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Author Topic: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!  (Read 6067 times)

jhkim

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2021, 06:22:15 PM »
Specifically for the case of covid-19, it's something where governments and scientists of vastly different countries all agree on most points - from Israel to Germany to Brazil to South Korea to the U.S. Imagining that all of those governments would cooperate together on a hoax seems quite a stretch.
You're conflating governments and scientists. They're not the same thing. Covid-19 is a good of example of how governments imposed mandates that were against the scientific consensus.

And there's no need to hypothesize any kind of secretive cabal. Governments all tend to act in ways that increase their power. They do this independently, on their own.

I'm not conflating -- I'm saying that they *mostly* agree. There are cases of differences between government and scientists and differences between different countries, but not on the scale that the OP is talking about. Spinachcat's claim from the OP is:

This is just one of at least three different fun articles I've seen. Here's to the exciting new world of mRNA!
https://medicalkidnap.com/2021/04/05/italy-two-more-teachers-dead-after-astrazeneca-covid-shot/

Just imagine. Healthy people are dying from an experimental vax that allegedly "protects" you from a virus with the lethal power of a nasty cold. Mathematically, only a handful of the thousands of people who magically died after getting the vax would have actually died from the CoronaChan.


Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

Pat

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2021, 06:29:07 PM »
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.
I don't dispute that, but those are both very mild statements. It's been the specific responses where, to be as generous as possible, the government actions have been extraordinarily speculative based on zero or negative indications in the science. Or to be more honest, they've lied through their teeth and used a crisis to grab attention and power, even when that caused immense harm.

Though even the government line on the vaccines tends to be very misleading.

Garry G

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2021, 06:52:39 PM »
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.
I don't dispute that, but those are both very mild statements. It's been the specific responses where, to be as generous as possible, the government actions have been extraordinarily speculative based on zero or negative indications in the science. Or to be more honest, they've lied through their teeth and used a crisis to grab attention and power, even when that caused immense harm.

Though even the government line on the vaccines tends to be very misleading.

This hasn't been my experience with the UK government. They started by downplaying the issue and only went into lockdown at a late point, after asking politely for people to not go to the pub so much. They lifted the lockdown as soon as possible and encouraged people to eat out to help out which may have exacerbated a second wave. There was then an opening up for Christmas which had a possible negative effect.

The AZ vaccine issue is interesting in itself. Up until this week it was the Oxford AZ vaccine and a sign of British exceptionalism. When weeks ago EU countries stopped using it due to concerns about blood clots it was framed as a Brexit issue and a problem with the EU.

Now this is a government with a massive parliamentary majority that can push through pretty much anything it likes, indeed their recent bill regarding protests is draconian, but the reaction to covid has been confused and bumbling. The parliamentary party itself has been divided.

It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
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Pat

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2021, 07:03:41 PM »
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

jhkim

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2021, 07:13:00 PM »
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

I don't dispute that, but those are both very mild statements. It's been the specific responses where, to be as generous as possible, the government actions have been extraordinarily speculative based on zero or negative indications in the science. Or to be more honest, they've lied through their teeth and used a crisis to grab attention and power, even when that caused immense harm.

Though even the government line on the vaccines tends to be very misleading.

I was trying to stay on topic to the OP from Spinachcat. If you want to bring up particular government actions, could you clarify which you're talking about for the topic?

Garry G

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2021, 07:15:13 PM »
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

So politicians tend to overreact except for when they underreact in the explicit circumstance we're talking about?
I'm still having a go at Keeping Cthulhu

Pat

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2021, 07:20:28 PM »
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

So politicians tend to overreact except for when they underreact in the explicit circumstance we're talking about?
People are complex. But you know that, because unless we're being invaded by ETs or AI has suddenly gotten a lot better than anyone imagined, you're human, and thus you know that when we talk about the behavior of groups we're talking about tendencies that manifest in different ways, not simplistic absolutes that always apply in every case. So it's pretty clear you're not even trying to address the issues I've raised.


Garry G

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2021, 07:32:34 PM »
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

So politicians tend to overreact except for when they underreact in the explicit circumstance we're talking about?
People are complex. But you know that, because unless we're being invaded by ETs or AI has suddenly gotten a lot better than anyone imagined, you're human, and thus you know that when we talk about the behavior of groups we're talking about tendencies that manifest in different ways, not simplistic absolutes that always apply in every case. So it's pretty clear you're not even trying to address the issues I've raised.

The subject raised was whether there was a planned worldwide conspiracy by numerous disparate countries. You stated that this isn't needed as governments tend to try to increase their power and be seen to do something, also that politicians do this because they don't want to be seen to underreact so strong measures would be put through.

I gave a real world example of a government that has done the exact opposite in the circumstances we're talking about, in regards to the vaccine we're talking about no less, and it's me not addressing the issues. Broad statements are great with hypothetical but this isn't a hypothetical situation.
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Pat

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2021, 07:34:20 PM »
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

I don't dispute that, but those are both very mild statements. It's been the specific responses where, to be as generous as possible, the government actions have been extraordinarily speculative based on zero or negative indications in the science. Or to be more honest, they've lied through their teeth and used a crisis to grab attention and power, even when that caused immense harm.

Though even the government line on the vaccines tends to be very misleading.

I was trying to stay on topic to the OP from Spinachcat. If you want to bring up particular government actions, could you clarify which you're talking about for the topic?
If I wanted to bring up specific government actions, I would have done so, wouldn't I? You made a false general statement, I replied at that level. We've already rehashed the specifics ad nauseum in the main covid thread.

Pat

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2021, 07:41:38 PM »
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

So politicians tend to overreact except for when they underreact in the explicit circumstance we're talking about?
People are complex. But you know that, because unless we're being invaded by ETs or AI has suddenly gotten a lot better than anyone imagined, you're human, and thus you know that when we talk about the behavior of groups we're talking about tendencies that manifest in different ways, not simplistic absolutes that always apply in every case. So it's pretty clear you're not even trying to address the issues I've raised.

The subject raised was whether there was a planned worldwide conspiracy by numerous disparate countries. You stated that this isn't needed as governments tend to try to increase their power and be seen to do something, also that politicians do this because they don't want to be seen to underreact so strong measures would be put through.

I gave a real world example of a government that has done the exact opposite in the circumstances we're talking about, in regards to the vaccine we're talking about no less, and it's me not addressing the issues. Broad statements are great with hypothetical but this isn't a hypothetical situation.
You're treating behavioral tendencies as a mathematical proof. That if there is one single counter example, you have to throw it all out. Worse than that, you're not even basing it on a real counter example, just an apparent counterexample based on an overly simplistic reading.

That's utter nonsense. It's such nonsense, that either you've gotten lost in some kind of adversarial mindset and no longer realize what you're saying, or you're arguing under false pretenses, in the hopes that people following along are reading so superficially they might think you have a point.

Garry G

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2021, 08:09:15 PM »
It's a bit reductive to say that any given government will simply use a crisis to consolidate power. If anything it looks like many governments have flailed about just like the UK one has and possibly not exerted their power soon enough.
It's a bit reductive to reinterpret my post that way. I said "tends". The world operates by self-interest. That doesn't mean most people are selfish assholes most of the time, just that people tend to operate in their own self interest consistently enough that it provides significant predictive power. Given all the possible ways someone can act, it's one of the strongest trends. A popular aphorism is follow the money, which can be generalized into follow the incentives. Bureaucracies and politicians have an inherent bias toward their own preservation and expansion.

Incidentally, downplaying an issue until it's too big to ignore than overplaying their hand fits that thesis to a T. Underplaying an issue that could be blamed on you, flailing about in response to anything novel, and then ultimately following the paths that give you more attention and power, are all logical outcomes.

So politicians tend to overreact except for when they underreact in the explicit circumstance we're talking about?
People are complex. But you know that, because unless we're being invaded by ETs or AI has suddenly gotten a lot better than anyone imagined, you're human, and thus you know that when we talk about the behavior of groups we're talking about tendencies that manifest in different ways, not simplistic absolutes that always apply in every case. So it's pretty clear you're not even trying to address the issues I've raised.

The subject raised was whether there was a planned worldwide conspiracy by numerous disparate countries. You stated that this isn't needed as governments tend to try to increase their power and be seen to do something, also that politicians do this because they don't want to be seen to underreact so strong measures would be put through.

I gave a real world example of a government that has done the exact opposite in the circumstances we're talking about, in regards to the vaccine we're talking about no less, and it's me not addressing the issues. Broad statements are great with hypothetical but this isn't a hypothetical situation.
You're treating behavioral tendencies as a mathematical proof. That if there is one single counter example, you have to throw it all out. Worse than that, you're not even basing it on a real counter example, just an apparent counterexample based on an overly simplistic reading.

That's utter nonsense. It's such nonsense, that either you've gotten lost in some kind of adversarial mindset and no longer realize what you're saying, or you're arguing under false pretenses, in the hopes that people following along are reading so superficially they might think you have a point.

Is say the same of you. Looking at many governments reactions to covid I just don't see your thesis at work. You're presenting stuff as self-evident in the hope that people will accept it and just go along. Anecdotal evidence on what any government does is all there really is in this situation. I'm sorry that I can't accept your rather airy fairy assertions as something handed down from on high.
I'm still having a go at Keeping Cthulhu

Pat

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2021, 08:13:40 PM »
Is say the same of you. Looking at many governments reactions to covid I just don't see your thesis at work. You're presenting stuff as self-evident in the hope that people will accept it and just go along. Anecdotal evidence on what any government does is all there really is in this situation. I'm sorry that I can't accept your rather airy fairy assertions as something handed down from on high.
Then how do you address general tendencies or human behavior? Say it doesn't happen unless you have objective proof and no contradicting evidence? That's not a functional stand. We can talk about motivations and tendencies, disagree with them, and critique them; those are all valid. But you're simply dismissing them using standards that throw away the possibility of even discussing them.

Shasarak

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2021, 11:03:03 PM »
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.
There will be poor always,
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look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

This Guy

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2021, 01:44:56 AM »
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.

The spouse I invented in my head has an immunodeficiency, so the vax at home is mandatory.
I don't want to play with you.

Shasarak

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Re: Please post your selfies with proof of vaccination!
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2021, 05:08:25 AM »
Overwhelmingly, both scientists and governments agree that covid-19 has more lethal power than a nasty cold, and that vaccination against it is a good idea.

More lethal power than a nasty cold for who?

If you are 80 years old.

The spouse I invented in my head has an immunodeficiency, so the vax at home is mandatory.

I just imagined that you got the vaccine so your spouse is going to be OK!
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus