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Author Topic: Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc  (Read 11126 times)

S'mon

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2014, 12:42:37 PM »
Quote from: 1989;793580
Not intending to troll, here. It's just that these issues sort of took me by surprise.

I haven't seen this sort of thing in an RPG before.

I was curious about whether others had made the same observations, and felt the same way.

Well, on balance I'd have slightly preferred* if they'd left out or rewritten that section in the PHB, but I'm certainly not surprised that Mearls thinks the way he does. Not only is WoTC a left-coast progressive company compared to old TSR, the US in general has had 25 years of Political Correctness as the leitkultur, 50 years at least of social Liberalism, and effective indoctrination at college level (the UK has also had PC since ca 1989, but our indoctrination system is far less organised and effective). That has affected attitudes of the general population, and it's not surprising that corporations reflect that.

*Mostly because there are certain GMs who will use text like that to harrass players to play non-straight PCs. I had to eventually yell at one guy "Hrothgar LIKES WOMEN!!" :D - And that was years before 5e.

S'mon

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2014, 12:46:25 PM »
Quote from: 1989;793581
It's truly sad what this world has come to. We can't express dissent or disapproval without fear of losing employment.


Yes; this is why the SJWs are bad, even if you agree with their views on particular issues, the methods they use to enforce obedience are morally wrong.

Alzrius

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2014, 12:52:12 PM »
Quote from: 1989;793581
It's truly sad what this world has come to. We can't express dissent or disapproval without fear of losing employment.


While I think that your statement is overbroadly worded, I understand what you meant, and I agree.

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that heaping social reprobation - to the point of organizing and directing it via social media to where it can impact someone's livelihood - is somehow acceptable because, unlike before, now we publicly shame people for the right reasons.
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Sacrosanct

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2014, 01:08:51 PM »
Trying to think of appropriate smileys as a response to this thread


:rolleyes::boohoo:

That'll work I suppose.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you're stupid, your PC will die.  If you're an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you're unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC's die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

S'mon

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2014, 01:17:01 PM »
Quote from: Sacrosanct;793591
Trying to think of appropriate smileys as a response to this thread


:rolleyes::boohoo:

That'll work I suppose.


I find your smileys triggering and problematic. I just vomited in my mouth a little.

Armchair Gamer

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2014, 01:53:38 PM »
As far as I can tell, 'bigot' has come to mean 'anyone who does not affirm the sacredness of any and all consensual sexual behaviors, identities, etc.'.

  It's not quite "Traditional Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. Need Not Play", but it's drifting in that direction. What I'm going to be really interested to see is, after the PHB has opened up sex and sexuality issues, the DMG dares to contain any hinting towards what Allen Varney, 20 years ago, called 'the great bugaboo of D&D worlds'--monotheism.

Sacrosanct

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2014, 01:59:18 PM »
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;793595
As far as I can tell, 'bigot' has come to mean 'anyone who does not affirm the sacredness of any and all consensual sexual behaviors, identities, etc.'.

  It's not quite "Traditional Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. Need Not Play", but it's drifting in that direction. What I'm going to be really interested to see is, after the PHB has opened up sex and sexuality issues, the DMG dares to contain any hinting towards what Allen Varney, 20 years ago, called 'the great bugaboo of D&D worlds'--monotheism.



Not sure if serious....
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you're stupid, your PC will die.  If you're an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you're unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC's die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Armchair Gamer

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2014, 02:01:28 PM »
Quote from: Sacrosanct;793596
Not sure if serious....


  First half is somewhat exaggerated for effect. Second half, about whether or not discussing alternative religious setups like montheism will be in the DMG, is an honest question--if the game's going to make such a big deal about sexual diversity, are they going to open it up to religious diversity as well? Or is the game going to continue its pattern of Symbiotic Neutralist Henotheism?

Kiero

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2014, 02:05:46 PM »
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;793595
As far as I can tell, 'bigot' has come to mean 'anyone who does not affirm the sacredness of any and all consensual sexual behaviors, identities, etc.'.


Yes, it's anyone who can't mind their own fucking business. What other people do in their bedrooms has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone else. If you don't like it, don't do it.
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snooggums

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2014, 02:10:45 PM »
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;793595
As far as I can tell, 'bigot' has come to mean 'anyone who does not affirm the sacredness of any and all consensual sexual behaviors, identities, etc.'.


