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Author Topic: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021  (Read 117841 times)

Shasarak

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1080 on: May 28, 2021, 01:13:07 AM »
I accept that you do want to phase coal power generation out.  But unfortunately there is that second undecided step to your plan, what is going to fill the energy gap?

You say that California has 0% coal powered electricity production and at the same time also has rolling brownouts every summer.

Maybe you should check out Planet Of The Humans by Michael Moore which goes into the Green Energy scam a little more deeply.

Minor correction - California has one coal-powered electricity plant, but it's over 400 miles away from me, and I know I'm not drawing power from it.

As for what will fill the gap - I would say a mix of nuclear, wind, solar, hydro, as well as oil and natural gas. And yes, I've already seen Planet of the Humans - thanks for the recommendation. It's an important perspective. Solar and wind are not the panacea they are sometimes touted as, but that doesn't mean that there are no differences between anything and nothing matters. There are successful solar and wind installations - but there are also plenty of ill-conceived plans as well as complete scams. Plenty of other companies also aren't trustworthy - including coal companies.

As for brownouts, the average California service interruptions without major events is about 2 hours per customer per year, which is roughly the average in the U.S. If you include major events - which for us is mostly wildfires - then we have nearly 10 hours per year, which is high, but that doesn't reflect problems in power generation. For reference, Maine and West Virginia have higher interruption averages - while Michigan and Mississippi have similar.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45796

5 times more then the National average?  Thats bad.  Thats 395 million person hours of no power.
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jhkim

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1081 on: May 28, 2021, 01:44:34 AM »
As for brownouts, the average California service interruptions without major events is about 2 hours per customer per year, which is roughly the average in the U.S. If you include major events - which for us is mostly wildfires - then we have nearly 10 hours per year, which is high, but that doesn't reflect problems in power generation. For reference, Maine and West Virginia have higher interruption averages - while Michigan and Mississippi have similar.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45796

5 times more then the National average?  Thats bad.  Thats 395 million person hours of no power.

Did you click to see the chart? 2 hours is the national average without major events, 5 hours is the national average with major events. (This is for 2019.)

So yeah, in 2019, we had double the national average with major events. Wildfires sucked. But it's not like coal power would have made our wildfires better. It's the fault of our forest management, not our renewable energy.

EDITED TO ADD: In 2016, the largest service interruptions were South Carolina, North Carolina, West Virginia, and Maine. It varies year to year based on local problems.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=35652
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 01:53:20 AM by jhkim »

oggsmash

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1082 on: May 28, 2021, 07:49:24 AM »
  Hydrogen Fire plants are the best gap fillers and probably the best big energy producer IMO.   What all of you guys need to ask is why have you never heard of this?   Your politicians are fucking retards is the likely answer.   They also do not understand or endorse nuclear power, which is the best source of power until we have widespread hydrogen fire plants.

    So because of all the idiots in congress who never mention nuclear or hydrogen fire (the same fucktards who hide under desks at the sound of a slamming door, yet think they should be able to send soldiers to combat) I know for certain they are not in any way serious people. 

   Regarding Cali and being coal free (but damn sure not fossil fuel free) they also import over a third of their power dont they?   The way power grids work, and wattage hours are sold between plants and grids, NO ONE is going to be 100 percent coal free simply due to physical distance.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 07:51:01 AM by oggsmash »

oggsmash

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1083 on: May 28, 2021, 07:52:45 AM »
As for brownouts, the average California service interruptions without major events is about 2 hours per customer per year, which is roughly the average in the U.S. If you include major events - which for us is mostly wildfires - then we have nearly 10 hours per year, which is high, but that doesn't reflect problems in power generation. For reference, Maine and West Virginia have higher interruption averages - while Michigan and Mississippi have similar.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45796

5 times more then the National average?  Thats bad.  Thats 395 million person hours of no power.

Did you click to see the chart? 2 hours is the national average without major events, 5 hours is the national average with major events. (This is for 2019.)

So yeah, in 2019, we had double the national average with major events. Wildfires sucked. But it's not like coal power would have made our wildfires better. It's the fault of our forest management, not our renewable energy.

EDITED TO ADD: In 2016, the largest service interruptions were South Carolina, North Carolina, West Virginia, and Maine. It varies year to year based on local problems.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=35652

   Those states interruptions are due to storms and having green trees.  Something that is no where near as common in Cali.  A power interruption from storms and brown outs from lack of juice are very, very different circumstances.

Brad

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1084 on: May 28, 2021, 10:06:46 AM »
You're a special kind of retard if you think wind and solar can put any sort of dent into the gap that would be left by completely eliminating oil and coal. Hydro is actually really good, but most of the places in the US that are good candidates for dams already have them. Nuke COULD do it, but of course dumbfucks in California and other leftist shitholes just cannot bear to have nuclear power plants anywhere. For all the crap Texas got during the fucking snow storm (99% of THAT problem was bureaucratic nonsense caused specifically by "green energy" advocates...leftists strike again!), San Antonio and most of the valley pull power from a nuke site which means lower than the national average for kWH.

Anyway, what will happen is the US gets rid of oil and coal and we have no power because LOL WIND, so we end up buying power from somewhere else, probably a Chinese-owned coal burning plant down in Mexico and we'll get charged 50X what it's worth. This whole line of reasoning is purely political and has nothing to do with reality.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 10:08:54 AM by Brad »
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Pat
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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1085 on: May 28, 2021, 11:15:30 AM »
Pretty much everything that has to do with green energy is political. They claim it's nearly as cost effective as <some evil non-green energy>, but don't include subsidies, or don't include standby costs, or don't include lifecycle costs, or don't include storage costs, or don't include transmission costs. They fudge the numbers as badly as they do with the government debt.

Brad

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1086 on: May 28, 2021, 11:37:04 AM »
Pretty much everything that has to do with green energy is political. They claim it's nearly as cost effective as <some evil non-green energy>, but don't include subsidies, or don't include standby costs, or don't include lifecycle costs, or don't include storage costs, or don't include transmission costs. They fudge the numbers as badly as they do with the government debt.

You mean like Chevy Volts costing $30k to buy when they actually cost about $75k to make but were heavily subsidized by the Federal government so people would buy them? That sort of stuff?
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Pat
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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1087 on: May 28, 2021, 11:48:32 AM »
Pretty much everything that has to do with green energy is political. They claim it's nearly as cost effective as <some evil non-green energy>, but don't include subsidies, or don't include standby costs, or don't include lifecycle costs, or don't include storage costs, or don't include transmission costs. They fudge the numbers as badly as they do with the government debt.

You mean like Chevy Volts costing $30k to buy when they actually cost about $75k to make but were heavily subsidized by the Federal government so people would buy them? That sort of stuff?
Or including the disposal costs of wind turbines once they pass their expected lifespan. Or extrapolating the costs of wind and solar power in areas that are well suited to it to the rest of the country. Or including the costs of non-clean energy plants that have to kept running and on standby to take up the slack when intermittent energy sources like solar or wind are intermittent. Or padding the green energy numbers by including biofuels (i.e. burning forests). Or ignoring the massive (trillion$) infrastructure upgrades needed to support green energy. Or....

We're at capacity for hydro. Wind and solar are already in place in the areas where it makes the most sense, and they're also useful in other circumstances where a small amount of power needs to be generated in an area where we'd have to extend the power grid (those solar panels on certain traffic lights, for instance). But otherwise, we should be switching to gas and nuclear instead of pretending that wind and solar are miracle energies, and pushing money into basic research on things like batteries and piezoelectric panels instead of subsidizing consumer end-products.

jhkim

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1088 on: May 28, 2021, 01:33:44 PM »
So yeah, in 2019, we had double the national average with major events. Wildfires sucked. But it's not like coal power would have made our wildfires better. It's the fault of our forest management, not our renewable energy.

   Those states interruptions are due to storms and having green trees.  Something that is no where near as common in Cali.  A power interruption from storms and brown outs from lack of juice are very, very different circumstances.[/quote]

oggsmash - As I said, the major event power outages in 2019 California were overwhelmingly from wildfires. Lack of juice is not considered a major event - so it gets counted in the non-major-event total. If you look at the data in the page below, that is the dark blue in the graph. As I said earlier, for California it is 2 hours per customer per year which is the same as the national average.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45796

Below are the graphs for 2017 and 2018, for reference. California is not listed in top five for those years. There is a source to download the complete data, but it's in Excel rather than easy-to-read graphs.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=35652
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=37652


We're at capacity for hydro. Wind and solar are already in place in the areas where it makes the most sense, and they're also useful in other circumstances where a small amount of power needs to be generated in an area where we'd have to extend the power grid (those solar panels on certain traffic lights, for instance). But otherwise, we should be switching to gas and nuclear instead of pretending that wind and solar are miracle energies, and pushing money into basic research on things like batteries and piezoelectric panels instead of subsidizing consumer end-products.

As I think you know, I fully support switching to nuclear - and I'll accept gas over coal. Still, while I agree that wind and solar are not miracle energies, they are nowhere near capacity in the U.S. For example, Arizona has less than 10% solar power, and I think that is far less than it's potential. It could easily have 30% or more solar given the environment. Much of Germany's solar investment was dumb, but there's a huge difference between Arizona and Germany in terms of solar efficiency.

And while hydropower is closer to capacity, it still has significant room to grow. A DOE report estimated that it could grow from 101 gigawatts (GW) of capacity in 2015 to nearly 150 GW by 2050.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/articles/hydropower-vision-new-chapter-america-s-1st-renewable-electricity-source

The main thing holding hydro back is misguided environmentalism. For example, California doesn't consider hydro power to be "renewable", and so is disfavoring hydro power as well as nuclear in its plans because of its legislated renewable mandate, and blocks any new hydro or nuclear plants.

More broadly, yes there are boondoggles from green energy companies - but oil and coal companies lie just as much as the green energy companies. They're all companies looking for a profit.

Pat
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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1089 on: May 28, 2021, 02:16:44 PM »
We're at capacity for hydro. Wind and solar are already in place in the areas where it makes the most sense, and they're also useful in other circumstances where a small amount of power needs to be generated in an area where we'd have to extend the power grid (those solar panels on certain traffic lights, for instance). But otherwise, we should be switching to gas and nuclear instead of pretending that wind and solar are miracle energies, and pushing money into basic research on things like batteries and piezoelectric panels instead of subsidizing consumer end-products.

As I think you know, I fully support switching to nuclear - and I'll accept gas over coal. Still, while I agree that wind and solar are not miracle energies, they are nowhere near capacity in the U.S. For example, Arizona has less than 10% solar power, and I think that is far less than it's potential. It could easily have 30% or more solar given the environment. Much of Germany's solar investment was dumb, but there's a huge difference between Arizona and Germany in terms of solar efficiency.

And while hydropower is closer to capacity, it still has significant room to grow. A DOE report estimated that it could grow from 101 gigawatts (GW) of capacity in 2015 to nearly 150 GW by 2050.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/articles/hydropower-vision-new-chapter-america-s-1st-renewable-electricity-source

The main thing holding hydro back is misguided environmentalism. For example, California doesn't consider hydro power to be "renewable", and so is disfavoring hydro power as well as nuclear in its plans because of its legislated renewable mandate, and blocks any new hydro or nuclear plants.

More broadly, yes there are boondoggles from green energy companies - but oil and coal companies lie just as much as the green energy companies. They're all companies looking for a profit.
At least read what you reply to. I said we're at capacity for hydro. That's literally the sentence I used. Not wind, not solar. Hydro.

The low hanging fruit from solar and wind have already been plucked. They're talking about doing things like building giant flotillas of windmills dozens of miles offshore, because they've run out of the best options. And that's not even addressing the issues with intermittency, transmission, lifecycle costs (old solar panels and wind turbines are expensive to get rid of), or even grid connections (the US grid is fairly old, would require a major refurbish to support it).

The report about the increase in hydro is interesting, but mostly irrelevant. Even assuming energy use doesn't grow (ha), hydro is only 6.6% of US's power, so it would still be under 10%. The real question is does it address all the environmental issues? The argument against damming every river is that it disrupts the ecology. They've created salmon ladders and the like, but is it enough?

And you're lying by selectively trying to change the topic by saying both green and non-green energy companies lie to support their bottom line. I wasn't talking about non-green companies, so that's whataboutism. And more than that, I wasn't even talking about companies. I was talking about government subsidies, and how the money is wasted on consumer products instead of basic research.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 02:18:50 PM by Pat »

oggsmash

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1090 on: May 28, 2021, 02:17:40 PM »
  Guys, Hyrdogen Fire.  Look into it.  Buddy of mine who has worked over 20 years in Nuclear Power is now at a hydrogen fire plant.  It is GREEN and it is very, very efficient. 

Shasarak

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1091 on: May 28, 2021, 05:22:42 PM »
As for brownouts, the average California service interruptions without major events is about 2 hours per customer per year, which is roughly the average in the U.S. If you include major events - which for us is mostly wildfires - then we have nearly 10 hours per year, which is high, but that doesn't reflect problems in power generation. For reference, Maine and West Virginia have higher interruption averages - while Michigan and Mississippi have similar.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45796

5 times more then the National average?  Thats bad.  Thats 395 million person hours of no power.

Did you click to see the chart? 2 hours is the national average without major events, 5 hours is the national average with major events. (This is for 2019.)

So yeah, in 2019, we had double the national average with major events. Wildfires sucked. But it's not like coal power would have made our wildfires better. It's the fault of our forest management, not our renewable energy.

EDITED TO ADD: In 2016, the largest service interruptions were South Carolina, North Carolina, West Virginia, and Maine. It varies year to year based on local problems.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=35652

Wildfires are entirely preventable though so I would not classify them as major events.

Especially for the worlds fifth biggest economy.

How much carbon did they release into the atmosphere?  Is California even taking climate change seriously?
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Mistwell

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1092 on: June 01, 2021, 09:14:18 PM »
How do you conclude that UndyingDM is burning up coal-produced energy? I don't see a location for him. I know that my home's power is 0% coal. The only coal plant in California is at the other end of the state in San Bernadino.

Lets pretend for a moment that you are indeed using electricity produced by 0% coal.

What about the device that you are using?  Your phone in your pocket?  The Solar Panels on your roof? 

They do not spring from the ground fully formed, they need to be forged and you can not use solar power to do that.

You're speaking as if the only two options for power are coal and solar power. A lot of forges currently use oil or natural gas rather than coal, and it's definitely possible to power them by other means - including solar power, as described in the article below.

Quote
Xcel Announces Deal to Power Steel Mill with Solar

Xcel Energy has announced an agreement with Lightsource BP and EVRAZ North America to develop a $250-million, 240-MW solar power facility in Pueblo, Colorado. The plant will provide power to the EVRAZ Rocky Mountain Steel facility in Pueblo. Xcel said the plant will be the largest on-site solar facility dedicated to a single company.

The Pueblo steel plant has long been powered by Xcel’s coal-fired Comanche Generating Station. The utility plans to close the two coal units at Comanche in 2022 and 2025, respectively, in each case at least 10 years ahead of schedule. The deal announced Sept. 27 for the solar plant has been discussed for months, and must still be approved by state regulators.
Source: https://www.powermag.com/xcel-announces-deal-to-power-steel-mill-with-solar/

See also https://ieefa.org/colorado-utility-to-power-steel-mill-with-new-solar-project/

I'm not touting solar as a panacea. Every power generation has its upsides and downsides, but that doesn't mean they are all equal. If you hold all of them to the same safety and environmental standards, coal is far worse than the others, and I think it should be phased out.

I accept that you do want to phase coal power generation out.  But unfortunately there is that second undecided step to your plan, what is going to fill the energy gap?

You say that California has 0% coal powered electricity production and at the same time also has rolling brownouts every summer.

Maybe you should check out Planet Of The Humans by Michael Moore which goes into the Green Energy scam a little more deeply.

You are, as always, completely full of shit. California had rolling blackouts in 2001 (because energy traders manipulated energy supply to drive up prices - which resulted in criminal convictions). Their next rolling blackout was 2020. NINETEEN YEARS between them. It lasted TWO HOURS TOTAL. And it was because of a record heat wave which caused everyone to blast their air conditioners all at once. It's not like coal power would have changed that equation - they are not going to let a plant sit for 19 years on the possibility demand will exceed supply once every other decade for a couple of hours.  They needed more battery capacity is the issue.

For comparison, the Texas blackouts were the largest planned blackouts in U.S. history. But somehow you're silent on that one.

Sometimes I think some conservative web sources tell tall tales about the boogeyman of California in the same way some Palestinian web sources tell tall tales about Jews in Israel eating Palestinian babies.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 09:20:48 PM by Mistwell »

Ghostmaker

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1093 on: June 01, 2021, 09:41:30 PM »
https://climatechangedispatch.com/what-really-led-to-californias-incessant-blackouts-a-timeline/

This is the result of 20 years of Democrat-driven fuckery, the Governator's term notwithstanding.

Mistwell

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #1094 on: June 01, 2021, 10:41:39 PM »
https://climatechangedispatch.com/what-really-led-to-californias-incessant-blackouts-a-timeline/

This is the result of 20 years of Democrat-driven fuckery, the Governator's term notwithstanding.

Hilarious. Your link refutes Shasarak's claim, "California experiences rolling blackouts due to insufficient electricity supplies for the first time since 2001." It even mentions the 2001 black was "market manipulation by suppliers and energy traders." Both exactly as I said. But according to Sharack, California has had this issue "every Summer." That's right, once every 19 years, for two hours, is "every Summer" folks.

Meanwhile, how many days was the Texas blackout?