scene (or trying to) before I saw a similar takeover elsewhere. I remember thinking that something was going seriously awry on the political left around 2010-2011, and that was based on what I saw in RPG discussions.

One reason might be because RPGs let you play characters other than yourself, so it may always have been a bit attractive to people with gender dysphoria. I saw discussions of trans issues, and militant gender studies opinions, relatively early on RPG.net. It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.
RPGs almost inherently have some degree of wish-fulfillment. The desire for ideological conformance seems to be relatively new, as in it may have started around 2010, but I don’t see a similar drive in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. The march of Wokism may be a conjunction of several factors such as social media, the spread of Critical Theory reaching a critical mass, etc.

I think social media is by far the dominant effect - and the Internet in general. In the wider culture, political polarization has been increasing since the early 1990s, but it accelerated hugely with social media. People on opposing political sides have less and less overlap in what content they read and watch. They tend to only watch material that matches their political inclinations.

To Trond's point: there have been a bunch of psychological studies on RPG players starting in the 1980s. None of the ones I have seen suggest that RPGers are significantly higher in narcissism. I suspect the canary in the coalmine isn't RPG players in general, but rather the people most heavily online. Those who play RPGs without being online probably continued mostly similar to how they were in the 1990s and 2000s.

cf. https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

  It is odd you quoted him and completely missed the point.  The Lefties wokes are the narcissists, not RPGers.   

jhkim

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Re: Pundit
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2022, 08:23:34 PM »
  It is odd you quoted him and completely missed the point.  The Lefties wokes are the narcissists, not RPGers.

This is the specific statement from Trond that I was responding to:

It is also possible that, sadly, geek culture in general is a bit attractive to "idealistic" narcissists, who thinks that the world owes them all sorts of things, because they were bullied in school or because of mommy and daddy issues (or both). Thankfully far from all geeks are like that, but I remember being struck by all the weirdness first time I went to a gaming convention.

This is suggesting that geeks could have an overabundance of narcissists relative to the general population. If so, then that raised fraction would show up in psychological studies.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 08:25:15 PM by jhkim »