Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel

[oggsmash]

  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Probably the same sort of "ethno state" as Australia or Japan. But the latter is okay because, I dunno, reasons?

  I was not aware Australia has codified laws to specifically control the demographics of their population. 

[Brad]

  I was not aware Australia has codified laws to specifically control the demographics of their population.

Try to emigrate there and tell me what happens.

[oggsmash]

  I was not aware Australia has codified laws to specifically control the demographics of their population.

Try to emigrate there and tell me what happens.

  Well, to be honest it never even made the top 10 of the places I plan to relocate to.  Good to know they are an ethno state I guess.

[GeekyBugle]

  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Such ethnostate
much wow

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546

I'll also note there are Jews living in Israel from other different ethnicities, like from Russia, Turkey, etc.

Not to mention the Muslims and Christians that enjoy ciizenship and full rights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel

So it's not even a teocracy

Care to try again?

[GeekyBugle]

  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Probably the same sort of "ethno state" as Australia or Japan. But the latter is okay because, I dunno, reasons?

Such ethnostate
much wow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Immigration_and_country_of_birth

Care to try again?

[GeekyBugle]

  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Probably the same sort of "ethno state" as Australia or Japan. But the latter is okay because, I dunno, reasons?

  I was not aware Australia has codified laws to specifically control the demographics of their population.

That's because they don't.

[Brad]

Such ethnostate
much wow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Immigration_and_country_of_birth

Care to try again?

Pretty sure most of them aren't actual Australian citizens.

[oggsmash]

  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Such ethnostate
much wow

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546

I'll also note there are Jews living in Israel from other different ethnicities, like from Russia, Turkey, etc.

Not to mention the Muslims and Christians that enjoy ciizenship and full rights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel

So it's not even a teocracy

Care to try again?

  https://lawoffice.org.il/en/obtaining-citizenship-in-israel/

  Then maybe you will want to explain it to the law firm here that handles immigration to Israel.    Which hell I do not know, if we are splitting hairs over words here?  There is most definitely an extreme bias to a specific faith and ethnicity, if the right to return can be passed down from a parent, with no need for the child to prove they follow a faith...is that not ethnic?  You also make a statement as if Muslims or christians make up a large percentage of citizens.  Muslims make up a sizable percentage of permanent residents, and can vote in local elections, NOT national or parliamentary elections.  Your link gives no hard numbers as to how many actual citizens are among the muslim population, and even goes on to clarify MANY of the arab residents are permenant residents and not citizens.  I miss hard numbers in that link, I do see the word many used twice, once to say many of the Arab residents are citizens, and then again later to say many of the Arab residents are not citizens....     Or if the standards to achieve citizenship are anywhere near the same, especially for an immigrant.   What percentage of Muslim immigrants with no family that has ever lived in Israel are able to become citizens?

[oggsmash]

   I guess my question is this, can all these things be true:

  1.  That Israel is not in any way a state of inclusive and welcoming immigration or paths to citizenship (no idea if ethnostate is the right word here, but your parents who have never set foot in Israel can give you the right to immigrate there and be a citizen despite you never setting foot in Temple your entire life).  While at the same time having strict immigration with regard to non Jewish immigrants, walls, borders and policed checkpoints as to who can enter the nation.  Call it what you like.

  2.  Israel acts and reacts in as moderated a method as is possible given the circumstances.  They know they live with an existential threat, but they do not simply destroy everyone.  They react as measured as possible.

   3.  Hamas is a terror organization, they historically do things we would call black and white evil.  If they get eradicated the world is likely better off. 

   4.  Israel is more in the "right" in this dispute and has full rights to defend lives and remove threats.
   
   5.  I have no dog in the fight, I feel Israel is right, but I offer zero aid, do not want any money from country going there, and certainly do not want to hear every politician harping propaganda to get public sentiment behind sending my son over there down the road.  No thank you. 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Israel is more or less an "Ethno-State". That's right, since the ancient times of the Patriarch Abraham.

So what? Israel, like any other nation state, can organize itself as IT SEES FIT. It doesn't need a trainload of pussies approval.

Japan, also, is more or less an "Ethno-State". Good for them. You aren't Jewish, or Japanese, you don't have the same kind of rights there as Jewish or Japanese people do. Again, too fucking bad. Nation states have a right to organize themselves as they see fit.

Probably most of the world are ethno states. Nothing unusual about that at all. Most people from group A prefer living with people from group A, and don't like being invaded and fucked with by people from other groups. It's that simple. Lots of countries in Africa are largely ethno states, too. Step out of line there, bitch and scream that you don't like the way they do things in Songhay and see what the fuck happens to you. That's because those folks have their own culture, THEIR way of doing shit. YOU don't have a right to go there and criticize, or complain, or demand they change their fucking culture. They have a right to keep their culture and maintain their own ways of doing things. Fuck what the pussy cuck foreigners want.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[jhkim]

Hamas are terrorists and acting like Terrorists.

Israel wants ALL of the rocket atracks to stop and they are just defending themselves.

There is no 'occupation' related to the so-called 'Palestinians'. The land is Israel and has been and always will be Israel. Every time they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries they tended to gain territory that was oroginally supposed to be their's in the first place.
"Palestinian" since the 1960s is more of a political designation and not really a 'nation' or ethnic group.

This makes me wonder if we're disagreeing about some basic facts here.

When I refer to Palestinians and Palestine, I have meant the ~5 million inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza, not including Israeli settlers in the West Bank. At present, they are citizens of no country. They have been living on the same land for many generations, since before 1947. In the original 1947 U.N. Partition Plan, the West Bank and Gaza were supposed to be an independent country from Israel. However, that land has been claimed by Israeli since it was seized in the 1967 war.

At present, Palestine is not a sovereign country in that the Israeli military controls all its borders, including internal borders within the West Bank that divide it into six regions. Since 1995, Palestinians can have passports issued by the local government (the Palestinian Authority) - but Israel can override those passports, and they can only leave or travel between regions with Israeli permission. The Israelis do not permit airports within Palestine, and there is a naval blockade that stops all boats from leaving or entering Gaza, and all land crossings have Israeli military checkpoints.

There are roughly two ways to view this:

(1) That land is Israel, and thus the Palestinians are Israelis with no citizenship or rights.

(2) That land is Palestine, and Israel has been militarily occupying it.

[KingCheops]

   I guess my question is this, can all these things be true:

  1.  That Israel is not in any way a state of inclusive and welcoming immigration or paths to citizenship (no idea if ethnostate is the right word here, but your parents who have never set foot in Israel can give you the right to immigrate there and be a citizen despite you never setting foot in Temple your entire life).  While at the same time having strict immigration with regard to non Jewish immigrants, walls, borders and policed checkpoints as to who can enter the nation.  Call it what you like.

  2.  Israel acts and reacts in as moderated a method as is possible given the circumstances.  They know they live with an existential threat, but they do not simply destroy everyone.  They react as measured as possible.

   3.  Hamas is a terror organization, they historically do things we would call black and white evil.  If they get eradicated the world is likely better off. 

   4.  Israel is more in the "right" in this dispute and has full rights to defend lives and remove threats.
   
   5.  I have no dog in the fight, I feel Israel is right, but I offer zero aid, do not want any money from country going there, and certainly do not want to hear every politician harping propaganda to get public sentiment behind sending my son over there down the road.  No thank you.

A nuanced take?  WTF, get out of here!   

But yeah feels like the jist of it to me.  Point 5 really gets my craw.  Guys with guns will force me to pay jizya whether I want to or not and I'm not allowed to threaten back.

[Ratman_tf]

Hamas are terrorists and acting like Terrorists.

Israel wants ALL of the rocket atracks to stop and they are just defending themselves.

There is no 'occupation' related to the so-called 'Palestinians'. The land is Israel and has been and always will be Israel. Every time they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries they tended to gain territory that was oroginally supposed to be their's in the first place.
"Palestinian" since the 1960s is more of a political designation and not really a 'nation' or ethnic group.

This makes me wonder if we're disagreeing about some basic facts here.

When I refer to Palestinians and Palestine, I have meant the ~5 million inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza, not including Israeli settlers in the West Bank. At present, they are citizens of no country. They have been living on the same land for many generations, since before 1947. In the original 1947 U.N. Partition Plan, the West Bank and Gaza were supposed to be an independent country from Israel. However, that land has been claimed by Israeli since it was seized in the 1967 war.

At present, Palestine is not a sovereign country in that the Israeli military controls all its borders, including internal borders within the West Bank that divide it into six regions. Since 1995, Palestinians can have passports issued by the local government (the Palestinian Authority) - but Israel can override those passports, and they can only leave or travel between regions with Israeli permission. The Israelis do not permit airports within Palestine, and there is a naval blockade that stops all boats from leaving or entering Gaza, and all land crossings have Israeli military checkpoints.

