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Author Topic: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel  (Read 26392 times)

Shasarak

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2021, 08:12:33 PM »
I don't think being World Police has done any good for the average American, or for the world at large.

Our interventions in the Middle East and Latin America since the end of the Cold War don't seem to be making the world safer and more stable, or making other countries more positive towards us. Mostly it just seems to generate a lot of money for bomb manufacturers.

I support foreign intervention with a clear mandate and mission, but those are rare. Specifically, I think the Korean War and the first Gulf War were clear - one country invaded another, and an international alliance stops and pushes back the invasion.

I assume that you have evidence of the deaths by war increasing from WW2 until now.  I mean since the US being World Police is not good for the world at large.

That doesn't logically follow. Yes, war deaths have decreased since the peak deaths of WW2 - but that doesn't mean that all of the U.S.'s wars are responsible for the decrease. This is like presidents' taking credit for all the economy, when the economy changes regardless of presidential action -- and even moreso since the U.S. is only one slice of the world.

I think the U.S. has done some good by opposing international aggression, and we were right to stand against invasions by the Soviets and others. But a lot of our other wars did not increase stability.

Oh, I see.  Decrease in deaths from war is not due to the US acting as World Police its is just coincidence that there are less wars and therefore less death even as the weapons of war increase in deadliness and decrease in cost.

So then why do you suggest the world is worse off with the US acting as World Police?
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SHARK

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #76 on: May 17, 2021, 08:22:58 PM »
Greetings!

Heh. *Most* of the world loves having America as the "World Police." We are THE EMPIRE, like ancient Rome, and everyone knows it.

Literally, for a century or so now, when a US Carrier Strike Fleet cruises off someone's shores, with a regiment of US Marines standing by, you better damn right that changes things and influences politics and choices, for everyone in whatever fucking country. Leaders, wanna-be leaders, rebels, everyone's fucking strumpet, they all sit the hell up and start doing shit differently.

They all know that in a *blink* their whole world can go fucking dark, and they are fucked nine ways to Sunday.

That's the way things are when you are the biggest, meanest gorilla on the block. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Kyle Aaron

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2021, 08:47:16 PM »
Well, there have been other factors since WWII than the US trying to be world police.

It does happen sometimes in history that after a particularly destructive war, or series of wars, people settle down into relative peace for a time. The Thirty Years' War was followed by the Peace of Westphalia in 1649 - and certainly there were wars after that, but much less destructive ones for a century. Likewise the Napoleonic Wars ending in 1815 were followed by no wars between the Great Powers until 1850-53 with the Crimean War, but that was limited in geography, thus the name. After that there were no direct conflicts between Great Powers until the Great War - a period of 99 years of peace across Western Europe.

One of the things that comes out of these conflicts is some sort of mechanism where the Great Powers agree to maintain the peace, implicitly blaming minor powers for their previous conflicts. There was an idea of a Congress of Great Powers, which would meet from time to time to settle disputes, such as the carve-up of Africa. The League of Nations was a more egalitarian idea, with all countries having a single vote, and unanimous votes required to do anything much - but the United Nations was a return to the old idea, with the Permanent Members of the UN Security Council being in effect a Congress of Great Powers.

But this one sat permanently, they didn't wait for a crisis and then call one, they were always there. Thus a Soviet Ambassador to the UN was sitting in New York in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. When the Council met, the Soviet representative knew that if his negotiations failed, he'd be radioactive ash, too. This gave him a strong incentive to be polite and reasonable.

Having a permanent Congress of Great Powers means that instead of troops massing, you get Khrushchev banging his shoe on the table. Undignified, but less bloody.

And of course, all those Great Powers having nuclear weapons also makes a difference. It necessarily limits wars, so that the Great Powers are reluctant to enter into direct conflicts with each-other, and when they do get into conflicts, they try not to make them so destructive that people think nuking wouldn't be any worse.

There's been a growing humanitarianism, too. After the horrors of Dresden, Auschwitz, Katyn Forest and Hiroshima, the Great Powers, at least, decided to restrain themselves a bit. When the West invaded Iraq we did not start by firebombing Baghdad. When the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia they did not simply shoot 50,000 people. Calley's massacre at My Lai was an horrendous crime for which he should have been hanged, but it was not an everyday occurrence, the US Army did not have Einsatzgruppen units as part of its order of battle.

US leadership most certainly deserves a lot of credit in reducing the severity of wars since 1945. But the other Great Powers deserve a lot of credit, too, and diplomacy in the United Nations is boring and bureaucratic and stupid - but has prevented a lot of misery. The UN is like vaccines, its very success makes us think we don't need it.
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Mjollnir
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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #78 on: May 17, 2021, 09:38:24 PM »
Heh. *Most* of the world loves having America as the "World Police." We are THE EMPIRE, like ancient Rome, and everyone knows it.

And how does that benefit us?

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #79 on: May 17, 2021, 10:00:57 PM »
5% of the world's population consuming 25% of the world's resources sounds like a benefit to me. But perhaps white aryan types are all ascetics living in caves, I dunno. :)
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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2021, 10:15:13 PM »
Plastic consumer culture doesn't benefit me, but then again I'm not an international merchant or financier.

SHARK

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2021, 10:56:27 PM »
Well, there have been other factors since WWII than the US trying to be world police.

It does happen sometimes in history that after a particularly destructive war, or series of wars, people settle down into relative peace for a time. The Thirty Years' War was followed by the Peace of Westphalia in 1649 - and certainly there were wars after that, but much less destructive ones for a century. Likewise the Napoleonic Wars ending in 1815 were followed by no wars between the Great Powers until 1850-53 with the Crimean War, but that was limited in geography, thus the name. After that there were no direct conflicts between Great Powers until the Great War - a period of 99 years of peace across Western Europe.

One of the things that comes out of these conflicts is some sort of mechanism where the Great Powers agree to maintain the peace, implicitly blaming minor powers for their previous conflicts. There was an idea of a Congress of Great Powers, which would meet from time to time to settle disputes, such as the carve-up of Africa. The League of Nations was a more egalitarian idea, with all countries having a single vote, and unanimous votes required to do anything much - but the United Nations was a return to the old idea, with the Permanent Members of the UN Security Council being in effect a Congress of Great Powers.

But this one sat permanently, they didn't wait for a crisis and then call one, they were always there. Thus a Soviet Ambassador to the UN was sitting in New York in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. When the Council met, the Soviet representative knew that if his negotiations failed, he'd be radioactive ash, too. This gave him a strong incentive to be polite and reasonable.

Having a permanent Congress of Great Powers means that instead of troops massing, you get Khrushchev banging his shoe on the table. Undignified, but less bloody.

And of course, all those Great Powers having nuclear weapons also makes a difference. It necessarily limits wars, so that the Great Powers are reluctant to enter into direct conflicts with each-other, and when they do get into conflicts, they try not to make them so destructive that people think nuking wouldn't be any worse.

There's been a growing humanitarianism, too. After the horrors of Dresden, Auschwitz, Katyn Forest and Hiroshima, the Great Powers, at least, decided to restrain themselves a bit. When the West invaded Iraq we did not start by firebombing Baghdad. When the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia they did not simply shoot 50,000 people. Calley's massacre at My Lai was an horrendous crime for which he should have been hanged, but it was not an everyday occurrence, the US Army did not have Einsatzgruppen units as part of its order of battle.

US leadership most certainly deserves a lot of credit in reducing the severity of wars since 1945. But the other Great Powers deserve a lot of credit, too, and diplomacy in the United Nations is boring and bureaucratic and stupid - but has prevented a lot of misery. The UN is like vaccines, its very success makes us think we don't need it.

Greetings!

