This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021  (Read 117848 times)

Shasarak

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4032
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #870 on: March 07, 2021, 06:48:05 PM »
Don't go passing out fake 20's while high on fentanyl.  You might become a saint.
Only if you're the right skin tone.

Yeah, I went there. Fight me.

Fight Fight Fight
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

HappyDaze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • H
  • Posts: 5337
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #871 on: March 07, 2021, 06:54:34 PM »
Don't go passing out fake 20's while high on fentanyl.  You might become a saint.
Only if you're the right skin tone.

Yeah, I went there. Fight me.

Yawn...


Mistwell

  • Smarter than Arduin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5289
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #872 on: March 08, 2021, 11:27:57 AM »
If you're buying something that costs $20 and you hand me $60 in 20s and at least $20 of them is real, then yes, that's all that matters.
You would still be legally obliged to report him for trying to pass counterfeit bills, and the police would still be obliged to investigate.

Yes.

Of course, it's still not germane to whether or not he paid enough real money to buy the thing he was buying. It might also be an issue he needs to go to prison for having counterfeit money. Or to bring it back to the topic - we should still investigate and prosecute election fraud and take steps to see it never happens again. But, that still doesn't help the "Trump won" argument if he didn't in fact win. And the bulk of this thread is about "Trump won."

oggsmash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4009
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #873 on: March 08, 2021, 12:10:36 PM »
If you're buying something that costs $20 and you hand me $60 in 20s and at least $20 of them is real, then yes, that's all that matters.
You would still be legally obliged to report him for trying to pass counterfeit bills, and the police would still be obliged to investigate.

Yes.

Of course, it's still not germane to whether or not he paid enough real money to buy the thing he was buying. It might also be an issue he needs to go to prison for having counterfeit money. Or to bring it back to the topic - we should still investigate and prosecute election fraud and take steps to see it never happens again. But, that still doesn't help the "Trump won" argument if he didn't in fact win. And the bulk of this thread is about "Trump won."
  I do not know what happened, and neither do you, as you, though you may not like it, are a pleb just like me.  I DO know that several states violated their own constitutions and did everything they could to make IDs, signature verifications or anything that could reasonably question a mailed in ballot something you just can not do in a meaningful way.   I also know that there is no justification for mass mail in voting.  If you as  a citizen can not take the time to go to a poll, you should not be able to vote.  If you have real, documented health concerns you can go through all the steps to get a legit absentee ballot.  Doing an end around will make the nation ungovernable, regardless of if trump was cheated or not, because everything is perception and degree.  If enough people think something foul went on, it becomes reality to them, and at this point the numbers of people who think something dirty took place are huge. 

   It will cause problems down the line.  If you have kids, you have got to be concerned with how that affects them, one way or the other.  If you dont have kids, I guess you can YOLO and keep whistling down the road of global empire you seem to be on. 

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11749
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #874 on: March 08, 2021, 05:06:01 PM »
As someone who voted for None of the Above, I think the only question that mattered is that the allegations of impropriety (fraud is an irrelevant smokescreen) were taken seriously by both parties, thoroughly investigated, people were punished for misbehavior, and any problems were addressed to ensure they won't happen in the next election. In other words, I care about the integrity of the system, fairness, transparency, and the public's trust.

Unfortunately....

You say "fraud is an irrelevant smokescreen" but fraud is explicitly what the former president and his supporters are claiming - loudly and repeatedly. If you think it's a smokescreen, then the blame for that smokescreen is clearly on Trump and his supporters.

Since long before 2020, I have been a supporter of a number of election reforms. I would love for both sides to approach these issues in a rational, non-partisan, and unbiased way. In order to get to that point, though, I think we need to clear away the smokescreen.


So in your analogy, you are demonstrating the need for an independent electoral commission in the US along the lines of the AEC.

As a comparison, in a recent federal election, the AEC in Western Australia lost some 1,700 Senate votes - so the High Court sitting as the court of disputed returns, ordered them to hold the entire Senate election again. The numbers lost weren't enough to substantially change the result of the election, but it's considered that it's not enough that the process be honest, it must be seen to be honest. The process must be above reproach and beyond reasonable doubt.

As I said in the previous election thread, I'd be all for an independent electoral commission. As far as I can tell, though, that's not going to get at the problem -- because I guarantee that if we had an AEC that said that Biden won, Trump's supporters would have dismissed the AEC conclusions as being part of the conspiracy, in exactly the same way that they dismissed the responses from Republican state officials.