There are roughly two ways to view this:

(1) That land is Israel, and thus the Palestinians are Israelis with no citizenship or rights.

(2) That land is Palestine, and Israel has been militarily occupying it.

I think another view that a lot of people tend to hold, is that the land is an arbitrary chunk of dirt, and two groups are fighting over it because they say they were there first. Sometimes Yahweh/Allah gets dragged into the fight as some kind of final arbiter, but that just puts another level of "Nuh-uh!" on the cake.

[Heavy Josh]

  https://lawoffice.org.il/en/obtaining-citizenship-in-israel/

  Then maybe you will want to explain it to the law firm here that handles immigration to Israel.    Which hell I do not know, if we are splitting hairs over words here?  There is most definitely an extreme bias to a specific faith and ethnicity, if the right to return can be passed down from a parent, with no need for the child to prove they follow a faith...is that not ethnic?  You also make a statement as if Muslims or christians make up a large percentage of citizens.  Muslims make up a sizable percentage of permanent residents, and can vote in local elections, NOT national or parliamentary elections.  Your link gives no hard numbers as to how many actual citizens are among the muslim population, and even goes on to clarify MANY of the arab residents are permenant residents and not citizens.  I miss hard numbers in that link, I do see the word many used twice, once to say many of the Arab residents are citizens, and then again later to say many of the Arab residents are not citizens....     Or if the standards to achieve citizenship are anywhere near the same, especially for an immigrant.   What percentage of Muslim immigrants with no family that has ever lived in Israel are able to become citizens?

I'll address your concerns, because they are valid, though I think you have something wrong: there is a sizeable (20%) non-Jewish minority in Israel that has full citizenship rights. There are Muslim and Christian Arabs that are in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court... etc. If you were talking about permanent residents, then yes, it is very difficult for non-Jewish permanent residents to become citizens.

In terms of ethno-state, yes, Israel has been set up as a Jewish ethno-state, and for good historical reasons: it is intended to be a life raft state for Jews in the Diaspora, regardless of their level of religious observance, in case they are in danger and need to flee their homes. Had there been a sovereign Jewish state in 1939, we would not have to talk about the necessity for this. But the same goes for 1948-1972, when Israel served as a life raft state for Jews fleeing from persecution from the Muslim world. Or when they fled from the USSR before its dissolution. Or when they fled from Yemen over the past five years due to targeting and persecution. Or France, and the UK, today, for similar reasons.

Maybe in some ideal world there would not be a need for a Jewish state where Jews do not have to protect their sovereignty as Jews to ensure that they are not reduced to a persecuted minority dependent on the temporary--if well-meaning--tolerance of others. But this is not that timeline.

[oggsmash]

Greetings!

Israel is more or less an "Ethno-State". That's right, since the ancient times of the Patriarch Abraham.

So what? Israel, like any other nation state, can organize itself as IT SEES FIT. It doesn't need a trainload of pussies approval.

Japan, also, is more or less an "Ethno-State". Good for them. You aren't Jewish, or Japanese, you don't have the same kind of rights there as Jewish or Japanese people do. Again, too fucking bad. Nation states have a right to organize themselves as they see fit.

Probably most of the world are ethno states. Nothing unusual about that at all. Most people from group A prefer living with people from group A, and don't like being invaded and fucked with by people from other groups. It's that simple. Lots of countries in Africa are largely ethno states, too. Step out of line there, bitch and scream that you don't like the way they do things in Songhay and see what the fuck happens to you. That's because those folks have their own culture, THEIR way of doing shit. YOU don't have a right to go there and criticize, or complain, or demand they change their fucking culture. They have a right to keep their culture and maintain their own ways of doing things. Fuck what the pussy cuck foreigners want.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   I think the issue that gets to me though, is Japan is not sending mountains of cash to the USA to affect policy on immigration.  APAC is, and I am fine with an organization feeling there are policies that make for best outcomes for a nation, but it seems their policy choices differ massively based on latitude and longitude.  They push an agenda of much more open borders, no walls, and easy path to citizenship in the USA, and push the word for word opposite in Israel.  Boiling down to "restricted immigrating USA = ETHNOSTATE...ETHNOSTATE BAD!!!" while as mentioned, arguing for and supporting financially a COMPLETELY opposite position for Israel.  I would say there are quite a few politicians in the USA who have similar views, both R and D.  I think the biggest issues the democrats have right now is they have gone so far left, they forgot to tell the newbs you sway back way right on policy for Israel.