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Author Topic: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!  (Read 6326 times)

KingCheops

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2021, 10:37:17 AM »
To Ratman - sorry, that wasn't meant to imply you. I was talking about people I know in real life pre-covid.

I think we're agreed here that listening to one's own doctor who knows you and treats you for health advice is a good idea.

As a pretty milquetoast and generalized statement, yeah.

Fair enough. How do we differ on specifics? Do you think listening to one's doctor is a good idea for whether to get a given vaccine? Is the answer different for covid compared to other vaccines?

Yes and yes.

The science and data for known vaccines for known diseases have been around for decades if not hundreds of years. If a family doctor, general practicioner type says to get a known vaccine, that's probably good, informed advice.

The Covid-19 mRNA vaccine was literally created last year, and only has emergency FDA approval in the face of the pandemic. You can't seek legal recourse for any unintended side effects of the mRNA vaccines.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

That in itself might give someone pause. But governments are pushing these vaccinations on everyone, worldwide. I don't expect a general practicioner, family doctor type to have an informed opinion on experimental vaccines and their unforseen consequences. Just the government line that everybody need to get vaccinated.

Canuckistan is actually looking to start removing licenses from doctors who don't toe the line:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctors-misinformation-covid-19-1.6021489

Don't say what they tell you to say and you lose your livelihood that you worked so hard for.  Doctors are a whole lot less courageous than small business owners so most will roll over.  Big Pharma's been through this song and dance plenty of times they've honed themselves in to apex predators.

HappyDaze

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2021, 11:00:15 AM »
To Ratman - sorry, that wasn't meant to imply you. I was talking about people I know in real life pre-covid.

I think we're agreed here that listening to one's own doctor who knows you and treats you for health advice is a good idea.

As a pretty milquetoast and generalized statement, yeah.

Fair enough. How do we differ on specifics? Do you think listening to one's doctor is a good idea for whether to get a given vaccine? Is the answer different for covid compared to other vaccines?

Yes and yes.

The science and data for known vaccines for known diseases have been around for decades if not hundreds of years. If a family doctor, general practicioner type says to get a known vaccine, that's probably good, informed advice.

The Covid-19 mRNA vaccine was literally created last year, and only has emergency FDA approval in the face of the pandemic. You can't seek legal recourse for any unintended side effects of the mRNA vaccines.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

That in itself might give someone pause. But governments are pushing these vaccinations on everyone, worldwide. I don't expect a general practicioner, family doctor type to have an informed opinion on experimental vaccines and their unforseen consequences. Just the government line that everybody need to get vaccinated.

Canuckistan is actually looking to start removing licenses from doctors who don't toe the line:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctors-misinformation-covid-19-1.6021489

Don't say what they tell you to say and you lose your livelihood that you worked so hard for.  Doctors are a whole lot less courageous than small business owners so most will roll over.  Big Pharma's been through this song and dance plenty of times they've honed themselves in to apex predators.
That's an interesting take on the article. It really shows how your thinking is twisted.

jhkim

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2021, 12:26:50 PM »
Don't say what they tell you to say and you lose your livelihood that you worked so hard for.  Doctors are a whole lot less courageous than small business owners so most will roll over.  Big Pharma's been through this song and dance plenty of times they've honed themselves in to apex predators.

KingCheops - This sounds like you're saying that doctors are just pawns for saying what Big Pharma tells them. Given this, how do you think that people should make medical decisions? Should they just research and decide what is best for themselves?

Mistwell

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2021, 01:09:22 PM »
These stadiums are pandering to the psychology of fear. I don't understand why a rational person would be resistant to hanging out with unvaccinated people as long as said person is themselves vaccinated.

They don't want their players infected by members of the crowd. That's all this is. The vaccinated-only sections are the ones next to the court. One player infected can cost them millions and millions of dollars, particularly since playoffs are about to start.

Quote
Perhaps they justify it because that 5% or whatever chance of catching covid is far less likely if you surround yourself with fellow five-percenters and not the unwashed masses. That kind of extreme caution can only come about in people fearful by nature or corrupted mentally by the news over the last year.

It has nothing to do with the fans in the arena. They couldn't give a shit if they get infected or not. This isn't signalling. This is purely about protecting the product, which is the players on the court, and the staff and family members and others who come in contact with them.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 01:12:35 PM by Mistwell »

jhkim

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2021, 01:21:25 PM »
How do we differ on specifics? Do you think listening to one's doctor is a good idea for whether to get a given vaccine? Is the answer different for covid compared to other vaccines?

Yes and yes.

The science and data for known vaccines for known diseases have been around for decades if not hundreds of years. If a family doctor, general practicioner type says to get a known vaccine, that's probably good, informed advice.

The Covid-19 mRNA vaccine was literally created last year, and only has emergency FDA approval in the face of the pandemic. You can't seek legal recourse for any unintended side effects of the mRNA vaccines.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

That in itself might give someone pause. But governments are pushing these vaccinations on everyone, worldwide. I don't expect a general practicioner, family doctor type to have an informed opinion on experimental vaccines and their unforseen consequences. Just the government line that everybody need to get vaccinated.

It's true that general practitioners are less informed about the newly-released vaccines than established vaccines. But the general public are even less well-informed than doctors are, and have much less background knowledge to understand news items and properly evaluate risks.

It sounds like you're saying that in the case of new and/or experimental treatments, that's when a patient should *not* listen to their doctor - because a general practitioner won't have experience with those. Is that fair?

From my view, those are the cases when I would *most* rely on a doctor's advice. The doctor has less information to go on in those case - but then so do I. I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments. My doctor has a base of much more knowledge and experience than me. For a new treatment, she may well say "I don't know" and refer me to a specialist, but it's still deciding from a grounding she has of much greater knowledge of health.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2021, 03:13:46 PM »
But muh science.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07993.pdf

Money shots:

"Most fundamentally, the groups we studied believe that science is a process, and not an institution."

"Indeed, anti-maskers often reveal themselves to be more sophisticated in their understanding of how scientific knowledge is socially constructed than their ideological adversaries, who espouse naïve realism about the “objective” truth of public health data."

"In other words, anti-maskers value unmediated access to information and privilege personal research and direct reading over “expert” interpretations."

"Its members value individual initiative and ingenuity, trusting scientific analysis only insofar as they can replicate it themselves by accessing and manipulating the data firsthand."

"They are highly reflexive about the inherently biased nature of any analysis, and resent what they view as the arrogant self-righteousness of scientific elites."

"Many of the users believe that the most important metrics are missing from government-released data."

"One user wrote: 'Coding data is a big deal—and those definitions should be offered transparently by every state. Without a national guideline—we are left with this mess'."

I can't tell if I'm being punked, or if this is a cry for help akin to POWs blinking Morse Code, or they're actually serious.

KingCheops

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2021, 03:19:11 PM »
But muh science.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07993.pdf

Money shots:

"Most fundamentally, the groups we studied believe that science is a process, and not an institution."

"Indeed, anti-maskers often reveal themselves to be more sophisticated in their understanding of how scientific knowledge is socially constructed than their ideological adversaries, who espouse naïve realism about the “objective” truth of public health data."

"In other words, anti-maskers value unmediated access to information and privilege personal research and direct reading over “expert” interpretations."

"Its members value individual initiative and ingenuity, trusting scientific analysis only insofar as they can replicate it themselves by accessing and manipulating the data firsthand."

"They are highly reflexive about the inherently biased nature of any analysis, and resent what they view as the arrogant self-righteousness of scientific elites."

"Many of the users believe that the most important metrics are missing from government-released data."

"One user wrote: 'Coding data is a big deal—and those definitions should be offered transparently by every state. Without a national guideline—we are left with this mess'."

I can't tell if I'm being punked, or if this is a cry for help akin to POWs blinking Morse Code, or they're actually serious.

It's almost like there should be some way to make sure the science is correct.  Like maybe some sort of "method" whereby transparent data and processes are scrutinized and replicated or disproved by other scientists conducting the same research.

I'm not anti-vaxx -- I've been to Egypt so I have more vaccinations than the Canadian average -- I just don't trust these junk mRNA gene therapies that we're not allowed to call gene therapies according to my "government."

Zelen

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2021, 03:31:11 PM »
I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments.

This is actually a pretty dangerous perspective and one that I think most medical professionals would caution against. All medical treatment is supposed to take place in a state of informed consent, which means that patients need to be aware of the potential benefits & drawbacks of procedures and patients always have the final say in whether to accept (or not) given treatments.

In the past I've disagreed with my doctor plenty of times over particular medications or treatments, and been proven right more often than not. Obviously there is a difference between someone like myself reading over medical info and an average person, but even assuming relative ignorance we must acknowledge doctors have a particular area of expertise, but every individual is an expert over their own body. Moreover, you undoubtedly care more about your own health than a doctor. A doctor is a wonderful resource for helping make a good decision, but a poor substitute for your own judgement.

DELETE THIS

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2021, 03:41:01 PM »
I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice

I was pretty sure before but now I know with absolute fact: you are a fucking moron. Holy shit...

Ghostmaker

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2021, 03:59:48 PM »
I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice

I was pretty sure before but now I know with absolute fact: you are a fucking moron. Holy shit...
You pay the doctor presumably for his advice, but Zelen notes, informed consent is a necessity.

If my doctor prescribed me something harmful they'd be lucky if they were only sued into oblivion.

I do tend to be somewhat... visceral in my reactions, at times.

KingCheops

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2021, 04:15:05 PM »
I've watched medication fuck up my mom, my sister, and my dad.  And that is just mental stuff not even opioids.  Luckily my family has been able to avoid that particular curse that doctors lay on people.

jhkim

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #131 on: May 11, 2021, 04:17:34 PM »
I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments.

This is actually a pretty dangerous perspective and one that I think most medical professionals would caution against. All medical treatment is supposed to take place in a state of informed consent, which means that patients need to be aware of the potential benefits & drawbacks of procedures and patients always have the final say in whether to accept (or not) given treatments.

In the past I've disagreed with my doctor plenty of times over particular medications or treatments, and been proven right more often than not. Obviously there is a difference between someone like myself reading over medical info and an average person, but even assuming relative ignorance we must acknowledge doctors have a particular area of expertise, but every individual is an expert over their own body. Moreover, you undoubtedly care more about your own health than a doctor. A doctor is a wonderful resource for helping make a good decision, but a poor substitute for your own judgement.

I'm not against either informed consent or patients doing their own research. I can see how you might read that with the snippet you quoted, but please try to read the rest of that. If I think something is wrong with my doctor's opinion, I think it is good to seek a second or third opinion and/or change doctors. Some doctors do suck, certainly.

However, I am wary if after the second and third and fourth opinion say the same as the first, someone disagrees with them all and decides on their own course of treatment. It may work out fine for some people, but I think that as a principle, it will lead to worse outcomes.

Zelen

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #132 on: May 11, 2021, 04:33:23 PM »
But muh science.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07993.pdf

I can't tell if I'm being punked, or if this is a cry for help akin to POWs blinking Morse Code, or they're actually serious.

This paper itself is a serious work of propaganda. From the language constructions it uses ("anti-maskers"), to the ludicrous injection of "white supremacy" or the "attempted coup." WTF.

It's kind of stunning to see that even ostensibly intelligent people at MIT have no self-reflection in a paper like this. They can invoke something like the Tobacco industry and how it obfuscated the harmful impact of its products for decades, failing to see they themselves are now the ones who acting as the tools of the big Money/Power interests and their work is directly targeted against the type people who eventually revealed that Tobacco industry had been cooking the books.

Shasarak

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #133 on: May 11, 2021, 04:49:06 PM »
From my view, those are the cases when I would *most* rely on a doctor's advice. The doctor has less information to go on in those case - but then so do I. I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments. My doctor has a base of much more knowledge and experience than me. For a new treatment, she may well say "I don't know" and refer me to a specialist, but it's still deciding from a grounding she has of much greater knowledge of health.

As if most patients bother to do their own research.

Most of them dont even know what the tablets are that they swallow every day.

On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

jhkim

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #134 on: May 11, 2021, 04:55:28 PM »
From my view, those are the cases when I would *most* rely on a doctor's advice. The doctor has less information to go on in those case - but then so do I. I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments. My doctor has a base of much more knowledge and experience than me. For a new treatment, she may well say "I don't know" and refer me to a specialist, but it's still deciding from a grounding she has of much greater knowledge of health.

As if most patients bother to do their own research.

Most of them dont even know what the tablets are that they swallow every day.

On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.

As with Zelen, I apologize if my bad phrasing implied otherwise. I completely agree that reading and discussing with doctors is a good idea. My disagreement comes if the patient decides against the first, second, and third opinion to handle their own treatment.