No, bigot still means someone who is intolerant of others and refuses to accept them.

Comparing the acknowledgement of existence of other sexual behaviors and identities in an RPG to "affirming the sacredness of any and all consensual sexual behaviors, identities, etc." sounds like someone is is afraid that silence might be read as bigotry, when the opposite is true.

snooggums

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2014, 02:12:26 PM »
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;793597
First half is somewhat exaggerated for effect. Second half, about whether or not discussing alternative religious setups like montheism will be in the DMG, is an honest question--if the game's going to make such a big deal about sexual diversity, are they going to open it up to religious diversity as well? Or is the game going to continue its pattern of Symbiotic Neutralist Henotheism?


It was one fucking paragraph in a 300 page book, the only people making a big deal about it are those who are glad it happened and bigots who are upset.

Sacrosanct

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2014, 02:15:08 PM »
Quote from: snooggums;793601
It was one fucking paragraph in a 300 page book, the only people making a big deal about it are those who are glad it happened and bigots who are upset.


yeah, this.

And if the OP really wants a serious answer from me rather than my original post?

Grow up and get over it.  Who cares if the AD team is mostly women.  I don't look at the art to see if x% are women or not.  I look to see if it's good art that I like.  Jesus, you sound like those people who throw a fit if a book doesn't have x% of women.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you're stupid, your PC will die.  If you're an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you're unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC's die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

jhkim

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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2014, 02:45:44 PM »
Quote from: Alzrius;793587
While I think that your statement is overbroadly worded, I understand what you meant, and I agree.

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that heaping social reprobation - to the point of organizing and directing it via social media to where it can impact someone's livelihood - is somehow acceptable because, unlike before, now we publicly shame people for the right reasons.

Out of curiousity, what sort of social reprobation do you think is acceptable?  What is the line?

Personally, my two lines are: (1) I shouldn't lie about someone, although I can express a judgmental opinion, and (2) I shouldn't drag in people's personal lives or in general make it into a personal issue. This is not an absolute, but in general I prefer to talk about what someone writes/creates, not about who they are as people. However, if by telling the truth and expressing my honest opinion, I hurt someone's livelihood, that's not my problem. Yes, stuff like bad reviews and bad word-of-mouth hurt writers, but that shouldn't stifle how we speak (in my opinion).

Just to be clear:  This is the Internet. People of all ideological stripes will act like assholes. Some of them will guaranteed lie, troll, and engage in other bad behavior - up to harassing, libeling, and/or threatening. I'd like standards of behavior to improve, but that can't be done by attacking one ideological side or the other.

Omnifray

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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2014, 03:06:51 PM »
Quote from: S'mon;793575
With Pathfinder I tried to run Wrath of the Righteous for my 7 year old and immediately had to deal with the ridiculously convoluted transgender and transsexual identities of the main NPCs.

This right here is the single thing that most concerns me about having this evangelising for minority sexual identities and sexualities in the big-selling commercial mainstream games. We had a thread about this on here before, and people tried to argue that the game (D&D) is only aimed at people 12+, so it's a non-issue, but I call bullshit on that - no matter what it says on the cover, people will want to run this game for little kids, and little kids will get hold of it, and it should be up to the parents, or maybe the teachers, when little kids start thinking about these issues.

Before anyone starts with some stupid crap about bigotry, in my own games, specifically full-fat Omnifray and Soul's Calling, you can read the setting info as suggesting that certain eldritch beings have switched from male to female or vice-versa. I had that in my book 6 years ago (Omnifray Basic Handbook). And of course there was always that elf-god even in AD&D 1st edition. And that's fine. And *that passage* in the 5e DMG, if it were in a niche game aimed at adults, that would be fine too. And I would happily promote such a game myself, among adults, or probably even the 15+ age group.

But to me, this passage in the 5e DMG, purely because it's in THE mainstream game which all the kids will be playing, is one step along the road towards elementary schools having unisex lavatory facilities to promote inclusivity. There was a report on this happening at a British primary school in the press recently, and parents complaining that their little 7-year-old daughters were "holding it in" all day long instead of going to the toilet, because they didn't want to use the same facilities as 11-year-old boys. The school would not even confirm that it had a single transgender kid. Completely fucking ridiculous if you ask me. How is it possibly worth all that anguish (and physical harm) for those little girls for the sake of not having to make special ad hoc arrangements for maybe 1 child in 1,000?

