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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Spinachcat on April 06, 2021, 05:55:58 AM

Title: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Spinachcat on April 06, 2021, 05:55:58 AM
Everybody who gets the KungFlu vax needs to spread the joy by posting selfies with proof they have been blessed with the miracle vax.

Why?

Because there's this utterly hysterical trend where (a) a virtue signalling imbecile posts their vax selfie and then (b) that imbecile is soon pushing up daisies and making the world slightly less stupid.

This is just one of at least three different fun articles I've seen. Here's to the exciting new world of mRNA!
https://medicalkidnap.com/2021/04/05/italy-two-more-teachers-dead-after-astrazeneca-covid-shot/ (https://medicalkidnap.com/2021/04/05/italy-two-more-teachers-dead-after-astrazeneca-covid-shot/)

Just imagine. Healthy people are dying from an experimental vax that allegedly "protects" you from a virus with the lethal power of a nasty cold. Mathematically, only a handful of the thousands of people who magically died after getting the vax would have actually died from the CoronaChan.

And where's my sympathy for the dead? It's up your ass next to your head.

Next up...babies being born to moms who got the vax while pregnant! Who knows what tales will be told as those children grow (or not)? Who could have imagined a fast tracked vax being produced by companies immune from prosecution, but with a long history of bad acts, could ever have such terminal side f/x?

Hmm...pretty much anybody who thought about it for a few minutes.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on April 07, 2021, 06:35:19 AM
Really?

medicalkidnap.com?

Really?

If you can't tell that is a fake news site filled with conspiracy nutter bullshit, you're definitely past help.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: moonsweeper on April 07, 2021, 07:06:50 AM
Really?

medicalkidnap.com?

Really?

If you can't tell that is a fake news site filled with conspiracy nutter bullshit, you're definitely past help.

meh...people post links to CNN and the NYT all the time...
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on April 07, 2021, 09:04:55 AM
meh...people post links to CNN and the NYT all the time...

Except the site Spinachcat posted has links to actual news articles (albeit in Italian) that report exactly what is in the article...CNN and NYT are still using "anonymous sources close to the matter".
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 09:48:16 AM
Oh shit that's like all the vaccinated people there is.

Edit: Also like what is your sympathy actually worth. How many cups of coffee can I buy with it, or is it just more virtuous to have it than not.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: KingCheops on April 07, 2021, 10:25:56 AM
My google fu is terrible or else the "mainstream media" aren't admitting it...but Project Veritas just got the NYT to admit in court that they are opinion and not verifiable fact.  The video I'm watching had an opinion piece from the Washington Examiner which I imagine is not up to snuff for the resident dipshits.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on April 07, 2021, 10:39:26 AM
My google fu is terrible or else the "mainstream media" aren't admitting it...but Project Veritas just got the NYT to admit in court that they are opinion and not verifiable fact.  The video I'm watching had an opinion piece from the Washington Examiner which I imagine is not up to snuff for the resident dipshits.

If any "news" source undermines my state mandated propaganda, it's obviously false, comrade.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 10:43:00 AM
Nonsense, the NYT is a conservative bastion and enemy of the revolution. Their motion to dismiss the suit from Veritas was denied and it's good to watch the enemies of the people fight each other in this way.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 07, 2021, 11:41:04 AM
My google fu is terrible or else the "mainstream media" aren't admitting it...but Project Veritas just got the NYT to admit in court that they are opinion and not verifiable fact.  The video I'm watching had an opinion piece from the Washington Examiner which I imagine is not up to snuff for the resident dipshits.
It was a repudiation of what some like to call the 'clown nose' technique pioneered by Jon Stewart, among others. 'Oh, we're just voicing our opinions, not delivering a blatantly slanted report on something we don't like!'.

Ruling can be found here: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20518694-order_denying_motion_to_dismiss

It's one thing to deliver opinions and editorials. But the NYT article was very much in their news section, and trying to hide behind 'opinion' was just pathetic.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on April 07, 2021, 12:46:12 PM
My google fu is terrible or else the "mainstream media" aren't admitting it...but Project Veritas just got the NYT to admit in court that they are opinion and not verifiable fact.  The video I'm watching had an opinion piece from the Washington Examiner which I imagine is not up to snuff for the resident dipshits.
It was a repudiation of what some like to call the 'clown nose' technique pioneered by Jon Stewart, among others. 'Oh, we're just voicing our opinions, not delivering a blatantly slanted report on something we don't like!'.

Ruling can be found here: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20518694-order_denying_motion_to_dismiss

It's one thing to deliver opinions and editorials. But the NYT article was very much in their news section, and trying to hide behind 'opinion' was just pathetic.
It would have been even more pathetic if they had declared that no reasonable person would have believed it as their defense.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: KingCheops on April 07, 2021, 02:31:02 PM
My google fu is terrible or else the "mainstream media" aren't admitting it...but Project Veritas just got the NYT to admit in court that they are opinion and not verifiable fact.  The video I'm watching had an opinion piece from the Washington Examiner which I imagine is not up to snuff for the resident dipshits.
It was a repudiation of what some like to call the 'clown nose' technique pioneered by Jon Stewart, among others. 'Oh, we're just voicing our opinions, not delivering a blatantly slanted report on something we don't like!'.

Ruling can be found here: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20518694-order_denying_motion_to_dismiss

It's one thing to deliver opinions and editorials. But the NYT article was very much in their news section, and trying to hide behind 'opinion' was just pathetic.

Also dodgy AF for one of the two papers of record.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 07, 2021, 04:00:00 PM
My google fu is terrible or else the "mainstream media" aren't admitting it...but Project Veritas just got the NYT to admit in court that they are opinion and not verifiable fact.  The video I'm watching had an opinion piece from the Washington Examiner which I imagine is not up to snuff for the resident dipshits.
It was a repudiation of what some like to call the 'clown nose' technique pioneered by Jon Stewart, among others. 'Oh, we're just voicing our opinions, not delivering a blatantly slanted report on something we don't like!'.

Ruling can be found here: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20518694-order_denying_motion_to_dismiss

It's one thing to deliver opinions and editorials. But the NYT article was very much in their news section, and trying to hide behind 'opinion' was just pathetic.

Also dodgy AF for one of the two papers of record.
The NYT has been shit for a while. I'll start taking them seriously again when they return Walter Duranty's Pulitzer.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 04:39:26 PM
My google fu is terrible or else the "mainstream media" aren't admitting it...but Project Veritas just got the NYT to admit in court that they are opinion and not verifiable fact.  The video I'm watching had an opinion piece from the Washington Examiner which I imagine is not up to snuff for the resident dipshits.
It was a repudiation of what some like to call the 'clown nose' technique pioneered by Jon Stewart, among others. 'Oh, we're just voicing our opinions, not delivering a blatantly slanted report on something we don't like!'.

Ruling can be found here: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20518694-order_denying_motion_to_dismiss

It's one thing to deliver opinions and editorials. But the NYT article was very much in their news section, and trying to hide behind 'opinion' was just pathetic.
It would have been even more pathetic if they had declared that no reasonable person would have believed it as their defense.

Ah yes, the famous Rachel Maddow defense.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Garry G on April 07, 2021, 06:44:36 PM
Spinachcat mat sound insane but there's some truth behind those crazed ramblings. There's been an ongoing concern in EU countries regarding the AZ with governments stopping the use of it. Up until this week the UK Brexit nutters have said that it's just the EU hating Britain because reasons but now it's being questioned for under 30's.

So there's no real government cover-up, most involved  governments seem to have taken it seriously, just some weird nationalism from the UK government and it's being investigated. It's actually old news. The general consensus is that vaccination remains a good thing and anti-vaxxers like Spinachcat are nutters.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2021, 08:00:53 PM
Spinachcat mat sound insane but there's some truth behind those crazed ramblings. There's been an ongoing concern in EU countries regarding the AZ with governments stopping the use of it. Up until this week the UK Brexit nutters have said that it's just the EU hating Britain because reasons but now it's being questioned for under 30's.

So there's no real government cover-up, most involved  governments seem to have taken it seriously, just some weird nationalism from the UK government and it's being investigated. It's actually old news. The general consensus is that vaccination remains a good thing and anti-vaxxers like Spinachcat are nutters.

Vaccination IS a good thing...

Being used as a guinea pig without economic gain, with the pharmaceutical having total immunity not so much.

Just to be clear, not a single one of the vaccines has completed their tests and trials before being deployed for mass use.

You don't need to be an anti-vaxxer to think this might not be a good thing or that there might be serious side effects down the line.

But you do need to be a dunce to think all is hunky dory and the government would never lie nor would the big corporations selling half assed products as if it were fully developed and tested ones.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: KingCheops on April 07, 2021, 09:02:24 PM
Spinachcat mat sound insane but there's some truth behind those crazed ramblings. There's been an ongoing concern in EU countries regarding the AZ with governments stopping the use of it. Up until this week the UK Brexit nutters have said that it's just the EU hating Britain because reasons but now it's being questioned for under 30's.

So there's no real government cover-up, most involved  governments seem to have taken it seriously, just some weird nationalism from the UK government and it's being investigated. It's actually old news. The general consensus is that vaccination remains a good thing and anti-vaxxers like Spinachcat are nutters.


Vaccination IS a good thing...

Being used as a guinea pig without economic gain, with the pharmaceutical having total immunity not so much.

Just to be clear, not a single one of the vaccines has completed their tests and trials before being deployed for mass use.

You don't need to be an anti-vaxxer to think this might not be a good thing or that there might be serious side effects down the line.

But you do need to be a dunce to think all is hunky dory and the government would never lie nor would the big corporations selling half assed products as if it were fully developed and tested ones.

I mean if my family could sue and get the George Floyd payday for one of us dying from their dodgy vaccines then sure.  If we just all have to literally die at the altar of Pharma profits then no thanks.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: SHARK on April 07, 2021, 09:26:35 PM
Spinachcat mat sound insane but there's some truth behind those crazed ramblings. There's been an ongoing concern in EU countries regarding the AZ with governments stopping the use of it. Up until this week the UK Brexit nutters have said that it's just the EU hating Britain because reasons but now it's being questioned for under 30's.

So there's no real government cover-up, most involved  governments seem to have taken it seriously, just some weird nationalism from the UK government and it's being investigated. It's actually old news. The general consensus is that vaccination remains a good thing and anti-vaxxers like Spinachcat are nutters.

Vaccination IS a good thing...

Being used as a guinea pig without economic gain, with the pharmaceutical having total immunity not so much.

Just to be clear, not a single one of the vaccines has completed their tests and trials before being deployed for mass use.

You don't need to be an anti-vaxxer to think this might not be a good thing or that there might be serious side effects down the line.

But you do need to be a dunce to think all is hunky dory and the government would never lie nor would the big corporations selling half assed products as if it were fully developed and tested ones.

Greetings!

Exactly, Geeky! As usual, you and I are on the same page.

I haven't gotten the fucking vaccine, and do not intend to, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. I also haven't gotten the damned Flu vaccination, either. When I was in the Corps, I got shots and juices for all kinds of viruses and diseases.

That was plenty, I can tell you. *laughing*

Nowadays, I just work through the Flu or Bronchitis, which is usually what I end up getting, because yeah, I have permanently weakened lungs from getting severe Pneumonia...when I was in the Corps. I'm just not worried about the Flu, Bronchitis, or the China virus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2021, 09:53:44 PM

Spinachcat mat sound insane but there's some truth behind those crazed ramblings. There's been an ongoing concern in EU countries regarding the AZ with governments stopping the use of it. Up until this week the UK Brexit nutters have said that it's just the EU hating Britain because reasons but now it's being questioned for under 30's.

So there's no real government cover-up, most involved  governments seem to have taken it seriously, just some weird nationalism from the UK government and it's being investigated. It's actually old news. The general consensus is that vaccination remains a good thing and anti-vaxxers like Spinachcat are nutters.

Vaccination IS a good thing...

Being used as a guinea pig without economic gain, with the pharmaceutical having total immunity not so much.

Just to be clear, not a single one of the vaccines has completed their tests and trials before being deployed for mass use.

You don't need to be an anti-vaxxer to think this might not be a good thing or that there might be serious side effects down the line.

But you do need to be a dunce to think all is hunky dory and the government would never lie nor would the big corporations selling half assed products as if it were fully developed and tested ones.

I mean if my family could sue and get the George Floyd payday for one of us dying from their dodgy vaccines then sure.  If we just all have to literally die at the altar of Pharma profits then no thanks.

Exactly, I nor my family can sue either the pharmaceutical nor the government, one because was granted immunity by the second and the other because "EMERGENCY!"

Greetings!

Exactly, Geeky! As usual, you and I are on the same page.

I haven't gotten the fucking vaccine, and do not intend to, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. I also haven't gotten the damned Flu vaccination, either. When I was in the Corps, I got shots and juices for all kinds of viruses and diseases.

That was plenty, I can tell you. *laughing*

Nowadays, I just work through the Flu or Bronchitis, which is usually what I end up getting, because yeah, I have permanently weakened lungs from getting severe Pneumonia...when I was in the Corps. I'm just not worried about the Flu, Bronchitis, or the China virus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well, I mean, if you're on the at risk population, meaning over 65 and with co-morbidity...

Else, fuck them in the *
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 10:38:16 PM
I guess that means there is more Trump vaccine for me then.

Of course the way that the stupid ass government is rolling things out, that will be in six months.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2021, 11:01:12 PM
Womp, womp.

Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on April 07, 2021, 11:24:30 PM
Womp, womp.



Damn dude that's fucked up why would you link that.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Snowman0147 on April 08, 2021, 01:07:24 PM
The video is unavailable Geeky.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 08, 2021, 04:20:13 PM
The video is unavailable Geeky.

Try using a vpn, I can see it just fine.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on April 08, 2021, 04:35:02 PM
The general consensus

Consensus
Science

Pick one
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Garry G on April 08, 2021, 04:36:22 PM
The scientific consensus
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on April 08, 2021, 04:55:13 PM
The scientific consensus

Oh so Galileo was wrong? I mean, consensus and all that.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Garry G on April 08, 2021, 05:05:06 PM
I haven't checked the Churches opinion.

Actually I'm being unfair. Are you saying that Spinachcat is the Galileo of anti-vaxxers? That he's fighting against those not using the scientific method?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on April 08, 2021, 05:43:26 PM
I haven't checked the Churches opinion.

Actually I'm being unfair. Are you saying that Spinachcat is the Galileo of anti-vaxxers? That he's fighting against those not using the scientific method?

Imagine posting this and expecting to be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on April 08, 2021, 05:55:57 PM
The scientific consensus

Oh so Galileo was wrong? I mean, consensus and all that.

Galileo was right about many things, and he was wrong about a few as well. Likewise, the current scientific consensus has been wrong about things in the past. Science isn't perfect.

But historically, the scientific mainstream has always been correct *vastly* more often than fringe scientists who claim that it's all a hoax. Of course, each time, the fringe scientists will say "Well, mainstream science has been right *before* but this time it's different." That's been true in every decade, whether it's the 1890s or the 1960s or now.

Back in the 1960s, the leftists hippies were all about saying how science was just a tool for "The Man" to fool the populace. And in a handful of cases, maybe they were right. But overall, they were hugely wrong.

Specifically for the case of covid-19, it's something where governments and scientists of vastly different countries all agree on most points - from Israel to Germany to Brazil to South Korea to the U.S. Imagining that all of those governments would cooperate together on a hoax seems quite a stretch.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on April 08, 2021, 06:12:01 PM
Specifically for the case of covid-19, it's something where governments and scientists of vastly different countries all agree on most points - from Israel to Germany to Brazil to South Korea to the U.S. Imagining that all of those governments would cooperate together on a hoax seems quite a stretch.
You're conflating governments and scientists. They're not the same thing. Covid-19 is a good of example of how governments imposed mandates that were against the scientific consensus.

And there's no need to hypothesize any kind of secretive cabal. Governments all tend to act in ways that increase their power. They do this independently, on their own. They also, particularly but not exclusively in democratic countries, feel immense pressure to "do something" when there's a crisis. This is a relatively new phenomenon, only going back about a century. Politicians also tend to suffer severe negative consequences if they underreact, and no negative consequences if they overreact. This encourages them to push through strong measures, regardless of their efficacy.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on April 08, 2021, 06:22:15 PM
Specifically for the case of covid-19, it's something where governments and scientists of vastly different countries all agree on most points - from Israel to Germany to Brazil to South Korea to the U.S. Imagining that all of those governments would cooperate together on a hoax seems quite a stretch.
You're conflating governments and scientists. They're not the same thing. Covid-19 is a good of example of how governments imposed mandates that were against the scientific consensus.

And there's no need to hypothesize any kind of secretive cabal. Governments all tend to act in ways that increase their power. They do this independently, on their own.

I'm not conflating -- I'm saying that they *mostly* agree. There are cases of differences between government and scientists and differences between different countries, but not on the scale that the OP is talking about. Spinachcat's claim from the OP is:

This is just one of at least three different fun articles I've seen. Here's to the exciting new world of mRNA!
https://medicalkidnap.com/2021/04/05/italy-two-more-teachers-dead-after-astrazeneca-covid-shot/ (https://medicalkidnap.com/2021/04/05/italy-two-more-teachers-dead-after-astrazeneca-covid-shot/)

Just imagine. Healthy people are dying from an experimental vax that allegedly "protects" you from a virus with the lethal power of a nasty cold. Mathematically, only a handful of the thousands of people who magically died after getting the vax would have actually died from the CoronaChan.


Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on April 08, 2021, 06:29:07 PM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.
I don't dispute that, but those are both very mild statements. It's been the specific responses where, to be as generous as possible, the government actions have been extraordinarily speculative based on zero or negative indications in the science. Or to be more honest, they've lied through their teeth and used a crisis to grab attention and power, even when that caused immense harm.

Though even the government line on the vaccines tends to be very misleading.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Garry G on April 08, 2021, 06:52:39 PM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.
I don't dispute that, but those are both very mild statements. It's been the specific responses where, to be as generous as possible, the government actions have been extraordinarily speculative based on zero or negative indications in the science. Or to be more honest, they've lied through their teeth and used a crisis to grab attention and power, even when that caused immense harm.

Though even the government line on the vaccines tends to be very misleading.

This hasn't been my experience with the UK government. They started by downplaying the issue and only went into lockdown at a late point, after asking politely for people to not go to the pub so much. They lifted the lockdown as soon as possible and encouraged people to eat out to help out which may have exacerbated a second wave. There was then an opening up for Christmas which had a possible negative effect.

The AZ vaccine issue is interesting in itself. Up until this week it was the Oxford AZ vaccine and a sign of British exceptionalism. When weeks ago EU countries stopped using it due to concerns about blood clots it was framed as a Brexit issue and a problem with the EU.

Now this is a government with a massive parliamentary majority that can push through pretty much anything it likes, indeed their recent bill regarding protests is draconian, but the reaction to covid has been confused and bumbling. The parliamentary party itself has been divided.

It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on April 08, 2021, 07:03:41 PM
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on April 08, 2021, 07:13:00 PM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

I don't dispute that, but those are both very mild statements. It's been the specific responses where, to be as generous as possible, the government actions have been extraordinarily speculative based on zero or negative indications in the science. Or to be more honest, they've lied through their teeth and used a crisis to grab attention and power, even when that caused immense harm.

Though even the government line on the vaccines tends to be very misleading.

I was trying to stay on topic to the OP from Spinachcat. If you want to bring up particular government actions, could you clarify which you're talking about for the topic?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Garry G on April 08, 2021, 07:15:13 PM
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

So politicians tend to overreact except for when they underreact in the explicit circumstance we're talking about?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on April 08, 2021, 07:20:28 PM
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

So politicians tend to overreact except for when they underreact in the explicit circumstance we're talking about?
People are complex. But you know that, because unless we're being invaded by ETs or AI has suddenly gotten a lot better than anyone imagined, you're human, and thus you know that when we talk about the behavior of groups we're talking about tendencies that manifest in different ways, not simplistic absolutes that always apply in every case. So it's pretty clear you're not even trying to address the issues I've raised.

Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Garry G on April 08, 2021, 07:32:34 PM
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

So politicians tend to overreact except for when they underreact in the explicit circumstance we're talking about?
People are complex. But you know that, because unless we're being invaded by ETs or AI has suddenly gotten a lot better than anyone imagined, you're human, and thus you know that when we talk about the behavior of groups we're talking about tendencies that manifest in different ways, not simplistic absolutes that always apply in every case. So it's pretty clear you're not even trying to address the issues I've raised.

The subject raised was whether there was a planned worldwide conspiracy by numerous disparate countries. You stated that this isn't needed as governments tend to try to increase their power and be seen to do something, also that politicians do this because they don't want to be seen to underreact so strong measures would be put through.

I gave a real world example of a government that has done the exact opposite in the circumstances we're talking about, in regards to the vaccine we're talking about no less, and it's me not addressing the issues. Broad statements are great with hypothetical but this isn't a hypothetical situation.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on April 08, 2021, 07:34:20 PM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

I don't dispute that, but those are both very mild statements. It's been the specific responses where, to be as generous as possible, the government actions have been extraordinarily speculative based on zero or negative indications in the science. Or to be more honest, they've lied through their teeth and used a crisis to grab attention and power, even when that caused immense harm.

Though even the government line on the vaccines tends to be very misleading.

I was trying to stay on topic to the OP from Spinachcat. If you want to bring up particular government actions, could you clarify which you're talking about for the topic?
If I wanted to bring up specific government actions, I would have done so, wouldn't I? You made a false general statement, I replied at that level. We've already rehashed the specifics ad nauseum in the main covid thread.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on April 08, 2021, 07:41:38 PM
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

So politicians tend to overreact except for when they underreact in the explicit circumstance we're talking about?
People are complex. But you know that, because unless we're being invaded by ETs or AI has suddenly gotten a lot better than anyone imagined, you're human, and thus you know that when we talk about the behavior of groups we're talking about tendencies that manifest in different ways, not simplistic absolutes that always apply in every case. So it's pretty clear you're not even trying to address the issues I've raised.

The subject raised was whether there was a planned worldwide conspiracy by numerous disparate countries. You stated that this isn't needed as governments tend to try to increase their power and be seen to do something, also that politicians do this because they don't want to be seen to underreact so strong measures would be put through.

I gave a real world example of a government that has done the exact opposite in the circumstances we're talking about, in regards to the vaccine we're talking about no less, and it's me not addressing the issues. Broad statements are great with hypothetical but this isn't a hypothetical situation.
You're treating behavioral tendencies as a mathematical proof. That if there is one single counter example, you have to throw it all out. Worse than that, you're not even basing it on a real counter example, just an apparent counterexample based on an overly simplistic reading.

That's utter nonsense. It's such nonsense, that either you've gotten lost in some kind of adversarial mindset and no longer realize what you're saying, or you're arguing under false pretenses, in the hopes that people following along are reading so superficially they might think you have a point.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Garry G on April 08, 2021, 08:09:15 PM
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

So politicians tend to overreact except for when they underreact in the explicit circumstance we're talking about?
People are complex. But you know that, because unless we're being invaded by ETs or AI has suddenly gotten a lot better than anyone imagined, you're human, and thus you know that when we talk about the behavior of groups we're talking about tendencies that manifest in different ways, not simplistic absolutes that always apply in every case. So it's pretty clear you're not even trying to address the issues I've raised.

The subject raised was whether there was a planned worldwide conspiracy by numerous disparate countries. You stated that this isn't needed as governments tend to try to increase their power and be seen to do something, also that politicians do this because they don't want to be seen to underreact so strong measures would be put through.

I gave a real world example of a government that has done the exact opposite in the circumstances we're talking about, in regards to the vaccine we're talking about no less, and it's me not addressing the issues. Broad statements are great with hypothetical but this isn't a hypothetical situation.
You're treating behavioral tendencies as a mathematical proof. That if there is one single counter example, you have to throw it all out. Worse than that, you're not even basing it on a real counter example, just an apparent counterexample based on an overly simplistic reading.

That's utter nonsense. It's such nonsense, that either you've gotten lost in some kind of adversarial mindset and no longer realize what you're saying, or you're arguing under false pretenses, in the hopes that people following along are reading so superficially they might think you have a point.

Is say the same of you. Looking at many governments reactions to covid I just don't see your thesis at work. You're presenting stuff as self-evident in the hope that people will accept it and just go along. Anecdotal evidence on what any government does is all there really is in this situation. I'm sorry that I can't accept your rather airy fairy assertions as something handed down from on high.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on April 08, 2021, 08:13:40 PM
Is say the same of you. Looking at many governments reactions to covid I just don't see your thesis at work. You're presenting stuff as self-evident in the hope that people will accept it and just go along. Anecdotal evidence on what any government does is all there really is in this situation. I'm sorry that I can't accept your rather airy fairy assertions as something handed down from on high.
Then how do you address general tendencies or human behavior? Say it doesn't happen unless you have objective proof and no contradicting evidence? That's not a functional stand. We can talk about motivations and tendencies, disagree with them, and critique them; those are all valid. But you're simply dismissing them using standards that throw away the possibility of even discussing them.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on April 08, 2021, 11:03:03 PM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on April 09, 2021, 01:44:56 AM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.

The spouse I invented in my head has an immunodeficiency, so the vax at home is mandatory.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on April 09, 2021, 05:08:25 AM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.

The spouse I invented in my head has an immunodeficiency, so the vax at home is mandatory.

I just imagined that you got the vaccine so your spouse is going to be OK!
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on April 09, 2021, 06:08:41 AM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.
I am aware of at least seven healthcare workers that I have worked alongside that have died in the last year from Covid. The youngest was 36, the oldest 61. These are people that I knew by name and interacted with, not just names on a list. In the case of three of them, I have met their families as well. I am only aware of one similar death in the last 10 years from the flu (back in 2016), and none from a cold in that time.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Garry G on April 09, 2021, 06:28:02 AM
Is say the same of you. Looking at many governments reactions to covid I just don't see your thesis at work. You're presenting stuff as self-evident in the hope that people will accept it and just go along. Anecdotal evidence on what any government does is all there really is in this situation. I'm sorry that I can't accept your rather airy fairy assertions as something handed down from on high.
Then how do you address general tendencies or human behavior? Say it doesn't happen unless you have objective proof and no contradicting evidence? That's not a functional stand. We can talk about motivations and tendencies, disagree with them, and critique them; those are all valid. But you're simply dismissing them using standards that throw away the possibility of even discussing them.

At some point claims to general tendencies have to be tested against real world examples. If the claims are made in a conversation about a specific thing then they should be tested against it.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on April 09, 2021, 09:42:00 AM
Is say the same of you. Looking at many governments reactions to covid I just don't see your thesis at work. You're presenting stuff as self-evident in the hope that people will accept it and just go along. Anecdotal evidence on what any government does is all there really is in this situation. I'm sorry that I can't accept your rather airy fairy assertions as something handed down from on high.
Then how do you address general tendencies or human behavior? Say it doesn't happen unless you have objective proof and no contradicting evidence? That's not a functional stand. We can talk about motivations and tendencies, disagree with them, and critique them; those are all valid. But you're simply dismissing them using standards that throw away the possibility of even discussing them.

At some point claims to general tendencies have to be tested against real world examples. If the claims are made in a conversation about a specific thing then they should be tested against it.
I don't have any problem with that statement in general, but anecdotes are a poor stand-in for statistics. When we're talking about the Brownian motion of large groups of human-particles, the test should involve looking at the aggregate behavior of the crowd, not looking for outliers.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Garry G on April 09, 2021, 10:26:22 AM
Is say the same of you. Looking at many governments reactions to covid I just don't see your thesis at work. You're presenting stuff as self-evident in the hope that people will accept it and just go along. Anecdotal evidence on what any government does is all there really is in this situation. I'm sorry that I can't accept your rather airy fairy assertions as something handed down from on high.
Then how do you address general tendencies or human behavior? Say it doesn't happen unless you have objective proof and no contradicting evidence? That's not a functional stand. We can talk about motivations and tendencies, disagree with them, and critique them; those are all valid. But you're simply dismissing them using standards that throw away the possibility of even discussing them.

At some point claims to general tendencies have to be tested against real world examples. If the claims are made in a conversation about a specific thing then they should be tested against it.
I don't have any problem with that statement in general, but anecdotes are a poor stand-in for statistics. When we're talking about the Brownian motion of large groups of human-particles, the test should involve looking at the aggregate behavior of the crowd, not looking for outliers.

Claims of general tendencies of state actors are a poor substitute for the actual actions of a given state. The way an actual government governs Trumps any theorising.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on April 09, 2021, 10:36:59 AM
Claims of general tendencies of state actors are a poor substitute for the actual actions of a given state. The way an actual government governs Trumps any theorising.
Then you just end up with a list of actions, without an explanation for those actions. But I think we've probably drifted too far into making general statements about general statements.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on April 09, 2021, 10:52:28 AM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.

The spouse I invented in my head has an immunodeficiency, so the vax at home is mandatory.

I just imagined that you got the vaccine so your spouse is going to be OK!

So this is the power of role-playing..
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Garry G on April 09, 2021, 11:07:37 AM
Claims of general tendencies of state actors are a poor substitute for the actual actions of a given state. The way an actual government governs Trumps any theorising.
Then you just end up with a list of actions, without an explanation for those actions. But I think we've probably drifted too far into making general statements about general statements.

I'd argue that a discussion about actual actions is more productive than ivory Tower thinking about how we think states act. I also agree that we're talking in circles.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on April 09, 2021, 02:08:36 PM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for everyone. covid-19 is extremely deadly to seniors, but it's still severe and sometimes deadly to adults of any age - much more lethal than the common cold in every age bracket. We don't even need to consider classification that is disputed. Just look at the overall mortality of 2020 compared to other years. The under-65 group still has a very elevated mortality. There are a huge number of increased deaths.

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/covid/us-mortality-change-by-age.png)
Source: https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

This is shown as a percentage compared to previous years. As a percentage, the rate has gone up highly for all age ranges. The absolute lethality of covid is highest for 85+, but they already have a high death rate.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on April 09, 2021, 02:41:17 PM
We don't even need to consider classification that is disputed. Just look at the overall mortality of 2020 compared to other years. The under-65 group still has a very elevated mortality. There are a huge number of increased deaths.
Funny how an elevated death rate corresponds with a surge of homicides, suicides, deaths of despair, and people avoiding hospitals and thus not catching diseases early enough or missing treatments.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Melichor on April 09, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
Source: https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

Do you have any links to the raw data?
Because I doubt that the site you are citing is unbiased and without an agenda.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on April 09, 2021, 04:33:36 PM
Source: https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

Do you have any links to the raw data?
Because I doubt that the site you are citing is unbiased and without an agenda.

Also biased based on collection method.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on April 09, 2021, 04:58:11 PM
Source: https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

Do you have any links to the raw data?
Because I doubt that the site you are citing is unbiased and without an agenda.

Sure. The data is collected in an open-source project that I link below. You can examine the sources for various countries, which links to the sources. The ultimate source for the U.S. data is the CDC. Here's the open-source project:

https://github.com/akarlinsky/world_mortality

Here's the CDC page on the mortality data:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm


I presented for the U.S. - but there is data for many different countries. Note that the mortality rates for different countries vary significantly, but essentially *all* countries agree that covid-19 is a deadly pandemic with a death rate much higher than the common cold or the flu. That goes from Brazil to Italy to Sweden to Israel to South Korea.

It would be a remarkable feat of international cooperation if all of these countries were to get their scientists in line and have them report a hoax for political reasons, given their differing politics.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on April 09, 2021, 05:10:34 PM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.
I am aware of at least seven healthcare workers that I have worked alongside that have died in the last year from Covid. The youngest was 36, the oldest 61. These are people that I knew by name and interacted with, not just names on a list. In the case of three of them, I have met their families as well. I am only aware of one similar death in the last 10 years from the flu (back in 2016), and none from a cold in that time.

What about the people that you were not aware of?  How many of them died from the Flu?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on April 09, 2021, 05:29:46 PM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for everyone. covid-19 is extremely deadly to seniors, but it's still severe and sometimes deadly to adults of any age - much more lethal than the common cold in every age bracket. We don't even need to consider classification that is disputed. Just look at the overall mortality of 2020 compared to other years. The under-65 group still has a very elevated mortality. There are a huge number of increased deaths.

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/covid/us-mortality-change-by-age.png)
Source: https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

This is shown as a percentage compared to previous years. As a percentage, the rate has gone up highly for all age ranges. The absolute lethality of covid is highest for 85+, but they already have a high death rate.

According to my sources the mean weekly death rate was 11% lower during 2020 then compared to the 2015-2019 average.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32647-7/fulltext
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 09, 2021, 05:38:25 PM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for everyone. covid-19 is extremely deadly to seniors, but it's still severe and sometimes deadly to adults of any age - much more lethal than the common cold in every age bracket. We don't even need to consider classification that is disputed. Just look at the overall mortality of 2020 compared to other years. The under-65 group still has a very elevated mortality. There are a huge number of increased deaths.

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/covid/us-mortality-change-by-age.png)
Source: https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

This is shown as a percentage compared to previous years. As a percentage, the rate has gone up highly for all age ranges. The absolute lethality of covid is highest for 85+, but they already have a high death rate.

Ages 15-64 but then it's separated by 10 years...

Me thinks this chart was crafted to inflate the number of the younger victims. To make it appear to the smoothbrains like people below 54 are just as much in danger as those above 55.

But then again I'm just a "conspiracy theorist" according to the left.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 09, 2021, 05:39:34 PM
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.
I am aware of at least seven healthcare workers that I have worked alongside that have died in the last year from Covid. The youngest was 36, the oldest 61. These are people that I knew by name and interacted with, not just names on a list. In the case of three of them, I have met their families as well. I am only aware of one similar death in the last 10 years from the flu (back in 2016), and none from a cold in that time.

What about the people that you were not aware of?  How many of them died from the Flu?

None, because the kungflu magically displaced every other respiratory disease.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on April 09, 2021, 05:46:55 PM
covid-19 is extremely deadly to seniors, but it's still severe and sometimes deadly to adults of any age - much more lethal than the common cold in every age bracket. We don't even need to consider classification that is disputed. Just look at the overall mortality of 2020 compared to other years. The under-65 group still has a very elevated mortality. There are a huge number of increased deaths.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

This is shown as a percentage compared to previous years. As a percentage, the rate has gone up highly for all age ranges. The absolute lethality of covid is highest for 85+, but they already have a high death rate.

According to my sources the mean weekly death rate was 11% lower during 2020 then compared to the 2015-2019 average.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32647-7/fulltext

That's for New Zealand, not the United States. If you go to my link and switch countries to "New Zealand", you'll see the corresponding age data. New Zealand took very strict controls early on to prevent the spread of covid-19, and has had only around 2000 known infections ever.

Below is what your link says, though the highlighting is mine.

Quote
First, according to data collated in The Economist, New Zealand's reduction in mortality contrasts with the international experience of excess mortality during the COVID-19 pandemic. Second, the reduction in deaths is substantive. Across weeks 13–42 (ie, during and after lockdown), the mean weekly death rate was 11% lower than in 2015–19 (123·4 deaths per million population vs 138·5 deaths per million population, p<0·0001).

More on New Zealand:

https://www.contagionlive.com/view/how-did-new-zealand-control-covid19
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 09, 2021, 06:08:32 PM
You guys should take very seriously everything the CDC says

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-says-racism-serious-threat-public-health-n1263547 (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-says-racism-serious-threat-public-health-n1263547)
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on April 09, 2021, 06:52:34 PM
covid-19 is extremely deadly to seniors, but it's still severe and sometimes deadly to adults of any age - much more lethal than the common cold in every age bracket. We don't even need to consider classification that is disputed. Just look at the overall mortality of 2020 compared to other years. The under-65 group still has a very elevated mortality. There are a huge number of increased deaths.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

This is shown as a percentage compared to previous years. As a percentage, the rate has gone up highly for all age ranges. The absolute lethality of covid is highest for 85+, but they already have a high death rate.

According to my sources the mean weekly death rate was 11% lower during 2020 then compared to the 2015-2019 average.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32647-7/fulltext

That's for New Zealand, not the United States. If you go to my link and switch countries to "New Zealand", you'll see the corresponding age data. New Zealand took very strict controls early on to prevent the spread of covid-19, and has had only around 2000 known infections ever.

Below is what your link says, though the highlighting is mine.

Quote
First, according to data collated in The Economist, New Zealand's reduction in mortality contrasts with the international experience of excess mortality during the COVID-19 pandemic. Second, the reduction in deaths is substantive. Across weeks 13–42 (ie, during and after lockdown), the mean weekly death rate was 11% lower than in 2015–19 (123·4 deaths per million population vs 138·5 deaths per million population, p<0·0001).

More on New Zealand:

https://www.contagionlive.com/view/how-did-new-zealand-control-covid19

Of course it is from New Zealand.  Maybe if you guys had tries using masks and lock downs then you could have gotten a 11% death reduction as well.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 13, 2021, 09:19:33 PM
Womp, womp, womp.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on April 16, 2021, 10:18:52 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/pfizer-ceo-says-third-covid-vaccine-dose-likely-needed-within-12-months.html

And then an annual one until you die, right?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: RandyB on April 16, 2021, 11:28:53 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/pfizer-ceo-says-third-covid-vaccine-dose-likely-needed-within-12-months.html

And then an annual one until you die, right?

Shouldn't take many.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Trinculoisdead on April 20, 2021, 12:29:34 AM
Womp, womp, womp.
In the UK. For us US-people, were the deaths recorded in the same manner? If so, we should have the same miscalculations here. This is nowhere near the 6% figure that some people were circulating last year, but dropping the total from 582k to 438k is not insignificant.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 01:37:23 AM
Womp, womp, womp.
In the UK. For us US-people, were the deaths recorded in the same manner? If so, we should have the same miscalculations here. This is nowhere near the 6% figure that some people were circulating last year, but dropping the total from 582k to 438k is not insignificant.

You don't know, and if the powers that be get their wishes you'll never know.

Here in México, I know first hand of 3 cases recorded as Kung-Flu deaths that weren't:

Cancer, Heart attack and a bullet to the head.

But they were cremating the bodies of those recorded as Kung-Flu deaths, so WE will never know, we won't have a way to do an audit.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Thor's Nads on April 20, 2021, 03:54:17 AM
Really?
medicalkidnap.com?
Really?
If you can't tell that is a fake news site filled with conspiracy nutter bullshit, you're definitely past help.

Yeah, it's all nutty conspiracy theory until years later it turns out to be true. Like McCarthy seeing communists every where...because there were!

Now, I don't know anything about medicalkidnap.com they may be nutters, I file that kind of stuff in the part of my brain that says maybe/maybe not.  I'm just saying.

Certainly, this vaccine was rushed. Problems are being reported. I'm still going to get one, I'm no anti-vaxxer though I want the J&J once it is cleared again.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: SHARK on April 20, 2021, 03:30:00 PM
Really?
medicalkidnap.com?
Really?
If you can't tell that is a fake news site filled with conspiracy nutter bullshit, you're definitely past help.

Yeah, it's all nutty conspiracy theory until years later it turns out to be true. Like McCarthy seeing communists every where...because there were!

Now, I don't know anything about medicalkidnap.com they may be nutters, I file that kind of stuff in the part of my brain that says maybe/maybe not.  I'm just saying.

Certainly, this vaccine was rushed. Problems are being reported. I'm still going to get one, I'm no anti-vaxxer though I want the J&J once it is cleared again.

Greetings!

That's right. Always remember--Senator McCarthy was RIGHT! He was a patriot, and a true American hero, trying to save America from the cock-sucking Communists.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on April 20, 2021, 03:39:17 PM
McCarthy never had an opinion Roy Cohn didn't fuck into him.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on April 22, 2021, 09:29:33 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/pfizer-ceo-says-third-covid-vaccine-dose-likely-needed-within-12-months.html

And then an annual one until you die, right?

Shouldn't take many.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/annual-covid-19-vaccine-booster-shots-likely-needed-pfizer-ceo-says-11618520527

Guessing Xiden makes this mandatory by August? Maybe June.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on April 22, 2021, 11:12:05 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/pfizer-ceo-says-third-covid-vaccine-dose-likely-needed-within-12-months.html

And then an annual one until you die, right?

Shouldn't take many.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/annual-covid-19-vaccine-booster-shots-likely-needed-pfizer-ceo-says-11618520527

Guessing Xiden makes this mandatory by August? Maybe June.

You'll pussy out and take it if it's mandatory and you know it
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on April 23, 2021, 07:32:40 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/pfizer-ceo-says-third-covid-vaccine-dose-likely-needed-within-12-months.html

And then an annual one until you die, right?

Shouldn't take many.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/annual-covid-19-vaccine-booster-shots-likely-needed-pfizer-ceo-says-11618520527

Guessing Xiden makes this mandatory by August? Maybe June.

You'll pussy out and take it if it's mandatory and you know it
Brad's holding out until he can spare his arm.and take it the way he favors taking everything--in his ass.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on April 23, 2021, 03:35:55 PM
You'll pussy out and take it if it's mandatory and you know it

Officially I always do everything that the Government makes mandatory.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on April 23, 2021, 03:36:49 PM
You'll pussy out and take it if it's mandatory and you know it

Officially I always do everything that the Government makes madatory.

Good job citizen you even mask up in your icon but I figure Brad here is more patriotically correct.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on April 23, 2021, 06:30:49 PM
You'll pussy out and take it if it's mandatory and you know it

Officially I always do everything that the Government makes madatory.

Good job citizen you even mask up in your icon but I figure Brad here is more patriotically correct.

Patriotically correct is not as good as being technically correct.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on April 23, 2021, 09:01:57 PM
You'll pussy out and take it if it's mandatory and you know it

Officially I always do everything that the Government makes madatory.

Good job citizen you even mask up in your icon but I figure Brad here is more patriotically correct.

Patriotically correct is not as good as being technically correct.

Yeah but you gotta get the wins where you can and technically correct doesn't even get you cool eagles and shit.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on April 24, 2021, 12:43:53 AM
You'll pussy out and take it if it's mandatory and you know it

Officially I always do everything that the Government makes madatory.

Good job citizen you even mask up in your icon but I figure Brad here is more patriotically correct.

Patriotically correct is not as good as being technically correct.

Yeah but you gotta get the wins where you can and technically correct doesn't even get you cool eagles and shit.

Just the cool eagles.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on May 05, 2021, 03:35:25 PM
https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1389993369867333635

LOL
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 05, 2021, 03:43:12 PM
I am an idiot, a cretin, a real fuckbrained moron who believes in the lying doctors and their devil shots, and I still think this is real fuckin stupid
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 05, 2021, 05:51:56 PM
I can't wait to see how this jibes with HIPAA regulations. It's going to be fucking hilarious.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 05, 2021, 08:24:49 PM
I can't wait to see how this jibes with HIPAA regulations. It's going to be fucking hilarious.
HIPAA regulations don't really apply. First, HIPAA only aplies to healthcare providers. Second, the cards are hand-written on paper, not electronic, and the security rule only applies to electronic records.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Zelen on May 06, 2021, 06:21:45 PM
I can't wait to see how this jibes with HIPAA regulations. It's going to be fucking hilarious.
HIPAA regulations don't really apply. First, HIPAA only aplies to healthcare providers. Second, the cards are hand-written on paper, not electronic, and the security rule only applies to electronic records.

There's a ton of loopholes even aside from that. Google has been scooping up private health information from Project Nightingale (et al). Link (https://compliancy-group.com/google-project-nightingale-access-to-patient-data-not-a-hipaa-violation/)

There's no way an individual can pursue damages under HIPAA either. Basically the government has to go after the megacorporations, but we all know that's not going to happen because the government and the megacorporations are effectively the same thing, they just have different fictions around them.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 06, 2021, 06:47:42 PM
---
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 06, 2021, 06:51:31 PM
I can't wait to see how this jibes with HIPAA regulations. It's going to be fucking hilarious.
HIPAA regulations don't really apply. First, HIPAA only aplies to healthcare providers. Second, the cards are hand-written on paper, not electronic, and the security rule only applies to electronic records.

As a parent and former teacher, I know getting proof of certain vaccinations was a regular thing at schools both for students and teachers - well after HIPAA was in place. As a teacher, I had to get a regular tuberculosis test as well (every four years).
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 06, 2021, 07:28:50 PM
I can't wait to see how this jibes with HIPAA regulations. It's going to be fucking hilarious.
HIPAA regulations don't really apply. First, HIPAA only aplies to healthcare providers. Second, the cards are hand-written on paper, not electronic, and the security rule only applies to electronic records.

As a parent and former teacher, I know getting proof of certain vaccinations was a regular thing at schools both for students and teachers - well after HIPAA was in place. As a teacher, I had to get a regular tuberculosis test as well (every four years).
Sure, but different diseases have different rules. Your school can't require you to get regular HIV tests and share the results because (presumably) you're not doing things at the school that would spread HIV. OTOH, if you were doing porn, those HIV tests are going to be expected.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 06, 2021, 07:34:21 PM
In reply to Ratman_tf's video, Chris Christie had a pretty good video answering questions of this sort.


Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 06, 2021, 09:18:52 PM
As a parent and former teacher, I know getting proof of certain vaccinations was a regular thing at schools both for students and teachers - well after HIPAA was in place. As a teacher, I had to get a regular tuberculosis test as well (every four years).

What is the point of getting you to do a regular tuberculosis test every four years when they can just give you a TB vaccine?

I blame Big Lab Test.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 06, 2021, 09:25:25 PM
In reply to Ratman_tf's video, Chris Christie had a pretty good video answering questions of this sort.



Not sure what exactly you expect an Allergologist is going to add to the discussion regarding a viral epidemic.

I mean treating Hayfever I would back her opinion 100%.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 06, 2021, 11:11:32 PM
In reply to Ratman_tf's video, Chris Christie had a pretty good video answering questions of this sort.



I watched a 30 minute infomercial so you don't have to.

They don't address any of Dr. Vanden Bossche's concerns. The closest they come is at 22:30 when Dr. Bailey comments that the sooner everyone gets vaccinated the less chance there is of mutation creating new strains. Dr. Vanden Bossche's claim is that the way we are rolling out the vaccines is creating exactly that kind of environment.

Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 07, 2021, 03:38:47 AM
Not sure what exactly you expect an Allergologist is going to add to the discussion regarding a viral epidemic.

I mean treating Hayfever I would back her opinion 100%.

She's speaking because she is President of the American Medical Association which has over 240 thousand members, and is speaking for the AMA. Representing an established organization of 240,000 doctors is fundamentally different than just being a single doctor with an opinion. With over 9 million doctors worldwide, there are individual doctors with a huge range of opinions. There are licensed doctors who support faith healing. There are licensed doctors who opposed vaccination programs in general. Simply having a degree in the field, even in a sub-field allows a huge range.

Regarding Geert Vanden Bossche...

Dr. Vanden Bossche does appear to have a Veterinary Doctor degree and a specialty in virology. From PubMed, I can see that he has 8 publications between 1988 and 1995, but nothing after 1995. (ref) (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Vanden+Bossche+G&cauthor_id=7551734) Looking over his LinkedIn profile (https://www.linkedin.com/in/geertvandenbossche/), he seems to have jumped around to a number of virus-related companies or foundations from 1995 to 2011. He did work for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation from 2008 to 2011 as a senior program officer. He is noted, for example, as having helped a researcher get a grant from the Foundation in 2010. (ref) (https://web.archive.org/web/20150905214103/https://vector.childrenshospital.org/2010/07/a-distant-star-a-single-vaccine-at-birth/) After that, though, his main work is for companies called Univac and Vareco - which I can't find any references to other than his own credits.

In his 2021 talk, he credited himself as "Founder and CSO, Coimeva Llc", which isn't listed on his LinkedIn profile, but that does turn up this company profile.
Quote
Company Description: Coimeva is located in Huldenberg, FLEMISH BRABANT, Belgium and is part of the Education & Training Services Industry. Coimeva has 2 total employees across all of its locations and generates $37,000 in sales (USD).(Employees and Sales figures are modelled).
Key Principal: Geert Vanden Bossche
Industry: Education & Training Services
Education Sector
Schools and educational services, nec
Arts and crafts schools
Source: https://www.dnb.com/business-directory/company-profiles.coimeva.1c30a7c7a2e48d651cac3e61842ae2cf.html

In his letter (ref) (https://t.co/0Fupw9JInP?amp=1), he says that he was a keynote speaker at "Vaccine Summit Ohio" in 2021. From the site, he isn't listed in the advertised 14 speakers for that conference (ref) (https://www.rsc.org/events/detail/44889/vaccines-summit-ohio-2021). However, he among the 47 total speakers in the full program.

From this, it seems to me that he is recognized enough to speak at among 46 others at an Ohio conference, but he does not seem to be a leader in the field.

---

As for the substance of his claims, there are a number of rebuttals. The link below seemed the most scholarly. It's not my field, so I can't confirm most of it, but it is thoroughly referenced.

https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claims
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: KingCheops on May 07, 2021, 11:01:56 AM
---


Thanks.  This was fascinating.  Also thanks for watching the other video so I don't have to.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 07, 2021, 02:08:10 PM
Not sure what exactly you expect an Allergologist is going to add to the discussion regarding a viral epidemic.

I mean treating Hayfever I would back her opinion 100%.

She's speaking because she is President of the American Medical Association which has over 240 thousand members, and is speaking for the AMA. Representing an established organization of 240,000 doctors is fundamentally different than just being a single doctor with an opinion. With over 9 million doctors worldwide, there are individual doctors with a huge range of opinions. There are licensed doctors who support faith healing. There are licensed doctors who opposed vaccination programs in general. Simply having a degree in the field, even in a sub-field allows a huge range.

Regarding Geert Vanden Bossche...

Dr. Vanden Bossche does appear to have a Veterinary Doctor degree and a specialty in virology. From PubMed, I can see that he has 8 publications between 1988 and 1995, but nothing after 1995. (ref) (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Vanden+Bossche+G&cauthor_id=7551734) Looking over his LinkedIn profile (https://www.linkedin.com/in/geertvandenbossche/), he seems to have jumped around to a number of virus-related companies or foundations from 1995 to 2011. He did work for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation from 2008 to 2011 as a senior program officer. He is noted, for example, as having helped a researcher get a grant from the Foundation in 2010. (ref) (https://web.archive.org/web/20150905214103/https://vector.childrenshospital.org/2010/07/a-distant-star-a-single-vaccine-at-birth/) After that, though, his main work is for companies called Univac and Vareco - which I can't find any references to other than his own credits.

In his 2021 talk, he credited himself as "Founder and CSO, Coimeva Llc", which isn't listed on his LinkedIn profile, but that does turn up this company profile.
Quote
Company Description: Coimeva is located in Huldenberg, FLEMISH BRABANT, Belgium and is part of the Education & Training Services Industry. Coimeva has 2 total employees across all of its locations and generates $37,000 in sales (USD).(Employees and Sales figures are modelled).
Key Principal: Geert Vanden Bossche
Industry: Education & Training Services
Education Sector
Schools and educational services, nec
Arts and crafts schools
Source: https://www.dnb.com/business-directory/company-profiles.coimeva.1c30a7c7a2e48d651cac3e61842ae2cf.html

In his letter (ref) (https://t.co/0Fupw9JInP?amp=1), he says that he was a keynote speaker at "Vaccine Summit Ohio" in 2021. From the site, he isn't listed in the advertised 14 speakers for that conference (ref) (https://www.rsc.org/events/detail/44889/vaccines-summit-ohio-2021). However, he among the 47 total speakers in the full program.

From this, it seems to me that he is recognized enough to speak at among 46 others at an Ohio conference, but he does not seem to be a leader in the field.

---

As for the substance of his claims, there are a number of rebuttals. The link below seemed the most scholarly. It's not my field, so I can't confirm most of it, but it is thoroughly referenced.

https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claims

Correct me if I'm wrong, the article writer, Edward Nirenberg, has no published papers a PubMed and no presense on Linkedin.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Edward+Nirenberg
https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?keywords=edward%20nirenberg&origin=CLUSTER_EXPANSION

Notably, in his article-

Quote
Ending COVID-19 will require vaccination- this is not a matter of debate or discussion.

I guess we should all stop asking questions about the vaccine and just accept it without debate or discussion.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: KingCheops on May 07, 2021, 02:39:52 PM
I guess we should all stop asking questions about the vaccine and just accept it without debate or discussion.

Science!
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 07, 2021, 02:48:02 PM
As for the substance of his claims, there are a number of rebuttals. The link below seemed the most scholarly. It's not my field, so I can't confirm most of it, but it is thoroughly referenced.

https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claims

Correct me if I'm wrong, the article writer, Edward Nirenberg, has no published papers a PubMed and no presense on Linkedin.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Edward+Nirenberg
https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?keywords=edward%20nirenberg&origin=CLUSTER_EXPANSION

You're not wrong on that, but the author provides an extensive list of fully-sourced references to back up his explanation. He's not speaking on his own authority, but rather acting as an educator to point people to more authoritative sources. He apparently just graduated with his degree, and seems to be in paper-writing mode.

I haven't found a leading vaccine researcher who specifically takes the time to address Vanden Bossche's points individually. However, that's not because they agree with him, but simply because they are focused on addressing the general public rather than addressing individual opposing opinions like Bossche.

Would you be interested in my providing links to explanations from leading virologists and vaccine researchers on the general topic? Here are some that I looked over:

https://www.chcradio.com/episode/Angela-Rasmussen/564

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/december/penn-mrna-biology-pioneers-receive-covid19-vaccine-enabled-by-their-foundational-research

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBWIzg6wBec&t=1s

I guess we should all stop asking questions about the vaccine and just accept it without debate or discussion.

I'm sorry that Nirnberg has a dismissive tone, but that doesn't mean he is wrong. Here on this forum, a lot of posters are less than humble in how they talk about opposing views.

Whether to believe a particular scientific point shouldn't be based on the speaker's politics or on the tone they use, but on the weight of the evidence behind them.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on May 07, 2021, 03:24:38 PM
Oh I see...all you have to do is call your Marxist agenda "science" and anyone who questions it is just a science-denier. Newspeak is pretty neat!
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 07, 2021, 03:40:28 PM
I concur that Nirenberg doesn't seem to have any relevant credentials, and clearly has an agenda. Doesn't mean he's wrong in his critique, but it does mean we'd have to examine it closely. But I also agree that while Bossche does have some credentials, he's not particularly authoritative, his theory seems sketchy, and he appears to be the only one promoting it.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 07, 2021, 04:10:11 PM
As for the substance of his claims, there are a number of rebuttals. The link below seemed the most scholarly. It's not my field, so I can't confirm most of it, but it is thoroughly referenced.

https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claims

Correct me if I'm wrong, the article writer, Edward Nirenberg, has no published papers a PubMed and no presense on Linkedin.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Edward+Nirenberg
https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?keywords=edward%20nirenberg&origin=CLUSTER_EXPANSION

You're not wrong on that, but the author provides an extensive list of fully-sourced references to back up his explanation. He's not speaking on his own authority, but rather acting as an educator to point people to more authoritative sources. He apparently just graduated with his degree, and seems to be in paper-writing mode.

I haven't found a leading vaccine researcher who specifically takes the time to address Vanden Bossche's points individually. However, that's not because they agree with him, but simply because they are focused on addressing the general public rather than addressing individual opposing opinions like Bossche.

Would you be interested in my providing links to explanations from leading virologists and vaccine researchers on the general topic? Here are some that I looked over:

https://www.chcradio.com/episode/Angela-Rasmussen/564

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/december/penn-mrna-biology-pioneers-receive-covid19-vaccine-enabled-by-their-foundational-research

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBWIzg6wBec&t=1s

I guess we should all stop asking questions about the vaccine and just accept it without debate or discussion.

I'm sorry that Nirnberg has a dismissive tone, but that doesn't mean he is wrong. Here on this forum, a lot of posters are less than humble in how they talk about opposing views.

I don't care how the posters here talk about opposing views. We're all a bunch of wankers dipping our toes into politics and current events on a message board focused on pretending to be an elf. I can take or leave an individual post as I see fit.

I do care that a rebuttal to a claim ends with a declaration supporting ignorance and blind obedience. That is a huge goddamn red flag.
He is most definitley wrong on that point.

Quote
Whether to believe a particular scientific point shouldn't be based on the speaker's politics or on the tone they use, but on the weight of the evidence behind them.

I agree. But you and I are both not experts on the subject, and yet we are faced with the decision to take an experimental vaccine that has only been created this past year. Information on the long term effects of these vaccines are impossible to determine. I resent the idea that we are not allowed to be critical of the subject, and any concern is dismissed by government and the mainstream media. That makes is exceedingly difficult to determine who to "trust" on the subject.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Zelen on May 07, 2021, 04:47:23 PM
If we suppose that the orthodox position is wrong, just because someone is dissenting from the orthodox position doesn't mean they are right.

I'm very skeptical of these vaccines, but I'm also skeptical of Vanden Bossche. In the past year, basically all of the extreme alarmist reactions have been wrong. The videos we saw of people collapsing in the street in China were staged, the models predicting millions of dead were off by orders of magnitude, even the numbers we do have need to be taken with a heavy dose of salt due to sketchy testing procedures and deaths-with attribution.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 07, 2021, 05:11:10 PM
Not sure what exactly you expect an Allergologist is going to add to the discussion regarding a viral epidemic.

I mean treating Hayfever I would back her opinion 100%.

She's speaking because she is President of the American Medical Association which has over 240 thousand members, and is speaking for the AMA. Representing an established organization of 240,000 doctors is fundamentally different than just being a single doctor with an opinion. With over 9 million doctors worldwide, there are individual doctors with a huge range of opinions. There are licensed doctors who support faith healing. There are licensed doctors who opposed vaccination programs in general. Simply having a degree in the field, even in a sub-field allows a huge range.

Regarding Geert Vanden Bossche...

Dr. Vanden Bossche does appear to have a Veterinary Doctor degree and a specialty in virology. From PubMed, I can see that he has 8 publications between 1988 and 1995, but nothing after 1995. (ref) (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Vanden+Bossche+G&cauthor_id=7551734) Looking over his LinkedIn profile (https://www.linkedin.com/in/geertvandenbossche/), he seems to have jumped around to a number of virus-related companies or foundations from 1995 to 2011. He did work for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation from 2008 to 2011 as a senior program officer. He is noted, for example, as having helped a researcher get a grant from the Foundation in 2010. (ref) (https://web.archive.org/web/20150905214103/https://vector.childrenshospital.org/2010/07/a-distant-star-a-single-vaccine-at-birth/) After that, though, his main work is for companies called Univac and Vareco - which I can't find any references to other than his own credits.

In his 2021 talk, he credited himself as "Founder and CSO, Coimeva Llc", which isn't listed on his LinkedIn profile, but that does turn up this company profile.
Quote
Company Description: Coimeva is located in Huldenberg, FLEMISH BRABANT, Belgium and is part of the Education & Training Services Industry. Coimeva has 2 total employees across all of its locations and generates $37,000 in sales (USD).(Employees and Sales figures are modelled).
Key Principal: Geert Vanden Bossche
Industry: Education & Training Services
Education Sector
Schools and educational services, nec
Arts and crafts schools
Source: https://www.dnb.com/business-directory/company-profiles.coimeva.1c30a7c7a2e48d651cac3e61842ae2cf.html

In his letter (ref) (https://t.co/0Fupw9JInP?amp=1), he says that he was a keynote speaker at "Vaccine Summit Ohio" in 2021. From the site, he isn't listed in the advertised 14 speakers for that conference (ref) (https://www.rsc.org/events/detail/44889/vaccines-summit-ohio-2021). However, he among the 47 total speakers in the full program.

From this, it seems to me that he is recognized enough to speak at among 46 others at an Ohio conference, but he does not seem to be a leader in the field.

---

As for the substance of his claims, there are a number of rebuttals. The link below seemed the most scholarly. It's not my field, so I can't confirm most of it, but it is thoroughly referenced.

https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claims

So then who to believe?  The part time Allergologist, full time Bureaucrat with training in Pediatrics or the trained Virologist with actual experience?

Its a conundrum alright.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 07, 2021, 05:39:43 PM
Whether to believe a particular scientific point shouldn't be based on the speaker's politics or on the tone they use, but on the weight of the evidence behind them.

I agree. But you and I are both not experts on the subject, and yet we are faced with the decision to take an experimental vaccine that has only been created this past year. Information on the long term effects of these vaccines are impossible to determine. I resent the idea that we are not allowed to be critical of the subject, and any concern is dismissed by government and the mainstream media. That makes is exceedingly difficult to determine who to "trust" on the subject.

Sadly, the dismissive tone has become standard for all politically-tinged discussion these days from both sides, and worse, covid-19 has become politically-tinged. I've fallen prey to it at times, though to be fair, I've also encountered it a lot.

For medical matters, my general rule is to follow my doctor's advice. In this matter, both my personal doctor and doctors in general are not just recommending the vaccine, but taking the vaccine for themselves. That's the biggest reason that has sold me on it.

I've followed plenty of Internet news about covid, which is natural given how vital it is for all our lives. But in most matters, I don't let my Internet research trump my doctor's advice. At most, I'll seek out a second opinion if I don't like my doctor at the time. Technically, both my parents are medical doctors, and I'll listen to them too, which I guess means I've sometimes gotten 3 or 4 opinions - but mostly that seems excessive and they mostly agree. In pre-covid times, I've seen too many people go down a rabbit-hole of following some Internet advice they found against what their doctor says, which usually turns out badly.


I concur that Nirenberg doesn't seem to have any relevant credentials, and clearly has an agenda. Doesn't mean he's wrong in his critique, but it does mean we'd have to examine it closely. But I also agree that while Bossche does have some credentials, he's not particularly authoritative, his theory seems sketchy, and he appears to be the only one promoting it.

Thanks, Pat. As you note, this isn't about Nirenberg, since the views he promotes are shared by many others. I thought he did do a good job of explaining in detail and giving detailed references, but he did have a dismissive tone. Below is another rebuttal of Bossche. It is written by Jonathan Jarry, who is a molecular biologist working as PR for McGill university. However, he consults with specialist Dr. Paul Offit for the facts, who is the co-inventor of the rotavirus vaccine and a highly qualified expert.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-pseudoscience/doomsday-prophecy-dr-geert-vanden-bossche
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 07, 2021, 06:14:30 PM
Whether to believe a particular scientific point shouldn't be based on the speaker's politics or on the tone they use, but on the weight of the evidence behind them.

I agree. But you and I are both not experts on the subject, and yet we are faced with the decision to take an experimental vaccine that has only been created this past year. Information on the long term effects of these vaccines are impossible to determine. I resent the idea that we are not allowed to be critical of the subject, and any concern is dismissed by government and the mainstream media. That makes is exceedingly difficult to determine who to "trust" on the subject.

Sadly, the dismissive tone has become standard for all politically-tinged discussion these days from both sides, and worse, covid-19 has become politically-tinged. I've fallen prey to it at times, though to be fair, I've also encountered it a lot.

For medical matters, my general rule is to follow my doctor's advice. In this matter, both my personal doctor and doctors in general are not just recommending the vaccine, but taking the vaccine for themselves. That's the biggest reason that has sold me on it.

I've followed plenty of Internet news about covid, which is natural given how vital it is for all our lives. But in most matters, I don't let my Internet research trump my doctor's advice. At most, I'll seek out a second opinion if I don't like my doctor at the time. Technically, both my parents are medical doctors, and I'll listen to them too, which I guess means I've sometimes gotten 3 or 4 opinions - but mostly that seems excessive and they mostly agree. In pre-covid times, I've seen too many people go down a rabbit-hole of following some Internet advice they found against what their doctor says, which usually turns out badly.

I'm not talking about taking some rando internet advice over your doctor's advice.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 07, 2021, 07:59:53 PM
I'm not talking about taking some rando internet advice over your doctor's advice.

Yeah, I would trust my GP more then the head of the Ask Me Anything association.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: SHARK on May 07, 2021, 09:02:27 PM
Greetings!

Vaccines are required to end the China Virus, and there shall be no discussion or debate.

What if someone said, fine, and caved this guy's fucking head in with a shovel?

That settles the matter when there is "No discussion or debate!"

These arrogant fuckers can all get filled with cement. They are so arrogant, condescending, and in love with tyranny it is disgusting. Just shut up, and get on your knees!

And some benighted and such enlightened people *wonder* why so many people are alarmed at these jackasses, and are committed to resisting them?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 07, 2021, 11:33:12 PM
Be the çhange you wanna see, these are all easily discoverable public figures after all
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 08, 2021, 02:11:09 AM
Be the çhange you wanna see, these are all easily discoverable public figures after all

Well, I did my part.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 08, 2021, 02:25:09 AM
I'm not talking about taking some rando internet advice over your doctor's advice.

Yeah, I would trust my GP more then the head of the Ask Me Anything association.

To Ratman - sorry, that wasn't meant to imply you. I was talking about people I know in real life pre-covid.

I think we're agreed here that listening to one's own doctor who knows you and treats you for health advice is a good idea.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 08, 2021, 03:54:32 AM
I'm not talking about taking some rando internet advice over your doctor's advice.

Yeah, I would trust my GP more then the head of the Ask Me Anything association.

To Ratman - sorry, that wasn't meant to imply you. I was talking about people I know in real life pre-covid.

I think we're agreed here that listening to one's own doctor who knows you and treats you for health advice is a good idea.

As a pretty milquetoast and generalized statement, yeah.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: TNMalt on May 08, 2021, 10:02:06 AM
Most of the selfies have been on social media. I've gotten both of my shots and have no intention of posting a selfie. No need until the mRNA chamges give me my mutant powers. I do have a quick question since I see Kungflu and China virus getting tossed around casually. How many of you know anyone of Asian ancestry that has been subjected to racism as a result?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: yancy on May 08, 2021, 08:15:10 PM
How many of you know anyone of Asian ancestry that has been subjected to racism as a result?

I know a few. By 'as a result' you of course mean 'as a result of taking the subway in New York?'
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: KingCheops on May 09, 2021, 10:04:28 AM
That makes is exceedingly difficult to determine who to "trust" on the subject.

Always the correct answer:

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette1.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fx-files%2Fimages%2Ff%2Ff6%2FTrust_No_One_tagline.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20070529000016&f=1&nofb=1)
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 10, 2021, 05:53:54 PM
Most of the selfies have been on social media. I've gotten both of my shots and have no intention of posting a selfie. No need until the mRNA chamges give me my mutant powers. I do have a quick question since I see Kungflu and China virus getting tossed around casually. How many of you know anyone of Asian ancestry that has been subjected to racism as a result?

About the same number as those subject to racicism due to the media calling it the brazilian/indian/etc variant

Or before when the media called it the wuhan virus.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 10, 2021, 06:55:12 PM
Most of the selfies have been on social media. I've gotten both of my shots and have no intention of posting a selfie. No need until the mRNA chamges give me my mutant powers. I do have a quick question since I see Kungflu and China virus getting tossed around casually. How many of you know anyone of Asian ancestry that has been subjected to racism as a result?

Know of anyone, or personally know someone?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 10, 2021, 08:22:46 PM
To Ratman - sorry, that wasn't meant to imply you. I was talking about people I know in real life pre-covid.

I think we're agreed here that listening to one's own doctor who knows you and treats you for health advice is a good idea.

As a pretty milquetoast and generalized statement, yeah.

Fair enough. How do we differ on specifics? Do you think listening to one's doctor is a good idea for whether to get a given vaccine? Is the answer different for covid compared to other vaccines?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 10, 2021, 09:39:43 PM
To Ratman - sorry, that wasn't meant to imply you. I was talking about people I know in real life pre-covid.

I think we're agreed here that listening to one's own doctor who knows you and treats you for health advice is a good idea.

As a pretty milquetoast and generalized statement, yeah.

Fair enough. How do we differ on specifics? Do you think listening to one's doctor is a good idea for whether to get a given vaccine? Is the answer different for covid compared to other vaccines?

Yes and yes.

The science and data for known vaccines for known diseases have been around for decades if not hundreds of years. If a family doctor, general practicioner type says to get a known vaccine, that's probably good, informed advice.

The Covid-19 mRNA vaccine was literally created last year, and only has emergency FDA approval in the face of the pandemic. You can't seek legal recourse for any unintended side effects of the mRNA vaccines.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

That in itself might give someone pause. But governments are pushing these vaccinations on everyone, worldwide. I don't expect a general practicioner, family doctor type to have an informed opinion on experimental vaccines and their unforseen consequences. Just the government line that everybody need to get vaccinated.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Mistwell on May 10, 2021, 09:40:57 PM
https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1389993369867333635

LOL

I was just at the Lakers vs Clippers game, and I had to show either my vaccine card or evidence I had been tested in the past 72 hours (and there was a rapid test site there for 30 minute results if needed).

They are also instituting a vaccinated-only section of the stadium, in addition to the policy I mentioned above.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 10, 2021, 10:29:40 PM
https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1389993369867333635

LOL

I was just at the Lakers vs Clippers game, and I had to show either my vaccine card or evidence I had been tested in the past 72 hours (and there was a rapid test site there for 30 minute results if needed).

They are also instituting a vaccinated-only section of the stadium, in addition to the policy I mentioned above.
I'd glad we're finally over that irrational opposition to a two-tier society. We need to realize that some animals are more equal than others.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Trinculoisdead on May 11, 2021, 09:44:31 AM
These stadiums are pandering to the psychology of fear. I don't understand why a rational person would be resistant to hanging out with unvaccinated people as long as said person is themselves vaccinated.

Perhaps they justify it because that 5% or whatever chance of catching covid is far less likely if you surround yourself with fellow five-percenters and not the unwashed masses. That kind of extreme caution can only come about in people fearful by nature or corrupted mentally by the news over the last year.

By the way, that "spike shedding" is another example of a retarded idea taking root in the minds of the paranoid. There is no proof of any such phenomenon: https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid19vaccine-reproductivepro-idUSL1N2MG256
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: KingCheops on May 11, 2021, 10:37:17 AM
To Ratman - sorry, that wasn't meant to imply you. I was talking about people I know in real life pre-covid.

I think we're agreed here that listening to one's own doctor who knows you and treats you for health advice is a good idea.

As a pretty milquetoast and generalized statement, yeah.

Fair enough. How do we differ on specifics? Do you think listening to one's doctor is a good idea for whether to get a given vaccine? Is the answer different for covid compared to other vaccines?

Yes and yes.

The science and data for known vaccines for known diseases have been around for decades if not hundreds of years. If a family doctor, general practicioner type says to get a known vaccine, that's probably good, informed advice.

The Covid-19 mRNA vaccine was literally created last year, and only has emergency FDA approval in the face of the pandemic. You can't seek legal recourse for any unintended side effects of the mRNA vaccines.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

That in itself might give someone pause. But governments are pushing these vaccinations on everyone, worldwide. I don't expect a general practicioner, family doctor type to have an informed opinion on experimental vaccines and their unforseen consequences. Just the government line that everybody need to get vaccinated.

Canuckistan is actually looking to start removing licenses from doctors who don't toe the line:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctors-misinformation-covid-19-1.6021489 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctors-misinformation-covid-19-1.6021489)

Don't say what they tell you to say and you lose your livelihood that you worked so hard for.  Doctors are a whole lot less courageous than small business owners so most will roll over.  Big Pharma's been through this song and dance plenty of times they've honed themselves in to apex predators.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 11, 2021, 11:00:15 AM
To Ratman - sorry, that wasn't meant to imply you. I was talking about people I know in real life pre-covid.

I think we're agreed here that listening to one's own doctor who knows you and treats you for health advice is a good idea.

As a pretty milquetoast and generalized statement, yeah.

Fair enough. How do we differ on specifics? Do you think listening to one's doctor is a good idea for whether to get a given vaccine? Is the answer different for covid compared to other vaccines?

Yes and yes.

The science and data for known vaccines for known diseases have been around for decades if not hundreds of years. If a family doctor, general practicioner type says to get a known vaccine, that's probably good, informed advice.

The Covid-19 mRNA vaccine was literally created last year, and only has emergency FDA approval in the face of the pandemic. You can't seek legal recourse for any unintended side effects of the mRNA vaccines.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

That in itself might give someone pause. But governments are pushing these vaccinations on everyone, worldwide. I don't expect a general practicioner, family doctor type to have an informed opinion on experimental vaccines and their unforseen consequences. Just the government line that everybody need to get vaccinated.

Canuckistan is actually looking to start removing licenses from doctors who don't toe the line:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctors-misinformation-covid-19-1.6021489 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctors-misinformation-covid-19-1.6021489)

Don't say what they tell you to say and you lose your livelihood that you worked so hard for.  Doctors are a whole lot less courageous than small business owners so most will roll over.  Big Pharma's been through this song and dance plenty of times they've honed themselves in to apex predators.
That's an interesting take on the article. It really shows how your thinking is twisted.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 11, 2021, 12:26:50 PM
Don't say what they tell you to say and you lose your livelihood that you worked so hard for.  Doctors are a whole lot less courageous than small business owners so most will roll over.  Big Pharma's been through this song and dance plenty of times they've honed themselves in to apex predators.

KingCheops - This sounds like you're saying that doctors are just pawns for saying what Big Pharma tells them. Given this, how do you think that people should make medical decisions? Should they just research and decide what is best for themselves?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Mistwell on May 11, 2021, 01:09:22 PM
These stadiums are pandering to the psychology of fear. I don't understand why a rational person would be resistant to hanging out with unvaccinated people as long as said person is themselves vaccinated.

They don't want their players infected by members of the crowd. That's all this is. The vaccinated-only sections are the ones next to the court. One player infected can cost them millions and millions of dollars, particularly since playoffs are about to start.

Quote
Perhaps they justify it because that 5% or whatever chance of catching covid is far less likely if you surround yourself with fellow five-percenters and not the unwashed masses. That kind of extreme caution can only come about in people fearful by nature or corrupted mentally by the news over the last year.

It has nothing to do with the fans in the arena. They couldn't give a shit if they get infected or not. This isn't signalling. This is purely about protecting the product, which is the players on the court, and the staff and family members and others who come in contact with them.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 11, 2021, 01:21:25 PM
How do we differ on specifics? Do you think listening to one's doctor is a good idea for whether to get a given vaccine? Is the answer different for covid compared to other vaccines?

Yes and yes.

The science and data for known vaccines for known diseases have been around for decades if not hundreds of years. If a family doctor, general practicioner type says to get a known vaccine, that's probably good, informed advice.

The Covid-19 mRNA vaccine was literally created last year, and only has emergency FDA approval in the face of the pandemic. You can't seek legal recourse for any unintended side effects of the mRNA vaccines.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

That in itself might give someone pause. But governments are pushing these vaccinations on everyone, worldwide. I don't expect a general practicioner, family doctor type to have an informed opinion on experimental vaccines and their unforseen consequences. Just the government line that everybody need to get vaccinated.

It's true that general practitioners are less informed about the newly-released vaccines than established vaccines. But the general public are even less well-informed than doctors are, and have much less background knowledge to understand news items and properly evaluate risks.

It sounds like you're saying that in the case of new and/or experimental treatments, that's when a patient should *not* listen to their doctor - because a general practitioner won't have experience with those. Is that fair?

From my view, those are the cases when I would *most* rely on a doctor's advice. The doctor has less information to go on in those case - but then so do I. I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments. My doctor has a base of much more knowledge and experience than me. For a new treatment, she may well say "I don't know" and refer me to a specialist, but it's still deciding from a grounding she has of much greater knowledge of health.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 11, 2021, 03:13:46 PM
But muh science.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07993.pdf

Money shots:

"Most fundamentally, the groups we studied believe that science is a process, and not an institution."

"Indeed, anti-maskers often reveal themselves to be more sophisticated in their understanding of how scientific knowledge is socially constructed than their ideological adversaries, who espouse naïve realism about the “objective” truth of public health data."

"In other words, anti-maskers value unmediated access to information and privilege personal research and direct reading over “expert” interpretations."

"Its members value individual initiative and ingenuity, trusting scientific analysis only insofar as they can replicate it themselves by accessing and manipulating the data firsthand."

"They are highly reflexive about the inherently biased nature of any analysis, and resent what they view as the arrogant self-righteousness of scientific elites."

"Many of the users believe that the most important metrics are missing from government-released data."

"One user wrote: 'Coding data is a big deal—and those definitions should be offered transparently by every state. Without a national guideline—we are left with this mess'."

I can't tell if I'm being punked, or if this is a cry for help akin to POWs blinking Morse Code, or they're actually serious.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: KingCheops on May 11, 2021, 03:19:11 PM
But muh science.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07993.pdf

Money shots:

"Most fundamentally, the groups we studied believe that science is a process, and not an institution."

"Indeed, anti-maskers often reveal themselves to be more sophisticated in their understanding of how scientific knowledge is socially constructed than their ideological adversaries, who espouse naïve realism about the “objective” truth of public health data."

"In other words, anti-maskers value unmediated access to information and privilege personal research and direct reading over “expert” interpretations."

"Its members value individual initiative and ingenuity, trusting scientific analysis only insofar as they can replicate it themselves by accessing and manipulating the data firsthand."

"They are highly reflexive about the inherently biased nature of any analysis, and resent what they view as the arrogant self-righteousness of scientific elites."

"Many of the users believe that the most important metrics are missing from government-released data."

"One user wrote: 'Coding data is a big deal—and those definitions should be offered transparently by every state. Without a national guideline—we are left with this mess'."

I can't tell if I'm being punked, or if this is a cry for help akin to POWs blinking Morse Code, or they're actually serious.

It's almost like there should be some way to make sure the science is correct.  Like maybe some sort of "method" whereby transparent data and processes are scrutinized and replicated or disproved by other scientists conducting the same research.

I'm not anti-vaxx -- I've been to Egypt so I have more vaccinations than the Canadian average -- I just don't trust these junk mRNA gene therapies that we're not allowed to call gene therapies according to my "government."
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Zelen on May 11, 2021, 03:31:11 PM
I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments.

This is actually a pretty dangerous perspective and one that I think most medical professionals would caution against. All medical treatment is supposed to take place in a state of informed consent, which means that patients need to be aware of the potential benefits & drawbacks of procedures and patients always have the final say in whether to accept (or not) given treatments.

In the past I've disagreed with my doctor plenty of times over particular medications or treatments, and been proven right more often than not. Obviously there is a difference between someone like myself reading over medical info and an average person, but even assuming relative ignorance we must acknowledge doctors have a particular area of expertise, but every individual is an expert over their own body. Moreover, you undoubtedly care more about your own health than a doctor. A doctor is a wonderful resource for helping make a good decision, but a poor substitute for your own judgement.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on May 11, 2021, 03:41:01 PM
I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice

I was pretty sure before but now I know with absolute fact: you are a fucking moron. Holy shit...
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 11, 2021, 03:59:48 PM
I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice

I was pretty sure before but now I know with absolute fact: you are a fucking moron. Holy shit...
You pay the doctor presumably for his advice, but Zelen notes, informed consent is a necessity.

If my doctor prescribed me something harmful they'd be lucky if they were only sued into oblivion.

I do tend to be somewhat... visceral in my reactions, at times.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: KingCheops on May 11, 2021, 04:15:05 PM
I've watched medication fuck up my mom, my sister, and my dad.  And that is just mental stuff not even opioids.  Luckily my family has been able to avoid that particular curse that doctors lay on people.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 11, 2021, 04:17:34 PM
I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments.

This is actually a pretty dangerous perspective and one that I think most medical professionals would caution against. All medical treatment is supposed to take place in a state of informed consent, which means that patients need to be aware of the potential benefits & drawbacks of procedures and patients always have the final say in whether to accept (or not) given treatments.

In the past I've disagreed with my doctor plenty of times over particular medications or treatments, and been proven right more often than not. Obviously there is a difference between someone like myself reading over medical info and an average person, but even assuming relative ignorance we must acknowledge doctors have a particular area of expertise, but every individual is an expert over their own body. Moreover, you undoubtedly care more about your own health than a doctor. A doctor is a wonderful resource for helping make a good decision, but a poor substitute for your own judgement.

I'm not against either informed consent or patients doing their own research. I can see how you might read that with the snippet you quoted, but please try to read the rest of that. If I think something is wrong with my doctor's opinion, I think it is good to seek a second or third opinion and/or change doctors. Some doctors do suck, certainly.

However, I am wary if after the second and third and fourth opinion say the same as the first, someone disagrees with them all and decides on their own course of treatment. It may work out fine for some people, but I think that as a principle, it will lead to worse outcomes.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Zelen on May 11, 2021, 04:33:23 PM
But muh science.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07993.pdf

I can't tell if I'm being punked, or if this is a cry for help akin to POWs blinking Morse Code, or they're actually serious.

This paper itself is a serious work of propaganda. From the language constructions it uses ("anti-maskers"), to the ludicrous injection of "white supremacy" or the "attempted coup." WTF.

It's kind of stunning to see that even ostensibly intelligent people at MIT have no self-reflection in a paper like this. They can invoke something like the Tobacco industry and how it obfuscated the harmful impact of its products for decades, failing to see they themselves are now the ones who acting as the tools of the big Money/Power interests and their work is directly targeted against the type people who eventually revealed that Tobacco industry had been cooking the books.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 11, 2021, 04:49:06 PM
From my view, those are the cases when I would *most* rely on a doctor's advice. The doctor has less information to go on in those case - but then so do I. I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments. My doctor has a base of much more knowledge and experience than me. For a new treatment, she may well say "I don't know" and refer me to a specialist, but it's still deciding from a grounding she has of much greater knowledge of health.

As if most patients bother to do their own research.

Most of them dont even know what the tablets are that they swallow every day.

On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 11, 2021, 04:55:28 PM
From my view, those are the cases when I would *most* rely on a doctor's advice. The doctor has less information to go on in those case - but then so do I. I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments. My doctor has a base of much more knowledge and experience than me. For a new treatment, she may well say "I don't know" and refer me to a specialist, but it's still deciding from a grounding she has of much greater knowledge of health.

As if most patients bother to do their own research.

Most of them dont even know what the tablets are that they swallow every day.

On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.

As with Zelen, I apologize if my bad phrasing implied otherwise. I completely agree that reading and discussing with doctors is a good idea. My disagreement comes if the patient decides against the first, second, and third opinion to handle their own treatment.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 11, 2021, 07:06:45 PM
How do we differ on specifics? Do you think listening to one's doctor is a good idea for whether to get a given vaccine? Is the answer different for covid compared to other vaccines?

Yes and yes.

The science and data for known vaccines for known diseases have been around for decades if not hundreds of years. If a family doctor, general practicioner type says to get a known vaccine, that's probably good, informed advice.

The Covid-19 mRNA vaccine was literally created last year, and only has emergency FDA approval in the face of the pandemic. You can't seek legal recourse for any unintended side effects of the mRNA vaccines.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

That in itself might give someone pause. But governments are pushing these vaccinations on everyone, worldwide. I don't expect a general practicioner, family doctor type to have an informed opinion on experimental vaccines and their unforseen consequences. Just the government line that everybody need to get vaccinated.

It's true that general practitioners are less informed about the newly-released vaccines than established vaccines. But the general public are even less well-informed than doctors are, and have much less background knowledge to understand news items and properly evaluate risks.

It sounds like you're saying that in the case of new and/or experimental treatments, that's when a patient should *not* listen to their doctor - because a general practitioner won't have experience with those. Is that fair?

No. I'm saying it's a factor in people's decisions, not an absolute.

Quote
From my view, those are the cases when I would *most* rely on a doctor's advice. The doctor has less information to go on in those case - but then so do I. I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments. My doctor has a base of much more knowledge and experience than me. For a new treatment, she may well say "I don't know" and refer me to a specialist, but it's still deciding from a grounding she has of much greater knowledge of health.

But you choose your doctor and then choose to follow their reccomendations. I could pick a doctor that agrees with the critics of the vaccine and then say I'm choosing not to get vaccinated on the reccomendation of my family doctor. What would make my decision any better or worse than yours? I'm doing what my doctor said was right!

You can't offload the responsibility of making decisions about your body and health on another person. At best you can rely on their expertise to make your decision, but in the end, it's your decison, and your doctor doesn't have to live with your decisions. That's the time when you should do some research and make as informed a decision as possible.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 11, 2021, 07:14:09 PM
I've watched medication fuck up my mom, my sister, and my dad.  And that is just mental stuff not even opioids.  Luckily my family has been able to avoid that particular curse that doctors lay on people.

My brother was diagnosed with spastic colitis and prescribed a heavy fiber diet, which utterly fucked with the actual condition he had, Chron's Disease. It took him years and multiple doctors to get a correct diagnosis and a treatment plan.
Sometimes, doctors make mistakes. Sometimes, they make their patients worse. Sometimes they overprescribe opiods or antibiotics. A person can't just blindly do what their doctor says.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 11, 2021, 09:01:24 PM
From my view, those are the cases when I would *most* rely on a doctor's advice. The doctor has less information to go on in those case - but then so do I. I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments. My doctor has a base of much more knowledge and experience than me. For a new treatment, she may well say "I don't know" and refer me to a specialist, but it's still deciding from a grounding she has of much greater knowledge of health.

But you choose your doctor and then choose to follow their reccomendations. I could pick a doctor that agrees with the critics of the vaccine and then say I'm choosing not to get vaccinated on the reccomendation of my family doctor. What would make my decision any better or worse than yours? I'm doing what my doctor said was right!

You can't offload the responsibility of making decisions about your body and health on another person. At best you can rely on their expertise to make your decision, but in the end, it's your decison, and your doctor doesn't have to live with your decisions. That's the time when you should do some research and make as informed a decision as possible.

There's a huge difference between:

1) Choosing a doctor based on qualifications, and agreeing after talking to them.

2) Having concerns about your doctor and getting a second or third opinion - then using one's judgement to decide between the differing suggestions.

3) Pre-deciding what one want to hear, and then searching the Internet to find any doctor among tens of thousands because they say that.


I'm fine with #1 and #2, but I think #3 is a bad idea. If the doctor that you happened to choose is against the covid vaccine, I agree there is no difference. But if you're talking about #3, I think there is a difference.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 11, 2021, 09:53:30 PM
From my view, those are the cases when I would *most* rely on a doctor's advice. The doctor has less information to go on in those case - but then so do I. I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments. My doctor has a base of much more knowledge and experience than me. For a new treatment, she may well say "I don't know" and refer me to a specialist, but it's still deciding from a grounding she has of much greater knowledge of health.

But you choose your doctor and then choose to follow their reccomendations. I could pick a doctor that agrees with the critics of the vaccine and then say I'm choosing not to get vaccinated on the reccomendation of my family doctor. What would make my decision any better or worse than yours? I'm doing what my doctor said was right!

You can't offload the responsibility of making decisions about your body and health on another person. At best you can rely on their expertise to make your decision, but in the end, it's your decison, and your doctor doesn't have to live with your decisions. That's the time when you should do some research and make as informed a decision as possible.

There's a huge difference between:

1) Choosing a doctor based on qualifications, and agreeing after talking to them.

2) Having concerns about your doctor and getting a second or third opinion - then using one's judgement to decide between the differing suggestions.

3) Pre-deciding what one want to hear, and then searching the Internet to find any doctor among tens of thousands because they say that.


I'm fine with #1 and #2, but I think #3 is a bad idea. If the doctor that you happened to choose is against the covid vaccine, I agree there is no difference. But if you're talking about #3, I think there is a difference.

Yeah. I didn't mean to word that as if I were seeking out a doctor specifically for an outcome. I meant, the doctor you picked turned out to be, etc....

Your option 2 is interesting. What would cause someone to have those concerns about their doctor? Especially for a contentious topic like experimental vaccines.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Zelen on May 11, 2021, 11:00:07 PM
I'm not against either informed consent or patients doing their own research. I can see how you might read that with the snippet you quoted, but please try to read the rest of that.

It's cool, I'm not trying to blow up what you're saying into a straw man. Your perspective seems reasonable, despite some of the hyperbole others might raise. Where we disagree seems mostly about broader issues of power dynamics, trustworthiness of people in power, etc. No one is going to agree on all of that anyway.

While I don't think your position is advocating for this, I do think it's worthwhile to speak out against uncritically trusting "authority" figures. Way too many people are now trapped in this mindset that you can never make a decision without consulting an "expert." It's particularly pernicious because almost all of the questions people want answers to are OUGHT questions, not IS questions. The former almost always is outside the scope of objective knowledge and depends deeply on values & perspective.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 12, 2021, 04:23:59 AM
I'm not against either informed consent or patients doing their own research. I can see how you might read that with the snippet you quoted, but please try to read the rest of that.

It's cool, I'm not trying to blow up what you're saying into a straw man. Your perspective seems reasonable, despite some of the hyperbole others might raise. Where we disagree seems mostly about broader issues of power dynamics, trustworthiness of people in power, etc. No one is going to agree on all of that anyway.

While I don't think your position is advocating for this, I do think it's worthwhile to speak out against uncritically trusting "authority" figures. Way too many people are now trapped in this mindset that you can never make a decision without consulting an "expert." It's particularly pernicious because almost all of the questions people want answers to are OUGHT questions, not IS questions. The former almost always is outside the scope of objective knowledge and depends deeply on values & perspective.

In current partisan debates, I think both sides claim to be critically thinking - but they are highly biased in how they direct criticism. That's why I appreciate it here, and try to seek out speaking to people with opposing points of view.

I am generally very pro-science, meaning true peer-reviewed research in mainstream journals. Earlier, you brought up the case of smoking and tobacco companies earlier -- but I think you're drawing different conclusions from that example.

The tobacco companies had hundreds of millions of dollars, but they were completely unable to buy any mainstream peer-reviewed research that refuted the link with cancer. All the traditional institutions continued to publish results showing a clear link between cigarettes and cancer. Instead, the companies mainly tried to use PR and obfuscation to tell people "don't believe the scientists". They created their own research institute (TIRC) and put in place the handful of scientists who disputed the link, but TIRC didn't actually produce any peer-reviewed paper disputing the link. Instead, they mostly just created PR, and opinions from a few selected individual scientists like Clarence Little. The papers they actually published were mostly unrelated to the tobacco-cancer link. I thought the book "The Emperor of All Maladies" had a good account of it, and was a good read in general.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7170627-the-emperor-of-all-maladies

I think it's a great example of how opinion pieces and PR are easily bought, but mainstream science is not. Money could buy a handful of corrupt or simply incorrect scientists, but it didn't change the mass of research.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 12, 2021, 05:44:36 AM
On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.
I think that what you think does not match my professional experiences of working with doctors, with the biggest limiter being the doctors' available time per patient.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 12, 2021, 06:36:32 AM
From my view, those are the cases when I would *most* rely on a doctor's advice. The doctor has less information to go on in those case - but then so do I. I think it's always a bad idea for patients to do their own research and decide against their doctor's advice - and that is still true for new and/or experimental treatments. My doctor has a base of much more knowledge and experience than me. For a new treatment, she may well say "I don't know" and refer me to a specialist, but it's still deciding from a grounding she has of much greater knowledge of health.

As if most patients bother to do their own research.

Most of them dont even know what the tablets are that they swallow every day.

On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.

As with Zelen, I apologize if my bad phrasing implied otherwise. I completely agree that reading and discussing with doctors is a good idea. My disagreement comes if the patient decides against the first, second, and third opinion to handle their own treatment.

That is exactly informed consent.  The patient has to take responsiblitiy for their own treatment.

Why would you disagree with that?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 12, 2021, 06:39:13 AM
On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.
I think that what you think does not match my professional experiences of working with doctors, with the biggest limiter being the doctors' available time per patient.

So Doctors dont want to spend the time to discuss a patients treatment with the patient because that would waste their time that they could spend in not discussing a different patients treatment?

It has a certain logic.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 12, 2021, 06:54:10 AM
On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.
I think that what you think does not match my professional experiences of working with doctors, with the biggest limiter being the doctors' available time per patient.

So Doctors dont want to spend the time to discuss a patients treatment with the patient because that would waste their time that they could spend in not discussing a different patients treatment?

It has a certain logic.
There's a balance they have to make between quality of care and quantity of care. Devoting too much time to one patient's care can sometimes be a disservice to others (and invites claims of discrimination in some cases). This is why face to face time with the doctor is often limited to only 10 minutes for many appointments.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 12, 2021, 07:21:22 AM
On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.
I think that what you think does not match my professional experiences of working with doctors, with the biggest limiter being the doctors' available time per patient.

So Doctors dont want to spend the time to discuss a patients treatment with the patient because that would waste their time that they could spend in not discussing a different patients treatment?

It has a certain logic.
There's a balance they have to make between quality of care and quantity of care. Devoting too much time to one patient's care can sometimes be a disservice to others (and invites claims of discrimination in some cases). This is why face to face time with the doctor is often limited to only 10 minutes for many appointments.

So in that case there is no way that one of your doctors is going to make any real kind of diagnosis and or recommendation in a single 10 minute consulation.  They will send the patient for various lab tests or scans or xrays or what have you and rack up at least two or three consulations so that they can really milk that patient for as much as they can.

Because they cant be accused of discrimination if they send you for many expensive tests, can they?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: oggsmash on May 12, 2021, 09:12:13 AM
On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.
I think that what you think does not match my professional experiences of working with doctors, with the biggest limiter being the doctors' available time per patient.

So Doctors dont want to spend the time to discuss a patients treatment with the patient because that would waste their time that they could spend in not discussing a different patients treatment?

It has a certain logic.
There's a balance they have to make between quality of care and quantity of care. Devoting too much time to one patient's care can sometimes be a disservice to others (and invites claims of discrimination in some cases). This is why face to face time with the doctor is often limited to only 10 minutes for many appointments.

  Well...it is also up to the customer, the patient, to bring up to the doctor they may need a bit more time.  If the doctor can not do that, well IMO its the patient's fault for not telling the doctor he/she is fired.   I think we should in many of these interactions remember who is the client and who is the contractor/employee.   
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on May 12, 2021, 09:19:04 AM
Imagine saying something so mind-blowingly stupid then backtracking and pretending it's a nuanced position...typical gaslighting communist rhetoric.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: oggsmash on May 12, 2021, 09:29:25 AM
I've watched medication fuck up my mom, my sister, and my dad.  And that is just mental stuff not even opioids.  Luckily my family has been able to avoid that particular curse that doctors lay on people.

My brother was diagnosed with spastic colitis and prescribed a heavy fiber diet, which utterly fucked with the actual condition he had, Chron's Disease. It took him years and multiple doctors to get a correct diagnosis and a treatment plan.
Sometimes, doctors make mistakes. Sometimes, they make their patients worse. Sometimes they overprescribe opiods or antibiotics. A person can't just blindly do what their doctor says.

  Every profession has a range of performers in it, from high performers to lazy shitbags who show up to work to kill time.  Some people get into a professions being the top of their class, some get there from being nepotistic hires, diversity hires, etc and maybe last in their class.  I think people are quick to bow a little too quickly to authority in cases where their own personal best interests are in the discussion.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 12, 2021, 09:38:19 AM
On the contrary I think you will find that most doctors would appreciate being able to discuss the various pros and cons of potential treatments with their patients which is necessary if you want to have informed consent.
I think that what you think does not match my professional experiences of working with doctors, with the biggest limiter being the doctors' available time per patient.

So Doctors dont want to spend the time to discuss a patients treatment with the patient because that would waste their time that they could spend in not discussing a different patients treatment?

It has a certain logic.
There's a balance they have to make between quality of care and quantity of care. Devoting too much time to one patient's care can sometimes be a disservice to others (and invites claims of discrimination in some cases). This is why face to face time with the doctor is often limited to only 10 minutes for many appointments.

So in that case there is no way that one of your doctors is going to make any real kind of diagnosis and or recommendation in a single 10 minute consulation.  They will send the patient for various lab tests or scans or xrays or what have you and rack up at least two or three consulations so that they can really milk that patient for as much as they can.

Because they cant be accused of discrimination if they send you for many expensive tests, can they?
That's generally true, and it's also why most doctors will only see you after other medical professionals (typically nurses) have already collected,  filtered, and concentrated your subjective input into a format that allows the doctor to optimize their time with you. This will then go with labs, imaging, and other objective pieces (that may be precollected in some cases, particularly for existing patients or in integrated care networks). So, if you're a first time patient of a doctor, you most likely will not get a comprehensive diagnosis of a complex issue in a single visit.

As for ordering lots of expensive tests, that's not how they make money anymore.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 12, 2021, 09:39:19 AM
Imagine saying something so mind-blowingly stupid then backtracking and pretending it's a nuanced position...typical gaslighting communist rhetoric.
It's also the SOP of Fox News.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 12, 2021, 01:08:51 PM
Imagine saying something so mind-blowingly stupid then backtracking and pretending it's a nuanced position...typical gaslighting communist rhetoric.

so I gotta ask, Brad can't even tell a joke worth a damn and he's probably on like half the ignore lists I am. What's with this privilege
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 12, 2021, 04:35:24 PM
Imagine saying something so mind-blowingly stupid then backtracking and pretending it's a nuanced position...typical gaslighting communist rhetoric.
It's also the SOP of Fox News.

Uh huh, but only Fox News amiright.

Not your news channel.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 12, 2021, 05:08:12 PM
Imagine saying something so mind-blowingly stupid then backtracking and pretending it's a nuanced position...typical gaslighting communist rhetoric.
It's also the SOP of Fox News.

Uh huh, but only Fox News amiright.

Not your news channel.
Which news channel is mine?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on May 12, 2021, 07:29:29 PM
https://principia-scientific.com/57-top-scientists-and-doctors-stop-all-covid-vaccinations/

So if one of THOSE dudes were my doctor, I am sure the communists would say no no no don’t believe these obvious lunatics!

Right? RIGHT!.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 12, 2021, 08:38:16 PM
https://principia-scientific.com/57-top-scientists-and-doctors-stop-all-covid-vaccinations/

So if one of THOSE dudes were my doctor, I am sure the communists would say no no no don’t believe these obvious lunatics!

Right? RIGHT!.

Have you looked at the author list? Your link doesn't show either the authors or the references for the article, but the original is apparently at

https://en-volve.com/2021/05/08/57-top-scientists-and-doctors-release-shocking-study-on-covid-vaccines-and-demand-immediate-stop-to-all-vaccinations/

I'm including it below.