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8331
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #875 on: March 08, 2021, 05:34:30 PM »
As I said in the previous election thread, I'd be all for an independent electoral commission. As far as I can tell, though, that's not going to get at the problem -- because I guarantee that if we had an AEC that said that Biden won, Trump's supporters would have dismissed the AEC conclusions as being part of the conspiracy, in exactly the same way that they dismissed the responses from Republican state officials.

Both sides are heavily invested in the smokescreen. Any oversight group is going to have to battle uphill to demonstrate their non-partisan stance.
We keep hearing from the major media outlets that they are the bastion of non-partisan reporting, while blatantly lying and fabricating "news" in favor of one party.
The American Civil Liberties Union have gone full racist in order to be anti-racist, and have come out against individual rights concerning speech and expression.
So I guess I agree, with the caveat that there is good reason to be suspicious of any claims at independant oversight.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #876 on: March 08, 2021, 05:54:53 PM »
As someone who voted for None of the Above, I think the only question that mattered is that the allegations of impropriety (fraud is an irrelevant smokescreen) were taken seriously by both parties, thoroughly investigated, people were punished for misbehavior, and any problems were addressed to ensure they won't happen in the next election. In other words, I care about the integrity of the system, fairness, transparency, and the public's trust.

Unfortunately....

You say "fraud is an irrelevant smokescreen" but fraud is explicitly what the former president and his supporters are claiming - loudly and repeatedly. If you think it's a smokescreen, then the blame for that smokescreen is clearly on Trump and his supporters.

Since long before 2020, I have been a supporter of a number of election reforms. I would love for both sides to approach these issues in a rational, non-partisan, and unbiased way. In order to get to that point, though, I think we need to clear away the smokescreen.

Fraud is an irrelevant smokescreen.


I don't care what Trump said. I'm not a Trump supporter. In the same post you just quoted, I explicitly pointed out that I didn't vote him. Yet your response is Trump Trump TRUMP. That's a smokescreen, too. You claim to want to talk about it rationally, but given the chance you immediately try to divert the topic back into the peasoup partisan fog of fraud.

Fraud isn't the issue. You're clearly a diehard Trump fanatic, but did you pay any attention to suits filed by his legal team? None of them alleged fraud, and quite properly so. Fraud takes a long time to prosecute, only targets specific individuals, and since it only targets specific individuals it requires a very high burden of proof. It's a way to punish people who did wrong, and putting a few figurative heads on pikes outside the local election office is important for discouraging potential malefactors, but it's not the way to flip an election (don't care), and (do care) is a very minor aspect of election integrity.

Impropriety like unequal treatment, or a failure to obey their laws, or changing the rules without proper authorization, or failing to allow proper supervision, or what's implied by all the statistical anomalies, and on and on are much more widespread, easier to demonstrate, easier to prove, and, since they're more abstract and clinical and aren't attacking individuals, they at least theoretically should be less likely to rouse anyone to a high dudgeon and thus should be easier to address in the public sphere. (In a less insanely polarized and omnipresently politicized world, at least). These need to be taken seriously, fully addressed, and then redressed before the next election comes along. Clarence Thomas laid out the reasoning for this quite well, in his recent dissenting opinion where he uncharacteristically called out his fellow robed autocrats for dereliction of duty.

oggsmash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4009
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #877 on: March 08, 2021, 06:18:06 PM »
As someone who voted for None of the Above, I think the only question that mattered is that the allegations of impropriety (fraud is an irrelevant smokescreen) were taken seriously by both parties, thoroughly investigated, people were punished for misbehavior, and any problems were addressed to ensure they won't happen in the next election. In other words, I care about the integrity of the system, fairness, transparency, and the public's trust.

Unfortunately....

You say "fraud is an irrelevant smokescreen" but fraud is explicitly what the former president and his supporters are claiming - loudly and repeatedly. If you think it's a smokescreen, then the blame for that smokescreen is clearly on Trump and his supporters.

Since long before 2020, I have been a supporter of a number of election reforms. I would love for both sides to approach these issues in a rational, non-partisan, and unbiased way. In order to get to that point, though, I think we need to clear away the smokescreen.


So in your analogy, you are demonstrating the need for an independent electoral commission in the US along the lines of the AEC.

As a comparison, in a recent federal election, the AEC in Western Australia lost some 1,700 Senate votes - so the High Court sitting as the court of disputed returns, ordered them to hold the entire Senate election again. The numbers lost weren't enough to substantially change the result of the election, but it's considered that it's not enough that the process be honest, it must be seen to be honest. The process must be above reproach and beyond reasonable doubt.

As I said in the previous election thread, I'd be all for an independent electoral commission. As far as I can tell, though, that's not going to get at the problem -- because I guarantee that if we had an AEC that said that Biden won, Trump's supporters would have dismissed the AEC conclusions as being part of the conspiracy, in exactly the same way that they dismissed the responses from Republican state officials.

  Yep, just like the press, democrats, and many democrat voters have harped for over 4 years that Russia got Trump elected.   So it sort of looks like a thing that Trump didnt start, or his followers, just simply circling back to what the Press and democrats started.

Mistwell

  • Smarter than Arduin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5289
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #878 on: March 08, 2021, 11:04:44 PM »
If you're buying something that costs $20 and you hand me $60 in 20s and at least $20 of them is real, then yes, that's all that matters.
You would still be legally obliged to report him for trying to pass counterfeit bills, and the police would still be obliged to investigate.

Yes.

Of course, it's still not germane to whether or not he paid enough real money to buy the thing he was buying. It might also be an issue he needs to go to prison for having counterfeit money. Or to bring it back to the topic - we should still investigate and prosecute election fraud and take steps to see it never happens again. But, that still doesn't help the "Trump won" argument if he didn't in fact win. And the bulk of this thread is about "Trump won."
  I do not know what happened, and neither do you, as you, though you may not like it, are a pleb just like me.  I DO know that several states violated their own constitutions and did everything they could to make IDs, signature verifications or anything that could reasonably question a mailed in ballot something you just can not do in a meaningful way.   I also know that there is no justification for mass mail in voting.  If you as  a citizen can not take the time to go to a poll, you should not be able to vote.  If you have real, documented health concerns you can go through all the steps to get a legit absentee ballot.  Doing an end around will make the nation ungovernable, regardless of if trump was cheated or not, because everything is perception and degree.  If enough people think something foul went on, it becomes reality to them, and at this point the numbers of people who think something dirty took place are huge. 

   It will cause problems down the line.  If you have kids, you have got to be concerned with how that affects them, one way or the other.  If you dont have kids, I guess you can YOLO and keep whistling down the road of global empire you seem to be on.

No, all of that is complete hogwash. No state constitutions were violated - that was accusations by amateur non-lawyers pretending to be lawyers. NOT ONE of those accusations turned out ot be accurate. In most cases, the state legislature had given the Governor emergency authority to take actions which included the power to change the election in that manner. Which you can dislike, and you can hold your breath until you turn blue in protest or whatever, but it's totally legal under State Constitutions for legislatures to grant broad emergency powers like they did, and it's totally legal for Governors to use that broad emergency power like they did. And your "I read it on the Internet so it must be true" authoritative expertise notwithstanding, that's not a violation of a state's constitution at all.

Furthermore, it's a completely unethical and shitty argument from shitty human beings to claim citizens who otherwise have the right to vote shouldn't have their votes counted because they didn't physically go to a polling station. NOTHING about in-person voting is an indication of righteousness or knowledge or wisdom or anything about democracy which would lead one to conclude that sort of voting is superior in any way to mail-in voting for a democracy. It's just assholes trying to game the system to "win" by claiming those votes are somehow less legit or valuable than in-person votes. Nor does it help the "trump won" cause in any way to claim he lost because more people voted for the other guy due to easier methods of voting. Fuck dude, if you want your guy to win, persuade more people to vote for you rather than the other guy, no matter what method they use to vote. Don't be a pussy and whine you're not up to that challenge.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 11:11:18 PM by Mistwell »

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11749
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #879 on: March 09, 2021, 01:09:33 AM »
I also know that there is no justification for mass mail in voting.  If you as  a citizen can not take the time to go to a poll, you should not be able to vote.  If you have real, documented health concerns you can go through all the steps to get a legit absentee ballot.  Doing an end around will make the nation ungovernable, regardless of if trump was cheated or not, because everything is perception and degree.  If enough people think something foul went on, it becomes reality to them, and at this point the numbers of people who think something dirty took place are huge. 

