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Author Topic: ...Now Apparently Dungeons and Dragons is loaded with Anti-semitic Secret Codes  (Read 4709 times)

Shasarak

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It also make the morality of zombies more confusing than it should be. In folklore, zombies are enslaved innocents*. Using them is slavery and slavery is evil. In D&D the zombie isn’t any more intelligent than a domestic animal (in 5e) or a robot (in 3.x) and are evil in alignment. Why are the zombies evil and why is animating them evil? It feels... arbitrary.

Why is enslaving a person evil but enslaving a persons body not evil?

Why is one more arbitrary then the other?
There will be poor always,
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look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

BoxCrayonTales

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It also make the morality of zombies more confusing than it should be. In folklore, zombies are enslaved innocents*. Using them is slavery and slavery is evil. In D&D the zombie isn’t any more intelligent than a domestic animal (in 5e) or a robot (in 3.x) and are evil in alignment. Why are the zombies evil and why is animating them evil? It feels... arbitrary.

Why is enslaving a person evil but enslaving a persons body not evil?

Why is one more arbitrary then the other?
I'm talking about D&D, not real life. Zombies don't seem to exist in reality, but turning people into zombies is still considered evil because it is slavery.

D&D has entirely arbitrary answers to all those questions. Animating a corpse as an animated object isn't considered evil. Animating it as an undead is considered evil. Enslaving an elemental to animate a golem isn't considered evil. Enslaving a person isn't considered evil, whether thru magic mind control or mundane coercion, and there are several good-aligned nations in various settings that rely on slavery.

Do you want to continue this tangent or try to get back on topic?

Shasarak

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It also make the morality of zombies more confusing than it should be. In folklore, zombies are enslaved innocents*. Using them is slavery and slavery is evil. In D&D the zombie isn’t any more intelligent than a domestic animal (in 5e) or a robot (in 3.x) and are evil in alignment. Why are the zombies evil and why is animating them evil? It feels... arbitrary.

Why is enslaving a person evil but enslaving a persons body not evil?

Why is one more arbitrary then the other?
I'm talking about D&D, not real life. Zombies don't seem to exist in reality, but turning people into zombies is still considered evil because it is slavery.

D&D has entirely arbitrary answers to all those questions. Animating a corpse as an animated object isn't considered evil. Animating it as an undead is considered evil. Enslaving an elemental to animate a golem isn't considered evil. Enslaving a person isn't considered evil, whether thru magic mind control or mundane coercion, and there are several good-aligned nations in various settings that rely on slavery.

Do you want to continue this tangent or try to get back on topic?

First you say that Slavery is Evil and then you say that several good aligned nations rely on slavery.

And turning a dead person into a Zombie is supposed to be some kind of Alignment edge case?  I honestly dont even know what you are trying to argue for now.
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BoxCrayonTales

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It also make the morality of zombies more confusing than it should be. In folklore, zombies are enslaved innocents*. Using them is slavery and slavery is evil. In D&D the zombie isn’t any more intelligent than a domestic animal (in 5e) or a robot (in 3.x) and are evil in alignment. Why are the zombies evil and why is animating them evil? It feels... arbitrary.

Why is enslaving a person evil but enslaving a persons body not evil?

Why is one more arbitrary then the other?
I'm talking about D&D, not real life. Zombies don't seem to exist in reality, but turning people into zombies is still considered evil because it is slavery.

D&D has entirely arbitrary answers to all those questions. Animating a corpse as an animated object isn't considered evil. Animating it as an undead is considered evil. Enslaving an elemental to animate a golem isn't considered evil. Enslaving a person isn't considered evil, whether thru magic mind control or mundane coercion, and there are several good-aligned nations in various settings that rely on slavery.

Do you want to continue this tangent or try to get back on topic?

First you say that Slavery is Evil and then you say that several good aligned nations rely on slavery.

And turning a dead person into a Zombie is supposed to be some kind of Alignment edge case?  I honestly dont even know what you are trying to argue for now.
I'm describing the differences in morality between real life and D&D land as it relates to the cases of slavery and zombies.

In real life, slavery is bad. I don't believe zombies exist, but people who do believe they exist believe that their creation is evil because it is slavery beyond death.

In D&D land, slavery is okay. In D&D land, creating zombies is bad even though they're mindless and therefore aren't slaves anymore than domesticated animals or industrial factory robots are slaves.

In real life, the moral argument of this case is reasonable. Slavery is bad because it is a human rights violation.

In D&D land, the alignment of any given actions is arbitrary, inconsistent, and irrational. Slavery is okay because writer fiat, zombies are bad because writer fiat.

Shasarak

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I'm describing the differences in morality between real life and D&D land as it relates to the cases of slavery and zombies.

In real life, slavery is bad. I don't believe zombies exist, but people who do believe they exist believe that their creation is evil because it is slavery beyond death.

In D&D land, slavery is okay. In D&D land, creating zombies is bad even though they're mindless and therefore aren't slaves anymore than domesticated animals or industrial factory robots are slaves.

In real life, the moral argument of this case is reasonable. Slavery is bad because it is a human rights violation.

In D&D land, the alignment of any given actions is arbitrary, inconsistent, and irrational. Slavery is okay because writer fiat, zombies are bad because writer fiat.

If Slavery was that bad in real life then we would do something about it but we dont because eh, got to do something with the bad people I dont know just chuck them in a concrete prison cells with the other slaves.

Zombies however are deliberately creating a remorseless killing machine that has no other purpose but destruction.  Even Orcs can at least create more Orcs. 

