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Author Topic: "Martial Artists"  (Read 3513 times)

David Johansen

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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2007, 11:29:30 PM »
Well I took Judo for a couple years, good way to get fit and flexible.  You learn to take a fall.  I was in a dozen odd serious fights in junior high and highschool and a lot of scuffles of the sort you can't really call a fight.  But I'd have to say I can recall around 5 tactical victories and two serious losses.  I never beat the crap out of anyone nor was I ever looking to.  Generally when I say tactical victory, I mean two or three well placed cheap shots getting me out of there before they'd finished showing off to their buddies and got serious.  The guy I chased down the street with a hatchet and the guy I pulled a knife on don't count.

Anyhow, the martial arts guy that scares me is the guy who runs the local mixed martial arts club.  Came into the shop for some shirts one day with his arm broken in seven places.  He'd carried through to win the tournament.  That's hard core and he is one scary guy.
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Tom B

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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2007, 12:28:08 PM »
I have to say that there are a lot of people who take a martial art and stay with it through black-belt rank that would be dangerous to mess with.  These aren't the ones who brag about it, these are the ones who are very pragmatic about it.  The ones who brag and show off?  Yeah, they're probably not much to worry about.  Way too overconfident.  Quite a few would probably fold in the face of real violence...at least the first time.

I know of at least five at my son's do-jon that would probably take you apart, though.  The scariest guy (apart from the instructor) is a handy-man.  Does plumbing and odd jobs.  Is probably 40-something, stands about 6' 6" and pushes 250-300 lbs.  He's a 3rd-rank black belt, and the guy doesn't seem to feel pain.  He knew how to street fight before he took karate.

To be fair, it depends on the school.  With some schools I've seen, you'd be pretty safe.  Especially those that don't use contact sparring.
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pspahn

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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2007, 02:25:07 PM »
Quote from: David Johansen

Anyhow, the martial arts guy that scares me is the guy who runs the local mixed martial arts club.  Came into the shop for some shirts one day with his arm broken in seven places.  He'd carried through to win the tournament.  That's hard core and he is one scary guy.


Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) is the martial art that has eclipsed all other martial arts.  It's a combination of striking, wrestling, and grappling (particularly Brazlilian Jiu-jitsu).  It's equal parts physical and mental.  It's violent, it's technical, but most of all it's _practical_.  If you don't know what to do when someone tackles you and ends up on top of you, you're through.  If you know what to do on the ground, but that's ALL you know, you're going to get your face pounded into mush before you can lock in that pretty arm bar or choke.  Watch the UFC, IFL, Pride, and King of the Cage to see what I'm talking about.  

I've been training MMA for about 4-5 years now and here I am talking about it which means I officially rate low on the badass levelometer.  That's a pretty fair assessment--I know just enough to be brave enough to get really hurt by someone who really knows what they're doing.   :)

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David Johansen

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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2007, 11:08:41 PM »
Every technical fighting style has its weaknesses.  Even learning all of them means mastering none of them to the extent the next guy did.  None of them make you immune to a mean bastard with a table leg that takes out your knee cap before you realize you're in a fight.  Nor a guy with a gun, a little space, and less conscience.
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pspahn

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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2007, 11:34:21 PM »
Quote from: David Johansen
Nor a guy with a gun, a little space, and less conscience.


One of my favorite quotes was from a Robert E. Howard short story about a conquistador who shot an Aztec priest (who survived only by dark magic).  When the priest got to examine the gun he said something to the effect of:  "This will make men soft and harden them all the more."   No martial art is going to stop a bullet.  Well, maybe Shinanju.  

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Spike

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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2007, 02:01:32 AM »
Quote from: pspahn
  No martial art is going to stop a bullet.  Well, maybe Shinanju.  

Pete



I got a Samurai Western PS2 game that says you're wrong!

I just think it's funny: When I was taking martial arts back as a nipper I was a crappy student, couldn't break the boards, crap form, and just generally slower than the other students to progress.

Except: When we went to the tournement, where everyone else lost in the first round and I went up. Long limbs and a willingness to take a hit if it meant getting my licks in turned out to be more important.

That was before I could afford my own doughnuts or computer (not that individual home computers were common or anything back then...) now, I struggle to master forum fu. Sloppy technique, but I am immune to most rhetoric... the bull in teh china shop is all the technique I need...:raise:


Well, that and a gun. To shoot the computer if I lose.
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Drew

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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2007, 02:49:04 AM »
Quote from: pspahn
Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) is the martial art that has eclipsed all other martial arts.  It's a combination of striking, wrestling, and grappling (particularly Brazlilian Jiu-jitsu).  It's equal parts physical and mental.  It's violent, it's technical, but most of all it's _practical_.  If you don't know what to do when someone tackles you and ends up on top of you, you're through.  If you know what to do on the ground, but that's ALL you know, you're going to get your face pounded into mush before you can lock in that pretty arm bar or choke.  Watch the UFC, IFL, Pride, and King of the Cage to see what I'm talking about.  


My brother was taught something like this as part of his Royal Marine Commando training. You're bang on regarding the practicality aspect-- the techniques they emphasise focus on either killing, crippling or incapacitating as quickly as possible. The regimental instructors spent decades cherry-picking the fastest and most brutally effective moves they could from different fighting styles across the world, until all that was left was the kind of stuff that most disciplines would consider a last resort. He went on to supplement his knowledge with a swathe of joint locking moves picked up whilst working with violent offenders for HM Prison Service.

It's deeply scary stuff, tempered only by the fact that he's one of the friendliest, most personable blokes you're likely to meet. Some of that I'm sure is an offshoot of the confidence his training has given him in dealing with potentially dangerous scenarios. Despite all that (and this is the crucial difference between him and the vast majority of self-proclaimed "masters" I've met) his first bit of advice to anyone who finds themselves in a threatening situation is to run.
 

Sosthenes

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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2007, 08:55:22 AM »
Meh, "modern martial arts" has some severe limitations too. Most confrontations aren't one on one in a featureless cage environment. Most armies don't have time to train soldiers for years until they reach peak performance, they have to attain a reasonable level pretty fast...
 

Drew

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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2007, 09:09:40 AM »
Quote from: Sosthenes
Meh, "modern martial arts" has some severe limitations too. Most confrontations aren't one on one in a featureless cage environment. Most armies don't have time to train soldiers for years until they reach peak performance, they have to attain a reasonable level pretty fast...


I think the quality and consistency of training depends very much on the country of origin and the regiment served in. The Royal Engineers aren't taught a great deal beyond the basics, AFAIK. Other regiments that expect to see a lot of frontline action are pushed pretty bloody hard throughout their term of service.
 

Sosthenes

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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2007, 10:35:29 AM »
Quote from: Drew
I think the quality and consistency of training depends very much on the country of origin and the regiment served in. The Royal Engineers aren't taught a great deal beyond the basics, AFAIK. Other regiments that expect to see a lot of frontline action are pushed pretty bloody hard throughout their term of service.

Still, from a pure scientific point of view, soldier training has to work under certain premises. The big bonus is that you can expect the guys to be reasonably fit (alt least). They have to learn a lot in basic training, though. Versatility will certainly suffer under these aspects.
Now the big question is whether versatility (i.e. lots of techniques) is actually worth a damn crap. Still, some tricks that would require a very high level of precision and thus lots of training just isn't the right thing for soldiers. Also, lots of times they're able to cheat by using knifes and guns ;)

Still, I'd rate the better military stuff quite high, as this comes from people actually seeing action under a multitude of circumstances. It also gets rather popular with things like Krav Maga. Hard to keep one on SF-style fitness levels outside the forces, though ;)
 

pspahn

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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2007, 02:21:29 PM »
Quote from: Spike
I got a Samurai Western PS2 game that says you're wrong!


Clearly, your primitive Western mind cannot grasp the true power of Sinanju.

Pete

*Interestingly, The Master of Sinanju (Chiun) echoes RPGPundit's assertion:  "The most dangerous man is he who does not appear dangerous."
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Scale

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« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2007, 02:30:05 PM »
 

Theodore Sign

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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2007, 10:26:03 PM »
Well played, sir.
 

RPGPundit

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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2007, 10:54:14 PM »
Hilarious.

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Sigmund

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« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2007, 03:39:22 PM »
Quote from: Sosthenes
Still, from a pure scientific point of view, soldier training has to work under certain premises. The big bonus is that you can expect the guys to be reasonably fit (alt least). They have to learn a lot in basic training, though. Versatility will certainly suffer under these aspects.
Now the big question is whether versatility (i.e. lots of techniques) is actually worth a damn crap. Still, some tricks that would require a very high level of precision and thus lots of training just isn't the right thing for soldiers. Also, lots of times they're able to cheat by using knifes and guns ;)

Still, I'd rate the better military stuff quite high, as this comes from people actually seeing action under a multitude of circumstances. It also gets rather popular with things like Krav Maga. Hard to keep one on SF-style fitness levels outside the forces, though ;)


Another difference is that, at least in the US Army, we trained as units. I learned very little about fighting individually (although we did have some unarmed and bayonet combat training), and a great deal about moving and operating as a unit (mostly squad and platoon levels). Our platoons had 3 infantry squads, two fire teams each, and an M60 squad of 2 gun crews (I was on a gun crew, first as AG and then as gunner). Each team in each squad had a SAW gunner, and each team had a guy with an M203. Then, at the company level we had a mortar platoon for support. Anti-tank weaponry would be handed out on a need basis, with about a third of us trained in using the Dragon in AIT (including me, the Dragon was pretty cool).

I was in the 82nd Airborne Division, which has a few differences from leg units, and all this was in the mid/late 80s and has probably changed a good deal since then. The point remains though, I think.
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