Male self-hatred; as "woke" as can be

[deadDMwalking]

"Mindful Masculinity" sounds a bit too touchy feely for me, but I appreciate her approach you're describing.
If there's room in the world for non-traditional men, surely there's room for traditionally masculine men. In the drive to "feminize" men, we do a disservice in areas of domestic violence and mental health programs telling them they're "toxic".
The continuing rate of suicide among men is, IMO, a failure of "progressive" approaches to mental health that fail to address men's psychological makeup.

Suicide is a major health crisis, and it deserves a lot of attention and resources.  

That said, the current high rate of suicide is NOT the highest it has been.  Suicide rates fell sharply after World War II; they were significantly higher for the first third of the 20th century.  You'll of course note that this high rate of suicide could not have been caused by any perceived attack on 'male gender roles'.

[CarlD.]

"Mindful Masculinity" sounds a bit too touchy feely for me, but I appreciate her approach you're describing.

'
Its annoying but expected that the push for male parental leave mostly seem to gaining traction as its being framed as a push for women's equality (not forcing the role of child care on them), getting "lazy men" (the one with the higher rates for essentially working themselves to death in one fashion or another) to put in more work in the home and other benefits to women so people, particularly zealous, bordering misandryist proponents of modern feminism, will care.

[Ratman_tf]

That said, the current high rate of suicide is NOT the highest it has been.  Suicide rates fell sharply after World War II; they were significantly higher for the first third of the 20th century.  You'll of course note that this high rate of suicide could not have been caused by any perceived attack on 'male gender roles'.

I intentionally didn't say it was the the highest it has ever been.
As the chart you linked shows, suicide rates were at a low in 2000, when they started to trend back up.

[jhkim]

The problem that I have with the term "toxic masculinity" is that it's completely unspecific. The term "toxic" here isn't clarifying, it's just another way of saying "bad".

I think it's fine to think that some traditionally masculine behaviors are wrong. I think that hitting your kids to teach them a lesson is wrong -- it either teaches kids to knuckle under to bullying, or it teaches them the opposite of what was intended. Conversely, some forms of vicious gossip are a feminine tradition - those are also wrong.

Even to the people who use the term, I don't think that "toxic masculinity" has a very clear definition other than "parts of masculine tradition I don't like". For example, here's a popular image I've seen purporting to show non-toxic masculinity.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3834[/ATTACH]

Nothing wrong with the sentiment in itself, but it's not very clarifying about what is toxic and non-toxic, given a very wide range of masculine characters and traits.

"Mindful Masculinity" sounds a bit too touchy feely for me, but I appreciate her approach you're describing.
If there's room in the world for non-traditional men, surely there's room for traditionally masculine men. In the drive to "feminize" men, we do a disservice in areas of domestic violence and mental health programs telling them they're "toxic".
The continuing rate of suicide among men is, IMO, a failure of "progressive" approaches to mental health that fail to address men's psychological makeup.

From what I see, the suicide rate is particularly high in conservative parts of the U.S. -- so I'm doubtful about conservative approaches being any better. It's also rising higher among whites and Native Americans than other races/ethnicities.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/05/24/mapping-the-rising-tide-of-suicide-deaths-across-the-united-states/?noredirect=on

[HappyDaze]

Comedy is a personal thing. I find him hilarious. His stage persona seemed to give a voice to some anger that men tend to feel. I mean he could be a poster here. LOL
But if it didn't float your boat, it didn't. No harm done. I like Chris Rock and Dave Chapelle (Burr reminds me of them some degree) so I Kat Williams recommended quite a bit and don't like his stage persona much, though his material is along the same lines as Rock and Chapelle.

On a different note, I was watching and interview with Liz Plank, author of "For the Love of Men", a book on fostering what she called 'Mindful Masculinity' (she deliberately avoids using the term toxic masculinity,in her book considering it insulting to men, for one thing).At one point she was talking about parental leave and how many men don't take advantage of it feeling they'll look weak or not driven enough but really should when one of the women in that talk comes with "Yeah, we should start stigmatizing men that don't take their parental leave!" No, talk to, not encourage them to do it but stigmatize and attack them... You could see Ms Plank inwardly sigh at that too that kind of knee jerk "Punish men for being men" so called feminist reaction too, but it was illustrative of some of the mind set around these issue.

With Burr, I grew tired of the continuous angry man bit. In contrast, Chappelle had angry mixed with other affects and it appealed to me more. In this, it's not unlike my preference for meals with multiple distinct items on the plate rather than one mixed dish with a single flavor.

[Gagarth]

I think it's fine to think that some traditionally masculine behaviors are wrong. I think that hitting your kids to teach them a lesson is wrong -- it either teaches kids to knuckle under to bullying, or it teaches them the opposite of what was intended.

So hitting your kids is something only men do.  Why am I not surprised you would think that.

[CarlD.]

As I understand its origin, the term Toxic Masculinity stems from the MRA movement where it came into being as a descrition/complaint against the depiction of men in allot of media: as innately violwnt, brutal and emotionally limited to dealing with each other, the world and issues with rage, aggression and violence (or even as weak when they demonstrated other mindsets and emotions). Funny how much meanings can shift over time.

[Pat]

Just to throw out a hypothetical, what do you think the response would be if people started using "toxic femininity" to describe the negative aspects of femininity?

[Ratman_tf]

As I understand its origin, the term Toxic Masculinity stems from the MRA movement where it came into being as a descrition/complaint against the depiction of men in allot of media: as innately violwnt, brutal and emotionally limited to dealing with each other, the world and issues with rage, aggression and violence (or even as weak when they demonstrated other mindsets and emotions). Funny how much meanings can shift over time.

Specifically, the mythopoetic Men's Movement, which was a bit different than the current MRAs.

[CarlD.]

Just to throw out a hypothetical, what do you think the response would be if people started using "toxic femininity" to describe the negative aspects of femininity?

For quite a few "Misogyny!" their standard responce to pretty much any criticism of women (or even A woman.) I've heard it muttered darkly even when the possibility of Female Privilege or Misandry has been discussed or when there is a female antagonist in a work of fiction that doesn't have an origin or motivation that is considered acceptably sympathetic.

Specifically, the mythopoetic Men's Movement, which was a bit different than the current MRAs.

Interestimg, perhaps my sources conflated them or were conisdering one certain aspects of  the pretty vilified Men's Right Activist groups. They do share some aspects including, IME, being mocked for being weak, whiny and (somewhat ironically) unmanly by many, including some feminists.

[Spinachcat]

Just to throw out a hypothetical, what do you think the response would be if people started using "toxic femininity" to describe the negative aspects of femininity?

[video=youtube;p46AXCtue9c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p46AXCtue9c[/youtube]

[CarlD.]

Speaking of male acceptance of shame, etc...

Why are so called gendered insults only an issue when they refer to women?

Calling someone a pussy or a cunt is wrong but its perfectly all right to call them a dick or a tool, don't shame small breasts but feel free to insult penis size and equate it to virility, courage or overall masculinity.

I mean I have seen people say "Don't call him a pussy, that's sexist, you dick!"  LOL

[Ratman_tf]

Speaking of male acceptance of shame, etc...

Why are so called gendered insults only an issue when they refer to women?

Calling someone a pussy or a cunt is wrong but its perfectly all right to call them a dick or a tool, don't shame small breasts but feel free to insult penis size and equate it to virility, courage or overall masculinity.

I mean I have seen people say "Don't call him a pussy, that's sexist, you dick!"  LOL

It's assumed that men are stoic* and more capable of taking on responsibility than women. From "teaching men not to rape" to the double standard of gendered insults. There's some tiny pushback from progressives who can see the hypocracy, but it never amounts to much.

*And then shamed for their stoicism.

[Crimhthan]

Just to throw out a hypothetical, what do you think the response would be if people started using "toxic femininity" to describe the negative aspects of femininity?

Shhh! Real Men don't talk about "toxic femininity," we just make allowances for it and get on with our lives. :eek:

[Opaopajr]

I'm like already beyond even toxic androgyny, you... beings! :rolleyes: Waiting for y'all to reach to my level.
%wasoveritbeforeyouevenknewaboutit (yeah, we don't use number signs anymore either, slo-pokes.)
:cool: /sips cold-pressed bone broth thru a brass straw