Quote
Roxana Bruno1, Peter McCullough2, Teresa Forcades i Vila3, Alexandra Henrion-Caude4, Teresa García-Gasca5, Galina P. Zaitzeva6, Sally Priester7, María J. Martínez Albarracín8, Alejandro Sousa-Escandon9, Fernando López Mirones10, Bartomeu Payeras Cifre11, Almudena Zaragoza Velilla10, Leopoldo M. Borini1, Mario Mas1, Ramiro Salazar1, Edgardo Schinder1, Eduardo A Yahbes1, Marcela Witt1, Mariana Salmeron1, Patricia Fernández1, Miriam M. Marchesini1, Alberto J. Kajihara1, Marisol V. de la Riva1, Patricia J. Chimeno1, Paola A. Grellet1, Matelda Lisdero1, Pamela Mas1, Abelardo J. Gatica Baudo12, Elisabeth Retamoza12, Oscar Botta13, Chinda C. Brandolino13, Javier Sciuto14, Mario Cabrera Avivar14, Mauricio Castillo15, Patricio Villarroel15, Emilia P. Poblete Rojas15, Bárbara Aguayo15, Dan I. Macías Flores15, Jose V. Rossell16, Julio C. Sarmiento17, Victor Andrade-Sotomayor17, Wilfredo R. Stokes Baltazar18, Virna Cedeño Escobar19, Ulises Arrúa20, Atilio Farina del Río21, Tatiana Campos Esquivel22, Patricia Callisperis23, María Eugenia Barrientos24, Karina Acevedo-Whitehouse5,*

1Epidemiólogos Argentinos Metadisciplinarios. República Argentina.
2Baylor University Medical Center. Dallas, Texas, USA.
3Monestir de Sant Benet de Montserrat, Montserrat, Spain
4INSERM U781 Hôpital Necker-Enfants Malades, Université Paris Descartes-Sorbonne Cité, Institut Imagine, Paris, France.
5School of Natural Sciences. Autonomous University of Querétaro, Querétaro, Mexico.
6Retired Professor of Medical Immunology. Universidad de Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico.
7Médicos por la Verdad Puerto Rico. Ashford Medical Center. San Juan, Puerto Rico.
8Retired Professor of Clinical Diagnostic Processes. University of Murcia, Murcia, Spain
9Urologist Hospital Comarcal de Monforte, University of Santiago de Compostela, Spain.
10Biólogos por la Verdad, Spain.
11Retired Biologist. University of Barcelona. Specialized in Microbiology. Barcelona, Spain.
12Center for Integrative Medicine MICAEL (Medicina Integrativa Centro Antroposófico Educando en Libertad). Mendoza, República Argentina.
13Médicos por la Verdad Argentina. República Argentina. ´
14Médicos por la Verdad Uruguay. República Oriental del Uruguay.
15Médicos por la Libertad Chile. República de Chile.
16Physician, orthopedic specialist. República de Chile.
17Médicos por la Verdad Perú. República del Perú.
18Médicos por la Verdad Guatemala. República de Guatemala.
19Concepto Azul S.A. Ecuador.
20Médicos por la Verdad Brasil. Brasil.
21Médicos por la Verdad Paraguay.
22Médicos por la Costa Rica.
23Médicos por la Verdad Bolivia.
24Médicos por la Verdad El Salvador.
* Correspondence: Karina Acevedo-Whitehouse, karina.acevedo.whitehouse@uaq.mx

I searched on a handful of these, and I turned up only social media or Spanish-language news about their covid claims.

If one of these happens to be your doctor, then it's no big deal for me. Though, I would suggest you get a second opinion before taking chlorine dioxide pills from Acevedo-Whitehouse.

I do note that the article is written to appear like a scientific paper, but it clearly hasn't been reviewed by anyone. There are typos even in the author list, and most of them don't have credentials listed or practice listed. There is no mention in the original about what journal it was submitted to.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: oggsmash on May 12, 2021, 09:54:46 PM
Imagine saying something so mind-blowingly stupid then backtracking and pretending it's a nuanced position...typical gaslighting communist rhetoric.
It's also the SOP of Fox News.

Uh huh, but only Fox News amiright.

Not your news channel.
Which news channel is mine?

  It doesnt matter, if they have a channel they lie, gaslight and do the bidding of massive corporations.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Mistwell on May 12, 2021, 10:51:52 PM
But muh science.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07993.pdf

Money shots:

"Most fundamentally, the groups we studied believe that science is a process, and not an institution."

"Indeed, anti-maskers often reveal themselves to be more sophisticated in their understanding of how scientific knowledge is socially constructed than their ideological adversaries, who espouse naïve realism about the “objective” truth of public health data."

"In other words, anti-maskers value unmediated access to information and privilege personal research and direct reading over “expert” interpretations."

"Its members value individual initiative and ingenuity, trusting scientific analysis only insofar as they can replicate it themselves by accessing and manipulating the data firsthand."

"They are highly reflexive about the inherently biased nature of any analysis, and resent what they view as the arrogant self-righteousness of scientific elites."

"Many of the users believe that the most important metrics are missing from government-released data."

"One user wrote: 'Coding data is a big deal—and those definitions should be offered transparently by every state. Without a national guideline—we are left with this mess'."

I can't tell if I'm being punked, or if this is a cry for help akin to POWs blinking Morse Code, or they're actually serious.

It's almost like there should be some way to make sure the science is correct.  Like maybe some sort of "method" whereby transparent data and processes are scrutinized and replicated or disproved by other scientists conducting the same research.

I'm not anti-vaxx -- I've been to Egypt so I have more vaccinations than the Canadian average -- I just don't trust these junk mRNA gene therapies that we're not allowed to call gene therapies according to my "government."

SO get the J&J vaccine.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 12, 2021, 11:52:18 PM
Imagine saying something so mind-blowingly stupid then backtracking and pretending it's a nuanced position...typical gaslighting communist rhetoric.
It's also the SOP of Fox News.

Uh huh, but only Fox News amiright.

Not your news channel.
Which news channel is mine?

Thats the point.  Only your channel is the one talking the straight talk. 

Its everyone else thats crazy  :o
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on May 13, 2021, 09:20:40 AM
If one of these happens to be your doctor, then it's no big deal for me. Though, I would suggest you get a second opinion before taking chlorine dioxide pills from Acevedo-Whitehouse.

So I'm not supposed to do my own research and just blindly follow what my doctor says, but also if I am told by my doctor to do something that goes against the current CCP-sponsored brainwashing I need a second opinion. Which one is it, shill? Why would I ever seek a second opinion unless I had researched a treatment and thought it sounded suspect?

You are so fucking retarded it's not even funny. Thanks for PROVING IT beyond a shadow of a doubt. Are you at least getting paid to promote Chinese propaganda?

Eagerly awaiting the newest squirmy monkey dance where you try to justify everything you've said while maintaining your alleged air of indifference while parroting the MSM. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad. It also makes me weep for legitimate science because people like you with higher degrees literally cannot comprehend you are nothing more than empty shells spewing out whatever you're told to spew. No actual critical thinking skills.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: rgalex on May 13, 2021, 11:25:07 AM
Ohio is opening up on June 2nd.  Maybe.  All the health orders, except ones relating to nursing homes and assisted living, are being lifted.  It will then be up to individual businesses to decide on what masking and social distancing they want to enforce, if any.

This is despite not reaching any of the goalposts he's previously set, like only 50/100,000 cases.  Most likely because the Ohio GOP had already passed a bill, and overrode the governor's veto, to end all the health orders.  It would have gone into effect June 28th.  So now DeWine gets to say he removed all the restrictions and anyone not really paying attention will think he's a great guy.

I will note that DeWine just had to get one more masked holiday in there before letting go.  Couldn't lift it for the Memorial Day weekend.

Also, far as I know, there is no current talk about passing any sort of anti-vaccine passport type of legislation like a few other states have.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Zelen on May 13, 2021, 05:07:48 PM
I am generally very pro-science, meaning true peer-reviewed research in mainstream journals. Earlier, you brought up the case of smoking and tobacco companies earlier -- but I think you're drawing different conclusions from that example.

The tobacco companies had hundreds of millions of dollars, but they were completely unable to buy any mainstream peer-reviewed research that refuted the link with cancer. All the traditional institutions continued to publish results showing a clear link between cigarettes and cancer. Instead, the companies mainly tried to use PR and obfuscation to tell people "don't believe the scientists". They created their own research institute (TIRC) and put in place the handful of scientists who disputed the link, but TIRC didn't actually produce any peer-reviewed paper disputing the link. Instead, they mostly just created PR, and opinions from a few selected individual scientists like Clarence Little. The papers they actually published were mostly unrelated to the tobacco-cancer link. I thought the book "The Emperor of All Maladies" had a good account of it, and was a good read in general.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7170627-the-emperor-of-all-maladies

I think it's a great example of how opinion pieces and PR are easily bought, but mainstream science is not. Money could buy a handful of corrupt or simply incorrect scientists, but it didn't change the mass of research.

As with all analogies the purpose is not to be an exact 1:1 relationship. The point I was making is that even highly intelligent people have a big blind spot when it comes to questioning how their own work fits in to a bigger picture.

If the authors of the paper are going to invoke the Tobacco industry analogy, which they did, then it's worth taking the analogy they themselves used and seeing if the particular framing they presented is a good match to the phenomena they are discussing.

The only purpose of raising the point at all is that it's fairly self-evident that the people who are arguing for transparency in government reporting, want to conduct independent analysis of data, and argue for individual rights & freedoms to make informed medical choices doesn't map very well onto people who were being paid by BigTobacco so they could sell more product. However the authors of this paper are being paid to produce work which utilizes numerous nonscientific rhetorical tactics (highly colored language, appeal to authority, non-sequitur, biased framing, etc) to undermine the credibility of independent researchers without actually demonstrating flaws with the analyses they may have generated. This type of generalized endeavor is fundamentally rhetorical, not scientific.

I haven't read the book you're citing, so I can't speak to anything specific that it says. However the perspective you're painting with regard to academic work seems rosy. While you're free to put as much faith in the academic credentials & institutions as you like, how scientifically-evidenced is that belief? This is actually an interesting question worth studying (https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124).

The larger point where I suspect the greatest difference of opinion occurs is on whether the institutions & academic literature are corruptible. I don't presume that academic institutions are uniquely resistant to corruption. Rather, the relationship between government & NGOs & academia is an inherent moral hazard. It's really impossible to even fully articulate the scope of the problem. I suspect it's hard for individual companies to exert considerable influence on academia. However, the people who own the money printers for the world's global fiat currency definitely can.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 06:14:35 PM
If one of these happens to be your doctor, then it's no big deal for me. Though, I would suggest you get a second opinion before taking chlorine dioxide pills from Acevedo-Whitehouse.

So I'm not supposed to do my own research and just blindly follow what my doctor says, but also if I am told by my doctor to do something that goes against the current CCP-sponsored brainwashing I need a second opinion. Which one is it, shill? Why would I ever seek a second opinion unless I had researched a treatment and thought it sounded suspect?

You are so fucking retarded it's not even funny. Thanks for PROVING IT beyond a shadow of a doubt. Are you at least getting paid to promote Chinese propaganda?

Eagerly awaiting the newest squirmy monkey dance where you try to justify everything you've said while maintaining your alleged air of indifference while parroting the MSM. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad. It also makes me weep for legitimate science because people like you with higher degrees literally cannot comprehend you are nothing more than empty shells spewing out whatever you're told to spew. No actual critical thinking skills.


seriously this shit doesn't get ignore-listed? you can read this on any hausfrau's facebook feed any day without the obnoxious duckface
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 13, 2021, 08:29:47 PM
If one of these happens to be your doctor, then it's no big deal for me. Though, I would suggest you get a second opinion before taking chlorine dioxide pills from Acevedo-Whitehouse.

So I'm not supposed to do my own research and just blindly follow what my doctor says, but also if I am told by my doctor to do something that goes against the current CCP-sponsored brainwashing I need a second opinion. Which one is it, shill? Why would I ever seek a second opinion unless I had researched a treatment and thought it sounded suspect?

You are so fucking retarded it's not even funny. Thanks for PROVING IT beyond a shadow of a doubt. Are you at least getting paid to promote Chinese propaganda?

Eagerly awaiting the newest squirmy monkey dance where you try to justify everything you've said while maintaining your alleged air of indifference while parroting the MSM. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad. It also makes me weep for legitimate science because people like you with higher degrees literally cannot comprehend you are nothing more than empty shells spewing out whatever you're told to spew. No actual critical thinking skills.


seriously this shit doesn't get ignore-listed? you can read this on any hausfrau's facebook feed any day without the obnoxious duckface

Who the fuck are you talking to? If you want to go out with Brad, just ask him. This passive aggressive shit isn't attractive to guys.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 13, 2021, 08:40:50 PM
I am generally very pro-science, meaning true peer-reviewed research in mainstream journals. Earlier, you brought up the case of smoking and tobacco companies earlier -- but I think you're drawing different conclusions from that example.

I haven't read the book you're citing, so I can't speak to anything specific that it says. However the perspective you're painting with regard to academic work seems rosy. While you're free to put as much faith in the academic credentials & institutions as you like, how scientifically-evidenced is that belief? This is actually an interesting question worth studying (https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124).

The larger point where I suspect the greatest difference of opinion occurs is on whether the institutions & academic literature are corruptible. I don't presume that academic institutions are uniquely resistant to corruption. Rather, the relationship between government & NGOs & academia is an inherent moral hazard. It's really impossible to even fully articulate the scope of the problem. I suspect it's hard for individual companies to exert considerable influence on academia. However, the people who own the money printers for the world's global fiat currency definitely can.

Of course scientific institutions and academic literature are corruptible and can be wrong. But *so is everything else*, so that's not really a useful statement.

The big question is - how reliable are scientific results *compared to other sources of information*?

There are plenty of anti-establishment figures like bloggers and Youtubers who claim the scientific establishment is lying about issue X. Now, the scientific establishment might be corrupt and/or wrong on this point. There are examples of this happening in the past. However, it is also possible that the anti-establishment bloggers and/or Youtubers are corrupt and/or wrong. Plenty of people have just been trying to make a buck by selling snake oil or just selling books or clicks they get from their audience. Overall, I think the track record of science critic bloggers and Youtubers is far worse than the scientific establishment. To make this concrete - if someone is self-educated by Youtube videos and other non-scientific sources as well as personal experience, would I want them handling my medical issues compared to someone who is a credentialed doctor from a medical school? Personally, I'd want the establishment-credentialed doctor.

Your link is a study saying "Why Most Published Research Findings Are False". First of all, that itself is a single paper with a single author, so it might itself be wrong. But in the bigger picture, I agree that plenty of individual peer-reviewed papers do turn out to be wrong in hindsight. But even if only 40% of individual peer-reviewed papers are right, the question is, what percentage of predictions from science critics are right?

The methodology of science has lots of safeguards against different forms of corruption - like peer review from widely scattered institutions, independent verification, open publication standards, and tenure. None of them work perfectly, but again - these has to be compared to what is done by other sources.


If the authors of the paper are going to invoke the Tobacco industry analogy, which they did, then it's worth taking the analogy they themselves used and seeing if the particular framing they presented is a good match to the phenomena they are discussing.

The only purpose of raising the point at all is that it's fairly self-evident that the people who are arguing for transparency in government reporting, want to conduct independent analysis of data, and argue for individual rights & freedoms to make informed medical choices doesn't map very well onto people who were being paid by BigTobacco so they could sell more product. However the authors of this paper are being paid to produce work which utilizes numerous nonscientific rhetorical tactics (highly colored language, appeal to authority, non-sequitur, biased framing, etc) to undermine the credibility of independent researchers without actually demonstrating flaws with the analyses they may have generated. This type of generalized endeavor is fundamentally rhetorical, not scientific.

OK, you're talking about the human-computer interaction paper linked below from Ghostmaker. I've now gone through a bunch of it, though I haven't read it completely. I'd prefer to stay on the general issues rather than get too far into just this one paper, but I'll give my two cents.

But muh science.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07993.pdf

I can't tell if I'm being punked, or if this is a cry for help akin to POWs blinking Morse Code, or they're actually serious.

This paper itself is a serious work of propaganda. From the language constructions it uses ("anti-maskers"), to the ludicrous injection of "white supremacy" or the "attempted coup." WTF.

It's kind of stunning to see that even ostensibly intelligent people at MIT have no self-reflection in a paper like this. They can invoke something like the Tobacco industry and how it obfuscated the harmful impact of its products for decades, failing to see they themselves are now the ones who acting as the tools of the big Money/Power interests and their work is directly targeted against the type people who eventually revealed that Tobacco industry had been cooking the books.

Overall, I agree with you. The qualitative side of this paper is clearly biased - especially in that there is an "Anti-Mask Discourse Analysis" section but no "Pro-Mask Discourse Analysis". Thus, there isn't any comparative reflection to show whether pro-mask people are any more rational than anti-mask people. That said, I don't see any reason to think the paper is propaganda or corrupt per se. It's hugely biased, but I suspect the authors genuinely believe in their view - i.e. they would say the same thing even if the government wasn't paying them.

I was a bit surprised at some of the overtly political asides in it, like the "coup" reference. Then again, this is a conference paper, which I think mean it's not peer-reviewed research but an adaptation of a talk.

I have pretty low expectations of non-peer-reviewed social science papers. Mainstream social sciences are a step above cultural studies and gender studies, but not by a lot.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 13, 2021, 09:29:19 PM
As an aside, I'm having a discussion of Critical Race Theory on my Facebook, where a friend has criticized me for supporting the meritocracy of institutional science -- because meritocracies are inherently anti-egalitarian. That has a lot of parallels to the view that institutional science is corrupt and serves the controlling power.

I find it interesting how opposite viewpoints can converge.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: oggsmash on May 13, 2021, 09:52:51 PM
As an aside, I'm having a discussion of Critical Race Theory on my Facebook, where a friend has criticized me for supporting the meritocracy of institutional science -- because meritocracies are inherently anti-egalitarian. That has a lot of parallels to the view that institutional science is corrupt and serves the controlling power.

I find it interesting how opposite viewpoints can converge.
    I can not imagine any discussion I could have around CRT.  There are zero merits to it, and the people pushing it just flat out hate white people.  I have no time to try to make racists see reason. 
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Eirikrautha on May 13, 2021, 09:57:09 PM
As an aside, I'm having a discussion of Critical Race Theory on my Facebook, where a friend has criticized me for supporting the meritocracy of institutional science -- because meritocracies are inherently anti-egalitarian. That has a lot of parallels to the view that institutional science is corrupt and serves the controlling power.

I find it interesting how opposite viewpoints can converge.
Those views have no parallels whatsoever.  That's well-poisoning at its finest.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: oggsmash on May 13, 2021, 10:00:01 PM
As an aside, I'm having a discussion of Critical Race Theory on my Facebook, where a friend has criticized me for supporting the meritocracy of institutional science -- because meritocracies are inherently anti-egalitarian. That has a lot of parallels to the view that institutional science is corrupt and serves the controlling power.

I find it interesting how opposite viewpoints can converge.
Those views have no parallels whatsoever.  That's well-poisoning at its finest.
  I would agree.  Once we pop CRT out we can forget reason, science, or anything close to rational.  I would sooner have a discussion with a 3 year old having a temper tantrum than a person who is a proponent of CRT.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on May 13, 2021, 10:23:44 PM
Who the fuck are you talking to? If you want to go out with Brad, just ask him. This passive aggressive shit isn't attractive to guys.

That faggot is on ignore so when you quote him I have to see his pathetic attempts to win my heart. Sad!

Also, I am a big proponent of CRT. Whenever someone starts talking about it as legitimate I immediately know they’re a massive racist and can safely ignore them.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 13, 2021, 10:51:32 PM
As an aside, I'm having a discussion of Critical Race Theory on my Facebook, where a friend has criticized me for supporting the meritocracy of institutional science -- because meritocracies are inherently anti-egalitarian. That has a lot of parallels to the view that institutional science is corrupt and serves the controlling power.

I find it interesting how opposite viewpoints can converge.
    I can not imagine any discussion I could have around CRT.  There are zero merits to it, and the people pushing it just flat out hate white people.  I have no time to try to make racists see reason.

Yep. The problem with CRT isn't that it's embedded in culture and acedemia (that's another topic) it's that it's massivlely racist and full of shit.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:04:18 PM
If one of these happens to be your doctor, then it's no big deal for me. Though, I would suggest you get a second opinion before taking chlorine dioxide pills from Acevedo-Whitehouse.

So I'm not supposed to do my own research and just blindly follow what my doctor says, but also if I am told by my doctor to do something that goes against the current CCP-sponsored brainwashing I need a second opinion. Which one is it, shill? Why would I ever seek a second opinion unless I had researched a treatment and thought it sounded suspect?

You are so fucking retarded it's not even funny. Thanks for PROVING IT beyond a shadow of a doubt. Are you at least getting paid to promote Chinese propaganda?

Eagerly awaiting the newest squirmy monkey dance where you try to justify everything you've said while maintaining your alleged air of indifference while parroting the MSM. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad. It also makes me weep for legitimate science because people like you with higher degrees literally cannot comprehend you are nothing more than empty shells spewing out whatever you're told to spew. No actual critical thinking skills.


seriously this shit doesn't get ignore-listed? you can read this on any hausfrau's facebook feed any day without the obnoxious duckface

Who the fuck are you talking to? If you want to go out with Brad, just ask him. This passive aggressive shit isn't attractive to guys.

myself, the only person that matters here obv. you're welcome to comment if you want.

also that second and third sentence contradict.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:12 PM
As an aside, I'm having a discussion of Critical Race Theory on my Facebook, where a friend has criticized me for supporting the meritocracy of institutional science -- because meritocracies are inherently anti-egalitarian. That has a lot of parallels to the view that institutional science is corrupt and serves the controlling power.

I find it interesting how opposite viewpoints can converge.
    I can not imagine any discussion I could have around CRT.  There are zero merits to it, and the people pushing it just flat out hate white people.  I have no time to try to make racists see reason.

Yep. The problem with CRT isn't that it's embedded in culture and acedemia (that's another topic) it's that it's massivlely racist and full of shit.

well yes the point is to incite the race war, so it has to be racist. What's the problem here.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 13, 2021, 11:08:20 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: oggsmash on May 13, 2021, 11:12:51 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:15:14 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: oggsmash on May 13, 2021, 11:21:24 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

  You strike me as a complete queef who has never been a fight, much less had a gun pointed at him.  I get you like to troll, but you could at least be creative with it.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:27:16 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

  You strike me as a complete queef who has never been a fight, much less had a gun pointed at him.  I get you like to troll, but you could at least be creative with it.

why should you get to enjoy the trolling? you might get amused by creativity, and fuck that, why do you deserve it?

you strike me correctly, i haven't, the goal is to get shot in the race riots and die, finally. but I expect that's true for most of the larpers talkin about how they got guns and will use them on the anteefer if they come shootin any day now.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 13, 2021, 11:34:00 PM
As an aside, I'm having a discussion of Critical Race Theory on my Facebook, where a friend has criticized me for supporting the meritocracy of institutional science -- because meritocracies are inherently anti-egalitarian. That has a lot of parallels to the view that institutional science is corrupt and serves the controlling power.

I find it interesting how opposite viewpoints can converge.
    I can not imagine any discussion I could have around CRT.  There are zero merits to it, and the people pushing it just flat out hate white people.  I have no time to try to make racists see reason.

Yep. The problem with CRT isn't that it's embedded in culture and acedemia (that's another topic) it's that it's massivlely racist and full of shit.

well yes the point is to incite the race war, so it has to be racist. What's the problem here.

What makes you think I give a shit about your input?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: oggsmash on May 13, 2021, 11:41:02 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

  You strike me as a complete queef who has never been a fight, much less had a gun pointed at him.  I get you like to troll, but you could at least be creative with it.

why should you get to enjoy the trolling? you might get amused by creativity, and fuck that, why do you deserve it?

you strike me correctly, i haven't, the goal is to get shot in the race riots and die, finally. but I expect that's true for most of the larpers talkin about how they got guns and will use them on the anteefer if they come shootin any day now.

   Look at it this way, if you have the gun, you do not need a riot.  You can go ahead and suck start it right in your living room.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:45:13 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

  You strike me as a complete queef who has never been a fight, much less had a gun pointed at him.  I get you like to troll, but you could at least be creative with it.

why should you get to enjoy the trolling? you might get amused by creativity, and fuck that, why do you deserve it?

you strike me correctly, i haven't, the goal is to get shot in the race riots and die, finally. but I expect that's true for most of the larpers talkin about how they got guns and will use them on the anteefer if they come shootin any day now.

   Look at it this way, if you have the gun, you do not need a riot.  You can go ahead and suck start it right in your living room.

suicide clauses in life insurance policies are a bitch, so you are not yet deprived of this quality posting content

anyway what were we pretending to have opinions about that weren't just the usual right-wing circle jerk here? is it vaccines and how everybody that doesn't already agree with us is a chinese plant?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: oggsmash on May 14, 2021, 12:11:54 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

  You strike me as a complete queef who has never been a fight, much less had a gun pointed at him.  I get you like to troll, but you could at least be creative with it.

why should you get to enjoy the trolling? you might get amused by creativity, and fuck that, why do you deserve it?

you strike me correctly, i haven't, the goal is to get shot in the race riots and die, finally. but I expect that's true for most of the larpers talkin about how they got guns and will use them on the anteefer if they come shootin any day now.

   Look at it this way, if you have the gun, you do not need a riot.  You can go ahead and suck start it right in your living room.

suicide clauses in life insurance policies are a bitch, so you are not yet deprived of this quality posting content

anyway what were we pretending to have opinions about that weren't just the usual right-wing circle jerk here? is it vaccines and how everybody that doesn't already agree with us is a chinese plant?

  Dont know what right wing means anymore.  Pull your pants down and hang yourself then, everyone will think you were a bit of a freak cranking it while strangling yourself, will be ruled an accident.  You get the money, save a bullet, and much more considerate of the people who have to clean up after the fact.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 14, 2021, 12:28:50 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

  You strike me as a complete queef who has never been a fight, much less had a gun pointed at him.  I get you like to troll, but you could at least be creative with it.

why should you get to enjoy the trolling? you might get amused by creativity, and fuck that, why do you deserve it?

you strike me correctly, i haven't, the goal is to get shot in the race riots and die, finally. but I expect that's true for most of the larpers talkin about how they got guns and will use them on the anteefer if they come shootin any day now.

   Look at it this way, if you have the gun, you do not need a riot.  You can go ahead and suck start it right in your living room.

suicide clauses in life insurance policies are a bitch, so you are not yet deprived of this quality posting content

anyway what were we pretending to have opinions about that weren't just the usual right-wing circle jerk here? is it vaccines and how everybody that doesn't already agree with us is a chinese plant?

  Dont know what right wing means anymore.  Pull your pants down and hang yourself then, everyone will think you were a bit of a freak cranking it while strangling yourself, will be ruled an accident.  You get the money, save a bullet, and much more considerate of the people who have to clean up after the fact.

Bobcat Goldthwait ruined that gig thanks a fucking lot mr director. me neither but since everybody here got banned for being it i figure there must be some patterns. unless they just like the ol' hub-wheel-n-feel without much thought behind it, pure reflex and spite.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 14, 2021, 01:18:36 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

  You strike me as a complete queef who has never been a fight, much less had a gun pointed at him.  I get you like to troll, but you could at least be creative with it.

why should you get to enjoy the trolling? you might get amused by creativity, and fuck that, why do you deserve it?

you strike me correctly, i haven't, the goal is to get shot in the race riots and die, finally. but I expect that's true for most of the larpers talkin about how they got guns and will use them on the anteefer if they come shootin any day now.

   Look at it this way, if you have the gun, you do not need a riot.  You can go ahead and suck start it right in your living room.

suicide clauses in life insurance policies are a bitch, so you are not yet deprived of this quality posting content

anyway what were we pretending to have opinions about that weren't just the usual right-wing circle jerk here? is it vaccines and how everybody that doesn't already agree with us is a chinese plant?

  Dont know what right wing means anymore.  Pull your pants down and hang yourself then, everyone will think you were a bit of a freak cranking it while strangling yourself, will be ruled an accident.  You get the money, save a bullet, and much more considerate of the people who have to clean up after the fact.

Bobcat Goldthwait ruined that gig thanks a fucking lot mr director. me neither but since everybody here got banned for being it i figure there must be some patterns. unless they just like the ol' hub-wheel-n-feel without much thought behind it, pure reflex and spite.

You seem awfully obsessesd about who got banned here.  ;D
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 14, 2021, 01:20:42 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

  You strike me as a complete queef who has never been a fight, much less had a gun pointed at him.  I get you like to troll, but you could at least be creative with it.

why should you get to enjoy the trolling? you might get amused by creativity, and fuck that, why do you deserve it?

you strike me correctly, i haven't, the goal is to get shot in the race riots and die, finally. but I expect that's true for most of the larpers talkin about how they got guns and will use them on the anteefer if they come shootin any day now.

   Look at it this way, if you have the gun, you do not need a riot.  You can go ahead and suck start it right in your living room.

suicide clauses in life insurance policies are a bitch, so you are not yet deprived of this quality posting content

anyway what were we pretending to have opinions about that weren't just the usual right-wing circle jerk here? is it vaccines and how everybody that doesn't already agree with us is a chinese plant?

  Dont know what right wing means anymore.  Pull your pants down and hang yourself then, everyone will think you were a bit of a freak cranking it while strangling yourself, will be ruled an accident.  You get the money, save a bullet, and much more considerate of the people who have to clean up after the fact.

Bobcat Goldthwait ruined that gig thanks a fucking lot mr director. me neither but since everybody here got banned for being it i figure there must be some patterns. unless they just like the ol' hub-wheel-n-feel without much thought behind it, pure reflex and spite.

You seem awfully obsessesd about who got banned here.  ;D

I am obsessed with who got banned here, if you got a problem with that fuck you too.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 14, 2021, 01:58:03 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

  You strike me as a complete queef who has never been a fight, much less had a gun pointed at him.  I get you like to troll, but you could at least be creative with it.

why should you get to enjoy the trolling? you might get amused by creativity, and fuck that, why do you deserve it?

you strike me correctly, i haven't, the goal is to get shot in the race riots and die, finally. but I expect that's true for most of the larpers talkin about how they got guns and will use them on the anteefer if they come shootin any day now.

   Look at it this way, if you have the gun, you do not need a riot.  You can go ahead and suck start it right in your living room.

suicide clauses in life insurance policies are a bitch, so you are not yet deprived of this quality posting content

anyway what were we pretending to have opinions about that weren't just the usual right-wing circle jerk here? is it vaccines and how everybody that doesn't already agree with us is a chinese plant?

  Dont know what right wing means anymore.  Pull your pants down and hang yourself then, everyone will think you were a bit of a freak cranking it while strangling yourself, will be ruled an accident.  You get the money, save a bullet, and much more considerate of the people who have to clean up after the fact.

Bobcat Goldthwait ruined that gig thanks a fucking lot mr director. me neither but since everybody here got banned for being it i figure there must be some patterns. unless they just like the ol' hub-wheel-n-feel without much thought behind it, pure reflex and spite.

You seem awfully obsessesd about who got banned here.  ;D

I am obsessed with who got banned here, if you got a problem with that fuck you too.

Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 14, 2021, 02:08:43 AM
rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

If you are really hard core then you dont use guns that fire bullets, you use guns that fire smaller guns.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 14, 2021, 02:28:28 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean for conversation to be derailed on Critical Race Theory. I just found myself arguing from two sides that institutional science is a tool of those in power.

If people want to discuss Critical Race Theory, I'll submit to Pundit for a new topic on it.
   CRT is not a side.  It is fucktards who need a bit of reality.

rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

  You strike me as a complete queef who has never been a fight, much less had a gun pointed at him.  I get you like to troll, but you could at least be creative with it.

why should you get to enjoy the trolling? you might get amused by creativity, and fuck that, why do you deserve it?

you strike me correctly, i haven't, the goal is to get shot in the race riots and die, finally. but I expect that's true for most of the larpers talkin about how they got guns and will use them on the anteefer if they come shootin any day now.

   Look at it this way, if you have the gun, you do not need a riot.  You can go ahead and suck start it right in your living room.

suicide clauses in life insurance policies are a bitch, so you are not yet deprived of this quality posting content

anyway what were we pretending to have opinions about that weren't just the usual right-wing circle jerk here? is it vaccines and how everybody that doesn't already agree with us is a chinese plant?

  Dont know what right wing means anymore.  Pull your pants down and hang yourself then, everyone will think you were a bit of a freak cranking it while strangling yourself, will be ruled an accident.  You get the money, save a bullet, and much more considerate of the people who have to clean up after the fact.

Bobcat Goldthwait ruined that gig thanks a fucking lot mr director. me neither but since everybody here got banned for being it i figure there must be some patterns. unless they just like the ol' hub-wheel-n-feel without much thought behind it, pure reflex and spite.

You seem awfully obsessesd about who got banned here.  ;D

I am obsessed with who got banned here, if you got a problem with that fuck you too.



good post, better than anything you'd have written. A+
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 14, 2021, 02:28:56 AM
rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

If you are really hard core then you dont use guns that fire bullets, you use guns that fire smaller guns.

i think you gotta go faux-retro and find guns that fire arrowheads
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 14, 2021, 04:03:23 AM
rhey just need more bullets in their guns so things can get started, that's all. and more guns.

If you are really hard core then you dont use guns that fire bullets, you use guns that fire smaller guns.

i think you gotta go faux-retro and find guns that fire arrowheads

(https://external-preview.redd.it/HEunZt13dAw8ucKA9Qkpq9A0HzkT9f8684ZpDJSzeUM.jpg?auto=webp&s=6a6a3f46ce62723ac22e70ccbc6e98b9e681404c)
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on May 14, 2021, 12:28:47 PM
At this point, those who haven’t taken the vaccine are probably not planning in taking it any time soon, if at all. I believe everyone is, and should be entitled to choose. What worries me is the future restrictions that can be put in place particularly related to travel and entertainment. That in one way or another would force you to take the vaccine in order to go back to normal.

I think the aftermath is far more scary than the actual pandemic. Inflation already kicking in with very little signs of actual recovery at this particular moment. Almost certain there’s another multi trillion relief on the way which would do little for the country and worsen inflation, etc. I’m legit concerned for the future. Optimism alone won’t bring the economy back.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 14, 2021, 02:06:21 PM
At this point, those who haven’t taken the vaccine are probably not planning in taking it any time soon, if at all. I believe everyone is, and should be entitled to choose. What worries me is the future restrictions that can be put in place particularly related to travel and entertainment. That in one way or another would force you to take the vaccine in order to go back to normal.

My FLGS, bless them, put up a status update today requiring the non-vaccinated to wear masks, while the vaccinated do not have to. That's their perogative, but I don't plan to patronize them. I hadn't planned on any kind of "getting back to normal" until the end of the year, so it's no huge letdown.
Will they require vaccination eventually? Dunno. I don't want to take any of these vaccines until they have full FDA approval and the government lifts the restrictions of the PREP act regarding these vaccines.


Quote
I think the aftermath is far more scary than the actual pandemic. Inflation already kicking in with very little signs of actual recovery at this particular moment. Almost certain there’s another multi trillion relief on the way which would do little for the country and worsen inflation, etc. I’m legit concerned for the future. Optimism alone won’t bring the economy back.

Yep. This isn't over. It's just beginning.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: KingCheops on May 14, 2021, 03:22:06 PM
At this point, those who haven’t taken the vaccine are probably not planning in taking it any time soon, if at all. I believe everyone is, and should be entitled to choose. What worries me is the future restrictions that can be put in place particularly related to travel and entertainment. That in one way or another would force you to take the vaccine in order to go back to normal.

My FLGS, bless them, put up a status update today requiring the non-vaccinated to wear masks, while the vaccinated do not have to. That's their perogative, but I don't plan to patronize them. I hadn't planned on any kind of "getting back to normal" until the end of the year, so it's no huge letdown.
Will they require vaccination eventually? Dunno. I don't want to take any of these vaccines until they have full FDA approval and the government lifts the restrictions of the PREP act regarding these vaccines.


Quote
I think the aftermath is far more scary than the actual pandemic. Inflation already kicking in with very little signs of actual recovery at this particular moment. Almost certain there’s another multi trillion relief on the way which would do little for the country and worsen inflation, etc. I’m legit concerned for the future. Optimism alone won’t bring the economy back.

Yep. This isn't over. It's just beginning.

How would they enforce that?  Do they ask for your papers as you enter?  "yeah I caved and got it last week guys"
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 14, 2021, 03:32:17 PM
At this point, those who haven’t taken the vaccine are probably not planning in taking it any time soon, if at all. I believe everyone is, and should be entitled to choose. What worries me is the future restrictions that can be put in place particularly related to travel and entertainment. That in one way or another would force you to take the vaccine in order to go back to normal.

My FLGS, bless them, put up a status update today requiring the non-vaccinated to wear masks, while the vaccinated do not have to. That's their perogative, but I don't plan to patronize them. I hadn't planned on any kind of "getting back to normal" until the end of the year, so it's no huge letdown.
Will they require vaccination eventually? Dunno. I don't want to take any of these vaccines until they have full FDA approval and the government lifts the restrictions of the PREP act regarding these vaccines.


Quote
I think the aftermath is far more scary than the actual pandemic. Inflation already kicking in with very little signs of actual recovery at this particular moment. Almost certain there’s another multi trillion relief on the way which would do little for the country and worsen inflation, etc. I’m legit concerned for the future. Optimism alone won’t bring the economy back.

Yep. This isn't over. It's just beginning.

How would they enforce that?  Do they ask for your papers as you enter?  "yeah I caved and got it last week guys"

Gov. Inslee has laid the ground work for requiring proof of vaccination.

https://www.governor.wa.gov/news-media/inslee-announces-update-spectator-event-and-religious-organization-guidance
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 14, 2021, 03:49:28 PM
At this point, those who haven’t taken the vaccine are probably not planning in taking it any time soon, if at all. I believe everyone is, and should be entitled to choose. What worries me is the future restrictions that can be put in place particularly related to travel and entertainment. That in one way or another would force you to take the vaccine in order to go back to normal.

My FLGS, bless them, put up a status update today requiring the non-vaccinated to wear masks, while the vaccinated do not have to. That's their perogative, but I don't plan to patronize them. I hadn't planned on any kind of "getting back to normal" until the end of the year, so it's no huge letdown.
Will they require vaccination eventually? Dunno. I don't want to take any of these vaccines until they have full FDA approval and the government lifts the restrictions of the PREP act regarding these vaccines.


Quote
I think the aftermath is far more scary than the actual pandemic. Inflation already kicking in with very little signs of actual recovery at this particular moment. Almost certain there’s another multi trillion relief on the way which would do little for the country and worsen inflation, etc. I’m legit concerned for the future. Optimism alone won’t bring the economy back.

Yep. This isn't over. It's just beginning.

How would they enforce that?  Do they ask for your papers as you enter?  "yeah I caved and got it last week guys"
You mean "I got my final dose two weeks ago," right?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 14, 2021, 03:53:28 PM
At this point, those who haven’t taken the vaccine are probably not planning in taking it any time soon, if at all. I believe everyone is, and should be entitled to choose. What worries me is the future restrictions that can be put in place particularly related to travel and entertainment. That in one way or another would force you to take the vaccine in order to go back to normal.

My FLGS, bless them, put up a status update today requiring the non-vaccinated to wear masks, while the vaccinated do not have to. That's their perogative, but I don't plan to patronize them. I hadn't planned on any kind of "getting back to normal" until the end of the year, so it's no huge letdown.
Will they require vaccination eventually? Dunno. I don't want to take any of these vaccines until they have full FDA approval and the government lifts the restrictions of the PREP act regarding these vaccines.


Quote
I think the aftermath is far more scary than the actual pandemic. Inflation already kicking in with very little signs of actual recovery at this particular moment. Almost certain there’s another multi trillion relief on the way which would do little for the country and worsen inflation, etc. I’m legit concerned for the future. Optimism alone won’t bring the economy back.

Yep. This isn't over. It's just beginning.

How would they enforce that?  Do they ask for your papers as you enter?  "yeah I caved and got it last week guys"

Gov. Inslee has laid the ground work for requiring proof of vaccination.

https://www.governor.wa.gov/news-media/inslee-announces-update-spectator-event-and-religious-organization-guidance
If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Zelen on May 14, 2021, 04:06:56 PM
It doesn't stop at vaccine cards. They are going to set up a universal tracking system tied to your identity with all your health info on it, and later on will have all your financial info on it. Start saying things the government doesn't like? Guess you don't need to buy groceries anymore.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 04:57:30 PM
It doesn't stop at vaccine cards. They are going to set up a universal tracking system tied to your identity with all your health info on it, and later on will have all your financial info on it. Start saying things the government doesn't like? Guess you don't need to buy groceries anymore.

I don't think the government is the primary problem. We already have a very effective universal tracking system from corporations. Between our smart phones and credit cards and social media, corporations already have an extremely effective tracking system for most people - and most people simply don't care. As soon as I buy something with my credit card, I start to see ads for that in various applications.

I think it's only because of HIPAA that this doesn't also happen with my health care.

I think there needs to be greater cross-partisan effort to enact more privacy restrictions - like some of the EU restrictions, or ideally going even further.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on May 14, 2021, 05:06:14 PM

As soon as I buy something with my credit card, I start to see ads for that in various applications.

I think it's only because of HIPAA that this doesn't also happen with my health care.

I think there needs to be greater cross-partisan effort to enact more privacy restrictions - like some of the EU restrictions, or ideally going even further.

I use private browser windows most of the time now. It helped a lot with most of the unwanted ads. Another thing that spooked me was the fact I was verbally complaining about back and knee pain from working on three games back to back. I began seeing ads about shoulder and back pain not even 48hrs after. We need better privacy protections indeed. After all I personally get to skip 99.9% of the ads. Even YouTube got ridiculous now too. 
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Zelen on May 14, 2021, 05:48:28 PM
It doesn't stop at vaccine cards. They are going to set up a universal tracking system tied to your identity with all your health info on it, and later on will have all your financial info on it. Start saying things the government doesn't like? Guess you don't need to buy groceries anymore.

I don't think the government is the primary problem. We already have a very effective universal tracking system from corporations. Between our smart phones and credit cards and social media, corporations already have an extremely effective tracking system for most people - and most people simply don't care. As soon as I buy something with my credit card, I start to see ads for that in various applications.

I think it's only because of HIPAA that this doesn't also happen with my health care.

I think there needs to be greater cross-partisan effort to enact more privacy restrictions - like some of the EU restrictions, or ideally going even further.


I agree partially, although I don't think there is a significant difference between government and corporations at this point. High level corporate/NGO executives have a revolving door with governmental positions & vice-versa.
The government funds, protects and provides legal cover for illegal & destructive corporate behavior. Simultaneously, government is laundering actions that it's illegal for them to do directly to corporations. This is an incestuous and mutually beneficial relationship for a self-appointed elite class of sociopaths.

The problem with any legal attempts at fixing the problem is that the people in charge only nominally care about the law. They were happy to cheat the election, they are happily destroying freedom of speech, will happily destroy the right to bear arms, are already illegally using surveillance on the entire US population, illegally detaining & torturing people from Jan 6th rally, etc. The government is happily coordinating the vaccine passport business for their own benefit because even if they aren't directly instituting it, you know that IBM/Google/Microsoft/etc. will be directly handing over that data to "law enforcement" whenever the government wants to go after a person they don't like.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 14, 2021, 07:00:23 PM

If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.
You know, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone say that forging papers to escape Nazi Germany was dishonest. It's funny how that word only gets applied when someone disapproves of something.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 14, 2021, 07:09:17 PM
It doesn't stop at vaccine cards. They are going to set up a universal tracking system tied to your identity with all your health info on it, and later on will have all your financial info on it. Start saying things the government doesn't like? Guess you don't need to buy groceries anymore.

I don't think the government is the primary problem. We already have a very effective universal tracking system from corporations. Between our smart phones and credit cards and social media, corporations already have an extremely effective tracking system for most people - and most people simply don't care. As soon as I buy something with my credit card, I start to see ads for that in various applications.

I think it's only because of HIPAA that this doesn't also happen with my health care.

I think there needs to be greater cross-partisan effort to enact more privacy restrictions - like some of the EU restrictions, or ideally going even further.
Are you familiar with how tracking works? It's far more intrusive than most people would ever imagine, but it's also centralized in certain companies (Google, Facebook, and Apple are probably the big three), and then there's a whole shadow market of lesser companies that try to mimic what the big companies know natively by collecting data from numerous smaller sources. It's very disturbing, but at least it's decentralized and partitioned a bit. And, at least until they started becoming organs of the government, they were checked by the government, and had to seriously worry about public perception because outrage could be used by politicians to drum up fear, which leads to new laws.

If government takes it over, there won't be any of those checks. We've seen how the NSA and the intelligence community blatantly lied to Congress in public hearings, the complete lack of transparency, and how little pressure there is to not overreach. Not to mention, the government isn't bound by the same laws, and has numerous other powers from broad wiretap subpoenas to law enforcement authority. Private corporations can be opaque, but the government has the power to investigate them. There is no such external agency with the same power over the government.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 14, 2021, 07:19:47 PM

If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.
You know, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone say that forging papers to escape Nazi Germany was dishonest. It's funny how that word only gets applied when someone disapproves of something.
So what other documents do you feel it's OK to forge? Is it OK to forge birth certificates or other proof of citizenship? How about faking travel credentials? Maybe bogus professional credentials are OK too?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Snowman0147 on May 14, 2021, 09:18:39 PM
We gotta cut government from corporations, end the lobbying, cut out useless regulations, and actually enforce good laws that keep these corporations in check.

1.) Without corporations bribing politicians the politicians have less incentive to serve the corporations.

2.) Cutting useless regulations means cutting down on expenses.  That means smaller and more able businesses are allowed to be made.  These businesses can kill the corporations simply by not being as cancerous (aka not suffering from HR departments, marketing departments, focus groups, and what else you can add).

3.) We have the laws and the ability to clean things up.  Section 230 for a example needs a simple edit and then we can enforce it.  We don't need new laws and regulations.  We just need to use the ones we already have.

Of course we need to replace all of congress, get a good president like Trump, and remove some spineless judges for pro constitutional judges with brass balls.  That is the hard bit.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 14, 2021, 09:59:51 PM

If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.
You know, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone say that forging papers to escape Nazi Germany was dishonest. It's funny how that word only gets applied when someone disapproves of something.
So what other documents do you feel it's OK to forge? Is it OK to forge birth certificates or other proof of citizenship? How about faking travel credentials? Maybe bogus professional credentials are OK too?
When you sign up to a website, do you always read the terms & conditions before checking the box that says you read the terms & conditions?

And I don't see anyone in the news who says it's dishonest for immigrants to stay illegally in a country they entered illegally, which is a significantly higher level of moral turpitude than protecting your private health information.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 14, 2021, 10:01:16 PM
We gotta cut government from corporations, end the lobbying, cut out useless regulations, and actually enforce good laws that keep these corporations in check.

1.) Without corporations bribing politicians the politicians have less incentive to serve the corporations.

2.) Cutting useless regulations means cutting down on expenses.  That means smaller and more able businesses are allowed to be made.  These businesses can kill the corporations simply by not being as cancerous (aka not suffering from HR departments, marketing departments, focus groups, and what else you can add).

3.) We have the laws and the ability to clean things up.  Section 230 for a example needs a simple edit and then we can enforce it.  We don't need new laws and regulations.  We just need to use the ones we already have.

Of course we need to replace all of congress, get a good president like Trump, and remove some spineless judges for pro constitutional judges with brass balls.  That is the hard bit.
Before you can do any of that, you'd need to massively reduce the government's discretionary power, because that's the source of everything else.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 14, 2021, 10:06:30 PM

If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.
You know, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone say that forging papers to escape Nazi Germany was dishonest. It's funny how that word only gets applied when someone disapproves of something.
So what other documents do you feel it's OK to forge? Is it OK to forge birth certificates or other proof of citizenship? How about faking travel credentials? Maybe bogus professional credentials are OK too?
When you sign up to a website, do you always read the terms & conditions before checking the box that says you read the terms & conditions?

And I don't see anyone in the news who says it's dishonest for immigrants to stay illegally in a country they entered illegally, which is a significantly higher level of moral turpitude than protecting your private health information.
There are some pieces of health information that are mandatory to report. Not all of it is guaranteed privacy, especially not when it involves certain communicable diseases and the vaccination against such.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 14, 2021, 10:13:29 PM

If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.
You know, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone say that forging papers to escape Nazi Germany was dishonest. It's funny how that word only gets applied when someone disapproves of something.
So what other documents do you feel it's OK to forge? Is it OK to forge birth certificates or other proof of citizenship? How about faking travel credentials? Maybe bogus professional credentials are OK too?
When you sign up to a website, do you always read the terms & conditions before checking the box that says you read the terms & conditions?

And I don't see anyone in the news who says it's dishonest for immigrants to stay illegally in a country they entered illegally, which is a significantly higher level of moral turpitude than protecting your private health information.
There are some pieces of health information that are mandatory to report. Not all of it is guaranteed privacy, especially not when it involves certain communicable diseases and the vaccination against such.
We're not talking about people who are infected.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 14, 2021, 11:29:50 PM

If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.
You know, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone say that forging papers to escape Nazi Germany was dishonest. It's funny how that word only gets applied when someone disapproves of something.
So what other documents do you feel it's OK to forge? Is it OK to forge birth certificates or other proof of citizenship? How about faking travel credentials? Maybe bogus professional credentials are OK too?
When you sign up to a website, do you always read the terms & conditions before checking the box that says you read the terms & conditions?

And I don't see anyone in the news who says it's dishonest for immigrants to stay illegally in a country they entered illegally, which is a significantly higher level of moral turpitude than protecting your private health information.
There are some pieces of health information that are mandatory to report. Not all of it is guaranteed privacy, especially not when it involves certain communicable diseases and the vaccination against such.
We're not talking about people who are infected.
Do all of the people we are talking about have the cards to prove that?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on May 14, 2021, 11:33:14 PM
Do all of the people we are talking about have the cards to prove that?

You’ll need it to claim your free beer or cheese burger.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 14, 2021, 11:52:01 PM

If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.
You know, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone say that forging papers to escape Nazi Germany was dishonest. It's funny how that word only gets applied when someone disapproves of something.
So what other documents do you feel it's OK to forge? Is it OK to forge birth certificates or other proof of citizenship? How about faking travel credentials? Maybe bogus professional credentials are OK too?
When you sign up to a website, do you always read the terms & conditions before checking the box that says you read the terms & conditions?

And I don't see anyone in the news who says it's dishonest for immigrants to stay illegally in a country they entered illegally, which is a significantly higher level of moral turpitude than protecting your private health information.
There are some pieces of health information that are mandatory to report. Not all of it is guaranteed privacy, especially not when it involves certain communicable diseases and the vaccination against such.
We're not talking about people who are infected.
Do all of the people we are talking about have the cards to prove that?
Thanks to the internet and home printers, yes.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 14, 2021, 11:53:41 PM
Do all of the people we are talking about have the cards to prove that?

You’ll need it to claim your free beer or cheese burger.
Or a million dollars! (https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ohio-governor-to-make-4th-primetime-coronavirus-16171749.php)
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Zelen on May 15, 2021, 12:02:03 AM
If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.

Seems like a bad idea since it's being treated as a federal crime (despite no proof of being infected, no proof of infecting anyone, and no actual laws requiring vaccination).
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: yancy on May 15, 2021, 12:06:12 AM
Yeah, I mean I faked up some screenshots of 'proof of vaccination' a couple days ago and got into the public library at 3 PM today no problem. They seem to be one of the few places locally that's sufficiently enamored of issuing fascist dictates to require one, and I wanted to take the card for a 'test run' before using it for anything important.

Didn't get busted this time, so I think I'm willing to risk doing it again in the future.

They didn't have cheeseburgers, but the blue haired SS official did give me an 'adult' snack pack. I should have gone with the kids one, this one has gross stuff like hummus and prune juice :/

Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 01:48:47 AM

If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.
You know, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone say that forging papers to escape Nazi Germany was dishonest. It's funny how that word only gets applied when someone disapproves of something.

There was one: a Portuguese consul  Aristides de Sousa Mendes (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53006790).
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 15, 2021, 12:52:55 PM
papers please clone but just for vax cards. I'd play it
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 15, 2021, 05:37:19 PM

If photos of cards on electronic devices are sufficient proof of vaccination, then it will be fairly easy for the dishonest to fake it instead of take it.
You know, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone say that forging papers to escape Nazi Germany was dishonest. It's funny how that word only gets applied when someone disapproves of something.

There was one: a Portuguese consul  Aristides de Sousa Mendes (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53006790).
He made the mistake of opposing Nazism before it was popular to do so. Never try to out anti-Nazi the cool kids, they can be vicious when someone trends early.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 07:29:00 PM
I don't think the government is the primary problem. We already have a very effective universal tracking system from corporations. Between our smart phones and credit cards and social media, corporations already have an extremely effective tracking system for most people - and most people simply don't care. As soon as I buy something with my credit card, I start to see ads for that in various applications.

I think it's only because of HIPAA that this doesn't also happen with my health care.

I think there needs to be greater cross-partisan effort to enact more privacy restrictions - like some of the EU restrictions, or ideally going even further.

I agree partially, although I don't think there is a significant difference between government and corporations at this point. High level corporate/NGO executives have a revolving door with governmental positions & vice-versa.
The government funds, protects and provides legal cover for illegal & destructive corporate behavior. Simultaneously, government is laundering actions that it's illegal for them to do directly to corporations. This is an incestuous and mutually beneficial relationship for a self-appointed elite class of sociopaths.

The problem with any legal attempts at fixing the problem is that the people in charge only nominally care about the law. They were happy to cheat the election, they are happily destroying freedom of speech, will happily destroy the right to bear arms, are already illegally using surveillance on the entire US population, illegally detaining & torturing people from Jan 6th rally, etc. The government is happily coordinating the vaccine passport business for their own benefit because even if they aren't directly instituting it, you know that IBM/Google/Microsoft/etc. will be directly handing over that data to "law enforcement" whenever the government wants to go after a person they don't like.

Suppressing freedom of speech, illegal detainment, and surveillance have *always* been stuff that the U.S. government has periodically engaged in for centuries. It's all a question of degree, and how unpopular it makes politicians to engage in it. The larger a program becomes, the more likely that someone will whistle-blow about it - and possibly how much political blowback it causes. Hoover's FBI engaged in all sorts of illegal and quasi-legal activity, only nominally caring about the law. Free speech has frequently been endangered, and has always required vigilance to support.

It usually works best against targets that are unpopular at the time.

Today, the landscape has changed because there is so much data available, and also in how hyper-partisan our politics has become. It seems really difficult to get anything bipartisan passed these days, and any violation in privacy is viewed mostly only through a lens of "how does it help my party". It's interesting to me how opinion has shifted so on Edward Snowden and Wikileaks.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 16, 2021, 08:08:18 PM
McDonald's to use packaging to promote COVID-19 vaccines

https://www.today.com/food/mcdonald-s-encouraging-customers-get-vaccinated-t218032

Setting aside the obvious jokes about a fast food joint reccomending a vaccine for a virus that has been linked to increased complications due to obesity...

What makes the McDonald's Corporation qualified to comment on vaccinations?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: oggsmash on May 16, 2021, 08:54:02 PM
McDonald's to use packaging to promote COVID-19 vaccines

https://www.today.com/food/mcdonald-s-encouraging-customers-get-vaccinated-t218032

Setting aside the obvious jokes about a fast food joint reccomending a vaccine for a virus that has been linked to increased complications due to obesity...

What makes the McDonald's Corporation qualified to comment on vaccinations?
  I think it i$ probably $omething they feel they have a  lot of and $ee it as their repon$ibility to comment on vaccination$.   I will give it $ome thought and $ee if I can figure out what they think qualifie$ them to $peak up.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on May 16, 2021, 10:29:00 PM
I'm tempted to buy one of those fries and then complain there was a syringe in it.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 16, 2021, 10:45:56 PM
McDonald's to use packaging to promote COVID-19 vaccines

https://www.today.com/food/mcdonald-s-encouraging-customers-get-vaccinated-t218032

Setting aside the obvious jokes about a fast food joint reccomending a vaccine for a virus that has been linked to increased complications due to obesity...

What makes the McDonald's Corporation qualified to comment on vaccinations?
I'd find it more fitting to hear that Chipotle was pushing Hepatitis A vaccines.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 17, 2021, 11:18:49 PM
Get the vaccine and get a free hamburger, you stupid fat sheep!

Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: This Guy on May 18, 2021, 03:35:36 AM
I'm tempted to buy one of those fries and then complain there was a syringe in it.

why would you comaon about a free syringe. It maybe has heroin or other good shit inside. Worst case it's empty and you can use it for a free embolism on someone you hate
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Brad on May 25, 2021, 08:59:50 PM
https://archive.org/details/vaccinationcurse00peeb/mode/2up

Oh look...do these dumbfuck communists just continually recycle crap whenever they figure people forgot about previous failed attempts? It's like the Spanish prisoner scam that's probably been around for literally thousands of years. "No no no, seriously, this is totally legit, I'm gonna get a million dollars!"
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 25, 2021, 09:46:52 PM
https://archive.org/details/vaccinationcurse00peeb/mode/2up

Oh look...do these dumbfuck communists just continually recycle crap whenever they figure people forgot about previous failed attempts? It's like the Spanish prisoner scam that's probably been around for literally thousands of years. "No no no, seriously, this is totally legit, I'm gonna get a million dollars!"
What are you trying to prove with a century-old source?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Spinachcat on June 03, 2021, 10:55:25 PM
I'm enjoying the memes about free donuts, burgers, fries, beer, etc so already obese people can be bribed to get jabbed with a questionable-at-best experimental drug for an illness that's allegedly dangerous to fatties. Much lolz.

As for faking vax cards, that's pretty basic moving forward. The smart move is take a picture of your vax card and show it off on your phone, and if necessary nuke the pic. Of course, it all becomes MUCH trickier if the digital vax passport becomes a thing.

Who knows? It's all so exciting. The control group vs. the vax group, both hoping the other group dies horribly for their choice.

I'm sticking with the control group.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: HappyDaze on June 04, 2021, 06:18:30 AM
Who knows? It's all so exciting. The control group vs. the vax group, both hoping the other group dies horribly for their choice.
What a complete line of bullshit. Reasonable people are not hoping that members of either group die horribly for their choice. This is more of the made up us vs. them shit that morons like you keep wanting to push.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on June 04, 2021, 07:57:43 AM
Who knows? It's all so exciting. The control group vs. the vax group, both hoping the other group dies horribly for their choice.
What a complete line of bullshit. Reasonable people are not hoping that members of either group die horribly for their choice. This is more of the made up us vs. them shit that morons like you keep wanting to push.

Breaking News: Society is broken!
The whole bs segregation of vaccinated, non-vaccinated will only widen the divide.
Mankind is in turbo retardation retro evolving mode, the invest in gold and silver commercials are out of control! Who let the looneys out!?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Pat on June 04, 2021, 11:02:36 AM
Who knows? It's all so exciting. The control group vs. the vax group, both hoping the other group dies horribly for their choice.
What a complete line of bullshit. Reasonable people are not hoping that members of either group die horribly for their choice. This is more of the made up us vs. them shit that morons like you keep wanting to push.

Breaking News: Society is broken!
The whole bs segregation of vaccinated, non-vaccinated will only widen the divide.
Mankind is in turbo retardation retro evolving mode, the invest in gold and silver commercials are out of control! Who let the looneys out!?
The solution is Critical Vaccination Theory. The primary motive force in history isn't class struggle, or the struggle between races for supremacy, it's about the struggle between the vaccinated and the non-vaccinated. We must fight for equity and social justice by dismantling the systems of oppression against the non-vaccinated. Those of us on the right side of history will force the vaccinated to check their privilege, teach children to be anti-vaccinationist, and bring diversity and inclusion to the supermarket and workplace!
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Kiero on July 05, 2021, 12:10:07 PM
As for faking vax cards, that's pretty basic moving forward. The smart move is take a picture of your vax card and show it off on your phone, and if necessary nuke the pic. Of course, it all becomes MUCH trickier if the digital vax passport becomes a thing.

I've already got the template to print and plenty of examples from virtue-signalling morons to spoof a genuine serial number, should it become necessary to fake one.
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Zalman on July 27, 2021, 10:36:30 AM
My boss called everyone into town for a in-person work meeting, but required that (only) unvaccinated employees wear masks. I got some weird looks for declining. A week later the meeting was cancelled because the 60-something-year-old boss suddenly came down with acute appendicitis and had to get surgery.

Guess what the most common serious side effect of COVID vaccination (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html) is?
Title: Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
Post by: Reckall on July 30, 2021, 12:38:03 PM
Guess what the most common serious side effect of COVID vaccination (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html) is?

Being derided by no-vaxxers?