I realize this forum is usually a shout/shake fist at clouds/troll section but I thought an off topic that would stir less negativity might be appropriate. I have always been active and a bit of time where my activities were badly restricted (grade 3 pec tear I finally had repaired) from my norms gave me a pretty stark reality as to how fast parts of me can degrade without exercise.
So what sorts of activities do you guys enjoy for exercise/training (I view those two things differently but that is TLDR stuff) and how often? I know the forum is largely about a hobby where these things are not common, but I also know this forum has for the most part smart people, and smart people realize at some point getting active can make the later stages of life a good deal more enjoyable.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 13, 2022, 05:46:31 AM
I realize this forum is usually a shout/shake fist at clouds/troll section but I thought an off topic that would stir less negativity might be appropriate. I have always been active and a bit of time where my activities were badly restricted (grade 3 pec tear I finally had repaired) from my norms gave me a pretty stark reality as to how fast parts of me can degrade without exercise.
So what sorts of activities do you guys enjoy for exercise/training (I view those two things differently but that is TLDR stuff) and how often? I know the forum is largely about a hobby where these things are not common, but I also know this forum has for the most part smart people, and smart people realize at some point getting active can make the later stages of life a good deal more enjoyable.
Walking the dog. Only about 45-60 minutes a day (10-15 in the morning, 30 minutes in the afternoon, and about 10 mins before bed m
Barbell strength training, 4 days a week. Started Jan 2020, still going.
You'll need to google translate:
Levantamiento de tarro
cien litros planos
50 litros con botanas
lanzamiento de jaibolina.
Long distance running. Also on recovery days I run to a tent in the woods full of free weights and do a bit of lifting. Also some not very serious boxing a few times a week with the kids.
I walk 4-6 miles every day, train Crossfit every weekday, go to dance classes at least once a week.
Also regularly throw around 20-30kg of children of varying sizes. Mostly my smallest one.
A lot of "smart" people are some combination unfit, overweight or weak. A lot of very fit people are dumb. Not many manage both.
Walk about 3.25 miles a day, weather permitting (I usually do this as a wind-down from work, takes about an hour on the path I use).
16 miles on my stationary bike if I walked, 21 if I didn't.
Six days a week, under most circumstances.
From the early '80s until 2014 I lifted 4-5 days per week. In 2015 I started doing boot camp style workouts with a local men's group, which has since gone national. I spent most of this summer back in the gym with my son, who is playing college football. He needed a lifting partner, and it felt good to be back at the weightpile.
I walk at least 10,000 steps per day. Oh, yeah, I also play ice hockey in the local beer league once to twice a week. That helps keep in shape. :D
Quote from: The Spaniard on August 14, 2022, 01:02:07 PM
From the early '80s until 2014 I lifted 4-5 days per week. In 2015 I started doing boot camp style workouts with a local men's group, which has since gone national. I spent most of this summer back in the gym with my son, who is playing college football. He needed a lifting partner, and it felt good to be back at the weightpile.
Sounds similar to how I spent my summer (though my lifting started similar in the early 80's it tapered off A LOT back in 2002 or so) with my son...only he is 12 and just starting to lift weights. I took this summer to spend more time on my over all strength rather than getting back to BJJ (used to train 4-5 days a week before blow out pec) to shore up any other spots that might be waiting to give out on me. I am still the old guy trying not to get hurt...but I can see a turn where I might be the old guy trying to get hurt...hopefully I will be back to burning out recovery with BJJ and kickboxing before that so I taper off again. Though I realize I missed lifting weights a lot, and muscle memory does a lot to get me back into it.
Quote from: Kiero on August 14, 2022, 07:33:54 AM
I walk 4-6 miles every day, train Crossfit every weekday, go to dance classes at least once a week.
Also regularly throw around 20-30kg of children of varying sizes. Mostly my smallest one.
A lot of "smart" people are some combination unfit, overweight or weak. A lot of very fit people are dumb. Not many manage both.
The ancients had a solid understanding of "sound mind
and sound body". Todays excesses of "smart" people who are unfit and "dumb" people who are "very fit", along with other "sound mind
or sound body" examples, would be seen as unhealthy aberrations.
I am a lardass at heart, but my new job requires a lot of physical exercise and turning 24" valves at a chemical plant is no easy task. I'm trying to supplement that with just a basic workout of push-ups and sit-ups along with long walks around the neighborhood.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 14, 2022, 08:36:17 PM
I am a lardass at heart, but my new job requires a lot of physical exercise and turning 24" valves at a chemical plant is no easy task. I'm trying to supplement that with just a basic workout of push-ups and sit-ups along with long walks around the neighborhood.
Body weight exercises are great (and free!). Push ups, pull ups, squats, etc can burn a ton of calories.
I walk at least 10,000 steps a day. I also use a food tracker that tracks my calories available and used each day.
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 15, 2022, 04:03:17 PM
I walk at least 10,000 steps a day. I also use a food tracker that tracks my calories available and used each day.
I do the calorie count thing too, but my doctor wants me to cut out a lot of starches from my diet. Lucky for me, I found some instant brown rice at my local grocery store.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 16, 2022, 05:29:36 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 15, 2022, 04:03:17 PM
I walk at least 10,000 steps a day. I also use a food tracker that tracks my calories available and used each day.
I do the calorie count thing too, but my doctor wants me to cut out a lot of starches from my diet. Lucky for me, I found some instant brown rice at my local grocery store.
For me its sugar which I am trying to do but it is hard because sometimes if you go to a restaurant you just don't know. But I do my best and I have lost 20 pounds already.
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 16, 2022, 09:01:58 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 16, 2022, 05:29:36 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 15, 2022, 04:03:17 PM
I walk at least 10,000 steps a day. I also use a food tracker that tracks my calories available and used each day.
I do the calorie count thing too, but my doctor wants me to cut out a lot of starches from my diet. Lucky for me, I found some instant brown rice at my local grocery store.
For me its sugar which I am trying to do but it is hard because sometimes if you go to a restaurant you just don't know. But I do my best and I have lost 20 pounds already.
Doc told me I've lost 16 pounds, so I got to be doing something right.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 16, 2022, 11:24:49 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 16, 2022, 09:01:58 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 16, 2022, 05:29:36 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 15, 2022, 04:03:17 PM
I walk at least 10,000 steps a day. I also use a food tracker that tracks my calories available and used each day.
I do the calorie count thing too, but my doctor wants me to cut out a lot of starches from my diet. Lucky for me, I found some instant brown rice at my local grocery store.
For me its sugar which I am trying to do but it is hard because sometimes if you go to a restaurant you just don't know. But I do my best and I have lost 20 pounds already.
Doc told me I've lost 16 pounds, so I got to be doing something right.
Not necessarily; it could be cancer.
Quote from: RandyB on August 14, 2022, 04:37:20 PM
The ancients had a solid understanding of "sound mind and sound body". Todays excesses of "smart" people who are unfit and "dumb" people who are "very fit", along with other "sound mind or sound body" examples, would be seen as unhealthy aberrations.
Most people are far too lazy to do both. They think only one is sufficient.
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 15, 2022, 04:03:17 PM
I walk at least 10,000 steps a day. I also use a food tracker that tracks my calories available and used each day.
Everyone otherwise able-bodied should be doing 10,000 steps a day, in addition to strength training and other activities.
Quote from: Kiero on August 17, 2022, 07:16:10 AM
Quote from: RandyB on August 14, 2022, 04:37:20 PM
The ancients had a solid understanding of "sound mind and sound body". Todays excesses of "smart" people who are unfit and "dumb" people who are "very fit", along with other "sound mind or sound body" examples, would be seen as unhealthy aberrations.
Most people are far too lazy to do both. They think only one is sufficient.
Being convinced of "or" rather than "and" as a matter of nature/genetics/etc. makes that nurture/laziness/etc. easy to justify.
I used to run 3-4 miles every other day but during a bout of sciatica I switched to lower impact cardio and I've stuck with that. Exercise bike (I prefer a recumbent bike as it's better on the spine), arm bike, and rowing machine, usually 20-30 minutes on two of those 3x a week, along with a stretching regimen (focused on neck and back as those have been problem areas in the past) and weight lifting (on machines rather than free weights).
These days my routine is less about getting "jacked" and more about making sure I can still get up and move around when I'm 60.
On the days that I don't go to the gym I try to get to the park near my house and walk a couple of miles around the perimeter.
When I was working retail, I got my exercise picking up car batteries, which was great, except the pay was shit and the respect even worse.
Now that I'm back working in my white collar career, I need to work out more. I just picked up a 35 lb kettle bell to do some basic lifting exercises with, but I haven't worked out a good time to do the workouts. Mornings are right out.
Quote from: Joey2k on August 17, 2022, 08:30:22 AM
I used to run 3-4 miles every other day but during a bout of sciatica I switched to lower impact cardio and I've stuck with that. Exercise bike (I prefer a recumbent bike as it's better on the spine), arm bike, and rowing machine, usually 20-30 minutes on two of those 3x a week, along with a stretching regimen (focused on neck and back as those have been problem areas in the past) and weight lifting (on machines rather than free weights).
These days my routine is less about getting "jacked" and more about making sure I can still get up and move around when I'm 60.
On the days that I don't go to the gym I try to get to the park near my house and walk a couple of miles around the perimeter.
I bought a recumbent trike a year ago, and it was the best money I ever spent on a bit of gear to get me out and about. So much more comfortable to ride as I get older (my ass does not love a bike seat, and as you mention the back likes it a lot better too) than a bicycle. I am not a serious cyclist, but I do like to do a few 20 miles rides a week and that thing is a hell of a lot more comfortable to do it on than my bike.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 11:21:41 AM
Quote from: Joey2k on August 17, 2022, 08:30:22 AM
I used to run 3-4 miles every other day but during a bout of sciatica I switched to lower impact cardio and I've stuck with that. Exercise bike (I prefer a recumbent bike as it's better on the spine), arm bike, and rowing machine, usually 20-30 minutes on two of those 3x a week, along with a stretching regimen (focused on neck and back as those have been problem areas in the past) and weight lifting (on machines rather than free weights).
These days my routine is less about getting "jacked" and more about making sure I can still get up and move around when I'm 60.
On the days that I don't go to the gym I try to get to the park near my house and walk a couple of miles around the perimeter.
I bought a recumbent trike a year ago, and it was the best money I ever spent on a bit of gear to get me out and about. So much more comfortable to ride as I get older (my ass does not love a bike seat, and as you mention the back likes it a lot better too) than a bicycle. I am not a serious cyclist, but I do like to do a few 20 miles rides a week and that thing is a hell of a lot more comfortable to do it on than my bike.
Lord yes, that too.
I'm fundamentally a lazy man and I don't like exercising unless it augments something. So I work out for short periods 20 mins a day (generally) but at high intensity. A lot of heavy bag work.
Also, it is all is task specific to martial arts. That would include the way I'd do weight training as well.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 17, 2022, 11:36:19 AM
I'm fundamentally a lazy man and I don't like exercising unless it augments something. So I work out for short periods 20 mins a day (generally) but at high intensity. A lot of heavy bag work.
Also, it is all is task specific to martial arts. That would include the way I'd do weight training as well.
All basic weight training with a barbell (the meathead basics, bench, squat, deadlift, press and others) are task specific to martial arts.
Though I was also pretty lazy the past 8 years regarding anything not directly related to martial arts (bag work, pad work, sparring, grappling, wrestling) and those things do wonders for cardio and burst recovery, but I was way lazy with strength training and maintenance because I was strong as hell at 30. The problem I came to notice, is once you are capable of something power wise, you always are whether your current structure and state can take it or not (meaning a rusty battle ship shooting big guns can damage the ship badly) so I find myself trying to focus back on basics.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 03:48:25 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 17, 2022, 11:36:19 AM
I'm fundamentally a lazy man and I don't like exercising unless it augments something. So I work out for short periods 20 mins a day (generally) but at high intensity. A lot of heavy bag work.
Also, it is all is task specific to martial arts. That would include the way I'd do weight training as well.
All basic weight training with a barbell (the meathead basics, bench, squat, deadlift, press and others) are task specific to martial arts.
Yeah(ish) but there are better ways of training weights for whatever you 'style' you do. Those basic weights are excellent for all around everything.
So, how does anyone who isn't a layabout manage to find time to dedicate to exercising?
My routine today:
0600: awake
0600 - 0630: SSS
0630: taking dog for morning constitutional
0645 - 0700: check work email while making coffee
0705 - 0715: drive to kennel to drop dog off for training
0720 - 0800: drive to office
0805 - 1305: work
1310 - 1400: lunch on drive home
1400 - 1700: work from home (actual work, not slacking)
1700 - 1730: drive to kennel to pick up dog and drive home
1745 - 1800: drive son to school for football- related meeting and return home
1800 - 1815: dinner (wife made butter chicken) and talk with wife and daughter
1815 - 1830: talk to wife
1830 - 1900: work teleconference with team in Australia
1930 - 2030: work teleconference with customers in Australia
2030 - 2130: poop, check personal email, surf internet, talk to wife
2130 - 2200: pick up son and friend from gym and come home
2215 - 0600: sleep
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 17, 2022, 07:17:07 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 03:48:25 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 17, 2022, 11:36:19 AM
I'm fundamentally a lazy man and I don't like exercising unless it augments something. So I work out for short periods 20 mins a day (generally) but at high intensity. A lot of heavy bag work.
Also, it is all is task specific to martial arts. That would include the way I'd do weight training as well.
All basic weight training with a barbell (the meathead basics, bench, squat, deadlift, press and others) are task specific to martial arts.
Yeah(ish) but there are better ways of training weights for whatever you 'style' you do. Those basic weights are excellent for all around everything.
I would love to hear the better ways of training weights for a given style. Sports specific weight training exercises are my favorite thing.
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 17, 2022, 09:42:51 PM
So, how does anyone who isn't a layabout manage to find time to dedicate to exercising?
My routine today:
0600: awake
0600 - 0630: SSS
0630: taking dog for morning constitutional
0645 - 0700: check work email while making coffee
0705 - 0715: drive to kennel to drop dog off for training
0720 - 0800: drive to office
0805 - 1305: work
1310 - 1400: lunch on drive home
1400 - 1700: work from home (actual work, not slacking)
1700 - 1730: drive to kennel to pick up dog and drive home
1745 - 1800: drive son to school for football- related meeting and return home
1800 - 1815: dinner (wife made butter chicken) and talk with wife and daughter
1815 - 1830: talk to wife
1830 - 1900: work teleconference with team in Australia
1930 - 2030: work teleconference with customers in Australia
2030 - 2130: poop, check personal email, surf internet, talk to wife
2130 - 2200: pick up son and friend from gym and come home
2215 - 0600: sleep
Easy, my dog is already trained, and I get up at 4:30.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 10:31:09 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 17, 2022, 07:17:07 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 03:48:25 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 17, 2022, 11:36:19 AM
I'm fundamentally a lazy man and I don't like exercising unless it augments something. So I work out for short periods 20 mins a day (generally) but at high intensity. A lot of heavy bag work.
Also, it is all is task specific to martial arts. That would include the way I'd do weight training as well.
All basic weight training with a barbell (the meathead basics, bench, squat, deadlift, press and others) are task specific to martial arts.
Yeah(ish) but there are better ways of training weights for whatever you 'style' you do. Those basic weights are excellent for all around everything.
I would love to hear the better ways of training weights for a given style. Sports specific weight training exercises are my favorite thing.
Just check out what the good clubs are doing. It all depends on what the user's end goal is, fitness, mass, speed, and endurance. For me, it's self-defense so I train accordingly and weights are only one part but even then they only augment my skills in specific areas that I want to be better in.
All weight training is great. But you can focus that training for more efficient results depending on your desired results.
This guy:
http://rosstraining.com/blog/
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 17, 2022, 10:43:49 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 10:31:09 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 17, 2022, 07:17:07 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 03:48:25 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 17, 2022, 11:36:19 AM
I'm fundamentally a lazy man and I don't like exercising unless it augments something. So I work out for short periods 20 mins a day (generally) but at high intensity. A lot of heavy bag work.
Also, it is all is task specific to martial arts. That would include the way I'd do weight training as well.
All basic weight training with a barbell (the meathead basics, bench, squat, deadlift, press and others) are task specific to martial arts.
Yeah(ish) but there are better ways of training weights for whatever you 'style' you do. Those basic weights are excellent for all around everything.
I would love to hear the better ways of training weights for a given style. Sports specific weight training exercises are my favorite thing.
Just check out what the good clubs are doing. It all depends on what the user's end goal is, fitness, mass, speed, and endurance. For me, it's self-defense so I train accordingly and weights are only one part but even then they only augment my skills in specific areas that I want to be better in.
All weight training is great. But you can focus that training for more efficient results depending on your desired results.
This guy:
http://rosstraining.com/blog/
What sort of weight training do you do to augment self defense? I have mentioned this before, but I am an expert martial artist (not my choice of words, but that is what I am after 30 years of kickboxing, boxing, and BJJ) and I am curious. I have seen ALOT of different things in places where I trained and practiced in all those places (of course the wrestling rooms focus on different things than a boxing gym) many interesting, many useful, and some outright bullshit.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 10:51:01 PM
This guy:
http://rosstraining.com/blog/
but I am an expert martial artist
[/quote]
I've been training over 30 years myself.
Did you not check that link out? That's the stuff right there... If you want to understand how to train smart he's what I would consider a true expert.
For the stuff, I'm interested in it closely mirrors any type of good boxing workout where you spend most of the time hitting heavy things.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 17, 2022, 11:03:07 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 10:51:01 PM
This guy:
http://rosstraining.com/blog/
but I am an expert martial artist
I've been training over 30 years myself.
Did you not check that link out? That's the stuff right there... If you want to understand how to train smart he's what I would consider a true expert.
For the stuff, I'm interested in it closely mirrors any type of good boxing workout where you spend most of the time hitting heavy things.
[/quote]
I did, it looked like a lot of the things I have seen over the years, as well as implemented in the training academies I owned and operated. My question was more specific, I was curious as to what weight training exercises you used for self defense focus (not exercises in general) as that piqued my curiosity.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 17, 2022, 09:42:51 PM
So, how does anyone who isn't a layabout manage to find time to dedicate to exercising?
My routine today:
0600: awake
0600 - 0630: SSS
0630: taking dog for morning constitutional
0645 - 0700: check work email while making coffee
0705 - 0715: drive to kennel to drop dog off for training
0720 - 0800: drive to office
0805 - 1305: work
1310 - 1400: lunch on drive home
1400 - 1700: work from home (actual work, not slacking)
1700 - 1730: drive to kennel to pick up dog and drive home
1745 - 1800: drive son to school for football- related meeting and return home
1800 - 1815: dinner (wife made butter chicken) and talk with wife and daughter
1815 - 1830: talk to wife
1830 - 1900: work teleconference with team in Australia
1930 - 2030: work teleconference with customers in Australia
2030 - 2130: poop, check personal email, surf internet, talk to wife
2130 - 2200: pick up son and friend from gym and come home
2215 - 0600: sleep
Easy, my dog is already trained, and I get up at 4:30.
I see you're being a helper... Getting up at 0430 means I have to go to bed around 2030 - not possible given all the other things going on for me.
Today is similar except I'm in the office all day. Friday is a full work from home day where I can get in a decent walk.
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 18, 2022, 07:01:01 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 17, 2022, 09:42:51 PM
So, how does anyone who isn't a layabout manage to find time to dedicate to exercising?
My routine today:
0600: awake
0600 - 0630: SSS
0630: taking dog for morning constitutional
0645 - 0700: check work email while making coffee
0705 - 0715: drive to kennel to drop dog off for training
0720 - 0800: drive to office
0805 - 1305: work
1310 - 1400: lunch on drive home
1400 - 1700: work from home (actual work, not slacking)
1700 - 1730: drive to kennel to pick up dog and drive home
1745 - 1800: drive son to school for football- related meeting and return home
1800 - 1815: dinner (wife made butter chicken) and talk with wife and daughter
1815 - 1830: talk to wife
1830 - 1900: work teleconference with team in Australia
1930 - 2030: work teleconference with customers in Australia
2030 - 2130: poop, check personal email, surf internet, talk to wife
2130 - 2200: pick up son and friend from gym and come home
2215 - 0600: sleep
Easy, my dog is already trained, and I get up at 4:30.
I see you're being a helper... Getting up at 0430 jeans is have to go to bed around 2030 - not possible given all the other things going on for me.
Today is similar except I'm in the office all day. Friday is a full work from home day where I can get in a decent walk.
We - I - don't have two hours in the evening working with an international team during their business hours. And I know you can't change that.
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 18, 2022, 07:01:01 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 17, 2022, 09:42:51 PM
So, how does anyone who isn't a layabout manage to find time to dedicate to exercising?
My routine today:
0600: awake
0600 - 0630: SSS
0630: taking dog for morning constitutional
0645 - 0700: check work email while making coffee
0705 - 0715: drive to kennel to drop dog off for training
0720 - 0800: drive to office
0805 - 1305: work
1310 - 1400: lunch on drive home
1400 - 1700: work from home (actual work, not slacking)
1700 - 1730: drive to kennel to pick up dog and drive home
1745 - 1800: drive son to school for football- related meeting and return home
1800 - 1815: dinner (wife made butter chicken) and talk with wife and daughter
1815 - 1830: talk to wife
1830 - 1900: work teleconference with team in Australia
1930 - 2030: work teleconference with customers in Australia
2030 - 2130: poop, check personal email, surf internet, talk to wife
2130 - 2200: pick up son and friend from gym and come home
2215 - 0600: sleep
Easy, my dog is already trained, and I get up at 4:30.
I see you're being a helper... Getting up at 0430 jeans is have to go to bed around 2030 - not possible given all the other things going on for me.
Today is similar except I'm in the office all day. Friday is a full work from home day where I can get in a decent walk.
I go to sleep between 2130 and 2215. So I am in essence being a helper. I find best to have 7 hours of sleep, but as long as I can snag 8 on days off once a week or so, I can function well on 6.5. It takes about 20-30 minutes to get enough exercise to be both beneficial and productive. If you have that schedule all 7 days every week...well then it won't be so helpful. If you get a day or two off every week, again a day or two of exercise (even if we extend to an hour) is extremely beneficial. I do think a lot of busy people with stretched schedules feel if they can not have a consistent thing through the week maybe do not look to alternatives (I have been guilty of doing so for a few years) to make time to geterdone. I simply suggest a slight wiggle in schedule during the week or days off and see how it goes. If you get no days off...well I tip the hat.
Plus, you did ask the question, I just gave an answer.
Edited to add: My suggestions are also largely tongue in cheek. You have a hell of schedule and if keeping it keeps you fit and happy, stick with it. If you did want to wiggle it, I think you could do so if you wanted to. Most of my adult working life has revolved around training and fitness to a degree as part of a career, so part of my job was exercise and I have a definite bias when it comes to seeing time to squeeze it in, which is not always realistic to other people and I prefer to try to offer a simple solution instead of extreme solutions (I realize getting up at 4:30 is not a practical suggestion, and I was semi joking...but it is what I do) if people are looking to fit it in. If they are not, I think that is fair too. If you are healthy and happy and the family is happy that is IMO the most important thing for any man to maintain.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 11:08:50 PM
as that piqued my curiosity.
Nothing really groundbreaking per se. In fact, it tends to be very low-fi.
If you've looked at Ross's program in depth you'd see that it's not going to be implemented in a well-kitted-out gym because a lot of the equipment is super low-tech or even modified by himself.
What I'm trying to say is to work smarter and focus it on your specific goal. I mean if my goal is self-defense I will spend most of my time punching and perhaps stand-up grappling. I won't waste a lot of my time learning stuff I wouldn't use like high kicks or any of that traditional kratty' shit.
And when I used to coach people I would make the syllabus laser-focused. And only really start exploring 'the rest' that's useful only when the basics are well understood.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 18, 2022, 07:56:46 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 11:08:50 PM
as that piqued my curiosity.
Nothing really groundbreaking per se. In fact, it tends to be very low-fi.
If you've looked at Ross's program in depth you'd see that it's not going to be implemented in a well-kitted-out gym because a lot of the equipment is super low-tech or even modified by himself.
What I'm trying to say is to work smarter and focus it on your specific goal. I mean if my goal is self-defense I will spend most of my time punching and perhaps stand-up grappling. I won't waste a lot of my time learning stuff I wouldn't use like high kicks or any of that traditional kratty' shit.
And when I used to coach people I would make the syllabus laser-focused. And only really start exploring 'the rest' that's useful only when the basics are well understood.
So no specialized weight training for self defense? That was my specific question since you suggested some specific application of use. I get what you seem to have meant was you focus your fitness endeavors around something with a practical application (bag work being both good for the heart, muscular endurance and at the same time sharpening practical skills). I did the same for years with both my striking and grappling. I would suggest you ever move stateside, spend more time learning to grapple on the ground, simply from statistics offering there will be a lot more people who are able to put you there (thanks to a proliferation of football (murican) and wrestling programs). Honestly I do not grapple or stay sharp standing for self defense. This is the USA and I have a far more reliable form of self defense if I am actually in a self defense situation. I think I still do all the kickboxing and grappling because I like it a lot and it is good exercise, and in my experience an exercise a person likes a lot tends to be the best exercise for them (because they will make the time to do it).
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 09:12:04 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 18, 2022, 07:56:46 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 11:08:50 PM
as that piqued my curiosity.
Nothing really groundbreaking per se. In fact, it tends to be very low-fi.
If you've looked at Ross's program in depth you'd see that it's not going to be implemented in a well-kitted-out gym because a lot of the equipment is super low-tech or even modified by himself.
What I'm trying to say is to work smarter and focus it on your specific goal. I mean if my goal is self-defense I will spend most of my time punching and perhaps stand-up grappling. I won't waste a lot of my time learning stuff I wouldn't use like high kicks or any of that traditional kratty' shit.
And when I used to coach people I would make the syllabus laser-focused. And only really start exploring 'the rest' that's useful only when the basics are well understood.
So no specialized weight training for self defense? That was my specific question since you suggested some specific application of use. I get what you seem to have meant was you focus your fitness endeavors around something with a practical application (bag work being both good for the heart, muscular endurance and at the same time sharpening practical skills). I did the same for years with both my striking and grappling. I would suggest you ever move stateside, spend more time learning to grapple on the ground, simply from statistics offering there will be a lot more people who are able to put you there (thanks to a proliferation of football (murican) and wrestling programs). Honestly I do not grapple or stay sharp standing for self defense. This is the USA and I have a far more reliable form of self defense if I am actually in a self defense situation. I think I still do all the kickboxing and grappling because I like it a lot and it is good exercise, and in my experience an exercise a person likes a lot tends to be the best exercise for them (because they will make the time to do it).
I don't know if you'd call them (the exercises) specific for self-defense. But they would be specific for improving one's specific skills. I mean, you could do a trad bench press with a barbell (a great exercise). But why do that when I want to improve my punching specifically? Yes, it would have benefits but if I was to use a heavy kettlebell and then punch at speed (even tho' it will appear slow in real time) while also turning my torso and shoulder and even my hip into it. I'm now specifically working speed, form, strength, and all the muscles I'd need to throw a right cross. Where a bench press wouldn't cover all that.
Yeah, the stats seem to indicate that a fight will often go to the ground (even in Europe). But that's mostly because a lot of people just can't punch hard enough. But we'd still certainly train for it as it's a very real possibility but just not like a dedicated art like BJJ which has great benefits (including for self-defense) but it is mostly designed for the ring. You could just learn a small portion of it, if you didn't really want to compete.
I'm a self-protection enthusiast. So I love this stuff as well as teaching it. So that's why I love to train for it. If you're not really into Mar Arts and you only do it for self-def most people will drop out. You've really got to love it to be any good at it. But most people are only ever interested in a 'quick fix' but in truth that doesn't really exist. There are a lot of cooks and grifters out there, unfortunately.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 18, 2022, 09:36:43 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 09:12:04 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 18, 2022, 07:56:46 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 17, 2022, 11:08:50 PM
as that piqued my curiosity.
Nothing really groundbreaking per se. In fact, it tends to be very low-fi.
If you've looked at Ross's program in depth you'd see that it's not going to be implemented in a well-kitted-out gym because a lot of the equipment is super low-tech or even modified by himself.
What I'm trying to say is to work smarter and focus it on your specific goal. I mean if my goal is self-defense I will spend most of my time punching and perhaps stand-up grappling. I won't waste a lot of my time learning stuff I wouldn't use like high kicks or any of that traditional kratty' shit.
And when I used to coach people I would make the syllabus laser-focused. And only really start exploring 'the rest' that's useful only when the basics are well understood.
So no specialized weight training for self defense? That was my specific question since you suggested some specific application of use. I get what you seem to have meant was you focus your fitness endeavors around something with a practical application (bag work being both good for the heart, muscular endurance and at the same time sharpening practical skills). I did the same for years with both my striking and grappling. I would suggest you ever move stateside, spend more time learning to grapple on the ground, simply from statistics offering there will be a lot more people who are able to put you there (thanks to a proliferation of football (murican) and wrestling programs). Honestly I do not grapple or stay sharp standing for self defense. This is the USA and I have a far more reliable form of self defense if I am actually in a self defense situation. I think I still do all the kickboxing and grappling because I like it a lot and it is good exercise, and in my experience an exercise a person likes a lot tends to be the best exercise for them (because they will make the time to do it).
I don't know if you'd call them (the exercises) specific for self-defense. But they would be specific for improving one's specific skills. I mean, you could do a trad bench press with a barbell (a great exercise). But why do that when I want to improve my punching specifically? Yes, it would have benefits but if I was to use a heavy kettlebell and then punch at speed (even tho' it will appear slow in real time) while also turning my torso and shoulder and even my hip into it. I'm now specifically working speed, form, strength, and all the muscles I'd need to throw a right cross. Where a bench press wouldn't cover all that.
Yeah, the stats seem to indicate that a fight will often go to the ground (even in Europe). But that's mostly because a lot of people just can't punch hard enough. But we'd still certainly train for it as it's a very real possibility but just not like a dedicated art like BJJ which has great benefits (including for self-defense) but it is mostly designed for the ring. You could just learn a small portion of it, if you didn't really want to compete.
I'm a self-protection enthusiast. So I love this stuff as well as teaching it. So that's why I love to train for it. If you're not really into Mar Arts and you only do it for self-def most people will drop out. You've really got to love it to be any good at it. But most people are only ever interested in a 'quick fix' but in truth that doesn't really exist. There are a lot of cooks and grifters out there, unfortunately.
BJJ is not, and was not designed for the ring. As seen at large today that is in fact true(the fact way too many people spend way too much time focused on using BJJ for BJJ competition and forgetting the whole reason the Gracies made a name in the 60's). Regarding BJJ competitions, one could argue BJJ in some cases is more and more geared just for BJJ competitions. This was certainly not always the case and is a common misconception among casual observers (or honestly modern BJJ does certainly give this vibe off big time). Punching hard is not why you end up on the ground against a D1 wrestler, and the USA is FULL of them (luckily most of em are finished street fighting). Agreed that drunken slobs who have never hit anything but a bag of chips is the reason most encounters end in a tussle on the ground, but my concerns were more around dealing with a specific problem you will not be able to punch out of (200 pound D1 wrestler is not a problem you can punch your way out of, at least not early) But religious matters aside, that was more the sort of question around punching I was asking. I have done lots of things and IME the resistance is for strength development and performance of the skill is for refining that strength into power and execution (meaning no weights for me throwing punches, I view that the same as a pitcher or basketball player training with a heavy ball...a waste of time), but my view is certainly not the only view and definitely not the best for everyone.
I would also argue a Squat and deadlift do a shitload more for punching power than a bench press.
I need to add more dog walking for both me and the doggies.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 11:27:02 AM
I would also argue a Squat and deadlift do a shitload more for punching power than a bench press.
Squats are awesome. I do those all the time amazing for one's lungs.
Why I like to train using a single kettlebell - is to not only get the benefits but it's great for teaching 'form' and mechanics for the actual punch.
I really like using heavy bands as well. But attached to the wall and you stand and punch with the resistance of the band. Great for speed and form too.
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 17, 2022, 09:42:51 PM
So, how does anyone who isn't a layabout manage to find time to dedicate to exercising?
My routine today:
0600: awake
0600 - 0630: SSS
0630: taking dog for morning constitutional
0645 - 0700: check work email while making coffee
0705 - 0715: drive to kennel to drop dog off for training
0720 - 0800: drive to office
0805 - 1305: work
1310 - 1400: lunch on drive home
1400 - 1700: work from home (actual work, not slacking)
1700 - 1730: drive to kennel to pick up dog and drive home
1745 - 1800: drive son to school for football- related meeting and return home
1800 - 1815: dinner (wife made butter chicken) and talk with wife and daughter
1815 - 1830: talk to wife
1830 - 1900: work teleconference with team in Australia
1930 - 2030: work teleconference with customers in Australia
2030 - 2130: poop, check personal email, surf internet, talk to wife
2130 - 2200: pick up son and friend from gym and come home
2215 - 0600: sleep
I work normal hours, from home, and don't spend hours a day in the car. Or try to get 8 hours sleep a night.
WTF is with your work pattern? 5 hours in the office, then 3 hours working at home, then 2 hours on teleconferences at night? 10 hour days, split up over the day preventing you getting anything else meaningful done, fuck that.
I have time to dedicate to exercise because I don't live to work, as you clearly do. Including the commute, you basically work 14 hour days, and sleep for around 8 hours. Leaving you about 2 hours of actual free time, so little wonder you can't fit exercise in.
Quote from: Kiero on August 19, 2022, 05:58:07 AM
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 17, 2022, 09:42:51 PM
So, how does anyone who isn't a layabout manage to find time to dedicate to exercising?
My routine today:
0600: awake
0600 - 0630: SSS
0630: taking dog for morning constitutional
0645 - 0700: check work email while making coffee
0705 - 0715: drive to kennel to drop dog off for training
0720 - 0800: drive to office
0805 - 1305: work
1310 - 1400: lunch on drive home
1400 - 1700: work from home (actual work, not slacking)
1700 - 1730: drive to kennel to pick up dog and drive home
1745 - 1800: drive son to school for football- related meeting and return home
1800 - 1815: dinner (wife made butter chicken) and talk with wife and daughter
1815 - 1830: talk to wife
1830 - 1900: work teleconference with team in Australia
1930 - 2030: work teleconference with customers in Australia
2030 - 2130: poop, check personal email, surf internet, talk to wife
2130 - 2200: pick up son and friend from gym and come home
2215 - 0600: sleep
I work normal hours, from home, and don't spend hours a day in the car. Or try to get 8 hours sleep a night.
WTF is with your work pattern? 5 hours in the office, then 3 hours working at home, then 2 hours on teleconferences at night? 10 hour days, split up over the day preventing you getting anything else meaningful done, fuck that.
I have time to dedicate to exercise because I don't live to work, as you clearly do. Including the commute, you basically work 14 hour days, and sleep for around 8 hours. Leaving you about 2 hours of actual free time, so little wonder you can't fit exercise in.
The half days in the office are lesser of 2 evils. My employer continues to allow people to telework except for those of us in a single office that gets a tax break from the state for being in an economically disadvantaged city (translation, help try and make this shithole city not so much of a shithole). In order to qualify for the tax break, we have to physically have an ass in a seat 60% of the work week. We have a dog and a wife that works and are not made of money, so we crate the dog at home half the day 2 days a week and send to doggy daycare 2 days a week. So - work full-day in the office Mon and Thu and half-day T/W. Friday is a full work from home day. If we could afford to send the food to DDC 3 days a week, I would just work 3 days in the office and 2 days at home. But we're not going to crate her for a full 8 hrs straight.
Believe me - I don't live to work. I just happen to have a job where my day ends at the same time as my customers (who are representatives of foreign governments and their contractors) are just starting their day. When I have to travel to those places (ramping back up to pre-covid rates of 1-2 weeks every quarter), I love Mondays because nothing distracts me in Sunday night while I'm trying to sleep. Monday night is when everyone back home is starting their week so I don't have a wall of email until Tuesday morning...
So what you are saying is..... You do have plenty of time to exercise on Fridays and weekends. Geterdone.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 19, 2022, 07:08:43 PM
So what you are saying is..... You do have plenty of time to exercise on Fridays and weekends. Geterdone.
Not always. Today I had a half day, so after errands were done I was able to get in a hour long walk before eating an early dinner, dropping my son off at 1620 to pre-game football meeting, picked up the dog at 5pm, came home, and then left for his football game. Sitting in parking lot now waiting for my wife and daughter to finish working the post game pizza party. Some Fridays are a full work day followed by volunteering to run concessions. High school football (while not as crazy as it is if Texas) is basically from 4pm to 10pm Friday from start of getting the boys there in time to the locker room until picking them after the post game stuff. Away games can even take longer due to the travel.
Tomorrow we have training with the dog in the morning then we'll be at the beach the rest of the weekend. I'll get exercise by proxy while at the beach - playing fetch with the dog, swimming, etc.
But my point is this: there are people who are all about the gym, tan, laundry lifestyle, or whose schedule otherwise permit then to spend an hour (or more) say the gym every day. I could too, if I didn't have familial obligations.
One of my mates always advocated staggered training throughout the day, mainly because he was so busy with his job and was on call a lot.
Basically, he would do sets of body exercises while waiting for the kettle to boil, or waiting for food to cook in the microwave, etc. Basically, whenever he had a few minutes and wasn't doing anything he'd be doing push-ups or something. So it never really ate into his day.
Not the best way to train, but it worked relatively well for him. I wouldn't have the discipline for that. I'd need a regular time and regime.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 11:27:02 AM
I would also argue a Squat and deadlift do a shitload more for punching power than a bench press.
I wouldn't know. What I do know is that I've trained a few cops and paramedics, and being stronger has kept them and their suspects/patients safer. Being stronger means they are less likely to injure themselves moving a patient or restraining a suspect, or just carrying around all the junk the bosses think is useful. Having a greater physical presence (adding muscle mass, improved posture) means the people they encounter are less likely to start trouble with them. As well, the improved confidence they get from the
process of training (doing difficult things they thought they couldn't do) also discourages people from messing with them.
So on the whole, being stronger means they're less likely to have confrontations, which as most people apart from YouTube commenters know, is the best self-defence of all.
Of course, if it's a fight you're in by
choice, whether for sport or street aggro, that's another matter. And again I'm not a fighter so I wouldn't know - but I do know enough that there are weight classes and gender splits in fighting for a reason.
The exact specifics of bench vs press vs squat or whatever, well that's not relevant for most. When a woman comes in on her first day and can't press the 20kg bar or squat 40kg, or a man 30 and 60 - the exact lift they need to do the best for their particular application of strength isn't really relevant, they're just weak overall.
3-6 months later when they've not only hit those numbers but doubled them it might be relevant.
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 19, 2022, 09:23:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 19, 2022, 07:08:43 PM
So what you are saying is..... You do have plenty of time to exercise on Fridays and weekends. Geterdone.
Not always. Today I had a half day, so after errands were done I was able to get in a hour long walk before eating an early dinner, dropping my son off at 1620 to pre-game 0reo, picked up the food at 5pm, came home, and then left for his football game. Sitting in parking lot now waiting for my wife and daughter to finish working the post game pizza party. Some Fridays are a full work day followed by volunteering to run concessions. High school football (while not as crazy as it is if Texas) is basically from 4pm to 10pm Friday from start of getting the boys there in time to the locker room until picking them after the post game stuff. Away games can even take longer due to the travel.
Tomorrow we have training with the dog in the morning then we'll be at the beach the rest of the weekend. I'll get exercise by proxy while at the beach - playing fetch with the dog, swimming, etc.
But my point is this: there are people who are all about the gym, tan, laundry lifestyle, or whose schedule otherwise permit then to spend an hour (or more) say the gym every day. I could too, if I didn't have familial obligations.
I am talking 3-4 hours a week here, not instagram steroid tanned fairy tales. I think there is room for something well below those fairy tales that is useful regarding a time obligation.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on August 19, 2022, 10:56:58 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 11:27:02 AM
I would also argue a Squat and deadlift do a shitload more for punching power than a bench press.
I wouldn't know. What I do know is that I've trained a few cops and paramedics, and being stronger has kept them and their suspects/patients safer. Being stronger means they are less likely to injure themselves moving a patient or restraining a suspect, or just carrying around all the junk the bosses think is useful. Having a greater physical presence (adding muscle mass, improved posture) means the people they encounter are less likely to start trouble with them. As well, the improved confidence they get from the process of training (doing difficult things they thought they couldn't do) also discourages people from messing with them.
So on the whole, being stronger means they're less likely to have confrontations, which as most people apart from YouTube commenters know, is the best self-defence of all.
Of course, if it's a fight you're in by choice, whether for sport or street aggro, that's another matter. And again I'm not a fighter so I wouldn't know - but I do know enough that there are weight classes and gender splits in fighting for a reason.
The exact specifics of bench vs press vs squat or whatever, well that's not relevant for most. When a woman comes in on her first day and can't press the 20kg bar or squat 40kg, or a man 30 and 60 - the exact lift they need to do the best for their particular application of strength isn't really relevant, they're just weak overall.
3-6 months later when they've not only hit those numbers but doubled them it might be relevant.
From a do know perspective, strong legs and hips matter more in anything expressing power in rotation (like a punch) of said hips and pivot of feet than a bench press. However I 100 percent agree that stronger people are more useful than weak people, and folks looking to start shit prefer weak to strong 1000 percent.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 20, 2022, 04:56:23 AM
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 19, 2022, 09:23:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 19, 2022, 07:08:43 PM
So what you are saying is..... You do have plenty of time to exercise on Fridays and weekends. Geterdone.
Not always. Today I had a half day, so after errands were done I was able to get in a hour long walk before eating an early dinner, dropping my son off at 1620 to pre-game football meeting, picked up the dog at 5pm, came home, and then left for his football game. Sitting in parking lot now waiting for my wife and daughter to finish working the post game pizza party. Some Fridays are a full work day followed by volunteering to run concessions. High school football (while not as crazy as it is if Texas) is basically from 4pm to 10pm Friday from start of getting the boys there in time to the locker room until picking them after the post game stuff. Away games can even take longer due to the travel.
Tomorrow we have training with the dog in the morning then we'll be at the beach the rest of the weekend. I'll get exercise by proxy while at the beach - playing fetch with the dog, swimming, etc.
But my point is this: there are people who are all about the gym, tan, laundry lifestyle, or whose schedule otherwise permit then to spend an hour (or more) say the gym every day. I could too, if I didn't have familial obligations.
I am talking 3-4 hours a week here, not instagram steroid tanned fairy tales. I think there is room for something well below those fairy tales that is useful regarding a time obligation.
That makes sense, oggsmash. As I think I've mentioned before, in my work I focus on the first 50% - in terms of fraction of world record. Take someone from their starting 10% of WR deadlift and 5km travel to 50%, and you've got a totally different person. Even 25% for the 60+ crowd.
And for the 3catcircuses of the world, the 25% doesn't take much. Without quibbling over a few seconds or kg here and there,
Women
Deadlift 0-60, 60-120, 120-180, 180-240kg
5km travel 56'+, 42-56', 28-42', 14-28'
Men
Deadlift 0-80, 80-160, 160-240, 240-320
5km travel 50'+, 38-50', 25-38', 13-25'
25-50% can be done on just a couple of workouts a week - indeed, some under-50s with a history of being more-or-less active can do it on their first day. It can be done with barbells, kettlebells, machines, bodyweight, whatever suits you. You just have to do it regularly - not hard or daily.
50-75% usually takes some focused effort. 75+% is serious athletes doing a 5x5 programme (5 days a week for at least 5 years).
But it's that 25-50% where you're going to feel training's really making a difference to your quality of life, any social sports you do, etc.
But either way, it's obvious 3catcircus needs a new job. Lots of people get sucked into jobs like that.
Something I have seen a lot of guys who promote strength training and seem more "hardcore" talk about is how they have an ever growing client list of people over 50 and really booming at 60+ who have never lifted any weights. The changes they talk about older people doing with a couple training sessions a week are as you say Kyle, life changing. I always concerned myself with breaking parallel with 500 on a squat and never thought how a little more strength makes a MASSIVE difference for a person who is 70 with regard to independence/mobility/quality of life.
It is to everyone's benefit not to suffer from sarcopenia as they age. Getting weaker is always bad.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 21, 2022, 08:13:02 AMI always concerned myself with breaking parallel with 500 on a squat and never thought how a little more strength makes a MASSIVE difference for a person who is 70 with regard to independence/mobility/quality of life.
For you as a 70yo it won't be life-changing, because you've established the foundation now. I suppose if you really tried you could fuck it all up with enough years of sitting around drinking beer, but that's unlikely.
But for someone who's been previously sedentary, just deadlifting bodyweight and being able to walk 3-4 miles in an hour - totally changes their life. Like I trained one guy, Shubroto (https://www.instagram.com/p/BkJuT90BYjK/). He comes along at 67yo, never lifted before, some significant health issues. Anyway, clearance from his cardiologists and all and off we go. A few months go by and he squats 40kg, presses 20kg, deadlifts 60kg.
"How are you feeling with it all?"
"Great! Each Sunday I play with my grandchildren. I used to fear picking them up, that something in my chest or back would pop. I no longer feel that fear - and more importantly, I don't see that fear in my son's eyes, he just says, "pick them up, dad.""
So we helped an old man have a better family day.
Compare: we had this young guy Matt come (https://www.instagram.com/p/BiLe4WBhXPP/), in 18 months he squatted 230, benched 135, deadlifted 250kg. Pretty good. Thing is, though: when he started he already squatted 165. Now, I'd like to think he progressed more quickly with us than he would have on his own, he had some fun competing and so on. More importantly, he got all this progress without even a minor injury along the way - and that's not usual, as oggsmash will know - if you push close to your personal limits for long enough, something will pop. But he didn't, and I believe that's to your credit.
But... he already squatted 165. Matt was going to be okay. But Shubroto? Without us, he's one of those blokes on a walking frame in his mid-70s.
Helping someone have a better day with their family vs someone pulling a quarter-tonne. Both are worthy things, but... well... First 50%.
And that really doesn't take a huge amount of dedication or time. Ideally, you do it when you're younger. It's muscular superannuation. The earlier you can lay it down and start seeing the interest compound on it, the better.
I said to a couple in their 60s tonight: "Either you lift weights now, or one of you will be lifting the other as their carer ten years from now. It's up to you whether you do it here or somewhere else, but you have to do it somewhere."
This shit's really important. If more people did it, we'd have a much smaller Medicare bill, that's for sure. Make time, boys and girls. Talk to a friend, eat 3 cups of vegies and go for a 30-60' brisk walk every day, squat to your chair for 3 lots of 10 times. Anything else is a bonus.
Funny thing is, I have never injured myself lifting weights, even serious strength training past a minor pull. I have been injured in sports training/competition and for the most part always when I was not as strong/conditioned. I do think keeping a competive powerlifter healthy says a lot about being smart though. I have certainly avoided injury weight training in my youth more through luck than smart. I honestly think for those who have never engaged, strength training is probably the best exercise hitting 50+ could decide to take up. But as mentioned by Kyle, seek a professional (and every one who is a certified trainer is IMO not always the right professional) who understands older lifters (especially older novices).
For me it's walking (try for every day but if I get in three days I don't feel so guilty LOL), and resistance/pull up assistance bands.
Walking, slow jog 5k on days I don't work and at least 3k those days I work plus walking around at work.
I've lost some kilos since June, so I must be doing something right.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on August 31, 2022, 10:27:59 AM
I've lost some kilos since June, so I must be doing something right.
Devil's Advocate: It could be cancer...
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 31, 2022, 10:29:55 AM
Quote from: Wntrlnd on August 31, 2022, 10:27:59 AM
I've lost some kilos since June, so I must be doing something right.
Devil's Advocate: It could be cancer...
It's NAHT a Tumah!
I'm honestly not that healthy nor have I been especially active for most my life, all things considered, but am working on that. Past a certain point excess fat and bad cholesterol combined with a sedentary lifestyle are not great for your health even if you're younger, and I've sort of come to terms with that now that the former two are becoming noticeable to both myself and medical professionals when they look into that. I have a friend I recently started going to the gym with more often, for about an hour a day most days a week. (Though we've stepped up to that level over a relatively short time period, so we'll see if it lasts.) Definitely helps motivate me not to slack off as much when there's someone else in play, and we try to hold each other accountable. I also walk around outside or just inside pretty frequently, though IDK to what extent that really counts. I think diet is also important, though, and I've definitely got a long way to go there. I've tried intermittent fasting to help with lowering absolute intake values and stop expanding my weight as much, and that's helped, but a lot of it comes down to willpower and eating the right stuff and the right portions, which is where I should probably focus next. Am optimistic that if I can stay the course what I'm currently doing will make a difference, though.
Quote from: KindaMeh on September 04, 2022, 01:57:42 PM
I'm honestly not that healthy nor have I been especially active for most my life, all things considered, but am working on that. Past a certain point excess fat and bad cholesterol combined with a sedentary lifestyle are not great for your health even if you're younger, and I've sort of come to terms with that now that the former two are becoming noticeable to both myself and medical professionals when they look into that. I have a friend I recently started going to the gym with more often, for about an hour a day most days a week. (Though we've stepped up to that level over a relatively short time period, so we'll see if it lasts.) Definitely helps motivate me not to slack off as much when there's someone else in play, and we try to hold each other accountable. I also walk around outside or just inside pretty frequently, though IDK to what extent that really counts. I think diet is also important, though, and I've definitely got a long way to go there. I've tried intermittent fasting to help with lowering absolute intake values and stop expanding my weight as much, and that's helped, but a lot of it comes down to willpower and eating the right stuff and the right portions, which is where I should probably focus next. Am optimistic that if I can stay the course what I'm currently doing will make a difference, though.
I think you are on the right track. The first step IMO is the biggest and most important step there is and you have taken that one. Calories are a math problem and should be simple, the thing is humans are creatures of habit and you will have to get comfortable being a little uncomfortable for a while, which IMO you will do. I think the saying I remember was nothing tastes as good as being fit feels, and the part no one tells you is you only realize how good fit feels when you spend time being unfit. You understand that now and seem properly motivated. It will soon be habit and you will much better for having stayed the course IMO.
Losing weight and maintaining a healthy weight is mostly about what you eat and your overall activity levels. Walking makes a massive difference to the latter.
Exercise is about strength, primarily, and the fact that the more muscle you carry, the more calories you burn doing everything else.
"For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."
Nevertheless, I do like to stretch my legs with a long walk while memorizing the good book.
Quote from: Tallifer on September 06, 2022, 08:37:49 AM
"For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."
Nevertheless, I do like to stretch my legs with a long walk while memorizing the good book.
That quote is cobblers, being strong keeps you young.
Quote from: Kiero on September 06, 2022, 08:38:58 AM
Quote from: Tallifer on September 06, 2022, 08:37:49 AM
"For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."
Nevertheless, I do like to stretch my legs with a long walk while memorizing the good book.
That quote is cobblers, being strong keeps you young.
Youth is earthly and fleeting, eternity is forever. "For all flesh is as grass, and the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withereth and the flower thereof fadeth away. But the word of the Lord endureth forever."
Quote from: Tallifer on September 06, 2022, 08:46:08 AM
Youth is earthly and fleeting, eternity is forever. "For all flesh is as grass, and the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withereth and the flower thereof fadeth away. But the word of the Lord endureth forever."
I've enjoyed over 20 years of "youth" already, with little sign of decline so far, so I call bullshit.
Walking.
Seriously, I lost a lot of weight from walking long distances every day and changing up my diet.
Quote from: Doc Sammy on September 16, 2022, 03:29:25 PM
Walking.
Seriously, I lost a lot of weight from walking long distances every day and changing up my diet.
Great, Reducing calories even a moderate amount and adding some activity every day does WONDERS for people maintaining their health and fitness. I think the big changes after they get more fit they see are in how they think and feel, which is IMO invaluable.
Quote from: Doc Sammy on September 16, 2022, 03:29:25 PM
Walking.
Seriously, I lost a lot of weight from walking long distances every day and changing up my diet.
I had good results from eating carefully and getting steady light exercise. What worked well for me was to figure out how to lose maybe a pound or two every month, while not being on a diet. It was a combination of simple nutrition like "meat and two vegetables for dinner", cutting out snacking, getting a good night's sleep, taking a long walk maybe three times a week. Because if you can slowly lose weight without it being a burden, you can keep it up and eventually lose significant weight.
Losing/maintaining weight is only half the story, though. Strength is what will get you through old age vital and mobile.
Weight loss is the number one thing 70% of the population have to focus on. You don't need a lot of strength to keep you going. That's against my business interests to say, since I'm a barbell coach, not a weight loss one. But it's true.
Now, once people make it to old age, strength will keep them independent and all that. But they have to get to old age first, and your typical obese diabetic, or overweight pre-diabetic, isn't going to get there.
Fortunately it's not either/or. A couple of lifting sessions a week means 100 a year, 1,000 in 10 years. That needn't take a lot of time, and will add up.
I'm in my early 40s. I'm not overweight (never have been), have no chronic conditions, am not on medication for anything, don't take over the counter painkillers for some chronic injury, my knees and lower back are pain-free.
This apparently makes me a marvel compared to most people my age and even younger, who are already physically broken. How they're going to cope in old age, I don't know.
Quote from: Kiero on October 01, 2022, 10:24:43 AM
I'm in my early 40s. I'm not overweight (never have been), have no chronic conditions, am not on medication for anything, don't take over the counter painkillers for some chronic injury, my knees and lower back are pain-free.
This apparently makes me a marvel compared to most people my age and even younger, who are already physically broken. How they're going to cope in old age, I don't know.
Pretty easy answer, squat rack now or suffer later.
My lifting routine is extremely simple, and not a whole lot of volume (I never do more than 9 work sets in the gym on a training day, and there are only 3 training days a week). Based around a few exercises Barbell Squats, Bench press (this is a recent change from doing inclines, I started with inclines to control the stress on my recovering torn pectoral), Standing press, Dead lift, Power Clean, and chin ups.
I have not returned to where I was in my late 20's, but I feel much better overall and my progress has been almost linear for months now as I recover lost strength. I plan to start back more vigorous martial arts training again (for the past few months I did no kick boxing or grappling to allow my strength training to have all of my body's recovery cycle as I push that a bit) after the new year and my linear progress has leveled off and I modify my lifting around such training.
I always think whatever exercise people enjoy is the best exercise (mainly because the ones you enjoy you will do consistently) but as I age I do see a much bigger value in strength training for people getting older (40+) that I certainly did not consider when younger. So you older folks out there not doing the barbell exercises....do yourself a favor and find someone to teach you what to do to prevent injury and give it a try. Even 6 months worth of dedicated effort can give you some life changing benefits at advanced age.
Rock climbing and biking are probably my favorite. Otherwise I prefer free weights or just hard work. Seriously nothing is better for getting in shape than manual labor.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 06, 2022, 04:12:02 AM
My lifting routine is extremely simple, and not a whole lot of volume (I never do more than 9 work sets in the gym on a training day, and there are only 3 training days a week). Based around a few exercises Barbell Squats, Bench press (this is a recent change from doing inclines, I started with inclines to control the stress on my recovering torn pectoral), Standing press, Dead lift, Power Clean, and chin ups.
I have not returned to where I was in my late 20's, but I feel much better overall and my progress has been almost linear for months now as I recover lost strength. I plan to start back more vigorous martial arts training again (for the past few months I did no kick boxing or grappling to allow my strength training to have all of my body's recovery cycle as I push that a bit) after the new year and my linear progress has leveled off and I modify my lifting around such training.
I always think whatever exercise people enjoy is the best exercise (mainly because the ones you enjoy you will do consistently) but as I age I do see a much bigger value in strength training for people getting older (40+) that I certainly did not consider when younger. So you older folks out there not doing the barbell exercises....do yourself a favor and find someone to teach you what to do to prevent injury and give it a try. Even 6 months worth of dedicated effort can give you some life changing benefits at advanced age.
50+ here, Can confirm.
There are a couple of fun ones I follow on IG. One bloke takes his deadlift bar out to somewhere in the wild and deadlifts away.
https://www.instagram.com/discoverydeadlift/
and there's a woman who believes in simply making movement part of your day, building your house to encourage it, etc.
https://www.instagram.com/nutritiousmovement/
Man was not made to sit at a desk all day, or hunched over a phone.
Hey Kyle, or anybody with a sound suggestions.
I'm still working at the chemical plant, but on long product runs I'm not turning heavy valves as often as I thought I would and am stuck at a monitoring station watching a computer screen. I'd like to get back into a healthy shape but don't know what exercises I should incorporate in my daily work routine. We have lots of stairs and ladders that I can climb, but the floors are pre-stressed concrete and I have to wear safety shoes while at work. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 07, 2022, 05:44:48 AM
Hey Kyle, or anybody with a sound suggestions.
I'm still working at the chemical plant, but on long product runs I'm not turning heavy valves as often as I thought I would and am stuck at a monitoring station watching a computer screen. I'd like to get back into a healthy shape but don't know what exercises I should incorporate in my daily work routine. We have lots of stairs and ladders that I can climb, but the floors are pre-stressed concrete and I have to wear safety shoes while at work. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.
I'd start with bodyweight exercises. You can do pushups & squats pretty easily anywhere with no equipment. If you've got anything secure overhead (e.g. ladders) you might be able to do some hanging / pullup exercises as well. A sturdy chair or bench is good for step-up exercises or dips.
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 07, 2022, 05:44:48 AM
Hey Kyle, or anybody with a sound suggestions.
I'm still working at the chemical plant, but on long product runs I'm not turning heavy valves as often as I thought I would and am stuck at a monitoring station watching a computer screen. I'd like to get back into a healthy shape but don't know what exercises I should incorporate in my daily work routine. We have lots of stairs and ladders that I can climb, but the floors are pre-stressed concrete and I have to wear safety shoes while at work. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.
My best advice would be to exercise at a gym with supervision. I say this because the sort that would be the most impactful for you at this point is going to be strength training with a load. I do think as Zelen suggested the BW exercises are great too, because you can do them and get them done in just minutes. I suggest going right to overload strength training in a more formal environment for two reasons, when you show up to train that is your only goal and it gets done, two is that you will feel a MUCH bigger difference in overall body function and competence with a small amount of strength training that will probably lead to better energy, mobility, and motivation and you will find yourself making the time to do other physical activities like walking, hiking, biking, etc outside of work. If my estimate on age is correct you only need 2 days of getting it in to reap great benefits that will spread to everything else you do physically.
I'm with ogg on this. 2 days a week strength training is fine for just about everyone, daily walk for cardiovascular health. You tend to see advice for 3 days a week, and though it's 50% more time it's not 50% better results, more like 20-30% in under-50s, no difference for over-50s (slower recovery, so if they do 3pw they have to go easier, net result same as 2pw hard). The reason the 3pw is advised anyway is because everyone will miss some sessions for whatever reason, if you miss 1 of 3pw it's no problem, if you miss 1 of 2pw then it's a week between sessions, things feel hard, pretty soon you miss that second one, too, and eventually bail. But if you can do 2pw regularly, all good.
It works. Curtis is in IT, in his 40s, an online gamer, and lifts 3pw pretty steadily, just squatted 150kg for some triples (https://www.instagram.com/p/CkuLzfzDjPo/). Makes his life better.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 08, 2022, 08:17:33 PM
I'm with ogg on this. 2 days a week strength training is fine for just about everyone, daily walk for cardiovascular health. You tend to see advice for 3 days a week, and though it's 50% more time it's not 50% better results, more like 20-30% in under-50s, no difference for over-50s (slower recovery, so if they do 3pw they have to go easier, net result same as 2pw hard). The reason the 3pw is advised anyway is because everyone will miss some sessions for whatever reason, if you miss 1 of 3pw it's no problem, if you miss 1 of 2pw then it's a week between sessions, things feel hard, pretty soon you miss that second one, too, and eventually bail. But if you can do 2pw regularly, all good.
It works. Curtis is in IT, in his 40s, an online gamer, and lifts 3pw pretty steadily, just squatted 150kg for some triples (https://www.instagram.com/p/CkuLzfzDjPo/). Makes his life better.
When I competitively powerlifted, I did A LOT of volume...back in August I broke my leg running (don't run at 4AM in the dark and hit a pothole, gents), so could only really do upper body for the past couple months. Since it was such a pain in the ass to go to the gym with a dumbass boot, I went much more sporadically, max of four or five days a week, sometimes only two. I noticed a definitive difference between weeks when I was only focusing on primary lifts once or twice vs. lots of volume and accessory work: I got stronger with less. It probably has something to do with close to 30 years of lifting and CNS blah blah blah, but yeah, I'm already closing in on PR ranges at this weight for press and bench. Whenever I get the clear I'm going to start squatting and doing deadlifts again, but for now I use a leg press machine and I doubled the weight in about a month already. Plus as you stated it is far easier to stick to that schedule, especially when you factor in two young kids, FT job, school, whatever.
If someone's been consistent for months or years, doing something different can improve their performance. We know that people who strength train will run better and get injured less often, but it's also true that people with better cardiovascular fitness have fewer injuries in strength training.
If I had my ideal way for my gym, I'd set it up like university. You'd do 12 week terms with a rest week after each. 3 terms would be basic barbell stuff, then the fourth term would be something different. If you were powerlifting (squat, bench, deadlift), you now do weightlifting (snatch, clean & jerk). Or you run. Or do kettlebells. Or play tennis. Whatever. And of course vice versa, the soccer player who spends 12 weeks a year just lifting is going to do themselves some good. You then return to your primary interest better at it, and feeling fresh and still keen on it - rather then grinding away and getting sick of it.
The other thing is that most people who get injured and return to their primary interest actually end up better at it. That's because the injury makes them stop, which gives them a rest to recover other non-injured parts too, but also to reassess what's helping them and what's not.
Whether with formal breaks and changes put in, or forced in because of injury, you return to your primary interest with some insights from the other one.
The same of course applies to gaming. If for example you normally play D&D and then spend a few months playing Traveller, you come back to D&D with some insights, and play D&D better.
Quote from: Brad on November 29, 2022, 05:26:22 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 08, 2022, 08:17:33 PM
I'm with ogg on this. 2 days a week strength training is fine for just about everyone, daily walk for cardiovascular health. You tend to see advice for 3 days a week, and though it's 50% more time it's not 50% better results, more like 20-30% in under-50s, no difference for over-50s (slower recovery, so if they do 3pw they have to go easier, net result same as 2pw hard). The reason the 3pw is advised anyway is because everyone will miss some sessions for whatever reason, if you miss 1 of 3pw it's no problem, if you miss 1 of 2pw then it's a week between sessions, things feel hard, pretty soon you miss that second one, too, and eventually bail. But if you can do 2pw regularly, all good.
It works. Curtis is in IT, in his 40s, an online gamer, and lifts 3pw pretty steadily, just squatted 150kg for some triples (https://www.instagram.com/p/CkuLzfzDjPo/). Makes his life better.
When I competitively powerlifted, I did A LOT of volume...back in August I broke my leg running (don't run at 4AM in the dark and hit a pothole, gents), so could only really do upper body for the past couple months. Since it was such a pain in the ass to go to the gym with a dumbass boot, I went much more sporadically, max of four or five days a week, sometimes only two. I noticed a definitive difference between weeks when I was only focusing on primary lifts once or twice vs. lots of volume and accessory work: I got stronger with less. It probably has something to do with close to 30 years of lifting and CNS blah blah blah, but yeah, I'm already closing in on PR ranges at this weight for press and bench. Whenever I get the clear I'm going to start squatting and doing deadlifts again, but for now I use a leg press machine and I doubled the weight in about a month already. Plus as you stated it is far easier to stick to that schedule, especially when you factor in two young kids, FT job, school, whatever.
it was the same for me when I was competing. I also am old and almost ALL the programs and articles and information back then about how much volume you needed to progress came from people who were both extremely genetically gifted and juiced to the gills. I am not so close to PRs yet(and honestly the bench press i dabbled with...but after pec surgery I might just stick to dips and press is my new big upper body compound), but 16 weeks back to squatting and I am getting towards sniffing distance of being as strong as I ever was (well, another 12 percent or so off on squat and deadlift, 10-12 percent seems like a lot at this stage) at age 51. I have a similar issue that makes it hard to determine how much is simple "muscle memory" and how much more effective less volume is. I do have the case of my brother who is 49 who has followed the same routine with me for 16 weeks who is right now the strongest he has ever been (he was not insanely strong before, but he has lifted weights on and off for years doing the "bro splits") by a good ways. I do think there will be a need for more volume if I wanted to create a new baseline, but I think many of the things I lacked focus on as a teen/20's/30's person was the need for more sleep and proper nutrition.
I lost easy access to a gym for a while and finally started running. Take One ended in an embarrassing amount of backpain. Research suggested I needed to improve core strength. Some planks later, with Take Two, I managed to hit 5k runs.
But I can't say I ever fell in love with running. Now I am back to living in a building with a gym in it, I find the cross-trainer is the easiest thing to fit into my day, especially because I can read while doing it.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 30, 2022, 06:18:08 AM
it was the same for me when I was competing. I also am old and almost ALL the programs and articles and information back then about how much volume you needed to progress came from people who were both extremely genetically gifted and juiced to the gills. I am not so close to PRs yet(and honestly the bench press i dabbled with...but after pec surgery I might just stick to dips and press is my new big upper body compound), but 16 weeks back to squatting and I am getting towards sniffing distance of being as strong as I ever was (well, another 12 percent or so off on squat and deadlift, 10-12 percent seems like a lot at this stage) at age 51. I have a similar issue that makes it hard to determine how much is simple "muscle memory" and how much more effective less volume is. I do have the case of my brother who is 49 who has followed the same routine with me for 16 weeks who is right now the strongest he has ever been (he was not insanely strong before, but he has lifted weights on and off for years doing the "bro splits") by a good ways. I do think there will be a need for more volume if I wanted to create a new baseline, but I think many of the things I lacked focus on as a teen/20's/30's person was the need for more sleep and proper nutrition.
What kind of program are you running? I'm 48 now so interested to see other non-young dude routines are effective. Dips/press upper body is super effective in my experience. If you can press your body weight, you're probably going to have near elite levels of upper body strength. One thing I'll say is that whenever I drink, lifts are affected for days...that was never the case 10 years ago.
I really wonder sometimes what the idolent think is going to happen when they hit 70-odd. Are they hoping they can trade in the broken body they've neglected for half a century for a healthier one?
Quote from: Kiero on November 30, 2022, 07:54:34 AM
I really wonder sometimes what the idolent think is going to happen when they hit 70-odd. Are they hoping they can trade in the broken body they've neglected for half a century for a healthier one?
1. They don't think that far ahead, or expect to be painlessly dead by then.
2. They expect science - transhumanist science in particular - to render the issue moot.
Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2022, 07:43:36 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 30, 2022, 06:18:08 AM
it was the same for me when I was competing. I also am old and almost ALL the programs and articles and information back then about how much volume you needed to progress came from people who were both extremely genetically gifted and juiced to the gills. I am not so close to PRs yet(and honestly the bench press i dabbled with...but after pec surgery I might just stick to dips and press is my new big upper body compound), but 16 weeks back to squatting and I am getting towards sniffing distance of being as strong as I ever was (well, another 12 percent or so off on squat and deadlift, 10-12 percent seems like a lot at this stage) at age 51. I have a similar issue that makes it hard to determine how much is simple "muscle memory" and how much more effective less volume is. I do have the case of my brother who is 49 who has followed the same routine with me for 16 weeks who is right now the strongest he has ever been (he was not insanely strong before, but he has lifted weights on and off for years doing the "bro splits") by a good ways. I do think there will be a need for more volume if I wanted to create a new baseline, but I think many of the things I lacked focus on as a teen/20's/30's person was the need for more sleep and proper nutrition.
What kind of program are you running? I'm 48 now so interested to see other non-young dude routines are effective. Dips/press upper body is super effective in my experience. If you can press your body weight, you're probably going to have near elite levels of upper body strength. One thing I'll say is that whenever I drink, lifts are affected for days...that was never the case 10 years ago.
I do an age modified version of starting strength program by Mark Rippetoe. I was doing the "normal" novice program (I find this to be very good to return to former levels of strength, but I was involved in activities that sapped my recovery from lifting for years and I have not lifted weights for almost 8 years at the point I was given the go ahead to push myself after pectoral repair surgery) which involved a linear progression and 3 workouts a week, all of which started with squats that progressed every workout. I was able to tolerate this for about 10 weeks and I backed off to a 1-2 schedule (I lift weights every 3rd day, so one week every 3 I have 3 workouts but most weeks it is two per week) for the past 6 weeks (the squats that often seemed to wear on some part of my legs that consistently wanted to remind me I have not squatted in years) and I feel well recovered now that I have to push a good deal more that the squat workouts are over 360lb.
Once I return to a baseline that I feel will prevent stupid injuries while engaging in BJJ and kickboxing, I am not sure what sort of routine I will follow. I feel good and I am curious if I can cross a few PR lines over the next full year. The program centers around Squats, deadlifts, press, bench press, power cleans, and chin ups. I substituted inclines for flat bench for 10 or so weeks and went to the flat bench once I felt the direct effort on the pectoral would be safe. I feel odd doing flat bench (a lot of it is psychological wondering if the pec tendon will snap...no real chance of this, but blowing that pectoral out sidelined me for a loooong while thanks to covid) and I think the press is more useful for athletic expression any way. So I just do dips as the stand in for the bench press.
Rippetoe is a bit of a blow hard and extremely opinionated, but I have found that after trying out what he suggests....he is right about lots of things. He also has an intermediate routine (that is more volume and he flat out says if you are over 40 it will kill you if followed as written) that I may try to install after I run back towards the former numbers. There are old guy versions of the intermediate routines he presents, but at that point I may be back to rolling around and kickboxing enough I would be happy with simple maintenance, especially if I am at PR levels of the past.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 30, 2022, 12:04:02 PMI do an age modified version of starting strength program by Mark Rippetoe. I was doing the "normal" novice program (I find this to be very good to return to former levels of strength, but I was involved in activities that sapped my recovery from lifting for years and I have not lifted weights for almost 8 years at the point I was given the go ahead to push myself after pectoral repair surgery) which involved a linear progression and 3 workouts a week, all of which started with squats that progressed every workout. I was able to tolerate this for about 10 weeks and I backed off to a 1-2 schedule (I lift weights every 3rd day, so one week every 3 I have 3 workouts but most weeks it is two per week) for the past 6 weeks (the squats that often seemed to wear on some part of my legs that consistently wanted to remind me I have not squatted in years) and I feel well recovered now that I have to push a good deal more that the squat workouts are over 360lb.
Once I return to a baseline that I feel will prevent stupid injuries while engaging in BJJ and kickboxing, I am not sure what sort of routine I will follow. I feel good and I am curious if I can cross a few PR lines over the next full year. The program centers around Squats, deadlifts, press, bench press, power cleans, and chin ups. I substituted inclines for flat bench for 10 or so weeks and went to the flat bench once I felt the direct effort on the pectoral would be safe. I feel odd doing flat bench (a lot of it is psychological wondering if the pec tendon will snap...no real chance of this, but blowing that pectoral out sidelined me for a loooong while thanks to covid) and I think the press is more useful for athletic expression any way. So I just do dips as the stand in for the bench press.
Rippetoe is a bit of a blow hard and extremely opinionated, but I have found that after trying out what he suggests....he is right about lots of things. He also has an intermediate routine (that is more volume and he flat out says if you are over 40 it will kill you if followed as written) that I may try to install after I run back towards the former numbers. There are old guy versions of the intermediate routines he presents, but at that point I may be back to rolling around and kickboxing enough I would be happy with simple maintenance, especially if I am at PR levels of the past.
I own Practical Programming and Starting Strength and have used them for routines over the years; good books. I ran Texas Method on and off over a couple years and the burn out after 6 months was inevitable...doubt I could handle that today. Oddly, though, I ran a modified Smolov for bench a couple years ago and it was fine, same with a deadlift routine that is just a massive amount of volume. Honestly I think it's just squats that end up killing you with all the volume.
Yeah the books are good. I never bothered with the Texas method after I ran out the novice routine 8 years ago to return back to a baseline of strength (I really had not lifted weights for a decade prior to that as rolling 4-6 days a week and tossing in pad work and sparring did not allow for much recovery, so it was BW exercises to maintain a bit of strength) while I had a few months where I could not grapple or spar. Even on paper it (texas method) looked like something that would put me in a hole I would never get out of recovery wise when combining my age (almost 44) and grappling 4 days a week average. The novice run for a few months 8 years ago had put me back to a BW press, 455x5 squat and a 515x5 deadlift. The pectoral that finally blew years later was showing me warning signs then, so I did very little bench press which in the end I do not know how much difference it made.
Now I am older, can opt in and out of grappling frequency so I might ride a moderate intermediate routine for a while once I am leveled out on "return to form" gains. I would like to get my press back over 250 and power clean over 275 again, but I also realize with age the likelihood of hitting those without "hormone treatment" is unlikely. I honestly am just glad I feel pretty good again moving about after having a looong time where I was pretty limited in exercise (rode my bicycle to death) and really laid about for too long. I might not even get my DL and squat back where they were 8 years ago. I have met my goal for now though to just get my body integrity back to a point where I won't be getting stupid nagging injuries grappling or kickboxing where the battle ship was just too brittle and rusty. Plenty of regular nagging injuries to get doing those activities I didnt want to develop some where my CNS would react in a way my decrepit body could not withstand.
But regarding the texas method....it looks like a recipe for burnout and something I would probably not do for more than a 12 week run. Any experience with 5-3-1? I have been reading his books and it looks intriguing...the guy seems to have a similar mindset to mine (and honestly rippetoes) in that he is lifting weights to be a better human machine at this point than solely to see how much he can squat with a suit on or bench with a shirt on. I find I just want the machine to last me a while at a functional level.
I started almost three years ago with Starting Strength. But I knew that I needed a live coach, and found one. Not only was he the right coach, and worth every penny, but he's now also a good friend.
Once you've moved past novice lifting, your training should fit your goals. A good coach will help there, too. If you don't have one, the co-author of Practical Programming 3rd edition, Andy Baker, has an online operation that ranges from fill-in-the-blank training plans to individual coaching. Andy is not my coach, but my coach draws on Andy's experience in his own coaching. In particular, Andy has a rotation he calls "8-5-2" that my coach is using for programming my lifting, and I enjoy it a lot.
Quote from: oggsmash on November 30, 2022, 10:45:42 PM
Any experience with 5-3-1?
That's some good lifting. I checked my "records" (for whatever reason I have kept a PDF or Word doc of every routine I've run since 2002) and I did 5-3-1 in 2010, 2012, and again in 2017. Mainly as a way to mix it up and alleviate boredom I suppose. I think it's good for older people, mostly because of the higher percentage singles, which is more akin to Oly lifting, but I'm not any sort of expert. I will say he recommends quite a bit of accessory work, which can be obnoxious at times when you've just spent an hour doing heavy as fuck squats. That said, here's a good calc: https://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator
If you doing lots of BJJ or whatever, I'll throw this out there as a possible rec: Body Beast. I know it's some kitschy nonsense tv workout, but I have done it multiple times and it's a lot of fun. Plus lower chance of injury due to using only dumbbells. Unfortunately, unless you're gonna go the TRT route, you won't gain much strength if you're over about 25 years old due to it being an almost purely body building-oriented routine. But like I said, it's fun and I think you'd be less gassed if you're throwing in martial arts during the week as well. For someone with zero experience, it is actually about as good a routine as you can run without any sort of coaching due to how it's structured.
Quote from: RandyB on November 30, 2022, 10:55:57 PM
I started almost three years ago with Starting Strength. But I knew that I needed a live coach, and found one. Not only was he the right coach, and worth every penny, but he's now also a good friend.
Once you've moved past novice lifting, your training should fit your goals. A good coach will help there, too. If you don't have one, the co-author of Practical Programming 3rd edition, Andy Baker, has an online operation that ranges from fill-in-the-blank training plans to individual coaching. Andy is not my coach, but my coach draws on Andy's experience in his own coaching. In particular, Andy has a rotation he calls "8-5-2" that my coach is using for programming my lifting, and I enjoy it a lot.
Link to 8-5-2? Guessing it's just a higher volume 5-3-1?
Here's his high level overview. He explains it far better than I could summarize.
https://www.andybaker.com/why-the-8-5-2-program-works-in-a-nutshell/
Quote from: Brad on December 01, 2022, 04:11:09 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on November 30, 2022, 10:45:42 PM
Any experience with 5-3-1?
That's some good lifting. I checked my "records" (for whatever reason I have kept a PDF or Word doc of every routine I've run since 2002) and I did 5-3-1 in 2010, 2012, and again in 2017. Mainly as a way to mix it up and alleviate boredom I suppose. I think it's good for older people, mostly because of the higher percentage singles, which is more akin to Oly lifting, but I'm not any sort of expert. I will say he recommends quite a bit of accessory work, which can be obnoxious at times when you've just spent an hour doing heavy as fuck squats. That said, here's a good calc: https://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator
If you doing lots of BJJ or whatever, I'll throw this out there as a possible rec: Body Beast. I know it's some kitschy nonsense tv workout, but I have done it multiple times and it's a lot of fun. Plus lower chance of injury due to using only dumbbells. Unfortunately, unless you're gonna go the TRT route, you won't gain much strength if you're over about 25 years old due to it being an almost purely body building-oriented routine. But like I said, it's fun and I think you'd be less gassed if you're throwing in martial arts during the week as well. For someone with zero experience, it is actually about as good a routine as you can run without any sort of coaching due to how it's structured.
Quote from: RandyB on November 30, 2022, 10:55:57 PM
I started almost three years ago with Starting Strength. But I knew that I needed a live coach, and found one. Not only was he the right coach, and worth every penny, but he's now also a good friend.
Once you've moved past novice lifting, your training should fit your goals. A good coach will help there, too. If you don't have one, the co-author of Practical Programming 3rd edition, Andy Baker, has an online operation that ranges from fill-in-the-blank training plans to individual coaching. Andy is not my coach, but my coach draws on Andy's experience in his own coaching. In particular, Andy has a rotation he calls "8-5-2" that my coach is using for programming my lifting, and I enjoy it a lot.
Link to 8-5-2? Guessing it's just a higher volume 5-3-1?
I might take a look at it once I taper off. I did a faddish routine years ago..P90x? I did enjoy it and it complemented the other things I had going on because I think the CNS recovery is on a much lower scale. I am a fan of the barbell if I have to do anything under resistance though, and now being older I like the idea of getting into and out of the gym in a timely manner. Thinking back I burnt a lot of time on what could have been progress with lack of sleep( military sleep schedule for a young man is as destructive as it gets IMO), poor nutrition, over training with too much volume, and some party time mixed in during the week. Youth can cover a lot of goof ups. I will take a look at it though, I find liking something at this point is the biggest key for me to stick to exercise over even effectiveness. At least to a degree, because to be honest if someone told me today I never had to do a barbell squat or set of 5 deadlift I would not miss them even a little.
Now for the resistance training question, any of you decided to get TRT/hormone therapy yet? I read a good deal about it and do not have the symptoms (for need of treatment) ...but I also realize there is a preferred range to be in for the activities I engage in. No need for anyone to go too deep on something they feel is private, I am just curious as to experience with, even if it was a friend who did it. I have a few people I know who get the treatment, and all of them swear by it.
There's a place in town that does it, and I personally know a guy who did it, we used to work out together a couple years ago at the gym. He's an experienced lifter (actually worked as a strength coach for a Div 1 football team), and pretty close to my age. Basically he was recovering like an 18 year old and the strength gain was pretty substantial in such a short amount of time. I have been considering it even though my test levels are "normal" for my age, but am worried it'll be too much of a good thing and I'll get addicted. Not naming names, but I know a couple bodybuilders and they have all told me directly to never ride the bike unless I am certain I enjoy cycling in perpetuity because the appeal to keep going is so strong. I dunno...I was thinking of trying it out next year just to see what happens, if so I'll make a post about it.
Quote from: Brad on December 01, 2022, 10:27:36 AM
There's a place in town that does it, and I personally know a guy who did it, we used to work out together a couple years ago at the gym. He's an experienced lifter (actually worked as a strength coach for a Div 1 football team), and pretty close to my age. Basically he was recovering like an 18 year old and the strength gain was pretty substantial in such a short amount of time. I have been considering it even though my test levels are "normal" for my age, but am worried it'll be too much of a good thing and I'll get addicted. Not naming names, but I know a couple bodybuilders and they have all told me directly to never ride the bike unless I am certain I enjoy cycling in perpetuity because the appeal to keep going is so strong. I dunno...I was thinking of trying it out next year just to see what happens, if so I'll make a post about it.
I get similar reports. My problem with the "normal range" is it is a huge fricking range. I am pretty sure 300ng/dl is not going to feel the same as 900ng/dl. I am also not so sure medical science knows what the normal range is considering all the factors in modern life that lower test levels from what they might have been 100 years ago.
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 11:49:09 AM
Quote from: Brad on December 01, 2022, 10:27:36 AM
There's a place in town that does it, and I personally know a guy who did it, we used to work out together a couple years ago at the gym. He's an experienced lifter (actually worked as a strength coach for a Div 1 football team), and pretty close to my age. Basically he was recovering like an 18 year old and the strength gain was pretty substantial in such a short amount of time. I have been considering it even though my test levels are "normal" for my age, but am worried it'll be too much of a good thing and I'll get addicted. Not naming names, but I know a couple bodybuilders and they have all told me directly to never ride the bike unless I am certain I enjoy cycling in perpetuity because the appeal to keep going is so strong. I dunno...I was thinking of trying it out next year just to see what happens, if so I'll make a post about it.
I get similar reports. My problem with the "normal range" is it is a huge fricking range. I am pretty sure 300ng/dl is not going to feel the same as 900ng/dl. I am also not so sure medical science knows what the normal range is considering all the factors in modern life that lower test levels from what they might have been 100 years ago.
IIRC, "normal" was rescaled down sometime in the last few decades. The excuse given was that levels had been dropping, and the new "normal" was statistically calibrated to the new, lower levels.
Quote from: RandyB on December 01, 2022, 11:59:10 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 11:49:09 AM
Quote from: Brad on December 01, 2022, 10:27:36 AM
There's a place in town that does it, and I personally know a guy who did it, we used to work out together a couple years ago at the gym. He's an experienced lifter (actually worked as a strength coach for a Div 1 football team), and pretty close to my age. Basically he was recovering like an 18 year old and the strength gain was pretty substantial in such a short amount of time. I have been considering it even though my test levels are "normal" for my age, but am worried it'll be too much of a good thing and I'll get addicted. Not naming names, but I know a couple bodybuilders and they have all told me directly to never ride the bike unless I am certain I enjoy cycling in perpetuity because the appeal to keep going is so strong. I dunno...I was thinking of trying it out next year just to see what happens, if so I'll make a post about it.
I get similar reports. My problem with the "normal range" is it is a huge fricking range. I am pretty sure 300ng/dl is not going to feel the same as 900ng/dl. I am also not so sure medical science knows what the normal range is considering all the factors in modern life that lower test levels from what they might have been 100 years ago.
IIRC, "normal" was rescaled down sometime in the last few decades. The excuse given was that levels had been dropping, and the new "normal" was statistically calibrated to the new, lower levels.
Yeah I remember something along those lines. I also wonder why TRT is so reluctantly prescribed by so many general practice doctors....yet things like hormone replacement for sex changes is embraced so readily. I also never see any reluctance for aging women to get HRT. Seems strange regarding testosterone, almost like it is a "hated" hormone.......
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 12:08:22 PM
Quote from: RandyB on December 01, 2022, 11:59:10 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 11:49:09 AM
Quote from: Brad on December 01, 2022, 10:27:36 AM
There's a place in town that does it, and I personally know a guy who did it, we used to work out together a couple years ago at the gym. He's an experienced lifter (actually worked as a strength coach for a Div 1 football team), and pretty close to my age. Basically he was recovering like an 18 year old and the strength gain was pretty substantial in such a short amount of time. I have been considering it even though my test levels are "normal" for my age, but am worried it'll be too much of a good thing and I'll get addicted. Not naming names, but I know a couple bodybuilders and they have all told me directly to never ride the bike unless I am certain I enjoy cycling in perpetuity because the appeal to keep going is so strong. I dunno...I was thinking of trying it out next year just to see what happens, if so I'll make a post about it.
I get similar reports. My problem with the "normal range" is it is a huge fricking range. I am pretty sure 300ng/dl is not going to feel the same as 900ng/dl. I am also not so sure medical science knows what the normal range is considering all the factors in modern life that lower test levels from what they might have been 100 years ago.
IIRC, "normal" was rescaled down sometime in the last few decades. The excuse given was that levels had been dropping, and the new "normal" was statistically calibrated to the new, lower levels.
Yeah I remember something along those lines. I also wonder why TRT is so reluctantly prescribed by so many general practice doctors....yet things like hormone replacement for sex changes is embraced so readily. I also never see any reluctance for aging women to get HRT. Seems strange regarding testosterone, almost like it is a "hated" hormone.......
Things that make you go "Hmmm...."
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 12:08:22 PM
Quote from: RandyB on December 01, 2022, 11:59:10 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 11:49:09 AM
Quote from: Brad on December 01, 2022, 10:27:36 AM
There's a place in town that does it, and I personally know a guy who did it, we used to work out together a couple years ago at the gym. He's an experienced lifter (actually worked as a strength coach for a Div 1 football team), and pretty close to my age. Basically he was recovering like an 18 year old and the strength gain was pretty substantial in such a short amount of time. I have been considering it even though my test levels are "normal" for my age, but am worried it'll be too much of a good thing and I'll get addicted. Not naming names, but I know a couple bodybuilders and they have all told me directly to never ride the bike unless I am certain I enjoy cycling in perpetuity because the appeal to keep going is so strong. I dunno...I was thinking of trying it out next year just to see what happens, if so I'll make a post about it.
I get similar reports. My problem with the "normal range" is it is a huge fricking range. I am pretty sure 300ng/dl is not going to feel the same as 900ng/dl. I am also not so sure medical science knows what the normal range is considering all the factors in modern life that lower test levels from what they might have been 100 years ago.
IIRC, "normal" was rescaled down sometime in the last few decades. The excuse given was that levels had been dropping, and the new "normal" was statistically calibrated to the new, lower levels.
Yeah I remember something along those lines. I also wonder why TRT is so reluctantly prescribed by so many general practice doctors....yet things like hormone replacement for sex changes is embraced so readily. I also never see any reluctance for aging women to get HRT. Seems strange regarding testosterone, almost like it is a "hated" hormone.......
Isn't the reason it's reluctantly prescribed because your body's own hormone production shuts off if you use HRT for long enough? If you're forever dependent on injecting testosterone, that's a fairly big drawback. Seems more sensible to try to increase testosterone naturally through improving your diet & physical condition.
Quote from: Zelen on December 01, 2022, 06:06:23 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 12:08:22 PM
Quote from: RandyB on December 01, 2022, 11:59:10 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 11:49:09 AM
Quote from: Brad on December 01, 2022, 10:27:36 AM
There's a place in town that does it, and I personally know a guy who did it, we used to work out together a couple years ago at the gym. He's an experienced lifter (actually worked as a strength coach for a Div 1 football team), and pretty close to my age. Basically he was recovering like an 18 year old and the strength gain was pretty substantial in such a short amount of time. I have been considering it even though my test levels are "normal" for my age, but am worried it'll be too much of a good thing and I'll get addicted. Not naming names, but I know a couple bodybuilders and they have all told me directly to never ride the bike unless I am certain I enjoy cycling in perpetuity because the appeal to keep going is so strong. I dunno...I was thinking of trying it out next year just to see what happens, if so I'll make a post about it.
I get similar reports. My problem with the "normal range" is it is a huge fricking range. I am pretty sure 300ng/dl is not going to feel the same as 900ng/dl. I am also not so sure medical science knows what the normal range is considering all the factors in modern life that lower test levels from what they might have been 100 years ago.
IIRC, "normal" was rescaled down sometime in the last few decades. The excuse given was that levels had been dropping, and the new "normal" was statistically calibrated to the new, lower levels.
Yeah I remember something along those lines. I also wonder why TRT is so reluctantly prescribed by so many general practice doctors....yet things like hormone replacement for sex changes is embraced so readily. I also never see any reluctance for aging women to get HRT. Seems strange regarding testosterone, almost like it is a "hated" hormone.......
Isn't the reason it's reluctantly prescribed because your body's own hormone production shuts off if you use HRT for long enough? If you're forever dependent on injecting testosterone, that's a fairly big drawback. Seems more sensible to try to increase testosterone naturally through improving your diet & physical condition.
Well, they hit women with it left and right. They also make NO ATTEMPT to address a profile that is on the low end of "normal" like say 275ng/dl. I for certain think increasing your profile from exercise, sleep, and diet are priority number 1. I think lots of men with low T have it because of modern lifestyle in as much as anything else. I also know that your levels are going to decrease with age, and doctors seem very reluctant to allow a 55 year old to have the test level of a 25 year old for what appear to me to be reasons unknown. They will literally throw happy pills, pain pills, sex change drugs, hard on pills, etc at patients but are worried about an older man having his natural production levels reduced? I am not so sure that is the reason. If it was ANY concern at all they would have therapies to increase natural levels (reality is modern doctors have no idea what a good or healthy level is, they just know what the "average" is and the range is so freaking wide it is completely meaningless).
Quote from: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 07:36:26 AM
Now for the resistance training question, any of you decided to get TRT/hormone therapy yet?
No.
I actually enquired about it. It very quickly became clear that the doctor was going to prescribe me T jabs no matter what any test results said, I could have been a 240lb hairy muscle mountain lumberjack with a baritone voice from 1900, her primary concern wasn't my health but money - her husband's company supplied the drugs. So I dropped that and looked into other things, and it came good.
I think very very few people need it, much more commonly they just need to improve their sleep, food, exercise and overall stresses in life. The Art of Manliness guy shared how he doubled his testosterone in 90 days (https://www.artofmanliness.com/health-fitness/health/how-to-increase-testosterone-naturally/) with some simple changes, and reported again 7 years later (https://www.artofmanliness.com/health-fitness/health/an-update-on-my-testosterone-boosting-experiment-7-years-later/).
Quote from: Art of ManlinessUltimately then, the specific practices attendant to a healthy lifestyle matter less than the fact that you do them consistently. Keep your body fat down (with whatever diet suits you). Lift heavy weights (with the workout program you personally enjoy). Prioritize sleep and stress management (with the methods that work best for you). And you should be good.
As for,
Quote from: oggsmashMy problem with the "normal range" is it is a huge fricking range.
This is like the issue of BMI vs bodyfat percentage, and so on. No single number is going to tell you everything you need to know about your health. For example, I have a higher saturated fat consumption than is recommended in Australia or the US (12-15% of daily calories vs Australia's max 10% and the USA's max 5%), so in principle I should have high blood cholesterol; but I also have decent fibre consumption (about 32g daily vs Oz rec 30) which brings it down to a decent range.
As a fun fact, some elite athletes have below average testosterone levels (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5804043/). Now, this could be an effect of their doping - you take T to enhance performance, your body produces less by itself, you stop the jabs coming up to a competition so you won't get pinged, they test you, voila you're low today. But if nothing else it shows that your T levels don't necessarily affect your performance on a day-to-day basis - those doping athletes would be putting out personal bests on the day of their lowest testosterone.
Obviously all the muscle they've built before then helps them more than the depressed T hinders them. So again - it's about more than one number.
Thinking of other markers of health, we don't see 1:1 correlations of blood pressure, cholesterol, blood glucose or anything else with overall mortality. There are trends only. No single number will tell you everything about your health, and focusing just on that one number can actually make your health worse, I believe - I think this is a significant cause of iatrogenic deaths worldwide.
Quote from: oggsmashSeems strange regarding testosterone, almost like it is a "hated" hormone.......
Obviously there are cultural and not scientific reasons for the differences you laid out. Nonetheless I think it a good principle that we should not use a medical intervention where a non-medical intervention can do as well. The less shit we put in ourselves and the less poking about in our bodies with scalpels, the better for our long-term health and our wallets.
It's like the people I've had in the gym who had back pain and were awaiting surgery. "Well, your surgery isn't for six months. Whether you sit on the couch for six months or lift for six months, you're still going to have wait six months for the surgery. And after surgery, you will lose strength. All doctors agree that it's better to go into surgery strong than weak. So you may as well lift for these six months."
If you've done everything non-medical you possibly can to address whatever you think the issue is and it's not fixed, by all means jab away.
In the oggsmash case, food and exercise will be fine, I'm sure. So it'll be sleep and overall stress. Those things can fuck you up.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on December 01, 2022, 07:13:10 PM
I think very very few people need it, much more commonly they just need to improve their sleep, food, exercise and overall stresses in life.
Try having a 4 and 7 year old and see how easy it is to regulate any of those...doing okay on food, but the other three are a lost cause at this point. Someone needs to write up a routine for the "I maybe get 4 hours of sleep a night and work a bullshit full time job" crowd.
RE: the surgery thing...I had a large tear in my rotator cuff, got an MRI, etc. Did some of that airrosti stuff and was basically told I could either get surgery to "fix it" and maybe it'd be better? Or I could just gut it out and it'd hurt forever but probably heal well enough to gain my strength back. So I did the second one, and glad I did. I have an ACL in one knee and ACL/MCL in the other, slipped disc, slightly compressed spine, recently broken leg, and a slew of other injuries I could get cut for, but fuck that. Just drink some Scotch every so often and still hit the gym the best I can. Oddly enough, my younger brother decided to get cut for his knee pain and now he has limited mobility and it still never healed properly, so I really don't see the point.
Quote from: Brad on December 01, 2022, 08:47:25 PM
Try having a 4 and 7 year old and see how easy it is to regulate any of those...doing okay on food, but the other three are a lost cause at this point. Someone needs to write up a routine for the "I maybe get 4 hours of sleep a night and work a bullshit full time job" crowd.
I've experienced these things. It's not easy, but it can be done. It sometimes requires changes which might take years to happen. That's alright, low T or whatever isn't going to kill you in a few years.
Basically think of any significant change in life - degree, new career, getting married, having children, moving to a new country and learning the language, going from superobese to healthy or vice versa - as taking 5 years to do. How many more 5 year chunks do you have in your life? I'm 51, assuming no lethal accidents or imprisonment and some years of decay between one plan and death I've got probably 5, maybe 7 if I'm lucky.
If you make even a small change or two and keep them up daily for the next 5 years - well, you may or may not be heaps better than now, but you're not going to be worse, that's for sure. Whereas if you do nothing you'll be worse. Figure out something you can do, and do it.
I firmly believe that most people whose marriages, businesses etc fail, it's not because of some major character flaw in them, but just that they get so caught up in handling the day-to-day bullshit they go off track.
QuoteOddly enough, my younger brother decided to get cut for his knee pain and now he has limited mobility and it still never healed properly, so I really don't see the point.
There are commonly two things here. Firstly, if a joint's falling apart in some way, they'll reconstruct it tighter than it was before - they don't want to see you back there in 12 months. Secondly, people tend not to have constant pain, but pain outside a certain range of motion, let's say 120 degrees. So the person stays in 110 degrees of motion to avoid the pain. Of course, then they find that it hurts at 110 degrees, now they stay within 100, and so on. It's a nasty spiral, and then the person ends up moving like Frankenstein's monster.
Oh, make no mistake the fact an internist is extremely reluctant to prescribe and at an "age management clinic" they will prescribe if you show up looking like 1965 Arnold is also concerning to me.
I would prefer an unbiased answer on a preferred level, not one from the pencil neck doctor that will not prescribe unless you show up at under 200ng. and I do not want the dude who looks like he just lifted a truck tell me I am not doing terrible, but would I like to maintain a newer baseline of 1000ng to feel better and be better. Just give me a real number.
elite athletes with low T are almost always one of 3 things or a combination of them. Over training (elite athletes often have the genes to survive this and just have test level beaten down instead of breaking the way most people would), dieting (weight class sports are notorious for beating people's hormones to death), and as said....doping. "Cheating" is extremely common and for many sports drug tests are a bit of a joke and there is a great deal to gain from cheating and often more to gain from cheating and winning than there is to lose from cheating and getting caught. So not so sure some elite athletes showing low test levels while training their asses off means much.
It was eye-opening for me that most of the male Instagram "fitness influencers" are on gear. That's why they look the way they do. Some of the female ones, too.
Quote from: Kiero on December 02, 2022, 06:59:56 AM
It was eye-opening for me that most of the male Instagram "fitness influencers" are on gear. That's why they look the way they do. Some of the female ones, too.
What's eye-opening to me is people actually thought dudes like that liver king fellow weren't riding bikes...
There are a few dead giveaways that show a juicer at a glance. I remember when I had buddies who went whole hog on "augmentation" back in '92, and what was shocking to me was how many people who were juicing who looked.....average or above average at best. Newbs were hitting juice, which was the biggest waste imaginable.
What really shocks me is how many actors blatantly juice or people like the ROCK and fans think its "hard work" and "focus". As for influencers, I figure anyone attention whore enough to be a "fitness influencer" would likely sign a contract with Satan for fame, so roids are no sort of issue for them to take at all.
I also suspect I might be more open to the idea of TRT after starting back on a more regular martial arts training schedule (mostly grappling 2 days a week or so) and trying to maintain a bit of lifting (1 on two off, I may look at more of a split on my time not doing a full body workout every time as I head back towards a more intermediate loading/stress schedule lifting). I do not know how recovery is going to get hit and I rather not do anything to put me in too early a grave but if all this medical technology and science we all love so much in the modern world can leave me high functioning for another 20 years..........
Sort of stuck with press. I can not seem to get that 3rd set of 5 with 185. Two work outs in a row and did not hit the mark. I did have less than optimal sleep the past 8 days, and I am asking you experts here, would be better to go to a top set of 5 and back off the second two, rotate volume in every other work out and just try to hit a 5RM instead, or even drop to a triple run for a few weeks?
On the other ends dips are constantly improving (just worked them into rotation a few weeks ago) and I felt they were contributing to press, but my approach was extremely simple, a basic linear progression. I am considering headed towards a modified texas style method and hitting volume with press/dips one day and intensity the other for a change in adaption. I do not think I will go big volume or massive increase in intensity with the squat or my pulls yet (Squat keeps progressing, I just find the need for a back off day rather than constant increase on days I have power cleans or a deadlift on the same day) but it seems my press is calling out for some changing of routing.
I plan to give the linear another 7-10 days after ensuring a minimum of 7 hours sleep per day and if that does not move me along change out my strategy on increases for press (moving to a weekly strategy instead of a per work out). I need to change strategy soon any way, as linear can only move me for so long, and I am around 17 weeks now. Advice? This is also assuming I focus all recovery on lifting for another month or so before mashing my body with added grappling/kickboxing.
Not an expert by any means but I had some improvement incorporating some of the bench press technique suggestions I saw by Jeff Nippard. Essentially: Establish a good grip, use wider hand placement, engage the core and posterior chain by pressing through the heel while pressing the bar.
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=vcBig73ojpE
Quote from: Zelen on December 11, 2022, 01:20:51 PM
Not an expert by any means but I had some improvement incorporating some of the bench press technique suggestions I saw by Jeff Nippard. Essentially: Establish a good grip, use wider hand placement, engage the core and posterior chain by pressing through the heel while pressing the bar.
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=vcBig73ojpE
Press I refer to is over head press. I do not do bench press at all, it feels odd, and since I just had my pectoral reattached after a grade 3 blow out, dunno if bench press is coming back. Dips fill that hole. If when I said press, you thought it was bench press, my fault...I should have said standing press (I can see where press is assumed to mean bench given how popular it is).
For any older lifters interested, I've been running a program for two months specifically targeted for older (45+) dudes who have a good background in weight training and want to maintain a high level of strength with low chance of injury. It uses a lot of machines (yeah, I know), but you can obviously use dumbbells and barbell as desired. Right now I use the machines for some of the stuff just for convenience, and use barbell when it makes sense. Obviously things like deadlifts and press are barbell, for example.
So anyway, it's four days; two on, rest, then two on basically a repeat of the previous two but switching up/variations of the same movement. So far, I have enjoyed it, and it maybe takes 40 minutes or so, definitely doable in the morning. Usually follow it up with some low impact cardio for 20-30 minutes. I don't think it's worth a crap if you've never lifted, but if your CNS is well trained I can see this being a good way to get back into heavier stuff.
I go to the gym for strength, though I prefer to jog outside to the treadmill.
I also walk our rather huge dog (requires a bit strength sometimes).
But what I enjoy most is actually going on hikes in whatever forests I can find around LA. I sometimes go with the dog, sometimes with students, bringing field guides to identify species (birds, trees etc). Sometimes I go on my own lugging my large format camera, with tripod, film holders and the whole nine yards. I develop film at home in the sink.
Quote from: oggsmash on December 07, 2022, 05:42:06 AM
I also suspect I might be more open to the idea of TRT after starting back on a more regular martial arts training schedule (mostly grappling 2 days a week or so) and trying to maintain a bit of lifting (1 on two off, I may look at more of a split on my time not doing a full body workout every time as I head back towards a more intermediate loading/stress schedule lifting). I do not know how recovery is going to get hit and I rather not do anything to put me in too early a grave but if all this medical technology and science we all love so much in the modern world can leave me high functioning for another 20 years..........
Rather than subjecting yourself to TRT, have you reviewed your intake of minerals used to build testosterone?
Zinc, magnesium and boron are particularly important, along with vitamin D. Are you getting enough of those?
Plus making sure you get enough sleep.
Quote from: Kiero on March 06, 2023, 07:16:04 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on December 07, 2022, 05:42:06 AM
I also suspect I might be more open to the idea of TRT after starting back on a more regular martial arts training schedule (mostly grappling 2 days a week or so) and trying to maintain a bit of lifting (1 on two off, I may look at more of a split on my time not doing a full body workout every time as I head back towards a more intermediate loading/stress schedule lifting). I do not know how recovery is going to get hit and I rather not do anything to put me in too early a grave but if all this medical technology and science we all love so much in the modern world can leave me high functioning for another 20 years..........
Rather than subjecting yourself to TRT, have you reviewed your intake of minerals used to build testosterone?
Zinc, magnesium and boron are particularly important, along with vitamin D. Are you getting enough of those?
Plus making sure you get enough sleep.
I am checking all the boxes and feel pretty good. That said, lifting 2-3 times a week and grappling 3 times a week along with a full life schedule takes a whole lot of recovery and I think no matter how optimized you are as a 51 year old....it will not be the same as 30. I would also say this flat out....if I have say a 620 ng level....would a 1k not be better? The "normal" range is very wide and I fail to understand how a 300ng level is as "normal as a 750+ng level.
Not subjected to anything as yet, and I get people being worried about putting something from outside inside. I have the same concerns so I am in no hurry to take it on....but I also see a whole lot of evidence around me that points towards positives, alot of positives, towards treatment and not a whole lot of negatives. Reality is I might not be able to maintain a certain level of intensity and frequency no matter what I do (breaking parallel for sets of 5 with 4 plus at this point puts a big minus on my recovery...which honestly even standing press over 2 for sets is also pounding me a bit as well) and backing off strength training to large degree (intensity wise) is probably going to be needed if I am on the mat more than once a week.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 08, 2023, 05:19:23 AMThat said, lifting 2-3 times a week and grappling 3 times a week along with a full life schedule takes a whole lot of recovery and I think no matter how optimized you are as a 51 year old....it will not be the same as 30.
Absolutely. For my under-50 newbie lifters I recommend 3pw, the over-50s 2pw. The under-50s can physically handle more frequent training, but only if their sleep and diet are on-point - and they rarely are. The over-50s, no.
That's newbies. Those who have decades of some kind of training or other behind them are another matter. They'll have better ideas of food or sleep and thus better recovery - if they didn't have these, they wouldn't have managed decades of training. But they'll also have previous injuries to work around.
QuoteI would also say this flat out....if I have say a 620 ng level....would a 1k not be better? The "normal" range is very wide and I fail to understand how a 300ng level is as "normal as a 750+ng level.
The "normal" level is a wide range because it's
all adult males. So if you present to your doctor with a level of 250, they'll go, "that's normal." Normal for a 25yo or normal for a 75yo?
QuoteNot subjected to anything as yet, and I get people being worried about putting something from outside inside.
I am not worried as such, it's just that I always think: if I can possibly achieve the same results
without a pill or scalpel, why not try that first? Because pills and scalpels always seem to lead to
more pills and scalpels. Higher doses needed, side effects, repeat surgeries, etc. Even if the one I get today has no downsides, eventually one of the others will.
And of course, sometimes there are just harsh realities we have to face, like previous injuries and ageing. We can mitigate these but we can't get rid of them entirely. So I look at how it can be mitigated.
For example, if you're lifting and on the mat, which is more important to you? Do you
need to go hard with one or the other, or neither? Could you go hard on one for 3 months, then go easy on it for the rest of the year, or go easy on both of them year round? Basically life becomes a point-buy system, but as you get older you have fewer points to spend.
Oh I agree, I have been off the mat to focus on over all strength. I also agree sometimes we have to accept reality and I also agree I MUCH prefer to optimize what I can manage on my own rather than taking shots. I am also pretty convinced as I mentioned going from 600ish ng to 1000 ng is going to have a very positive effect on training and recovery. Now exactly what price there is to pay for doing that I have no real concrete idea and I find the "evidence" around side effects and problems to be extremely skewed (one side has a very vested interest in prescribing testosterone, and the other side acts as if the hormone is literally pure evil and come up with all sorts of bullshit to avoid it) and find myself going and talking to many people who have undergone therapy as they tend to be my best source of on the ground information.
For now a return to earlier benchmarks has been a pretty steady march, I feel very good and have no interest in taking something if I can get what I want to get done. I am also not against supplementation if it gives a large benefit and minimal risk. Still assessing the risk.
I've been doing boot camps 3x per week and Krav Maga 2-3x per week. The cardio level needed for Krav has been intense so far. Thought I was in good shape...
Scheduling a blood TEST (hah) for possible TRT...we'll see how this goes. 1RM on bench is barely 3 plates, and it's a lot harder than it used to be, so guessing the levels are slowly decreasing.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 09, 2023, 05:24:30 AMone side has a very vested interest in prescribing testosterone, and the other side acts as if the hormone is literally pure evil and come up with all sorts of bullshit to avoid it
Sadly, yes. We are the iron battered between the hammer of hysteria and the anvil of profit.
Quote from: Brad1RM on bench is barely 3 plates, and it's a lot harder than it used to be
That's 64% of the middleweight drug-tested open world record.
http://goodlift.info/records.php?fd=0&ac=0&sx=M&eq=1
That's like a 232kg deadlift, or a 112kg snatch, and the running equivalent of a 3hr marathon. I don't think you need to head to the doc's just yet, mate.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 13, 2023, 09:57:08 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 09, 2023, 05:24:30 AMone side has a very vested interest in prescribing testosterone, and the other side acts as if the hormone is literally pure evil and come up with all sorts of bullshit to avoid it
Sadly, yes. We are the iron battered between the hammer of hysteria and the anvil of profit.
Quote from: Brad1RM on bench is barely 3 plates, and it's a lot harder than it used to be
That's 64% of the middleweight drug-tested open world record.
http://goodlift.info/records.php?fd=0&ac=0&sx=M&eq=1
That's like a 232kg deadlift, or a 112kg snatch, and the running equivalent of a 3hr marathon. I don't think you need to head to the doc's just yet, mate.
Though you feel like deadlifting what I could do as a 16 year old should make me happy today I think that is not exactly the thing I want to go for. I do not go near a 1rm bench press (with pec reattachment I will be happy if I get to a point I can do sets of 5 across with a weight that makes me push) but I would like to at least be in the neighborhood of what I have done in the past. I can use the standing press as a metric, and I am still around 35 pounds under my best set of 5. I am not attempting to be "good for 50" I just want to be good. I have a feeling, like Brad, that the doctor can probably help with that. I have a feeling the feeling and over all functionality that comes with that (higher T levels for general life, not just to hit a number) is likely to be pretty damned nice. I understand there is a *chance* of some side effects that could cause problems....but getting older and having lower T has DEFINITE drawbacks when weighed against a chance..... If the trade off is dying at 75 versus 85 with a drastic difference in energy/function/quality of life at 75 versus just being broken down at 85.....well......
I'm a bicyclist. Once the weather clears I'll get back to doing more than 12 miles a day for 6 days a week. If I take a day off bicycling I ruck at least 2 miles.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 14, 2023, 05:33:24 AM
If the trade off is dying at 75 versus 85 with a drastic difference in energy/function/quality of life at 75 versus just being broken down at 85.....well......
It's not that simple, though. It's more likely dying at 75 with liver failure or the like, with some nasty years leading up to that. Nor would you be broken down at 85, assuming you still keep yourself in shape, even without augmentation.
The idea of taking any medical intervention for the rest of my life is anathema for me. I am not, and have never been on regular medication for anything.
A tangent from the current discussion about TRT, why do so many people take such poor care of their backs? I'm 43 and do not suffer from chronic back pain (or knee pain), I do spinal mobility exercises every single day to keep it in the best shape I can. That's alongside lifting and such which keep the muscles strong.
I keep seeing memes suggesting back pain is inevitable past 30 and such, and think what bollocks. It really isn't hard to put in some effort to maintain good mobility, which puts you in good stead for later years. Nor is decline automatic.
Quote from: Kiero on March 19, 2023, 09:34:11 AM
A tangent from the current discussion about TRT, why do so many people take such poor care of their backs? I'm 43 and do not suffer from chronic back pain (or knee pain), I do spinal mobility exercises every single day to keep it in the best shape I can. That's alongside lifting and such which keep the muscles strong.
I keep seeing memes suggesting back pain is inevitable past 30 and such, and think what bollocks. It really isn't hard to put in some effort to maintain good mobility, which puts you in good stead for later years. Nor is decline automatic.
Hear, hear, my good man!
Quote from: Kiero on March 19, 2023, 09:34:11 AM
A tangent from the current discussion about TRT, why do so many people take such poor care of their backs? I'm 43 and do not suffer from chronic back pain (or knee pain), I do spinal mobility exercises every single day to keep it in the best shape I can. That's alongside lifting and such which keep the muscles strong.
I keep seeing memes suggesting back pain is inevitable past 30 and such, and think what bollocks. It really isn't hard to put in some effort to maintain good mobility, which puts you in good stead for later years. Nor is decline automatic.
I am 51 and have stayed in good shape for a long time. I also have had 300 plus pound men trying to smash me into a ball. I think some back ache is going to be a thing if you have had a very active life especially with a lot of contact sports. I can also say I feel tremendously less back irritation when I am active, mobile and fit than when I was forced to sit around a lot (recovery from surgery). So to a degree there probably is some degree of discomfort some people will feel in their back as they age. I deadlifted 475 x 5 a few weeks ago and I find my back hurts a hell of a lot less when I do that than when I have been inactive for a long period of time.
Long story short is simple, no one wants to do any work to maintain or improve what they have (their body) for the most part. It is really not that hard to keep the core strong and duck probably 90 percent of the discomfort age brings to the back (again long life with a lot of contact sports I think some discomfort is going to be there). People are just lazy. All that said, regarding TRT assigning things like liver failure is hyperbolic, as for the nasty years prior to....no if I were in a truly miserable heath situation that only gets worse, i just check out. I have never taken any meds either (I do not take pain meds after surgery) past antibiotics after surgeries. I also have never been well over 50 either. I think its great you feel you would never care to augment, I might not either....but I am also open to exploring the real options out there and not hyperbolic over reactions to what can and can not happen.
Quote from: Kiero on March 19, 2023, 09:34:11 AMwhy do so many people take such poor care of their backs?
People are naturally gluttonous and slothful. This is evolution.
For some 100,000 years of human history, food supply was unreliable and there was little or no medicine. If you had the Salad & Running Gene, then one day when it was 6 weeks instead of 2 weeks between gazelles, you died. If that didn't kill you then breaking your ankle on the rocky hill and suffering septicemia did. Sure, you looked really buff and all the chicks or guys dug you a lot more than the lazy fattie sitting under the tree gossiping - but you were dead and couldn't pass on your Salad & Running Gene. The lazy fatties then got together and made more lazy fattie kids.
Evolution.
Of course, there are a lot of things which nature inclines us to do, but we have our reason and will - but we must choose to use them. This is simple, not easy.
I have not deadlifted for a while, or done power cleans, I wanted to get my squat back up after a little bit of a reset after Christmas, hitting it once a week and letting the lower back and hips catch a break has helped and I am still figuring out where my best progress and ability to perform athletically outside lifting with recovery are. Hit 385x5 on the squat breaking parallel on all reps and I did sets across of 190x5 for standing press. Dips are not great, but I am hitting sets of 15 fairly easy again and considering whether doing incline, attempts with flat bench or adding weight to dips is better. Its a good bit of progress from a 135x5 squat and 95x5 standing press 6 months ago. Both of which made me sore as hell. I wanted to hit certain bench marks, but in the interim I would be thrilled to just hit a 405x5 squat again and to do a 205x5 press for a top set. Deadlift I am not so interested in doing consistently but I did want to get it back over 500 for 5, but right now since I do a low bar squat alot of the same muscles get hit doing a squat that do while deadlifting. Once squat gets where I want and I shift off the intensity of effort there I might give harder deadlifts a try. For now after rolling a couple days a week with the lifting I feel I am at just about the right level of total intensity/volume. Adding a heavy deadlift in the week might upset that apple cart, so I think once I taper off squat a bit I will work a deadlift in to get some level of equilibrium.
Sorry about the rant, but I like to think out loud about something other than nut cases trying to murder my childhood or political insanity.
Went with the incline press, and it is much more stable now than it was a few months ago before doing all the dips. Best Squat was 395x5 and it told me we are going to rotate back to 8's for a few weeks as it was rough. Hit 195x5 on standing press and 205 for 3 sets of triples, so 205 x5 might happen in the next few months. No goal set for incline, I was happy that 215 for 3 sets of five felt very easy ( a few months ago 210 was whipping my ass).
I won't likely make fast progress from here on as I have cycled in two days of BJJ and a day or two of pad work with kickboxing. After not kicking anything for a couple years, my hips are much stiffer and rolling a kick over feels awkward big time and I dare not roll one over any higher than liver level. So my fitness pursuits now are getting back to putting in 5-6 rounds rolling a session (assuming 5 minutes rounds and some of those rounds being with brown and black belts) and getting my hip and hamstring flexibility back to a reasonable level so I dont look afraid to throw a full speed kick.
No soreness or stiffness from the recovered area (pectoral/shoulder) but I am always apprehensive and careful with pushing in certain planes of motion (still avoid the bench press and feel a tiny notion of paranoia on an incline bench).
Weather is nice so going to have to hit the trail with the bike or the recumbent trike soon and enjoy it.
The way I see it, if you can press it, you can row or bench it; the reverse is not true. And if you can front squat it, you can back squat it, the reverse is not true. If you can back squat it, you can deadlift it; the reverse is not true. So... just press and front squat?
Well, maybe. Point is, you can get a lot of your results from a relatively short list of stuff to do.
You can see this in endurance work, too. They've put heart rate monitors on guys who still live as hunter-gatherers, and they spend 600-700 minutes a week doing moderate endurance work - basically, a brisk walk or light jog - vs the 150 minimum most Western health departments would like us to do, and which most people don't do. And when they measure their VO2max, it's in the 50s ml/kg/min - like a runner in his 20s or 30s. They never smash themselves, they just do a brisk walk or jog for about an hour (spread out) every single day. No HIIT or prowlers or 4x400m or whatever.
Again, a lot of results from a relatively short list of stuff.
Me, I've been at a globogym since the start of the year. My dusty old garage was getting a bit dull for me. Add in two children at primary school, and I've had to work things in around school terms. These are 8-11 weeks so actually work pretty well for training - spend one term building strength while maintaining cardio, then two weeks off, then flip it to focus on endurance while maintaining strength. Such is the theory, anyway.
I wish I could get a list to 2, but I think 5 or 6 is short and sweet enough. The thing I have noticed about the gym (I too went to a globo gym) is it seems internet influence on some of the youngsters is not a net positive on etiquette or behavior. The constant changing of chalk policy is also strange, but same kids that film themselves all the time seem not so great at cleaning up chalk either.
Kyle, what's your opinion on rep ranges, especially for people who are getting older? When I powerlifted it was never more than 5, and I would do a lot of doubles and singles. Now I'm aiming more for 10-12 on heavier lifts and 15-20 for accessory stuff after my main workout is done. In the past when I did a two-a-day for a few months, I was hitting 5x20 with 30 second rest for about 6 exercises in the morning, then repeating in the evening. Never really felt burnt out (actually I felt like I had a lot more energy), but the strength levels seemed to taper off quickly.
I dunno, I am just trying to mix it up and not get bored. I've been doing the same workout since January and it's okay, but might need something different for a while.
RE: globogym and etiquette...I usually go at 3:30AM and everyone in there (even the younger girls) are pretty good. No stupid ass cameras, people re-rack, courteous when getting weights, etc. I went last week at 5:30PM after work because I was feeling lazy one morning and it was astonishing to contrast the differences. Never seen so many fucktards with literally no idea how to act in a gym, and I used to work out at the university rec center when it was packed to the gills...
Quote from: Brad on May 09, 2023, 09:33:00 AM
Kyle, what's your opinion on rep ranges, especially for people who are getting older?
I'm going to give you a long answer to show you how the thinking goes. As the man said, I'm sorry for such a long response but I didn't have the time for a short one.
But the short answer is: it doesn't matter, more important is the load and volume. And the movement is more important than either. But if you're worn out, drop back, and build up again with higher reps. And if you get worn out from those, drop back, and build back up again with lower reps. The non-negotiable part is to keep training, and keep building up.
By themselves, reps mean nothing. 5 reps? 5 reps for 10 sets? And 5 reps of 50%, or of 85%? Sets of 5 for a newbie who will work up to
almost failing sets in 3 months, then drop back and do some intermediate programme? All different things.
I think more of the
style of training.
If you were active your
whole life, and were never at a professional level in any sport, I think it should look something like this,
- childhood (2-8) - play
- pre-teen (8-12) - calisthenics and sports
- adolescence (13-18) - sports, including barbell sports
- adulthood (18-35) - weightlifting
- middle-age (35-50) - powerlifting
- older (50+) - bodybuilding, ie mostly machines and dumbbells
Now, there are a lot of caveats to that. The most common one is simply that your typical newbie in the gym, whatever their age, doesn't have any background at all, they've been sedentary. And this is why for people under 50 we can confidently say things like, "any healthy guy can squat 100kg in his first 6 months,
or run 5km in under 30 minutes, and do both in 12 months," but we can't say much about over-50s - you'll get a 77yo who can squat 60kg in 8 weeks with no previous weight training (but lots of cycling and running), like one guy I had, and a 55yo who can't walk 2km without ibuprofen, like a woman I had. Huge divergence past 50.
But for people of all ages, what's key is balancing that volume and load, as I alluded to at the start. Now, whatever else people want to do, being stronger is going to help. So I think everyone needs to do some sort of novice progression - come in and add weight to the bar steadily until you can't, which takes 3 months if you're bold and/or untalented, and 6 months if you're cautious and/or talented. This will take that healthy young guy up to squatting 100, benching 75, and deadlifting 120 at least, and the woman 60/40/80. To achieve this most will need to tidy up their diet a bit - not weighing and measuring everything, but more vegies and protein-rich food, less booze and junk.
After building that strength base we then look at individual goals. If building more strength is their goal, then we want 70% 1RM as their average over time. The Russians and Chinese have had the most strength training participants and collected the most data on it, and they get 70% as the average load for the successful programmes. But there's a difference between doing 70% all the time, and dropping to 60% and building to 80% over several weeks. Guess which works better?
So after the novice 3-6 months, I get the strength-focused trainee to do something like this,
- Imagine a person has been doing sets of 5 across for their first 3-6 months. They get to 85kg (in whatever exercise) and do 4,4,3. They go away, advised to eat steak and go to bed early before the next session. Next session is 85kg again and 5,4,4. We declare their novice progression over. If they can do 85 for 5 then they can certainly do 100kg for 1, so we call that their 1RM. We give them an easy week of lifting whatever they like, test it and they do indeed get 100kg x1. Now we give them a new programme.
- This programme will be an HLM - heavy day (which drives progress), light day (which just refreshes you) and medium day (which would maintain but not build strength). It's for 5 weeks, but could be anything from 4 to 12.
- Week 1 heavy day: 60kg 5,5,5.
- Week 2 heavy day: 65kg 5,5,5
- Week 3 heavy day: 70kg 5,5,5
- Week 4 heavy day: 75kg 5,5,5
- Week 5 heavy day: 80kg 5,5,5
- After this you can do a light week and then retest strength, or just start again from 62.5kg building to 82.5kg, and so on. Or reassess and focus on something else.
The light and medium days can be the same exercise performed for 20 and 10% less respectively, or some variation, eg instead of light back squats do front squats, instead of light bench press do overhead presses, etc. This might also be where different tools come in, eg light squat day is machine leg extensions, light pressing day is dumbbells, etc. Machines and dumbbells tend to be for higher reps than barbells. That's because machines take out co-ordination, so you can just fucking smash it without worrying about dropping anything on yourself or twisting a bad shoulder or something. And dumbbells are unwieldy so if it's heavy enough that you can only do 5 reps then it'll be clumsy and you may fuck yourself up.
Now to the point: the movement is more important than the load. Let's imagine some guy is training just with a single adjustable dumbbell. He's super-cautious in his approach, but very consistent. He trains a few times a week, does presses, rows, step-back lunges and one-legged deadlifts with it, once on each side. He starts with the 6kg dumbbell handle, does 8,8 and then as many as he can - if he can do 15 reps, he stops and then he adds 0.5kg next time. A healthy young guy will certainly be able to do 15 reps in his last sets with that for the first month, and in those 13 sessions will have added 0.5kg 12 times after the 1st starting session, taking him from 6 to 12kg. The presses might start getting harder now, and maybe the rows, maybe halving their rate of progress, but the step-back lunges and one-legged deadlifts will keep progressing happily along.
After another two months, three months in all, he's now one-handed dumbbell pressing and rowing 18kg for sets of 8, and doing step-back lunges and deadlifts with 24kg for 8s.
Now this healthy young guy who's been doing this for 3 months comes to the gym and does barbell back squat, bench press and deadlift. He'll need a week or two to get familiar with them - but when tested, he will
certainly be able to squat 100, bench 75 and deadlift 120kg. He
shouldn't do that test, because his body's not used to the big loads, and nothing is gained by a maxout except an ego boost, and he'll be very sore for a week or two and not come back. But by using dumbbells for 3 months he'll be as strong as he would have been if he'd used barbells -
if he's consistent and progresses the effort over time.
I've had that exact scenario with a few distance clients, and it's true every time. As well, after many years of Starting Strength with low-bar back squat, press and bench, deadlift and rows, I instead had people do front squat, just press without benching, snatch-grip deadlift and farmer's walks - and then when we tested back squat, bench and conventional deadlift, we got those same numbers.
That is what I mean by
the movement is more important than the load. It's also more important than sets and reps. Be consistent, push it up where you can, and after that drop back and build up to a little more than before.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 10, 2023, 12:19:49 AM
But the short answer is: it doesn't matter, more important is the load and volume. And the movement is more important than either. But if you're worn out, drop back, and build up again with higher reps. And if you get worn out from those, drop back, and build back up again with lower reps. The non-negotiable part is to keep training, and keep building up.
Yeah, I already know this, of course, based purely on years of lifting, but the consistency part is what's hard to maintain. Thanks for the detailed answer, though.
As we get older and our lives fill with other stuff, the consistency part is harder, yes. But that's where being a bit freer with what you do can help. "I'll do half an hour a day of something," you say to yourself - and stick to it.
Honestly, just thinking in terms of health, once you've been through a novice progression in both barbells and running - 3-6 months each - your health goals can be achieved in half an hour a day with a local park, 2-3 kettlebells of different weights and a pullup bar.
I agree with that...except now my health goals are constantly turning more ambitious combined with juggling not going overboard with a training schedule. I think it will take me another year to get my timing back in full for my kickboxing and grappling (realistically more like 3 more months, but I am intentionally limiting my training days to prevent a large set back from some nagging injury). I still eye possible new baselines for strength, which I should not be concerned with at advancing age...but I do feel chasing the goals keeps us all motivated.
One other consideration for those considering TRT: testosterone supplementation can shut down your natural production altogether. If you're content being augmented for the rest of your life, that's not an issue, but it's something worth adding to the calculation.
Personally, I'd prefer to fix all the issues that are depressing your testosterone, rather than going for a shortcut.
Fully considered it. I am not concerned that my T level is low. I just want it higher (like when I was 25 level) and if I engage in taking it I do not care if its an all the time thing. Plenty of 51 year olds are already on full time meds of some sort they are going to take till they keel over. I do however prefer to run out as much progress as I can and see how my recovery is with my schedule of activity (which is demanding) for a good while. I feel decent after rolling/getting padwork in a couple days a week as my incline has gone to 240x5. I dont know how good I am going to feel when my squat gets back over 400x5 and deadlift over 500x5 with that same level of "extras". The one factor that has reduced my T level that cannot be changed is age. It could be I will have to adjust my goals for physical achievement on the numbers...or maybe if I was adjusted hormonally those numbers will be easy to hit.
I have made no decision as I am not even a year back into putting time in with the iron. I will probably spend another year with the added activities and judge recovery then make a decision. I have no problems if I have to take the stuff for the rest of my time if I start. I do prefer to run out all the progress I can gain from better sleep/nutrition/smarter training in the interim.
As an update with work I restricted my martial arts training for a few months and set some bench marks for numbers. I find the bench press is a way to continually find a tweak or a weak spot somewhere in my upper body. I am pretty sure this is because I am doing something funky (that repaired pec is always in my head when I am on the bench) even when doing 2 sets of 8 with a weight I would have 2-3 left in the tank on the 3rd set. So I might just drop it and do the incline only. My press has hit 205 for sets of 5, rebooted incline is 240 for sets of 5 and we will progress it, started deadlifting again (have not done since December) which I only ever do a top set of 5 and it is back to 435 (I do not do a bunch of volume with it because I squat a couple times a week and a below parallel squat has plenty of lower back and hamstring activation), chin ups are coming along. They were also a point of concern early as my surgeon told me dead hanging exercises or full extension pulldowns would be most risky to a recovered pec tendon replacement, but I can do 10 again (for the first set anyway) and they are moving along.
I have squatted 455x5 before (this was years ago and my all time best) but only for a top set with a couple drop backs. 435 is the most I have ever done with sets across and I have never done 205 for 5 (standing, I did do the dumbass seated behind the neck press in my 20's...but I think that is a considerably easier and more dangerous exercise). I want to set a mark for 495 x5 by years end for squat, 225x5 for press, 555 for 5 deadlift. I am a bit less eager to set a mark for bench (if I do it again) and even with the incline I am cautious but 275 x5 would make me happy (this would be more a return to a place I visited than a new thing for life).
I used end of may and June to do volume and deloaded lifting to take a break from a grind and will probably hit another 6 week period of same in a month and that *should* put me close to goals by 2024. I will likely have a work schedule change that allows for more martial arts training in a few months (and regarding that with the level of pushing I am doing I want a schedule change to ensure recovery). So am I a crazy man to push like that (I will be 52 at 218lbs by the time I hit those numbers)?
I also wanted to mention my son who has been lifting with me the past year (for a long while he really only did technique work to build his core as certain things like controlled decent with a loaded squat and keeping his back straight with an 80 percent plus load was not something he could do for squats) bench pressed 125 for 5 for sets across and did a 225 squat for 5 reps for sets across and deadlifted 235 for 5. He is 12 and growing like a tree. I can not in words express how proud this makes me...he has always been an earnest kid and puts his full effort into anything he does, but to see his satisfaction with results of hard work makes me a happy father.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 09, 2023, 08:19:06 AM
I also wanted to mention my son who has been lifting with me the past year (for a long while he really only did technique work to build his core as certain things like controlled decent with a loaded squat and keeping his back straight with an 80 percent plus load was not something he could do for squats) bench pressed 125 for 5 for sets across and did a 225 squat for 5 reps for sets across and deadlifted 235 for 5. He is 12 and growing like a tree. I can not in words express how proud this makes me...he has always been an earnest kid and puts his full effort into anything he does, but to see his satisfaction with results of hard work makes me a happy father.
It's a saying that the only man who will ever be happy that you did better than him is your father.
Nutrition-related discussion here. Anyone noticed that canola/rapeseed oil is in virtually everything that has been pre-made/processed now?
Quote from: Kiero on August 17, 2023, 04:03:32 PMAnyone noticed that canola/rapeseed oil is in virtually everything that has been pre-made/processed now?
Sure. It's just shortening. Helps bind stuff together. That used to be animal fat, then over time became vegetable fats, including seed oils.
Not in itself a worry. The issues with processed food aren't the seed oils or whatever themselves, it's that oils are higher-calorie (9kCal per gram of fats vs 4 for protein and carbohydrates), and that processed food is never high in protein-rich stuff or fruit and vegetables. So you become fat and yet malnourished.
Eating a bucket of chicken nuggets every day would not be any better for you if they were made with pig fat to bind them than canola oil. It's still a high-calorie, low nutrition food. And in the Anglosphere where 70% of people are overweight or obese and another 20% are a "healthy" bodyweight but are overfat, we need fewer calories and more nutrients.
The Australian Dietary Guidelines suggest 375-450g (women/men) of vegies daily, and 0 to 2.5/3 serves of "discretionary" food daily "for taller and/or more active people, firstly from the other food groups", ie they recommend more meat, wholegrains, fruit, vegies and dairy rather than more pie and beer. If you're normal height and sedentary you get ZERO discretionary serves. Zero.
A "serve" of discretionary food is 600kJ/140kCal. So a Mars bar is 1.5 serves, as is a can of Coke. A Big Mac by itself is 4.5 discretionary serves. A Bud is 1.5. Etc.
Fewer than 4% of Australians get the recommended 375-450g vegies daily, the rest average 180-220g. On average they have 6 discretionary serves a day. So they have too much junk food and not enough vegies.
Instread of KFC chicken nuggets, cook up some chicken with 2 cups of salad or some vegies and beans. If you do that sort of thing often, then it won't matter whether you cook the chicken and vegies with animal fat, butter, olive oil, canola or whatever.
We want to demonise or praise one particular food item, treating food as if were a D&D potion or poison. But it's not like that.
Swimming a couple times a day. Maybe and hour total
Quote from: Kiero on August 17, 2023, 04:03:32 PM
Nutrition-related discussion here. Anyone noticed that canola/rapeseed oil is in virtually everything that has been pre-made/processed now?
Really? Wow, well vegi oil for the most part isn't something the human body evolved to digest. So, I eat only unprocessed meats, some veggie's a little bit of fruit and some cheese. Wine too. Nothing else.
Quote from: Scooter on August 17, 2023, 09:20:57 PMwell vegi oil for the most part isn't something the human body evolved to digest. So, I eat only unprocessed meats, some veggie's a little bit of fruit and some cheese. Wine too. Nothing else.
There are those who reckon that humans did not evolve to eat meat, or dairy, or grains. Nobody seems to have come after fresh fruit and vegetables yet, but give it time, I'm sure there'll be a "wholegrains only!" diet sometime soon. We've had the carnivore and vegan ones, after all.
But if anything
can be so argued, it's alcohol - that's why we get
intoxicated - our body can process alcohol, but we can consume it more quickly than it can do so, thus making us drunk. We haven't evolved the ability to quickly process a lot of alcohol. So if you want to talk about "what our bodies evolved to do," you have to give up wine.
But that would be dumb. Eat what you want. You have a human right to eat shit food or good food. But don't pretend it's based on anything other than personal preference.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on August 17, 2023, 11:35:04 PM
There are those who reckon that humans did not evolve to eat meat,
Yes, morons do exist.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on August 17, 2023, 09:08:40 PM
Sure. It's just shortening. Helps bind stuff together. That used to be animal fat, then over time became vegetable fats, including seed oils.
Not in itself a worry. The issues with processed food aren't the seed oils or whatever themselves, it's that oils are higher-calorie (9kCal per gram of fats vs 4 for protein and carbohydrates), and that processed food is never high in protein-rich stuff or fruit and vegetables. So you become fat and yet malnourished.
Eating a bucket of chicken nuggets every day would not be any better for you if they were made with pig fat to bind them than canola oil. It's still a high-calorie, low nutrition food. And in the Anglosphere where 70% of people are overweight or obese and another 20% are a "healthy" bodyweight but are overfat, we need fewer calories and more nutrients.
The Australian Dietary Guidelines suggest 375-450g (women/men) of vegies daily, and 0 to 2.5/3 serves of "discretionary" food daily "for taller and/or more active people, firstly from the other food groups", ie they recommend more meat, wholegrains, fruit, vegies and dairy rather than more pie and beer. If you're normal height and sedentary you get ZERO discretionary serves. Zero.
A "serve" of discretionary food is 600kJ/140kCal. So a Mars bar is 1.5 serves, as is a can of Coke. A Big Mac by itself is 4.5 discretionary serves. A Bud is 1.5. Etc.
Fewer than 4% of Australians get the recommended 375-450g vegies daily, the rest average 180-220g. On average they have 6 discretionary serves a day. So they have too much junk food and not enough vegies.
Instread of KFC chicken nuggets, cook up some chicken with 2 cups of salad or some vegies and beans. If you do that sort of thing often, then it won't matter whether you cook the chicken and vegies with animal fat, butter, olive oil, canola or whatever.
We want to demonise or praise one particular food item, treating food as if were a D&D potion or poison. But it's not like that.
That's nice. But as someone who doesn't eat shit in the first place, it does actually matter to me whether I'm taking in crap that's been deliberately added to food for no (positive) reason. And what options I have for feeding my children. So your point about chicken nuggets and Bud are completely irrelevant. Nor could I give a toss what the average dullard who hasn't got a clue about their health does.
"Vegetable" oils (actually processed seed oils) are toxic garbage. Rapeseed is the worst of them, it disrupts your gut bacteria and causes inflammation. It's no coincidence that there's been an explosion of inflammation-related health conditions in the last few decades when this crap is put into everything. Or worse stupid people are replacing the olive oil they cooked with for decades with rapeseed oil.
It absolutely matters what you cook your food in, especially if you've gone to the trouble of actually preparing the thing for yourself, instead of buying something pre-made.
Quote from: Kiero on August 18, 2023, 06:26:38 AM
Or worse stupid people are replacing the olive oil they cooked with for decades with rapeseed oil.
It absolutely matters what you cook your food in, especially if you've gone to the trouble of actually preparing the thing for yourself, instead of buying something pre-made.
Yes, good olive oil is the only oil we stock. We save some rendered fat in the 'fridge for other small uses but we air fry not oil fry. Air fryer has made my cooking so much easier
Quote from: Scooter on August 18, 2023, 09:46:53 AM
Yes, good olive oil is the only oil we stock. We save some rendered fat in the 'fridge for other small uses but we air fry not oil fry. Air fryer has made my cooking so much easier
There's all this bollocks out there about the relatively low smoke point of extra virgin olive oil - it's not for frying with! But you're better off with some form of animal fat for frying in any case.
Quote from: Kiero on August 19, 2023, 06:26:31 AM
Quote from: Scooter on August 18, 2023, 09:46:53 AM
Yes, good olive oil is the only oil we stock. We save some rendered fat in the 'fridge for other small uses but we air fry not oil fry. Air fryer has made my cooking so much easier
There's all this bollocks out there about the relatively low smoke point of extra virgin olive oil - it's not for frying with! But you're better off with some form of animal fat for frying in any case.
100% agree. Tried and died years ago with olive oil frying. Rendered bacon fat works. Should have listened to my Grandmother in the first place. That's what they used on the farm >100 years ago.
Quote from: Kiero on August 18, 2023, 06:26:38 AM
That's nice. But as someone who doesn't eat shit in the first place, it does actually matter to me whether I'm taking in crap that's been deliberately added to food for no (positive) reason. And what options I have for feeding my children.
Not really. 80/20 rule and all that. If you've got a few basic things down then the rest is just commentary.
It'd matter if you were squatting 280kg and wanted to squat 300kg, or if you were at 12% bodyfat and wanted to be at 10%, or running 5km in 17'20" and wanted to run it in 17'00". But for health? It's fussing over nothing.
But everyone needs a hobby, I guess.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on August 20, 2023, 12:14:03 AM
Not really. 80/20 rule and all that. If you've got a few basic things down then the rest is just commentary.
It'd matter if you were squatting 280kg and wanted to squat 300kg, or if you were at 12% bodyfat and wanted to be at 10%, or running 5km in 17'20" and wanted to run it in 17'00". But for health? It's fussing over nothing.
But everyone needs a hobby, I guess.
The chronic inflammation that lots of people are suffering from is hardly a 20%/rounding error/meh when some of it is being caused deliberately by the people who manufacture food.
I keep it as natural as possible, no processed foods, carbs all from oatmeal and fruits. Getting 200g of protein a day is a chore and does bring in more protein supplentation than I want, but i try to keep calories under control. I think some products fed to people like soda, should be a crime to allow kids to drink. But here we are, spoiled, lazy, easy lives (as a society) with way too many bad calories available and education about good nutrition not offered as it should be to kids and the public.
Interesting talk on testosterone in general, and TRT in particular:
Might watch it if i get to a point where i seriously consider therapy. Have a few benchmarks i want to hit before i consider it (225x5 standing press, 495x5 squat, 555x5 deadlift, and a 275x5 incline press) because i think those numbers are reachable with good sleep, recovery, and nutrition. I will also consider how much further than that i need to be fully functional athlete (because that might be strong enough).
But regarding vegetable/seed/soy oil i have read a few things where they also affect testosterone production. I could care less if an oil or fat is high calorie, i know how to do math. I do not like the fact that many ingredients in modern "food" seem to be testosterone supressors and that sort of thing is not on the label stated clearly. I think eating as natural as possible seems to be the only sure way to go around that. I understand corporatism means doing what sells the best for the least...but the whole testoserone getting beaten down in men at all turns is a strange side effect.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 30, 2023, 05:09:26 PM
But regarding vegetable/seed/soy oil i have read a few things where they also affect testosterone production. I could care less if an oil or fat is high calorie, i know how to do math. I do not like the fact that many ingredients in modern "food" seem to be testosterone supressors and that sort of thing is not on the label stated clearly. I think eating as natural as possible seems to be the only sure way to go around that. I understand corporatism means doing what sells the best for the least...but the whole testoserone getting beaten down in men at all turns is a strange side effect.
I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the additives into processed/prepared food are testosterone suppressors. Men with low testosterone are weak, depressed and easily manipulated.
Same goes the stuff that messes with your immune system (chitin in insect protein) or gut microbiome/inflammatory response (seed oils). Though this is a subtly different, it drives up demand for medication.
I do not know if it is or isnt...but I notice ALOT of coincidences and purposeful actions that really seem to push production of weak men. I read an article where some loon was saying exercise and lifting weights was a gateway for young men to become hard right wingers....
Quote from: oggsmash on August 30, 2023, 08:12:04 PM
I do not know if it is or isnt...but I notice ALOT of coincidences and purposeful actions that really seem to push production of weak men. I read an article where some loon was saying exercise and lifting weights was a gateway for young men to become hard right wingers....
What's wrong with that..?
Isn't it odd that dudes who take pride in their physical fitness and appearance are much less willing to be pushed around by fucktard politicians? It's almost like they have self-confidence and purpose.
In my experience, there's a slight rightwards slant in lifters. I think it's effect rather than cause. The essential left/right question is, "who is responsible for solving my problems, the state or me?" Those with a mindset of "me, obviously" are more likely to do things like take up lifting, improve their diet, etc.
But it's only a slight tendency, because of course you can believe that the state should take care of people's problems - but only for those unable to solve them for themselves, and you should minimise your burden on others. Communist countries have produced a lot of good lifters, after all.
And on the flipside, the right-leaning may say, "You can't tell me what to do!" I've met a number of middle-aged right-wing blokes who will strongly defend their right to be fat, sick and weak.
Add together the left-wing with a sense of community responsibility and the right-wing who are stubbornly useless and the net result is only a slight slant to the right in lifting.
I don't believe there's a conspiracy to make people weak and fat. Human nature does that effectively already, especially when coupled with a consumerist society.
I do not think there is a conspiracy, it is right out in the open. Human nature DOES trend towards people settling and being weak and fat...however there is also within humans to grow mentally and physically far beyond where ever they start. One is just MUCH easier to do and follow. Our cultural influences STRONGLY influence the weaker/easier form of human nature to take over. Professional sports are pushed extremely hard for weak fat people to sit around and marvel at the gladiators on TV...there is ZERO push culturally to encourage adults to engage in sports/fitness/competition themselves. It is something that is almost an oddity to meet a person who engages in recreational sports competition as an adult. Culturally the west pushes people VERY hard to work as many hours as they can to manage to buy as much throw away shit as possible to attempt to fill holes inside themselves there are caused by sitting on their asses and not by needing the new plastithing.
Communists produced great lifters by essentially doing things to encourage propaganda that went exactly against communist ideals. The natural athletes were separated out at VERY young ages and treated extremely well compared to the population to represent how well everyone getting treated the same could succeed in international sports. They essentially operated as massive hypocrites using hardcore nationalism and special treatment to produce those great lifters and other athlete.
Yes to all of those things, but you've missed out the more insidious, Establishment-promoted wokism. Which is designed to produce weak, effeminate and easily-controlled men. Why else do you think all things woke demonises every expression of traditional masculinity?
I didnt miss it. I said its right out in the open. It could not be clearer there is an agenda to promote and establish exactly what you said, I just figured preaching to the choir there was no need to mention the wokes. It also IMO not to weaken men...it is specifically to weaken western men.
Hit 207.5x5 standing press (and just yesterday did 217.5 x 3 x 3), hit 450 x 5 squat, hit 475 x 5 deadlift, hit 252.5 x5 incline. Dont know if benchmarks are doable by Jan, but that is my time table to hit them. Deadlift is still no struggle and more of a returning to prior level so its an effort but not hard. Squat is getting tough, where I am not so certain I would have one more in the tank when I hit 5. Incline got a bit easier (I think due to reducing tonnage across on press and going to triples instead of sets of 5) and press feels like I have something left in the tank when I hit the last set of 3's. I think that will peter out somewhere between next week and 225 for triples. I will adjust entire upper body to texas method once the press stalls with triples. Got sweaty on the mats in a limited fashion ( i am still cautious with burning recovery juice so I limit how much rolling or pad work I do) and no ill effects so far. Once I hit the bench marks I will go to more of a maintenance schedule for a while (3-6 months).
Going to go to a more intermediate protocol for lifting (good old lobster man Rippetoe's TM) with some adjustments (still no bench press will do incline press in place of it.... after full recovery from a pec tear I am paranoid).
To finish a "taper" incline pressed 257.5 x 5, Standing Over head press - 225x3x3, deadlift 495 x 5. I might do some power cleans after this 10-12 week run if it does not break me. It will involve a good deal more volume and I do not know how my age and mileage will tolerate this.
Quote from: Kiero on August 30, 2023, 06:03:18 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 30, 2023, 05:09:26 PM
But regarding vegetable/seed/soy oil i have read a few things where they also affect testosterone production. I could care less if an oil or fat is high calorie, i know how to do math. I do not like the fact that many ingredients in modern "food" seem to be testosterone supressors and that sort of thing is not on the label stated clearly. I think eating as natural as possible seems to be the only sure way to go around that. I understand corporatism means doing what sells the best for the least...but the whole testoserone getting beaten down in men at all turns is a strange side effect.
I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the additives into processed/prepared food are testosterone suppressors. Men with low testosterone are weak, depressed and easily manipulated.
Same goes the stuff that messes with your immune system (chitin in insect protein) or gut microbiome/inflammatory response (seed oils). Though this is a subtly different, it drives up demand for medication.
I think things like trans fats have been found to lower testosterone. But people usually underestimate rather than overestimate their testosterone levels. If you eat normal and healthy food, exercise (especially lifting weights and doing cardio) your testosterone levels will be higher. Mine have always been in normal ranges, but I found they are consistently on the very high end, when I have done 2 hours of exercise regularly (not necessarily every day but at least 3-4 days of two hour session). Mostly though I do 45 minutes a day and that has worked out well.
Right now my most common exercises are weights, shadow boxing, indoor cardio and running. In the past it has typically included stuff like boxing and I may try to find a gym again where I live if I can (though I am getting a little too old for that stuff so I may just do Tai Chi or something, which I have meaning to try for ages).
Quote from: oggsmash on August 30, 2023, 05:09:26 PM
But regarding vegetable/seed/soy oil i have read a few things where they also affect testosterone production. I could care less if an oil or fat is high calorie, i know how to do math. I do not like the fact that many ingredients in modern "food" seem to be testosterone supressors and that sort of thing is not on the label stated clearly. I think eating as natural as possible seems to be the only sure way to go around that. I understand corporatism means doing what sells the best for the least...but the whole testoserone getting beaten down in men at all turns is a strange side effect.
While I am sure there are ingredients in a lot of processed food and stuff that impact testosterone, it is very easy to get your levels checked at your regular doctor visits to see. I honestly think there is probably a lot more damage being done to your heart and brain from some of the modern ways food is made. The salt alone in processed food can't be healthy.
I grew up using things like olive oil, rather than vegetable oil, and I found that to be pretty healthful (I am not particularly averse to vegetable oil on health ground but I do hate the taste of it)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2023, 01:22:20 AM
In my experience, there's a slight rightwards slant in lifters. I think it's effect rather than cause. The essential left/right question is, "who is responsible for solving my problems, the state or me?" Those with a mindset of "me, obviously" are more likely to do things like take up lifting, improve their diet, etc.
But it's only a slight tendency, because of course you can believe that the state should take care of people's problems - but only for those unable to solve them for themselves, and you should minimise your burden on others. Communist countries have produced a lot of good lifters, after all.
And on the flipside, the right-leaning may say, "You can't tell me what to do!" I've met a number of middle-aged right-wing blokes who will strongly defend their right to be fat, sick and weak.
Add together the left-wing with a sense of community responsibility and the right-wing who are stubbornly useless and the net result is only a slight slant to the right in lifting.
I don't believe there's a conspiracy to make people weak and fat. Human nature does that effectively already, especially when coupled with a consumerist society.
I don't understand the politicization of fitness going on at the moment. To me it isn't good for anyone to turn going to the gym into a left versus right issue. Whatever one's politics, it is good for you to eat healthy and work out. I agree with you that there is a slight right wing bent among lifters. This is probably balanced out by some other sports tilting the other way. I always liked boxing gyms because you have a wide range of political opinions and backgrounds present. I don't consider myself a lifter, as I just have always done it as part of a broader martial arts fitness (not really looking to get big so much as make sure I can move well and hit hard).
I also don' think there is any kind of conspiracy to make people fat. But I do think there are some bad ideas taking root, perhaps well intentioned ideas but still bad, that are going to lead us down a road of more people being unhealthy (and you get old enough to see enough friends buried from things like Heart Attacks, you realize fitness matters on a societal level).
Also fitness is a major mood stabilizer. You see this in both animals and people. If a dog doesn't get exercise they start to look like they are losing their will to survive.
Greetings!
Oh yeah. Full, frontal Assault across virtually every industry, sector, and level of society towards producing a lazy, fat, depressed, and easily manipulated population of both men and women. As this general strategy is promoted, along the way there are salient strategic strikes especially targeted at men, with the goal of crushing and minimalizing them in particular. We even have Woke Commie scum REEEing now about people that go to the gym, seek to be in good shape, and be healthy, are more likely to be dangerous, Alt-Right Nazis.
THEN, you have the industrial focus. So many food companies and food processors pour so much junk into the food that are broadly shown to have especially negative and destructive effects on testosterone, and men in particular.
Pharmaceutical Focus--more American women now than ever before are on regular prescriptions of fucking happy pills, anti-depressants, and other mood-altering nonsense. Strangely, the more prescribed medicine American women get pumped with to fight against being fat, depressed, and unmotivated--studies from coast to coast have consistently shown that American women are more mentally ill, more depressed, and more fucking fat and unhealthy now than any time in our history. A majority of American women now are actually OBESE. There are more American women now that weigh 200, 300 pounds or more, than any time in our history. The average American woman is fatter now and actually outweighs the average American man of the 1950's. All of this medical "Help' is a deceptive, corrupting lie. American medical and food industries--as well as psychology, therapy, and counseling industries *want* American women to be fucking fat landwhales, crying, sad, depressed, anti-social, and miserable. All of that keeps American women buying more medicine, chasing after a multi-billion-dollar DIET Industry that does nothing to actually make American women healthier, let alone lose the fucking fat. Just some brief reading of the corrupt counseling industry nakedly exposes the corrupt, fucking GRIFT on a mass scale. Oh, by the way, the numbers of women getting regular therapy and counseling for their fucked up, shattered minds, their blasted emotions, and constant, trainwreck lives full of depression and drama are also at staggering high, record levels. And, of course, we can't forget the legions of doctors that profit immensely from all of the fat surgeries, the endless medical problems with being fat--and the sidecar of beauty treatments, liposuction, collagen, all the endless cosmetic surgeries. All of that is a huge, corrupt, poisonous, multi-tiered complex of industries that PROFIT from keeping women fat, unhealthy, depressed, and miserable.
Oh, yes. Then, we have the entire corrupt, depraved, "Body Positivity" Movement--where women are encouraged to be fat landwhales. Yes, yes, I know, it sounds absurd and ridiculous, but it is true. We have a growing trend where women want to scream, cry, and punish, professionally somehow, medical Physicians that actually criticize the women patients for being fat. Physicians are being pressured to accept that it is good and healthy for a woman to be fat. And yes, as several encounters and testimonies have demonstrated, "Body Positivity" and "Fat Acceptance" are FOR WOMEN ONLY. Men are not supposed to be fat--they need to be hardbodies and ripped. The women, however, can freely choose to be huge and fat--and anyone that has anything negative to say about fat women needs to be screamed at, silenced, punished, and cancelled. "Health at any size"; "Beauty at any size"--all of this corrupt BS is not the ravings of some nutjob on a street corner. It is all promoted in magazines, Hollywood, talk shows, medical seminars and medical offices, counseling groups, popular books, music industry, and so on. Legal sections, as well. It is an insidious, but also broad-front attack entirely designed to promote and encourage huge, obese women, and people in general. But women especially. This evil corruption has become so debased and insidious that even the US MILITARY has now embraced elements of this pernicious philosophy. The United States Army, and the United States Navy, both such branches, have heavily reduced or eliminated entire physical fitness standards and tests--so as to enable huge, fat recruits to be accepted into the military. So, this evil philosophy has even affected our military now, in huge, dramatic ways. HUGE. These vigorous physical standards, tests, and expectations have been long-established--DECADES, Centuries even in their inspiration. That's all gone now, or in a process of heavy modification, reduction, and review, to accommodate huge, fat people. Of course, standards are also especially modified and supervised for the benefit and promotion of women. That directive comes straight from the brass, and any resistance to such directives results in career-ending punishments for officers and NCO's that dare to protest or resist.
Many schools throughout the country have cut or eliminated physical fitness, "PE" programs. This results in more young children getting fat--or staying fat. This, again, is all more or less recent TRUTH, recent developments and studies. Physicians have lamented the studies that indicate that America has a staggering high rate of OBESE children now. Figures that are absolutely unheard of--are now the NORM. Ten- and 12-years old boys and girls being HUGE and FAT, far beyond their height and size. Again, the numbers and rates are staggering high, when compared to past trends and levels. By the way, children that are FAT have extraordinary degrees of difficulty successfully losing weight. Most of these children will likely be doomed to be huge and fat their entire lives. Isn't that special? Our nation-wide education system of schools, and the teachers and administrators involved in this mass-scale perniciousness, neglect, and corruption, are such wonderful, deeply trust-worthy professionals and custodians of our children, right?
Ah, well. Our country is in serious trouble, and being convulsed by a multi-pronged, multi-leveled attack designed to corrupt and destroy this country. It is designed to bring this country down, across the board, on many different levels. Women and men alike are targeted, in different ways. It is all particular, evil, and damned right it is entirely intentional. All of these elements are like the ingredients to a recipe, with particular goals in mind.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
There is no question at all a fatter, sicker, lower testosterone population is simply a good deal easier to control. The whole "normal levels" for testosterone is also....misleading. The range is H U G E. When its a range of 200-850+ ng/dl with no real baseline it IMO is a dubious measurement especially when we might have a person who has never had his level measured till he turned 45...doctors says you are 400 and good to go....with no way to know if the guy had been operating at a baseline of 700 for most of his life.
That said I think diet and exercise is a pretty good way to keep hormone levels and overall health at good levels, I think the whole testosterone levels, especially around TRT, discussion is tainted heavily by all the "experts" talking around it. One side wants people taking boosters no matter their levels and the other side wants no one taking boosters no matter their level. The entire source of "toxic masculinity" is literally testosterone. I also would not consider myself a "lifter" and the reasons I bother are age and to continue to be functional in my chosen martial arts training. I have no idea how politics skew where I lift weights at in general...I can tell you how they seem to skew among the top 20 percent or so strength wise...which is interesting as a trend.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 09, 2023, 07:56:22 AM
There is no question at all a fatter, sicker, lower testosterone population is simply a good deal easier to control. The whole "normal levels" for testosterone is also....misleading. The range is H U G E. When its a range of 200-850+ ng/dl with no real baseline it IMO is a dubious measurement especially when we might have a person who has never had his level measured till he turned 45...doctors says you are 400 and good to go....with no way to know if the guy had been operating at a baseline of 700 for most of his life.
That said I think diet and exercise is a pretty good way to keep hormone levels and overall health at good levels, I think the whole testosterone levels, especially around TRT, discussion is tainted heavily by all the "experts" talking around it. One side wants people taking boosters no matter their levels and the other side wants no one taking boosters no matter their level. The entire source of "toxic masculinity" is literally testosterone. I also would not consider myself a "lifter" and the reasons I bother are age and to continue to be functional in my chosen martial arts training. I have no idea how politics skew where I lift weights at in general...I can tell you how they seem to skew among the top 20 percent or so strength wise...which is interesting as a trend.
I personally don't think this is about control and I am with Aaron in that I don't see it as a vast conspiracy. I just think there are people who have bought into ideas about things like body positivity that are appealing because they ask very little of us and they seem like they are being kind to people who are overweight. And I think media has been very lazy in covering this stuff. The problem is obesity kills, and quality of life is much worse when you are obese. I come from a family of big eaters and with plenty of folks who are overweight and the health issues that crop up with obesity are pretty clear to see (and you can see how much healthier people become when they lose weight after a health scare). My weight has fluctuated over the years. I don't believe I have ever been obese. But the worst I ever felt in my life was when I was as low as 120 and when I was as high as 180-90). In that later it not only made me sluggish, I was having trouble with asthma, sleep apnea, etc. You can just feel how unhealthy it is for your body when you get to unsafe weights. On the lower end of the spectrum, at 120, I was told by my doctor I was on the verge of organ failure (keep in mind this was weigthloss that was in part due to Crohns so there were additional health factors at play). I also kept getting these very alarming feelings of fluttering and breathlessness in my lungs. The bottom line was my doctor said I had to gain weight and muscle again (prior to being 120 I was very healthy, worked out and was doing kickboxing). Once I got back to 140-150, those symptoms went away.
On the T levels, I mean I am no doctor but I think that is about averages and what is normal before you start to have problems. But a good doctor does look at you as an individual (for instance I have Crohns disease and other chronic conditions so my doctor wants my B vitamins and similar readings way higher than the baseline----and I feel the results keeping them on the higher end of the threshold). So I take B vitamin supplements every morning which puts them through the roof. Most doctors I have found, if you are on the lower end of the threshold with any reading like that, are often not going to simply treat it as normal (but I think it probably depends on how everything else is looking and what follow up bloodwork shows).
If someone genuinely needs testosterone replacement therapy, I am not opposed to it, but I personally don't take any medications beyond what I need to keep my body functioning (so were my T levels to be low in the future, I would use natural means like exercise and a healthy diet to keep it as good as I can). Just based on what I know about T replacement, I don't think it is particularly safe and having been involved in sports and hobbies where steroids and other types of performance enhancing drugs are prevalent, you do start to see the negative consequences of that stuff sooner than people realize. One big concern I have is how much of this is just normal in the youtube lifting community for example (and in the fitness community as well---often not even for competitive reasons, which I at least understand, for for purely aesthetic ones). Also I think a lot of people who do have lower T levels could probably elevate them if they lost weight and exercised.
I do agree about the baseline and age. I think they should be taking readings of all these things over the course of your life so they know how dramatic a change you actually are experiencing. That said I think way, way too many people are being given T replacement therapy (just like way, way too many people were being given opioids a few years ago)
All I got from Shark's post is that he doesn't like the "BBW" section on PornHub.
Fat, weak and sickly populations are not harder or easier to control than skinny healthy ones. After all, at this moment in the news we can see that there are some rather authoritarian governments who have a lot of skinny angry young blokes, and they're controlling them very effectively by having them prison camp guards in North Korea, or run around machinegunning people in Ukraine or Israel. Governments will always figure out a way to play you like a cheap fiddle, they're creative that way.
I don't think anyone's deliberately making the West fat and weak. I think humans are naturally gluttonous and lazy. Back in caveman days, food supply was unreliable, and there was no proper medical care. So if you had genes that made you say, "I'll run up that rocky hill, and then afterwards I'll just have the salad," then one day you either broke your ankle and died of septicaemia, or it was six weeks between gazelles and you and your sixpack abs perished horribly. Whereas your gluttonous lazy buddy survived to pass on his gluttonous lazy genes.
Fortunately, we have free will to overcome our natural urges to binge and lie around and murder people who annoy us. And thus modern Western civilisation has come to be - fat, weak and sickly, but generally fairly nice to each-other (at least compared to many other parts of the world). We can be better still - a healthy bodyweight, strong and healthy - and yet still nice to each-other.
We''ve got some rings in the gym recently and are playing with them a bit to see how it carries over to the barbell stuff and general health. So far it seems like it doesn't add a pound to the barbell stuff, but it does make it feel better - more stable. And like all bodyweight stuff from chinups to running, it's a good check on the numbers, to see whether the ten pounds you added really did help you, or not.
Skinny people angry with NO GUNS are pretty easy to control. But if you can convince people to put their own shackles on...why wouldnt you? The USA is pretty sold on treating someone's symptoms forever and never fixing a problem. If fitness were pushed, and I mean pushed hard...like mandatory PE for a kid's entire school experience (and I do not mean a teacher standing around while kids do as they please for 45 minutes) the USA would be functioning and thinking differently. Fat sick people are naturally more dependent, and governments L O V E dependent people. Massive mega corporations love them too. Do I think this was some carefully engineered conspiracy for decades? No. But I do think smart people look at data, demographics, health information and trends and the simple fact is fat sick people being more populous is very good for people in power in the USA. Being strong and fit is being independent on at least a very basic level...that tends to build.
Steroid abuse and conflating it to TRT is sort of red herring territory. I do think there is no effort to treat lower test, as there is money to be made on the pro test side by writing a script and there is an agenda to be met on the side that likes men with low T. Comparing it to pain killers....not the same at all. I do think there is a population of guys who get TRT that do so to continue to operate as they were at 25 instead of how they probably should be hormonally at 55. This is also something I have no issue with what so ever. A standard doctor is not going to prescribe treatment for a 55 year old with a 350ng level....even if that guy had a 700ng level when he was 25. So the level is a really bad metric, and honestly if you are symptomatic it should be enough to get the stuff if you want it. I do not know where I will be when I hit 55. I can say right now at almost 52 I am pushing numbers that tell me I probably have no need for treatment/enhancement. That might change at 55.
Also regarding not wanting to be bigger...the bigger they are the harder they hit is as true as it gets. Now this of course assumes the right kind of bigger.
Regarding lazy and gluttonous....I am not so sure the food insecurity from 20k years ago is the main reason people are much fatter and sicker now in just 50 years in the USA. People are naturally comfort seeking in all things, they actively avoid discomfort. I am sure that have been dudes with 6 packs for thousands of years, the greeks seemed to idolize it so I do not buy its genes that created the problem. People are driven by impulses and without heavy influence to build habits to the contrary humans tend to be driven by their most base impulses. There has been NO effort to drive people to seek a little discomfort for a looong time. These things like mandating exercise for kids in school alone would make a generational difference....yet it doesnt get done....why is that?
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 12:13:49 PM
Regarding lazy and gluttonous....I am not so sure the food insecurity from 20k years ago is the main reason people are much fatter and sicker now in just 50 years in the USA. People are naturally comfort seeking in all things, they actively avoid discomfort. I am sure that have been dudes with 6 packs for thousands of years, the greeks seemed to idolize it so I do not buy its genes that created the problem. People are driven by impulses and without heavy influence to build habits to the contrary humans tend to be driven by their most base impulses. There has been NO effort to drive people to seek a little discomfort for a looong time. These things like mandating exercise for kids in school alone would make a generational difference....yet it doesnt get done....why is that?
Do they not have physical education in schools anymore? (I remember having it the way up to 12th grade but graduated in like 95 or so). When I was in college I had to take 2 fitness electives (if I remember I chose weights and archery) and I had to take 2 courses on health science. They were also only worth like half a credit each so they didn't eat into other subjects you needed to learn.
I do think the message that people shouldn't worry about their weight, that they shouldn't push themselves too hard to exercise is a problem. Obviously that can go too far in the other direction (you don't want to over exercise either). But right now in the US I think a combination of our diets, a lack of physical fitness are pretty far from going in the direction of too much exercise and dieting. Also when people do diet, they tend to rely on approaches that are extremely unpleasant, based on fads, powered by celebrities and generally not something that is sustainable over many many years. A lot of it really is just portion size. Americans have a horrible sense of what portion sizes to eat for meals. You can still eat good food that tastes great, if you eat less of it.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 11:55:06 AM
Also regarding not wanting to be bigger...the bigger they are the harder they hit is as true as it gets. Now this of course assumes the right kind of bigger.
Size definitely matters, I wasn't suggesting that it didn't. I think it can be unhealthy for your body thought to pursue too big a size for your frame (especially if you are taking testosterone to get their and taking other supplements that are legal but everyone knows are bad for you). But I agree size matters. I was involved in lots of martial arts through the years and at a tournament that was labeled Open, I had to compete against a kickboxer who was about 200 pounds (I was 146). I ended up on the ground with a broken nose and size had everything to do with it because I was better than him on paper and on the score board. That said, there is a point of diminishing returns with size and like you say, not all size is good for fighting. If you look at a lot of mixed martial arts fighters, their physicals are very muscles but they do tend to be leaner, and they don't do things like work their chest the way a body builder does (since i am not really involved actively in martial arts or boxing, I have been working my chest more because I do like how it looks and feels, but were I to go back, that is an area I would not want to be as big as it is now). Also muscle provides armor for your body in combat sports. You can't be a rail. You need to have some muscle, but what kind of muscle you need is going to be dictated by the particular martial art, the weight category you are competing in and your frame (that last one is very important)
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 11:46:35 AM
Steroid abuse and conflating it to TRT is sort of red herring territory. I do think there is no effort to treat lower test, as there is money to be made on the pro test side by writing a script and there is an agenda to be met on the side that likes men with low T. Comparing it to pain killers....not the same at all. I do think there is a population of guys who get TRT that do so to continue to operate as they were at 25 instead of how they probably should be hormonally at 55. This is also something I have no issue with what so ever. A standard doctor is not going to prescribe treatment for a 55 year old with a 350ng level....even if that guy had a 700ng level when he was 25. So the level is a really bad metric, and honestly if you are symptomatic it should be enough to get the stuff if you want it. I do not know where I will be when I hit 55. I can say right now at almost 52 I am pushing numbers that tell me I probably have no need for treatment/enhancement. That might change at 55.
I know lots of people on T who should not be. And it is prevalent in the lifting community online. I don't think doctors should be handing it out like candy, but it does seem they are doing so (haven't asked these people how they game the system, so I don't know what they are doing, but I would imagine dieting so your levels get low, going to a urologist and telling them you are having performance issues, might do it). Also I have had a urologist say to me if your T levels get low we can put you on testosterone (and I didn't even ask or complain of symptoms). It seems to there was a big push for T replacement a few years ago similar to the push for pain killers. It is possible I am wrong here, but just from going to gyms for ages, that and anabolic steroids were all pretty rampant it seemed. And like I said, if people are competing, I at least understand. I think it is still not good, but I can see the function it is serving. I don't understand if people are doing it to simply look good (which is what you have a ton of right now on youtube if you watch a lot of lifting channels). But I don't know the ins and outs of it, as I haven't taken steroids or T myself (and I wouldn't even take the later were my levels to get low-----but then I don't take pain killers for anything either---I just don't like loading my body on medication and hormone replacements seems like a very hefty load)
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 10, 2023, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 11:55:06 AM
Also regarding not wanting to be bigger...the bigger they are the harder they hit is as true as it gets. Now this of course assumes the right kind of bigger.
Size definitely matters, I wasn't suggesting that it didn't. I think it can be unhealthy for your body thought to pursue too big a size for your frame (especially if you are taking testosterone to get their and taking other supplements that are legal but everyone knows are bad for you). But I agree size matters. I was involved in lots of martial arts through the years and at a tournament that was labeled Open, I had to compete against a kickboxer who was about 200 pounds (I was 146). I ended up on the ground with a broken nose and size had everything to do with it because I was better than him on paper and on the score board. That said, there is a point of diminishing returns with size and like you say, not all size is good for fighting. If you look at a lot of mixed martial arts fighters, their physicals are very muscles but they do tend to be leaner, and they don't do things like work their chest the way a body builder does (since i am not really involved actively in martial arts or boxing, I have been working my chest more because I do like how it looks and feels, but were I to go back, that is an area I would not want to be as big as it is now). Also muscle provides armor for your body in combat sports. You can't be a rail. You need to have some muscle, but what kind of muscle you need is going to be dictated by the particular martial art, the weight category you are competing in and your frame (that last one is very important)
IME no one gets "too big" for sports or martial arts unless they are taking steroids. Not with lean muscular body weight. Most MMA fighters are not that lean due to practicality to fight, its because weight cutting is abused badly and there are guys who if you saw them out of fight camp you would not recognize them (170lb'ers are often jacked 205lbs at least) in many cases. I do agree there is no practical advantage to having enormous pectorals (MMA fighters have a gamut of things they have done over the years often simply following faddish training that could convince them they do not have to run) but lots and lots of MMA fighters now do what would be considered pretty basic strength training these days.
Even taking TRT is not going to make you "too big" for competing...I think Vitor showed us that. There is a point of diminishing returns based on a person's frame size where the continued gain of muscle inside a weight class will become detrimental...however for life in general and being able to fight...not so sure about that, if you are training your strength and martial arts at the same time as your end size is going to have limits both genetically and from recovery resources available in training vigorously in two directions at one time. Now I speak in this matter as a person who has competed, trained in, trained competitors and cornered for over 100 MMA fights over the course of 31 years.
I agree a person can hit an unhealthy size for their frame, but not as a lean muscular person who is not heavily abusing PEDs. As a fat person yes. No one accidently gets too big to be effective though. Most of the meatheads I have seen over the years who are physically incompetent yet looked muscular and lean were almost always body builders who had tacked some glycogen filled fluff muscles on top of bodies that were bad at sports through the use of chemicals. So these were people who had "outgrown" their frames with regard to practicality, but not because of lifting alot, it was because about 30 pounds of that meat would have never happened without some juice.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 10, 2023, 12:41:00 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 11:46:35 AM
Steroid abuse and conflating it to TRT is sort of red herring territory. I do think there is no effort to treat lower test, as there is money to be made on the pro test side by writing a script and there is an agenda to be met on the side that likes men with low T. Comparing it to pain killers....not the same at all. I do think there is a population of guys who get TRT that do so to continue to operate as they were at 25 instead of how they probably should be hormonally at 55. This is also something I have no issue with what so ever. A standard doctor is not going to prescribe treatment for a 55 year old with a 350ng level....even if that guy had a 700ng level when he was 25. So the level is a really bad metric, and honestly if you are symptomatic it should be enough to get the stuff if you want it. I do not know where I will be when I hit 55. I can say right now at almost 52 I am pushing numbers that tell me I probably have no need for treatment/enhancement. That might change at 55.
I know lots of people on T who should not be. And it is prevalent in the lifting community online. I don't think doctors should be handing it out like candy, but it does seem they are doing so (haven't asked these people how they game the system, so I don't know what they are doing, but I would imagine dieting so your levels get low, going to a urologist and telling them you are having performance issues, might do it). Also I have had a urologist say to me if your T levels get low we can put you on testosterone (and I didn't even ask or complain of symptoms). It seems to there was a big push for T replacement a few years ago similar to the push for pain killers. It is possible I am wrong here, but just from going to gyms for ages, that and anabolic steroids were all pretty rampant it seemed. And like I said, if people are competing, I at least understand. I think it is still not good, but I can see the function it is serving. I don't understand if people are doing it to simply look good (which is what you have a ton of right now on youtube if you watch a lot of lifting channels). But I don't know the ins and outs of it, as I haven't taken steroids or T myself (and I wouldn't even take the later were my levels to get low-----but then I don't take pain killers for anything either---I just don't like loading my body on medication and hormone replacements seems like a very hefty load)
Doctors are not handing it out like crazy as with what happened with pain meds. Most doctors will not prescribe it....HOWEVER there are "clinics" that will gladly prescribe you TRT if you present symptoms. Here is the issue YOU do not really get to decide if they need it or not and that is largely because the need for it is so poorly defined. The taking of a level is highly manipulatable by the person seeking to be tested, and the level range is completely useless unless the person is damn near a corpse with his levels. Steroids have always been rampant (Have been around the iron off and on since 1985) around gyms. Now they still are but there are also the "Mens health" posters up where you can contact a doctor online to help you with your Low T symptoms. Now I am not for taking drugs either...but this country throws pills at people for everything under the sun from being too fat to having suicidal depression. Testosterone treatment does in many, many, many cases seem to actually clear up the problem for the dude in regards to symptoms at least for what that is worth.
I think of Testosterone treatment for probably most people to be elective to a large degree. It is not for you or me to decide what they *need* however. Out of curiosity how many actual steroid abusers have you known on a fairly close personal level? How about TRT recipients? I know a fair number of both and IME they are not the same sorts at all so the comparisons are off here (internet personalities not withstanding...I do love how many lifetime natties are out there loaded on TRT) regarding the types of people who fell into those slots.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 12:58:23 PM
I think of Testosterone treatment for probably most people to be elective to a large degree. It is not for you or me to decide what they *need* however. Out of curiosity how many actual steroid abusers have you known on a fairly close personal level? How about TRT recipients? I know a fair number of both and IME they are not the same sorts at all so the comparisons are off here (internet personalities not withstanding...I do love how many lifetime natties are out there loaded on TRT) regarding the types of people who fell into those slots.
I am not saying they are the same thing. I get that lots of people are on T to simply stay at the level they were ten years ago or something. I would say at least 20, probably more on steroids. For T I am not sure but similar ballpark and a lot of cross over.
For internet personalities, it is pretty massive, but I also think that is starting to trickle down. You just see more young men in the gym who look like they are on a lot of something (and I am old so I don't have the same window into what that something is, but it is definitely something). People who are abusing steroids are often pretty easy to spot. But with T I don't know. I can't detect that by look. I am just more alarmed how many people seem to be saying they are relying on it (on youtube, among some people I know etc).
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 12:58:23 PM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 10, 2023, 12:41:00 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 11:46:35 AM
Steroid abuse and conflating it to TRT is sort of red herring territory. I do think there is no effort to treat lower test, as there is money to be made on the pro test side by writing a script and there is an agenda to be met on the side that likes men with low T. Comparing it to pain killers....not the same at all. I do think there is a population of guys who get TRT that do so to continue to operate as they were at 25 instead of how they probably should be hormonally at 55. This is also something I have no issue with what so ever. A standard doctor is not going to prescribe treatment for a 55 year old with a 350ng level....even if that guy had a 700ng level when he was 25. So the level is a really bad metric, and honestly if you are symptomatic it should be enough to get the stuff if you want it. I do not know where I will be when I hit 55. I can say right now at almost 52 I am pushing numbers that tell me I probably have no need for treatment/enhancement. That might change at 55.
I know lots of people on T who should not be. And it is prevalent in the lifting community online. I don't think doctors should be handing it out like candy, but it does seem they are doing so (haven't asked these people how they game the system, so I don't know what they are doing, but I would imagine dieting so your levels get low, going to a urologist and telling them you are having performance issues, might do it). Also I have had a urologist say to me if your T levels get low we can put you on testosterone (and I didn't even ask or complain of symptoms). It seems to there was a big push for T replacement a few years ago similar to the push for pain killers. It is possible I am wrong here, but just from going to gyms for ages, that and anabolic steroids were all pretty rampant it seemed. And like I said, if people are competing, I at least understand. I think it is still not good, but I can see the function it is serving. I don't understand if people are doing it to simply look good (which is what you have a ton of right now on youtube if you watch a lot of lifting channels). But I don't know the ins and outs of it, as I haven't taken steroids or T myself (and I wouldn't even take the later were my levels to get low-----but then I don't take pain killers for anything either---I just don't like loading my body on medication and hormone replacements seems like a very hefty load)
Now I am not for taking drugs either...but this country throws pills at people for everything under the sun from being too fat to having suicidal depression. Testosterone treatment does in many, many, many cases seem to actually clear up the problem for the dude in regards to symptoms at least for what that is worth.
I am skeptical that it is clearing anything up other than the natural aging process (something I think can be mitigated by good food, vitamins and exercise) for most people. But I should be clear, I don't agree with throwing pills at everything. I think that is a bad feature of US culture. I have to take two medications, which I would rather not take, in order to prevent something more catastrophic happening. And I don't put anything else in my body. I have had surgeries and rejected offers of pain killers. I don't take aspirin, thera-flu, asthma medication, etc. I may be too far in the opposite direction but I don't like how medications make me feel so I avoid them.
To address specifically gaming a system...well some places are set up to prescribe if the person coming in is symptomatic (which makes more sense than some arbitrary range) others want a blood test but often mention the person getting the test should look into what can cause a crashed test and "make sure to avoid that" (this was how so many MMA fighters were getting exemptions back in the TRT crazy days) come get the test tomorrow. These places make money to give the dude in question what he has come to them for (and IME the guy always wants the treatment and has usually already been shot down by his regular internist...who strangely will throw strong pain killers and every other drug for everything else at him ...but not T). So as I mentioned I think it is at this point a bit like plastic surgery...people want it, they get it. I do not know why women get fake boobs, but they want them and know the health risks so god bless em. Same IMO for TRT, you want it go get it. The big advantage to this is at least the clinic, though financially incentivized to prescribe is also financially incentivized to keep a reasonable range and frequent tests for the client (as too much can cause some issues). I am not for it (for me) because it does not look for a root cause (I think a 35 year old is full of shit if he says his T level is low and he has done all he can to address it already) and more importantly creates a form of dependence. Like I said though, at 55 I might have a different attitude. I know so many people my age who pop pills all month to be up and about and still feel like shit I do not think taking a shot every now and again to feel 25 is going to be that bad if I have degraded by then. I know several people on TRT and the one common thread is they all rave about it (several not avid lifters, but are very active)...so I do have a bias towards accepting for myself down the road.
I do not know how old you are Bedrock, so I am not so sure how we line up with how we feel after, during, and recovering from training. I can understand your point of view to avoid taking stuff you may become reliant on...but I can also tell you my position on such a thing was a lot different at 25, then at 35, then at 45 and as I roll so close to 55 it keeps changing a little bit.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 12:49:39 PM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 10, 2023, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 11:55:06 AM
Also regarding not wanting to be bigger...the bigger they are the harder they hit is as true as it gets. Now this of course assumes the right kind of bigger.
Size definitely matters, I wasn't suggesting that it didn't. I think it can be unhealthy for your body thought to pursue too big a size for your frame (especially if you are taking testosterone to get their and taking other supplements that are legal but everyone knows are bad for you). But I agree size matters. I was involved in lots of martial arts through the years and at a tournament that was labeled Open, I had to compete against a kickboxer who was about 200 pounds (I was 146). I ended up on the ground with a broken nose and size had everything to do with it because I was better than him on paper and on the score board. That said, there is a point of diminishing returns with size and like you say, not all size is good for fighting. If you look at a lot of mixed martial arts fighters, their physicals are very muscles but they do tend to be leaner, and they don't do things like work their chest the way a body builder does (since i am not really involved actively in martial arts or boxing, I have been working my chest more because I do like how it looks and feels, but were I to go back, that is an area I would not want to be as big as it is now). Also muscle provides armor for your body in combat sports. You can't be a rail. You need to have some muscle, but what kind of muscle you need is going to be dictated by the particular martial art, the weight category you are competing in and your frame (that last one is very important)
IME no one gets "too big" for sports or martial arts unless they are taking steroids. Not with lean muscular body weight. Most MMA fighters are not that lean due to practicality to fight, its because weight cutting is abused badly and there are guys who if you saw them out of fight camp you would not recognize them (170lb'ers are often jacked 205lbs at least) in many cases. I do agree there is no practical advantage to having enormous pectorals (MMA fighters have a gamut of things they have done over the years often simply following faddish training that could convince them they do not have to run) but lots and lots of MMA fighters now do what would be considered pretty basic strength training these days.
No, I agree, people who use steroids in boxing gyms, muay thai gyms, MMA gyms, they are using it for things like recovery. The last thing a fighter needs is to jump to another weight category when they are trying to stay inside one. I think the leanest is actually both the weight category and the fighting. You can't strong man physique in stuff like muay thai or boxing. And body builder physique wuoldnt' work well either. Both are packing on a lot of extra weight (even if it is muscle) that can slow you down. Obviously there are exceptions. You will occasionally see people with these physiques who do well. but even on the heavy weight side, there is a point of diminishing returns. But that shouldn't be taken to mean it's opposite. Size still matters, and in a given weight category, you should generally put your money on the bigger, heavier fighter. But footwork is everything in fighting. If even had a small belly back when I was training regularly (and I mean small) that completely would throw off my ability to move around in sparring and competition. Same if I overdeveloped certain muscles. That doesn't mean you want to be rail thin though, nor do you want to be 7 percent body fat or something
I do agree that there is more strength training in MMA. Even back when I was young and doing this stuff very seriously weight training was a big part of it. When I first started Muay Thai, building up our muscles for armor was one of the very first things they had us do. And you want strong muscles if you are hitting people (though the aim is generally towards more explosive movements). Even before I got into muay thai and was doing something much more speed oriented prior to that (TKD) I had already started lifting. And I have been lifting pretty regularly (aside from periods of ill health) since that time. I am a big believer in the benefits of lifting for combat sports and martial arts. You are just tougher if you have muscle on you (but you do need to understand what kind of muscle your physique is built for).
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 01:10:49 PM
I do not know how old you are Bedrock, so I am not so sure how we line up with how we feel after, during, and recovering from training. I can understand your point of view to avoid taking stuff you may become reliant on...but I can also tell you my position on such a thing was a lot different at 25, then at 35, then at 45 and as I roll so close to 55 it keeps changing a little bit.
I am in my late 40s. But am probably just getting to the point where I can say my muscles are experiencing some change. At the same time, I watched my grandfather who was a boxer, adapt to each decade of aging, so I intend to do the same (i.e. eventually my runs will become walks, I will lift lighter weights, and strive more for things like good heart health, etc). That process doesn't particularly bother me.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 10, 2023, 01:26:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 01:10:49 PM
I do not know how old you are Bedrock, so I am not so sure how we line up with how we feel after, during, and recovering from training. I can understand your point of view to avoid taking stuff you may become reliant on...but I can also tell you my position on such a thing was a lot different at 25, then at 35, then at 45 and as I roll so close to 55 it keeps changing a little bit.
I am in my late 40s. But am probably just getting to the point where I can say my muscles are experiencing some change. At the same time, I watched my grandfather who was a boxer, adapt to each decade of aging, so I intend to do the same (i.e. eventually my runs will become walks, I will lift lighter weights, and strive more for things like good heart health, etc). That process doesn't particularly bother me.
I can assure you that you passed that point a decade or more ago where muscles have changed. Its not usually appearance, its the ability to "red line" and bounce back. We often think this has not happened as we age because with age comes increased experience and the ability to relax in process which creates efficiency...if pushed to red line though...we suddenly see a very clear difference in 20 year olds and 40 plus year olds. I have no idea how hard you ever pushed yourself with resistance training though, I assure you there is a difference there with the same issue. Keeping fit and lifting has helped give you the appearance of little changing and the fact you probably do not get into any "red line" situations any more at an advanced age (which there is not much reason to unless you are going to start taking ring fights with 22 year olds).
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 01:36:14 PM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 10, 2023, 01:26:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 01:10:49 PM
I do not know how old you are Bedrock, so I am not so sure how we line up with how we feel after, during, and recovering from training. I can understand your point of view to avoid taking stuff you may become reliant on...but I can also tell you my position on such a thing was a lot different at 25, then at 35, then at 45 and as I roll so close to 55 it keeps changing a little bit.
I am in my late 40s. But am probably just getting to the point where I can say my muscles are experiencing some change. At the same time, I watched my grandfather who was a boxer, adapt to each decade of aging, so I intend to do the same (i.e. eventually my runs will become walks, I will lift lighter weights, and strive more for things like good heart health, etc). That process doesn't particularly bother me.
I can assure you that you passed that point a decade or more ago where muscles have changed. Its not usually appearance, its the ability to "red line" and bounce back. We often think this has not happened as we age because with age comes increased experience and the ability to relax in process which creates efficiency...if pushed to red line though...we suddenly see a very clear difference in 20 year olds and 40 plus year olds. I have no idea how hard you ever pushed yourself with resistance training though, I assure you there is a difference there with the same issue. Keeping fit and lifting has helped give you the appearance of little changing and the fact you probably do not get into any "red line" situations any more at an advanced age (which there is not much reason to unless you are going to start taking ring fights with 22 year olds).
Don't get me wrong, I don't feel the same as I did at 22 or even 28. I was much bigger (in terms of muscle mass) then and way, way more athletic. But what I mean is I can feel now that I have to be more mindful of things like muscle tears (until recently I never had that feeling lifting, now I can feel it). I have to spend a bit more time warming up, timing my recovery, etc.
For lifting I was never a 'make gains' guy. I was all in favor of growing, but for me everything was geared towards fighting. I ran with periodic sprints for example, to help with the kinds of bursts of energy and cardio you need for fighting. For lifting, I favored dumbbells over barbells. Never touched a bench press. I did dumbbell flys on a bench at about 4 or five elevations, and got up to 60 pound dumb bells----which for me was sufficient for what I was trying to do. Now I have a whole different way of looking at things. I live in a small apartment, space is an issue, the floors are old. And I am older. So my routine with weights now is 40 pound dumbbells for everything. And I just increase reps or change the routines as needed so I don't plateau. I do cheat and use thirty pound weights for certain shoulder exercises (but that is to avoid a couple of problem areas). but by and large, I get up in the morning and start my routine for that day lifting 40 pound dumbbells (which to me don't feel too big, but also don't feel too small). And I also like that they feel somewhat safe. When I was using 60 pound dumbbells, it was pretty clear it would be more catastrophic if something gave while I was doing flys or something. Forty pounds are still potential dangerous like any weight but I feel would have better control of them in an injury situation and they would make less of a problem for the old floors if they were to drop).
My old routine in terms of supplements and meals for training used to be eat a big meal then lift. Then run. Then drink a protein shake (and have periodic 30-40 gram protein shake for meals throughout the day). Now I eat before I train still, but I don't do the protein shake any more (if I feel like it, I may go back to it, but it is harder for me to burn the calories and I just don't need the muscle mass I did before). I will say the protein drinks and the timed meals, definitely made me bigger. There is no question I was, even just a few months ago, walking around with a lot more muscle mass doing that. But I feel a lot healthier right now not doing that, so I have changed the diet
Lifting geared towards fighting mean strength training. There is no sports specific training with weights. Its do the movement patterns we are the strongest in and that will develop strength in the most ranges of motion, and strength can be turned to power. If you like what you do by all means do it. If you are looking to enhance sports performance it should be barbell based in the basics (squat, deadlift, press, bench press, power cleans) with chin ups. Now I do not bench press as I do not care to risk anything after repairing a pec tear (which was from choking a dude and not lifting) and I do think it is not great as an athletic movement (press is MUCH more valuable) and I do think dumbbell bench presses or inclines can replace those or even can be replaced with Dips.
I would look into it and give it a try (nothing nuts 2-3 days a week) with a barbell built around the squat and you might be surprised at the difference. This is not so much a "gains" routine in the sense of getting bigger, but you will get stronger and it will be in an athletic performance manner. Even if you have had a run with the barbell before and convinced yourself dumbbells are safer or more fight related (they are not) just giving it a run for a while can not hurt and if it doesnt work....can always not do it any more.
Nutrition wise I think age becomes a factor. I dont smash calories down and getting 200g protein a day is a big frigging chore while controlling calories. I have done the uncomfortable eating in the past to make progress and it sucked.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 01:59:25 PM
Lifting geared towards fighting mean strength training. There is no sports specific training with weights. Its do the movement patterns we are the strongest in and that will develop strength in the most ranges of motion, and strength can be turned to power. If you like what you do by all means do it. If you are looking to enhance sports performance it should be barbell based in the basics (squat, deadlift, press, bench press, power cleans) with chin ups. Now I do not bench press as I do not care to risk anything after repairing a pec tear (which was from choking a dude and not lifting) and I do think it is not great as an athletic movement (press is MUCH more valuable) and I do think dumbbell bench presses or inclines can replace those or even can be replaced with Dips.
I would look into it and give it a try (nothing nuts 2-3 days a week) with a barbell built around the squat and you might be surprised at the difference. This is not so much a "gains" routine in the sense of getting bigger, but you will get stronger and it will be in an athletic performance manner. Even if you have had a run with the barbell before and convinced yourself dumbbells are safer or more fight related (they are not) just giving it a run for a while can not hurt and if it doesnt work....can always not do it any more.
Nutrition wise I think age becomes a factor. I dont smash calories down and getting 200g protein a day is a big frigging chore while controlling calories. I have done the uncomfortable eating in the past to make progress and it sucked.
I don't it has been a while since I was in a health science course. But in most combat sport and martial arts gyms I have been in, training weights with explosive motions has been part of how we did things (and doing things like tying elastic bands to your waist or legs for kicking with resistance). Also running with periodic sprints like I mentioned. If I am at a gym, I do what they say to do though. But I have generally in my own time avoided barbells and deadlifts (and most especially the barbell chest press)---anything where I have seen people get injured more often with my own eyes, I tend to be more mindful about). With deadlifting I don't know many people who had catastrophic injury but know a lot who had either a lot of wear and tear from it, or pulled something. I have been using dumbbells for over 25 years and not a single muscle injury or lifting mishap (I had one issue in my shoulder and one in my wrist that were exacerbated by lifting but the lifting wasn't the cause). The weight routines I use are either things I learned at places like Muay Thai gyms (where weights are a regular part of training and all geared for the muscles you use in that sport) or supplementary things I have picked up for my own reasons.
In terms of chest presses, I once witnessed a really awful pec tear when someone dropped a barbel on their chest (they had a spotter but I guess he wasn't paying close enough attention to react right away---in fact he had two spotters).
I also do a lot of calisthenic and cardio exercises you pick up training at places over the years. I find mixing that stuff in works well. At this point in my life, I am not looking to change my weight routine. The only area I am expanding on is cardio because of the smaller apartment I have more limited options in doors and need a wider variety of tools that won't upset the lady downstairs.
In terms of strength I already hit like a truck so I am not terribly worried about power or strength (usually the most common remark from trainers is my power). That has never been a problem for me. Power is partly your mass and your strength but also knowing how to put your body into a strike. And other things too (like how big your hands are, how thick your bones are, etc). For my size, I hit very hard. That said, probably not going to do so well against someone who got a massive size advantage though (as my experience with the kick boxer demonstrates). Part of learning how to fight is also learning how to size up who can hurt you and who can't, who you can hurt, and who you can't. I am much more focused on gaining fluidity and just improving things like my footwork. But again, at my age, I won't be competing or sparring any time soon so it is mainly about having a routine that keeps me healthy and is something I can stick to
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 01:59:25 PM
Even if you have had a run with the barbell before and convinced yourself dumbbells are safer or more fight related (they are not) just giving it a run for a while can not hurt and if it doesnt work....can always not do it any more.
It is personal choice. If people want to use barbells more power to them. I don't like the idea of something that intersects my chest or the back of my neck while bearing a lot of weight (and I have just seen too many accidents when people lose their grip---even if the thing isn't over their chest or something vital). That said, I think most barbell exercises are quite safe, if you are doing curls for example. And obviously there are safety devices and procedures for these things. But I find I have much better control of dumbbells, they have always been what I have encountered in fight sports and having weight in each hand, seems to emulate what your hands do when you are fighting much better than having a bar. I know guys who trained with barbells and benefited from them. And I have done routines with them and used barbells with them. I am just not a barbell guy (in part for safety considerations but also because I like dumbbells much better). It isn't like I haven't used barbells. I just don't like them, don't find them particularly safe. And I do get, dumbbells are dangerous too (I do overhead tricep extensions all the time and those can crack your skull open if you drop a 40 pound weight on your head). You can also easily injure a joint doing that.
The vast majority of people in combat sports and martial arts gyms are doing the simplest and often the most faddish things and the only really explosive movements are the snatch variations thereof and Cleans and variations there of. They are are not simple to perform and there is a training time just to get good at those movements. Strength does a whole lot for injury prevention as well as power (I had great power for my size as well even when I did not lift for a long time, but I was very strong when I started martial arts training and explosive (could dunk a volley ball flat footed at 5'10" and 200 pounds) and probably for us old people the more valuable application (injury prevention). Most exercises in combat sports places IME demonstrate power instead of build it. Some things like sprints and medicine ball tosses I am not as certain about, but things like the medicine ball can be hard to assess in an objective way. More weight lifted is objective and progress is super easy to measure. Health science is largely incompetent regarding sports performance and weight training as most studies are not over the long term to determine effectiveness well. Also most people running a Martial arts academy (one more combat based, kickboxing, boxing, MMA, BJJ) also understand recovery resources are going to be taxed to a degree by developing absolute strength and power (these are from making you actually stronger, not applying what strength you have to a plane of motion to express power) where development of technique is a MUCH faster development of power. Most people who come to us who are already really strong do not need us to make them do power development exercises, they just need to learn how to punch and kick. People who are weak will increase their strength a lot from bands, push ups and chin ups because they are novice level resistance candidates, this combined with learning to make power striking is enough for them while inside a combat sports space. I think for life or the avid competitor there needs to be further development of strength and what goes on during a training session for kickboxing or boxing is not going to develop strength past a baseline point. I say for life because there is a chance we could get a chance to do the man dance out on the asphalt, and there size and strength can certainly be a life saving factor whether from throwing a guy over a car or more easily surviving getting hit in the head by a 2x4 you didnt see coming. My focus I guess as I am older now and no longer training guys for the cage is different. No weight classes on the asphalt.
Deadlifts are not dangerous in any way done correctly, people who do them incorrectly do pay a price. Bench press...given how many pec tears have happened on it as well as how it wears on the AC joint and the rotator cuff I can not make the same claim about. I can say one reason I think people get hurt more on the bench though is it is hands down the most popular exercise in gyms and the one where people's egos are on display at all times.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 10, 2023, 02:39:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 01:59:25 PM
Even if you have had a run with the barbell before and convinced yourself dumbbells are safer or more fight related (they are not) just giving it a run for a while can not hurt and if it doesnt work....can always not do it any more.
It is personal choice. If people want to use barbells more power to them. I don't like the idea of something that intersects my chest or the back of my neck while bearing a lot of weight (and I have just seen too many accidents when people lose their grip---even if the thing isn't over their chest or something vital). That said, I think most barbell exercises are quite safe, if you are doing curls for example. And obviously there are safety devices and procedures for these things. But I find I have much better control of dumbbells, they have always been what I have encountered in fight sports and having weight in each hand, seems to emulate what your hands do when you are fighting much better than having a bar. I know guys who trained with barbells and benefited from them. And I have done routines with them and used barbells with them. I am just not a barbell guy (in part for safety considerations but also because I like dumbbells much better). It isn't like I haven't used barbells. I just don't like them, don't find them particularly safe. And I do get, dumbbells are dangerous too (I do overhead tricep extensions all the time and those can crack your skull open if you drop a 40 pound weight on your head). You can also easily injure a joint doing that.
I have never, in almost 40 years of being around people lifting iron seen a person lose a grip on a bar other than suicide grip on a bench press (which is asking for it). I have also never seen a person injured squatting or deadlifting....but I had a very good strength coach starting out and back even in globo gyms the only people squatting and deadlifting knew what the hell they were doing. I have seen more idiots getting pinned in the racks the past year than I have my entire life up to now, but these dudes have no idea as to bar placement, loading, programming, technique, etc. The bar is not unsafe. People are. As for what hands to ....well this is the sport specificity myth. Hands being bar or dumbbell has almost nothing to do with a fight scenario as the hands are simply transfer centers for power from the ground up to the fist with rotation, the lifting of weights for the upper body isnt so much the make the punch harder from generation of force (thats all hip rotation and legs as you know), its more from stable after contact you might get a little more pop in there. Having double the squat or deadlift strength however...will make a drastic difference in power from the same person (assuming good technique).
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 02:45:17 PM
The vast majority of people in combat sports and martial arts gyms are doing the simplest and often the most faddish things and the only really explosive movements are the snatch variations thereof and Cleans and variations there of. They are are not simple to perform and there is a training time just to get good at those movements. Strength does a whole lot for injury prevention as well as power (I had great power for my size as well even when I did not lift for a long time, but I was very strong when I started martial arts training and explosive (could dunk a volley ball flat footed at 5'10" and 200 pounds) and probably for us old people the more valuable application (injury prevention). Most exercises in combat sports places IME demonstrate power instead of build it. Some things like sprints and medicine ball tosses I am not as certain about, but things like the medicine ball can be hard to assess in an objective way. More weight lifted is objective and progress is super easy to measure. Health science is largely incompetent regarding sports performance and weight training as most studies are not over the long term to determine effectiveness well. Also most people running a Martial arts academy (one more combat based, kickboxing, boxing, MMA, BJJ) also understand recovery resources are going to be taxed to a degree by developing absolute strength and power (these are from making you actually stronger, not applying what strength you have to a plane of motion to express power) where development of technique is a MUCH faster development of power. Most people who come to us who are already really strong do not need us to make them do power development exercises, they just need to learn how to punch and kick. People who are weak will increase their strength a lot from bands, push ups and chin ups because they are novice level resistance candidates, this combined with learning to make power striking is enough for them while inside a combat sports space. I think for life or the avid competitor there needs to be further development of strength and what goes on during a training session for kickboxing or boxing is not going to develop strength past a baseline point. I say for life because there is a chance we could get a chance to do the man dance out on the asphalt, and there size and strength can certainly be a life saving factor whether from throwing a guy over a car or more easily surviving getting hit in the head by a 2x4 you didnt see coming. My focus I guess as I am older now and no longer training guys for the cage is different. No weight classes on the asphalt.
Deadlifts are not dangerous in any way done correctly, people who do them incorrectly do pay a price. Bench press...given how many pec tears have happened on it as well as how it wears on the AC joint and the rotator cuff I can not make the same claim about. I can say one reason I think people get hurt more on the bench though is it is hands down the most popular exercise in gyms and the one where people's egos are on display at all times.
I don't train for fighting in the streets. I just like the sparring and enjoy combat sports. Not big into the self defense aspect of martial arts.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 10, 2023, 02:55:59 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 02:45:17 PM
The vast majority of people in combat sports and martial arts gyms are doing the simplest and often the most faddish things and the only really explosive movements are the snatch variations thereof and Cleans and variations there of. They are are not simple to perform and there is a training time just to get good at those movements. Strength does a whole lot for injury prevention as well as power (I had great power for my size as well even when I did not lift for a long time, but I was very strong when I started martial arts training and explosive (could dunk a volley ball flat footed at 5'10" and 200 pounds) and probably for us old people the more valuable application (injury prevention). Most exercises in combat sports places IME demonstrate power instead of build it. Some things like sprints and medicine ball tosses I am not as certain about, but things like the medicine ball can be hard to assess in an objective way. More weight lifted is objective and progress is super easy to measure. Health science is largely incompetent regarding sports performance and weight training as most studies are not over the long term to determine effectiveness well. Also most people running a Martial arts academy (one more combat based, kickboxing, boxing, MMA, BJJ) also understand recovery resources are going to be taxed to a degree by developing absolute strength and power (these are from making you actually stronger, not applying what strength you have to a plane of motion to express power) where development of technique is a MUCH faster development of power. Most people who come to us who are already really strong do not need us to make them do power development exercises, they just need to learn how to punch and kick. People who are weak will increase their strength a lot from bands, push ups and chin ups because they are novice level resistance candidates, this combined with learning to make power striking is enough for them while inside a combat sports space. I think for life or the avid competitor there needs to be further development of strength and what goes on during a training session for kickboxing or boxing is not going to develop strength past a baseline point. I say for life because there is a chance we could get a chance to do the man dance out on the asphalt, and there size and strength can certainly be a life saving factor whether from throwing a guy over a car or more easily surviving getting hit in the head by a 2x4 you didnt see coming. My focus I guess as I am older now and no longer training guys for the cage is different. No weight classes on the asphalt.
Deadlifts are not dangerous in any way done correctly, people who do them incorrectly do pay a price. Bench press...given how many pec tears have happened on it as well as how it wears on the AC joint and the rotator cuff I can not make the same claim about. I can say one reason I think people get hurt more on the bench though is it is hands down the most popular exercise in gyms and the one where people's egos are on display at all times.
I don't train for fighting in the streets. I just like the sparring and enjoy combat sports. Not big into the self defense aspect of martial arts.
I still dont technically, largely because the stuff I have always done and taught carries over for the most part directly to the street. I always tell people you can think poking my eyes or biting me will help you when I have you mounted...but mostly what it will do is remind me to poke your eyes out before I beat you to death from the mount. But being stronger is most applicable to the street where I can not control the parameters of everything that happens. I think people who train full time for the street are doing a whole lot of work for something that has a miniscule chance of happening unless they are looking for it. Well I guess unless they are in the wrong place when the next "protest" pops off. But something stupid happening in the street is usually not something you expect, like getting in a car crash. I dont drive my car to wreck it, but I still keep the insurance paid up.
All that aside, dumbbells are not safer, in your case as per your post, you are using very submaximal loads. If that was a barbell, it would be loaded *very* lightly to mirror the load there would be absolutely zero risk at that load and it just being on a bar does not increase that risk. If you load a barbell to an actual maximal load...well yes it can get dangerous, but so would lifting dumbbells at a maximal load and it would be just as dangerous. You like what you are doing and its getting you what you want. Cant ask for more. But....if you ever get an itch start low, slow and smart and you might be surprised. I have been on both sides of this discussion during my lifetime and being a minimalist in my advancing age I came to the opinion I have through long trial, error, and success with a similar combat sports experience (other than I likely have more time in the hole from both being older and being way deep for a very long time running academies as a profession) so take that for what its worth.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 03:01:19 PM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 10, 2023, 02:55:59 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 02:45:17 PM
The vast majority of people in combat sports and martial arts gyms are doing the simplest and often the most faddish things and the only really explosive movements are the snatch variations thereof and Cleans and variations there of. They are are not simple to perform and there is a training time just to get good at those movements. Strength does a whole lot for injury prevention as well as power (I had great power for my size as well even when I did not lift for a long time, but I was very strong when I started martial arts training and explosive (could dunk a volley ball flat footed at 5'10" and 200 pounds) and probably for us old people the more valuable application (injury prevention). Most exercises in combat sports places IME demonstrate power instead of build it. Some things like sprints and medicine ball tosses I am not as certain about, but things like the medicine ball can be hard to assess in an objective way. More weight lifted is objective and progress is super easy to measure. Health science is largely incompetent regarding sports performance and weight training as most studies are not over the long term to determine effectiveness well. Also most people running a Martial arts academy (one more combat based, kickboxing, boxing, MMA, BJJ) also understand recovery resources are going to be taxed to a degree by developing absolute strength and power (these are from making you actually stronger, not applying what strength you have to a plane of motion to express power) where development of technique is a MUCH faster development of power. Most people who come to us who are already really strong do not need us to make them do power development exercises, they just need to learn how to punch and kick. People who are weak will increase their strength a lot from bands, push ups and chin ups because they are novice level resistance candidates, this combined with learning to make power striking is enough for them while inside a combat sports space. I think for life or the avid competitor there needs to be further development of strength and what goes on during a training session for kickboxing or boxing is not going to develop strength past a baseline point. I say for life because there is a chance we could get a chance to do the man dance out on the asphalt, and there size and strength can certainly be a life saving factor whether from throwing a guy over a car or more easily surviving getting hit in the head by a 2x4 you didnt see coming. My focus I guess as I am older now and no longer training guys for the cage is different. No weight classes on the asphalt.
Deadlifts are not dangerous in any way done correctly, people who do them incorrectly do pay a price. Bench press...given how many pec tears have happened on it as well as how it wears on the AC joint and the rotator cuff I can not make the same claim about. I can say one reason I think people get hurt more on the bench though is it is hands down the most popular exercise in gyms and the one where people's egos are on display at all times.
I don't train for fighting in the streets. I just like the sparring and enjoy combat sports. Not big into the self defense aspect of martial arts.
I still dont technically, largely because the stuff I have always done and taught carries over for the most part directly to the street. I always tell people you can think poking my eyes or biting me will help you when I have you mounted...but mostly what it will do is remind me to poke your eyes out before I beat you to death from the mount. But being stronger is most applicable to the street where I can not control the parameters of everything that happens. I think people who train full time for the street are doing a whole lot of work for something that has a miniscule chance of happening unless they are looking for it. Well I guess unless they are in the wrong place when the next "protest" pops off. But something stupid happening in the street is usually not something you expect, like getting in a car crash. I dont drive my car to wreck it, but I still keep the insurance paid up.
I have friends who do more self defense oriented training and it is just a whole other animal in my view. I am quite happy with my strength level (one reason I stopped with the protein drinks was I actually interested in decreasing strength and mass a bit rather than raising it). If I were to return to a boxing gym or something, I would probably start back on the protein diet. Right now though my primary goal is health (and I keep training like I did when I was in combat sports because I enjoy that and it keeps me going).
We just moved out of a very high crime area that we had been living in for bout 13 years or so. While I was there, my fitness goals were different because of the environment (it felt like having more mass mattered, if only so people in the area didn't see you as an easy target). At the moment, a leaner, healthier physique is my goal
Lots of the gang training self defense sorts are goofballs and often too influenced by Krav Maga (or Trash kickboxing in common law marriage with Trash grappling) and people selling them the "reality" of street fights and the mortal danger we all walk side by side with every day out there in the suburbs. I did have the opportunity to learn a bit about fighting with a knife years ago (now you want to talk about some people I always expect to show up on a most wanted list....) but I think something like that is a dab will do you until we hit mad max level. I think most of the Self defense training crowd have been in few real fights if any. They remind me of reading how Kano started Judo in Japan and how all the other guys were doing training too deadly to be fully practiced. I could be wrong though and they may have unlocked some secrets I will never have muscle memory of. I just think its really easy for me to stick that teep in your balls instead of your solar plexus and just as easy to put my thumb in your eye in a clinch instead of pulling your head right into a knee first. Its not hard to remember, even under duress.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 04:27:34 PM
Lots of the gang training self defense sorts are goofballs and often too influenced by Krav Maga (or Trash kickboxing in common law marriage with Trash grappling) and people selling them the "reality" of street fights and the mortal danger we all walk side by side with every day out there in the suburbs. I did have the opportunity to learn a bit about fighting with a knife years ago (now you want to talk about some people I always expect to show up on a most wanted list....) but I think something like that is a dab will do you until we hit mad max level. I think most of the Self defense training crowd have been in few real fights if any. They remind me of reading how Kano started Judo in Japan and how all the other guys were doing training too deadly to be fully practiced. I could be wrong though and they may have unlocked some secrets I will never have muscle memory of. I just think its really easy for me to stick that teep in your balls instead of your solar plexus and just as easy to put my thumb in your eye in a clinch instead of pulling your head right into a knee first. Its not hard to remember, even under duress.
I don't put much stock in it myself. Judo is a style I respect. I am not much of a grappler, mostly been involved in striking styles. But I did BJJ for years and picked up almost nothing (not knocking BBJ it is obviously effective, I just don't have the mind or enthusiasm for that style of martial art). But Judo, even though I only did about six months or so between kickboxing schools, taught me things I was able to make use of for years and it just clicked more (i think having elements like throwing in there appealed more to me as a striker too). But for me, I don't have any illusions about what this training means on the streets. I don't have anything to prove there
I have never heard of anyone actually training BJJ for years and picking up nothing. Sometimes that is a person measuring themselves against the other folks they train with though, and forgetting they can easily sweep and choke a newb if that is how the match ups go that evening. Not sure what illusions you would have, actually training teaches most people fights are not worth bothering with, because once its a legit full go there are odds you get scraped up even if you smash the other person(s).
But training for years under a qualified instructor and learning nothing is a new one for me. I guess the people who were not catching on just sort of quit early on. Never had one stick around for a couple years and make no progress.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 04:48:08 PM
I have never heard of anyone actually training BJJ for years and picking up nothing. Sometimes that is a person measuring themselves against the other folks they train with though, and forgetting they can easily sweep and choke a newb if that is how the match ups go that evening. Not sure what illusions you would have, actually training teaches most people fights are not worth bothering with, because once its a legit full go there are odds you get scraped up even if you smash the other person(s).
But training for years under a qualified instructor and learning nothing is a new one for me. I guess the people who were not catching on just sort of quit early on. Never had one stick around for a couple years and make no progress.
It definitely happens. I have seen it happen in striking gyms too (some people just don't get better something). That said it isn't like I made zero progress with it (I just made very incremental progress and forgot most of what I learned). And it was over time, not four solid years of training or something (more like 1.5 here, .5 there, .75 there, etc). And the instructors at the 1.5 years place were very qualified. I just had such little interest in it, I didn't enthusiastically learn the way I do with something like boxing or muay thai. There were people there who were into it and got better. I got okay at rolling but don't remember a lick of it at this point (whereas if I go back to boxing or something, there may be a short period of ring rust but it all comes back). If you have no interest in something, you aren't going to pick it up most likely. I should say also, in the case of the place I went to the longest it was a gym where they were primarily a BJJ gym but I was there for the Muay Thai classes (because an instructor from my old muay thai gym was the muay thai coach there). So it was a combination of lack of interest, honestly not grocking BJJ that well (for me it always felt like doing algebra), and not attending as many classes as I would if I were fully interested. I don't recall how frequently I went but probably was just taking BJJ 1-2 times a week. If you really pushed me I can probably remember rear-naked joke and a handful of escapes. But I will also say I found BJJ especially dull. Like I absolutely hated it (and again it is an effective style but I just had no fun doing it). Mostly I was there for Muay Thai and to be a sparring partner and spare body when their fighters were getting ready for MMA matches. But I had a very different experience when I went to a Judo school. And honestly the instruction felt the same in terms of quality and intensity. I just absorbed it much better. The big difference isn't so much in making progress versus not, but that I found I was able to incorporate judo, but not very much BJJ when I trained in things like MMA or Sanshou for instance (with the later there are probably more stylistic reasons for the Judo being applicable, but the former, I just don't have BJJ chops, and it would feel like pulling teeth for me to develop them).
Like I said, I don't have any illusions. I think what can happen though, especially with strikers, is they tend to get very scrappy because even though hard sparring and competition can get you banged up, it is relatively safe compared to a street fight (where weapons might be involved or people might come back with their friends after the fight is over). And sometimes scrappy people get cocky. I know plenty of guys who are like that.
Also my keyboard keeps screwing up here so I apologize if any of this is not clear
Well I have to tip my hat for sticking with something you seem to have not even liked for so long. I have a feeling you made more progress than you realize here and now. I have seen types that do not pick up grappling or striking but rarely a person (as in never) who sticks with the one they never make progress on for years, or in your case probably made progress but just didnt like it.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 05:30:55 PM
Well I have to tip my hat for sticking with something you seem to have not even liked for so long. I have a feeling you made more progress than you realize here and now. I have seen types that do not pick up grappling or striking but rarely a person (as in never) who sticks with the one they never make progress on for years, or in your case probably made progress but just didnt like it.
It was more I liked the gym and I liked the people there. There may be intuitive things I picked up that I don't think about (Like perhaps I could escape a particular hold without realizing it) but by and large I still don't grasp BJJ. If I watch an MMA match for example, i don't understand the BJJ the way I understand the stand up game.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 05:30:55 PM
I have a feeling you made more progress than you realize here and now.
the way I would put it is it is like a class or coursework you struggle to understand. You can attend math courses for ages, but if you aren't suited to algebra, even if you do make some amount of progress, you aren't going to come out the other side of that saying you know learned algebra. Or to use an example I am personally more familiar with. I studied music and had to learn some music theory. This was part of learning guitar. Things like scales, I understood. But modes and the circle of 5ths, just never clicked (other aspects of music theory did, at one point I could read and write notation pretty well---though I lost a lot of that). I have spoken with many other guitar players who never grasped modes or the circle of 5ths. Now if you ask a music teacher, they will tell you these are fundamental and everyone can learn them, yet there are countless musicians out there who took the classes, often for years, and never managed to grasp those elements (they may have developed an intuitive understanding of these things, so that when they play a person might think they know how they work, but they have just developed an ear for things). And modes and circle of 5ths are not particularly advanced. They are pretty rudimentary elements of music theory.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 11:55:06 AMNow this of course assumes the right kind of bigger.
Yes. And basically every big bloke is convinced he's "all muscle, bro," just like the big chicks are all "healthy at every size!" Fortunately these things are testable. Is the guy 250lbs of blubber, or muscle? Some chinups and a run will tell us something about that.
Quote from: oggsmashI am sure that have been dudes with 6 packs for thousands of years, the greeks seemed to idolize it so I do not buy its genes that created the problem.
Yes. The Greeks
idolised them. This suggests it was not common. You can't look at the guys playing at the Superbowl and from that conclude that the 30 million people watching it on TV are all 6'4" 250lb jacked. Our nature is expressed by what we see most commonly, not by what we idolise.
Quote from: oggsmashThese things like mandating exercise for kids in school alone would make a generational difference....yet it doesnt get done....why is that?
It's because of the change of the education system generally. Once, education to a certain level was considered to be a base, and only a select few would go further. Here in Australia there was a 14yo who left school in the early 1960s and immediately went to work as a pay clerk for a city gas company. 60 years later you'd need to be 24 with a degree in accounting to do that. That guy later went on to become Prime Minister, by the way - Paul Keating.
In 1970 about 20-25% of kids finished high school. Now it's 85%. Are we four times smarter? Well, the adult population's literacy gets measured from time to time, and 44% of the population have literacy equivalent to year 10 or lower - so, 56% high school or higher. That is, only 56 of the 85 kids graduating high school actually have high school graduate level of literacy. This is of course better than the (at most) 25 we had in 1970. But it suggests that over this time our emphasis has gone from "you reached level X, this is good enough, now go work," to "stay in school, no matter what!"
With a desperation to have 56 rather than 25 out of 85 kids achieve that level of literacy (and corresponding numeracy), and have the other 19 of 85 be good enough that we can plausibly graduate them without anyone noticing they're actually not good enough, we naturally have to put all our focus on the purely academic book stuff. This doesn't leave any room for physical education, for any social stuff other than whatever is the dominant cultural narrative of the time (dissent takes longer to explain than assent), for home skills like cooking and cleaning, and so on. It's just book stuff.
And this matches the changes in Western economies over that time. When people are hoeing beans and chopping down trees and assembling cars by hand in factories, it's very obvious to all that they need to be physically capable. But if Third World countries are doing that stuff for us and we're just sitting in offices, we can pretend to ourselves all we need are books and it's alright to be invalids. Of course, it's not because of the health effects and ensuing healthcare costs, but since nobody tests your deadlift or 5km run time to become a data entry guy, you can kid yourself it doesn't matter - until you're 35, too fat to see your dick and have constant back and shoulder pain from being hunched at the desk all day.
Quote from: BedrockbrendanIt seems to there was a big push for T replacement a few years ago similar to the push for pain killers.
Yes. I have absolutely no problem with anabolic steroids prescribed as a medicine by someone whose primary concern is your health. I think it's tragic they're associated with dumb shit like sports performance, because it means people who could benefit miss out. One of the earliest uses was for burns victims - after lying in bed for months recovering, steroids could help them maintain muscle mass, and regrow it later. Imagine what it could do for chemotherapy patients. And we know that human growth hormone is one of the few things that helps regrow torn ligaments. And how about the frail elderly?
The guys taking them just to get jacked or because they're too lazy and disorganised to address their dietary and exercise issues, by making legislators and the media neurotic about it all, are ruining it for genuine medicinal uses. And I think that's tragic.
Quote from: BedrockbrendanI may be too far in the opposite direction but I don't like how medications make me feel so I avoid them.
I'm with you. I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with having medication if you need it. But - if you need it. If you can get the same or similar results without medication, you should do that. And that's because every medication has some side effects. And as the years go on and we age, we're likely to need more medications. And they interact and cause more side effects, and then you take medication to deal with the side effects, and before you know it you're in aged care with - I shit you not - 10-15 different medications daily. Polypharmacy, as it's known, is a nasty thing.
So if you can avoid a medication or take it for a while and then get off it, that's good.
Quote from: oggsmashif pushed to red line though...we suddenly see a very clear difference in 20 year olds and 40 plus year olds. I have no idea how hard you ever pushed yourself with resistance training though, I assure you there is a difference there with the same issue.
Fuck yes. The recovery difference is huge. If you look at lifting or running world records, the decline with age isn't as much as you might imagine. People in their 70s are doing like 2/3rds the numbers. What really changes is what people have to do to get there. Let's say the world record is 100, and for the master's lifter or runner it's 80. If you take a 20yo and a 50yo, we can look at the 20yo getting 50 of the 100, and the 50yo getting 40 of the 80. The 20yo can get there a lot more quickly and with less care to programming, diet and so on than the 50yo can.
Recovery isn't as good as you age, so you have to be smarter. At 20 you can just smash it in the gym and then fuck off and eat 4 quarter-pounders and all is good. At 50 if you try that then you're not making your next gym session.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 03:16:03 PMI have been on both sides of this discussion during my lifetime and being a minimalist in my advancing age I came to the opinion I have through long trial, error, and success
I don't think it makes a huge difference. I say that as a guy who - you know, but others might not - runs a double garage gym which has only barbells (https://www.instagram.com/athleticclubeast/) (except for the farmer's walk handles), and the rings we added just recently but haven't used systematically yet.
In my little space I prefer barbells for a couple of reasons, and none of them have to do with physiology, sports-specific or whatever. It's space and convenience. Dumbbells are going to be a fixed weight, which means you need a whole rack of them, and that takes up a lot of space. You can get adjustable dumbbells but they're fiddly to deal with - you're having to adjust four sides of a bar vs two sides of a bar, and rather than single big plates you have to put on a stack of smaller plates.
As well, it's easier to microload barbells for progression. Take someone who barbell overhead presses 60kg, they're not going to be able to dumbbell press 30kg, more like 20kg, tops. But the next dumbbell is 22.5kg. How many reps do they have to do with a 20 before they can handle a 22.5? They end up spending a lot of time pressing 20, for 5s, 6s, 7s and so on until they can squeeze out a set of 5s on 22.5, and then a long time stuck there. But with a barbell, not only can I go from 60 to 62.5 - equivalent to adding 0.5 or at most 1kg to a dumbbell - but I can get microplates and go to 60.5kg if I want - equivalent to adding 0.1-0.2kg to a dumbbell. Barbells just save us a lot of fuckery.
The other reason is co-ordination. It's just easier for people to co-ordinate two hands vs one. This is especially true with the typical gym-goer, who is
not going to be a natural athlete - if they were, they wouldn't be in our gym, they'd either be in a top sports team or retired from it. Ties in with what you guys are saying about spending years at BJJ or whatever and not getting better at it. The "everyone can get awesome if they work hard enough" is just Protestant Work Ethic propaganda. People do have an upper limit. It's commonly much higher than they think - but it is a limit.
Barbells are a very useful tool. But they aren't magic. And most of the problems people have had with them come from ego and lifestyle issues (too much too soon, poor diet and sleep etc), or from just doing the same thing all the time and an unbalanced programme (sorry benchers, you do have to do rows, chinups etc, you tried it without those things and now your shoulder is fucked).
When I started i trained kickboxing at a kickboxing place and my BJJ at a BJJ place and there were few dedicated MMA gyms in the country. For me BJJ was easy and came very naturally, but I couldnt explain anything to anyone i could actually do, I could just do it and did not know why. Boxing and kickboxing were different in that I picked up the mechanics of technique and power very fast but logically so I knew why and how I was doing things, footwork and distance management took a good deal more dedicated thought and work (sparring all the time with pros beating your ass will make you look for solutions) and once it caught I could understand it completely. But kickboxing was more cerebral for me from those aspects (distance management and footwork) while grappling was just something I did and pulled off stuff against good guys and had no idea how I did it when reflecting afterwards. As time went on I started to try to put a more cerebral approach to BJJ and grappling as people would ask me how I did this or that rolling and I honestly was unable to detail it out even though i was taught in detail how to do it. This training balance was nice though because i would feel burnt at one thing and concentrate for 2-3 weeks on one or the other from time to time and it kept me training for years. I think a few years before I started to teach people (around the 8 year point i learned to intellectualize in steps what i did or learned grappling) and it helped a lot later for learning something new. I guess how I started with kickboxing and boxing and being deeply fascinated with distance/footwork/counters/etc it made learning something new or verbalizing something I did all the time very easy. It was odd the thing I feel like I had to work on more (and this is sort of trie for most humans, hitting is not natural as humans are made ro grapple not to strike) it seemed more a science to me whereas BJJ is always touted as hyper technical. Any way enjoy training and one day you just might trip and fall and pick up a barbell.
I never said barbells are magic, I said to get maximum bang for the buck (i am a minamalist and if i can do more with less i prefer to) and when it comes to strength training they are better for the very reasons you laid out. It doesnt mean they are the best all things lifting, but strength development they most certainly are. I am also super clear on what right kind of bigger means (cornering over 100 MMA fights and training those fighters with weight classes to make) and not talking people in a "bulking phase". But bigger and stronger is going to be better all other things being equal in a fight, every single time.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 10, 2023, 07:50:33 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 03:16:03 PMI have been on both sides of this discussion during my lifetime and being a minimalist in my advancing age I came to the opinion I have through long trial, error, and success
I don't think it makes a huge difference. I say that as a guy who - you know, but others might not - runs a double garage gym which has only barbells (https://www.instagram.com/athleticclubeast/) (except for the farmer's walk handles), and the rings we added just recently but haven't used systematically yet.
In my little space I prefer barbells for a couple of reasons, and none of them have to do with physiology, sports-specific or whatever. It's space and convenience. Dumbbells are going to be a fixed weight, which means you need a whole rack of them, and that takes up a lot of space. You can get adjustable dumbbells but they're fiddly to deal with - you're having to adjust four sides of a bar vs two sides of a bar, and rather than single big plates you have to put on a stack of smaller plates.
As well, it's easier to microload barbells for progression. Take someone who barbell overhead presses 60kg, they're not going to be able to dumbbell press 30kg, more like 20kg, tops. But the next dumbbell is 22.5kg. How many reps do they have to do with a 20 before they can handle a 22.5? They end up spending a lot of time pressing 20, for 5s, 6s, 7s and so on until they can squeeze out a set of 5s on 22.5, and then a long time stuck there. But with a barbell, not only can I go from 60 to 62.5 - equivalent to adding 0.5 or at most 1kg to a dumbbell - but I can get microplates and go to 60.5kg if I want - equivalent to adding 0.1-0.2kg to a dumbbell. Barbells just save us a lot of fuckery.
The other reason is co-ordination. It's just easier for people to co-ordinate two hands vs one. This is especially true with the typical gym-goer, who is not going to be a natural athlete - if they were, they wouldn't be in our gym, they'd either be in a top sports team or retired from it. Ties in with what you guys are saying about spending years at BJJ or whatever and not getting better at it. The "everyone can get awesome if they work hard enough" is just Protestant Work Ethic propaganda. People do have an upper limit. It's commonly much higher than they think - but it is a limit.
Barbells are a very useful tool. But they aren't magic. And most of the problems people have had with them come from ego and lifestyle issues (too much too soon, poor diet and sleep etc), or from just doing the same thing all the time and an unbalanced programme (sorry benchers, you do have to do rows, chinups etc, you tried it without those things and now your shoulder is fucked).
Space consideration is definitely a factor. I used to have a barbell with adjustable weights on it. And that saves on space. But I like dumbbells and one of the best investments I ever made was a rack and dumbbell sets ranging from 10 to 65 pounds. That definitely takes up space. And when we moved I had to get rid of the rack (so now I just have a bunch of dumbbells scattered through the apartment. These days I only go up to the 40 pound weights, as 45+ just feels too heavy for my joints (when I was younger none of that concerned me). I also was often going to gyms too, so I had my weight set at home and I would have access to whatever the local gym had. When I lived at my old place I had a heavy bag in the yard too so after weights and before running, I would do rounds on it. However we moved to a new apartment and it isn't feasible to set up a heavy bag here.
Sort of a consolidated answer to a lot of stuff here, but...
There is no way to reach a certain level of strength without increasing bodyfat unless you are a mutant with supreme genetics, or are on drugs. It's impossible. Anyone who says otherwise is a moron, a liar, or both.
Quote from: Brad on October 11, 2023, 04:09:07 PM
Sort of a consolidated answer to a lot of stuff here, but...
There is no way to reach a certain level of strength without increasing bodyfat unless you are a mutant with supreme genetics, or are on drugs. It's impossible. Anyone who says otherwise is a moron, a liar, or both.
Strong men competitors are pretty heavy looking so I don't doubt this (and I have seen in my own training, when I have more fat, I can lift more). It is just hard to grow muscle and also stay lean. But i think the point people are debating is in fighting where it gets more thorny (especially in sports like MMA or Muay Thai with rules governing the fighting). Fighting an opponent with just a 50 pound or more weight advantage, in my experience, feels something like hitting a brick wall. And getting hit by a person that size also feels like getting hit by a brick wall (and in the case I have in mind, the person I was fighting, a good portion of that 50 pounds was fat). Obviously a guy who is 150 against a 400 pound guy is at a massive disadvantage and most likely going to lose unless he miraculously knocks out the 400 pound opponent). When you are operating inside weight categories though, you want to be the bigger guy usually but you don't want too much fat because that can weigh you down and affect mobility, athleticism, etc. At the heavy weight level the bigger guy does also usually win (though there there is a point of diminishing returns it seems after a certain threshold). I think what people are saying isn't that there isn't a link between fat and strength or size and strength, but that strength isn't the only goal in a sport like MMA (though they do usually also have a very solid weight training program on top of their 2 hours a day for standard training).
Also I would say my biggest priority for fitness these days health and in particular, heart health. So I want to be lean, but I have to be mindful of being too lean (if I get into the 130 or lower range, my body runs into problems; if I get into about the 160 or over range, it also runs into problems). So I try to stay inside that at around 150-155. Around here winters are usually the trickiest months for that
Quote from: Brad on October 11, 2023, 04:09:07 PM
Sort of a consolidated answer to a lot of stuff here, but...
There is no way to reach a certain level of strength without increasing bodyfat unless you are a mutant with supreme genetics, or are on drugs. It's impossible. Anyone who says otherwise is a moron, a liar, or both.
I agree with this...but I also think we might need to define the level of strength too. Where is the level you have to put on extra fat (in this case I mean raising your BF percentage, not keeping it static as you gain weight) do you think? Do you have numbers in mind or more an increase past a person's personal baseline?
Quote from: oggsmash on October 12, 2023, 11:54:27 AM
I agree with this...but I also think we might need to define the level of strength too. Where is the level you have to put on extra fat (in this case I mean raising your BF percentage, not keeping it static as you gain weight) do you think? Do you have numbers in mind or more an increase past a person's personal baseline?
With crap endomorph genetics like mine, you start gaining fat the instant you look at a barbell.
For me personally, increasing bodyfat from ~15%->20% resulted in a massive increase of strength. My heaviest was 235 when I did competitive powerlifting, and now I'm 195 because I've been running a ton. There's at least a 100 pound different in benching right there, even though the weight was mostly fat. I just had to eat more and more to gain strength, and in doing so bodyfat escalated. Even when I ate ridiculously clean I was maybe able to hit 12-13% and I felt tired all the time and couldn't put up the really big numbers. If I had cycled or something, probably could have hit sub-10% easily and gotten even stronger.
I don't think there's any sort of magic level for this. I will say that for combat sports, you do see a higher percentage of fat as you go up in weight class, and I am guessing it has something to do with the strength increases. You'll see super ripped bantamweight boxers who probably have just enough fat to maintain their health, and then heavyweights with some belly. And those heavyweights are ridiculously conditioned, so obviously bodyfat is not detrimental to sports once you hit a certain size/strength level. O-linemen, for instance, are fucking beasts and typically are "overweight". Sumo wrestlers come to mind as well. Yeah, they have more bodyfat than is probably necessary, but it adds some mass and makes their sport easier to engage in, and also provides constant fuel for the exponentially greater amount of muscle they're carrying around vs. someone like a defensive back.
I dunno, this is all anecdotal, but I do know the strongest guy I ever met had a bit of chub and he wrecked the weight room like it was full of toys. He used to embarrass the ripped dudes by warming up his squats with their maxes.
What sort of time frame did you gain that sort of weight/bf percentage increase? I know there is a nice boost to lifting numbers if you put the calories down and add some weight, I have just been careful about not putting too much on since any gut feels extremely uncomfortable if you get stacked in a ball, and I am curious as to what your experience was with weight gain relative to performance on the other side, and where did you think you got the most "bang" for weight gain versus strength (which exercise). I have always heard the Bench is where most people get the biggest relative increases (percentage) and that makes a great deal of sense as thickening your torso decreases ROM and gives you more meat wrapped in that cushion to push with. I have also read a bit more gut is useful for the squat when you are down in the hole and helps you blast up, no idea if it was the gut or the people saying this added some contractile tissue with that gut to blow up out of that squat.
As a question to any folks with experience...I have a rather unique tweak I do not think I have ever experienced. I was hitting the 5th rep of a deadlift a few weeks ago (two to be exact) and I was a bit tired (Heavy deadlift is same day as Heavy Squat) and the 5th rep was some effort. Now I screwed up big time as I completed it and shrugged the bar in defiant triumph ( despite knowing you should never shrug out a heavy deadlift) and completed the set. In beginning to pat myself on the back I knew I had tweaked something in my shoulder girdle.
This is a bit hard to explain as a discomfort, it feels like my clavicle where it connects to me right under the neck got hit and was sort of achy. Long story short anyone every have that sort of ache/pain in the collar bone? Just curious as it feels more and more like a soft tissue tweak versus muscular.
Oggsmash, the shoulderblade/scapula alone has seventeen different muscles attached to it. Then there's the clavicle and humerus, with the humerus articulating with the scapula by way of the glenoid fossa, and... it's complicated. Then there's a bursa, a labrum, ligaments, muscles that act like ligaments such as the rotator cuff muscles, and...
Just glance over this:- https://teachmeanatomy.info/upper-limb/joints/shoulder/
It's complicated. Head off to the doc or physio, get a scan.
This is a pain I have felt before, but I can not for the life of me remember what triggered it (pretty sure it was contact and impact, either football or grappling) as it was a long time ago. Its not so much the shoulder at all as the sternum/clavicle area and I do not think its muscular. I just can not remember tweaking that joint in a really long time. I am going to forgo squatting and see how it does. I did a heavy press yesterday with it hurting and was able to perform and today its considerably less irritated after ice...so I may resort to a doctor...but I always like to see if I can manage it. Squatting for sure puts some stress on the area, press I can feel it, but no real direct pain. Incline press I feel it but hard to tell if its causing performance issues. I think your response is the safest overall, I was just curious if anyone else ever felt this. I am pretty sure the last time I felt this I rested it and it was fine. I was just a little surprised an enthusiastic shrug with a deadlift would trigger it and curious if anyone else ever experienced this. i suspect age might be part of it.
I had a fucked up rotator cuff I finally rehabbed back to being moderately useful then got a 40% tear again on a max deadlift...I think anything that uses your arms can damage your shoulders in some way, because as Kyle says, there are just so many moving parts.
