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Author Topic: Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc  (Read 11124 times)

1989

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I was reading the following article:

http://www.themarysue.com/sexuality-and-gender-diversity-dungeons-and-dragons-next/

wherein, Mike Mearls states:

MM: Any social change takes time. My personal sense is that I’ve always been much more leery about offending gay and transgender folks by fumbling the issue in an effort to include them. I’m not worried about offending bigots – quite the opposite, in fact. The value lies simply in acknowledgement, and realizing that it’s better to put something out there than remain quiet out of a misplaced bout of sensitivity. (emphasis mine)

What exactly is he saying, here? That people who do not accept/endorse homosexuality (homosexuals are 2-3% of the population in North America) are bigots? Really?

Further in the interview:

MM: What’s interesting is that the majority – almost the entirety – of the team working on the visuals consists of women, with Kate Irwin as the art director. (emphasis mine)

So, we have an art team composed almost entirely of women.

As I was looking through the PHB at my local bookstore, I noticed that almost all the race illustrations were women. Likewise, it was my impression that the same was true of the character class illustrations -- seemed to be mostly women represented. Is this a coincidence, or a result of having a female art team?

Further:

As I was reading the class descriptions, I noted that the female pronoun, she, was used in the descriptive text for almost all character classes. There would be one paragraph with "she" and then maybe a second paragraph with "he". So, I guess, they were trying to change it up and keep it fair. Still, though, it was interesting how "she" came first in most cases.

This all rubbed me the wrong way.

What is going on here?

Pandering to SJWs and feminists?

Don't get me wrong, the rules aren't bad. It's better than 3e and 4e in terms of art style and rules.

Just this agenda, this pandering, as it feels to me, is a turnoff.

I was gonna buy the new corebooks. Instead, I went and bought the latest edition of Warhammer 40,000.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 11:21:02 AM by 1989 »

ArrozConLeche

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2014, 11:06:01 AM »
You don't need to endorse homosexuality, but to be offended by homosexuality is akin to being offended by interracial relationships, IMO. So I'm quite in agreement with Mike Mearls that if someone is offended by the homosexuality, then ces't la vie.

I also don't have a problem with the pronoun "she" being used exclusively, and I don't have a problem with "he" being used exclusively. Who cares.

I do think that having a team of illustrators almost entirely consisting of women is sketchy if you don't consider diversity to include men. I'm not saying it has to be 50/50, but if the composition of the group is consciously engineered, I do have an issue with that if your goal is inclusion.

Kiero

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2014, 11:15:09 AM »
Quote from: 1989;793545
That people who do not accept/endorse homosexuality (homosexuals are 2-3% of the population in North America) are bigots? Really?


Simply put, yes, and I'd agree with him. Someone's sexual orientation is such a trivial reason to discriminate against someone, you should accept people for who they are.
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Bren

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2014, 11:22:33 AM »
Quote from: 1989;793545
What is going on here?
What is going on is it's 2014 not 1954. Society's attitudes about homosexuality (and a number of other things) have changed.

Quote
This all rubbed me the wrong way.
You should consider that not everything needs to be about you and you should try to be less easily offended.

And in other roleplaying news: D&D Trolls regenerate.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 11:38:08 AM by Bren »
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One Horse Town

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2014, 11:24:38 AM »
I'm getting tired of these trolls.

Yes, Mearls hates you personally and is sending some gay porn to your mailing address so that he can turn you to the dark side. :rolleyes:

Alzrius

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2014, 11:28:08 AM »
Quote from: 1989
What exactly is he saying, here? That people who do not accept/endorse homosexuality (homosexuals are 2-3% of the population in North America) are bigots? Really?


Short answer: yes, if.

Longer answer: As Arroz mentioned, you don't need to "endorse" homosexuality, per se. However, the contemporary viewpoint does seem to be that people "need" to accept them - "need" here being understood as being "meeting the minimum requirement for acting in a morally acceptable manner."

Likewise, the understanding of what it means to be "accepting" of homosexuality is largely defined as not having a problem with people who identify that way (e.g. a "live and let live" attitude), and as an extension of that, finding no merit in any particular set of restrictions or taboos that cite homosexual behavior specifically, or otherwise disallow homosexuals from engaging in society in any manner that heterosexuals can.

In other words, you don't need to care very much about the issue of, for example, gay marriage to not be considered a bigot...but you do need to be against laws that are against gay marriage.

It's also worth noting that the statistics regarding how much of the population are homosexual are highly in dispute, do to issues of self-identification as being homosexual, and self-reporting on such surveys.

Quote from: 1989
As I was looking through the PHB at my local bookstore, I noticed that almost all the race illustrations were women. Likewise, it was my impression was that the same was true of the character class illustrations -- seemed to be mostly women represented. Is this a coincidence, or a result of having a female art team?


There's no way of knowing.

Knowing the answer to that question would involve not only interviewing the entire art team, but in necessarily being totally certain that their answers were true, which is - strictly speaking - not possible. The intent of, and influences on, the artist(s) are not something that can be communicated to the audience with total certainty.

On a tangential note, I will say that I think the idea of an all-female art team goes back to Zak S's idea that artist's should not be faulted for drawing what (presumably) appeals to them personally - the issue is that (if we presume that there are issues with the diversity found in artwork), a more diverse pool of artists need to be drawn from.

It's clear that Mearls is attempting to do so; the idea of going for an all-female team is meant to be a break from the larger set of contemporary/historical practices of all-/largely-male art teams. In this regard, I don't think that it's the start of any sort of anti-male trend, so much as it is an indication of the fact that, when things start to change, the pendulum will swing to the other extreme (and back again) before finding the center.

Quote from: 1989
This all rubbed me the wrong way.


I share your concerns, insofar as I think there's an undercurrent of "if you're against this, then you're a bad person," but only to a limited extent.

More specifically, while I find merit with the attitudes Mearls is displaying with regards to the real world - e.g. how laws, corporate policies, and social expectations are set - I don't hold that the same level of thinking applies to fiction and artwork. That said, it's a moot point here, since what's under discussion are aspects of the real world (those being attitudes towards homosexuals, and who is hired to draw the art), so I'm fine with what Mearls is doing here (though I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that the all-female art team isn't meant to be a new policy in place for WotC for all of its future projects).
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 11:35:19 AM by Alzrius »
"...player narration and DM fiat fall apart whenever there’s anything less than an incredibly high level of trust for the DM. The general trend of D&D’s design up through the end of 4e is to erase dependence on player-DM trust as much as possible, not to create antagonism, but to insulate both sides from it when it appears." - Brandes Stoddard

Haffrung

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2014, 11:38:16 AM »
It's an earnest - though largely misguided - effort by geeks of a particular generation to proclaim to the world that they're Good People.

There are a host of unchallenged assumptions underpinning the crusade, including the notion that the 'natural' makeup of RPG players is 50/50 male/female. That's no more of a natural split than an RPG market consisting of half players under 45 years old and half players over 45 years old. Where are the crusaders against the endemic and pervasive ageism in RPGs? I mean, the only possible explanation for game artwork almost exclusively depicting youthful-looking characters is ageism, right? And the RPG industry is passing up a goldmine by not marketing games towards 50-something, 60-something, and 70-something buyers, right?
 

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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2014, 11:39:44 AM »
Quote from: One Horse Town;793562
I'm getting tired of these trolls.
They must be killed. With fire. Or acid. Preferably with fire, then use acid on the ashes and drop the resulting slag into an active volcano.
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Bren

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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2014, 11:41:52 AM »
Quote from: Haffrung;793568
Where are the crusaders against the endemic and pervasive ageism in RPGs?
All around you. They call themselves the OSR. :p
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S'mon

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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2014, 11:53:15 AM »
Quote from: 1989;793545

What exactly is he saying, here? That people who do not accept/endorse homosexuality (homosexuals are 2-3% of the population in North America) are bigots? Really?


Well, he didn't actually say that, but yes I'm sure he would say that if you asked. If you pushed him I expect he'd toe the standard SJW line on all approved minorities, especially including all SJW-approved sexualities.

(a) He seems like a pretty normal Seattle liberal. He probably believes most or all of what he's expected to believe.
(b) He knows that you - the 'bigots' - can't hurt him*, whereas the SJW could run him out of a job if he doesn't toe the SJW line.

*You might hurt WoTC sales, but that is a lot less important to him than his own job and social status, I'm sure.

S'mon

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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2014, 12:02:02 PM »
Quote from: Haffrung;793568

There are a host of unchallenged assumptions underpinning the crusade, including the notion that the 'natural' makeup of RPG players is 50/50 male/female.


Yes, I agree that the idea that games about killing things and taking their stuff 'ought' to have a 50% female player base, seems silly. OTOH I was just watching the recent Lindybeige upload about a sci-fi convention in Croatia where most of the Pathfinder players at the con were female. IME 'normal' women often do like RPGs, but they tend to drift them a bit away from the male-favoured 'kill things get stuff' paradigm into areas they're more interested in. My wife for instance when she played D&D with female PCs was a lot more interested in the clothes fashions her PCs was wearing, something rarely of interest to many straight male players IME. She also didn't like to put her female PCs in danger. When she later on played male characters she played them very much in the typical masculine kill things/get stuff paradigm though.

S'mon

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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2014, 12:13:31 PM »
"Very early on, we decided that we were going to avoid bare midriffs, cleavage, and other common gaming tropes. We only use those if a specific character would actually dress that way."

Let me say that I am entirely on board with this. The bare-midriffed Rogues and boob-plate Fighters are incredibly stupid and annoying. The ironic thing is that it's not 'Old School' at all; the few depictions of female characters in the old books tended to have pretty realistic clothing & armour - eg the PHB Elf, or Aleena the Mentzer Cleric. Even 1981 BX Morgan Ironwolf's nipelette-mail looks reasonable compared to the midriff-baring bikini she'd have been put in 20 years later. The 'Thief' grabbed by the Efreet on the cover of the 1e DMG is an exception, but those are high level adventurers, she could conceivably be wearing Bracers of Defence, it's not nearly as stupid as say the 4e boobplate dwarves.

I think when it actually comes to pc & npc sexuality though, I think I prefer the 4e asexual 'don't ask don't tell' approach to Pathfinder's febrile focus. With 4e we could use our imaginations - eg with the FRCS I could choose to make Lady Moonfire lesbian, and Curuvar the Brazen gay, but I wasn't forced to deal with the designer making them homosexual, it was my choice and appropriate for my group. With Pathfinder I tried to run Wrath of the Righteous for my 7 year old and immediately had to deal with the ridiculously convoluted transgender and transsexual identities of the main NPCs.

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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2014, 12:20:30 PM »
I don't find anything Mearls said offensive, and it's his business to do what he likes.
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1989

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2014, 12:35:21 PM »
Quote from: One Horse Town;793562
I'm getting tired of these trolls.

Yes, Mearls hates you personally and is sending some gay porn to your mailing address so that he can turn you to the dark side. :rolleyes:


Not intending to troll, here. It's just that these issues sort of took me by surprise.

I haven't seen this sort of thing in an RPG before.

I was curious about whether others had made the same observations, and felt the same way.

1989

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2014, 12:39:48 PM »
Quote from: S'mon;793573
Well, he didn't actually say that, but yes I'm sure he would say that if you asked. If you pushed him I expect he'd toe the standard SJW line on all approved minorities, especially including all SJW-approved sexualities.

(a) He seems like a pretty normal Seattle liberal. He probably believes most or all of what he's expected to believe.
(b) He knows that you - the 'bigots' - can't hurt him*, whereas the SJW could run him out of a job if he doesn't toe the SJW line.

*You might hurt WoTC sales, but that is a lot less important to him than his own job and social status, I'm sure.


It's truly sad what this world has come to. We can't express dissent or disapproval without fear of losing employment.