If you think this is an expression of bigotry, you are a cunt. It is purely about a utilitarian approach to children's rights (the loos), and a reasonable respect for the parents' right to decide when the children encounter these themes and whether they are encouraged to roleplay them (the DMG passage).

Quote from: S'mon;793582
Well, on balance I'd have slightly preferred* if they'd left out or rewritten that section in the PHB, ...

*Mostly because there are certain GMs who will use text like that to harrass players to play non-straight PCs. I had to eventually yell at one guy "Hrothgar LIKES WOMEN!!" :D - And that was years before 5e.

I can see where you're coming from, but if it's a game among adults, ultimately, I don't see an issue there. Just like you did, adults can stick up for themselves, and those who can't, well, one paragraph in a rulebook isn't going to make or break them. Also, I don't see that the harm the book facilitates in this way is in any way demonstrably likely to outstrip the harm that it may avoid, by making people of minority identities/sexualities feel included.

For me, what swings it is the children, and the fact that this game is played by kids who are still at elementary school, or maybe one or two years older.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;793550
I do think that having a team of illustrators almost entirely consisting of women is sketchy if you don't consider diversity to include men. I'm not saying it has to be 50/50, but if the composition of the group is consciously engineered, I do have an issue with that if your goal is inclusion.

Surely the art-team should be made up of the best artists, regardless of sex, age, sexuality, gender identity, secondary sexual characteristics, race or religion. Give me a book filled with great art, and I don't care if it was drawn entirely by man-hating militant feminist lesbians, I am still going to be equally happy looking at the pictures. The artists draw the pictures they are asked to draw. If WotC wanted a book full of men in full plate and girls in skimpy nightdresses, that is what the artists would draw - or be fired. I don't see that the gender make-up of the team has anything to do with it. The only thing that matters is who is in charge of art-direction, and presumably that's going to be mainly one person for the sake of harmony. And that person could be (perhaps in different senses) a man and a woman at the same time, but if that were your criterion, you'd be restricting yourself to less than 0.7% of the possible pool of applicants...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 03:17:58 PM by Omnifray »
I did not write this but would like to mention it:-
http://jimboboz.livejournal.com/7305.html

I did however write this Player's Quickstarter for the forthcoming Soul's Calling RPG, free to download here, and a bunch of other Soul's Calling stuff available via Lulu.

As for this, I can't comment one way or the other on the correctness of the factual assertions made, but it makes for chilling reading:-
http://home.roadrunner.com/~b.gleichman/Theory/Threefold/GNS.htm

Skywalker

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Mike Mearls, Bigots, Homosexuality, Transgender, All-female Art Team, etc
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2014, 03:06:58 PM »
Quote from: 1989;793545
As I was looking through the PHB at my local bookstore, I noticed that almost all the race illustrations were women. Likewise, it was my impression that the same was true of the character class illustrations -- seemed to be mostly women represented. Is this a coincidence, or a result of having a female art team?


If you run the numbers there are 10 male race/class portraits and 11 female race/class portraits. So, its pretty balanced, though the rest of the book notably depicts more males than females.

Despite that, that does mean that there are more females in D&D depicted than normal for RPGs. I think your exaggerated reaction to a balance treatment in the race/class art just shows you how lacking that normal balance is.

I am not sure its a result of an all female art team. As said, the PHB and MM outside of the class/race portraits continues to notably favour males. I think its more just an increased awareness that D&D has a female audience and that majority of its male audience has no issues with seeing kick ass female heroes and scary female monsters and prefer to represent the wider world in a realistic manner in terms to the distribution of gender.

Quote from: 1989;793545
As I was reading the class descriptions, I noted that the female pronoun, she, was used in the descriptive text for almost all character classes. There would be one paragraph with "she" and then maybe a second paragraph with "he". So, I guess, they were trying to change it up and keep it fair. Still, though, it was interesting how "she" came first in most cases.


Again, if you count the examples, use of gender specific pronouns is actually pretty balanced. The class descriptions are either non-specific or cover both genders with "he or she". IMO this sort of balanced treatment shouldn't be noteworthy, but it is a shame that it is.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 03:09:20 PM by Skywalker »