This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: Magic = Cultural Appropriation  (Read 1345 times)

JamesV

  • Revolutionary
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1581
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« on: April 09, 2017, 09:10:32 PM »
The Twitter row of the moment is some lady saying white people shouldn't do magic. Heat Street summarized it well here

If I haven't read nuttier online before, I'd be scratching my head on a regular basis.
Running: Dogs of WAR - Beer & Pretzels & Bullets
Planning to Run: Godbound or Stars Without Number
Playing: Star Wars D20 Rev.

A lack of moderation doesn't mean saying every asshole thing that pops into your head.

Tristram Evans

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2017, 09:25:00 PM »
Social Justice and Ignorant Idiocy go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Armchair Gamer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 3009
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 09:42:53 PM »
She's right that white people shouldn't be doing magic.

  Neither should anyone else. :)

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14805
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 11:15:48 PM »
Whites should only do White Magic and Blacks should only do Black Magic!!

Oh wait...

JamesV

  • Revolutionary
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1581
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2017, 06:51:40 AM »
Ha! And one of the replies accused the OP of being colorist, because all magic comes from Africa!

Most of my friends use the internet, but somehow managed to avoid most of this weird culture war stuff. Pretty much every time I've brought stuff like this up, they look at me like I'm crazy.
Running: Dogs of WAR - Beer & Pretzels & Bullets
Planning to Run: Godbound or Stars Without Number
Playing: Star Wars D20 Rev.

A lack of moderation doesn't mean saying every asshole thing that pops into your head.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2017, 09:49:41 PM »
I already commented on this on Twitter, and on G+.  Here's a repost of my comments on G+:

Hilarious. But this has actually been going on in occultism for a long time.
Remember, 90% of occultism is crap, 90% of occultist are posers who do nothing.  There's no better mix than SJWs, posing, and crap; they're all natural bonds to each other.

Amusingly this has even had an effect in RPGs; consider Blue Rose designer Steve Kenson, who is married to Christopher Penczak, a highly successful writer of utter garbage books on magic and witchcraft.  Kenson is himself a 'wiccan priest', or was calling himself that a while back anyways.

But I'm not talking about Blue Rose here; rather Shadowrun.  From some Shadowrun fans I've talked to, they attributed Kenson with utterly wrecking the previously careful balance in Shadowrun's magic system between Hermetic and Shamanic magic (note: no idea if this was later repaired in subsequent editions; I heard this back when 3e Shadowrun was the contemporary one). Why did he do this? Because Kenson's real-life belief was that obviously Shamanic magic had to be more powerful because it was based on "nature" and "inuition/feelings" and that must be more powerful than the 'intellectual' hermetic magic.  Note: real shamanism isn't really based on either of these thing any more than real hermetic magic, but that's an idea that most New-age types have embraced, where "nature" translates to 300lb women with oxygen tanks calling themselves Earth Goddesses because reasons, and where "feeling and intuition" translates into "I don't actually have to do any hard work, study, or even produce any kind of results whatsoever, I can just call myself a wiccan high priest and I am one because I FEEL that way".

Anyways, the hilarious "I'm more legit ancient primitive witchcraft than you" OP material above is absurdly wrong. Magical practices originated spontaneously in pretty well every culture; they're based on observations of reality and the human condition.
And since these observations became more profound in more advanced cultures, the 'technology' of magic became more effective the more advanced a culture became (symbols could become more complex, methods of connecting to altered states and the quality of insights derived therefrom more sophisticated, changes in consciousness more advanced, ability to effect change in the world more notable - and of course, the philosophy and the 'hard sciences' that branched off from magic became more culture-changing).
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Mordred Pendragon

  • All Antifa Are Bastards
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2702
  • Mordred Did Nothing Wrong
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2017, 10:10:49 PM »
Wait, the SJW's are complaining over fucking magic? Not even something as obscure as Occultism is safe from these fuckers.

I'm a pagan, but I do not dabble in magic and I am not a fan of Wicca in any way. It may not be as tyrannical or odious as the Judeo-Christian or Islamic traditions (from my perspective anyway, to others, Christianity and Islam give them peace and I respect their right to believe in it), but if the Abrahamic worldview is too strict, then Wicca is not strict enough. Wicca was a total fabrication dating back to the 1940's when Gerald Gardner and his wife decided to misappropriate a mix of Victorian occultism and Northern European traditions as seen through the viewpoints of Margaret Murray (who has since been discredited) and modern Wicca is way too feel-good hippie-dippy New Age SJW for someone like me. Too much grab-bag syncretic nonsense mixed with faux New Age poser garbage.

To me, Wicca is like the Calvin Ball of religion. It has literally one thing they can all agree on and everything else is just made up on the spot. Again, this is just my opinion, so take my words with a grain of salt. If I offended any Wiccans, I am sorry. This is just my point of view and nothing more, so feel free to disagree with me (same goes to any Christians or Muslims who may have read the beginning of this post)

The ironic part is that most of these SJW's who are complaining about "cultural appropriation" are most likely Wiccans, which is entirely founded on appropriating other cultures and has been since its inception in the late 1940's and early 1950's.

Now, I'll admit I'm not the best Roman polytheist. Far from it, actually. But at least with the Polytheistic Reconstruction branches of Paganism, there are historical precedents, even if primary sources are scarce. And the practice of magic and occultism is entirely optional in most of these groups.

So, to reiterate what Pundit said, most occultists are bullshit, and most SJW's are bullshit as well. Combine them both and it's a disaster.