It will cause problems down the line.  If you have kids, you have got to be concerned with how that affects them, one way or the other.  If you dont have kids, I guess you can YOLO and keep whistling down the road of global empire you seem to be on.

Empirically, I don't agree that this is the case. Switzerland has been using all all-postal voting for years, and it doesn't seem to have affected them. Within the U.S., Utah has also been using all-postal voting, and it doesn't seem to have been causing problems. There are some additional vulnerabilities, but they can be addressed by increased enforcement and security technologies - possibly like the USPS blockchain-based patent. Greater security measures are a good idea regardless of mail-in or not.

I'm not even particularly attached to postal voting. In years other than 2020, postal voting is mostly a wash - rarely favoring either Democrats or Republicans. The reason for the shift in 2020 is covid-19, which won't be a factor in later elections. Democrats traditionally have a slight advantage in early in-person voting, and Republicans a slight advantage on Election Day in-person voting.

I've been voting by mail personally because it's more convenient. It helps me get involved especially in local races, because it feels easier to take my time to review stuff like school boards that I really have to research. I do think that we should either require early voting as an option, change voting to a Sunday, or make Election Day a national holiday. I think it's pretty obviously flawed to have people have to work a full day and then get to the polls.

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9487
  • high-minded hack
    • The Viking Hat GM
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #880 on: March 09, 2021, 05:32:00 AM »
As far as I can tell, though, that's not going to get at the problem -- because I guarantee that if we had an AEC that said that Biden won, Trump's supporters would have dismissed the AEC conclusions as being part of the conspiracy
Nah. Because the commission would take care of all elections - sheriffs, local, state, everything. Over time they build up their credibility. Properly-constituted, it would not have Reps or Dems, but a bunch of officials who really don't give a shit.

But it'll never happen, because there is bipartisan support for politicising everything, even judge's jobs.

New lunatic idea making its way across the internet.

Trump runs for Congress in 2022. Reps take over the House. Trump becomes Speaker. His first act is to impeach Biden and Harris. The Senate removes them both. He serves as President for the remainder of Biden's term and can still run again in 2024.

That's so stupid I like it.
The Viking Hat GM
Conflict, the adventure game of modern warfare
Wastrel Wednesdays, livestream with Dungeondelver

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8331
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #881 on: March 09, 2021, 07:48:58 AM »
The reason for the shift in 2020 is covid-19, which won't be a factor in later elections.

I would not bet money on that.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Ghostmaker

  • Chlorine trifluoride
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4013
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #882 on: March 09, 2021, 10:51:56 AM »
https://notthebee.com/article/the-pro-life-evangelicals-for-biden-say-they-feel-betrayed-by-his-radical-abortion-platform

*howls of derisive laughter*

Congrats, NeverTrumpers. You helped put a drooling halfwit controlled by radleft flunkies in the White House, and they're doing their damnedest to make sure they never lose power again.

But hey, no more mean tweets!

oggsmash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4009
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #883 on: March 09, 2021, 12:05:46 PM »
If you're buying something that costs $20 and you hand me $60 in 20s and at least $20 of them is real, then yes, that's all that matters.
You would still be legally obliged to report him for trying to pass counterfeit bills, and the police would still be obliged to investigate.

Yes.

Of course, it's still not germane to whether or not he paid enough real money to buy the thing he was buying. It might also be an issue he needs to go to prison for having counterfeit money. Or to bring it back to the topic - we should still investigate and prosecute election fraud and take steps to see it never happens again. But, that still doesn't help the "Trump won" argument if he didn't in fact win. And the bulk of this thread is about "Trump won."
  I do not know what happened, and neither do you, as you, though you may not like it, are a pleb just like me.  I DO know that several states violated their own constitutions and did everything they could to make IDs, signature verifications or anything that could reasonably question a mailed in ballot something you just can not do in a meaningful way.   I also know that there is no justification for mass mail in voting.  If you as  a citizen can not take the time to go to a poll, you should not be able to vote.  If you have real, documented health concerns you can go through all the steps to get a legit absentee ballot.  Doing an end around will make the nation ungovernable, regardless of if trump was cheated or not, because everything is perception and degree.  If enough people think something foul went on, it becomes reality to them, and at this point the numbers of people who think something dirty took place are huge. 

   It will cause problems down the line.  If you have kids, you have got to be concerned with how that affects them, one way or the other.  If you dont have kids, I guess you can YOLO and keep whistling down the road of global empire you seem to be on.

No, all of that is complete hogwash. No state constitutions were violated - that was accusations by amateur non-lawyers pretending to be lawyers. NOT ONE of those accusations turned out ot be accurate. In most cases, the state legislature had given the Governor emergency authority to take actions which included the power to change the election in that manner. Which you can dislike, and you can hold your breath until you turn blue in protest or whatever, but it's totally legal under State Constitutions for legislatures to grant broad emergency powers like they did, and it's totally legal for Governors to use that broad emergency power like they did. And your "I read it on the Internet so it must be true" authoritative expertise notwithstanding, that's not a violation of a state's constitution at all.

Furthermore, it's a completely unethical and shitty argument from shitty human beings to claim citizens who otherwise have the right to vote shouldn't have their votes counted because they didn't physically go to a polling station. NOTHING about in-person voting is an indication of righteousness or knowledge or wisdom or anything about democracy which would lead one to conclude that sort of voting is superior in any way to mail-in voting for a democracy. It's just assholes trying to game the system to "win" by claiming those votes are somehow less legit or valuable than in-person votes. Nor does it help the "trump won" cause in any way to claim he lost because more people voted for the other guy due to easier methods of voting. Fuck dude, if you want your guy to win, persuade more people to vote for you rather than the other guy, no matter what method they use to vote. Don't be a pussy and whine you're not up to that challenge.

  Call me a pussy if you like, but I do feel that something that has value should have a level of responsibility attached to it.  Taking the time and effort to take part in something that so many feel is so important is not unethical.   I didnt have a guy who could win, all I had were different ways to lose.    in person voting is something that is harder to fake, and does put more responsibility onto the citizen.   It is superior, period.  You talk of gaming a system where there are places where people still harvest ballots.  I would also request we speak as if we were face to face, as tossing insults about is very, very easy to do on the internet, and not something sensible people would do should there be a consequence of escalating emotions.

oggsmash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4009
Re: LIVE COVERAGE of Rally for President Trump in DC! 01/06/2021
« Reply #884 on: March 09, 2021, 12:15:57 PM »
I also know that there is no justification for mass mail in voting.  If you as  a citizen can not take the time to go to a poll, you should not be able to vote.  If you have real, documented health concerns you can go through all the steps to get a legit absentee ballot.  Doing an end around will make the nation ungovernable, regardless of if trump was cheated or not, because everything is perception and degree.  If enough people think something foul went on, it becomes reality to them, and at this point the numbers of people who think something dirty took place are huge. 

It will cause problems down the line.  If you have kids, you have got to be concerned with how that affects them, one way or the other.  If you dont have kids, I guess you can YOLO and keep whistling down the road of global empire you seem to be on.

Empirically, I don't agree that this is the case. Switzerland has been using all all-postal voting for years, and it doesn't seem to have affected them. Within the U.S., Utah has also been using all-postal voting, and it doesn't seem to have been causing problems. There are some additional vulnerabilities, but they can be addressed by increased enforcement and security technologies - possibly like the USPS blockchain-based patent. Greater security measures are a good idea regardless of mail-in or not.

I'm not even particularly attached to postal voting. In years other than 2020, postal voting is mostly a wash - rarely favoring either Democrats or Republicans. The reason for the shift in 2020 is covid-19, which won't be a factor in later elections. Democrats traditionally have a slight advantage in early in-person voting, and Republicans a slight advantage on Election Day in-person voting.

I've been voting by mail personally because it's more convenient. It helps me get involved especially in local races, because it feels easier to take my time to review stuff like school boards that I really have to research. I do think that we should either require early voting as an option, change voting to a Sunday, or make Election Day a national holiday. I think it's pretty obviously flawed to have people have to work a full day and then get to the polls.

  So because a very homogenous and tiny (by comparison) nation, and a very small and homogenous (by comparison) state have no problems with mail in voting all is fine?  I think not.  I think people in other places tend to have more difference of opinion/worldview/etc and that is why places have laws,  because reality is some people with enough conflicting opinions cheat.  If everything places like Switzaland, Norway, etc did were scalable, everyone would do them.  But populations and differences and natural resources, etc make a difference.   I could not say that mail in voting could not be carried with zero problems, I can say they way it is handled in the USA looks like a fucking shit show.