Good stuff, Kyle Aaron! I agree. The geo-political world has greatly benefitted from American leadership and power. Other countries as you mentioned, have also done valuable work through political channels and the UN in making the world as a whole, safer and more peaceful and prosperous through the decades since World War II.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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SHARK

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2021, 11:06:38 PM »
Heh. *Most* of the world loves having America as the "World Police." We are THE EMPIRE, like ancient Rome, and everyone knows it.

And how does that benefit us?

Greetings!

Well, through the years it has benefitted America primarily through deterrence--in the mix of Byzantine diplomacy and a crushing hammer--we have manipulated, influenced, and controlled most of the world to prevent some huge war developing and escalating, not to mention minimizing serious, enduring threats to America. So, there have been distinct benefits to the policy and exercise of global power.

I stipulate, however, that such a cost has been borne primarily by America, with a seemingly increasing diminishing of returns on such an investment. Escalating costs in energy, gold, and blood, and less respect, less cooperation, and an increasingly dangerous world, that when combined with trainloads of our own leadership's corruption, stupidity, and ineptitude, increasingly makes me skeptical of the policy, and supporting huge cutbacks, and disengagements. Let half the world burn, and suffer some real wrath and fire, and maybe they will remember the benefits of being our friends. They don't like it?--let them get chewed up by the sharks in their own backyards. Fuck them. They all need to remember what the fuck it means to stand tall as an independent nation, pay their own goddamned defense, fight their own fucking wars, and stop crying to America and criticizing America for every fucking thing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 12:14:28 AM by SHARK »
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Kyle Aaron

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2021, 11:22:20 PM »
Hmmm, an American who chooses a Nordic user name. Wants to wipe Jews off the face of the map. Makes references to international bankers and financiers. Isolationist.

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we've got a modern American white supremacist in our midst. Next Mjolnir's going to be (((naming))) us.

This is why God invented the ignore list. He should have absolutely have freedom of speech. That doesn't mean we have to listen to him.
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Pat
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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2021, 11:40:48 PM »
Hmmm, an American who chooses a Nordic user name. Wants to wipe Jews off the face of the map. Makes references to international bankers and financiers. Isolationist.

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we've got a modern American white supremacist in our midst. Next Mjolnir's going to be (((naming))) us.

This is why God invented the ignore list. He should have absolutely have freedom of speech. That doesn't mean we have to listen to him.
I've had people tell me what I believe too many times on this board and elsewhere, always based on pure nonsense, to think cherry picking a few statements some makes, and then assigning them a complete set of beliefs based on those few isolated statements, is ever a good idea. Especially in this case, where you're assuming the absolute worst possible interpretation. You could be right, or you could be completely wrong. But either way, you're in the wrong. If you defend freedom of speech, you should also be opposed to this.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2021, 11:53:27 PM »
If you see the tip of the iceberg you do not need to wait for the collision to guess what lies beneath it.

I'm an absolute believer in freedom of speech. My own state is thinking about banning swastikas - they weren't even banned during WWII, I'm not sure why they're supposedly a problem 76 years later. I've written my MPs against that. It's important for them to speak freely so we know who the fuckers are and can keep an eye on them, and suppressed speech turns to violent conspiracy before long. As MLK said, "the riot is the language of the unheard." Let them be heard - by someone or other, not me though. Let them blather into the ether.

But the right to speak does not imply an obligation for anyone else to listen. And I am not suggesting a banning. He can continue speaking, and anyone interested should listen to him. I'm not interested in hearing from modern Nazis. I don't think I can have productive or interesting discussions with anyone who's in favour of genocide.

More importantly, he hasn't talked much about games. And that's what this site is about, and that's what I'm here for. The politics is, we might say... tangential. Ahem.
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SHARK

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #86 on: May 18, 2021, 12:13:29 AM »
If you see the tip of the iceberg you do not need to wait for the collision to guess what lies beneath it.

I'm an absolute believer in freedom of speech. My own state is thinking about banning swastikas - they weren't even banned during WWII, I'm not sure why they're supposedly a problem 76 years later. I've written my MPs against that. It's important for them to speak freely so we know who the fuckers are and can keep an eye on them, and suppressed speech turns to violent conspiracy before long. As MLK said, "the riot is the language of the unheard." Let them be heard - by someone or other, not me though. Let them blather into the ether.

But the right to speak does not imply an obligation for anyone else to listen. And I am not suggesting a banning. He can continue speaking, and anyone interested should listen to him. I'm not interested in hearing from modern Nazis. I don't think I can have productive or interesting discussions with anyone who's in favour of genocide.

More importantly, he hasn't talked much about games. And that's what this site is about, and that's what I'm here for. The politics is, we might say... tangential. Ahem.

Greetings!

Kyle, *politics* is a side-dish! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Koltar

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #87 on: May 18, 2021, 12:28:47 AM »
All of this pretty darn simple and basic -

Hamas are terrorists and acting like Terrorists.

Israel wants ALL of the rocket atracks to stop and they are just defending themselves.

There is no 'occupation' related to the so-called 'Palestinians'. The land is Israel and has been and always will be Israel. Every time they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries they tended to gain territory that was oroginally supposed to be their's in the first place.
"Palestinian" since the 1960s is more of a political designation and not really a 'nation' or ethnic group.

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #88 on: May 18, 2021, 01:14:57 AM »
If you see the tip of the iceberg you do not need to wait for the collision to guess what lies beneath it.

I'm an absolute believer in freedom of speech. My own state is thinking about banning swastikas - they weren't even banned during WWII, I'm not sure why they're supposedly a problem 76 years later. I've written my MPs against that. It's important for them to speak freely so we know who the fuckers are and can keep an eye on them, and suppressed speech turns to violent conspiracy before long. As MLK said, "the riot is the language of the unheard." Let them be heard - by someone or other, not me though. Let them blather into the ether.

But the right to speak does not imply an obligation for anyone else to listen. And I am not suggesting a banning. He can continue speaking, and anyone interested should listen to him. I'm not interested in hearing from modern Nazis. I don't think I can have productive or interesting discussions with anyone who's in favour of genocide.

More importantly, he hasn't talked much about games. And that's what this site is about, and that's what I'm here for. The politics is, we might say... tangential. Ahem.
Predicting that when you see ice protruding above water, there's a lot more you don't see underwater, is pretty reliable. Internet telepathy is slightly less reliable than astrology.

If you value freedom of speech, then you should value hearing people out instead of jumping to conclusions. Especially when Godwin is involved.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #89 on: May 18, 2021, 01:50:29 AM »
If you see the tip of the iceberg you do not need to wait for the collision to guess what lies beneath it.

I'm an absolute believer in freedom of speech. My own state is thinking about banning swastikas - they weren't even banned during WWII, I'm not sure why they're supposedly a problem 76 years later. I've written my MPs against that. It's important for them to speak freely so we know who the fuckers are and can keep an eye on them, and suppressed speech turns to violent conspiracy before long. As MLK said, "the riot is the language of the unheard." Let them be heard - by someone or other, not me though. Let them blather into the ether.

But the right to speak does not imply an obligation for anyone else to listen. And I am not suggesting a banning. He can continue speaking, and anyone interested should listen to him. I'm not interested in hearing from modern Nazis. I don't think I can have productive or interesting discussions with anyone who's in favour of genocide.

More importantly, he hasn't talked much about games. And that's what this site is about, and that's what I'm here for. The politics is, we might say... tangential. Ahem.
Predicting that when you see ice protruding above water, there's a lot more you don't see underwater, is pretty reliable. Internet telepathy is slightly less reliable than astrology.

If you value freedom of speech, then you should value hearing people out instead of jumping to conclusions. Especially when Godwin is involved.

When asked: "what parts of Palestine should be returned to the Palestinians"? his answer was "ALL". I don't see any way to accomplish that other than genocide.

He's very carefull cuz pundit doesn't tolerate racists, but he's an anti-semite for sure.
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