On an unrelated note, fuck the Nazi assholes who are trying to hijack Norse polytheism. I hate those motherfuckers and I'm not even a Norse pagan.
Sic Semper Tyrannis

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14805
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2017, 04:32:20 AM »
Quote from: Doc Sammy;956535
To me, Wicca is like the Calvin Ball of religion.


THAT is hysterical!

Always good to hear a Calvin & Hobbes reference, and deeply appropriate.

But if you meet a crazy hot Wiccan priestess, just roll with the nuttiness.

Mordred Pendragon

  • All Antifa Are Bastards
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2702
  • Mordred Did Nothing Wrong
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2017, 07:40:33 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;956579
THAT is hysterical!

Always good to hear a Calvin & Hobbes reference, and deeply appropriate.

But if you meet a crazy hot Wiccan priestess, just roll with the nuttiness.

Oh, I will.
Sic Semper Tyrannis

TrippyHippy
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 2003
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2017, 08:15:56 AM »
There was a disclaimer once, I think in the Second Edition of Kult, that stated something to the effect of:

Quote
We have a hard time taking the Occult seriously. It is interesting as a historical phenomena, fun (for writers) like a colourful toy, but idiotic if taken as the basis of a set of religious beliefs. Sorry if this offends anyone.

I kinda go along with this, certainly in the context of game writing. In terms of the 'truth' found in the occult, I regard it in the same light as psychodynamic theories (Freud, etc).They are culturally interesting as they appeal to aspects of the human condition that are relatively unexplored by modern science. But there is, nevertheless, a load of gobbildy-gook that you just have to filter out as merely being personal allusions.

With regards to the indignation of yet another so-called online 'SJW', I just say 'where do you dig them up'? Her views really aren't representative of anything.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 08:19:21 AM by TrippyHippy »
I pretended that a picture of a toddler was representative of the Muslim Migrant population to Europe and then lied about a Private Message I sent to Pundit when I was admonished for it.  (Edited by Admin)

ningauble

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2017, 08:49:09 AM »
It's a stupid position but there is a grain of Truth to it, I think. A lot of white people just can't bring themselves to take an interest in their own heritage(s), they have to waddle over to someone else's and sit on it. It used to be American Indians, now it's ... What? Santareia? Shamanism?

Cultural exchange is a good thing when it happens naturally, but when it's just clueless white hipsters without roots following the latest trendy thing, I can see how it would be annoying.

The funny thing is that they're complaining about Wicca which, at its core, is very English, and so can actually be a step away from cultural appropriation for white people. Wicca gets a lot of shit, and a lot of Wccans are quite fake, but at least it's vaguely based on cultural traditions (Anglo Saxon, Celtic) that in many cases match the adherent's own cultural background.

Again, I'm all for cultural exchange when everyone's on board but there are a lot of phonies out there who would be better off just going to the church they grew up in if they're looking to get "spiritual."
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 10:55:53 AM by ningauble »

ningauble

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2017, 10:04:19 AM »
So now that I've salvaged the grain of truth, on to the bullshit:

Quote
A Hispanic witch, or bruja, weighed in to say she agreed with Sanam. She stated that watching her white friends mess around with Tarot cards made her uncomfortable.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't tarot originate in Europe? I know the most popular deck, the Rider-Waite was developed by the Golden Dawn in England. I hope this "bruja" isn't using the Rider-Waite.

Is it possible that the Bruja, with her tarot use, was appropriating from the Wiccan? Aw snap. When you're phonier than a Wiccan, it's time for some self-reflection.

crkrueger

  • Hulk in the Vineyard
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12559
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2017, 02:20:34 PM »
Quote from: ningauble;956625
So now that I've salvaged the grain of truth, on to the bullshit:



Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't tarot originate in Europe? I know the most popular deck, the Rider-Waite was developed by the Golden Dawn in England. I hope this "bruja" isn't using the Rider-Waite.

Is it possible that the Bruja, with her tarot use, was appropriating from the Wiccan? Aw snap. When you're phonier than a Wiccan, it's time for some self-reflection.

I think the root word is Italian, and I think playing cards in general came to Europe from Italy via trade with Egypt.  I think it took a couple hundred years for the divination aspect to show up, but there definitely is a Spanish/Italian tradition of the Tarot, but there also is German and I think the divination aspect may have started in France.  I think the whole Kabbalah thing has been debunked but maybe Pundit can weigh in. Been forever since I've done any research into it.  Pretty sure the "Tarot is Spanish" thing is horseshit though.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Tristram Evans

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2017, 05:22:39 PM »
Playing cards originated in China, were "culturally appropriated" by India and Persia,then "culturally appropriated" over to Egypt before being "culturally appropriated" to Europe, and then Japan "culturally appropriated" them from Portugal. Tarot cards began as an Italian card game with no connection to magic or mysticism. Romany fortune tellers began using tarot cards for divination in the 19th century when they found that Europeans expected it of them for some reason, prior to that they'd simply used a standard card deck for cartomancy.

crkrueger

  • Hulk in the Vineyard
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12559
Magic = Cultural Appropriation
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2017, 05:28:50 PM »
Quote from: Tristram Evans;956751
Playing cards originated in China, were "culturally appropriated" by India and Persia,then "culturally appropriated" over to Egypt before being "culturally appropriated" to Europe, and then Japan "culturally appropriated" them from Portugal. Tarot cards began as an Italian card game with no connection to magic or mysticism. Romany fortune tellers began using tarot cards for divination in the 19th century when they found that Europeans expected it of them for some reason, prior to that they'd simply used a standard card deck for cartomancy.

Wasn't there supposed to be some form of ties to ancient egypt in the French version?  I think  it was hogwash meant to capitalize on Egyptology of the Victorian Age in general but I remember reading something about that.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans