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Author Topic: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021  (Read 117725 times)

Shasarak

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #210 on: January 11, 2021, 07:17:12 PM »
Do you also agree that I am right that it was from 2015, rejected four times, and is not sponsored by Cuomo or anyone in the State Senate?

You mean Assembly Bill A4162021-2022 Legislative Session dated January 6, 2021?

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pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

jhkim

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #211 on: January 11, 2021, 07:23:39 PM »
Do you also agree that I am right that it was from 2015, rejected four times, and is not sponsored by Cuomo or anyone in the State Senate?

You mean Assembly Bill A4162021-2022 Legislative Session dated January 6, 2021?

Yes. If you look down a little in the text for Bill A416 you will see:

Quote
Versions Introduced in Other Legislative Sessions:2015-2016: A6891
2017-2018: A680
2019-2020: A99
Source: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2021/a416

Each of those links to the previous versions. The bill is renumbered each time that it is re-introduced, but if you look at the previous versions, you will see the exact same language. The following is my cut-and-paste from the 2015 version of the bill. 

Quote
2.  UPON  DETERMINING BY CLEAR AND CONVINCING EVIDENCE THAT THE HEALTH
OF OTHERS IS OR MAY BE ENDANGERED BY A  CASE,  CONTACT  OR  CARRIER,  OR
SUSPECTED  CASE, CONTACT OR CARRIER OF A CONTAGIOUS DISEASE THAT, IN THE
OPINION OF THE GOVERNOR, AFTER CONSULTATION WITH THE  COMMISSIONER,  MAY
POSE  AN  IMMINENT AND SIGNIFICANT THREAT TO THE PUBLIC HEALTH RESULTING
IN SEVERE MORBIDITY OR HIGH MORTALITY, THE GOVERNOR OR HIS OR HER  DELE-
GEE,  INCLUDING,  BUT  NOT  LIMITED  TO THE COMMISSIONER OR THE HEADS OF
LOCAL HEALTH DEPARTMENTS, MAY ORDER THE REMOVAL AND/OR DETENTION OF SUCH
A PERSON OR OF A GROUP OF SUCH PERSONS BY ISSUING A SINGLE ORDER,  IDEN-
TIFYING  SUCH  PERSONS  EITHER  BY  NAME  OR  BY  A  REASONABLY SPECIFIC
DESCRIPTION OF THE INDIVIDUALS OR GROUP BEING DETAINED. SUCH  PERSON  OR
GROUP OF PERSONS SHALL BE DETAINED IN A MEDICAL FACILITY OR OTHER APPRO-
PRIATE  FACILITY  OR  PREMISES  DESIGNATED BY THE GOVERNOR OR HIS OR HER
DELEGEE AND COMPLYING WITH SUBDIVISION FIVE OF THIS SECTION.
Source: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2015/A6891

The Assembly member Nick Perry keeps re-introducing this bill, but it has failed to pass three times previously.

Shasarak

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #212 on: January 11, 2021, 07:31:47 PM »
The Assembly member Nick Perry keeps re-introducing this bill, but it has failed to pass three times previously.

So you are saying that they have been able to successfully fight the introduction of this kind of "camp" until now?

I hope there is no chance of some kind of global pandemic that gives an excuse for it to be passed this year.
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pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Shasarak

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #213 on: January 11, 2021, 07:34:03 PM »
I don't get how you read that from what I wrote. Terrorism is not OK in any case - and I am saying that violent BLM activities are wrong. Peaceful Trump demonstrations are good, and peaceful BLM demonstrations are good. If you think that there was a single BLM event that was worse than the Capitol storming, then specify it, and we can compare.

Which bit was the Terroism bit?

Was it when the Protestors were shot?

I think you're mixing up quotes here. moonsweeper was the one who brought up terrorism. I didn't make any claim about terrorism except to say that it is bad -- because moonsweeper accused me of saying that terrorism is OK.

I haven't made any claim about someone being a terrorist, and I feel like moonsweeper's bringing it up was a distraction - that apparently worked.

Did you disavow the statements made by Biden regarding terrorists or did you support them?



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There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

rawma

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #214 on: January 11, 2021, 08:00:50 PM »
Go ahead and look up the USC legal definition of 'terrorism' then get back to me.

Quote from: 18 U.S. Code § 2331 - Definitions
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States;

With regard to the Kavanaugh protests,
The crimes they were arrested and charged with were "crowding, obstruction, or incommoding" along with "unlawful conduct" and "disorderly conduct".
These don't sound like crimes "dangerous to human life". With respect to the infrequent violence at BLM protests, that does not seem systematic enough to fit (B) in the definition; otherwise any isolated criminal act dangerous to human life would be terrorism. The assassination of police officers would probably fit B(iii) but those appear to have been carried out by a few right-wingers. B(ii) and B(iii) seem to have been a major objective for many of the rioters on January 6th; disrupting the electoral vote count at least, and for some, capturing Pence, Pelosi or others to hold hostage or execute.

deadDMwalking

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #215 on: January 11, 2021, 08:06:17 PM »

Did you disavow the statements made by Biden regarding terrorists or did you support them?

You mean this one?

Quote from: Biden
No major party, no major party nominee in the history of this nation has ever known less or has been less prepared to deal with national security.  We cannot elect a man who exploits our fears of ISIS and other terrorists, who has no plan whatsoever to make us safer.

Or do you have another quote in mind? 

Personally, I think armed protesters storming the US Capitol combined with statements like the ones on this site about this being 'just the beginning' qualify as an attempt to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, so sure, I'm willing to agree that some of the protestors last week are terrorists.  Not CONVICTED terrorists, which I know matters to everyone here up until that person in Muslim or black. 
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker

jhkim

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #216 on: January 11, 2021, 08:08:38 PM »
I think you're mixing up quotes here. moonsweeper was the one who brought up terrorism. I didn't make any claim about terrorism except to say that it is bad -- because moonsweeper accused me of saying that terrorism is OK.

I haven't made any claim about someone being a terrorist, and I feel like moonsweeper's bringing it up was a distraction - that apparently worked.

Did you disavow the statements made by Biden regarding terrorists or did you support them?

I do not support them. In general, I find that terrorist is used as a generic buzzword for "bad person" far too much by both sides of the political spectrum. I think that particularly in casual usage, it is an over-hyped distinction. Under U.S. law, letting animals out of cages can be terrorism - while murdering dozens isn't necessarily terrorism. Particularly since it is so charged, I would prefer to discuss the morality of actions without using the label "terrorist" at all - instead judging it from other principles.

rawma

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #217 on: January 11, 2021, 08:12:31 PM »
No, being a traitor is when someone like Nancy Pelosi tries to take control of the US Nuclear weapons.

George Washington never sat around waiting to find out what the government wanted him to do.

By the Constitution,
Quote from: US Constitution
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Since George Washington was President of the United States, he was Commander in Chief; who we would he wait around to hear from? If no war were declared, he would probably have waited for Congress to declare war before conducting a war, since that was in the Constitution and he was fairly careful to set no unfortunate precedents, so the answer is, to some extent, yes, he would, and likely similarly for other situations where the executive branch should not act without legislation from the legislative branch. Earlier, he was Commander in Chief of the Continental Army. The President as Commander in Chief recognizes that wars cannot be fought under the command of a divided committee, while limiting the power of the executive in many ways (impeachment and later the 25th amendment being among them).

I'd say invading the Capitol Building, the seat of the Article I branch of the federal government, and injuring and even killing members of its police force, looks like levying war against the United States and thus treason. Nancy Pelosi asking the Joint Chiefs of Staff about something she probably knew the answer to looks like drumming up support for the stronger constitutional options, by undercutting the argument that the military would resist Trump's orders (almost certainly true for clearly illegal orders, almost certainly false for clearly legal orders).

Pat
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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #218 on: January 11, 2021, 08:15:39 PM »
Looks like they just banned Ron Paul from Facebook.
Looks like it's temporary, and it's not clear why. It's for unspecified violations of their community standards.

That could bite them in the ass. He's never had much political power, but he's been surprisingly influential and is widely respected.

SHARK

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #219 on: January 11, 2021, 08:17:34 PM »
And you've betrayed all of that to follow a pack of lying liars that endorse violence against Americans and attacks against America. Are you really so stupid? Oh well, at least you're all talk now, right?

You can not be a traitor for fighting American enemies both foreign and domestic.
The soldier doesn't designate enemies; that's for the government the soldier is serving to do. And that is why SHARK is a traitor.

Greetings!

I am not a traitor to anything. You are delusional.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Pat
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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #220 on: January 11, 2021, 08:17:52 PM »
1) Guam, Puerto Rico statehood. D.C. will not happen. But Guam and Puerto Rico? Definitely possible. All the RINO's have more incentive to go Democrat on everything because the Republican's have cut their own throat. If successful, this will lock up the Senate for generations.
Guam will never happen. 170,000 people vs. about 500,000 for the smallest House district. They'd need to triple the number of reps. Puerto Rico is more than large enough, but can the statehood movement overcome the independence movement, and is the US willing to accept a bankrupt state?

Pat
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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #221 on: January 11, 2021, 08:21:16 PM »
In general, I find that terrorist is used as a generic buzzword for "bad person" far too much by both sides of the political spectrum. I think that particularly in casual usage, it is an over-hyped distinction. Under U.S. law, letting animals out of cages can be terrorism - while murdering dozens isn't necessarily terrorism. Particularly since it is so charged, I would prefer to discuss the morality of actions without using the label "terrorist" at all - instead judging it from other principles.
Agreed. Terrorism, treason, and hate crimes are all being used too casually.

rawma

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #222 on: January 11, 2021, 08:37:32 PM »
An interview with Peter Meijer, who replaced Justin Amash in Congress:
Quote
And then one of the saddest things is I had colleagues who, when it came time to recognize reality and vote to certify Arizona and Pennsylvania in the Electoral College, they knew in their heart of hearts that they should've voted to certify, but some had legitimate concerns about the safety of their families. They felt that that vote would put their families in danger.

The delay of the electoral vote count was probably aimed at increasing or at least getting more time for the same intimidation of state legislators. Anybody but Trump probably would have recognized that it was going to blow up in his face, but per Ben Sasse, "As this was unfolding on television, Donald Trump was walking around the White House confused about why other people on his team weren’t as excited as he was.... He was delighted."

moonsweeper

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #223 on: January 11, 2021, 08:47:43 PM »
Go ahead and look up the USC legal definition of 'terrorism' then get back to me.

Quote from: 18 U.S. Code § 2331 - Definitions
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States;

With regard to the Kavanaugh protests,
The crimes they were arrested and charged with were "crowding, obstruction, or incommoding" along with "unlawful conduct" and "disorderly conduct".
These don't sound like crimes "dangerous to human life". With respect to the infrequent violence at BLM protests, that does not seem systematic enough to fit (B) in the definition; otherwise any isolated criminal act dangerous to human life would be terrorism. The assassination of police officers would probably fit B(iii) but those appear to have been carried out by a few right-wingers. B(ii) and B(iii) seem to have been a major objective for many of the rioters on January 6th; disrupting the electoral vote count at least, and for some, capturing Pence, Pelosi or others to hold hostage or execute.

That might matter if I had said anything about the Kavanaugh hearings...
(Here's a little secret: I didn't)

The discussion I was having was about the destruction/attacks committed during BLM/Antifa riots which fall under (i), (ii) and maybe (iii) and therefore mark the perpetrators as terrorists by legal definition.  Because people ought to know what words mean when they use them...especially people with doctorates.

You also fail on the second part, since I never defended the people who broke into the Capitol...

*pats rawma on the cheek*

It'll be ok.  You can try again next time.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 08:51:48 PM by moonsweeper »
"I have a very hard time taking seriously someone who has the time and resources to protest capitalism, while walking around in Nike shoes and drinking Starbucks, while filming it on their iPhone."  --  Alderaan Crumbs

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Shasarak

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #224 on: January 11, 2021, 08:49:56 PM »

Did you disavow the statements made by Biden regarding terrorists or did you support them?

You mean this one?

Quote from: Biden
No major party, no major party nominee in the history of this nation has ever known less or has been less prepared to deal with national security.  We cannot elect a man who exploits our fears of ISIS and other terrorists, who has no plan whatsoever to make us safer.

Or do you have another quote in mind? 

Personally, I think armed protesters storming the US Capitol combined with statements like the ones on this site about this being 'just the beginning' qualify as an attempt to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, so sure, I'm willing to agree that some of the protestors last week are terrorists.  Not CONVICTED terrorists, which I know matters to everyone here up until that person in Muslim or black.

"“These are a bunch of thugs, they’re terrorists, domestic terrorists and that will be a judgment for the justice department as to what the charges should be, but the fact is they should be prosecuted,” Biden said."

https://www.jpost.com/american-politics/biden-capitol-rioters-are-thugs-antisemites-who-should-be-prosecuted-654800
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus