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Author Topic: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...  (Read 5233 times)

Eirikrautha

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That's hilarious. Seriously, Eirikrautha?!? You're going to lecture me about ad hominems?
Yes, I am.  Pointing out your rhetorical strategy is not an ad hominem.  Disagreeing with you is not an ad hominem.  Accusing those who disagree with you of being heartless IS an ad hominem.

More importantly, your argument is like suggesting that a diabetic who still drinks soft drinks is already endangering their health, therefore it doesn't make any difference if they also eat candy bars frequently.  The presence of risk does not mean that increases in risk are irrelevant.  Your argument is garbage, and you have a history of such garbage arguments.  That's not an ad hominem, either.  It's a declaration of trends.

oggsmash

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  But I will sum up my first answer to safety again here, since you missed it before.  No transgenders playing girl's sports.  Period.  No problems now.

Do you really consider it "no problems" that there are over 300,000 concussions every year in girls sports?

Coming into this conversation, I knew roughly about the dangers of concussion from boys football. I had to look up the stats for girls sports, though, and I was surprised that girls soccer had a concussion rate almost as high (75%), and that girls volleyball was nearly a third as high. Seeing those stats makes me think that there is a problem that has nothing to do with transgender players. Roughly half of all the 2.5 million concussions per year among high school students are from sports. I don't have definite solutions, but it seems to me that this is a problem throughout school sports.

It seems unfeeling to dismiss out of hand the 300,000 concussions every year from girls sports (and many more in boys sports) - but to be seething with outrage over a single concussion if it involves a transgender player.

cf. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6724a3.htm

 Yes I do consider it no problem, I get a couch potato like you does not realize that playing ANY competitive sport carries with it a certain level of risk.  Letting boys play with girls is like deciding football players will play without helmets now.  Toss in the sorts of "problems" people are going to have when the outrage boils over....and best to avoid the whole mess and boys with boys, girls with girls.  If a girl wants to play football or compete with boys I have no issue with her taking her safety into her own hands.  Just as I have no issue with girls playing girls knowing the risks, tossing a dude in there is going to magnify the risk greatly.  It also is less the point than from a competitive point of view males are much stronger, faster, and more explosive than girls.  Now I dont mean the few female athletes who are stronger than your couch potato self, I mean athletes vs athlete comparisons, of which there is NO COMPARISON. 

   Retards go on and on and then try to make this a "you are not compassionate" argument.....I am a guy who cornered MANY female fighters in MMA....I have no issues with people entering competition understanding the risks....but I would NEVER let one of my female fighters fight a trannie under any circumstances.  If you do not understand the difference I can not make you.

jhkim

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Catching up on the thread here. First to rytrasmi,

It takes a startling lack of self-awareness and empathy to turn a women’s game into your own personal gender affirming therapy session. Or maybe this person just wants to cheat. Either way it’s a shitty thing to do.

I don't have a general answer here, but I think this depends on context. For example, my late friend Heather was very into her women's soccer league. Perhaps unsurprisingly for being in the Bay Area, the league was very LGBT-positive, and were welcoming of transgender players. Given the league's attitude, I don't think it is shitty cheating - it is people playing together who enjoy soccer.

Was it a competitive league? Did they actually have trans players or were they just welcoming?

It’s great that people are different and tolerant of others. However, this does not mean we have to be endlessly accommodating.

There is some limit to the number of trans players before a women’s team is no longer a women’s team. I think even you’d agree that a team with 100% trans players is not a women’s team, it’s something else. What’s your limit? One? Two?

Yes, they had trans players (my friend Heather was trans), and yes, it is a competitive league.

As for the threshold, leagues can decide for themselves what their criteria are, just like they make other rules. Not all leagues need to have the same rules. I'm not involved in the league, so it's not my call.

Again, I don't have a general answer about how things should be. I just think they should use accurate information and be informed in making decisions. As far as I could tell, Heather's league seemed very LGBT-friendly, and knew what they were getting into. I played briefly with her friend Shannon who was a non-transgender lesbian. I suspect they would be fine with a 100% transgender team.

crkrueger

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There’s two issues here.

First issue is that a boy was playing in a girl’s league where all the competitors expected to play against girls.  In a coed league, you know it’s a coed league and parents and children can decide to participate or not.

The second issue is the danger of men spiking volleyballs to women.
Since there are coed leagues, it’s reasonable to assume it’s not a slaughterhouse for women.  But, they have modified rules.

So, boys playing against girls in volleyball is ok if…
  • Everyone understands and agrees to boys playing with girls
  • Modified rules for coed leagues are used
Neither one was done in this case.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

jeff37923

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Catching up on the thread here. First to rytrasmi,

It takes a startling lack of self-awareness and empathy to turn a women’s game into your own personal gender affirming therapy session. Or maybe this person just wants to cheat. Either way it’s a shitty thing to do.

I don't have a general answer here, but I think this depends on context. For example, my late friend Heather was very into her women's soccer league. Perhaps unsurprisingly for being in the Bay Area, the league was very LGBT-positive, and were welcoming of transgender players. Given the league's attitude, I don't think it is shitty cheating - it is people playing together who enjoy soccer.

Was it a competitive league? Did they actually have trans players or were they just welcoming?

It’s great that people are different and tolerant of others. However, this does not mean we have to be endlessly accommodating.

There is some limit to the number of trans players before a women’s team is no longer a women’s team. I think even you’d agree that a team with 100% trans players is not a women’s team, it’s something else. What’s your limit? One? Two?

Yes, they had trans players (my friend Heather was trans), and yes, it is a competitive league.

As for the threshold, leagues can decide for themselves what their criteria are, just like they make other rules. Not all leagues need to have the same rules. I'm not involved in the league, so it's not my call.

Again, I don't have a general answer about how things should be. I just think they should use accurate information and be informed in making decisions. As far as I could tell, Heather's league seemed very LGBT-friendly, and knew what they were getting into. I played briefly with her friend Shannon who was a non-transgender lesbian. I suspect they would be fine with a 100% transgender team.


A couple of questions -

You said Heather was trans. Is she still trans?

You claim to have played in a GBLT+ friendly coed team. How old were they and you at the time? Were you all adults or high school age?
"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

jhkim

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You said Heather was trans. Is she still trans?

You claim to have played in a GBLT+ friendly coed team. How old were they and you at the time? Were you all adults or high school age?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Sadly, Heather passed away about six years ago. She identified as transgender for as long as I knew her, up until her passing.

I played tabletop RPGs with Heather for nine years, and with her friend Shannon for about a year. I did not play volleyball with them. Their league was women-only, and by their rules, that included transgender women. It was an adult-only league.


There’s two issues here.

First issue is that a boy was playing in a girl’s league where all the competitors expected to play against girls.  In a coed league, you know it’s a coed league and parents and children can decide to participate or not.

The second issue is the danger of men spiking volleyballs to women.
Since there are coed leagues, it’s reasonable to assume it’s not a slaughterhouse for women.  But, they have modified rules.

So, boys playing against girls in volleyball is ok if…
  • Everyone understands and agrees to boys playing with girls
  • Modified rules for coed leagues are used
Neither one was done in this case.

I believe that the transgender player policy was open and known. In all the interviews I read, none of the coaches or other officials expressed surprise at the policy.

It's a public high school, so there can't be an open choice about leagues. Given that, I'd prefer if policy should be determined democratically among the players and coaches. As it is, the existing policy was probably determined by elected school officials.

As for the modified rules, the only one that would apply to this case is the net height. I agree that is a difference, but as I said back in reply #47, I am skeptical that this is really the issue. If the net had been set 7 inches higher at standard co-ed net height for all games, then would that change your mind and find transgender players safe and acceptable?

crkrueger

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In a coed league sure.  As the only boy in a girl’s league, no.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

jeff37923

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You said Heather was trans. Is she still trans?

You claim to have played in a GBLT+ friendly coed team. How old were they and you at the time? Were you all adults or high school age?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Sadly, Heather passed away about six years ago. She identified as transgender for as long as I knew her, up until her passing.

I played tabletop RPGs with Heather for nine years, and with her friend Shannon for about a year. I did not play volleyball with them. Their league was women-only, and by their rules, that included transgender women. It was an adult-only league.


There’s two issues here.

First issue is that a boy was playing in a girl’s league where all the competitors expected to play against girls.  In a coed league, you know it’s a coed league and parents and children can decide to participate or not.

The second issue is the danger of men spiking volleyballs to women.
Since there are coed leagues, it’s reasonable to assume it’s not a slaughterhouse for women.  But, they have modified rules.

So, boys playing against girls in volleyball is ok if…
  • Everyone understands and agrees to boys playing with girls
  • Modified rules for coed leagues are used
Neither one was done in this case.

I believe that the transgender player policy was open and known. In all the interviews I read, none of the coaches or other officials expressed surprise at the policy.

It's a public high school, so there can't be an open choice about leagues. Given that, I'd prefer if policy should be determined democratically among the players and coaches. As it is, the existing policy was probably determined by elected school officials.

As for the modified rules, the only one that would apply to this case is the net height. I agree that is a difference, but as I said back in reply #47, I am skeptical that this is really the issue. If the net had been set 7 inches higher at standard co-ed net height for all games, then would that change your mind and find transgender players safe and acceptable?


What were the circumstances of Heather's death?

And I have never heard of a high school sports team whose players got to weigh in on policy choices, it is usually coaches and elected school officials who determine policy.
"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

jhkim

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It's a public high school, so there can't be an open choice about leagues. Given that, I'd prefer if policy should be determined democratically among the players and coaches. As it is, the existing policy was probably determined by elected school officials.

What were the circumstances of Heather's death?

And I have never heard of a high school sports team whose players got to weigh in on policy choices, it is usually coaches and elected school officials who determine policy.

Right. That is what I intended to say. crkrueger and others were saying that it's important that everyone understands and agrees to the policy. I was trying to say that the ideal is for players having choice and/or input on policy.

I don't think Heather's passing relates to the point about league play.

jeff37923

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It's a public high school, so there can't be an open choice about leagues. Given that, I'd prefer if policy should be determined democratically among the players and coaches. As it is, the existing policy was probably determined by elected school officials.

What were the circumstances of Heather's death?

And I have never heard of a high school sports team whose players got to weigh in on policy choices, it is usually coaches and elected school officials who determine policy.

Right. That is what I intended to say. crkrueger and others were saying that it's important that everyone understands and agrees to the policy. I was trying to say that the ideal is for players having choice and/or input on policy.

I don't think Heather's passing relates to the point about league play.

Typically, the players choice or input on policy in high school sports is to choose not to play that sport.

Heather, being a trans, death has got a lot to do with the subject matter if her death was the result of her transitioning. It is why I asked.
"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

jhkim

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So the topic here was originally the alleged danger of transgender athletes in volleyball.

Coed volleyball is common though not the norm, and hasn't resulted in outcry about the dangers. Such games have a different net height, but otherwise, they still have male players spiking the ball towards female players. People do get concussions in coed games, but they also get concussions in same-sex volleyball - probably over a thousand every year.

In general, my opinion is that whether transgender athletes should play in the league should be the business of the people actually playing in the league - not the government or advocates ruling from outside. As I said, the transgender people I've known who were active in athletics seemed to be participating with the full support of their teammates and the league. If people are happily playing together and agreeing, then I don't see the problem.

That goes back around to my personal experience of transgender players in athletics, which my only direct experience with was through my late friend Heather and her soccer league. From what I could tell from her play and her non-transgender teammate Shannon, their league was happy with transgender participation.


Typically, the players choice or input on policy in high school sports is to choose not to play that sport.

Heather, being a trans, death has got a lot to do with the subject matter if her death was the result of her transitioning. It is why I asked.

I don't see how it relates. Sadly, Heather was murdered five years ago by her domestic partner. I was devastated particularly because I didn't learn about it until over a year later. Her family apparently didn't put a lot of effort into contacting her friends, and as she had previously dropped out of our RPG campaign, I thought she just wasn't responding to email.

Domestic violence is unfortunately all too common among both straight and LGBT couples. My fiancee's mother was murdered by the domestic partner of a friend, as another example. Thus, I don't think Heather's death was obviously a result of her transitioning, but it could have been a factor. Even if it was a factor, though, I don't see that it matters to the point about athletics.

Brad

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I think at this point I could make a jhkim post generator without too much trouble. Just download the current pedo-party talking points and respond to every question or comment as if you're being wrongfully attacked, regardless of merit.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Wrath of God

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Generally allowing AMABs to female sports is definitely unfair competition - alas I'd say while in terms of specifically contact sports it's also danger - the volleyball is non-contact sport, and such occurence as here counts more as freak accident if anything, and from my HS experience indeed volleyball training matches often were uni-sex in my HS (would be problem to arrange proper teams otherwise).

Of course considering it was some kind of state-league and not merely sport class - the unfair advantage argument is still valid here, volleyball being one of sports where female players play distinctly different due to physical differences and maleborn players should not compete with women.
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