"not as bad as it looks" is still bad

[RPGPundit]

I think its pretty absurd to suggest that a period where selling a hundred thousand copies of a book was somewhat of a disappointment could be termed "cottage industry".

RPGPundit

[TristramEvans]

I should have clarified that 4E kinda sucks as an RPG, which is what we talked about on the show.
I've been interested in Gamma World...how does it work with the booster packs?

I only played it once, but it was fun, as a kinda of boardgame-RPG hybrid, as in, it was all just sort of a contrived video-game like movements from one combat to the next (we were playing the adventure that came with the main box I believe), but the rotating powers (certain situations would cause a player to "mutate" suddenly and develope new powers; these situations came up often, sometimes twice per combat encounter) and player abilities kept it interesting. Weapons and equipment were also often one-use only, and we constantly got more new stuff.

Character creation in particular was a hoot. I wouldn't half mind porting the chargen rules wholesale to another system (maybe an earlier iteration of GW), and I like the gonzo-apocalypse vibe.

I honestly don't know if our GM was using booster packs or it was just the main boxed set.

[Justin Alexander]

I think its pretty absurd to suggest that a period where selling a hundred thousand copies of a book was somewhat of a disappointment could be termed "cottage industry".

There's a fatalistic portion of this hobby that really, really, really wants to believe that the "fads" were completely random events and there's nothing that anybody can do about it. Grognardia is kind of a poster boy for this sort of thing.

You can see similar stuff from wargamers in the '80s and with comic book fans.

[TristramEvans]

There's a fatalistic portion of this hobby that really, really, really wants to believe that the "fads" were completely random events and there's nothing that anybody can do about it. Grognardia is kind of a poster boy for this sort of thing.

You can see similar stuff from wargamers in the '80s and with comic book fans.

What "fads"? I'm confused, but being a comic book fan I'm curious if I agree with you or not.

[Spinachcat]

The hobby will survive. The industry won't.

Without the industry, the hobby fades and dies.

I want as many fucking people playing games as is humanly possible.  I don't want my ability to play them depending on a dwindling and aging population of old tossers descending into reactionary attitudes.

Bingo!

I've been interested in Gamma World...how does it work with the booster packs?

The booster packs are akin to supplements or splats. You don't need them, but they can expand options in your campaign. Players can use them to customize stuff for their character's mutation deck and/or GMs can use them to tailor the technology deck to fit their adventure.

I will probably grab the boosters off eBay eventually, just to complete the set. I like the idea of more cards so I can tailor treasure troves.

[RandallS]

Without the industry, the hobby fades and dies.

I disagree. With the Internet to keep people in touch and to allow easy publication of free and "cottage industry" games, the death of the big game companies (which seem to be what most people think of as "the industry") is unlikely to cause the hobby to fade much more than it has -- let alone to die.

If the industry were truly needed (for example, if one could not play games without buying new modules because it was impossible to run games without adventure modules) or if the industry was doing so much mainstream advertising that their ads were the main source of new players, then it would be a different story. However, a continuing stream of material isn't necessary for actual play and the industry does little advertising to non-gamers.

There are also loads of free and cottage industry produced adventures, settings, and rule sets available with more published every month -- probably as much or more than "the industry" produces most months. Much of it is as good as the material published by "the industry" except in production quality (artwork, fancy layout, etc.) and while this type of production quality is nice it matters more to collectors than to actual players.

[David Johansen]

Without the industry the hobby can finally escape the business model that turns games into unapproachable stacks of sourcebooks and can't figure out how to appeal to new customers to save its life.  The gaming "industry" gave up on rpgs by 1990 and has been trying to strangle the hobby ever since.

[TristramEvans]

The gaming "industry" gave up on rpgs by 1990 and has been trying to strangle the hobby ever since.

LOLwhat?

[beeber]

Without the industry, the hobby fades and dies.

yeah, that's a load of horseshit.  without players and folks recruiting other players, then the hobby fades and dies :rolleyes:

[David Johansen]

LOLwhat?

Well, we've got TSR at the time not allowing playtesting and management firmly hating gamers and gaming.  We've got ICE where nobody'd played an rpg in a good six years at that point.  We've got HERO letting ICE publish them because the founders got done school got real jobs and lives.  GURPS is just getting started at SJG though the reviews in Pyramid a couple years later were very down on new rpgs as old hat.  White wolf hadn't even showed up to tell us what a bunch of losers we were.  FGU was only a couple years from bankrupcy.  Avalon Hill's Runequest had already crested and would produce little or nothing more.

It'd take me some hours to build up a complete list of citations but it's very clear to me that the big companies of the day were disillusioned with and tired of rpgs.

The business model that evolved out of that period of decline is the stacks of supplements on a regular basis and as the nineties and naughties progress the new edition on a regular basis model ramps up faster and faster.  My belief is that both of these models serve to STRANGLE the hobby and become an obstacle to new users who run into the semiannual edition war right out of the gate.

How do you make money in the industry?  You've got me there.  If I knew I'd have turned pro a long time ago.  Still I think a long steady view is the answer.  New editions should be improvements of the art, printing, layout, indexing, and format but remain compatible in rules terms.  The game should be supported with a good solid setting, adventures, miniatures, and fiction.  