Thing is I am pretty sure I know what it is (subclavicular joint..apologies for the spelling) but I can not remember ever having it feel sore from lifting. I would be alot more worried if it was my shoulder itself. It just seems whatever is going on with that joint it really, really does not like stretching out and putting a bar on my back. I have banged it up at some point in my past I think both grappling and playing football, but it seemed odd I would get what seems to be a strain from deadlifting...I guess when they say make sure you dont shrug and just stand up they mean it.
The most common shoulder issue these days is supraspinatus impingement. You've got four "rotator cuff" muscles coming off your scapula. They sit in a "cuff" around the top of your humerus and make it rotate around, thus their name. But they're not evenly-spaced, it's more like a U-shape.
The supraspinatus is so-called because runs along the top of the spine of the scapula; it then runs forward under the join between the clavicle and scapula, and on down to the humerus. Where the clavicle and scapula join is a bony protruberance called the acromion, specifically the acromial process. The supraspinatus tendon runs under this. If you hunch over like someone at a keyboard and bring your hands together, you then make that subacromial space smaller, and it's likely to be impinged and get worn. That's what it usually means when someone says they have a "shoulder impingement." It's almost always the supraspinatus or its tendon getting worn out.
It can get worn out from being a thrower or swimmer or someone doing snatches etc, that bang! a zillion times in a row wears it out. But most commonly it's from a desk job. It gets inflamed, hurts, you rest, it gets better. And of course it can get outright torn, either a partial tear or a full tear. In either case it'll hurt for some weeks and then stop. About 1/4 full tears actually heal themselves, too, the little bits of muscle reach out like horror movie tendrils and join, weird shit.
But there are also a couple of bursae in there, little pads between the tendon and bone, and those can get worn out. And within the joint there are labrum, and that can get torn, too.
When you're dealing with a muscle like the hamstrings it's fairly easy to tell whether it's muscular or some joint stuff - poke the muscle, if it hurts it's the muscle, if poking doesn't hurt but movement does, it's the joint. But you can't palpate the supraspinatus, bursae and so on since they're under bones, or the relevant parts are, anyway.
But then, passing right alongside the supraspinatus is the bicep tendon attaching to the scapula. And as I said, a bunch of other stuff. So who the fuck knows, this is what we have physiotherapists and ultrasounds for. There is honestly no reason to avoid going and finding out except the usual male stubborn stupidity.
I had an inflammation from a previous tear a while back. I spent a lot of time with the safety squat bar. It's like being the kid in school with the retainer around his head, but at least you're squatting.
I can see and feel a massive difference in discomfort just with distance from stretching out that clavicle from squatting. I think it is no mystery as to what I have dinged up...the question is how badly. Having had numerous injuries and bang ups in the past...this one is pretty minor but pretty unique in the way it gets triggered. You can say just go to the doctor...but Here its a huge pain in the ass to get to the guy (specialist) who can answer my questions, and by the time I get to him...I may very well be already better. If it was serious I would go to the doctor. Right now it looks like avoiding a squat for two weeks as well as a deadlift is my protocol and we will see how it goes.
I do not think its a shoulder or rotator cuff issue at all from localized pain and functionality. I am uncertain, but I think an actual shoulder problem would have prevented the heavy press of 220x5 and at the very least would have had some consequences. A little ice and no squat and its very obviously that joint at the sternum/collarbone which is where it always hurt. Again...just found it really odd I tweaked that without some level of dynamic contact and just being a goofball and shrugging that deadlift seems to have tweaked it. If it gets worse or persists I will take the medical route though.
I have had people press, and we later found out that they had a full thickness supraspinatus tear and didn't know it at the time. Pain is highly individual, strongly-connected to mental health, and the body is amazing at having one part take over from a defective part. I've trained a guy who had a 100% occluded left anterior descending artery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_anterior_descending_artery), he should not in fact have been alive, it's like blocking the fuel line in your car's engine and yet it keeps puttering along, how? - but his body used other blood vessels to do it, basically a natural version of bypass surgery. So just because you are physically able to use part X doesn't mean it's not actually fucked up inside.
If it's going to take time to get an appointment, and you're planning to wait, what you do is make the appointment now. If by the time of your appointment you are better, all good, you just cancel it and don't go - and someone else gets a last-minute appointment and is happy. If you're not better by then, then of course you go. Whereas if you don't make the appointment then later you'll have to wait still more.
Stop being so male. Book it in. I'm done with you.
Its not just that I am male, its being a man. I have been driving this rig for a while now and am pretty familiar when something is tweaked and when its broken. I am OK with you being done too as I can understand your frustration (and perhaps lack of understanding that getting to see someone is two appointments, approval through insurance, a co pay that escalates every year, etc) not having any experience with healthcare in the USA. It simply is not worth bothering unless I need to go...and two weeks is a better measure as to whether I need to go. If I am broken I will update you and let you know you made the right call. If I am not...I will update you when I hit that 225x5 press.
Was a strain of the clavicular joint at the sternum. Squat bar position was exacerbating the problem and not allowing it to get better. No squats for 2 weeks (with a bar, I do use the "Power squat" apparatus to do the base exercise). Deadlifts I have not done (I sort of hate them anyway) No clavicle pain or stiffness. Cleared it up. Standing Overhead Pressed 225 x 5 yesterday.
Hitting an upper body deload for a month or so. I will keep marching with the TM routine for the squat until body says its time to stop (I would like to hit 500x5 breaking parallel this year)...which might be soon now that I am back on a mat consistently. I feel pretty bullet proof on the mat...I just wish my timing was not all time terribad from the long break from live sparring. We will see where the balance of strength training and rolling fall down the line. For now probably no more than 2 days a week rolling and I will attempt to keep the 3 days lifting (if all around performance is hurt...I can always bite the bullet and go to a one day a week maintenance schedule and that may happen when I back to dancing around and hitting things (back to boxing and kickboxing a bit) in addition to these) with progress as long as I can. I feel for the most part I am strong enough to avoid injury and to still allow some advantage physically.
I will likely have the only motivation to move forward strength training wise to set some numbers my kid might not hit before he is out of the house and off to college. Since he Squatted 275 below parallel, deadlifted 315, and bench pressed 155 the day he turned 13 I may be fighting a hopeless battle on that one.
I try to keep calories around 1,800 with a focus on protein/low carbs. Drink lots of water and unsweetened drinks like flavored water or diet soda (I'm a bit partial to diet soda and I know it's not good).
I run 30 minutes a day, 80 sit-ups, 80 crunches, and I try to do 20-30 push ups. It's nothing that'll shape me into a Greek statue, but it's helped me drop about 60lbs and lose some visceral fat. I'm the thinnest I've ever been since like the 7th grade.
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on January 26, 2024, 08:36:56 PM
I try to keep calories around 1,800 with a focus on protein/low carbs. Drink lots of water and unsweetened drinks like flavored water or diet soda (I'm a bit partial to diet soda and I know it's not good).
I run 30 minutes a day, 80 sit-ups, 80 crunches, and I try to do 20-30 push ups. It's nothing that'll shape me into a Greek statue, but it's helped me drop about 60lbs and lose some visceral fat. I'm the thinnest I've ever been since like the 7th grade.
What's your age, height/weight? Try to hit 60 pushups in 2 minutes and that's pretty good.
I'm doing 2 1/2 miles a week, primary lifts are barely 305/405/485 at ~195. The running is killing me, but bf is hovering at 15%, which is my lowest in the past 20 years, and it also mitigates the candy. For what it's worth, I got a 2" grouping of two full mags @ 200 from my 30-06 so I think I'm doing alright.
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on January 26, 2024, 08:36:56 PM
I try to keep calories around 1,800 with a focus on protein/low carbs. Drink lots of water and unsweetened drinks like flavored water or diet soda (I'm a bit partial to diet soda and I know it's not good).
I run 30 minutes a day, 80 sit-ups, 80 crunches, and I try to do 20-30 push ups. It's nothing that'll shape me into a Greek statue, but it's helped me drop about 60lbs and lose some visceral fat. I'm the thinnest I've ever been since like the 7th grade.
Excellent work. Add in chin ups and dips over time and I think you might be surprised the impact that can make towards being a statue.
Quote from: Brad on January 26, 2024, 08:55:24 PM
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on January 26, 2024, 08:36:56 PM
I try to keep calories around 1,800 with a focus on protein/low carbs. Drink lots of water and unsweetened drinks like flavored water or diet soda (I'm a bit partial to diet soda and I know it's not good).
I run 30 minutes a day, 80 sit-ups, 80 crunches, and I try to do 20-30 push ups. It's nothing that'll shape me into a Greek statue, but it's helped me drop about 60lbs and lose some visceral fat. I'm the thinnest I've ever been since like the 7th grade.
What's your age, height/weight? Try to hit 60 pushups in 2 minutes and that's pretty good.
I'm doing 2 1/2 miles a week, primary lifts are barely 305/405/485 at ~195. The running is killing me, but bf is hovering at 15%, which is my lowest in the past 20 years, and it also mitigates the candy. For what it's worth, I got a 2" grouping of two full mags @ 200 from my 30-06 so I think I'm doing alright.
I'm slowly working on building up muscle to do more, I know 30 isn't much so I wanna work on that. I'm 203lbs, 5' 11, 24yo. My biggest issue is that I'm losing weight, perhaps visceral fat, but my waist is still big. Trying to slim my stomach. I gotta try lifting more though.
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on January 27, 2024, 06:22:45 PM
I'm slowly working on building up muscle to do more, I know 30 isn't much so I wanna work on that. I'm 203lbs, 5' 11, 24yo. My biggest issue is that I'm losing weight, perhaps visceral fat, but my waist is still big. Trying to slim my stomach. I gotta try lifting more though.
I agree with the chins/dips work. It's basically free and you can do them anywhere. Not to mention girls like big arms...As far as losing weight goes, just clean up the diet and walk a couple miles a day during the week, 3 or 4 if possible, Saturdays hit the sauna or get a massage. At 24 your test levels should be extremely high, so belly fat will melt away with a little caloric deficit. If they're not high, the walking will help a ton. And do heavy as fuck squats, the quickest way to elevate test. You need to shoot for a single at around 2XBW if you want to be remotely strong, I bet you could hit that in 6 months.
Agree with Brad. Unless there is a reason beyond it would be a new environment (and possibly intimidating environment), join a gym with some free weights, hit that squat rack, rows and bench press and press along with the walking and dips/chins and at your age you will look like a different species in 6 months. A key ingredient to remember when you are holding some body fat is to make the muscles under it larger and stronger (process of stronger burns a little, and making them larger creates more calorie burn "at rest" and the metabolic process to recover from lifting also creates a caloric demand) because the last thing you want to do is lose that weight and have skin dangling. At your age though this will be a life changing process that benefits you for the rest of your life and it much easier to do at your age than later.
I would also advise if you do add in the lifting, raise your calories. At a large calorie deficit after about 8-10 weeks for most people your body will adapt to the calorie restriction in ways you do not want it to (start burning on the muscle versus the fat as muscle is burning calories at rest and fat is not). You do not have to go nuts and if you center it around protein and slamming vegetables and "good carbs" (like oatmeal) you will be fine. The best thing I have heard around this when you want to change how you look (and it is my sense you rather change what you look like versus a number a scale tells you) is to chase grams of protein intake a day and always consume protein first for calories. Drink only water (and milk for me) and cut out any other drinks (even diet soda can some interactions that can have some undesirable effects on hormone profile) that carry calories for the duration.
1800 calories a day though will get you hurt in a squat rack and possible even on dip bars. You are still going to slim down considerably as you are in a position and body composition level to "recomp" where your weight may stay similar, but pants will fit better, waist will slim, while legs, arms, back, shoulders, etc get a bit bigger as fat takes about a GREAT deal more volume for the same weight as muscle. Embrace your deep seated inner meat head and it will reward you.
Haha, seriously thank you both for the advice! I appreciate it. As for joining the gym, I might consider it but my brother has a small at home "gym" in his garage he's said I could use. I'd actually like to get into lifting, but the only thing holding me back is fear of messing up my back. I've done some test deadlifts with an empty bar, but I just can't get comfortable enough to throw on some weights. I might have to get him to show me after work some day soon.
As for calories, that's something else that's been bothering me. I've run off 1,800 for a while, but I've been nervous I might be chewing into my muscle and not just fat. I don't feel like I'm getting weaker so I think I've been okay so far, but I have no way to know. I had a friend who's big into fitness tell me I would be fine at 1,900 but I usually end up around 1,800 and some days I just don't eat a lot and might end up somewhere around 1,700. It's mostly protein and fat, with as low carb as I can go.
Aside from that I seriously feel a lot better since I started. My neck has thinned out quite a bit, my clothes are a lot more loose, and I have a bunch of pairs of jeans that look baggy. I don't know if my belt has gotten worn out, but i used to comfortably fit it at 2 notches and now I can crank it down to 4, but my waist measurement hasn't changed much. I really would like to bulk up my arms though.
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on January 28, 2024, 11:02:45 PMI'd actually like to get into lifting, but the only thing holding me back is fear of messing up my back.
Just get a couple of coaching sessions. Look up your local powerlifting or weightlifting gym. The slow lifts like squat, overhead press, bench press and deadlift aren't that complicated, and it's rare for anyone to hurt themselves doing them, even if they have no instruction at all. But having some confidence in it all helps, and a session or two will do that.
I'll give it a go then. I'll use dumbbells, but anything with a bar I've only really ever done laying down. Even just lifting heavy stuff to move around my house I'm very nervous to do something to my back.
That can be a well-founded fear. I've trained a guy who was a supermarket produce manager, he hurt his back moving a 25lb box of bananas.
This is the reason to strength train. It's just a formalised version of what we do every day. If you sit down on and stand up from chairs, you already squat. If you pick something up, you already deadlift. If you put something overhead, you already press. In the gym you formalise it and do it strictly, and do it with heavier load, progressing over time.
This gives you a safety margin. Picking up a fruit box, the lifting won't be done with good form - the person will be hunched over, twisting and so on. 25lb lifted sloppy can be harmful if the person is weak. But if we get you into the gym, essentially every person able to actually walk can do a barbell deadlift with 90lb. And then you work up over a few months to 225 or 315lb. If you can deadlift 225 with strict form, then you do can deadlift 25lb incredibly sloppily and you'll be fine. Strong makes up for sloppy.
It's like being 0-level man-at-arms vs a 3rd level fighter. With 2-7 hit points, just a single good hit is taking you down. But with 3-30 hit points you can take a hit or two and still be fine.
So that's the thing about strength training. It's much more important than sixpack abs or putting up big numbers at a meet. It levels you up so you can deal with the challenges in your life.
A few years back I laid out the principles of training. It doesn't teach you how to lift, but does teach you the principles behind it. This is how I train people in my gym - they learn the
why as they're learning the
how.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 30, 2024, 05:59:07 PM
It's like being 0-level man-at-arms vs a 3rd level fighter. With 2-7 hit points, just a single good hit is taking you down. But with 3-30 hit points you can take a hit or two and still be fine.
So that's the thing about strength training. It's much more important than sixpack abs or putting up big numbers at a meet. It levels you up so you can deal with the challenges in your life.
Originally I never intended on building up muscle, just lose weight. As I started learning about building up muscle to help shape the body and boost metabolism I started doing bicep curls and push ups to help. Kinda get my core strength up so my body can handle day to day lifting. Even if I don't end up ripped, I'd like to slim my waist and tone my body a bit. Wish I would've started a lot sooner, but better late than never. A few years ago I didn't care at all. If things work out at my weigh in this week I should be sub 200lbs, which is the lowest I've been since like middle school.
Speaking of character stuff, I wanna know what it must be like to be able to bend metal bars xD
I agree with you 100 percent Kyle, I think Rippetoe sums it up well when he says "Get strong because Strong people are more useful and harder to kill"
So the kid is putting alot of pressure on me. He did 5 pounds over his 1 RM for a set of 5 on squat (280x5) is close to his 1RM for 3 sets on the bench on Friday (145 for 3 sets of 5) and will be pulling 315 for 5 on Sunday...his former 1RM from 1st week of December. I am GREATLY enjoying the deload with the upper body playing with dumbbells for OHP (seated is such a comfort compared to the grind of a standing OHP) and attempting to rehab my bench press (which involves leisure sets of 8 focused solely on form and feeling engaged). I did hit 410 for 4 sets of 5 on the squat (I find riding a bit closer on percentages and dumping a set is working well for me with TM, and I might go to the general prescribed 5 sets...but 4 is good so far...intensity day is always the judge for this). I have to load up 460 for 5 on Sunday, 455 for 5 last Sunday was pretty easy and I had another 2, maybe 3 if I wanted to redline enough to see the savior, in me. So I might hit that goal squat a bit earlier than expected (going to program out to hit it in November).
Lately I have been working with an old martial arts friend who is trying to get more into boxing and kickboxing style training (he comes from more of a TMA background and feels his hands are not where he wants them to be). So I have been working with him in my backyard on defenses and it has been a lot of fun getting back into this stuff. Just showing him the basics in boxing and muay thai. Also it is a pretty good work out.
Been keeping up with my weights most days. Got hit with a bunch of colds and probably covid after going to a funeral and wake in December so there was a bit of a slowdown but back to my regular routine. Should be good weather for running soon too
Still doing a mix of boot camps, lifting, and Krav. Each a few times per week.
Quote from: The Spaniard on February 22, 2024, 01:09:01 PM
Still doing a mix of boot camps, lifting, and Krav. Each a few times per week.
Are you doing Krav Maga?
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 26, 2024, 04:24:55 PM
Quote from: The Spaniard on February 22, 2024, 01:09:01 PM
Still doing a mix of boot camps, lifting, and Krav. Each a few times per week.
Are you doing Krav Maga?
Yes, been doing it for about a year and 1/2.
Quote from: The Spaniard on February 26, 2024, 05:26:39 PM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 26, 2024, 04:24:55 PM
Quote from: The Spaniard on February 22, 2024, 01:09:01 PM
Still doing a mix of boot camps, lifting, and Krav. Each a few times per week.
Are you doing Krav Maga?
Yes, been doing it for about a year and 1/2.
Nice. I always did more sport martial arts but I have a friend who is very into Krav Maga
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 26, 2024, 05:57:26 PM
Quote from: The Spaniard on February 26, 2024, 05:26:39 PM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 26, 2024, 04:24:55 PM
Quote from: The Spaniard on February 22, 2024, 01:09:01 PM
Still doing a mix of boot camps, lifting, and Krav. Each a few times per week.
Are you doing Krav Maga?
Yes, been doing it for about a year and 1/2.
Nice. I always did more sport martial arts but I have a friend who is very into Krav Maga
I boxed and practiced Tae Kwan Do when I was younger. Traveling a ton for work prevented me from any kind of consistent training for a while. Krav has been great. Good conditioning, solid situational awareness training and de-escalation techniques, and good mix of striking, grappling and hold/restraint. I understand nationally it can be dicey though. You really need to vet who's running the program. There's some folks out there teaching nonsense. That probably holds true for many others as well though.
I have seen some quacks teaching Krav. It is more or less the modern incarnation of Jeet Kune Do. That is a very mixed bag as well, everything from literal masters of unarmed combat to dudes teaching eye pokes and trash striking and grappling. I do not have as much long term exposure with Krag Maga though, so I can not comment large scale, only on the one douche I saw teaching in my area and a few internet train wrecks. BJJ and MMA have had their share of posers too so I think it is something that happens any time something gets a good deal of exposure/publicity. The fakes tend to get weeded out in a few years though, especially if what they are teaching involves a good deal of live contact. Impossible to hide forever in that environment. I would guess if they people you train with have been around for 3+ years you are safe regarding whackos. I think that goes for most martial arts though, not just Krav, JKD or BJJ/etc.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 11:27:24 AM
I have seen some quacks teaching Krav. It is more or less the modern incarnation of Jeet Kune Do. That is a very mixed bag as well, everything from literal masters of unarmed combat to dudes teaching eye pokes and trash striking and grappling. I do not have as much long term exposure with Krag Maga though, so I can not comment large scale, only on the one douche I saw teaching in my area and a few internet train wrecks. BJJ and MMA have had their share of posers too so I think it is something that happens any time something gets a good deal of exposure/publicity. The fakes tend to get weeded out in a few years though, especially if what they are teaching involves a good deal of live contact. Impossible to hide forever in that environment. I would guess if they people you train with have been around for 3+ years you are safe regarding whackos. I think that goes for most martial arts though, not just Krav, JKD or BJJ/etc.
I don't know much about Krav Maga personally, so I can't comment on the level of bad instruction or good instruction. But in my experience you always need to be on the look out for quacks, bad curriculum, dangerous coaching habits, etc. And places offering self defense, especially street self defense, often seem to be more prone to this. Also just having lived in a high crime area, when I have been to such schools, I really find myself questioning the wisdom of a lot of the advice I have heard.
I think BJJ has just gotten so big that it is now becoming prone to the kinds of things we saw in karate, taekwondo, etc in the 80s and 90s. I started in Olympic style Taekwondo before moving into muay thai, boxing and sansohu, so I remember encountering plenty of martial arts mythology (this was before they started using censors on the gear for sparring though, which pretty much killed my interest in watching Olympic TKD). JKD is one I have always been curious about, because like a lot of people, I like Bruce Lee, but anytime I have seen a JKD gym near me and checked them out, the instructors haven't filled me with confidence. That may have nothing to do with JKD itself though. But as an example there was a school nearby that opened and I thought of checking it out. But when I looked them up online there was video of the instructor doing punching drills and his punches looked undisciplined and he had a lot of bad habits (and I don't think the bad habits were meant to be part of the style).
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 11:27:24 AM
I have seen some quacks teaching Krav. It is more or less the modern incarnation of Jeet Kune Do. That is a very mixed bag as well, everything from literal masters of unarmed combat to dudes teaching eye pokes and trash striking and grappling. I do not have as much long term exposure with Krag Maga though, so I can not comment large scale, only on the one douche I saw teaching in my area and a few internet train wrecks. BJJ and MMA have had their share of posers too so I think it is something that happens any time something gets a good deal of exposure/publicity. The fakes tend to get weeded out in a few years though, especially if what they are teaching involves a good deal of live contact. Impossible to hide forever in that environment. I would guess if they people you train with have been around for 3+ years you are safe regarding whackos. I think that goes for most martial arts though, not just Krav, JKD or BJJ/etc.
I am one of those people that just can't learn BJJ. I tried many many times. It is definitely a very practical style, especially if it is taught well. I have no gripes with it as a style, but it felt like learning algebra to me. I had an easier time with Judo. Judo made sense to me as a striker more than BJJ. And I went plenty but I think a combined lack of enthusiasm, having more of a striker's disposition and just feeling mentally tired by the lessons, meant I effectively made little to no progress
Quote from: The Spaniard on February 27, 2024, 09:47:43 AM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 26, 2024, 05:57:26 PM
Quote from: The Spaniard on February 26, 2024, 05:26:39 PM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 26, 2024, 04:24:55 PM
Quote from: The Spaniard on February 22, 2024, 01:09:01 PM
Still doing a mix of boot camps, lifting, and Krav. Each a few times per week.
Are you doing Krav Maga?
Yes, been doing it for about a year and 1/2.
Nice. I always did more sport martial arts but I have a friend who is very into Krav Maga
I boxed and practiced Tae Kwan Do when I was younger. Traveling a ton for work prevented me from any kind of consistent training for a while. Krav has been great. Good conditioning, solid situational awareness training and de-escalation techniques, and good mix of striking, grappling and hold/restraint. I understand nationally it can be dicey though. You really need to vet who's running the program. There's some folks out there teaching nonsense. That probably holds true for many others as well though.
Cool. I used to compete in olympic taekwondo. Do you know what style you learned?
Boxing is probably my favorite martial art. My grandfather was a boxer and so were most of his brothers, and I grew up watching it. I haven't competed in boxing but went to boxing gyms and sparred for a long time and it is definitely the martial art I clicked with the most. It is punishing though. You definitely feel like you have been put through the ringer after several rounds of sparring
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 27, 2024, 12:50:30 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 11:27:24 AM
I have seen some quacks teaching Krav. It is more or less the modern incarnation of Jeet Kune Do. That is a very mixed bag as well, everything from literal masters of unarmed combat to dudes teaching eye pokes and trash striking and grappling. I do not have as much long term exposure with Krag Maga though, so I can not comment large scale, only on the one douche I saw teaching in my area and a few internet train wrecks. BJJ and MMA have had their share of posers too so I think it is something that happens any time something gets a good deal of exposure/publicity. The fakes tend to get weeded out in a few years though, especially if what they are teaching involves a good deal of live contact. Impossible to hide forever in that environment. I would guess if they people you train with have been around for 3+ years you are safe regarding whackos. I think that goes for most martial arts though, not just Krav, JKD or BJJ/etc.
I am one of those people that just can't learn BJJ. I tried many many times. It is definitely a very practical style, especially if it is taught well. I have no gripes with it as a style, but it felt like learning algebra to me. I had an easier time with Judo. Judo made sense to me as a striker more than BJJ. And I went plenty but I think a combined lack of enthusiasm, having more of a striker's disposition and just feeling mentally tired by the lessons, meant I effectively made little to no progress
I always learned all of them pretty fast. I have no idea why. I think striking people is easier to learn by a good margin for one reason. You can practice the most important things you need for being effective hitting people without another person. Footwork, shadowboxing, etc all go a loooong ways to making you better. To a degree Judo can be done solo with the foot work and timing of footwork drills. BJJ almost everything really needs another person to practice so its pretty impractical to work on solo, well past standing footwork/shooting doubles... essentially the same sorts of drills for wrestling/Judo.
I made progress MUCH faster with my striking though (on a scale of being competitive with full time pros) than grappling largely because I think there is a pretty big difference in the progression curve due to as I said you can progress solo substantially with striking, no where near as much grappling. As for Judo...well I guess if you mean the parts standing (which half of BJJ standing is Judo, the other half wrestling), but on the mat...they are the same (with most Judo grappling instruction being a bit more "raw" IMO, but effectively the techniques are the same past no leg locks in Judo) so do you mean you had an easier time standing grappling versus mat grappling?
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 01:03:34 PM
............... As for Judo...well I guess if you mean the parts standing (which half of BJJ standing is Judo, the other half wrestling), but on the mat...they are the same (with most Judo grappling instruction being a bit more "raw" IMO, but effectively the techniques are the same past no leg locks in Judo) so do you mean you had an easier time standing grappling versus mat grappling?
Note: formatting got all messed up so I had to pair down the quotes and couldn't put the following paragraphs directly under your relevant statements as a result
Striking I always learned quickly. Striking is easier to learn I think. But I definitely have more of a knack for it as well (I think growing up with it in the family made a difference too). You can get a long way with 6 months of training for example in a striking style. I think I was competing in TKD my first or second month training. But BJJ in particular was something I found hard. I did some wrestling in gym in high school and I got that. I am no wrestler but I didn't bounce off of it the way I bounced off BJJ. Judo I got. There were parts I had difficulty with, but it didn't feel anything like BJJ to me in terms of difficulty. And I honestly am not 100% sure why. I just know I really, really, dislike learning BJJ in a big way.
I will say though with striking you have to work with partners and spar in order to develop real skill. If you are doing it solo, you wont' be able to pull off much in an actual live match. And they do share footwork being important. Striking is very much about footwork. If you can't move into position you can't hit. I can't imagine doing judo solo either. Any martial art, I feel like I need to use against fully resisting opponents to learn well.
I don't know. It has been a very long time and I am not very fond of grappling arts in general. It has been about 14 years since I did Judo so I probably can't give a very solid break down of the why's. And the last BJJ class I took was probably in 2008. I think judo having more standing elements was a factor. Once I realized I am not into grappling, I stuck with stuff like Muay Thai and Boxing. I loved sweeps. But I also found BJJ, at least places where I learned it to be very technical and have a very different culture. In general I found the judo crowd to be easier to get along with as a striker. Whereas I found BJJ folks a little harder to get along with. Again that might just be the dumb luck of the places I went to around here. There was a lot in Judo that was the same as BJJ, but even then I didn't find it as tasking to learn. And there seemed to be more room for, for lack of a better term, gross motor skill rather than fine. It just felt better to me to learn than BJJ. Everything in BJJ came very slowly to me, seemed incredibly precise. Overall I just found judo more intuitive and workable. Though I found more of the judo stuff easier to incorporate into things like Sanshou. There is a lot of stand up stuff in judo that translated into sanshou well. In BJJ things felt very counter intuitive. I just never found it fun to learn and always had a harder time with the concepts. But judo I at least enjoyed. I am not exactly great in Judo either. I just picked up more of it and was able to carry more of it forward. I rolled in both and did okay enough but I had a better time in Judo for sure. And I would never claim to have any real skill in either.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 01:03:34 PM
I always learned all of them pretty fast. I have no idea why. I think striking people is easier to learn by a good margin for one reason. You can practice the most important things you need for being effective hitting people without another person.
You can hit the heavy bag and shadow box. So that is true for sure. But you have to do live drills, sparring and pad work with other people to get anywhere near competent at striking. And the difference in skill from someone who has mastered the foundation to someone who understands all the nuance is, no pun intended, striking. There is a lot of subtlety in striking that you don't grasp or understand until you have been doing it for many years
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 27, 2024, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 01:03:34 PM
I always learned all of them pretty fast. I have no idea why. I think striking people is easier to learn by a good margin for one reason. You can practice the most important things you need for being effective hitting people without another person.
You can hit the heavy bag and shadow box. So that is true for sure. But you have to do live drills, sparring and pad work with other people to get anywhere near competent at striking. And the difference in skill from someone who has mastered the foundation to someone who understands all the nuance is, no pun intended, striking. There is a lot of subtlety in striking that you don't grasp or understand until you have been doing it for many years
I have been doing it for many years (31 years in October) and teaching it for a while (18 years). What I said is flat out true. Foot work and shadow boxing (really shadow boxing with polished footwork) does more for EVERYONE early on (the first year) than anything else. I would say a heavy bag is a detriment for the most part to do alone for that first year due to unnoticed bad habits. Sparring does not improve anyone's striking it is like taking a quiz, it tells you what you do or do not know, but is not a developmental tool until both parties are good already. Pad work I agree is the real development to striking ability to make you good as well as drills with other people that mimic light sparring but have defined parameters and goals. So take it from someone who has done it for many years, who has mastered the foundation, and who understands the nuance (though no one can do or knows it all) It will advance faster than grappling because you can do a massive portion of the "homework" away from the dojo/academy/gym. This was at least the case for me where I could spend an hour or so extra outside of a dedicated training environment (this was a minimum even when training 25 hours a week in addition to working full time) and it was the case for literally everyone good that I know (the ability to work on the more subtle and repetition work alone) with work on the footwork and movement. That is what matters first and foremost striking. Pad work develops this to a degree, but with new people it mostly exposes poor footwork that can be developed to a degree on the spot (with regard to the person learning what is correct) but a shitload of reps on their own is going to make a MUCH bigger difference than more pad work in the early going. Because for boxing and kickboxing the way you move is for the most part "backwards" compared to normal movement, it is the slowest thing to develop with any new person and the thing they can improve the most on their own time if so inclined.
Now all that barfed out you do need to spar and do pad work to be good. The biggest difference anyone can make to get good faster is that subtle work on their footwork on their own time. Of course in the gym/academy you can work on this during a designated training time but the curve gets sped up dramatically if proper footwork is practiced daily on the trainees own time...and not even a ton of it, half and hour to an hour a day will make an incredible difference. This points to my point though, you can have a dramatic impact doing things on your own time with regards to striking, you can not with regard to grappling...at least not in the realm of technical development.
Re reading that it does look like argumentative glop than how I intended. I will compare it this way, A motivated trainee with his striking can be the equivalent to how I would view a purple belt (4-5 years of consistent and frequent training) in 12-18 months. This means I expect that trainee to look good and function well in live sparring, will look like a pro doing pad work, and be able to fight as an amateur with no problems (assuming he has what it takes to fight...that is a more complicated thing that is not purely skill driven). He will look good under pressure and be pretty polished. A person straight off the street with no prior grappling (wrestlers can break this time frame...but often have things they will not unlearn early) in no way will look to be at the same relative competence level for the most part. This is assuming 4 days a week training. This is because the Kickboxer/boxer/striker will be able to work and work hard on the things that will make him good the fastest (footwork, balance, head movement) on his own to great efficacy once he knows how to do these things. The grappler is going to be pretty limited to his solo drills and bridging and shrimping will help his fundamentals but slow his progress as compared to solo drill impact for striking.
This is also for another reason, I think you get more from working on footwork till it is good than you get from sparring. It is fine to spar as you develop, but IMO as I said the sparring is for the most part a quiz...that footwork, pad work, shadow boxing is the homework. You have to do the homework to do well on the quiz. Grappling is different in this regard...many people get a ton of their development from sparring. Now this is not to say I have not seen outliers to both these things and understand they exist. IME though sparring for striking is a quiz/test and to a degree it is grappling as well its just the speed dial for grappling is much easier to turn down and still be sparring than it is for anything realistic striking wise. Even 50 percent contact with people who know what they are doing means often a pretty negative feedback loop while striking....where getting slowly submitted with a person slowly applying an armlock is not the same sort of psychological shock that having blood drip from your nose is (and for sure 50 percent power landing really clean will do this). To this end that was my main point the PRIMARY developmental tool (footwork, balance, head movement) for striking can be done alone....the primary development tool for grappling (partner drills and live rolling/sparring) can not.
One more to say what really matters...great you are training and doing so consistently. Cheers.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 27, 2024, 01:41:33 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 01:03:34 PM
............... As for Judo...well I guess if you mean the parts standing (which half of BJJ standing is Judo, the other half wrestling), but on the mat...they are the same (with most Judo grappling instruction being a bit more "raw" IMO, but effectively the techniques are the same past no leg locks in Judo) so do you mean you had an easier time standing grappling versus mat grappling?
Note: formatting got all messed up so I had to pair down the quotes and couldn't put the following paragraphs directly under your relevant statements as a result
Striking I always learned quickly. Striking is easier to learn I think. But I definitely have more of a knack for it as well (I think growing up with it in the family made a difference too). You can get a long way with 6 months of training for example in a striking style. I think I was competing in TKD my first or second month training. But BJJ in particular was something I found hard. I did some wrestling in gym in high school and I got that. I am no wrestler but I didn't bounce off of it the way I bounced off BJJ. Judo I got. There were parts I had difficulty with, but it didn't feel anything like BJJ to me in terms of difficulty. And I honestly am not 100% sure why. I just know I really, really, dislike learning BJJ in a big way.
I will say though with striking you have to work with partners and spar in order to develop real skill. If you are doing it solo, you wont' be able to pull off much in an actual live match. And they do share footwork being important. Striking is very much about footwork. If you can't move into position you can't hit. I can't imagine doing judo solo either. Any martial art, I feel like I need to use against fully resisting opponents to learn well.
I don't know. It has been a very long time and I am not very fond of grappling arts in general. It has been about 14 years since I did Judo so I probably can't give a very solid break down of the why's. And the last BJJ class I took was probably in 2008. I think judo having more standing elements was a factor. Once I realized I am not into grappling, I stuck with stuff like Muay Thai and Boxing. I loved sweeps. But I also found BJJ, at least places where I learned it to be very technical and have a very different culture. In general I found the judo crowd to be easier to get along with as a striker. Whereas I found BJJ folks a little harder to get along with. Again that might just be the dumb luck of the places I went to around here. There was a lot in Judo that was the same as BJJ, but even then I didn't find it as tasking to learn. And there seemed to be more room for, for lack of a better term, gross motor skill rather than fine. It just felt better to me to learn than BJJ. Everything in BJJ came very slowly to me, seemed incredibly precise. Overall I just found judo more intuitive and workable. Though I found more of the judo stuff easier to incorporate into things like Sanshou. There is a lot of stand up stuff in judo that translated into sanshou well. In BJJ things felt very counter intuitive. I just never found it fun to learn and always had a harder time with the concepts. But judo I at least enjoyed. I am not exactly great in Judo either. I just picked up more of it and was able to carry more of it forward. I rolled in both and did okay enough but I had a better time in Judo for sure. And I would never claim to have any real skill in either.
Regarding getting along with the BJJ crowd...they can trend towards obsessed autists and I think if I had not started training when I did (1997 for BJJ) I do not know that the current generation (or the one you speak of in 2008) would be my cup of tea. I have an advantage in that the guys I taught are all more on the old school line of thinking so I do not have to deal with the folks who can be...well a pain in the ass to get along with that are no where near as uncommon as I would like for them to be in BJJ. So I think I know what you are talking about there...from the start there was a tone of arrogance around BJJ I did not care for. Most of the guys I trained with were as new or almost as new as I was though. So in a way I didnt catch much flak for being able to box their ears or kick their heads off since I was submitting most of them at the time. But it was a time where everyone was sort of new and most places the people training there had all done something else before (Karate, TKD, kickboxing, judo, wrestled, etc) I would say the Judo club I trained with the people were MUCH more laid back than just about any BJJ place I have been (even at the place I ran I think people were wound a bit tight even though I tried to keep everyone laid back) and I guess that could be born of that old "gracie challenge" BS BJJ really got its start with in North America.
I think details to teaching a technique are important...but I also think most BJJ instructors waaaay over sell the importance of exact placement and technical perfection. That is especially true when teaching something new to people. IME it is a waste of time to harp on precision...now this is not to say your guy was like that...but often details are more long winded than they have to be when something gets taught to a class. I prefer to keep a warm up that revolves around a technique I want to hammer into people versus trying to nit pick too much on foot and hand placement. I will correct them when I see them try something sparring (as to me this is the best time to fix doing something wrong, the trainee wanted to do it so their interest is maxed, their acceptance to coaching/instruction will have the highest coupling of attention/emotional attachment you are going to get to marry to memory) if they were on the right path. Generally I think things stick the best for a person when they ask me a question directly about something they tried/or are attempting. I do the step in while sparring thing because the years have taught me not everyone is willing to approach me after, before, or during a class to ask a question. That said...its OK to not train or like to train grappling. I like all of them...well at my age I am not battling for a contested takedown past 10 seconds...and think whatever gets you to train consistently is always the best choice.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 03:48:20 PM
I have been doing it for many years (31 years in October) and teaching it for a while (18 years). What I said is flat out true. Foot work and shadow boxing (really shadow boxing with polished footwork) does more for EVERYONE early on (the first year) than anything else. I would say a heavy bag is a detriment for the most part to do alone for that first year due to unnoticed bad habits. Sparring does not improve anyone's striking it is like taking a quiz, it tells you what you do or do not know, but is not a developmental tool until both parties are good already. Pad work I agree is the real development to striking ability to make you good as well as drills with other people that mimic light sparring but have defined parameters and goals. So take it from someone who has done it for many years, who has mastered the foundation, and who understands the nuance (though no one can do or knows it all) It will advance faster than grappling because you can do a massive portion of the "homework" away from the dojo/academy/gym. This was at least the case for me where I could spend an hour or so extra outside of a dedicated training environment (this was a minimum even when training 25 hours a week in addition to working full time) and it was the case for literally everyone good that I know (the ability to work on the more subtle and repetition work alone) with work on the footwork and movement. That is what matters first and foremost striking. Pad work develops this to a degree, but with new people it mostly exposes poor footwork that can be developed to a degree on the spot (with regard to the person learning what is correct) but a shitload of reps on their own is going to make a MUCH bigger difference than more pad work in the early going. Because for boxing and kickboxing the way you move is for the most part "backwards" compared to normal movement, it is the slowest thing to develop with any new person and the thing they can improve the most on their own time if so inclined.
If you have experience that is great. But I go by what I see in the gym myself and what I have learned from people I know in real life. I am not saying that as a disrespect. I am sure you have a lot of martial arts experience and 31 years is a long time. All the respect in the world but I think you and I have different schools of thought on a lot of this stuff (which is fine, I don't expect you to share my views). That said I don't think we disagree hugely here. I just think we are debating some of the finer details (or possibly speaking past each other a bit).
I am not sure what your point is here though. I never said footwork or shadow boxing weren't important. I said they can't prepare you for a fight in the ring alone. You can do all that, but if you exclude sparring, you are not going to be any good at all. I would also disagree that sparring is a pop quiz. I mean yes it can test a fighter's skills but you learn more in sparring than just about any activity if it is done well (the problem with sparring is it is a high pressure situation and you need to balance it will more relaxed drills, lighter sparring drills and all the other. I am not disagreeing with a lot of what you are saying. I mean footwork is foundational to everything in boxing or kickboxing (and even in taekwondo) and most people have had the experience of going to a gym, sparring and realizing they can't touch anyone because they don't even know how to move their feet. When I get up every morning the first thing I do is shadow box. I also do conditioning exercises so I can move well on the balls of my feet and I do punch step exercises for timing. So sure, that stuff is stuff you have to do to be good. My point is just you can't train striking solo and be any good (even if you look awesome moving around and striking, until you know how to hit a moving target, how to respond to someone trying to punch you, you don't know what you are doing).
QuoteNow all that barfed out you do need to spar and do pad work to be good. The biggest difference anyone can make to get good faster is that subtle work on their footwork on their own time. Of course in the gym/academy you can work on this during a designated training time but the curve gets sped up dramatically if proper footwork is practiced daily on the trainees own time...and not even a ton of it, half and hour to an hour a day will make an incredible difference. This points to my point though, you can have a dramatic impact doing things on your own time with regards to striking, you can not with regard to grappling...at least not in the realm of technical development.
I am not entirely clear what your point is here. Though it looks like we agree sparring and pad work are essential. But I would just say, training on your own is important in striking. But you won't be any good at all if that is all you are doing. You can train footwork and shadow box till the cows come home. That won't matter if you don't expose yourself to the nuances of real in ring fighting. And I guess my broader point is, while I agree with you that grappling is harder to learn (I mean I struggled with it and it clearly took peopel around me longer than in striking to master the basics, the nuances of boxing and kick boxing take years to master. You can get someone in fighting shape and ready to compete in months. And you can usually spar right off the bat. But a person who has been boxing 1 year is very different from a person who has been boxing for 5 or 8 years.
Also footwork is great. It is foundational. But it is not where all the nuance resides in boxing. A lot of the nuance is there. But there are other places you have to devote energy to. It takes a long time to gain fluidity in your punches for example. It takes time to really learn how to utilize angles. And things like parrying, bobbing and weaving, even something as simple as really understanding how to read where punches are coming from, or how to exterminate any flinch reflex, those are all things that sparring is important to fixing. Obviously drills and padwork too. But my point a live situation is always a different kettle of fish. The drills, pad work and shadow boxing are all important preparation, but you will find yourself refining all that through live sparring. And of course all that need to be in harmony with footwork so footwork is a huge part of the equation.
When it comes to training I tend to prefer old school gyms. So I usually expect there to be something like a 45-60 minute class where you condition, learn basic technique, do drills, etc. But I also expect open windows in the gym to train more freely. And it should all be around a clock with bells for rounds.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 27, 2024, 04:33:03 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 03:48:20 PM
I have been doing it for many years (31 years in October) and teaching it for a while (18 years). What I said is flat out true. Foot work and shadow boxing (really shadow boxing with polished footwork) does more for EVERYONE early on (the first year) than anything else. I would say a heavy bag is a detriment for the most part to do alone for that first year due to unnoticed bad habits. Sparring does not improve anyone's striking it is like taking a quiz, it tells you what you do or do not know, but is not a developmental tool until both parties are good already. Pad work I agree is the real development to striking ability to make you good as well as drills with other people that mimic light sparring but have defined parameters and goals. So take it from someone who has done it for many years, who has mastered the foundation, and who understands the nuance (though no one can do or knows it all) It will advance faster than grappling because you can do a massive portion of the "homework" away from the dojo/academy/gym. This was at least the case for me where I could spend an hour or so extra outside of a dedicated training environment (this was a minimum even when training 25 hours a week in addition to working full time) and it was the case for literally everyone good that I know (the ability to work on the more subtle and repetition work alone) with work on the footwork and movement. That is what matters first and foremost striking. Pad work develops this to a degree, but with new people it mostly exposes poor footwork that can be developed to a degree on the spot (with regard to the person learning what is correct) but a shitload of reps on their own is going to make a MUCH bigger difference than more pad work in the early going. Because for boxing and kickboxing the way you move is for the most part "backwards" compared to normal movement, it is the slowest thing to develop with any new person and the thing they can improve the most on their own time if so inclined.
If you have experience that is great. But I go by what I see in the gym myself and what I have learned from people I know in real life. I am not saying that as a disrespect. I am sure you have a lot of martial arts experience and 31 years is a long time. All the respect in the world but I think you and I have different schools of thought on a lot of this stuff (which is fine, I don't expect you to share my views). That said I don't think we disagree hugely here. I just think we are debating some of the finer details (or possibly speaking past each other a bit).
I am not sure what your point is here though. I never said footwork or shadow boxing weren't important. I said they can't prepare you for a fight in the ring alone. You can do all that, but if you exclude sparring, you are not going to be any good at all. I would also disagree that sparring is a pop quiz. I mean yes it can test a fighter's skills but you learn more in sparring than just about any activity if it is done well (the problem with sparring is it is a high pressure situation and you need to balance it will more relaxed drills, lighter sparring drills and all the other. I am not disagreeing with a lot of what you are saying. I mean footwork is foundational to everything in boxing or kickboxing (and even in taekwondo) and most people have had the experience of going to a gym, sparring and realizing they can't touch anyone because they don't even know how to move their feet. When I get up every morning the first thing I do is shadow box. I also do conditioning exercises so I can move well on the balls of my feet and I do punch step exercises for timing. So sure, that stuff is stuff you have to do to be good. My point is just you can't train striking solo and be any good (even if you look awesome moving around and striking, until you know how to hit a moving target, how to respond to someone trying to punch you, you don't know what you are doing).
QuoteNow all that barfed out you do need to spar and do pad work to be good. The biggest difference anyone can make to get good faster is that subtle work on their footwork on their own time. Of course in the gym/academy you can work on this during a designated training time but the curve gets sped up dramatically if proper footwork is practiced daily on the trainees own time...and not even a ton of it, half and hour to an hour a day will make an incredible difference. This points to my point though, you can have a dramatic impact doing things on your own time with regards to striking, you can not with regard to grappling...at least not in the realm of technical development.
I am not entirely clear what your point is here. Though it looks like we agree sparring and pad work are essential. But I would just say, training on your own is important in striking. But you won't be any good at all if that is all you are doing. You can train footwork and shadow box till the cows come home. That won't matter if you don't expose yourself to the nuances of real in ring fighting. And I guess my broader point is, while I agree with you that grappling is harder to learn (I mean I struggled with it and it clearly took peopel around me longer than in striking to master the basics, the nuances of boxing and kick boxing take years to master. You can get someone in fighting shape and ready to compete in months. And you can usually spar right off the bat. But a person who has been boxing 1 year is very different from a person who has been boxing for 5 or 8 years.
Also footwork is great. It is foundational. But it is not where all the nuance resides in boxing. A lot of the nuance is there. But there are other places you have to devote energy to. It takes a long time to gain fluidity in your punches for example. It takes time to really learn how to utilize angles. And things like parrying, bobbing and weaving, even something as simple as really understanding how to read where punches are coming from, or how to exterminate any flinch reflex, those are all things that sparring is important to fixing. Obviously drills and padwork too. But my point a live situation is always a different kettle of fish. The drills, pad work and shadow boxing are all important preparation, but you will find yourself refining all that through live sparring. And of course all that need to be in harmony with footwork so footwork is a huge part of the equation.
When it comes to training I tend to prefer old school gyms. So I usually expect there to be something like a 45-60 minute class where you condition, learn basic technique, do drills, etc. But I also expect open windows in the gym to train more freely. And it should all be around a clock with bells for rounds.
Thing is...when I mentioned you can train alone for striking...I never said you would be good doing it. I said you would get good MUCH faster doing it while doing all the other stuff. That is a fact. So you are arguing a point I did not make. Everything else you said fully supports everything I said...so we do agree. I think you somehow think I said your working alone will make you good. I said it is the big accelerant to getting good at striking faster than you can get good at grappling.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 04:15:17 PM
Re reading that it does look like argumentative glop than how I intended. I will compare it this way, A motivated trainee with his striking can be the equivalent to how I would view a purple belt (4-5 years of consistent and frequent training) in 12-18 months. This means I expect that trainee to look good and function well in live sparring, will look like a pro doing pad work, and be able to fight as an amateur with no problems (assuming he has what it takes to fight...that is a more complicated thing that is not purely skill driven). He will look good under pressure and be pretty polished. A person straight off the street with no prior grappling (wrestlers can break this time frame...but often have things they will not unlearn early) in no way will look to be at the same relative competence level for the most part. This is assuming 4 days a week training. This is because the Kickboxer/boxer/striker will be able to work and work hard on the things that will make him good the fastest (footwork, balance, head movement) on his own to great efficacy once he knows how to do these things. The grappler is going to be pretty limited to his solo drills and bridging and shrimping will help his fundamentals but slow his progress as compared to solo drill impact for striking.
Appreciate that. For the record I am not trying to be argumentative at all but like I said I am a striker. I tend to punch back if I perceive someone is punching me (even if it is verbal). What you say is reasonable. When I first went to a muay thai gym, they wanted me to fight after just 2 months (it was an emergency situation because someone who had a fight got injured but I am pretty sure I could have handled myself okay: turned out it wasn't necessary though). After about a year of training you do look good. And I agree it takes longer to look good at grappling. My only point was after that 1 year to 18 months of training there is still tons to learn in striking. I was not happy with my punches for example until about 6 years in. I could hit like a truck from the get go. It was one of the things I was good at. But I get so much more power now and I have such better command and fluidity and I know how to find openings so much better.
QuoteThis is also for another reason, I think you get more from working on footwork till it is good than you get from sparring. It is fine to spar as you develop, but IMO as I said the sparring is for the most part a quiz...that footwork, pad work, shadow boxing is the homework. You have to do the homework to do well on the quiz.
I guess this is our main point of disagreement though it really isn't by a lot. I think footwork is crucial. You have to work on footwork. But the best thing for making sure your footwork is improving and to experiment further and improve more, is sparring. You have to do shadow boxing, drills like punch step, conditioning drills where you are moving around the ring and developing the muscles. But you also got to spar. And I don't see sparring as a quiz. I see sparring as something you do as regularly as possible because yes it does test what you learned, but it is also where you learn to put to use what you have learned. Hitting a bag and hitting a man are night and day. Hitting a pad and hitting a head are night and day.
QuoteGrappling is different in this regard...many people get a ton of their development from sparring. Now this is not to say I have not seen outliers to both these things and understand they exist. IME though sparring for striking is a quiz/test and to a degree it is grappling as well its just the speed dial for grappling is much easier to turn down and still be sparring than it is for anything realistic striking wise. Even 50 percent contact with people who know what they are doing means often a pretty negative feedback loop while striking....where getting slowly submitted with a person slowly applying an armlock is not the same sort of psychological shock that having blood drip from your nose is (and for sure 50 percent power landing really clean will do this). To this end that was my main point the PRIMARY developmental tool (footwork, balance, head movement) for striking can be done alone....the primary development tool for grappling (partner drills and live rolling/sparring) can not.
Again, I can't comment on grappling much, so I am sure your commentary here is accurate in that regard, but I think you get just as much development from sparring in boxing, muay thai and even stuff like TKD.
Where I agree is grappling is easier to manage sparring. There are many many pitfalls to live sparring with striking. I have more concussion than I can remember. But I come from the hard sparring school of thought with this stuff. Rarely are you going 100% (for example an approach I often saw was something like 100% against the body but 50% against the head, assuming you are sparring someone in your weight category). But talking in percentages is important. A good instructor knows when to go down to 20% so you can experiment and learn, and knows when to crank it up so you can learn what it is like when someone is trying to hit you hard. And you have to learn to be hit hard as well. Learning to take punishment is part of boxing and muay thai.
Well I would say in terms of what is primary in striking, they are all important. But if you remove sparring, that is bigger than removing pad work. You shouldn't remove pad work either but sparring is what separates people who know how to strike and peopel who just know how to hit pads IMO
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 04:18:54 PM
One more to say what really matters...great you are training and doing so consistently. Cheers.
Thanks! I am getting older (in my late 40s) so I am slowing down, and mostly just trying to keep my conditioning, strength and speed at this point
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 04:30:01 PM
Regarding getting along with the BJJ crowd...they can trend towards obsessed autists and I think if I had not started training when I did (1997 for BJJ) I do not know that the current generation (or the one you speak of in 2008) would be my cup of tea. I have an advantage in that the guys I taught are all more on the old school line of thinking so I do not have to deal with the folks who can be...well a pain in the ass to get along with that are no where near as uncommon as I would like for them to be in BJJ. So I think I know what you are talking about there...from the start there was a tone of arrogance around BJJ I did not care for. Most of the guys I trained with were as new or almost as new as I was though. So in a way I didnt catch much flak for being able to box their ears or kick their heads off since I was submitting most of them at the time. But it was a time where everyone was sort of new and most places the people training there had all done something else before (Karate, TKD, kickboxing, judo, wrestled, etc) I would say the Judo club I trained with the people were MUCH more laid back than just about any BJJ place I have been (even at the place I ran I think people were wound a bit tight even though I tried to keep everyone laid back) and I guess that could be born of that old "gracie challenge" BS BJJ really got its start with in North America.
I started I think in 2000, but didn't do BJJ till probably 2004 or so. Not sure where that puts things generationally. It is hard to put into words what bothered me about BJJ places. But there was more of an engineering or math mindset if that makes sense.
Muay Thai gyms were pretty good places to train here in the 2000s. I found those easy to navigate
Quote
I think details to teaching a technique are important...but I also think most BJJ instructors waaaay over sell the importance of exact placement and technical perfection. That is especially true when teaching something new to people. IME it is a waste of time to harp on precision...now this is not to say your guy was like that...but often details are more long winded than they have to be when something gets taught to a class. I prefer to keep a warm up that revolves around a technique I want to hammer into people versus trying to nit pick too much on foot and hand placement. I will correct them when I see them try something sparring (as to me this is the best time to fix doing something wrong, the trainee wanted to do it so their interest is maxed, their acceptance to coaching/instruction will have the highest coupling of attention/emotional attachment you are going to get to marry to memory) if they were on the right path. Generally I think things stick the best for a person when they ask me a question directly about something they tried/or are attempting. I do the step in while sparring thing because the years have taught me not everyone is willing to approach me after, before, or during a class to ask a question. That said...it's OK to not train or like to train grappling. I like all of them...well at my age I am not battling for a contested takedown past 10 seconds...and think whatever gets you to train consistently is always the best choice.
I do think this was a big part of it. I would liken it to trying to learn a language and not being able to pronounce the word exactly right and just having the experience of constantly being corrected. Striking is a lot easier to imitate. And while they will refine your technique over time, and there is negative correction, it just felt different.
In the end, I realized I enjoyed striking combat sports so have stuck with those. I am not learning it for the street. I am not going to be in an MMA match, so the value to me enjoying the martial art I train in. I like the feel of kicking and punching and sparring
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 27, 2024, 04:50:53 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 04:15:17 PM
Re reading that it does look like argumentative glop than how I intended. I will compare it this way, A motivated trainee with his striking can be the equivalent to how I would view a purple belt (4-5 years of consistent and frequent training) in 12-18 months. This means I expect that trainee to look good and function well in live sparring, will look like a pro doing pad work, and be able to fight as an amateur with no problems (assuming he has what it takes to fight...that is a more complicated thing that is not purely skill driven). He will look good under pressure and be pretty polished. A person straight off the street with no prior grappling (wrestlers can break this time frame...but often have things they will not unlearn early) in no way will look to be at the same relative competence level for the most part. This is assuming 4 days a week training. This is because the Kickboxer/boxer/striker will be able to work and work hard on the things that will make him good the fastest (footwork, balance, head movement) on his own to great efficacy once he knows how to do these things. The grappler is going to be pretty limited to his solo drills and bridging and shrimping will help his fundamentals but slow his progress as compared to solo drill impact for striking.
Appreciate that. For the record I am not trying to be argumentative at all but like I said I am a striker. I tend to punch back if I perceive someone is punching me (even if it is verbal). What you say is reasonable. When I first went to a muay thai gym, they wanted me to fight after just 2 months (it was an emergency situation because someone who had a fight got injured but I am pretty sure I could have handled myself okay: turned out it wasn't necessary though). After about a year of training you do look good. And I agree it takes longer to look good at grappling. My only point was after that 1 year to 18 months of training there is still tons to learn in striking. I was not happy with my punches for example until about 6 years in. I could hit like a truck from the get go. It was one of the things I was good at. But I get so much more power now and I have such better command and fluidity and I know how to find openings so much better.
QuoteThis is also for another reason, I think you get more from working on footwork till it is good than you get from sparring. It is fine to spar as you develop, but IMO as I said the sparring is for the most part a quiz...that footwork, pad work, shadow boxing is the homework. You have to do the homework to do well on the quiz.
I guess this is our main point of disagreement though it really isn't by a lot. I think footwork is crucial. You have to work on footwork. But the best thing for making sure your footwork is improving and to experiment further and improve more, is sparring. You have to do shadow boxing, drills like punch step, conditioning drills where you are moving around the ring and developing the muscles. But you also got to spar. And I don't see sparring as a quiz. I see sparring as something you do as regularly as possible because yes it does test what you learned, but it is also where you learn to put to use what you have learned. Hitting a bag and hitting a man are night and day. Hitting a pad and hitting a head are night and day.
QuoteGrappling is different in this regard...many people get a ton of their development from sparring. Now this is not to say I have not seen outliers to both these things and understand they exist. IME though sparring for striking is a quiz/test and to a degree it is grappling as well its just the speed dial for grappling is much easier to turn down and still be sparring than it is for anything realistic striking wise. Even 50 percent contact with people who know what they are doing means often a pretty negative feedback loop while striking....where getting slowly submitted with a person slowly applying an armlock is not the same sort of psychological shock that having blood drip from your nose is (and for sure 50 percent power landing really clean will do this). To this end that was my main point the PRIMARY developmental tool (footwork, balance, head movement) for striking can be done alone....the primary development tool for grappling (partner drills and live rolling/sparring) can not.
Again, I can't comment on grappling much, so I am sure your commentary here is accurate in that regard, but I think you get just as much development from sparring in boxing, muay thai and even stuff like TKD.
Where I agree is grappling is easier to manage sparring. There are many many pitfalls to live sparring with striking. I have more concussion than I can remember. But I come from the hard sparring school of thought with this stuff. Rarely are you going 100% (for example an approach I often saw was something like 100% against the body but 50% against the head, assuming you are sparring someone in your weight category). But talking in percentages is important. A good instructor knows when to go down to 20% so you can experiment and learn, and knows when to crank it up so you can learn what it is like when someone is trying to hit you hard. And you have to learn to be hit hard as well. Learning to take punishment is part of boxing and muay thai.
Well I would say in terms of what is primary in striking, they are all important. But if you remove sparring, that is bigger than removing pad work. You shouldn't remove pad work either but sparring is what separates people who know how to strike and peopel who just know how to hit pads IMO
If you could spar anywhere near as often striking as you could grappling I could see where they are both as important regarding development. But you can not. And for the newer people sparring is really great for grapplers and not as valuable for striking. After a while sparring IMO become MUCH more important to an experienced trainee, but that is 1-2 years down the road for someone striking.(edited to clarify) Not to say strikers should not be sparring as soon as possible...just that as a more independent developmental tool it takes time for a trainee to get as much out of sparring as they will once their fundamentals are sound. Percentages is important...if I kick dudes to the body at 80 percent sparring is over. I like 50 percent contact with full speed. That is not "hard" sparring IMO...but harder than that... if kicking and people are going to break feet and take seats here and there. Just boxing I can say I do not go to the body at 80 percent either as I tend to try to catch that liver at the right time and it does not take 80 for me to send the message, but I can see 80 on the gut being fine for the most part. I agree a good person can dial it way down as well. I do not disagree sparring is extremely important for striking it is just less of a developmental "rung" of the ladder for striking than it is for grappling. This is largely because the mistakes in sparring are fixed with padwork/footwork and trying again. Yes a good person can adjust on the fly (usually in response to finding out your partner is faster/taller/does something funky) in real time sparring in many situations...but that is because they ALREADY had the skill to do so...not because they developed it in that moment sparring.
It feels like we agree...I think you may be taking some things I am saying as stronger than intended. Grappling is a bigger developmental tool because there is no pad work for grappling, there is no series of solo movement drills (there are to a degree....but boring as hell and development curve pretty flat). There is partner drilling and sparring and you can spar a lot more grappling than you can striking. Period. So sparring is a bigger tool for grappling than striking on that basis alone. I understand if you disagree with this...I also understand you do not know me. I could be making all this up about what I have done/can do/etc. If you take what I say in good faith though...it is looking back 3 decades as well as moving forward now and through the lens of how hundreds of different people, body types, ages, sexes, etc of people develop in these two things (grappling and striking).
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on February 27, 2024, 04:58:26 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 27, 2024, 04:30:01 PM
Regarding getting along with the BJJ crowd...they can trend towards obsessed autists and I think if I had not started training when I did (1997 for BJJ) I do not know that the current generation (or the one you speak of in 2008) would be my cup of tea. I have an advantage in that the guys I taught are all more on the old school line of thinking so I do not have to deal with the folks who can be...well a pain in the ass to get along with that are no where near as uncommon as I would like for them to be in BJJ. So I think I know what you are talking about there...from the start there was a tone of arrogance around BJJ I did not care for. Most of the guys I trained with were as new or almost as new as I was though. So in a way I didnt catch much flak for being able to box their ears or kick their heads off since I was submitting most of them at the time. But it was a time where everyone was sort of new and most places the people training there had all done something else before (Karate, TKD, kickboxing, judo, wrestled, etc) I would say the Judo club I trained with the people were MUCH more laid back than just about any BJJ place I have been (even at the place I ran I think people were wound a bit tight even though I tried to keep everyone laid back) and I guess that could be born of that old "gracie challenge" BS BJJ really got its start with in North America.
I started I think in 2000, but didn't do BJJ till probably 2004 or so. Not sure where that puts things generationally. It is hard to put into words what bothered me about BJJ places. But there was more of an engineering or math mindset if that makes sense.
Muay Thai gyms were pretty good places to train here in the 2000s. I found those easy to navigate
Quote
I think details to teaching a technique are important...but I also think most BJJ instructors waaaay over sell the importance of exact placement and technical perfection. That is especially true when teaching something new to people. IME it is a waste of time to harp on precision...now this is not to say your guy was like that...but often details are more long winded than they have to be when something gets taught to a class. I prefer to keep a warm up that revolves around a technique I want to hammer into people versus trying to nit pick too much on foot and hand placement. I will correct them when I see them try something sparring (as to me this is the best time to fix doing something wrong, the trainee wanted to do it so their interest is maxed, their acceptance to coaching/instruction will have the highest coupling of attention/emotional attachment you are going to get to marry to memory) if they were on the right path. Generally I think things stick the best for a person when they ask me a question directly about something they tried/or are attempting. I do the step in while sparring thing because the years have taught me not everyone is willing to approach me after, before, or during a class to ask a question. That said...it's OK to not train or like to train grappling. I like all of them...well at my age I am not battling for a contested takedown past 10 seconds...and think whatever gets you to train consistently is always the best choice.
I do think this was a big part of it. I would liken it to trying to learn a language and not being able to pronounce the word exactly right and just having the experience of constantly being corrected. Striking is a lot easier to imitate. And while they will refine your technique over time, and there is negative correction, it just felt different.
In the end, I realized I enjoyed striking combat sports so have stuck with those. I am not learning it for the street. I am not going to be in an MMA match, so the value to me enjoying the martial art I train in. I like the feel of kicking and punching and sparring
Oh...saying that was the mindset makes perfect sense. Autist computer programmer brains abound.
A couple pages of invested debate of footwork/footwork drills level of importance now in the rear view...back to numbers. I have been back to the bench press for a month or so and did 255x5x3 this past Sunday. Went smooth unsure if I go up 5 again for sets across or do the old 2.5 climb to slowly make sure my pectoral has nothing to hide (should be safe as we are still under incline press x5 threshold). Have just started going Standing Press again (played with seated dumbbell press for a month to rest elbows) so weight was pedestrian there. Squat was 480x5 (Breaking Parallel) and it was not too bad, had one in the tank and possibly 2 if I was willing to risk death. My son had to take a reset on his weights as he got whatever flu is flying around and it battered him pretty good for a week and left him needing a walk up on his poundage.
Am going to rotate deadlifts and power cleans back into the lifting routine in April as well as plyometric drills and sprints. Those are more for my son...but I feel silly telling him to do something I am not doing.
I've got some sandbags for the gym. Let's just say they're challenging.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 12, 2024, 08:07:50 PM
I've got some sandbags for the gym. Let's just say they're challenging.
Hah, I cleared a quarter acre of cedar over the past couple days. Let's just say I'll take any rancher/farmer and put them up against the best weightlifter/strongman...
Quote from: Brad on March 14, 2024, 02:54:25 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 12, 2024, 08:07:50 PM
I've got some sandbags for the gym. Let's just say they're challenging.
Hah, I cleared a quarter acre of cedar over the past couple days. Let's just say I'll take any rancher/farmer and put them up against the best weightlifter/strongman...
Agreed Brad.
I swung a chainsaw for 20 years. I never worked out in a gym.
But, and this is the question I'm asking myself now, what happens when you can't do that anymore. I cut 2 tanks of gas and I can't pick up my coffee cup for a week.
There has been some very good advice through this 19 pages of thread. So I'm asking for some advice.
Early 50's, heavy smoker, bad knees, bad shoulders, bad back. What exercises can I do that doesn't gibble me, but still gets the blood pumping, maybe reverse some of the damage I did when I was young and dumb?*
Ag.
*I'll take the advice with a grain of salt, I'm old enough to realize you can't sue your way through life. And yeah I know, QUIT FUCKING SMOKING, I'm working on it
Quote from: aganauton on March 24, 2024, 11:32:24 AM
Quote from: Brad on March 14, 2024, 02:54:25 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 12, 2024, 08:07:50 PM
I've got some sandbags for the gym. Let's just say they're challenging.
Hah, I cleared a quarter acre of cedar over the past couple days. Let's just say I'll take any rancher/farmer and put them up against the best weightlifter/strongman...
Agreed Brad.
I swung a chainsaw for 20 years. I never worked out in a gym.
But, and this is the question I'm asking myself now, what happens when you can't do that anymore. I cut 2 tanks of gas and I can't pick up my coffee cup for a week.
There has been some very good advice through this 19 pages of thread. So I'm asking for some advice.
Early 50's, heavy smoker, bad knees, bad shoulders, bad back. What exercises can I do that doesn't gibble me, but still gets the blood pumping, maybe reverse some of the damage I did when I was young and dumb?*
Ag.
*I'll take the advice with a grain of salt, I'm old enough to realize you can't sue your way through life. And yeah I know, QUIT FUCKING SMOKING, I'm working on it
I would say see a doctor before doing anything if you have that many issues (and they can probably tell you the healthiest choices). I would think long walks should be more manageable. Maybe do some light weight routines that you don't find too stressful.
On smoking, it is real tough to quit. I used to smoke until I got into martial arts. The only way that I was able to quit (and I tried everything) was dropping one cigarette slowly until I was only smoking one in the morning. And I kept smoking that one last cigarette for about six months. I found that worked and it almost felt like my body was reset because I tried smoking just a few months after my last cigarette and my lungs couldn't even handle it. So there was never any desire after that to go back to smoking. Not saying this will work for you, because I know how hard quitting is and how individual it is. I can't remember the exact time increment i lowered the cigarettes by (it may have been 1 a week but I was probably playing it more by ear)
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on March 24, 2024, 12:18:10 PM
Quote from: aganauton on March 24, 2024, 11:32:24 AM
Quote from: Brad on March 14, 2024, 02:54:25 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 12, 2024, 08:07:50 PM
I've got some sandbags for the gym. Let's just say they're challenging.
Hah, I cleared a quarter acre of cedar over the past couple days. Let's just say I'll take any rancher/farmer and put them up against the best weightlifter/strongman...
Agreed Brad.
I swung a chainsaw for 20 years. I never worked out in a gym.
But, and this is the question I'm asking myself now, what happens when you can't do that anymore. I cut 2 tanks of gas and I can't pick up my coffee cup for a week.
There has been some very good advice through this 19 pages of thread. So I'm asking for some advice.
Early 50's, heavy smoker, bad knees, bad shoulders, bad back. What exercises can I do that doesn't gibble me, but still gets the blood pumping, maybe reverse some of the damage I did when I was young and dumb?*
Ag.
*I'll take the advice with a grain of salt, I'm old enough to realize you can't sue your way through life. And yeah I know, QUIT FUCKING SMOKING, I'm working on it
I would say see a doctor before doing anything if you have that many issues (and they can probably tell you the healthiest choices). I would think long walks should be more manageable. Maybe do some light weight routines that you don't find too stressful.
On smoking, it is real tough to quit. I used to smoke until I got into martial arts. The only way that I was able to quit (and I tried everything) was dropping one cigarette slowly until I was only smoking one in the morning. And I kept smoking that one last cigarette for about six months. I found that worked and it almost felt like my body was reset because I tried smoking just a few months after my last cigarette and my lungs couldn't even handle it. So there was never any desire after that to go back to smoking. Not saying this will work for you, because I know how hard quitting is and how individual it is. I can't remember the exact time increment i lowered the cigarettes by (it may have been 1 a week but I was probably playing it more by ear)
I don't want to derail this thread but....
See, I started with that first smoke of the day. I've been working on delaying that. Instead of firing up while I'm still in bed, I'm up to 30 minutes. I have to wait for the coffee to brew, and half a cup of coffee before a roll a smoke.
As for talking to a doctor. Yeah, maybe, but I don't like them.
Walking yes, I do a lot of that in my current job, stairs included. I usually walk between 12 and 20 km (not sure the miles) in a 12 hour shift.
Yeah, generic terms of bad back are't really great. So, the knees, left knee, cartilidge, it's gone.....right knee, ligament damage.
Shoulders, nerve damage from dis-locating them, and then not seeking proper care. And sweet talking two different doctors into cortesone injections so I could keep working.
Back....ciatic nerve.
Quote from: aganauton on March 24, 2024, 11:32:24 AM
Quote from: Brad on March 14, 2024, 02:54:25 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 12, 2024, 08:07:50 PM
I've got some sandbags for the gym. Let's just say they're challenging.
Hah, I cleared a quarter acre of cedar over the past couple days. Let's just say I'll take any rancher/farmer and put them up against the best weightlifter/strongman...
Agreed Brad.
I swung a chainsaw for 20 years. I never worked out in a gym.
But, and this is the question I'm asking myself now, what happens when you can't do that anymore. I cut 2 tanks of gas and I can't pick up my coffee cup for a week.
There has been some very good advice through this 19 pages of thread. So I'm asking for some advice.
Early 50's, heavy smoker, bad knees, bad shoulders, bad back. What exercises can I do that doesn't gibble me, but still gets the blood pumping, maybe reverse some of the damage I did when I was young and dumb?*
Ag.
*I'll take the advice with a grain of salt, I'm old enough to realize you can't sue your way through life. And yeah I know, QUIT FUCKING SMOKING, I'm working on it
There's a reason swimming is popular, it's good with bad joints. Just wish it wasn't so freaking boring.
I just stick to long runs and some simple upper body stuff I can do at home with either the floor, a chin-up bar or some small dumbbells (you don't need a big dumbell for lat raises etc.) since I'm a cheap-ass and love listening to podcasts on long runs.
Quote from: aganauton on March 24, 2024, 11:32:24 AM
Quote from: Brad on March 14, 2024, 02:54:25 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 12, 2024, 08:07:50 PM
I've got some sandbags for the gym. Let's just say they're challenging.
Hah, I cleared a quarter acre of cedar over the past couple days. Let's just say I'll take any rancher/farmer and put them up against the best weightlifter/strongman...
Agreed Brad.
I swung a chainsaw for 20 years. I never worked out in a gym.
But, and this is the question I'm asking myself now, what happens when you can't do that anymore. I cut 2 tanks of gas and I can't pick up my coffee cup for a week.
There has been some very good advice through this 19 pages of thread. So I'm asking for some advice.
Early 50's, heavy smoker, bad knees, bad shoulders, bad back. What exercises can I do that doesn't gibble me, but still gets the blood pumping, maybe reverse some of the damage I did when I was young and dumb?*
Ag.
*I'll take the advice with a grain of salt, I'm old enough to realize you can't sue your way through life. And yeah I know, QUIT FUCKING SMOKING, I'm working on it
I agree with the doctor assessment, with a request for some sort of referral to a physical therapist/exercise specialist who can give you things to do that will work around aggravating ills you already have, and strengthen some things that tend to help with those ills. The only thing I know for sure is it will not get better without action...and though I do not care for doctors in most cases, Orthopedists tend to be the most practical and competent IMO and can give you the best options. I could not even begin to give advice without knowing what your doctor says.
Thanks Oggsmash.
I hadn't even considered getting a referral to an orthopedic specialist. Considering I spent the better part of my teenage years visiting one, it's a bit of a 'fucking dumbass' moment.
If I could pick your brain for a moment. What do you know about glucosomine, as a supplement? I had an old dog that got put on that. The difference was night and day for a couple of years.
I'm reading that it can help with old joints, with very little side effects. I'm just curious what you know about it?
Ag.
I used to take a good deal of glucosamine when I was on a mat 5-6 days a week and sparring kickboxing consistently as well. I have no idea as to the science but I do know that it and Fish oil helped me a great deal with general joint inflammation. I do not take either of those now as I have cut my mat days down drastically and I think have essentially a zero sugar/lower carb diet seems to have eliminated some of the inflammation. I have been on a strengthening kick for just over a year and a half...and honestly getting stronger has eliminated my back and knee aches pretty much entirely. How much is from getting strong again and how much is from no sugar...I can not say.
Long story short I found Glucosamine to be effective for making me feel better all around joint wise. It did take a while, about 2.5-3 weeks to fully get rolling, but it did work for me.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 25, 2024, 11:14:43 AM
I agree with the doctor assessment, with a request for some sort of referral to a physical therapist/exercise specialist who can give you things to do that will work around aggravating ills you already have, and strengthen some things that tend to help with those ills. The only thing I know for sure is it will not get better without action...and though I do not care for doctors in most cases, Orthopedists tend to be the most practical and competent IMO and can give you the best options. I could not even begin to give advice without knowing what your doctor says.
By "doctor" that means see a specialist who knows what the fuck they're talking about, not a general practitioner. GPs know fuck all about diet/nutrition or exercise/injury. All they know how to do is prescribe pills.
I'm a full instructor for reality-based self-defense (Rich Dimitri's Senshido) and military combatives.
The approach to fitness I like best (and which I deem to be most effective) is "prison calisthenics" (hundreds of reps in basic exercises like pushups, squats, dips, pullups, Navy seals, etc) and old-school isometrics.
I'll be celebrating my 54th birthday this year, but I can honestly say that I can keep up (most of the time) with students that are 10 to 20 years younger. I attribute that to the methods I'm using.
Did the BW routine for a very long time. I found it caused me more inflammation and irritation of joints than just lifting a heavy weight, especially when combined with all the articulation from training. So I suspect like many things what is best will vary from person to person.
Quote from: Matausch on April 16, 2024, 11:07:07 AMI'm a full instructor for reality-based self-defense (Rich Dimitri's Senshido) and military combatives.
The approach to fitness I like best (and which I deem to be most effective) is "prison calisthenics" (hundreds of reps in basic exercises like pushups, squats, dips, pullups, Navy seals, etc) and old-school isometrics.
I'll be celebrating my 54th birthday this year, but I can honestly say that I can keep up (most of the time) with students that are 10 to 20 years younger. I attribute that to the methods I'm using.
Congrats! I'm finally getting back into calisthenics (not just endlessly talking about it) after the Army. So, it's been forever. I power lifted for a while, but never got really strong. I'm hoping calisthenics will be a nice addition to the walking/rucking/bicycling I do. I zone out when doing cardio (I think of the best setting ideas!) and feel great the rest of the day.
I can't do shit for pushups these days, but if I stick to it I should be okay in another month or two. If not, then I'll borrow doing pushups from Pavel's writing - basically do them all the time in small increments. Greasing the groove.
My son is rolling strong again. Did a 300x5 squat yesterday and is on track to have a shot at a 4 plate 1rm DL by the end of May. I think his goal for squat is 350 1RM by end of May and it looks like he is on track to hit that too. Not bad at all for a 13 year old (he is not small though, at 5'9" and 167lbs).