Where is the writers fiat? Well it turns out the the writers fiat is all of the mental gymnastics that go into the effort to justify the creation of undead because they could pull a plow or something useful.  Uh huh yeah that makes it good thing.  ::)
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Eirikrautha

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It also make the morality of zombies more confusing than it should be. In folklore, zombies are enslaved innocents*. Using them is slavery and slavery is evil. In D&D the zombie isn’t any more intelligent than a domestic animal (in 5e) or a robot (in 3.x) and are evil in alignment. Why are the zombies evil and why is animating them evil? It feels... arbitrary.

* I recall hearing that sometimes people may actually pay a bokor to turn someone else (usually a person reviled in the family or community) into a zombie, but I don’t know the details.

Per 1st edition rules, animating the dead pulls negative energy into the prime material plane, and negative energy is inimical to all life.  And, if I'm remembering the rules correctly, an undead that is not controlled by its creator (who makes periodic checks to do so) immediately attacks and kills any living creature it encounters, due to the driving force of the negative energy used to create it.  So yeah, making them is evil...

Pat

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It also make the morality of zombies more confusing than it should be. In folklore, zombies are enslaved innocents*. Using them is slavery and slavery is evil. In D&D the zombie isn’t any more intelligent than a domestic animal (in 5e) or a robot (in 3.x) and are evil in alignment. Why are the zombies evil and why is animating them evil? It feels... arbitrary.

* I recall hearing that sometimes people may actually pay a bokor to turn someone else (usually a person reviled in the family or community) into a zombie, but I don’t know the details.

Per 1st edition rules, animating the dead pulls negative energy into the prime material plane, and negative energy is inimical to all life.  And, if I'm remembering the rules correctly, an undead that is not controlled by its creator (who makes periodic checks to do so) immediately attacks and kills any living creature it encounters, due to the driving force of the negative energy used to create it.  So yeah, making them is evil...
Very much so, and the official line on that topic never really moved, at least through 3rd edition. Though there's always been debate about whether necromancy has to be evil or not. Probably the most notable exploration of that concept was White Wolf's d20 supplement, Hollowfaust, that detailed a city ruled by necromancers who used zombies and the like for labor. Their citizens were treated well while they were alive, but their bodies belonged to the city when they died. It got a lot of praise, though I thought it was kind of mediocre.

oggsmash

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 Its even easier to be anti semitic than it is to be racist now a days.  So color me shocked.

BoxCrayonTales

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It also make the morality of zombies more confusing than it should be. In folklore, zombies are enslaved innocents*. Using them is slavery and slavery is evil. In D&D the zombie isn’t any more intelligent than a domestic animal (in 5e) or a robot (in 3.x) and are evil in alignment. Why are the zombies evil and why is animating them evil? It feels... arbitrary.

* I recall hearing that sometimes people may actually pay a bokor to turn someone else (usually a person reviled in the family or community) into a zombie, but I don’t know the details.

Per 1st edition rules, animating the dead pulls negative energy into the prime material plane, and negative energy is inimical to all life.  And, if I'm remembering the rules correctly, an undead that is not controlled by its creator (who makes periodic checks to do so) immediately attacks and kills any living creature it encounters, due to the driving force of the negative energy used to create it.  So yeah, making them is evil...
Very much so, and the official line on that topic never really moved, at least through 3rd edition. Though there's always been debate about whether necromancy has to be evil or not. Probably the most notable exploration of that concept was White Wolf's d20 supplement, Hollowfaust, that detailed a city ruled by necromancers who used zombies and the like for labor. Their citizens were treated well while they were alive, but their bodies belonged to the city when they died. It got a lot of praise, though I thought it was kind of mediocre.
It's a similar the case in Planescape: Torment. The Dustmen use zombie and skeleton labor, but nobody considers this evil or anything.

I once wrote a very long post about that on my blog. I think that's probably the longest post I ever wrote. Long story short: ask your GM to pick a coherent metaphysic and stick with it.

Shasarak

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It's a similar the case in Planescape: Torment. The Dustmen use zombie and skeleton labor, but nobody considers this evil or anything.

In Planescape Torment you have honest to Gawd actual Demons and Devils walking around.

The reason they are allowed to is because of the Lady of Pain not because everyone suddenly came to the epiphany that undead were a "good" thing
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BoxCrayonTales

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It's a similar the case in Planescape: Torment. The Dustmen use zombie and skeleton labor, but nobody considers this evil or anything.

In Planescape Torment you have honest to Gawd actual Demons and Devils walking around.

The reason they are allowed to is because of the Lady of Pain not because everyone suddenly came to the epiphany that undead were a "good" thing
The zombies clearly aren't evil in the game. They don't have any instincts to hunt the living. You get to visit a secret underground kingdom of them and they're quite nice.

Shasarak

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It's a similar the case in Planescape: Torment. The Dustmen use zombie and skeleton labor, but nobody considers this evil or anything.

In Planescape Torment you have honest to Gawd actual Demons and Devils walking around.

The reason they are allowed to is because of the Lady of Pain not because everyone suddenly came to the epiphany that undead were a "good" thing
The zombies clearly aren't evil in the game. They don't have any instincts to hunt the living. You get to visit a secret underground kingdom of them and they're quite nice.

Did you get a Detect Evil on these "quite nice" Zombies?

Reminds me of the stories about meeting the "quite nice" Michael Myers.
There will be poor always,
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look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Kyle Aaron

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Fictional worlds tend to fall apart if you poke at them too much. I just finished watching Tribes of Europa, which is great fun but makes no sense at all. But it's great fun so who cares?
Rules for effective DMing:
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3. I master the game, the game does not master me.
4. Momentum over perfection.
5. The game must go on!
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KingCheops

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The Dustmen are also not what you'd call a Good faction.  They are a very Lawful faction and those who are reanimated as zombies are the ones who sold their bodies for use after death.  You take the coin you can't complain!

Could be a fun story line with a paladin or some other cleric running around Destroying Undead on all the Dustmen zombies.