I think a solid introductory product is the key to survival.  And by solid I mean, you can play this for years without anything else but it makes you want more.  So, it needs to contain multiple adventures, a setting, and pretty open ended play.  But I've said all that before.

Why?  Because when people walk into a store or hit your website you want there to be a single item that is your game.  You want to answer the question "How do I get into this?" with "Buy this one reasonably priced thing." not "Well you can buy the previous edition that was well supported or the new edition that isn't at all compatible with it but you'll need these seven books and four boxes of these game aids and the secret blacklight decoder that separates the actual rules from the author's defensive whining (Dangerous Journeys in particular needed one of these) but there's a new edition in (checks watch) forty five minutes that will make all of this stuff incompatible but won't actually be complete enough to play for another three years."

[jeff37923]

Without the industry, the hobby fades and dies.

Oh, bullshit. Production of RPGs is even now moving more towards a cottage industry approach that is more supportive of the hobby. The only Players who are threatened by the industry fading away are RPGA style losers who don't believe they can survive away from suckling on the industry's teat.

[TristramEvans]

Well, we've got TSR at the time not allowing playtesting and management firmly hating gamers and gaming.  We've got ICE where nobody'd played an rpg in a good six years at that point.  We've got HERO letting ICE publish them because the founders got done school got real jobs and lives.  GURPS is just getting started at SJG though the reviews in Pyramid a couple years later were very down on new rpgs as old hat.  White wolf hadn't even showed up to tell us what a bunch of losers we were.  FGU was only a couple years from bankrupcy.  Avalon Hill's Runequest had already crested and would produce little or nothing more.

Ah, I see. You literally meant 1990, I read it as since 1990, hence my bafflement.

The business model that evolved out of that period of decline is the stacks of supplements on a regular basis and as the nineties and naughties progress the new edition on a regular basis model ramps up faster and faster.  My belief is that both of these models serve to STRANGLE the hobby and become an obstacle to new users who run into the semiannual edition war right out of the gate.

My biggest problems were with games that had useless "starter sets" ("pay for preview" as one blogger put it), and ones that required multiple book purchases just to get the necessary rules. As long as I can pick up one or at most two books or a single boxed set and never need anything else again to play the game, then I have no problem with the "supplement mill" as you put it, style of RPG marketing. As long as they are optional.

Warhammer FRPG 1e would be one of the few examples of what I would consider to be a 'perfect' (as far as content and presentation) main game book. I may be a little biased as it was my first RPG, but I've owned and played that game since the 80s, and have never once bought a supplement (except the 2nd edition "monster manual"-type book, which was rather brilliant even if it forgot Fimirs and Zoats, two of my favorites from the setting).

However, that was mainly because the supplements were simply hard to find in the places I lived (and my limited ability to travel at that age). I don't think Warhammer 1e had alot of supplements, but if they did, it would mean I could buy them based on their individual merit, not because I needed them to game because they contained vital system info or metaplot events that drastically alter the setting.

[David Johansen]

But the trying to strangle part has been going on SINCE nineteen ninety.  Eviscerate might be more apt as they're trying to pull as much out of each customer as they can get.  And it goes on because the industry is stuck on the idea that it is a dying and dwindling fad and the customer from nineteen ninety is the only customer and there can be no new customers.

When I talk with people in the industry I always get an overwhelming sense that they don't believe that things can improve, that new customers can be found, or that proper marketing or introductory sets can be achieved.  I can't cite that or quantify it and my industry experience is somewhat limited to a few exchanges with Steve Jackson and a massive amount of back and forth with Tim Duger, formerly of ICE presently of FireHawk games, and Bruce Neidlinger formerly of ICE, and one somewhat embarassing flameout with Ryan Dancy in the early days of D&D3e.

[StormBringer]

But the trying to strangle part has been going on SINCE nineteen ninety.  Eviscerate might be more apt as they're trying to pull as much out of each customer as they can get.  And it goes on because the industry is stuck on the idea that it is a dying and dwindling fad and the customer from nineteen ninety is the only customer and there can be no new customers.

When I talk with people in the industry I always get an overwhelming sense that they don't believe that things can improve, that new customers can be found, or that proper marketing or introductory sets can be achieved.  I can't cite that or quantify it and my industry experience is somewhat limited to a few exchanges with Steve Jackson and a massive amount of back and forth with Tim Duger, formerly of ICE presently of FireHawk games, and Bruce Neidlinger formerly of ICE, and one somewhat embarassing flameout with Ryan Dancy in the early days of D&D3e.

I think this kind of speaks to what I mentioned in the other thread; game designers don't take things seriously.

[danbuter]

How do you make money in the industry?  You've got me there.  If I knew I'd have turned pro a long time ago.  Still I think a long steady view is the answer.  New editions should be improvements of the art, printing, layout, indexing, and format but remain compatible in rules terms.  The game should be supported with a good solid setting, adventures, miniatures, and fiction.  

Unfortunately, I don't even know if that works. Look at Call of Cthulhu. The rules in 7e are very, very similar to the rules in 1e. And while the game is still around, it's not a huge success. Even with Lovecraft being far more well known than he ever was in the 80's when the game was first released.