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Author Topic: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021  (Read 117669 times)

Ratman_tf

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #120 on: January 09, 2021, 09:37:56 PM »
No one, including myself, is trying to convince anyone of anything here; we are just expressing ourselves because for some reason people like to do that in times of chaos and stress. But  if you don't like my posts, don't worry about it; I just came by  to see what the the alt-right segment of the gaming community - the only part of the right I regularly encounter - was saying in a place where they feel safe to fume and blather. It confirmed my impression that the cultural divorce between the right and everyone else is still well in effect, and good riddance.

The various slices of the Trumpism pie have a lot of details to natter on about during the coming days, including but reaching far beyond the stew of absurd ideas and beloved grievances they talk about here. But the main thing they will have to confront is that over a short few years they have basically nothing to show for, they have evolved from a powerful voting block into a group that's just walked into the political wilderness with no plan for getting back out. To one side is the abandonment of your weird belief system and re-integration with the part of society that likes things like the Constitution, democracy and fact-based decision making; to the other side is the descent from political minority to something like a Sunni factionalism to something like an ISIS self-governing gang of violent dipshits, to dead (the end point of anyone who refuses to leave this path). As  far as I am concerned, you can all choke on each other's dicks. But it will be interesting to watch what sorts of choices they all make.

When the "alt-right" is whoever you declare them to be, everyone you meet is "alt-right". You're just a delusion idiot blabbering incomprehensible nonsense at figments of your imagination that don't connect with anything that anyone is saying here and venting onto people you decided are evil monsters apparently based on your desire to frame people as such as a type of sick therapy of sorts, like yelling at random people on the internet makes you feel better. I don't even remember seeing you before last night (or maybe the night before that), yet somehow you have an accurate lock on WTF my actual believes are? Go visit a psych doctor and get medicated or something, or smoke some weed instead.
Seems to me there's no difference between what you posted and:
When the "Marxist" is whoever you declare them to be, everyone you meet is "Marxist". You're just a delusion idiot blabbering incomprehensible nonsense at figments of your imagination that don't connect with anything that anyone is saying here and venting onto people you decided are evil monsters apparently based on your desire to frame people as such as a type of sick therapy of sorts, like yelling at random people on the internet makes you feel better.
Kinda weird, no?

Yeah, specially since I've rarely ever even used the word "Marxist", specially not to declare everyone that indiscriminately.
Cool. Glad to hear that you'll be blasting at the bleating asswipes that are calling everyone they dislike Marxists. For the record, I don't tend to use labels like alt-right or Marxist either. I do call a lot of people assholes and similar names, but those don't fall along party lines.

You seem awfully eager to see the boards policed. Maybe Pundit should make you a mod.
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rawma

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #121 on: January 09, 2021, 10:54:59 PM »
Quote
Correct denominator.

Nope, it's not correct. You can't compare number of votes Trump received to the entire population, which includes those who are too young to vote, to determine the level of support. Just speaking from the point of view of applying mathematics to the real world.
Yes, it is correct. I'm talking about mandates, and how politicians claim they have a mandate when only a tiny sliver of the population voted for them. In that context, the entire population matters. It doesn't matter whether they're in prison or whether they're too young, because they're still part of the population being represented by the politician.

Are you just obstinately refusing to see any point of view other than your own, as usual?

You were talking about what percentage of the population Hillary considered deplorable, which was a statement about supporters rather than voters, and nothing about a mandate for Trump or Clinton. No reason to think there were no supporters of either candidate under the age of 18, or otherwise ineligible to vote, among the total population of the US.

If you want to talk about low voter turnout, lowering the percentages generally reported and making it impossible to ever reach 100% turnout because of all the people who are not eligible to vote seems to be exaggerating the problem. It's enough to say that the turnout among eligible voters is embarrassingly low without trying to distort the statistics. Why count non-citizens? Are you advocating that parents and guardians get an extra vote per child? Please, be forthcoming about what you're arguing for if you're not just being a curmudgeon who wants to exaggerate the problem of low voting rates.

Otherwise it's like counting the number of prostate exams but dividing by the entire population and then expressing great concern that a more inadequate rate of diagnostic examinations is being done, at about half the rate responsible public health experts are reporting.

Pat
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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #122 on: January 10, 2021, 01:23:36 AM »
You were talking about what percentage of the population Hillary considered deplorable...
No, I was not. I was addressing the concept of the mandate.

HappyDaze

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #123 on: January 10, 2021, 06:22:10 AM »
No one, including myself, is trying to convince anyone of anything here; we are just expressing ourselves because for some reason people like to do that in times of chaos and stress. But  if you don't like my posts, don't worry about it; I just came by  to see what the the alt-right segment of the gaming community - the only part of the right I regularly encounter - was saying in a place where they feel safe to fume and blather. It confirmed my impression that the cultural divorce between the right and everyone else is still well in effect, and good riddance.

The various slices of the Trumpism pie have a lot of details to natter on about during the coming days, including but reaching far beyond the stew of absurd ideas and beloved grievances they talk about here. But the main thing they will have to confront is that over a short few years they have basically nothing to show for, they have evolved from a powerful voting block into a group that's just walked into the political wilderness with no plan for getting back out. To one side is the abandonment of your weird belief system and re-integration with the part of society that likes things like the Constitution, democracy and fact-based decision making; to the other side is the descent from political minority to something like a Sunni factionalism to something like an ISIS self-governing gang of violent dipshits, to dead (the end point of anyone who refuses to leave this path). As  far as I am concerned, you can all choke on each other's dicks. But it will be interesting to watch what sorts of choices they all make.

When the "alt-right" is whoever you declare them to be, everyone you meet is "alt-right". You're just a delusion idiot blabbering incomprehensible nonsense at figments of your imagination that don't connect with anything that anyone is saying here and venting onto people you decided are evil monsters apparently based on your desire to frame people as such as a type of sick therapy of sorts, like yelling at random people on the internet makes you feel better. I don't even remember seeing you before last night (or maybe the night before that), yet somehow you have an accurate lock on WTF my actual believes are? Go visit a psych doctor and get medicated or something, or smoke some weed instead.
Seems to me there's no difference between what you posted and:
When the "Marxist" is whoever you declare them to be, everyone you meet is "Marxist". You're just a delusion idiot blabbering incomprehensible nonsense at figments of your imagination that don't connect with anything that anyone is saying here and venting onto people you decided are evil monsters apparently based on your desire to frame people as such as a type of sick therapy of sorts, like yelling at random people on the internet makes you feel better.
Kinda weird, no?

Yeah, specially since I've rarely ever even used the word "Marxist", specially not to declare everyone that indiscriminately.
Cool. Glad to hear that you'll be blasting at the bleating asswipes that are calling everyone they dislike Marxists. For the record, I don't tend to use labels like alt-right or Marxist either. I do call a lot of people assholes and similar names, but those don't fall along party lines.

You seem awfully eager to see the boards policed. Maybe Pundit should make you a mod.
I see you too use sarcastic black type. ;)

rawma

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2021, 11:26:19 AM »
You were talking about what percentage of the population Hillary considered deplorable...
No, I was not. I was addressing the concept of the mandate.

No, in the context of claiming to apply math but using the wrong denominator, you said:
No, it's a failure to understand how to correctly apply math to the real world. In 2016, 63 million voted for Trump, and the US population was 323 million. That's 19.5% of the population. Halve that for the targets of Hillary's hate speech.

You went on to extend the idea of this incorrect calculation to the concept of a mandate. Why should you expect a mandate to include people who can't vote? George Washington certainly had a mandate, with 100% of electors voting for him, but there was almost no popular vote.

But you haven't explained your position: if only 65% of the population can vote, and 40% actually vote and all voted for candidate X, that would be a turnout by the normal calculation of 61.5%, which is only exceeded by 2008 from 1968 to 2016. Would X have a mandate with 100% of the vote but only 40% of the population? Any candidate who wins has a mandate in one sense; the authority to govern in the office elected to.

Pat
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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2021, 11:37:15 AM »
You were talking about what percentage of the population Hillary considered deplorable...
No, I was not. I was addressing the concept of the mandate.

No, in the context of claiming to apply math but using the wrong denominator, you said:
No, it's a failure to understand how to correctly apply math to the real world. In 2016, 63 million voted for Trump, and the US population was 323 million. That's 19.5% of the population. Halve that for the targets of Hillary's hate speech.

You went on to extend the idea of this incorrect calculation to the concept of a mandate. Why should you expect a mandate to include people who can't vote? George Washington certainly had a mandate, with 100% of electors voting for him, but there was almost no popular vote.

But you haven't explained your position: if only 65% of the population can vote, and 40% actually vote and all voted for candidate X, that would be a turnout by the normal calculation of 61.5%, which is only exceeded by 2008 from 1968 to 2016. Would X have a mandate with 100% of the vote but only 40% of the population? Any candidate who wins has a mandate in one sense; the authority to govern in the office elected to.
What the fuck are you talking about? I'm not talking about the percentage of people who can vote. DeadDMwalking's post specifically said "population", not the "smaller percentage of the population who are allowed to vote". That's what I replied to, and I said "population" as well. I was referring to the total population, which should be from context, from the words I used, and in every other conceivable interpretation. And in the post you replied to, already I pointed out that I was mentioned the percentage of delorables just to clarify the percentage I was using was based on the full population, not the halved deplorables, and that I don't care about that. The entire focus and point of my post was to talk about the mandate, and how tiny a percentage of the population actually composes any "mandate". That's my position, which I clearly explained in my very first post, and my math is correct.

You really should practice listening to what people say, or at the very least listening to them when they tell you what they said, after you didn't bother to listen in the first place. Or listen to them the time after that, after they explain again what they said. Or when they explain it again. Heck, any one of those four times would work. You just have listen to them once.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 11:43:21 AM by Pat »

rawma

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2021, 12:53:06 PM »
0
What the fuck are you talking about? I'm not talking about the percentage of people who can vote. DeadDMwalking's post specifically said "population", not the "smaller percentage of the population who are allowed to vote".

But he also referenced the voters from Trump as if they were all the supporters of Trump. So you can claim incorrect numerator instead if you want.


Pat
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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #128 on: January 10, 2021, 04:11:27 PM »
0
What the fuck are you talking about? I'm not talking about the percentage of people who can vote. DeadDMwalking's post specifically said "population", not the "smaller percentage of the population who are allowed to vote".

But he also referenced the voters from Trump as if they were all the supporters of Trump. So you can claim incorrect numerator instead if you want.
Shame you didn't address the person who said that, not the person who was only interested in talking about the concept of a mandate.

rawma

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #129 on: January 10, 2021, 05:02:02 PM »
[But he also referenced the voters from Trump as if they were all the supporters of Trump. So you can claim incorrect numerator instead if you want.
Shame you didn't address the person who said that, not the person who was only interested in talking about the concept of a mandate.

His response was mathematically correct even if it did not address non-voters. You're welcome to talk about something else, no matter how lame the segue, but not using mathematical errors.

jhkim

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #130 on: January 10, 2021, 05:54:50 PM »
Following up on earlier comparison of the June 2020 BLM action at the White House, and the January 2021 at the Capitol...

"In june they stormed the white house...Black Lives Matter stromed the White House, they broke the barricades...no one was killed, no one was shot...we had a group of largely people of color storming the White House and none of them were murdered" - Michael Malice
...
It's all about framing, unexamined bias and people's short memory spans. I didn't even remember this. BLM actually stormed the White House and NO ONE called them "Insurgents" back then.
Source? As far as I saw, all of the June 2020 protests were *outside* the White House - and they were dispersed with tear gas and stun grenades from the area. Here's some video from the time:
...
EDITED TO ADD: I guess one could read "broke the barricades" to mean that they pushed past barricades on the street - but as far as I saw, no one got up to the White House building itself, let alone broke inside and looted the place.

There was still a breach and potential threat to the President, and no one was killed, and no one took it seriously, cuz Orange Man Bad.

You're using "stormed" and "breach" as if the two events were equivalent, but you're not denying the facts that I'm citing here. You claimed that the BLM protesters "stormed the White House" -- when they were all hundreds of feet away from the building. A "breach" which happens on the street hundreds of feet from the building is not at all equivalent to smashing in windows and doors to go in and loot the place.


More broadly, when comparing BLM protests to this the Capitol -- it's important to compare apples to apples. There's mass action that is supported by the crowd, and there's individual actions by fringe elements on their own. The Capitol storming was something that was broadly supported. A large minority of Republicans are supportive not just of Trump protests in general, but of storming the Capitol in particular. We saw that here in this forum, as posters like SHARK cheered as the Capitol was stormed.

I think the closest equivalent to storming the DC Capitol would be the Seattle riots that overran the Capitol Hill police station. (And the names make it an appropriate parallel.) But that was vastly smaller scale than the DC Capitol.

Shasarak

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #131 on: January 10, 2021, 06:25:05 PM »
More broadly, when comparing BLM protests to this the Capitol -- it's important to compare apples to apples. There's mass action that is supported by the crowd, and there's individual actions by fringe elements on their own. The Capitol storming was something that was broadly supported. A large minority of Republicans are supportive not just of Trump protests in general, but of storming the Capitol in particular. We saw that here in this forum, as posters like SHARK cheered as the Capitol was stormed.

I think the closest equivalent to storming the DC Capitol would be the Seattle riots that overran the Capitol Hill police station. (And the names make it an appropriate parallel.) But that was vastly smaller scale than the DC Capitol.

If you want to compare storming of the Capitol then we all remember the Kavanaugh hearing where over 300 protestors were arrested:



Elizabeth Warren stirring up the demonstrators:



More Kavanaugh Protestors:

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Pat
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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #132 on: January 10, 2021, 07:13:12 PM »
[But he also referenced the voters from Trump as if they were all the supporters of Trump. So you can claim incorrect numerator instead if you want.
Shame you didn't address the person who said that, not the person who was only interested in talking about the concept of a mandate.

His response was mathematically correct even if it did not address non-voters. You're welcome to talk about something else, no matter how lame the segue, but not using mathematical errors.
I never said the math was wrong, I said it was applied incorrectly. Completely different things. Have you lost track of the discussion?

rawma

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #133 on: January 10, 2021, 07:17:50 PM »
More broadly, when comparing BLM protests to this the Capitol -- it's important to compare apples to apples. There's mass action that is supported by the crowd, and there's individual actions by fringe elements on their own. The Capitol storming was something that was broadly supported. A large minority of Republicans are supportive not just of Trump protests in general, but of storming the Capitol in particular. We saw that here in this forum, as posters like SHARK cheered as the Capitol was stormed.

I think the closest equivalent to storming the DC Capitol would be the Seattle riots that overran the Capitol Hill police station. (And the names make it an appropriate parallel.) But that was vastly smaller scale than the DC Capitol.

If you want to compare storming of the Capitol then we all remember the Kavanaugh hearing where over 300 protestors were arrested:
Quote
Elizabeth Warren stirring up the demonstrators:
Quote
More Kavanaugh Protestors:

There must have been many Capitol Police killed and injured, since it's comparable. How long did the Senators have to shelter in secure bunkers?

rawma

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Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2021, 07:22:50 PM »
I never said the math was wrong, I said it was applied incorrectly. Completely different things. Have you lost track of the discussion?

I never said you said his math was wrong; I was explaining that I corrected the person whose math was wrong.