TheRPGSite

Greetings!

Ben Shapiro, of the Daily Wire, discusses recent congressional members of "The Squad" as well as media talking head Trevor Noah, publicly supporting Hamas, a Muslim Terrorist group. These Marxist American politicians and media people are clearly insane, and full of hatred.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

This news event in recent days that Shapiro discusses--the Left's support of the terrorist group Hamas, reminds me of watching crowds of Liberal students in college--supported also by members of the Muslim Student Union--holding on-campus rallies and events where they screamed about their hatred of America, and of the Jews. They have long been anti-semites, with a deep hatred for Jewish people, Jewish religion, the state of Israel, and also of Christians and Christianity.

This cancer has continued to grow, and while at one time it was fairly isolated to on-campus radical student groups and racist college professors--it has now reached an even stronger position, where there are serving American political leaders in open support of Hamas, and routinely make their hatred of Jews known publicly. These people's hatred of Jews seems to continuously grow and spread.

So sad to see these monsters celebrating their hate and shrieking their desire for Israel to be exterminated.

A quixotic alliance between the Marxist left and Islam has been growing, and explains the smug Liberal's typical silence on how Muslims entire world-view is deeply oppositional to Western Civilization, and everything that allows the Liberals to even exist. In traditional Muslim countries, most of the stupid, smug Liberals in this country and abroad as well, would be swiftly beheaded or stoned to death, or have their throats cut and slaughtered like pigs.

Like Daniel Pearl, a Journalist.

The Liberals clamour for Israel to be shackled and weakened, while more support is given to Muslim regimes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I think there's a fundamental error here of saying that everyone has to be either pro-Netanyahu or pro-Hamas.

I liken it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Because they were anti-Soviet, American conservatives cheered the mujahideen including Osama Bin Laden. In film, Rambo was shown teaming up with the heroic mujahideen -- and James Bond did too. In the real world, Osama Bin Laden and his forces were given CIA training and funding.

But it was bullshit. Osama Bin Laden and the mujahideen were brave and dedicated, but they weren't actually a cause to cheer -- and giving them training and support was a mistake. The Soviet occupation was wrong, but not everyone who fought against it were positive heroes.

--

I feel similarly about Israel and Palestine. I feel the Israeli occupation of Palestine is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I support Hamas.

it's like a grandpa email every day

I used to be a supprter of Palestine but frankly their continued backing of terrorists has turned their cause illegitimate in my eyes.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 06:40:38 PM
I used to be a supprter of Palestine but frankly their continued backing of terrorists has turned their cause illegitimate in my eyes.

yeah that's cool. I support Hamas but since that only goes as far as posts saying I support Hamas it doesn't mean shit really.

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 06:22:45 PM
I think there's a fundamental error here of saying that everyone has to be either pro-Netanyahu or pro-Hamas.

I liken it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Because they were anti-Soviet, American conservatives cheered the mujahideen including Osama Bin Laden. In film, Rambo was shown teaming up with the heroic mujahideen -- and James Bond did too. In the real world, Osama Bin Laden and his forces were given CIA training and funding.

But it was bullshit. Osama Bin Laden and the mujahideen were brave and dedicated, but they weren't actually a cause to cheer -- and giving them training and support was a mistake. The Soviet occupation was wrong, but not everyone who fought against it were positive heroes.

--

I feel similarly about Israel and Palestine. I feel the Israeli occupation of Palestine is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I support Hamas.

Greetings!

Well, as Ben Shapiro discusses--these various prominent Liberals all support Hamas.

That is disgusting. Hamas is a terrorist group, and they hate Jews. They have said many times that the Jews need to be exterminated and driven into the sea. Hamas also has never been a friend to America, or any of our other allies in the West. The same goes for the PLO--also a Muslim terrorist organization.

But American Liberal cucks continue to line up in support of both Hamas and the PLO.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

On this issue I don't think it's worthwhile to get baited into, "The people who I disagree with on other issues are pro-A, therefore I reflexively am anti-A."

Both groups are bad. Both groups are targeting civilians.

I see very little rational reason to support Israel here. The US has plenty of problems of their own, yet we are constantly being dragged into conflicts in the middle east for the benefit of Israel, giving them billions of dollars in aid. From my perspective the entire relationship with the US & Israel is a big money laundering scheme intended to enrich politicians and the military industrial complex.

How about instead of getting involved to handle terrorist groups thousands of miles away, we make efforts to actually target and break up terrorist groups (BLM, Antifa) in the United States that terrorized cities, burned down thousands of businesses, and assaulted & killed hundreds of people over the past year?

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 06:22:45 PM
I think there's a fundamental error here of saying that everyone has to be either pro-Netanyahu or pro-Hamas.

I liken it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Because they were anti-Soviet, American conservatives cheered the mujahideen including Osama Bin Laden. In film, Rambo was shown teaming up with the heroic mujahideen -- and James Bond did too. In the real world, Osama Bin Laden and his forces were given CIA training and funding.

But it was bullshit. Osama Bin Laden and the mujahideen were brave and dedicated, but they weren't actually a cause to cheer -- and giving them training and support was a mistake. The Soviet occupation was wrong, but not everyone who fought against it were positive heroes.

--

I feel similarly about Israel and Palestine. I feel the Israeli occupation of Palestine is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I support Hamas.

   Well...if you have to choose between guys who have a more or less iron age religion they dont budge off of  and a group that is waging a war of outright genocide against women and kids.....

  I do not know that giving them support was a mistake.  Acting in ways you KNEW were going to offend and provoke them after the fact, might be a mistake.  Given how easily provoked and offended zealots are I guess it is a hard call, but the other choice is to allow genocide or take direct action (which would have touched off a nuclear war).   I can not say it is white and black with whether we should have supported Osama at the time we supported him from a moral perspective.  I CAN say with a what is best for American perspective, not supporting him or Israel is probably the best choice.   Let these people sort out their own shit.

Quote from: SHARK on May 14, 2021, 08:19:41 AM
Greetings!

Ben Shapiro, of the Daily Wire, discusses recent congressional members of "The Squad" as well as media talking head Trevor Noah, publicly supporting Hamas, a Muslim Terrorist group. These Marxist American politicians and media people are clearly insane, and full of hatred.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   Well, they are "terrorists" and I think we can say the Boston Tea Party was an act of terrorism.  If you are the small, technologically disadvantaged group....there are pretty much ZERO ways to get and action, traction, or concessions without terrorism.   Israel is an ethnostate.  THey have high walls, tight borders and policies and papers written by groups such as APAC as to how they should be able to have strict immigration and who is allowed to vote in their country.  We pay for those high walls and a great deal of the technological advantages they possess.   When that dude who was spying for Israel was released after serving his prison time for espionage, he was greeted upon arrival to Israel with a parade by the prime minister and given a pension and set up for life to finish out his days in Israel.   Those are NOT the actions of a "friend".   Israel has always had a cozy relationship with the USSR and now Russia.   I am not on the ground there and have no idea as to what is going on (I have been to Israel though, and at the time, in the 90's, the racism was naked and outright) now a days.   I know we give way too much money to lots of countries that do not operate in our best interests or have our best interests even cross their minds.  I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

Quote from: SHARK on May 15, 2021, 06:43:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 06:22:45 PM
I think there's a fundamental error here of saying that everyone has to be either pro-Netanyahu or pro-Hamas.

I liken it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Because they were anti-Soviet, American conservatives cheered the mujahideen including Osama Bin Laden. In film, Rambo was shown teaming up with the heroic mujahideen -- and James Bond did too. In the real world, Osama Bin Laden and his forces were given CIA training and funding.

But it was bullshit. Osama Bin Laden and the mujahideen were brave and dedicated, but they weren't actually a cause to cheer -- and giving them training and support was a mistake. The Soviet occupation was wrong, but not everyone who fought against it were positive heroes.

--

I feel similarly about Israel and Palestine. I feel the Israeli occupation of Palestine is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I support Hamas.

Greetings!

Well, as Ben Shapiro discusses--these various prominent Liberals all support Hamas.

That is disgusting. Hamas is a terrorist group, and they hate Jews. They have said many times that the Jews need to be exterminated and driven into the sea. Hamas also has never been a friend to America, or any of our other allies in the West. The same goes for the PLO--also a Muslim terrorist organization.

But American Liberal cucks continue to line up in support of both Hamas and the PLO.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

  Israel is no friend of America, and honestly I do not care for any opinion Shapiro has on the matter.  He has naked bias in the matter (which is fine, he should protect the nation that he has his second citizenship available in) and in no way is going to be objective about the situation.   I guess what I probably find most amusing in the whole situation is there seem to be a large number of American Jewish people who tend to support Israel, as well as some way lefty policies and ideals, and now they have to turn to some of the folks beside them (like the lady who bangs her brother) and scratch their heads about what sort of "allies" they have standing beside them.   Interesting mess indeed.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
   Well, they are "terrorists" and I think we can say the Boston Tea Party was an act of terrorism.  If you are the small, technologically disadvantaged group....there are pretty much ZERO ways to get and action, traction, or concessions without terrorism.   Israel is an ethnostate.  THey have high walls, tight borders and policies and papers written by groups such as APAC as to how they should be able to have strict immigration and who is allowed to vote in their country.  We pay for those high walls and a great deal of the technological advantages they possess.   When that dude who was spying for Israel was released after serving his prison time for espionage, he was greeted upon arrival to Israel with a parade by the prime minister and given a pension and set up for life to finish out his days in Israel.   Those are NOT the actions of a "friend".   Israel has always had a cozy relationship with the USSR and now Russia.   I am not on the ground there and have no idea as to what is going on (I have been to Israel though, and at the time, in the 90's, the racism was naked and outright) now a days.   I know we give way too much money to lots of countries that do not operate in our best interests or have our best interests even cross their minds.  I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

I generally agree with oggsmash here.

The label of "terrorist" is a meaningless binary that mostly just says who has the money and power in a conflict. The South African ANC were terrorists, and we supported them against the Apartheid regime. The mujahideen in Afghanistan were terrorists, and we supported them against the Soviets. The Nicaraguan Contras were terrorists, and we supported them against the Sandinistas. The Kurdish PKK are terrorists, and we supported them against Saddam Hussein.

I support freedom for the Palestinian people. I don't endorse Hamas, but I think the Palestinians are justified in violent resistance against Israeli oppression. Israel has been a constant aggressor against Palestine using military might for decades. Any time Palestinians fight back in any way, Israel cries that it's illegitimate and that the Palestinians must only use non-violence while they use American-made planes and missiles to blockade and encroach on the Palestinians.

I think we should stop spending billions to send weapons into that conflict.

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 08:11:52 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
   Well, they are "terrorists" and I think we can say the Boston Tea Party was an act of terrorism.  If you are the small, technologically disadvantaged group....there are pretty much ZERO ways to get and action, traction, or concessions without terrorism.   Israel is an ethnostate.  THey have high walls, tight borders and policies and papers written by groups such as APAC as to how they should be able to have strict immigration and who is allowed to vote in their country.  We pay for those high walls and a great deal of the technological advantages they possess.   When that dude who was spying for Israel was released after serving his prison time for espionage, he was greeted upon arrival to Israel with a parade by the prime minister and given a pension and set up for life to finish out his days in Israel.   Those are NOT the actions of a "friend".   Israel has always had a cozy relationship with the USSR and now Russia.   I am not on the ground there and have no idea as to what is going on (I have been to Israel though, and at the time, in the 90's, the racism was naked and outright) now a days.   I know we give way too much money to lots of countries that do not operate in our best interests or have our best interests even cross their minds.  I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

I generally agree with oggsmash here.

The label of "terrorist" is a meaningless binary that mostly just says who has the money and power in a conflict. The South African ANC were terrorists, and we supported them against the Apartheid regime. The mujahideen in Afghanistan were terrorists, and we supported them against the Soviets. The Nicaraguan Contras were terrorists, and we supported them against the Sandinistas. The Kurdish PKK are terrorists, and we supported them against Saddam Hussein.

I support freedom for the Palestinian people. I don't endorse Hamas, but I think the Palestinians are justified in violent resistance against Israeli oppression. Israel has been a constant aggressor against Palestine using military might for decades. Any time Palestinians fight back in any way, Israel cries that it's illegitimate and that the Palestinians must only use non-violence while they use American-made planes and missiles to blockade and encroach on the Palestinians.

I think we should stop spending billions to send weapons into that conflict.

  I dont think you can call Osama's guys terrorists while they were fighting Soviets....fighting a violent occupying force is not terrorism even if we stretch the definition to the limit.  Later, sure they definitely engaged in and supported terrorism, but I think context matters.  Osama ran a rough regime once they got rid of the USSR, but he only turned his ire to the USA once we started driving tanks across holy land to invade Iraq.  We invaded Iraq for taking military action against a nation opening stealing their sovereign oil.  I wonder what the USA would do if Canada or Mexico started angle drilling US oil deposits?    I agree 100 percent though, the time for the USA to fund ANYONE is long over.  Much less to fund people engaging in violence.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 08:19:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 08:11:52 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
   Well, they are "terrorists" and I think we can say the Boston Tea Party was an act of terrorism.  If you are the small, technologically disadvantaged group....there are pretty much ZERO ways to get and action, traction, or concessions without terrorism.   Israel is an ethnostate.  THey have high walls, tight borders and policies and papers written by groups such as APAC as to how they should be able to have strict immigration and who is allowed to vote in their country.  We pay for those high walls and a great deal of the technological advantages they possess.   When that dude who was spying for Israel was released after serving his prison time for espionage, he was greeted upon arrival to Israel with a parade by the prime minister and given a pension and set up for life to finish out his days in Israel.   Those are NOT the actions of a "friend".   Israel has always had a cozy relationship with the USSR and now Russia.   I am not on the ground there and have no idea as to what is going on (I have been to Israel though, and at the time, in the 90's, the racism was naked and outright) now a days.   I know we give way too much money to lots of countries that do not operate in our best interests or have our best interests even cross their minds.  I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

I generally agree with oggsmash here.

The label of "terrorist" is a meaningless binary that mostly just says who has the money and power in a conflict. The South African ANC were terrorists, and we supported them against the Apartheid regime. The mujahideen in Afghanistan were terrorists, and we supported them against the Soviets. The Nicaraguan Contras were terrorists, and we supported them against the Sandinistas. The Kurdish PKK are terrorists, and we supported them against Saddam Hussein.

I support freedom for the Palestinian people. I don't endorse Hamas, but I think the Palestinians are justified in violent resistance against Israeli oppression. Israel has been a constant aggressor against Palestine using military might for decades. Any time Palestinians fight back in any way, Israel cries that it's illegitimate and that the Palestinians must only use non-violence while they use American-made planes and missiles to blockade and encroach on the Palestinians.

I think we should stop spending billions to send weapons into that conflict.

  I dont think you can call Osama's guys terrorists while they were fighting Soviets....fighting a violent occupying force is not terrorism even if we stretch the definition to the limit.  Later, sure they definitely engaged in and supported terrorism, but I think context matters.  Osama ran a rough regime once they got rid of the USSR, but he only turned his ire to the USA once we started driving tanks across holy land to invade Iraq.  We invaded Iraq for taking military action against a nation opening stealing their sovereign oil.  I wonder what the USA would do if Canada or Mexico started angle drilling US oil deposits?    I agree 100 percent though, the time for the USA to fund ANYONE is long over.  Much less to fund people engaging in violence.

Greetings!

Quite right, Ogg! Context *matters*. AT THE TIME--the Muhajadeen were NOT terrorists--they were resisting the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan by the Russians--who were our enemy and political opponent at the time. Literally years later--if not actually *decades*--the fact that Osama Bin Laden became a terrorist leader, and opposed to America--does not change the fact and solid justification for America to assist the Muhajadeen during their war against the Communist Soviet Union. Anyone that attempts to make such an argument is arguing after-the-fact, with reading future developments into a situation in the past where such simply did not exist at the time.

Having said that, in regards to America getting involved in any current affair in the Middle East, I remain skeptical and conservative. Let the folks over there handle their own business, however it shakes out. America doesn't need to send American troops into the fire every time some fucking tribe of barbarians wants to have a fucking fit. Let them all fight to the death with each other.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 08:11:52 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
   Well, they are "terrorists" and I think we can say the Boston Tea Party was an act of terrorism.  If you are the small, technologically disadvantaged group....there are pretty much ZERO ways to get and action, traction, or concessions without terrorism.   Israel is an ethnostate.  THey have high walls, tight borders and policies and papers written by groups such as APAC as to how they should be able to have strict immigration and who is allowed to vote in their country.  We pay for those high walls and a great deal of the technological advantages they possess.   When that dude who was spying for Israel was released after serving his prison time for espionage, he was greeted upon arrival to Israel with a parade by the prime minister and given a pension and set up for life to finish out his days in Israel.   Those are NOT the actions of a "friend".   Israel has always had a cozy relationship with the USSR and now Russia.   I am not on the ground there and have no idea as to what is going on (I have been to Israel though, and at the time, in the 90's, the racism was naked and outright) now a days.   I know we give way too much money to lots of countries that do not operate in our best interests or have our best interests even cross their minds.  I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

I generally agree with oggsmash here.

The label of "terrorist" is a meaningless binary that mostly just says who has the money and power in a conflict. The South African ANC were terrorists, and we supported them against the Apartheid regime. The mujahideen in Afghanistan were terrorists, and we supported them against the Soviets. The Nicaraguan Contras were terrorists, and we supported them against the Sandinistas. The Kurdish PKK are terrorists, and we supported them against Saddam Hussein.

I support freedom for the Palestinian people. I don't endorse Hamas, but I think the Palestinians are justified in violent resistance against Israeli oppression. Israel has been a constant aggressor against Palestine using military might for decades. Any time Palestinians fight back in any way, Israel cries that it's illegitimate and that the Palestinians must only use non-violence while they use American-made planes and missiles to blockade and encroach on the Palestinians.

I think we should stop spending billions to send weapons into that conflict.

Greetings!

Well, Jhkim, using the term "Terrorist" is not meaningless in regards to Hamas and the PLO. For *decades* they have sponsored terrorism against Israel, our Arab allies, our European allies, and Americans. DECADES.

They are enemies of America, and of Western Civilization. They are fucking barbarians, and they should all be choked with napalm.

Those fucking scum have killed US Marines. They can all fucking die in terrible agony. Fuck them.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Could it be that if a conflict has been going for half a century or more that there are no simple easy solutions someone can cover in a forum post or political speech to supporters?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 15, 2021, 08:52:36 PM
Could it be that if a conflict has been going for half a century or more that there are no simple easy solutions someone can cover in a forum post or political speech to supporters?

   I think that conflict overall has a MUCH longer and deeper root than 50 years.  I agree that there is no solution on a forum or speech.  I suspect the solution to it will be when one side or the other is completely destroyed, and honestly I think both sides would willingly do so if it were possible to do so.  I think both sides of the conflict completely dehumanize their rivals and really only have limits imposed by reality (Israel can not wipe them out or they would lose their support of much larger, much more powerful nations where they source their military tech and a great deal of training, and Palastine can not in any way wipe out Israel, though I have no doubts their supporters in some surrounding nations would attempt it if they would not have to deal with the repercussions of having Israel's bodyguard come rolling in and level their cities).

    Once there is a significant world power shift, ie the USA becomes no longer a real world power, and the middle east catches up enough in military tech, I am pretty sure they are going to go ahead and get that Armageddon kicked off.  I guess it is possible Russia can stave off that inevitability for a good long while as well,  but I do think once the USA is no longer Middle East Security inc.  shit will hit the fan.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 15, 2021, 08:52:36 PM
Could it be that if a conflict has been going for half a century or more that there are no simple easy solutions someone can cover in a forum post or political speech to supporters?

Flavius Josephus wrote about similar bullshit happening in Judea in the first century.  It is not a place the sensible man chooses to fight in.

Everyone calling Hamas terrorists for fighting against the Zionist entity would vocally support a Jewish group that did the exact same thing.

"Israel" is founded on terrorism, the bombing of the King David hotel is one example. That particular terrorist attack, which killed 91 people, was committed by the Irgun, of which Menachim Begin, who went on to become prime minister of Israel, was a prominent leader.

Terrorist leader and Israeli prime minister Begin was a member of the exact same party as current Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Likud.

The reason "Israel" is showered with infinite financial, media, military, and diplomatic support from the US is that Palestinian-Americans don't have anything comparable to the influence and power over American institutions that their counterparts do.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

They did that already, how many times now, and yet here we are.

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 15, 2021, 09:44:36 PM
Everyone calling Hamas terrorists for fighting against the Zionist entity would vocally support a Jewish group that did the exact same thing.

Can you show me the Zionist entity that does the same thing as Hamas?

Or are we talking about theoreticals here?

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 09:48:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

They did that already, how many times now, and yet here we are.

  Yes, but never without MASSIVE economic and military support from the USA.  I think lets have them give it a try without that.   I suspect Palastine will suddenly have some very willing allies helping them out.  But you are mistaken if you think i dont know that Israel comes out on top of this latest round of poo flinging.  I just think down the road they can determine their own fates without our Mastercard going to their betterment.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 09:53:43 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 09:48:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

They did that already, how many times now, and yet here we are.

  Yes, but never without MASSIVE economic and military support from the USA.  I think lets have them give it a try without that.   I suspect Palastine will suddenly have some very willing allies helping them out.  But you are mistaken if you think i dont know that Israel comes out on top of this latest round of poo flinging.  I just think down the road they can determine their own fates without our Mastercard going to their betterment.

You talk about how the US funds Israel but somehow fail to mention every other country in the world that the US is also funding.

At least the money being poured in Israel is supporting a winner for once.

I will say it was awesome watching the Iron Dome in action. That thing is neat.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on May 15, 2021, 09:43:48 PMFlavius Josephus wrote about similar bullshit happening in Judea in the first century.

As you get closer to the equator, there's more conflict. And crime and domestic violence go down in winter and up in summer. Too much sun on their heads makes people crazy. That's why there's no civil war in Sweden, it's too fucking cold to go out and shoot people.

All we need is another ice age and people will all become civilised.

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 06:22:45 PM
I think there's a fundamental error here of saying that everyone has to be either pro-Netanyahu or pro-Hamas.

I liken it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Because they were anti-Soviet, American conservatives cheered the mujahideen including Osama Bin Laden. In film, Rambo was shown teaming up with the heroic mujahideen -- and James Bond did too. In the real world, Osama Bin Laden and his forces were given CIA training and funding.

But it was bullshit. Osama Bin Laden and the mujahideen were brave and dedicated, but they weren't actually a cause to cheer -- and giving them training and support was a mistake. The Soviet occupation was wrong, but not everyone who fought against it were positive heroes.

--

I feel similarly about Israel and Palestine. I feel the Israeli occupation of Palestine is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I support Hamas.

Anyone who actually paid attention during all of the Oliver North testimony knew how dangerous bin Laden was...but that got brushed under the rug in order to score political points during the hearings.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
   Well, they are "terrorists" and I think we can say the Boston Tea Party was an act of terrorism. 

Every time this is claimed by someone, I can tell that person has no grasp of history or any understanding of the Boston Tea Party.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 09:51:10 PM

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 15, 2021, 09:44:36 PM
Everyone calling Hamas terrorists for fighting against the Zionist entity would vocally support a Jewish group that did the exact same thing.

Can you show me the Zionist entity that does the same thing as Hamas?

Or are we talking about theoreticals here?

I meant it as a general statement, but there are innumerable examples of Israel/zionist/jewish groups engaging in comparable acts of  immoral and/or immoral behavior. That's why I used the King David hotel bombing as an example. The fundamental difference isn't the particulars of this bombing or that attack, it's the fact that the Israeli side has a lock on instuitutions and media in the US resulting in much greater influence over policy and public opinion compared to that of the Palestinians.

Take yourself out of arguing with someone on the internet mode, and just imagine "militant group attacks foreign occupying regime". Is this justifiable? Is it justifiable if the militant group is Jewish and the occupying regime is British? Is it justifiable if the militant group is Palestinian and the regime is Jewish? Is your knee-jerk response the same in both cases? If not, why not? How much has media shaped your perceptions? Who controls that media and where do their loyalties lay?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 16, 2021, 12:38:08 AM
That's why there's no civil war in Sweden, it's too fucking cold to go out and shoot people.

Then why is this an entry on wikipedia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 16, 2021, 02:12:36 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 09:51:10 PM

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 15, 2021, 09:44:36 PM
Everyone calling Hamas terrorists for fighting against the Zionist entity would vocally support a Jewish group that did the exact same thing.

Can you show me the Zionist entity that does the same thing as Hamas?

Or are we talking about theoreticals here?

I meant it as a general statement, but there are innumerable examples of Israel/zionist/jewish groups engaging in comparable acts of  immoral and/or immoral behavior. That's why I used the King David hotel bombing as an example. The fundamental difference isn't the particulars of this bombing or that attack, it's the fact that the Israeli side has a lock on instuitutions and media in the US resulting in much greater influence over policy and public opinion compared to that of the Palestinians.

About half of the media and institutions I've heard seem sympathetic to Palestine and Hamas, and critical of Isreal. But then I actually seek out "conservative" commentary, to get another perspective. I don't know how many people go beyond their local newscast or Facebook headline.

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/violence-jerusalem-evictions-palestinians
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-palestinians-gaza-violence-flaring-may-2021/
https://www.reuters.com/world/death-toll-rises-violence-rocks-gaza-israel-west-bank-2021-05-14/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/aoc-palestinian-israel-biden-policy-b1847382.html

Quote from: SHARK on May 15, 2021, 08:44:47 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 08:19:41 PM
  I dont think you can call Osama's guys terrorists while they were fighting Soviets....fighting a violent occupying force is not terrorism even if we stretch the definition to the limit.  Later, sure they definitely engaged in and supported terrorism, but I think context matters.  Osama ran a rough regime once they got rid of the USSR, but he only turned his ire to the USA once we started driving tanks across holy land to invade Iraq.  We invaded Iraq for taking military action against a nation opening stealing their sovereign oil.  I wonder what the USA would do if Canada or Mexico started angle drilling US oil deposits?    I agree 100 percent though, the time for the USA to fund ANYONE is long over.  Much less to fund people engaging in violence.

Quite right, Ogg! Context *matters*. AT THE TIME--the Muhajadeen were NOT terrorists--they were resisting the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan by the Russians--who were our enemy and political opponent at the time. Literally years later--if not actually *decades*--the fact that Osama Bin Laden became a terrorist leader, and opposed to America--does not change the fact and solid justification for America to assist the Muhajadeen during their war against the Communist Soviet Union. Anyone that attempts to make such an argument is arguing after-the-fact, with reading future developments into a situation in the past where such simply did not exist at the time.

At the time, the mujahideen struck at both military and civilian targets. They fired hundreds of rockets into Soviet-controlled areas; they blew up passenger planes (like this) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Bakhtar_Afghan_Airlines_Antonov_An-26_shootdown); they bombed civilian targets like the Ministry of Education, and executed civilians for cooperating with the Soviets.

It is the same with nearly all cases of guerrilla resistance to a more powerful occupying force. They don't fight fair. They strike at soft targets when they can, and often they try to be as ruthless as possible to intimidate the enemy. They may prefer to kill military targets - but that is much more dangerous, and they also kill civilians both randomly and symbolically. Some guerrillas are worse than others, but almost all of them engage in this to some degree.

These are all the same sort of things that Palestinians have done against the Israeli military occupation.

Quote from: SHARK on May 15, 2021, 08:44:47 PM
Having said that, in regards to America getting involved in any current affair in the Middle East, I remain skeptical and conservative. Let the folks over there handle their own business, however it shakes out. America doesn't need to send American troops into the fire every time some fucking tribe of barbarians wants to have a fucking fit. Let them all fight to the death with each other.

I agree on this point. We also don't need to send billions of our money arming them. The U.S. has spent over $100 billion in military aid to Israel - that's more than any other country by far - plus billions more in non-military aid. I think we should maintain treaties with our strategic allies against threats like Russia and China, but much of the rest is just foolish - like helping Saudi Arabia bomb Yemen. It isn't making the U.S. safer or improving world relations.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 16, 2021, 12:38:08 AM
That's why there's no civil war in Sweden, it's too fucking cold to go out and shoot people.

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 16, 2021, 02:16:08 AM
Then why is this an entry on wikipedia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden

No entries for 2021, 2020 and 2019.

2018, a single death.
2017, no deaths.
2016, a single death.
2015, no deaths.
2014, no deaths.
2013, no deaths.
2002-12, no deaths.

Certainly, people biffing grenades around and occasionally injuring people is a concern. But 2 deaths in 17 years seems to me rather short of "civil war."

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 16, 2021, 04:24:38 AM

Certainly, people biffing grenades around and occasionally injuring people is a concern. But 2 deaths in 17 years seems to me rather short of "civil war."

The two deaths weren't even the intended targets. The 2016 death was a 8 year old kid visiting from another country that the attacker(s) might not have known about.
The 2018 death was an old man who found the grenade on the ground as he and his girlfriend were out bicycling. He picked it up and put it in his bag and started cycling and then the grenade went off. Turned out it was a dud. There had been a shooting between gangs at that place the night before, so its possible some gang member had used it but it hadnt gone off.

So either gangsters in Sweden are terribly inept and can't even kill someone with a grenade unless by accident, or they are in fact very careful and at least try not to use explosives when they wan't to kill someone. They'll use guns for that. (which have had even more innocent bystanders killed than by grenades.)

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 16, 2021, 02:53:07 AM
About half of the media and institutions I've heard seem sympathetic to Palestine and Hamas, and critical of Isreal. But then I actually seek out "conservative" commentary, to get another perspective. I don't know how many people go beyond their local newscast or Facebook headline.

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/violence-jerusalem-evictions-palestinians
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-palestinians-gaza-violence-flaring-may-2021/
https://www.reuters.com/world/death-toll-rises-violence-rocks-gaza-israel-west-bank-2021-05-14/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/aoc-palestinian-israel-biden-policy-b1847382.html

I read the stories you linked. The parameters of discourse in America on this issue are set by the media collectively from "concern for Palestinian Human Rights" on the Left, as exemplified by the Teen Vogue article you linked, to explicit support for ethnically cleansing the Palestinians by people like Ben Shapiro on the Right. https://townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/2003/08/27/transfer-is-not-a-dirty-word-n976781     These are effectively the limits of "approved" public discourse, and they're set by the people who operate those media companies. Both sides of the dialectic are Zionist, they disagree on methods not goals.

Palestinian-Americans sympathetic to Hamas are not represented amongst the journalists at the New York Times, nor are there any Palestinian-American media mogul counterparts to Haim Saban.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53x_zrkJwDs
What did she mean by this?

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 16, 2021, 05:19:34 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 16, 2021, 02:53:07 AM
About half of the media and institutions I've heard seem sympathetic to Palestine and Hamas, and critical of Isreal. But then I actually seek out "conservative" commentary, to get another perspective. I don't know how many people go beyond their local newscast or Facebook headline.

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/violence-jerusalem-evictions-palestinians
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-palestinians-gaza-violence-flaring-may-2021/
https://www.reuters.com/world/death-toll-rises-violence-rocks-gaza-israel-west-bank-2021-05-14/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/aoc-palestinian-israel-biden-policy-b1847382.html

I read the stories you linked. The parameters of discourse in America on this issue are set by the media collectively from "concern for Palestinian Human Rights" on the Left, as exemplified by the Teen Vogue article you linked, to explicit support for ethnically cleansing the Palestinians by people like Ben Shapiro on the Right. https://townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/2003/08/27/transfer-is-not-a-dirty-word-n976781     These are effectively the limits of "approved" public discourse, and they're set by the people who operate those media companies. Both sides of the dialectic are Zionist, they disagree on methods not goals.

How would you like the discourse to look?

QuotePalestinian-Americans sympathetic to Hamas are not represented amongst the journalists at the New York Times, nor are there any Palestinian-American media mogul counterparts to Haim Saban.

The dude who made Power Rangers? What's that got to do with anything?

Quotehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53x_zrkJwDs
What did she mean by this?

Dunno. Why don't you ask her?

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 16, 2021, 05:36:09 AM
How would you like the discourse to look?

One focused on what is best for Americans. One not controlled by people with close ties to foreign countries.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 16, 2021, 05:36:09 AM
The dude who made Power Rangers? What's that got to do with anything?

He's an example of an Israeli-American media mogul who manipulates American policy by bribing donating to American politicians for the benefit of a foreign country, Israel.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 16, 2021, 01:22:12 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
   Well, they are "terrorists" and I think we can say the Boston Tea Party was an act of terrorism. 

Every time this is claimed by someone, I can tell that person has no grasp of history or any understanding of the Boston Tea Party.

  I have a complete grasp.  Under what the current people in charge would call terrorism, they most certainly were.  Do I feel they were terrorists?  No.  But most certainly if very light intrusion to the capital to put feet on desks is terrorism, it is beyond certain a similar event to the tea party would definitely be labeled terrorism by the people in charge and the media now.  People who can not see that are likely not paying attention to current events.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 11:20:04 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 09:53:43 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 09:48:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

They did that already, how many times now, and yet here we are.

  Yes, but never without MASSIVE economic and military support from the USA.  I think lets have them give it a try without that.   I suspect Palastine will suddenly have some very willing allies helping them out.  But you are mistaken if you think i dont know that Israel comes out on top of this latest round of poo flinging.  I just think down the road they can determine their own fates without our Mastercard going to their betterment.

You talk about how the US funds Israel but somehow fail to mention every other country in the world that the US is also funding.

At least the money being poured in Israel is supporting a winner for once.

  Incorrect I was pretty clear it was long past time for the USA to stop funding anyone.  Period.  Considering this might be the only people we funded with actual nukes, it seems our support goes way above and beyond where the USA normally supports the welfare line of nations.

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 08:11:52 PM


I generally agree with oggsmash here.

The label of "terrorist" is a meaningless binary that mostly just says who has the money and power in a conflict. The South African ANC were terrorists, and we supported them against the Apartheid regime. The mujahideen in Afghanistan were terrorists, and we supported them against the Soviets. The Nicaraguan Contras were terrorists, and we supported them against the Sandinistas. The Kurdish PKK are terrorists, and we supported them against Saddam Hussein.

I support freedom for the Palestinian people. I don't endorse Hamas, but I think the Palestinians are justified in violent resistance against Israeli oppression. Israel has been a constant aggressor against Palestine using military might for decades. Any time Palestinians fight back in any way, Israel cries that it's illegitimate and that the Palestinians must only use non-violence while they use American-made planes and missiles to blockade and encroach on the Palestinians.

I think we should stop spending billions to send weapons into that conflict.

I disagree.
I am not in doubt about who's the terrorist side in this conflict.
Which one of the two frequently lets the other side know where they will attack, so that they can move civilians away? Israel does. Which one is frequently targeting civilians and actually using its own population as a shield? The Palestinians (repeated claims that this has been debunked never quite hold up. Hamas does have less populated areas where they can fire rockets but they generally choose not to)

Besides, people often make the argument of how Israel is better equipped, organized and supported. That did not have to be the case since Palestine has always had powerful allies in the immediate neighborhood, while Israel has typically been supported by America. Israel was immediately attacked from all sides following the declaration of the independent Israeli state, but they won. they organized themselves because they had to and they had the skills to do it. Israel has been better organized ever since.

Quote from: Trond on May 16, 2021, 09:40:42 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 08:11:52 PM


I generally agree with oggsmash here.

The label of "terrorist" is a meaningless binary that mostly just says who has the money and power in a conflict. The South African ANC were terrorists, and we supported them against the Apartheid regime. The mujahideen in Afghanistan were terrorists, and we supported them against the Soviets. The Nicaraguan Contras were terrorists, and we supported them against the Sandinistas. The Kurdish PKK are terrorists, and we supported them against Saddam Hussein.

I support freedom for the Palestinian people. I don't endorse Hamas, but I think the Palestinians are justified in violent resistance against Israeli oppression. Israel has been a constant aggressor against Palestine using military might for decades. Any time Palestinians fight back in any way, Israel cries that it's illegitimate and that the Palestinians must only use non-violence while they use American-made planes and missiles to blockade and encroach on the Palestinians.

I think we should stop spending billions to send weapons into that conflict.

I disagree.
I am not in doubt about who's the terrorist side in this conflict.
Which one of the two frequently lets the other side know where they will attack, so that they can move civilians away? Israel does. Which one is frequently targeting civilians and actually using its own population as a shield? The Palestinians (repeated claims that this has been debunked never quite hold up. Hamas does have less populated areas where they can fire rockets but they generally choose not to)

Besides, people often make the argument of how Israel is better equipped, organized and supported. That did not have to be the case since Palestine has always had powerful allies in the immediate neighborhood, while Israel has typically been supported by America. Israel was immediately attacked from all sides following the declaration of the independent Israeli state, but they won. they organized themselves because they had to and they had the skills to do it. Israel has been better organized ever since.

So... asymmetric warfare is asymmetric? Got it.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 16, 2021, 10:07:49 AM

Quote from: Trond on May 16, 2021, 09:40:42 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 08:11:52 PM


I generally agree with oggsmash here.

The label of "terrorist" is a meaningless binary that mostly just says who has the money and power in a conflict. The South African ANC were terrorists, and we supported them against the Apartheid regime. The mujahideen in Afghanistan were terrorists, and we supported them against the Soviets. The Nicaraguan Contras were terrorists, and we supported them against the Sandinistas. The Kurdish PKK are terrorists, and we supported them against Saddam Hussein.

I support freedom for the Palestinian people. I don't endorse Hamas, but I think the Palestinians are justified in violent resistance against Israeli oppression. Israel has been a constant aggressor against Palestine using military might for decades. Any time Palestinians fight back in any way, Israel cries that it's illegitimate and that the Palestinians must only use non-violence while they use American-made planes and missiles to blockade and encroach on the Palestinians.

I think we should stop spending billions to send weapons into that conflict.

I disagree.
I am not in doubt about who's the terrorist side in this conflict.
Which one of the two frequently lets the other side know where they will attack, so that they can move civilians away? Israel does. Which one is frequently targeting civilians and actually using its own population as a shield? The Palestinians (repeated claims that this has been debunked never quite hold up. Hamas does have less populated areas where they can fire rockets but they generally choose not to)

Besides, people often make the argument of how Israel is better equipped, organized and supported. That did not have to be the case since Palestine has always had powerful allies in the immediate neighborhood, while Israel has typically been supported by America. Israel was immediately attacked from all sides following the declaration of the independent Israeli state, but they won. they organized themselves because they had to and they had the skills to do it. Israel has been better organized ever since.

So... asymmetric warfare is asymmetric? Got it.

does feel a bit like describing the rules of a COIN game doesn't it

(https://c1.legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Half-Way-590-LI.jpg)

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 16, 2021, 10:07:49 AM
So... asymmetric warfare is asymmetric? Got it.

How did it become asymmetric? The Jews did have some support in 1948 but then they had just been through the worst massacre the world has ever seen.

(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.locals.com%2Fimages%2Fposts%2F59082%2F59082_ef49if763lvd6j4_full.jpeg&t=1621189080&ymreqid=bf8a45cd-84b5-cf63-2161-760026010a00&sig=282flznvd6B80cRrW8t52Q--~D)

Quote from: oggsmash on May 16, 2021, 07:29:21 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 11:20:04 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 09:53:43 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 09:48:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

They did that already, how many times now, and yet here we are.

  Yes, but never without MASSIVE economic and military support from the USA.  I think lets have them give it a try without that.   I suspect Palastine will suddenly have some very willing allies helping them out.  But you are mistaken if you think i dont know that Israel comes out on top of this latest round of poo flinging.  I just think down the road they can determine their own fates without our Mastercard going to their betterment.

You talk about how the US funds Israel but somehow fail to mention every other country in the world that the US is also funding.

At least the money being poured in Israel is supporting a winner for once.

  Incorrect I was pretty clear it was long past time for the USA to stop funding anyone.  Period.  Considering this might be the only people we funded with actual nukes, it seems our support goes way above and beyond where the USA normally supports the welfare line of nations.

You would not even have nukes if it was not for the Jews so...what are you complaining about?

Next you will be complaining about giving Israel Jewish Space Lasers.

Quote from: SHARK on May 14, 2021, 08:19:41 AM
Greetings!

Ben Shapiro, of the Daily Wire, discusses recent congressional members of "The Squad" as well as media talking head Trevor Noah, publicly supporting Hamas, a Muslim Terrorist group. These Marxist American politicians and media people are clearly insane, and full of hatred.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Anti-Semites gonna Anti-Semite

In other news water is wet.

Seriously tho, is anyone really surprized?

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 06:22:45 PM
I think there's a fundamental error here of saying that everyone has to be either pro-Netanyahu or pro-Hamas.

I liken it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Because they were anti-Soviet, American conservatives cheered the mujahideen including Osama Bin Laden. In film, Rambo was shown teaming up with the heroic mujahideen -- and James Bond did too. In the real world, Osama Bin Laden and his forces were given CIA training and funding.

But it was bullshit. Osama Bin Laden and the mujahideen were brave and dedicated, but they weren't actually a cause to cheer -- and giving them training and support was a mistake. The Soviet occupation was wrong, but not everyone who fought against it were positive heroes.

--

I feel similarly about Israel and Palestine. I feel the Israeli occupation of Palestine is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I support Hamas.

What parts of "Palestine" should be returned to the muslim terrorists?

You're aware (I hope) that the "occupation" of the east bank is due to the Muslims war trying to destroy Israel no?

I hope also you're aware that this new bout was initiated (as always) by the terrorists.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:31:57 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 06:22:45 PM
I think there's a fundamental error here of saying that everyone has to be either pro-Netanyahu or pro-Hamas.

I liken it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Because they were anti-Soviet, American conservatives cheered the mujahideen including Osama Bin Laden. In film, Rambo was shown teaming up with the heroic mujahideen -- and James Bond did too. In the real world, Osama Bin Laden and his forces were given CIA training and funding.

But it was bullshit. Osama Bin Laden and the mujahideen were brave and dedicated, but they weren't actually a cause to cheer -- and giving them training and support was a mistake. The Soviet occupation was wrong, but not everyone who fought against it were positive heroes.

--

I feel similarly about Israel and Palestine. I feel the Israeli occupation of Palestine is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I support Hamas.

   Well...if you have to choose between guys who have a more or less iron age religion they dont budge off of  and a group that is waging a war of outright genocide against women and kids.....

  I do not know that giving them support was a mistake.  Acting in ways you KNEW were going to offend and provoke them after the fact, might be a mistake.  Given how easily provoked and offended zealots are I guess it is a hard call, but the other choice is to allow genocide or take direct action (which would have touched off a nuclear war).   I can not say it is white and black with whether we should have supported Osama at the time we supported him from a moral perspective.  I CAN say with a what is best for American perspective, not supporting him or Israel is probably the best choice.   Let these people sort out their own shit.

"Genocide" https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/ (https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/)

The only reason the IDF ends up killing children and women is because Hamas uses them as shields by launching their missiles from schools and such.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 16, 2021, 06:20:45 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 14, 2021, 08:19:41 AM
Greetings!

Ben Shapiro, of the Daily Wire, discusses recent congressional members of "The Squad" as well as media talking head Trevor Noah, publicly supporting Hamas, a Muslim Terrorist group. These Marxist American politicians and media people are clearly insane, and full of hatred.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Anti-Semites gonna Anti-Semite

In other news water is wet.

Seriously tho, is anyone really surprized?

Greetings!

True, my friend. very true. I think it is always good to highlight how such prominent Liberal Marxists--in the media and our government--are embracing such racism and hatred. It isn't like the figures that Shapiro is discussing are shadowy, unknown misanthropes lurking in their parent's basement somewhere.

They are front and center in American society.

It also shows--for the entire world to see--exactly how fraudulent, morally repugnant, and evil the Liberal Marxists are. Today it is the Jews and conservative Christians that are their targets of choice, along with shrieks against *anyone that voted for President Trump*.

The Jews are on the plate first, though the Liberal Marxists have a long list of people that they want to crush, imprison, and slaughter.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

seems like the entire world is real bad at seeing it though, i mean if it's that obvious and we're still kicking

Quote from: Shasarak on May 16, 2021, 05:43:28 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 16, 2021, 07:29:21 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 11:20:04 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 09:53:43 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 09:48:11 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 15, 2021, 07:39:19 PM
I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

They did that already, how many times now, and yet here we are.

  Yes, but never without MASSIVE economic and military support from the USA.  I think lets have them give it a try without that.   I suspect Palastine will suddenly have some very willing allies helping them out.  But you are mistaken if you think i dont know that Israel comes out on top of this latest round of poo flinging.  I just think down the road they can determine their own fates without our Mastercard going to their betterment.

You talk about how the US funds Israel but somehow fail to mention every other country in the world that the US is also funding.

At least the money being poured in Israel is supporting a winner for once.

  Incorrect I was pretty clear it was long past time for the USA to stop funding anyone.  Period.  Considering this might be the only people we funded with actual nukes, it seems our support goes way above and beyond where the USA normally supports the welfare line of nations.

You would not even have nukes if it was not for the Jews so...what are you complaining about?

Next you will be complaining about giving Israel Jewish Space Lasers.

  So now Jew and Israeli are the same thing?   I think they are not, especially in the context of a man who was American.   I did not know we were going to assign religious or ethnic tags to USA inventions.  I am complaining I do not care for MY money to help fund bullshit in another country. ANY other country.  That is what I am complaining about.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 16, 2021, 06:29:11 PM
The only reason the IDF ends up killing children and women is because Hamas uses them as shields by launching their missiles from schools and such.

There is truth to that, however if you've been to Israel (easy to do, a bit harder to tourist the PA) you'll know just how densely populated most of the Israel-PA area is. And the countries are overall very small - Israel is 17km across at its narrowest point, from the outer edge of the West Bank to the sea. Gaza is 356km2, and not more than a few kilometres wide, have a look on google maps (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gaza+Strip/@31.4002935,34.2477192,39255m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x14fd844104b258a9:0xfddcb14b194be8e7!8m2!3d31.3546763!4d34.3088255). Even if both sides scrupulously adhered to the various war crimes laws and so on, there'd still be horrendous civilian casualties. You can't chuck a hand grenade at a grunt without catching some poor civilian in the blast.

The same is true for much of Israel and PA. Which is of course an extra reason for maintaining peace there. The costs of war are simply too high for everyone involved.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 16, 2021, 09:07:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 16, 2021, 06:29:11 PM
The only reason the IDF ends up killing children and women is because Hamas uses them as shields by launching their missiles from schools and such.

There is truth to that, however if you've been to Israel (easy to do, a bit harder to tourist the PA) you'll know just how densely populated most of the Israel-PA area is. And the countries are overall very small - Israel is 17km across at its narrowest point, from the outer edge of the West Bank to the sea. Gaza is 356km2, and not more than a few kilometres wide, have a look on google maps (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gaza+Strip/@31.4002935,34.2477192,39255m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x14fd844104b258a9:0xfddcb14b194be8e7!8m2!3d31.3546763!4d34.3088255). Even if both sides scrupulously adhered to the various war crimes laws and so on, there'd still be horrendous civilian casualties. You can't chuck a hand grenade at a grunt without catching some poor civilian in the blast.

The same is true for much of Israel and PA. Which is of course an extra reason for maintaining peace there. The costs of war are simply too high for everyone involved.

I have been and I agree.   I have a vivid memory of a few things (some are dumb), like watching the Jim Carey movie The Mask with subtitles in Hebrew, spending an evening in a dockside bar (and finding out why we were forbidden to be in the dockside bars after talking to the "house" prostitutes who were 24 shekels (I think 8 bucks) for a "full ride", and meeting the detachment of Russian Infantry assigned to the Russian ship that was ALSO docked while were were there (in Haifa)...which lead to some interesting intra-military armwrestling matches and russians all screaming BUDWEISER after every match and buying all the americans one...which they were imports, way overpriced, and I hate BUD.  But I did get a chance to see something very interesting, a package was left unattended and calls to give space and the bomb squad was there inside of 15 minutes (near the local mall).  It did make me realize everyone living there is under a level of tension that people in the USA, and pretty much all of the western world do not understand. 

    I also got a chance to see that Israel has (or at least had) some laws that raised an eyebrow a time or two from me, and as I do not get all the details, I rather let them sort their own shit. I was also in Turkey a week or so before Israel and met a couple Israeli Newlyweds there.  They were nice, and we talked to them and hung around them quite a bit (though If I were Israeli, even if Sephardic..damned if I would take the honeymoon in Turkey) and they flat out asked if we would go with them when they went out in town as they felt safer.  They said they felt much safer at the Hotel (the hotels were very nice for the price and most of the tourists hanging around them were Germans, so if you can tolerate all the wrong people wearing thongs and going topless that is ok I guess)  Talking with that couple, they were also clear cut about how they felt about palestine, and the people in the strip.  Full removal seemed to be their idea (and I know, just one anectdotal opinion) and they did not care how, as they saw a continued existence at some point was going to mean one group or the other had to leave or die, and Israelis have no intention of leaving.

  So taking that experience, and watching over the 3 decades since how many US politicians seem VERY loyal to Israel,both parties,  and seeing how much money, spying (on the USA, an ally), and getting military hardware I am at a point where I think they are all stocked up and ready to sort it out themselves.    I guess reading support for open borders here and very tight borders and very tight controls on who gets to vote and be in Israel coming from APAC sort of soured me on pouring money and aid into Israel.  Watching BB congratulate that former spy and give him awards and money for life when he got to Israel didnt do much for me either.  So I guess I am done with them regarding supporting whatever goes on in their country.  I am not against them either, they are just not my business.

   Complete side track story to follow:
  Ok talking about Israel here has stirred some memories, and especially the night we (me and 4-5 other guys in my department from the Ship) were in the bar by the docks in Israel.   The story I will attempt to tell here to maybe lighten the mood/sidetrack/allow me to wallow in memory. 

  First, why were were in a dockside dive bar on the bad side of Haifa, Israel.  A couple friends and I had watched a movie at a mall (Mask, with Carrey, it was turrible) and we were walking along the road to see what we ran across.  As mentioned Israel has some narrow spots and as I remember Haifa seemed fairly small in a square mileage sense, and we figured sooner or later we would end up at some bar or place to hang out and maybe get a bite to eat.   It was night and we walked along the road and saw a couple guys we knew on a patio at a bar having a beer.  We also noticed we were by the water and these were the bars that were explicitly mentioned in the POD (plan of the day) for us to avoid.  We decide what harm can a couple beers on the patio do?  So we walked over and had a few beers and moved inside the bar.  The place was a dive, big time.  It actually had a trio of house prostitutes working there, one with the body of a 20 year old and the face of a 50 year old, another who was....a bit heavy for my taste, and another who looked to be about 8 months pregnant.   I remember talking a bit to one of the ladies (hardbody with old lady face) and she was pleasant, but I already knew the price tag for the ladies' time (about 8 bucks, as then the shekel was 3 to a dollar) and I have never cared for prostitution.  Now, I can not say I have some high minded moral objection, but we had been to Turkey a week or so before this and they have brothels (Israel does as well, more on that later) and many of the women working in the brothels in Turkey are working off an imprisoned husbands sentence or debt (not paying a debt lands you in prison over there back then) and to me it is a sad situation.

    Any way, the lady who was talking to us ends up keeping company with another fellow who is in the bar.  He is a merchant marine and 100 percent the image that would taint all Americans if anyone came into contact with him.  He constantly bragged loudly about how much money he made, how much money he had while very drunk, quite fat, and all the things we was going to do to the working lady (for simplicity sake I will call her Disa).   Here again, I say do as you will, but the level of disrespect this guy was putting on a prostitute was IMO out of line.  In any event some fellow comes into the Bar.  I do not know his nationality (Israel is diverse, and lots of people are blonde and blue eyed), but he spoke hebrew and russian and we were guessing he might be an immigrant from russia.  He was taking the loudmouthed merchant Marine's comments (I will call him dipshit from here on out) extremely personally.  I do not know if he new Disa or not, he looked to be around 20, was tall and thin and blonde haired and blue eyed.  She was much darker complexion, do not know if she was Arabic or Sephardic Jewish but I felt pretty sure they were not related.   

     So this goes on for a bit with dipshit trying to humiliate disa, and the blonde kid (I will call him ruskie from here on out) getting very agitated.  Finally, disa basically tells dipshit there will be no pay for play; we step forward and calm dipshit down and he sits and drinks his beer and disa goes over to the bar talking to ruskie.  I decide I am hungry, so i go out to the gyro guy who is set up near the bar patio.  Well I am lost in my thin sliced lamb and tazeeki (bad spelling I know) sauce and just as I finish, disa come running out to the gyro trailer and snatches a carving knife off the rack, a knife with a 20" blade.  She is screaming in what I guess was Hebrew and swinging side to side like she plans to kill someone.  I was a few feet away, so i get the fuck out of her reach wondering WTF is going on.  Well dipshit is coming toward the door shouting something.  Ruskie decides he has had enough and he and dipshit start to fight.  As all these drunken things look, it was a mess.  We are enjoying the spectacle while making sure to stay clear of the shortsword wielding hooker. Then, probably one of the most humorous things I have ever seen happens.  Ruskie drops a bit and throws a straight cross at dipshit's midsection.  He hits him right on the belly button and dipshit's pants immediately pop open and the pressure of holding back his flabalanche cause his pants to unzip and fall to his ankles all in what looked like one motion.  He is standing in the door of the bar, chasing ruskie out the door with the baby steps caused by his current condition in his whitie tighties.  The sight of a man with his pants around his ankles still trying to fight and pursue another dude had me in tears laughing.  They engage a bit more at a crowded table (full of Russian soldiers and sailors)  and dipshit lands a solid punch KTFO'ing ruskie outright.  At this point I step in and restrain dipshit from doing any more damage as he is trying to both pull up his pants and hit his fallen foe.   My other buds convince dipshit it might be best to leave, disa gets the wobbly russian kid up and takes him around the other side of the building.  A guy at the table, his name was Sergey, I remember that because he introduced himself and asked me my name.  He said I did the right thing and said I deserved a "BUTTWIDER immediately MY FRIEND", and bought be a nice $4.5 bud (insane dive bar price for an import).  Before i could tell him I hate bud I had one in my hand and was drinking it. This was a serious situation, because were  expressly forbidden from any interaction with Russian military or nationals for that matter under all circumstances.   I will tell more later if I dont get into trouble for derailing.

On Pundit's forum nobody is ever getting in trouble for turning a political thread into one about gaming.

And so, Ogg, how am I going to put this kind of combat in my game rules? Do I need a fumble chart where your pants might fall down? Special Drunken Slob Fight rules?

Quote from: oggsmash on May 16, 2021, 08:42:47 PM
So now Jew and Israeli are the same thing?

You are catching on.

But in any case, your money is not funding another country so you dont need to worry about that.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 16, 2021, 09:07:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 16, 2021, 06:29:11 PM
The only reason the IDF ends up killing children and women is because Hamas uses them as shields by launching their missiles from schools and such.

There is truth to that, however if you've been to Israel (easy to do, a bit harder to tourist the PA) you'll know just how densely populated most of the Israel-PA area is. And the countries are overall very small - Israel is 17km across at its narrowest point, from the outer edge of the West Bank to the sea. Gaza is 356km2, and not more than a few kilometres wide, have a look on google maps (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gaza+Strip/@31.4002935,34.2477192,39255m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x14fd844104b258a9:0xfddcb14b194be8e7!8m2!3d31.3546763!4d34.3088255). Even if both sides scrupulously adhered to the various war crimes laws and so on, there'd still be horrendous civilian casualties. You can't chuck a hand grenade at a grunt without catching some poor civilian in the blast.

The same is true for much of Israel and PA. Which is of course an extra reason for maintaining peace there. The costs of war are simply too high for everyone involved.

Who warns the civilians in a building where the terrorists are launching missiles from?

Who puts their missile launching shit on appartment buildings, schools, hospitals, etc?

Who launches missiles into civilian areas trying to kill civilians?

1.- Israel

2.- Hamas

3.- Hamas

Now tell me who are the ones doing ANY effort not to kill the civilians from the other side?

I am not really interested in getting into that. As someone who lost someone very close to me to the Al-Aksar Martyr's Brigades, and as someone who has felt the weight of a pack on my back in a distant and unpleasant land, I say: the competition of who is more or less murderous, who started it, etc, is all rather juvenile, and not conducive to peace.

I merely point out that even with a very scrupulous military, a conflict in such a densely-populated area will necessarily lead to many civilian casualties. A military which is less scrupulous, or lacking the means for proper targeting etc, even more.

Which makes achieving peace even more important.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 16, 2021, 06:25:33 PM
What parts of "Palestine" should be returned to the muslim terrorists Palestinians?

All of it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 16, 2021, 06:25:33 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2021, 06:22:45 PM
I think there's a fundamental error here of saying that everyone has to be either pro-Netanyahu or pro-Hamas.

I liken it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Because they were anti-Soviet, American conservatives cheered the mujahideen including Osama Bin Laden. In film, Rambo was shown teaming up with the heroic mujahideen -- and James Bond did too. In the real world, Osama Bin Laden and his forces were given CIA training and funding.

But it was bullshit. Osama Bin Laden and the mujahideen were brave and dedicated, but they weren't actually a cause to cheer -- and giving them training and support was a mistake. The Soviet occupation was wrong, but not everyone who fought against it were positive heroes.

--

I feel similarly about Israel and Palestine. I feel the Israeli occupation of Palestine is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I support Hamas.

What parts of "Palestine" should be returned to the muslim terrorists?

You're aware (I hope) that the "occupation" of the east bank is due to the Muslims war trying to destroy Israel no?

I hope also you're aware that this new bout was initiated (as always) by the terrorists.

Greetings!

The fucking Arab nations have been trying to exterminate the Jews for decades now. The MUSLIMS started every goddamned war over there against the nation of Israel. 1948, 1956, 1967, 1972, and essentially since the 1980's to the present. The Muslim terrorists need to swallow napalm. The Jews should be victorious. All the stupid whining and handwringing in Europe and here in America by those that want to cuck for the Muslims is shameful, and disgusting. America wouldn't tolerate terrorists based in Mexico to launch terrorist attacks into America every year, slaughtering innocent Americans in the streets, and making rocket attacks into our cities throughout California, Arizona, and Texas every three or four years. We would demand that every last one of them be hunted down and exterminated. Every fucking one of them. And yet, so many morons here like to mewl like pussy sheep, well, the Jews should show *restraint*.

Fuck that. The terrorist scum want war? They should be shown what war is like, relentlessly.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 16, 2021, 10:40:31 PM
On Pundit's forum nobody is ever getting in trouble for turning a political thread into one about gaming.

And so, Ogg, how am I going to put this kind of combat in my game rules? Do I need a fumble chart where your pants might fall down? Special Drunken Slob Fight rules?

   You know, I have no idea how to emulate or simulate that sort of action.  I laughed so hard I think I was seeing black dots.  (after having a couple beers with the Russian army we are back outside as years of propaganda about sneaky Russians is harshly colliding with laughing and joking with what seem to be a bunch of Russian Grunts).  A friend of mine and some of the Russian sailors started armwrestling after this.  My buddy (I will call him "Rocky", as his voice and speech patterns sounded almost just like Rocky Balboa) starts arm wrestling some dude across the street from the bar we were at, at a "less dive" bar.  The owner of the place ran them off as he was concerned any such testosterone fueled contest were likely to end in fisticuffs. 
   
     The two come across the street and have a rather close arm wrestling match.  I do not know if all Russians are like these guys were, and maybe being in the military was part of their personalities.  The guys there in the Russian military would flip from complete calm to having shouting matches with one another that looked like they were about to fight, then they would smile, laugh and go back to complete calm.  I suppose it could have been masculine ribbing, but since I didnt speak Russian, and Russian to my ear sounds harsh even in a calm tone, it was interesting.  In any event, the fellow who had just arm wrestled Rocky asks me for a go, I am still fairly sober and not so interested but he keeps insisting.  At this point in my life I was a brick shithouse, had been lifting weights consistently since I was 13 and I had a good bit of functional strength, he was probably 20 pounds lighter, so I beat him badly.   His expression was classic, he looked like he had seen a car crash, then laughed heartily, and then started a conversation in broken English. 

      He wanted to know if I was on the "Big Boat" and I said I was, he tells me he is on an attack submarine and his ship can sink my ship.  I laugh and tell him, probably so.  He then decides to get into Russia's and the former USSR being able to "beat the USA" in a war.  I laugh (and at the time, I was a bit of a "questioner" and not much of a flag waver after spending time researching desert Storm, seeing how military spending worked (a bit of time as supply PO for my division and having to order some 1 dollar woodscrews kind of pissed me off) I was a bit put off by the USA in some ways.  BUT, its odd how jingoism can boil up when the "other side" is the one doing the critique)) and tell the guy he has to stand in line to eat and probably had to buy the Jorts (he was wearing some sweet cut off jeans) while in port because the USSR could not afford them.  To this he turned bright red, stood up suddenly - so I stand up...wondering if I had just sparked an international incident because we were about to scrap... starts to shout in Russian, and then just as suddenly the color fades, he picks up his beer while motioning I should do the same and says, "My Friend, maybe we talk no politics?"  I said sure, we clinked cans and drank.  He sat back down and started talking about his family, asking if I was cold where I lived etc...  At this point I am a little out of sorts, as reading body language is hard here because this guy had just gone from arguing a little, to giving me a fight to the the end que, back to we are best pals all in the space of 4-5 seconds. 

    Anyway, the fellow from earlier in the story comes over (ruskie, the tall blond guy who had been KO'd by dipshit)and is having a HEATED conversation with the russian sailor I have been talking to (dunno his name, but he was strong with the ginger and freckles, so I will call him RED).   Now I should mention it LOOKED heated to me, but given the quick turns these guys seemed to take from calm-aggressive-calm, I had no idea how heated it was or was not.  They both sat in plastic deck chairs, maybe a couple feet between them really getting into it.  Finally, Red reaches down and grabs ruskie's chair leg and tips him over backwards and dumping him onto the patio.   Ruskie looks REALLY pissed, and walks away.  Red comes over to me saying over and over, "No worry my friend, is my problem. He is f@ggot".   I have no idea if he was implying the guy was actually gay, or if he was just really pissed.  But he again wants to clink cans.  As we "toast" I see out of the corner of my eye Ruskie sprinting up with .... a plastic deck chair he has raised with the intent to hit Red (I do not think I could come up with a worse weapon to hit someone with if I tried, I guess ruskie was really drunk, or maybe just dumb, dont know) so I shout, "Watch out!!!"  The plastic-less-than-2-pound-chair attack went about as well as you would think it should.  Red shrugs it off and snatches the chair from ruskie.  Ruskie takes a stance of a fellow who is willing to fight, but is not too good at it, while Red fires a sharp 1-2 and lands a fantastic right on the point of ruskie's chin.  Ruskie falls like he has been shot with a rifle and is out cold, *while he is falling to the concrete*, Red steps forward and stomps ruskie's face *hard* just as he hits the ground.  There is a loud crack and I have some concerns as to both short term and long term health repercussions for ruskie.  I step forward and grab Red's arm telling him its over and he should stop.  He looks at me with a battle fury in his eyes, very tense for a split second, and again...becomes completely calm, says "Thank you my friend" and takes off across the street and disappears into an alley.  I look down and the pool of blood under ruskie's head is already 2 feet across and he is completely motionless, I step forward to take his pulse, and a couple of the Russian army guys and my pals from inside are with the bar owner.  The bar owner tells me not to touch him, and I better get inside or I will be the one going to jail. He says he has called the people to take care of it, which I assume he means an ambulance.  I do not know how Israeli jails are, but we had to watch "Midnight express" on the ships movie channel in loop mode for several days before the ship had pulled into Turkey a week or so before we got to Haifa.   My assumptions about the jails were on the side of caution (that I would be in a cell with dudes talking about genocide and suicide bombs) and I listen to the bar owner and the rest of these dudes and go inside.  I looked outside 5 minutes or so later wondering why the ambulance had not come and how the fellow was doing.  The pool of blood was rinsed to some degree, you could still see where it was, and ruskie was gone.  No idea what happened to him.  I look back around to the room and it was packed at this point, we had maybe 6 Americans in there, the house "ladies" and maybe 15 or so Russian soldiers and sailors and my buddy Rocky was making armwrestling challenges and the room looked like something out of an 80's Chuck Norris movie with the array of loud and raucous characters.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 16, 2021, 10:55:40 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 16, 2021, 08:42:47 PM
So now Jew and Israeli are the same thing?

You are catching on.

But in any case, your money is not funding another country so you dont need to worry about that.

Well thanks to a fucked up national debt and the fed, you are in a pure sense correct, MY MONEY just goes to paying the interest on the debt that the good old USA took out to fund all the other nations. 

In Australia the country has increased its deficit to widen subsidised childcare (https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/federal-budget/huge-cash-windfall-for-working-families-in-budget/news-story/915fc848605ba268124e3f0b7fcac600) to families earning over $350k (not a typo). It has been observed that this will increase public debt so much that our children will end up paying for their own childcare.

That's alright, they can join the forces and go to foreign countries, hang out in sleazy bars with violent men and loose women. The rest of the time they will be in some dusty shithole, and dusty shitholes do not have ATMs, so they can save stacks of cash!

Perhaps we could solve this conflict by kidnapping the PM of Israel and the head of Hamas, finding a room somewhere and locking them in it disarmed, drunk and fighting it out with their pants around their ankles. Streamed to YouTube, of course. After this indignity nobody would take them seriously enough to be willing to go out and shoot at people.

And it'd be a good example to any other national leaders who get ambitious. Like if Biden wants to have a go at Iran, he and the Ayatollah... well, you get the picture.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 17, 2021, 09:30:21 AM
In Australia the country has increased its deficit to widen subsidised childcare (https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/federal-budget/huge-cash-windfall-for-working-families-in-budget/news-story/915fc848605ba268124e3f0b7fcac600) to families earning over $350k (not a typo). It has been observed that this will increase public debt so much that our children will end up paying for their own childcare.

That's alright, they can join the forces and go to foreign countries, hang out in sleazy bars with violent men and loose women. The rest of the time they will be in some dusty shithole, and dusty shitholes do not have ATMs, so they can save stacks of cash!

Perhaps we could solve this conflict by kidnapping the PM of Israel and the head of Hamas, finding a room somewhere and locking them in it disarmed, drunk and fighting it out with their pants around their ankles. Streamed to YouTube, of course. After this indignity nobody would take them seriously enough to be willing to go out and shoot at people.

And it'd be a good example to any other national leaders who get ambitious. Like if Biden wants to have a go at Iran, he and the Ayatollah... well, you get the picture.

  Oh there is certainly a problem that the people who start the fights, or set policy in place that is going to start a fight, never, ever have to feel the pain of their decisions.  Pain is part of learning, and wisdom is knowledge with scars.  I think we have waaaaay to many 'leaders' with zero scars.

  Your suggestion would the fastest track to Vitaly Klitscho's political career ever (which in Ukraine, last video of a debate in their government, it looked like they already decided to try an all out brawl, at least till they started bumping Vitaly).

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 17, 2021, 04:18:32 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 16, 2021, 06:25:33 PM
What parts of "Palestine" should be returned to the muslim terrorists Palestinians?

All of it.

So where should the Israelites go?

It's a rethoric question, I know you agree with Hamas.

I mean this whole fight seems a lot more polite than what was done to the civilians in England, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium in order to stop the Nazis from killing Jews.  And that's only the Western Front.  Never mind Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

We could stop funding Israel and see what measures they take once their backs are to the walls.  I have a feeling the polite warnings before destroying buildings will be replaced with carpet bombing and nukes.  How many civilians die once Israel stops giving any crap about what America thinks?

The US pays North Korea and Israel to not nuke the shit out of all their neighbors.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 17, 2021, 11:02:35 AM

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 17, 2021, 04:18:32 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 16, 2021, 06:25:33 PM
What parts of "Palestine" should be returned to the muslim terrorists Palestinians?

All of it.

So where should the Israelites go?

It's a rethoric question, I know you agree with Hamas.

i mean we gotta justify raising that refugee cap somehow

On gaming - I got a chance to play some with some gamers from Israel and some gamers from Palestine when I went to the Knutepunkt gaming conventions in Scandinavia. The one I got to talk to the most was an Israeli gamer, who was fine playing with Palestinian gamers. He felt that what was really missing was the human connection, and that if both sides would get to know the other as people, then progress would be made. The Palestinian gamers seemed cool, too - I interacted some at different points, but I never got into a serious conversation with them.

About the different characterizations --

I think recriminations about what happened seventy years ago isn't helpful. From the Palestinian point of view, they were conquered by the British rather than liberated from the Turks after WWI, and subsequently their land was stolen by waves of Jewish settlers under British rule, followed by declaration of a new country in their lands. Today, there have now been multiple generations of Palestinians who have grown up under Israeli military rule. Almost every Palestinian daily feels the results of the Israeli occupation - from the crippling economic effects of the blockade, to travel restrictions and more. The average Israeli feels almost no problems from the Palestinians. The death rate from terrorism is far less than Israel's own murder rate - and both of those are far less than the U.S. murder rate.

Quote from: DocJones on May 16, 2021, 02:29:17 PM
(https://c1.legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Half-Way-590-LI.jpg)

This is a false characterization of negotiations. In the most recent negotiations, Palestinians agreed to the 2002 "Road Map to Peace" - including recognizing Israel and rejecting terrorism, and that was rejected by Israel with an unworkable list of further demands. It is because of this rejection that Hamas came into power in Gaza.

Quote1.
The Palestinians will dismantle the (PA's) security organizations and reform their structures;
The Palestinians must cease violence and incitement and educate for peace;
The Palestinians must complete the dismantling of Hamas and other militant groups and their infrastructure, and collect and destroy all illegal weapons;
No progress to Phase II before all above-mentioned conditions are fulfilled;
(Unlike the Palestinians) Israel is not obliged to cease violence and incitement against the other party, pursuant to the Roadmap.

2. No progress to the next phase before complete cessation of terror, violence and incitement. No timelines for carrying out the Roadmap.

3. Replacement and reform of the current leadership in the Palestinian Authority (including Yasser Arafat). Otherwise no progress to Phase II.

4. The process will be monitored by the United States (not the Quartet).

5. The character of the provisional Palestinian state will be determined through negotiations. The provisional state will be demilitarized, with provisional borders and "certain aspects of sovereignty", and subjected to Israeli control of the entry and exit of all persons and cargo, plus its airspace and electromagnetic spectrum (radio, television, internet, radar, etc.).

6. Declaration of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, as well as the waiver of any right of return of Palestinian refugees to Israel.

9. Prior to the final settlement talks in Phase III, no discussions about settlements, Jerusalem and borders would be allowed. Topics would be limited to a settlement freeze and illegal outposts.

10. No references other than the key provisions of United National Security Council resolutions 242 and 338. No reference to other peace initiatives (it is unclear if the Oslo Accords are included).

12. Withdrawal to the September 2000 lines will be conditional.

13. Israel is not bound to the Bertini Report with respect to improving Palestinian humanitarian issues.

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_map_for_peace
https://ecf.org.il/media_items/817

Quote from: oggsmash on May 17, 2021, 09:18:38 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 16, 2021, 10:55:40 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 16, 2021, 08:42:47 PM
So now Jew and Israeli are the same thing?

You are catching on.

But in any case, your money is not funding another country so you dont need to worry about that.

Well thanks to a fucked up national debt and the fed, you are in a pure sense correct, MY MONEY just goes to paying the interest on the debt that the good old USA took out to fund all the other nations.

No one said that being the World Cops was going to be cheap.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 17, 2021, 04:30:05 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 17, 2021, 09:18:38 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 16, 2021, 10:55:40 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 16, 2021, 08:42:47 PM
So now Jew and Israeli are the same thing?

You are catching on.

But in any case, your money is not funding another country so you dont need to worry about that.

Well thanks to a fucked up national debt and the fed, you are in a pure sense correct, MY MONEY just goes to paying the interest on the debt that the good old USA took out to fund all the other nations.

No one said that being the World Cops was going to be cheap.

  Guess what else they didnt say?  I had to pay for the world cops.  Just did it.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 17, 2021, 04:30:05 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 17, 2021, 09:18:38 AM
  Well thanks to a fucked up national debt and the fed, you are in a pure sense correct, MY MONEY just goes to paying the interest on the debt that the good old USA took out to fund all the other nations.

No one said that being the World Cops was going to be cheap.

I don't think being World Police has done any good for the average American, or for the world at large.

Our interventions in the Middle East and Latin America since the end of the Cold War don't seem to be making the world safer and more stable, or making other countries more positive towards us. Mostly it just seems to generate a lot of money for bomb manufacturers.

I support foreign intervention with a clear mandate and mission, but those are rare. Specifically, I think the Korean War and the first Gulf War were clear - one country invaded another, and an international alliance stops and pushes back the invasion.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 17, 2021, 06:36:27 PM
  Guess what else they didnt say?  I had to pay for the world cops.  Just did it.

You wanted to be paid, right?

Why should everyone else have to do it for free.

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2021, 07:00:09 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 17, 2021, 04:30:05 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 17, 2021, 09:18:38 AM
  Well thanks to a fucked up national debt and the fed, you are in a pure sense correct, MY MONEY just goes to paying the interest on the debt that the good old USA took out to fund all the other nations.

No one said that being the World Cops was going to be cheap.

I don't think being World Police has done any good for the average American, or for the world at large.

Our interventions in the Middle East and Latin America since the end of the Cold War don't seem to be making the world safer and more stable, or making other countries more positive towards us. Mostly it just seems to generate a lot of money for bomb manufacturers.

I support foreign intervention with a clear mandate and mission, but those are rare. Specifically, I think the Korean War and the first Gulf War were clear - one country invaded another, and an international alliance stops and pushes back the invasion.

I assume that you have evidence of the deaths by war increasing from WW2 until now.  I mean since the US being World Police is not good for the world at large.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 17, 2021, 07:13:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2021, 07:00:09 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 17, 2021, 04:30:05 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 17, 2021, 09:18:38 AM
  Well thanks to a fucked up national debt and the fed, you are in a pure sense correct, MY MONEY just goes to paying the interest on the debt that the good old USA took out to fund all the other nations.

No one said that being the World Cops was going to be cheap.

I don't think being World Police has done any good for the average American, or for the world at large.

Our interventions in the Middle East and Latin America since the end of the Cold War don't seem to be making the world safer and more stable, or making other countries more positive towards us. Mostly it just seems to generate a lot of money for bomb manufacturers.

I support foreign intervention with a clear mandate and mission, but those are rare. Specifically, I think the Korean War and the first Gulf War were clear - one country invaded another, and an international alliance stops and pushes back the invasion.

I assume that you have evidence of the deaths by war increasing from WW2 until now.  I mean since the US being World Police is not good for the world at large.

That's less world policing and more mesopredator-state suppression by an apex predator-state.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 17, 2021, 07:13:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2021, 07:00:09 PM
I don't think being World Police has done any good for the average American, or for the world at large.

Our interventions in the Middle East and Latin America since the end of the Cold War don't seem to be making the world safer and more stable, or making other countries more positive towards us. Mostly it just seems to generate a lot of money for bomb manufacturers.

I support foreign intervention with a clear mandate and mission, but those are rare. Specifically, I think the Korean War and the first Gulf War were clear - one country invaded another, and an international alliance stops and pushes back the invasion.

I assume that you have evidence of the deaths by war increasing from WW2 until now.  I mean since the US being World Police is not good for the world at large.

That doesn't logically follow. Yes, war deaths have decreased since the peak deaths of WW2 - but that doesn't mean that all of the U.S.'s wars are responsible for the decrease. This is like presidents' taking credit for all the economy, when the economy changes regardless of presidential action -- and even moreso since the U.S. is only one slice of the world.

I think the U.S. has done some good by opposing international aggression, and we were right to stand against invasions by the Soviets and others. But a lot of our other wars did not increase stability.

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2021, 08:02:12 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 17, 2021, 07:13:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2021, 07:00:09 PM
I don't think being World Police has done any good for the average American, or for the world at large.

Our interventions in the Middle East and Latin America since the end of the Cold War don't seem to be making the world safer and more stable, or making other countries more positive towards us. Mostly it just seems to generate a lot of money for bomb manufacturers.

I support foreign intervention with a clear mandate and mission, but those are rare. Specifically, I think the Korean War and the first Gulf War were clear - one country invaded another, and an international alliance stops and pushes back the invasion.

I assume that you have evidence of the deaths by war increasing from WW2 until now.  I mean since the US being World Police is not good for the world at large.

That doesn't logically follow. Yes, war deaths have decreased since the peak deaths of WW2 - but that doesn't mean that all of the U.S.'s wars are responsible for the decrease. This is like presidents' taking credit for all the economy, when the economy changes regardless of presidential action -- and even moreso since the U.S. is only one slice of the world.

I think the U.S. has done some good by opposing international aggression, and we were right to stand against invasions by the Soviets and others. But a lot of our other wars did not increase stability.

Oh, I see.  Decrease in deaths from war is not due to the US acting as World Police its is just coincidence that there are less wars and therefore less death even as the weapons of war increase in deadliness and decrease in cost.

So then why do you suggest the world is worse off with the US acting as World Police?

Greetings!

Heh. *Most* of the world loves having America as the "World Police." We are THE EMPIRE, like ancient Rome, and everyone knows it.

Literally, for a century or so now, when a US Carrier Strike Fleet cruises off someone's shores, with a regiment of US Marines standing by, you better damn right that changes things and influences politics and choices, for everyone in whatever fucking country. Leaders, wanna-be leaders, rebels, everyone's fucking strumpet, they all sit the hell up and start doing shit differently.

They all know that in a *blink* their whole world can go fucking dark, and they are fucked nine ways to Sunday.

That's the way things are when you are the biggest, meanest gorilla on the block. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well, there have been other factors since WWII than the US trying to be world police.

It does happen sometimes in history that after a particularly destructive war, or series of wars, people settle down into relative peace for a time. The Thirty Years' War was followed by the Peace of Westphalia in 1649 - and certainly there were wars after that, but much less destructive ones for a century. Likewise the Napoleonic Wars ending in 1815 were followed by no wars between the Great Powers until 1850-53 with the Crimean War, but that was limited in geography, thus the name. After that there were no direct conflicts between Great Powers until the Great War - a period of 99 years of peace across Western Europe.

One of the things that comes out of these conflicts is some sort of mechanism where the Great Powers agree to maintain the peace, implicitly blaming minor powers for their previous conflicts. There was an idea of a Congress of Great Powers, which would meet from time to time to settle disputes, such as the carve-up of Africa. The League of Nations was a more egalitarian idea, with all countries having a single vote, and unanimous votes required to do anything much - but the United Nations was a return to the old idea, with the Permanent Members of the UN Security Council being in effect a Congress of Great Powers.

But this one sat permanently, they didn't wait for a crisis and then call one, they were always there. Thus a Soviet Ambassador to the UN was sitting in New York in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. When the Council met, the Soviet representative knew that if his negotiations failed, he'd be radioactive ash, too. This gave him a strong incentive to be polite and reasonable.

Having a permanent Congress of Great Powers means that instead of troops massing, you get Khrushchev banging his shoe on the table. Undignified, but less bloody.

And of course, all those Great Powers having nuclear weapons also makes a difference. It necessarily limits wars, so that the Great Powers are reluctant to enter into direct conflicts with each-other, and when they do get into conflicts, they try not to make them so destructive that people think nuking wouldn't be any worse.

There's been a growing humanitarianism, too. After the horrors of Dresden, Auschwitz, Katyn Forest and Hiroshima, the Great Powers, at least, decided to restrain themselves a bit. When the West invaded Iraq we did not start by firebombing Baghdad. When the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia they did not simply shoot 50,000 people. Calley's massacre at My Lai was an horrendous crime for which he should have been hanged, but it was not an everyday occurrence, the US Army did not have Einsatzgruppen units as part of its order of battle.

US leadership most certainly deserves a lot of credit in reducing the severity of wars since 1945. But the other Great Powers deserve a lot of credit, too, and diplomacy in the United Nations is boring and bureaucratic and stupid - but has prevented a lot of misery. The UN is like vaccines, its very success makes us think we don't need it.

Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2021, 08:22:58 PM
Heh. *Most* of the world loves having America as the "World Police." We are THE EMPIRE, like ancient Rome, and everyone knows it.

And how does that benefit us?

5% of the world's population consuming 25% of the world's resources sounds like a benefit to me. But perhaps white aryan types are all ascetics living in caves, I dunno. :)

Plastic consumer culture doesn't benefit me, but then again I'm not an international merchant or financier.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 17, 2021, 08:47:16 PM
Well, there have been other factors since WWII than the US trying to be world police.

It does happen sometimes in history that after a particularly destructive war, or series of wars, people settle down into relative peace for a time. The Thirty Years' War was followed by the Peace of Westphalia in 1649 - and certainly there were wars after that, but much less destructive ones for a century. Likewise the Napoleonic Wars ending in 1815 were followed by no wars between the Great Powers until 1850-53 with the Crimean War, but that was limited in geography, thus the name. After that there were no direct conflicts between Great Powers until the Great War - a period of 99 years of peace across Western Europe.

One of the things that comes out of these conflicts is some sort of mechanism where the Great Powers agree to maintain the peace, implicitly blaming minor powers for their previous conflicts. There was an idea of a Congress of Great Powers, which would meet from time to time to settle disputes, such as the carve-up of Africa. The League of Nations was a more egalitarian idea, with all countries having a single vote, and unanimous votes required to do anything much - but the United Nations was a return to the old idea, with the Permanent Members of the UN Security Council being in effect a Congress of Great Powers.

But this one sat permanently, they didn't wait for a crisis and then call one, they were always there. Thus a Soviet Ambassador to the UN was sitting in New York in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. When the Council met, the Soviet representative knew that if his negotiations failed, he'd be radioactive ash, too. This gave him a strong incentive to be polite and reasonable.

Having a permanent Congress of Great Powers means that instead of troops massing, you get Khrushchev banging his shoe on the table. Undignified, but less bloody.

And of course, all those Great Powers having nuclear weapons also makes a difference. It necessarily limits wars, so that the Great Powers are reluctant to enter into direct conflicts with each-other, and when they do get into conflicts, they try not to make them so destructive that people think nuking wouldn't be any worse.

There's been a growing humanitarianism, too. After the horrors of Dresden, Auschwitz, Katyn Forest and Hiroshima, the Great Powers, at least, decided to restrain themselves a bit. When the West invaded Iraq we did not start by firebombing Baghdad. When the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia they did not simply shoot 50,000 people. Calley's massacre at My Lai was an horrendous crime for which he should have been hanged, but it was not an everyday occurrence, the US Army did not have Einsatzgruppen units as part of its order of battle.

US leadership most certainly deserves a lot of credit in reducing the severity of wars since 1945. But the other Great Powers deserve a lot of credit, too, and diplomacy in the United Nations is boring and bureaucratic and stupid - but has prevented a lot of misery. The UN is like vaccines, its very success makes us think we don't need it.

Greetings!

Good stuff, Kyle Aaron! I agree. The geo-political world has greatly benefitted from American leadership and power. Other countries as you mentioned, have also done valuable work through political channels and the UN in making the world as a whole, safer and more peaceful and prosperous through the decades since World War II.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 17, 2021, 09:38:24 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2021, 08:22:58 PM
Heh. *Most* of the world loves having America as the "World Police." We are THE EMPIRE, like ancient Rome, and everyone knows it.

And how does that benefit us?

Greetings!

Well, through the years it has benefitted America primarily through deterrence--in the mix of Byzantine diplomacy and a crushing hammer--we have manipulated, influenced, and controlled most of the world to prevent some huge war developing and escalating, not to mention minimizing serious, enduring threats to America. So, there have been distinct benefits to the policy and exercise of global power.

I stipulate, however, that such a cost has been borne primarily by America, with a seemingly increasing diminishing of returns on such an investment. Escalating costs in energy, gold, and blood, and less respect, less cooperation, and an increasingly dangerous world, that when combined with trainloads of our own leadership's corruption, stupidity, and ineptitude, increasingly makes me skeptical of the policy, and supporting huge cutbacks, and disengagements. Let half the world burn, and suffer some real wrath and fire, and maybe they will remember the benefits of being our friends. They don't like it?--let them get chewed up by the sharks in their own backyards. Fuck them. They all need to remember what the fuck it means to stand tall as an independent nation, pay their own goddamned defense, fight their own fucking wars, and stop crying to America and criticizing America for every fucking thing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hmmm, an American who chooses a Nordic user name. Wants to wipe Jews off the face of the map. Makes references to international bankers and financiers. Isolationist.

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we've got a modern American white supremacist in our midst. Next Mjolnir's going to be (((naming))) us.

This is why God invented the ignore list. He should have absolutely have freedom of speech. That doesn't mean we have to listen to him.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 17, 2021, 11:22:20 PM
Hmmm, an American who chooses a Nordic user name. Wants to wipe Jews off the face of the map. Makes references to international bankers and financiers. Isolationist.

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we've got a modern American white supremacist in our midst. Next Mjolnir's going to be (((naming))) us.

This is why God invented the ignore list. He should have absolutely have freedom of speech. That doesn't mean we have to listen to him.

I've had people tell me what I believe too many times on this board and elsewhere, always based on pure nonsense, to think cherry picking a few statements some makes, and then assigning them a complete set of beliefs based on those few isolated statements, is ever a good idea. Especially in this case, where you're assuming the absolute worst possible interpretation. You could be right, or you could be completely wrong. But either way, you're in the wrong. If you defend freedom of speech, you should also be opposed to this.

If you see the tip of the iceberg you do not need to wait for the collision to guess what lies beneath it.

I'm an absolute believer in freedom of speech. My own state is thinking about banning swastikas - they weren't even banned during WWII, I'm not sure why they're supposedly a problem 76 years later. I've written my MPs against that. It's important for them to speak freely so we know who the fuckers are and can keep an eye on them, and suppressed speech turns to violent conspiracy before long. As MLK said, "the riot is the language of the unheard." Let them be heard - by someone or other, not me though. Let them blather into the ether.

But the right to speak does not imply an obligation for anyone else to listen. And I am not suggesting a banning. He can continue speaking, and anyone interested should listen to him. I'm not interested in hearing from modern Nazis. I don't think I can have productive or interesting discussions with anyone who's in favour of genocide.

More importantly, he hasn't talked much about games. And that's what this site is about, and that's what I'm here for. The politics is, we might say... tangential. Ahem.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 17, 2021, 11:53:27 PM
If you see the tip of the iceberg you do not need to wait for the collision to guess what lies beneath it.

I'm an absolute believer in freedom of speech. My own state is thinking about banning swastikas - they weren't even banned during WWII, I'm not sure why they're supposedly a problem 76 years later. I've written my MPs against that. It's important for them to speak freely so we know who the fuckers are and can keep an eye on them, and suppressed speech turns to violent conspiracy before long. As MLK said, "the riot is the language of the unheard." Let them be heard - by someone or other, not me though. Let them blather into the ether.

But the right to speak does not imply an obligation for anyone else to listen. And I am not suggesting a banning. He can continue speaking, and anyone interested should listen to him. I'm not interested in hearing from modern Nazis. I don't think I can have productive or interesting discussions with anyone who's in favour of genocide.

More importantly, he hasn't talked much about games. And that's what this site is about, and that's what I'm here for. The politics is, we might say... tangential. Ahem.

Greetings!

Kyle, *politics* is a side-dish! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

All of this pretty darn simple and basic -

Hamas are terrorists and acting like Terrorists.

Israel wants ALL of the rocket atracks to stop and they are just defending themselves.

There is no 'occupation' related to the so-called 'Palestinians'. The land is Israel and has been and always will be Israel. Every time they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries they tended to gain territory that was oroginally supposed to be their's in the first place.
"Palestinian" since the 1960s is more of a political designation and not really a 'nation' or ethnic group.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 17, 2021, 11:53:27 PM
If you see the tip of the iceberg you do not need to wait for the collision to guess what lies beneath it.

I'm an absolute believer in freedom of speech. My own state is thinking about banning swastikas - they weren't even banned during WWII, I'm not sure why they're supposedly a problem 76 years later. I've written my MPs against that. It's important for them to speak freely so we know who the fuckers are and can keep an eye on them, and suppressed speech turns to violent conspiracy before long. As MLK said, "the riot is the language of the unheard." Let them be heard - by someone or other, not me though. Let them blather into the ether.

But the right to speak does not imply an obligation for anyone else to listen. And I am not suggesting a banning. He can continue speaking, and anyone interested should listen to him. I'm not interested in hearing from modern Nazis. I don't think I can have productive or interesting discussions with anyone who's in favour of genocide.

More importantly, he hasn't talked much about games. And that's what this site is about, and that's what I'm here for. The politics is, we might say... tangential. Ahem.

Predicting that when you see ice protruding above water, there's a lot more you don't see underwater, is pretty reliable. Internet telepathy is slightly less reliable than astrology.

If you value freedom of speech, then you should value hearing people out instead of jumping to conclusions. Especially when Godwin is involved.

Quote from: Pat on May 18, 2021, 01:14:57 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 17, 2021, 11:53:27 PM
If you see the tip of the iceberg you do not need to wait for the collision to guess what lies beneath it.

I'm an absolute believer in freedom of speech. My own state is thinking about banning swastikas - they weren't even banned during WWII, I'm not sure why they're supposedly a problem 76 years later. I've written my MPs against that. It's important for them to speak freely so we know who the fuckers are and can keep an eye on them, and suppressed speech turns to violent conspiracy before long. As MLK said, "the riot is the language of the unheard." Let them be heard - by someone or other, not me though. Let them blather into the ether.

But the right to speak does not imply an obligation for anyone else to listen. And I am not suggesting a banning. He can continue speaking, and anyone interested should listen to him. I'm not interested in hearing from modern Nazis. I don't think I can have productive or interesting discussions with anyone who's in favour of genocide.

More importantly, he hasn't talked much about games. And that's what this site is about, and that's what I'm here for. The politics is, we might say... tangential. Ahem.

Predicting that when you see ice protruding above water, there's a lot more you don't see underwater, is pretty reliable. Internet telepathy is slightly less reliable than astrology.

If you value freedom of speech, then you should value hearing people out instead of jumping to conclusions. Especially when Godwin is involved.

When asked: "what parts of Palestine should be returned to the Palestinians"? his answer was "ALL". I don't see any way to accomplish that other than genocide.

He's very carefull cuz pundit doesn't tolerate racists, but he's an anti-semite for sure.

Quote from: Koltar on May 18, 2021, 12:28:47 AM
All of this pretty darn simple and basic -

Hamas are terrorists and acting like Terrorists.

Israel wants ALL of the rocket atracks to stop and they are just defending themselves.

There is no 'occupation' related to the so-called 'Palestinians'. The land is Israel and has been and always will be Israel. Every time they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries they tended to gain territory that was oroginally supposed to be their's in the first place.
"Palestinian" since the 1960s is more of a political designation and not really a 'nation' or ethnic group.

- Ed C.

I can't agree more with you.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 17, 2021, 11:22:20 PM
Hmmm, an American who chooses a Nordic user name. Wants to wipe Jews off the face of the map. Makes references to international bankers and financiers. Isolationist.

404. Refutation not found.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 17, 2021, 11:22:20 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, I think we've got a modern American white supremacist in our midst. Next Mjolnir's going to be (((naming))) us.

This is why God invented the ignore list. He should have absolutely have freedom of speech. That doesn't mean we have to listen to him.

"We". Subtly implying that everyone else should mute people you don't like. These viking hat guys, very sly.

Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2021, 11:06:38 PM

Greetings!

Well, through the years it has benefitted America primarily through deterrence--in the mix of Byzantine diplomacy and a crushing hammer--we have manipulated, influenced, and controlled most of the world to prevent some huge war developing and escalating, not to mention minimizing serious, enduring threats to America. So, there have been distinct benefits to the policy and exercise of global power.

I stipulate, however, that such a cost has been borne primarily by America, with a seemingly increasing diminishing of returns on such an investment. Escalating costs in energy, gold, and blood, and less respect, less cooperation, and an increasingly dangerous world, that when combined with trainloads of our own leadership's corruption, stupidity, and ineptitude, increasingly makes me skeptical of the policy, and supporting huge cutbacks, and disengagements. Let half the world burn, and suffer some real wrath and fire, and maybe they will remember the benefits of being our friends. They don't like it?--let them get chewed up by the sharks in their own backyards. Fuck them. They all need to remember what the fuck it means to stand tall as an independent nation, pay their own goddamned defense, fight their own fucking wars, and stop crying to America and criticizing America for every fucking thing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I largely agree, but I'd argue that having a global empire isn't necessary to deter foreign aggressors and it actually necessitates that we constantly engage in world police/occupation/regime change wars across the world. Furthermore the American people gain very little from it, with the vast amount of the spoils going to defense contractors, international banks, and other international businesses, the 0.01%. The average Americans who benefit the least from American Imperialism also end up bearing the greatest brunt of its cost, both in terms of taxes and in blood and trauma, as I'm sure you're well aware. And when the American Empire goes tits up, and all the people around the world are lining up for revenge, those same average Americans are going to be pinned with all the blame.

Just look at what happened with the British Empire. The British crown sent the redcoats out to conquer the world, and they did, through their own blood, bravery, and patriotic sacrifices. And it was the British Royal family, the Bank of London, and the House of Rothschild who reaped the profits. Then after the end of the British Empire, "because colonialism" is used to justify punishing average, working-class Britons with unwanted, third-world immigration. Meanwhile the Windsors, Rothschilds, and Sassoons continue to enjoy their ill-gotten wealth while suffering none of the negative consequences.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 18, 2021, 01:50:29 AM
When asked: "what parts of Palestine should be returned to the Palestinians"? his answer was "ALL". I don't see any way to accomplish that other than genocide.

He's very carefull cuz pundit doesn't tolerate racists, but he's an anti-semite for sure.

Why can't Jews simply give all Palestinians full citizenship and equal rights? Israel is a nation of immigrants. Diversity is Israel's Strength.

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 18, 2021, 02:03:12 AM

Quote

Why can't Jews simply give all Palestinians full citizenship and equal rights? Israel is a nation of immigrants. Diversity is Israel's Strength.

Israel DOES allow citizenship and voting rights to its Arab citizens - there are LOTS of Arabs in their government. They, however, are NOT shootong rckets off our doing terrorist attacks on Israel.

If certain groups want 'citizenship' and full rights - then they have to agree that Israel has a right to exist.

Do you actually read any History books or current newspapers?

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar on May 18, 2021, 02:54:12 AM
Israel DOES allow citizenship and voting rights to its Arab citizens - there are LOTS of Arabs in their government. They, however, are NOT shootong rckets off our doing terrorist attacks on Israel.

That's not what I said. Full right of return for all Palestinians displaced since 1948 and their descendants.

Quote from: Koltar on May 18, 2021, 02:54:12 AM
If certain groups want 'citizenship' and full rights - then they have to agree that Israel has a right to exist.

Why should they be forced to endorse a Jewish Supremacist regime in their own land? Give them full citizenship, equal rights, and while we're at it, Affirmative Action to redress the history of discrimination, and then let everyone vote on the future of the country.

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 18, 2021, 03:03:03 AM

Why should they be forced to endorse a Jewish Supremacist regime in their own land? Give them full citizenship, equal rights, and while we're at it, Affirmative Action to redress the history of discrimination, and then let everyone vote on the future of the country.

You have it backwards or are just revealing your own bias and bigotry all over the place.
Its not "their land" - it never was - the country IS the nation of Israel and always was and likely always will be.
Again 'Palestimian' is a political moniker meant to stir things up.

Its unwise to 'give citizenship' to terrorists who want you dead.

Over 10 years ago whilst some of us were at Gen Con one August - all over the TV news that weekend was live video of the Israeli government moving their own Jewish settlers out of Gaza because of a brokered Peace deal.  Less than a year later, Palestinian terrorists broke the deal with attacks - it would have been better in the long run if those Jewish settlers had stayed there.

- Ed C

Quote from: Koltar on May 18, 2021, 04:14:38 AM
You have it backwards or are just revealing your own bias and bigotry all over the place.
Its not "their land" - it never was - the country IS the nation of Israel and always was and likely always will be.

I wonder what would motivate you to lie like that.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/palestine-keys-return-home-israel-palestinians-a8398341.html

Quote from: Koltar on May 18, 2021, 04:14:38 AM
Again 'Palestimian' is a political moniker meant to stir things up.

Naming the Zionist regime "Israel" is meant lend a false air of historical and religious legitimacy to what is fundamentally a criminal hideout.

Quote from: Koltar on May 18, 2021, 04:14:38 AM
Its unwise to 'give citizenship' to terrorists who want you dead.

When Jewish settlers began arriving in the area in the late 1800's, the none of the locals "wanted them dead". But you claim that after almost 75 years of Jewish rule, now they do. If I told you that I moved into a neighborhood and after several years, everyone else ended up hating me, who would you think is most likely to blame?

Quote from: Koltar on May 18, 2021, 04:14:38 AM
Over 10 years ago whilst some of us were at Gen Con one August - all over the TV news that weekend was live video of the Israeli government moving their own Jewish settlers out of Gaza because of a brokered Peace deal.  Less than a year later, Palestinian terrorists broke the deal with attacks - it would have been better in the long run if those Jewish settlers had stayed there.

- Ed C

"Over ten years ago I saw something on tv, this is why Jewish settlers should steal more land"

One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

Quote from: trechriron on May 18, 2021, 05:09:36 AM
One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

Only if the second person is an amoral idiot.

Quote from: jhkim on May 17, 2021, 07:00:09 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 17, 2021, 04:30:05 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 17, 2021, 09:18:38 AM
  Well thanks to a fucked up national debt and the fed, you are in a pure sense correct, MY MONEY just goes to paying the interest on the debt that the good old USA took out to fund all the other nations.

No one said that being the World Cops was going to be cheap.

I don't think being World Police has done any good for the average American, or for the world at large.

Our interventions in the Middle East and Latin America since the end of the Cold War don't seem to be making the world safer and more stable, or making other countries more positive towards us. Mostly it just seems to generate a lot of money for bomb manufacturers.

I support foreign intervention with a clear mandate and mission, but those are rare. Specifically, I think the Korean War and the first Gulf War were clear - one country invaded another, and an international alliance stops and pushes back the invasion.

   First gulf war is more an example of being a rent a cop punishing a sovereign state for slapping a neighbor for stealing.  Saddam gave Kuwait plenty of warning, and then plenty of time to stop stealing oil.   I think the first Gulf war  was not a good call at all.  It did have GREAT PR and some really cool smart bomb cams though. 

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." --H.L. Mencken

As far as Israel/Palestine goes, consider the following:

Hamas/PLO/whatever considers ANYTHING Israeli-held to be a legitimate military target -- from border posts to pizzerias. So yeah, I don't think too much of them. Neither do most of the surrounding Arab countries; after Black September, none of the surrounding countries are going to take in the Paleo-stinians on any kind of a permanent basis. You can thank Nobel Peace Prize winner Yasser Arafat for that one.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 17, 2021, 10:00:57 PM
5% of the world's population consuming 25% of the world's resources sounds like a benefit to me. But perhaps white aryan types are all ascetics living in caves, I dunno. :)

Or did 2008 call and request their stats back?   How current is that statistic?

How did I know "the usual suspects" would support terrorists because their leftist handlers told them to do so...do you retards EVER use your own fucking brains or do you merely parrot MSM/CCP narratives?

  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed? 

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:07:15 AM
  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Probably the same sort of "ethno state" as Australia or Japan. But the latter is okay because, I dunno, reasons?

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 09:21:58 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:07:15 AM
  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Probably the same sort of "ethno state" as Australia or Japan. But the latter is okay because, I dunno, reasons?

  I was not aware Australia has codified laws to specifically control the demographics of their population. 

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:27:39 AM
  I was not aware Australia has codified laws to specifically control the demographics of their population.

Try to emigrate there and tell me what happens.

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 09:48:32 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:27:39 AM
  I was not aware Australia has codified laws to specifically control the demographics of their population.

Try to emigrate there and tell me what happens.

  Well, to be honest it never even made the top 10 of the places I plan to relocate to.  Good to know they are an ethno state I guess.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:07:15 AM
  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Such ethnostate
much wow

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546)

I'll also note there are Jews living in Israel from other different ethnicities, like from Russia, Turkey, etc.

Not to mention the Muslims and Christians that enjoy ciizenship and full rights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel)

So it's not even a teocracy

Care to try again?

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 09:21:58 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:07:15 AM
  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Probably the same sort of "ethno state" as Australia or Japan. But the latter is okay because, I dunno, reasons?

Such ethnostate
much wow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Immigration_and_country_of_birth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Immigration_and_country_of_birth)

Care to try again?

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 09:21:58 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:07:15 AM
  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Probably the same sort of "ethno state" as Australia or Japan. But the latter is okay because, I dunno, reasons?

  I was not aware Australia has codified laws to specifically control the demographics of their population.

That's because they don't.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 18, 2021, 11:56:55 AM
Such ethnostate
much wow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Immigration_and_country_of_birth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Immigration_and_country_of_birth)

Care to try again?

Pretty sure most of them aren't actual Australian citizens.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 18, 2021, 11:54:57 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:07:15 AM
  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Such ethnostate
much wow

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546)

I'll also note there are Jews living in Israel from other different ethnicities, like from Russia, Turkey, etc.

Not to mention the Muslims and Christians that enjoy ciizenship and full rights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel)

So it's not even a teocracy

Care to try again?

  https://lawoffice.org.il/en/obtaining-citizenship-in-israel/

  Then maybe you will want to explain it to the law firm here that handles immigration to Israel.    Which hell I do not know, if we are splitting hairs over words here?  There is most definitely an extreme bias to a specific faith and ethnicity, if the right to return can be passed down from a parent, with no need for the child to prove they follow a faith...is that not ethnic?  You also make a statement as if Muslims or christians make up a large percentage of citizens.  Muslims make up a sizable percentage of permanent residents, and can vote in local elections, NOT national or parliamentary elections.  Your link gives no hard numbers as to how many actual citizens are among the muslim population, and even goes on to clarify MANY of the arab residents are permenant residents and not citizens.  I miss hard numbers in that link, I do see the word many used twice, once to say many of the Arab residents are citizens, and then again later to say many of the Arab residents are not citizens....     Or if the standards to achieve citizenship are anywhere near the same, especially for an immigrant.   What percentage of Muslim immigrants with no family that has ever lived in Israel are able to become citizens?

   I guess my question is this, can all these things be true:

  1.  That Israel is not in any way a state of inclusive and welcoming immigration or paths to citizenship (no idea if ethnostate is the right word here, but your parents who have never set foot in Israel can give you the right to immigrate there and be a citizen despite you never setting foot in Temple your entire life).  While at the same time having strict immigration with regard to non Jewish immigrants, walls, borders and policed checkpoints as to who can enter the nation.  Call it what you like.

  2.  Israel acts and reacts in as moderated a method as is possible given the circumstances.  They know they live with an existential threat, but they do not simply destroy everyone.  They react as measured as possible.

   3.  Hamas is a terror organization, they historically do things we would call black and white evil.  If they get eradicated the world is likely better off. 

   4.  Israel is more in the "right" in this dispute and has full rights to defend lives and remove threats.
   
   5.  I have no dog in the fight, I feel Israel is right, but I offer zero aid, do not want any money from country going there, and certainly do not want to hear every politician harping propaganda to get public sentiment behind sending my son over there down the road.  No thank you. 

Greetings!

Israel is more or less an "Ethno-State". That's right, since the ancient times of the Patriarch Abraham.

So what? Israel, like any other nation state, can organize itself as IT SEES FIT. It doesn't need a trainload of pussies approval.

Japan, also, is more or less an "Ethno-State". Good for them. You aren't Jewish, or Japanese, you don't have the same kind of rights there as Jewish or Japanese people do. Again, too fucking bad. Nation states have a right to organize themselves as they see fit.

Probably most of the world are ethno states. Nothing unusual about that at all. Most people from group A prefer living with people from group A, and don't like being invaded and fucked with by people from other groups. It's that simple. Lots of countries in Africa are largely ethno states, too. Step out of line there, bitch and scream that you don't like the way they do things in Songhay and see what the fuck happens to you. That's because those folks have their own culture, THEIR way of doing shit. YOU don't have a right to go there and criticize, or complain, or demand they change their fucking culture. They have a right to keep their culture and maintain their own ways of doing things. Fuck what the pussy cuck foreigners want.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Koltar on May 18, 2021, 12:28:47 AM
Hamas are terrorists and acting like Terrorists.

Israel wants ALL of the rocket atracks to stop and they are just defending themselves.

There is no 'occupation' related to the so-called 'Palestinians'. The land is Israel and has been and always will be Israel. Every time they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries they tended to gain territory that was oroginally supposed to be their's in the first place.
"Palestinian" since the 1960s is more of a political designation and not really a 'nation' or ethnic group.

This makes me wonder if we're disagreeing about some basic facts here.

When I refer to Palestinians and Palestine, I have meant the ~5 million inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza, not including Israeli settlers in the West Bank. At present, they are citizens of no country. They have been living on the same land for many generations, since before 1947. In the original 1947 U.N. Partition Plan, the West Bank and Gaza were supposed to be an independent country from Israel. However, that land has been claimed by Israeli since it was seized in the 1967 war.

At present, Palestine is not a sovereign country in that the Israeli military controls all its borders, including internal borders within the West Bank that divide it into six regions. Since 1995, Palestinians can have passports issued by the local government (the Palestinian Authority) - but Israel can override those passports, and they can only leave or travel between regions with Israeli permission. The Israelis do not permit airports within Palestine, and there is a naval blockade that stops all boats from leaving or entering Gaza, and all land crossings have Israeli military checkpoints.

There are roughly two ways to view this:

(1) That land is Israel, and thus the Palestinians are Israelis with no citizenship or rights.

(2) That land is Palestine, and Israel has been militarily occupying it.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 02:04:25 PM
   I guess my question is this, can all these things be true:

  1.  That Israel is not in any way a state of inclusive and welcoming immigration or paths to citizenship (no idea if ethnostate is the right word here, but your parents who have never set foot in Israel can give you the right to immigrate there and be a citizen despite you never setting foot in Temple your entire life).  While at the same time having strict immigration with regard to non Jewish immigrants, walls, borders and policed checkpoints as to who can enter the nation.  Call it what you like.

  2.  Israel acts and reacts in as moderated a method as is possible given the circumstances.  They know they live with an existential threat, but they do not simply destroy everyone.  They react as measured as possible.

   3.  Hamas is a terror organization, they historically do things we would call black and white evil.  If they get eradicated the world is likely better off. 

   4.  Israel is more in the "right" in this dispute and has full rights to defend lives and remove threats.
   
   5.  I have no dog in the fight, I feel Israel is right, but I offer zero aid, do not want any money from country going there, and certainly do not want to hear every politician harping propaganda to get public sentiment behind sending my son over there down the road.  No thank you.

A nuanced take?  WTF, get out of here!   :P

But yeah feels like the jist of it to me.  Point 5 really gets my craw.  Guys with guns will force me to pay jizya whether I want to or not and I'm not allowed to threaten back.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 02:17:20 PM

Quote from: Koltar on May 18, 2021, 12:28:47 AM
Hamas are terrorists and acting like Terrorists.

Israel wants ALL of the rocket atracks to stop and they are just defending themselves.

There is no 'occupation' related to the so-called 'Palestinians'. The land is Israel and has been and always will be Israel. Every time they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries they tended to gain territory that was oroginally supposed to be their's in the first place.
"Palestinian" since the 1960s is more of a political designation and not really a 'nation' or ethnic group.

This makes me wonder if we're disagreeing about some basic facts here.

When I refer to Palestinians and Palestine, I have meant the ~5 million inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza, not including Israeli settlers in the West Bank. At present, they are citizens of no country. They have been living on the same land for many generations, since before 1947. In the original 1947 U.N. Partition Plan, the West Bank and Gaza were supposed to be an independent country from Israel. However, that land has been claimed by Israeli since it was seized in the 1967 war.

At present, Palestine is not a sovereign country in that the Israeli military controls all its borders, including internal borders within the West Bank that divide it into six regions. Since 1995, Palestinians can have passports issued by the local government (the Palestinian Authority) - but Israel can override those passports, and they can only leave or travel between regions with Israeli permission. The Israelis do not permit airports within Palestine, and there is a naval blockade that stops all boats from leaving or entering Gaza, and all land crossings have Israeli military checkpoints.

There are roughly two ways to view this:

(1) That land is Israel, and thus the Palestinians are Israelis with no citizenship or rights.

(2) That land is Palestine, and Israel has been militarily occupying it.

I think another view that a lot of people tend to hold, is that the land is an arbitrary chunk of dirt, and two groups are fighting over it because they say they were there first. Sometimes Yahweh/Allah gets dragged into the fight as some kind of final arbiter, but that just puts another level of "Nuh-uh!" on the cake.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 01:29:43 PM

  https://lawoffice.org.il/en/obtaining-citizenship-in-israel/

  Then maybe you will want to explain it to the law firm here that handles immigration to Israel.    Which hell I do not know, if we are splitting hairs over words here?  There is most definitely an extreme bias to a specific faith and ethnicity, if the right to return can be passed down from a parent, with no need for the child to prove they follow a faith...is that not ethnic?  You also make a statement as if Muslims or christians make up a large percentage of citizens.  Muslims make up a sizable percentage of permanent residents, and can vote in local elections, NOT national or parliamentary elections.  Your link gives no hard numbers as to how many actual citizens are among the muslim population, and even goes on to clarify MANY of the arab residents are permenant residents and not citizens.  I miss hard numbers in that link, I do see the word many used twice, once to say many of the Arab residents are citizens, and then again later to say many of the Arab residents are not citizens....     Or if the standards to achieve citizenship are anywhere near the same, especially for an immigrant.   What percentage of Muslim immigrants with no family that has ever lived in Israel are able to become citizens?

I'll address your concerns, because they are valid, though I think you have something wrong: there is a sizeable (20%) non-Jewish minority in Israel that has full citizenship rights. There are Muslim and Christian Arabs that are in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court... etc. If you were talking about permanent residents, then yes, it is very difficult for non-Jewish permanent residents to become citizens.

In terms of ethno-state, yes, Israel has been set up as a Jewish ethno-state, and for good historical reasons: it is intended to be a life raft state for Jews in the Diaspora, regardless of their level of religious observance, in case they are in danger and need to flee their homes. Had there been a sovereign Jewish state in 1939, we would not have to talk about the necessity for this. But the same goes for 1948-1972, when Israel served as a life raft state for Jews fleeing from persecution from the Muslim world. Or when they fled from the USSR before its dissolution. Or when they fled from Yemen over the past five years due to targeting and persecution. Or France, and the UK, today, for similar reasons.

Maybe in some ideal world there would not be a need for a Jewish state where Jews do not have to protect their sovereignty as Jews to ensure that they are not reduced to a persecuted minority dependent on the temporary--if well-meaning--tolerance of others. But this is not that timeline.

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 02:10:57 PM
Greetings!

Israel is more or less an "Ethno-State". That's right, since the ancient times of the Patriarch Abraham.

So what? Israel, like any other nation state, can organize itself as IT SEES FIT. It doesn't need a trainload of pussies approval.

Japan, also, is more or less an "Ethno-State". Good for them. You aren't Jewish, or Japanese, you don't have the same kind of rights there as Jewish or Japanese people do. Again, too fucking bad. Nation states have a right to organize themselves as they see fit.

Probably most of the world are ethno states. Nothing unusual about that at all. Most people from group A prefer living with people from group A, and don't like being invaded and fucked with by people from other groups. It's that simple. Lots of countries in Africa are largely ethno states, too. Step out of line there, bitch and scream that you don't like the way they do things in Songhay and see what the fuck happens to you. That's because those folks have their own culture, THEIR way of doing shit. YOU don't have a right to go there and criticize, or complain, or demand they change their fucking culture. They have a right to keep their culture and maintain their own ways of doing things. Fuck what the pussy cuck foreigners want.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   I think the issue that gets to me though, is Japan is not sending mountains of cash to the USA to affect policy on immigration.  APAC is, and I am fine with an organization feeling there are policies that make for best outcomes for a nation, but it seems their policy choices differ massively based on latitude and longitude.  They push an agenda of much more open borders, no walls, and easy path to citizenship in the USA, and push the word for word opposite in Israel.  Boiling down to "restricted immigrating USA = ETHNOSTATE...ETHNOSTATE BAD!!!" while as mentioned, arguing for and supporting financially a COMPLETELY opposite position for Israel.  I would say there are quite a few politicians in the USA who have similar views, both R and D.  I think the biggest issues the democrats have right now is they have gone so far left, they forgot to tell the newbs you sway back way right on policy for Israel.

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 02:10:57 PM
So what? Israel, like any other nation state, can organize itself as IT SEES FIT. It doesn't need a trainload of pussies approval.

Japan, also, is more or less an "Ethno-State". Good for them. You aren't Jewish, or Japanese, you don't have the same kind of rights there as Jewish or Japanese people do. Again, too fucking bad. Nation states have a right to organize themselves as they see fit.

Probably most of the world are ethno states. Nothing unusual about that at all. Most people from group A prefer living with people from group A, and don't like being invaded and fucked with by people from other groups. It's that simple.

Fuck you, SHARK! Seriously, this is goddamn shit. No, the Japanese do *not* have a right to be goddamn racist assholes.

My father grew up under Japanese rule in what is now North Korea. When he went to grade school, he had to speak Japanese instead of his native Korean, because the Japanese wanted all Korean children to learn Japanese and erase Korean culture. If students spoke Korean at school, they would be beaten. After a generation of rule, some Koreans came voluntarily to Japan with promises of education and/or work. My grandfather studied dairy farming in Japan. But the Japanese also forcibly brought in hundreds of thousands of Koreans into forced work including forced prostitution.

Today, there are still hundreds of thousands of people of Korean or mixed-Korean descent living in Japan. Many have no citizenship despite having been born in Japan and speaking no Korean. Even those with technical Japanese citizenship are second-class citizens who have to pass as Japanese or suffer discrimination.

I would say this is *not* just fine. Racism and ethnostates are bullshit. If a country wants to limit immigration, that's one thing. But they should treat the people born there equally regardless of their race or ethnicity.

You have some of your facts wrong:

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 02:17:20 PM
When I refer to Palestinians and Palestine, I have meant the ~5 million inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza, not including Israeli settlers in the West Bank. At present, they are citizens of no country. They have been living on the same land for many generations, since before 1947.

A minority of the Palestinians had lived on the land for "many generations", but the majority were migrant workers and their descendants. This is even referred to by Winston Churchill, in Parliament, when he said "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population." (Hansard, May 23, 1939)

This is further attested to by British Mandate figures that put the immigration numbers of Arabs to Jerusalem from outside Mandatory Palestine between 1922 and 1931 as exceeding Jewish immigration to Jerusalem (Martin Gilbert, Historical Atlas of Jerusalem, p.77). Jerusalem enjoyed a 2/3 majority Jewish population by 1948, before the Jordanians ethnically cleansed the Old City and East Jerusalem (including the Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood) of its Jews.

Quote
In the original 1947 U.N. Partition Plan, the West Bank and Gaza were supposed to be an independent country from Israel. However, that land has been claimed by Israeli since it was seized in the 1967 war.

The 1947 Partition Plan was rejected by the Arabs who then invaded when the British left in May 1948. Surely you agree that when one party to a contract refuses to sign the contract, the other party should not be forced to hold by the contract?

Quote...a naval blockade that stops all boats from leaving or entering Gaza, and all land crossings have Israeli military checkpoints.

Yes, the naval blockade and checkpoints that exist to prevent even more Iranian arms and military supplies to enter the Gaza Strip. Even during the current conflict, Israel is still sending humanitarian supplies into Gaza, even when those supply convoys are fired upon by Hamas rockets.

QuoteThere are roughly two ways to view this:

(1) That land is Israel, and thus the Palestinians are Israelis with no citizenship or rights.

(2) That land is Palestine, and Israel has been militarily occupying it.

"Roughly two" sounds like you are oh-so-reluctantly forcing a false dilemma upon us.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 18, 2021, 02:45:53 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 01:29:43 PM

  https://lawoffice.org.il/en/obtaining-citizenship-in-israel/

  Then maybe you will want to explain it to the law firm here that handles immigration to Israel.    Which hell I do not know, if we are splitting hairs over words here?  There is most definitely an extreme bias to a specific faith and ethnicity, if the right to return can be passed down from a parent, with no need for the child to prove they follow a faith...is that not ethnic?  You also make a statement as if Muslims or christians make up a large percentage of citizens.  Muslims make up a sizable percentage of permanent residents, and can vote in local elections, NOT national or parliamentary elections.  Your link gives no hard numbers as to how many actual citizens are among the muslim population, and even goes on to clarify MANY of the arab residents are permenant residents and not citizens.  I miss hard numbers in that link, I do see the word many used twice, once to say many of the Arab residents are citizens, and then again later to say many of the Arab residents are not citizens....     Or if the standards to achieve citizenship are anywhere near the same, especially for an immigrant.   What percentage of Muslim immigrants with no family that has ever lived in Israel are able to become citizens?

I'll address your concerns, because they are valid, though I think you have something wrong: there is a sizeable (20%) non-Jewish minority in Israel that has full citizenship rights. There are Muslim and Christian Arabs that are in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court... etc. If you were talking about permanent residents, then yes, it is very difficult for non-Jewish permanent residents to become citizens.

In terms of ethno-state, yes, Israel has been set up as a Jewish ethno-state, and for good historical reasons: it is intended to be a life raft state for Jews in the Diaspora, regardless of their level of religious observance, in case they are in danger and need to flee their homes. Had there been a sovereign Jewish state in 1939, we would not have to talk about the necessity for this. But the same goes for 1948-1972, when Israel served as a life raft state for Jews fleeing from persecution from the Muslim world. Or when they fled from the USSR before its dissolution. Or when they fled from Yemen over the past five years due to targeting and persecution. Or France, and the UK, today, for similar reasons.

Maybe in some ideal world there would not be a need for a Jewish state where Jews do not have to protect their sovereignty as Jews to ensure that they are not reduced to a persecuted minority dependent on the temporary--if well-meaning--tolerance of others. But this is not that timeline.

    I see reference to 20 percent and as mentioned I do not doubt it, in the link he gave it had no hard numbers and in many places the number of Arabs is mentioned but there was a floating number (from 17-20 percent as you mentioned) as to how many of those people were citizens.  I have no issue with this, my questions around citizen ship are around new immigrants.  I personally think tight control of borders, illegal immigration, and who becomes a citizen is smart.  I just take exception to a push from folks (as I have mentioned APAC) taking a very strong hand in pushing policy agendas for the USA that are literally the opposite of what the exact same organization pushes in Israel.    Because these same people imply what is destructive in one culture (Israel), is just what has to happen in another culture (the USA).    I guess if diversity is so great, why does a particular organization pushing it so heavily, feel it is so destructive elsewhere? 

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 03:02:57 PM
    I see reference to 20 percent and as mentioned I do not doubt it, in the link he gave it had no hard numbers and in many places the number of Arabs is mentioned but there was a floating number (from 17-20 percent as you mentioned) as to how many of those people were citizens.  I have no issue with this, my questions around citizen ship are around new immigrants.  I personally think tight control of borders, illegal immigration, and who becomes a citizen is smart.  I just take exception to a push from folks (as I have mentioned APAC) taking a very strong hand in pushing policy agendas for the USA that are literally the opposite of what the exact same organization pushes in Israel.    Because these same people imply what is destructive in one culture (Israel), is just what has to happen in another culture (the USA).    I guess if diversity is so great, why does a particular organization pushing it so heavily, feel it is so destructive elsewhere?

Whenever I've seen the ~20% figure used, it refers exclusively to Israelis who are not Jewish. Non-citizen residents of the West Bank (Gaza has not been under Israeli rule since 2005) are not counted. Why would they be counted? They're under the auspices of the Palestinian Authority.

As for AIPAC and its politics, I can't answer that, as I'm not American. But I can tell you that watching from Canada, the politics surrounding illegal immigration into the USA are, in a word, fucked up.  I know that's two words. :)

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 02:58:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 02:10:57 PM
So what? Israel, like any other nation state, can organize itself as IT SEES FIT. It doesn't need a trainload of pussies approval.

Japan, also, is more or less an "Ethno-State". Good for them. You aren't Jewish, or Japanese, you don't have the same kind of rights there as Jewish or Japanese people do. Again, too fucking bad. Nation states have a right to organize themselves as they see fit.

Probably most of the world are ethno states. Nothing unusual about that at all. Most people from group A prefer living with people from group A, and don't like being invaded and fucked with by people from other groups. It's that simple.

Fuck you, SHARK! Seriously, this is goddamn shit. No, the Japanese do *not* have a right to be goddamn racist assholes.

My father grew up under Japanese rule in what is now North Korea. When he went to grade school, he had to speak Japanese instead of his native Korean, because the Japanese wanted all Korean children to learn Japanese and erase Korean culture. If students spoke Korean at school, they would be beaten. After a generation of rule, some Koreans came voluntarily to Japan with promises of education and/or work. My grandfather studied dairy farming in Japan. But the Japanese also forcibly brought in hundreds of thousands of Koreans into forced work including forced prostitution.

Today, there are still hundreds of thousands of people of Korean or mixed-Korean descent living in Japan. Many have no citizenship despite having been born in Japan and speaking no Korean. Even those with technical Japanese citizenship are second-class citizens who have to pass as Japanese or suffer discrimination.

I would say this is *not* just fine. Racism and ethnostates are bullshit. If a country wants to limit immigration, that's one thing. But they should treat the people born there equally regardless of their race or ethnicity.

  Losing fights, or capitulating to Tyranny has a cost associated with it. 

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 02:58:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 02:10:57 PM
So what? Israel, like any other nation state, can organize itself as IT SEES FIT. It doesn't need a trainload of pussies approval.

Japan, also, is more or less an "Ethno-State". Good for them. You aren't Jewish, or Japanese, you don't have the same kind of rights there as Jewish or Japanese people do. Again, too fucking bad. Nation states have a right to organize themselves as they see fit.

Probably most of the world are ethno states. Nothing unusual about that at all. Most people from group A prefer living with people from group A, and don't like being invaded and fucked with by people from other groups. It's that simple.

Fuck you, SHARK! Seriously, this is goddamn shit. No, the Japanese do *not* have a right to be goddamn racist assholes.

My father grew up under Japanese rule in what is now North Korea. When he went to grade school, he had to speak Japanese instead of his native Korean, because the Japanese wanted all Korean children to learn Japanese and erase Korean culture. If students spoke Korean at school, they would be beaten. After a generation of rule, some Koreans came voluntarily to Japan with promises of education and/or work. My grandfather studied dairy farming in Japan. But the Japanese also forcibly brought in hundreds of thousands of Koreans into forced work including forced prostitution.

Today, there are still hundreds of thousands of people of Korean or mixed-Korean descent living in Japan. Many have no citizenship despite having been born in Japan and speaking no Korean. Even those with technical Japanese citizenship are second-class citizens who have to pass as Japanese or suffer discrimination.

I would say this is *not* just fine. Racism and ethnostates are bullshit. If a country wants to limit immigration, that's one thing. But they should treat the people born there equally regardless of their race or ethnicity.

Greetings!

Jhkim, the Japanese have a right to run THEIR country however they see fit.

You don't like it? Fucking pack your shit and leave.

Nation states everywhere run their societies the way THEY want. That doesn't mean you--or I--or anyone else has to like it, or agree with it, or approve of it. That doesn't change the fact that they are going to organize their nation state as THEY see fit.

Every country is different, and DIVERSE! We, being good multiculturalists, need to respect different countries for being different, Jhkim.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

More to the point: all citizens in theory should be equal in the eyes of the law. That's one of those building blocks of modern society that has been steadily eroded, especially by identity politics.

Now, I'm sorry Japan doesn't do things the way you like, jhkim. Perhaps you should cancel them. Or raise an army to teach them their error of their ways.

Of course, that might be imperialism.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 18, 2021, 02:45:53 PM

I'll address your concerns, because they are valid, though I think you have something wrong: there is a sizeable (20%) non-Jewish minority in Israel that has full citizenship rights. There are Muslim and Christian Arabs that are in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court... etc. If you were talking about permanent residents, then yes, it is very difficult for non-Jewish permanent residents to become citizens.

The existence of Arabs with Israeli citizenship always seems to be the canned response when someone asks why PALESTINIAN REFUGEESS aren't afforded the same "Right of Return" and citizenship as Jews from Brooklyn. It's a dodge.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 18, 2021, 02:45:53 PM
In terms of ethno-state, yes, Israel has been set up as a Jewish ethno-state, and for good historical reasons: it is intended to be a life raft state for Jews in the Diaspora, regardless of their level of religious observance, in case they are in danger and need to flee their homes. Had there been a sovereign Jewish state in 1939, we would not have to talk about the necessity for this.

It sounds to me like you're proposing that an ethnic group is better off, safer, more secure, when it controls a state for its own benefit. But you also seem to apply that this only really applies to Jews because Holocaust. What if White farmers in South Africa are in danger, do they get a country of their own to flee to?

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 18, 2021, 02:45:53 PM
But the same goes for 1948-1972, when Israel served as a life raft state for Jews fleeing from persecution from the Muslim world.

The hostility Jews undoubtedly felt in the Muslim world at that time were the direct result of the events surrounding Israel and its wars with Muslims. You're using problems directly caused by the foundation and expansion of Israel as a justification for the existence of Israel. I'll give you credit for chutzpah if nothing else.   

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 18, 2021, 02:45:53 PM
Or when they fled from the USSR before its dissolution.

Rats fleeing a sinking ship. Which country did ethnic Russians have to flee to when the USSR began to fall apart?

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 18, 2021, 02:45:53 PM
Or when they fled from Yemen over the past five years due to targeting and persecution. Or France, and the UK, today, for similar reasons.

Yes, the inability of Israel to get along with its neighbors and respect the rights of Palestinians, imagine that.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 18, 2021, 02:45:53 PM
Maybe in some ideal world there would not be a need for a Jewish state where Jews do not have to protect their sovereignty as Jews to ensure that they are not reduced to a persecuted minority dependent on the temporary--if well-meaning--tolerance of others. But this is not that timeline.

Do I have a White American state to protect my sovereignty as a White American to ensure I'm not reduced to a persecuted minority?

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 02:58:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 02:10:57 PM
So what? Israel, like any other nation state, can organize itself as IT SEES FIT. It doesn't need a trainload of pussies approval.

Japan, also, is more or less an "Ethno-State". Good for them. You aren't Jewish, or Japanese, you don't have the same kind of rights there as Jewish or Japanese people do. Again, too fucking bad. Nation states have a right to organize themselves as they see fit.

Probably most of the world are ethno states. Nothing unusual about that at all. Most people from group A prefer living with people from group A, and don't like being invaded and fucked with by people from other groups. It's that simple.

Fuck you, SHARK! Seriously, this is goddamn shit. No, the Japanese do *not* have a right to be goddamn racist assholes.

My father grew up under Japanese rule in what is now North Korea. When he went to grade school, he had to speak Japanese instead of his native Korean, because the Japanese wanted all Korean children to learn Japanese and erase Korean culture. If students spoke Korean at school, they would be beaten. After a generation of rule, some Koreans came voluntarily to Japan with promises of education and/or work. My grandfather studied dairy farming in Japan. But the Japanese also forcibly brought in hundreds of thousands of Koreans into forced work including forced prostitution.

Today, there are still hundreds of thousands of people of Korean or mixed-Korean descent living in Japan. Many have no citizenship despite having been born in Japan and speaking no Korean. Even those with technical Japanese citizenship are second-class citizens who have to pass as Japanese or suffer discrimination.

I would say this is *not* just fine. Racism and ethnostates are bullshit. If a country wants to limit immigration, that's one thing. But they should treat the people born there equally regardless of their race or ethnicity.

Greetings!

Oh, and Jhkim? FUCK YOU, TOO!

Where did I say that Japan was justified in conquering Korea, slaughtering Koreans, and fucking the Korean women nine ways to Sunday, and forcing Korean women into bukkake strumpets?

I never said that, or even alluded to it. Stop being so histrionic and LOOKING for someway, somehow, to be offended.

Normal nations, pretty much everywhere, are ethno-states. Whether they are or not, however, doesn't mean that they are not distinct cultures and their own sovereign nations. They have the right to organize their society and run themselves as they see fit. This idea, by the way, is also endorsed by the sacred and holy body of the UN, which declares that all nation states have the sacrosanct right to self-determination.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Again Israel has the right to defend itself fro BOTH rocket attacks and tarrorist assaults.

As for the so-called 'Palestinians' - if they would stop breaking treaties and promises, agree that Israel has a right to exist, and generally start acting civil - then they might start getting favorable results. .

- Ed C.

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 04:15:10 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 02:58:17 PM
I would say this is *not* just fine. Racism and ethnostates are bullshit. If a country wants to limit immigration, that's one thing. But they should treat the people born there equally regardless of their race or ethnicity.

Oh, and Jhkim? FUCK YOU, TOO!

Where did I say that Japan was justified in conquering Korea, slaughtering Koreans, and fucking the Korean women nine ways to Sunday, and forcing Korean women into bukkake strumpets?

I never said that, or even alluded to it. Stop being so histrionic and LOOKING for someway, somehow, to be offended.

Normal nations, pretty much everywhere, are ethno-states. Whether they are or not, however, doesn't mean that they are not distinct cultures and their own sovereign nations. They have the right to organize their society and run themselves as they see fit. This idea, by the way, is also endorsed by the sacred and holy body of the UN, which declares that all nation states have the sacrosanct right to self-determination.

There is a high bar to militarily intervene in other countries, but it's not sacrosanct - and even if there was, that doesn't mean it's morally right and I can't complain. The U.N. can and has intervened when countries are engaged in gross human rights abuses like the massacres in Rwanda or Bosnia. To be specific, what you said was:

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 02:10:57 PM
That's because those folks have their own culture, THEIR way of doing shit. YOU don't have a right to go there and criticize, or complain, or demand they change their fucking culture. They have a right to keep their culture and maintain their own ways of doing things. Fuck what the pussy cuck foreigners want.

I consider this weak-ass moral relativism.

As far as what foods to eat or what languages to speak - that's cultural diversity and I don't judge. But as far as not slaughtering your own people, or other basic human rights -- that's not just an opinion or part of cultural diversity.

You yourself have made plenty of judgements of foreign countries, if they chose communist governments, for example.

Quote from: Koltar on May 18, 2021, 04:36:23 PM
Again Israel has the right to defend itself fro BOTH rocket attacks and tarrorist assaults.

As for the so-called 'Palestinians' - if they would stop breaking treaties and promises, agree that Israel has a right to exist, and generally start acting civil - then they might start getting favoable results.

Here's my question for you --

Suppose the Arab countries were to attempt a military naval and air blockade of Israel, blocking all of its shipping and trade. Would Israel be justified in counter-attacks on those countries?

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 17, 2021, 09:38:24 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2021, 08:22:58 PM
Heh. *Most* of the world loves having America as the "World Police." We are THE EMPIRE, like ancient Rome, and everyone knows it.

And how does that benefit us?

You get paid in USD.

Youre welcome.

On the two-state solution; Bill Clinton has said numerous times that it was Arafat who torpedoed it in the last stages of negotiations around 2000. Clinton felt that Arafat was sort of married to the feeling of victimhood, so Arafat kept demanding concessions from Israel that everyone knew they could not agree to.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 02:58:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 02:10:57 PM
So what? Israel, like any other nation state, can organize itself as IT SEES FIT. It doesn't need a trainload of pussies approval.

Japan, also, is more or less an "Ethno-State". Good for them. You aren't Jewish, or Japanese, you don't have the same kind of rights there as Jewish or Japanese people do. Again, too fucking bad. Nation states have a right to organize themselves as they see fit.

Probably most of the world are ethno states. Nothing unusual about that at all. Most people from group A prefer living with people from group A, and don't like being invaded and fucked with by people from other groups. It's that simple.

Fuck you, SHARK! Seriously, this is goddamn shit. No, the Japanese do *not* have a right to be goddamn racist assholes.

My father grew up under Japanese rule in what is now North Korea. When he went to grade school, he had to speak Japanese instead of his native Korean, because the Japanese wanted all Korean children to learn Japanese and erase Korean culture. If students spoke Korean at school, they would be beaten. After a generation of rule, some Koreans came voluntarily to Japan with promises of education and/or work. My grandfather studied dairy farming in Japan. But the Japanese also forcibly brought in hundreds of thousands of Koreans into forced work including forced prostitution.

Today, there are still hundreds of thousands of people of Korean or mixed-Korean descent living in Japan. Many have no citizenship despite having been born in Japan and speaking no Korean. Even those with technical Japanese citizenship are second-class citizens who have to pass as Japanese or suffer discrimination.

I would say this is *not* just fine. Racism and ethnostates are bullshit. If a country wants to limit immigration, that's one thing. But they should treat the people born there equally regardless of their race or ethnicity.

You were just complaining about the US being World Police yesterday and yet no appreciation of the US rescuing your Fathers people from first the Imperial Japanese army and then your own people who were trying to institute the worst ethno-state existing in 2021?

Fuck you, SHARK indeed.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 04:37:47 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 04:15:10 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 02:58:17 PM
I would say this is *not* just fine. Racism and ethnostates are bullshit. If a country wants to limit immigration, that's one thing. But they should treat the people born there equally regardless of their race or ethnicity.

Oh, and Jhkim? FUCK YOU, TOO!

Where did I say that Japan was justified in conquering Korea, slaughtering Koreans, and fucking the Korean women nine ways to Sunday, and forcing Korean women into bukkake strumpets?

I never said that, or even alluded to it. Stop being so histrionic and LOOKING for someway, somehow, to be offended.

Normal nations, pretty much everywhere, are ethno-states. Whether they are or not, however, doesn't mean that they are not distinct cultures and their own sovereign nations. They have the right to organize their society and run themselves as they see fit. This idea, by the way, is also endorsed by the sacred and holy body of the UN, which declares that all nation states have the sacrosanct right to self-determination.

There is a high bar to militarily intervene in other countries, but it's not sacrosanct - and even if there was, that doesn't mean it's morally right and I can't complain. The U.N. can and has intervened when countries are engaged in gross human rights abuses like the massacres in Rwanda or Bosnia. To be specific, what you said was:

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 02:10:57 PM
That's because those folks have their own culture, THEIR way of doing shit. YOU don't have a right to go there and criticize, or complain, or demand they change their fucking culture. They have a right to keep their culture and maintain their own ways of doing things. Fuck what the pussy cuck foreigners want.

I consider this weak-ass moral relativism.

As far as what foods to eat or what languages to speak - that's cultural diversity and I don't judge. But as far as not slaughtering your own people, or other basic human rights -- that's not just an opinion or part of cultural diversity.

You yourself have made plenty of judgements of foreign countries, if they chose communist governments, for example.

Greetings!

That's right, Jhkim. I do judge various foreign countries. When they are Communists, or Nazis, or whatever the fuck they are--and threaten America? They need to be stomped on and crushed like a fucking cockroach.

That is also part of the deeper, ugly truth that modern urbane intelligentsia types don't like to face up to.

The whole grand, world stage with educated, suited up diplomats and bureaucrats and politicians--it's all really just a dressed-up playground, just like when people were kids in the sandbox. The larger, stronger countries say how things go. The smaller, weaker countries get to be either friends with the big dog, or they get made into a bitch.

6,000 years of history demonstrates patterns, and the deeper human nature. Human beings respond to STRENGTH, POWER, WEALTH, and PRESTIGE. That is what they respect, admire, obey, and seek to serve.

So, being a "Big Dog" that doesn't really want to get into a fight with every mutt on a street corner, it behooves us to respect other nations, and allow them the respect, freedom, and right to run their countries as they see fit. They stay in their yard, and everything is fine. By the way--we even did exactly this as a policy with Communist Vietnam, which, as the decades went by, they kept to themselves and came to the realization that Communist Utopia was a bunch of bullshit--and have steadily embraced changing their own country. So much so, in fact, that America and Vietnam have become friends again.

Anyways, back to Japan. I'm not surprised that Japan has some racist policies, even now. Lots of people, all over the world, are racist. You can't *force* multiculturalism. Multiculturalism only works when everyone involved does so voluntarily.

That is the way reality works, Jhkim. In many African nations, they wouldn't like you either. You would be treated like a fucking dog because you are the wrong skin colour, or don't speak the right language, or you aren't the right religion. That's just reality, Jhkim.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak on May 18, 2021, 04:58:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 02:58:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 02:10:57 PM
So what? Israel, like any other nation state, can organize itself as IT SEES FIT. It doesn't need a trainload of pussies approval.

Japan, also, is more or less an "Ethno-State". Good for them. You aren't Jewish, or Japanese, you don't have the same kind of rights there as Jewish or Japanese people do. Again, too fucking bad. Nation states have a right to organize themselves as they see fit.

Probably most of the world are ethno states. Nothing unusual about that at all. Most people from group A prefer living with people from group A, and don't like being invaded and fucked with by people from other groups. It's that simple.

Fuck you, SHARK! Seriously, this is goddamn shit. No, the Japanese do *not* have a right to be goddamn racist assholes.

My father grew up under Japanese rule in what is now North Korea. When he went to grade school, he had to speak Japanese instead of his native Korean, because the Japanese wanted all Korean children to learn Japanese and erase Korean culture. If students spoke Korean at school, they would be beaten. After a generation of rule, some Koreans came voluntarily to Japan with promises of education and/or work. My grandfather studied dairy farming in Japan. But the Japanese also forcibly brought in hundreds of thousands of Koreans into forced work including forced prostitution.

Today, there are still hundreds of thousands of people of Korean or mixed-Korean descent living in Japan. Many have no citizenship despite having been born in Japan and speaking no Korean. Even those with technical Japanese citizenship are second-class citizens who have to pass as Japanese or suffer discrimination.

I would say this is *not* just fine. Racism and ethnostates are bullshit. If a country wants to limit immigration, that's one thing. But they should treat the people born there equally regardless of their race or ethnicity.

You were just complaining about the US being World Police yesterday and yet no appreciation of the US rescuing your Fathers people from first the Imperial Japanese army and then your own people who were trying to institute the worst ethno-state existing in 2021?

Fuck you, SHARK indeed.

Greetings!

*Laughing*!! Don't you just love the irony, Shasarak?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Trond on May 18, 2021, 04:47:53 PM
On the two-state solution; Bill Clinton has said numerous times that it was Arafat who torpedoed it in the last stages of negotiations around 2000. Clinton felt that Arafat was sort of married to the feeling of victimhood, so Arafat kept demanding concessions from Israel that everyone knew they could not agree to.

I would agree that in 2000 under Clinton, it was Arafat who refused the offered treaty. On the other hand, the 2003 Road Map for Peace under Bush was refused by the Israelis.

The problem is that the 2000 proposal was little different for most Palestinians than the state of military occupation they live under today. If the Palestinians accepted, Israel would still control all of Palestinian airspace, and would retain swaths of territory throughout the West Bank, still controlling the borders and having Israeli-controlled routes that criss-crossed all through the West Bank. The Palestinians saw it as not giving them a sovereign country, but rather simply formalizing the reservation status they already had. And they would have had to give up all claims to get that.

http://www.passia.org/maps/view/37

Even if Arafat had accepted it, that would be pointless because the Palestinian people would not have accepted the deal.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 18, 2021, 04:58:41 PM
You were just complaining about the US being World Police yesterday and yet no appreciation of the US rescuing your Fathers people from first the Imperial Japanese army and then your own people who were trying to institute the worst ethno-state existing in 2021?

I specifically said that I supported WW2, the Korean War, and the first Gulf War. I was quite explicit about that - so I don't see how you can claim otherwise.

My problem was with most of our other military invasions - like Vietnam and Iraq - which resulted in bogged-down fighting trying to impose our will on other peoples with little popular support, and predictably resulted in quagmires that did little good and killed a lot of people.

Honestly crazy to me how much hot air is expended on this topic given:

(A). Most of us aren't involved
(B). Your opinion doesn't matter

Your non-representative government is going to steal your money and launder it through foreign wars and kickbacks to buddies in big corporations. Fix that first.

Quote from: Zelen on May 18, 2021, 05:20:39 PM
Honestly crazy to me how much hot air is expended on this topic given:

(A). Most of us aren't involved
(B). Your opinion doesn't matter

Your non-representative government is going to steal your money and launder it through foreign wars and kickbacks to buddies in big corporations. Fix that first.

You would have fit in really well in the 30s. Who cares about what the Nazis are doing in Germany, right?

Quote from: Mjollnir on May 18, 2021, 04:12:43 PM

Do I have a White American state to protect my sovereignty as a White American to ensure I'm not reduced to a persecuted minority?

I've read your posting on this thread.

I don't respond to feldhures for Stormfront and the Aryan Nations. Have a nice, short, life.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 05:09:43 PM

Quote from: Trond on May 18, 2021, 04:47:53 PM
On the two-state solution; Bill Clinton has said numerous times that it was Arafat who torpedoed it in the last stages of negotiations around 2000. Clinton felt that Arafat was sort of married to the feeling of victimhood, so Arafat kept demanding concessions from Israel that everyone knew they could not agree to.

I would agree that in 2000 under Clinton, it was Arafat who refused the offered treaty. On the other hand, the 2003 Road Map for Peace under Bush was refused by the Israelis.

The problem is that the 2000 proposal was little different for most Palestinians than the state of military occupation they live under today. If the Palestinians accepted, Israel would still control all of Palestinian airspace, and would retain swaths of territory throughout the West Bank, still controlling the borders and having Israeli-controlled routes that criss-crossed all through the West Bank. The Palestinians saw it as not giving them a sovereign country, but rather simply formalizing the reservation status they already had. And they would have had to give up all claims to get that.

http://www.passia.org/maps/view/37

Even if Arafat had accepted it, that would be pointless because the Palestinian people would not have accepted the deal.

According to Clinton, the main thing that went rotten was the fact that the Palestinians wanted huge amounts of refugees back where they were before the wars of the 60s and even 1940s. Israel could not allow it as it would make them less secure. Their position was that they had been attacked, and won, keeping some of the land it gained to secure areas like Jerusalem.

Quote from: Zelen on May 18, 2021, 05:20:39 PM
Honestly crazy to me how much hot air is expended on this topic given:

(A). Most of us aren't involved
(B). Your opinion doesn't matter

Your non-representative government is going to steal your money and launder it through foreign wars and kickbacks to buddies in big corporations. Fix that first.

More words have been typed on the topic of Star Wars versus Star Trek.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 05:15:56 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 18, 2021, 04:58:41 PM
You were just complaining about the US being World Police yesterday and yet no appreciation of the US rescuing your Fathers people from first the Imperial Japanese army and then your own people who were trying to institute the worst ethno-state existing in 2021?

I specifically said that I supported WW2, the Korean War, and the first Gulf War. I was quite explicit about that - so I don't see how you can claim otherwise.

My problem was with most of our other military invasions - like Vietnam and Iraq - which resulted in bogged-down fighting trying to impose our will on other peoples with little popular support, and predictably resulted in quagmires that did little good and killed a lot of people.

What is so special about Koreans that they deserved to be saved as opposed to Vietnamese and Iraqis?

Quote from: Zelen on May 18, 2021, 05:20:39 PM
Honestly crazy to me how much hot air is expended on this topic given:

(A). Most of us aren't involved
(B). Your opinion doesn't matter

Your non-representative government is going to steal your money and launder it through foreign wars and kickbacks to buddies in big corporations. Fix that first.

Do you have a better topic for us to expend our hot air on?

Quote from: Zelen on May 18, 2021, 05:20:39 PM
Honestly crazy to me how much hot air is expended on this topic given:

(A). Most of us aren't involved
(B). Your opinion doesn't matter

Your non-representative government is going to steal your money and launder it through foreign wars and kickbacks to buddies in big corporations. Fix that first.

Greetings!

Well, at least traditionally, Israel has been considered one of America's *Strategic Allies*--basically, hot-button nations like Germany, Britain, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and the Philippines, that any aggressor would tempt overwhelming American response in force, virtually immediately. That being the case, any kind of Israeli military action can presage a situation where US military forces are soon deployed, so whatever is going on over in Israel is typically of keen interest to most Americans.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak on May 18, 2021, 06:12:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 05:15:56 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 18, 2021, 04:58:41 PM
You were just complaining about the US being World Police yesterday and yet no appreciation of the US rescuing your Fathers people from first the Imperial Japanese army and then your own people who were trying to institute the worst ethno-state existing in 2021?

I specifically said that I supported WW2, the Korean War, and the first Gulf War. I was quite explicit about that - so I don't see how you can claim otherwise.

My problem was with most of our other military invasions - like Vietnam and Iraq - which resulted in bogged-down fighting trying to impose our will on other peoples with little popular support, and predictably resulted in quagmires that did little good and killed a lot of people.

What is so special about Koreans that they deserved to be saved as opposed to Vietnamese and Iraqis?

In the case of Korea, there was a clear one-sided military invasion from the North on the South. The same thing goes for Kuwait, with a one-sided invasion from Iraq. There was an immediate military invasion to respond to, and the U.N. had a clear vote opposing the action. The response was to undo that military invasion, sending the international signal that invading other countries isn't allowed -- but they did not ultimately create new countries or try to effect other change by military force.

In the case of Vietnam, it was already a quagmire from the first Indochina war by the French, that was unpopular with both the French and the Vietnamese. The Diem government was broadly seen as a colonial puppet, without broad popular support. And there was no singular invasion to oppose, but rather helping Diem suppress various uprisings.

In the case of the Iraq War, there wasn't even any external threat to the Iraqis -- it was a pre-emptive conquest and nation-building. Some people might say that we were saving the Iraqis from themselves, but that's more than a stretch. The other side building weapons isn't a valid reason to launch an invasion, and if normalized, it clearly results in constant escalation.

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 05:53:14 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 18, 2021, 05:20:39 PM
Honestly crazy to me how much hot air is expended on this topic given:

(A). Most of us aren't involved
(B). Your opinion doesn't matter

Your non-representative government is going to steal your money and launder it through foreign wars and kickbacks to buddies in big corporations. Fix that first.

You would have fit in really well in the 30s. Who cares about what the Nazis are doing in Germany, right?

Mostly, the Bund.

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 09:03:18 AM
How did I know "the usual suspects" would support terrorists because their leftist handlers told them to do so...do you retards EVER use your own fucking brains or do you merely parrot MSM/CCP narratives?

Greetings!

*Laughing*!! "The Usual Suspects!" ;D Of course, Brad, it isn't really surprising after all, is it?

The cock-sucking Marxists have allied themselves with the Muslims, so Christians and Jews are evil and racist and oppressive, and must be destroyed! ;D

I smile inside, though. In the future, when the Muslims take over many of these weak, cock-sucking Marxist nations, you know who they are going to make sure they throw into the woodchippers?

Besides the Christians and Jews, the Muslims will make a priority of going after the Leftists. The Marxists. The gays. The trans. The feminists. The outspoken "rebels". The intelligentsia, screaming about their "rights". The Liberal Journalists demanding to be treated like they are special. The atheists. The Unitarians. All of the rainbow misfits.

All of them are going to be tortured, and burned, and thrown into woodchippers. All while mobs of chanting, screaming Muslims shriek in triumph and joy!

But somehow, the modern Marxists don't believe that is going to happen to them.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 06:53:12 PM

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 09:03:18 AM
How did I know "the usual suspects" would support terrorists because their leftist handlers told them to do so...do you retards EVER use your own fucking brains or do you merely parrot MSM/CCP narratives?

I smile inside, though. In the future, when the Muslims take over many of these weak, cock-sucking Marxist nations, you know who they are going to make sure they throw into the woodchippers?

SHARK confirms inevitable victory of Muslim supremacy in United States, volunteers for woodchipper. shocking turnabout, what an upset

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 08:34:34 AM
   Or did 2008 call and request their stats back?   How current is that statistic?

It was argued in 2008 and it'd be argued now. But suffice to say that the US uses resources far in excess of its share of world population. This is called being a First World country - France, Australia etc do that, too. That's what gives us our comfortable lifestyles. And that's also why we need militaries far in excess of our share of world population - to protect and/or acquire those resources.

Take away the lefties' mobile phones, TVs, tofu burgers and airconditioning and make them walk to work for a couple of weeks, and see what they think about military spending then.

Quote from: RatmanI think another view that a lot of people tend to hold, is that the land is an arbitrary chunk of dirt, and two groups are fighting over it because they say they were there first.

My favourite example of the madness of the place is the immovable ladder (https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/immovable-ladder-church-holy-sepulchre). There's a church which is run by no less than six different Christian denominations. One sect disputes the claim over who controls part of the roof, and they put a monk there every day sitting to stake the claim. One day it was hot and he moved the chair eight inches, and this was taken as a challenge to the status quo, and a massive brawl started between all the monks. Now this was ladder was whacked up there some time before 1728, and nobody knows who put it there, and nobody dares move the fucking thing lest it provoke a massive riot.

So really, you could deport every last Jew and Moslem from Israel and the PA and just leave Christians there, and within six months they'd be butchering each-other horribly. Or you could make it just Catholics or something, and they'd split into rival sects and butcher each-other horribly.

The Holy Land makes men mad.

Quote from: jhkimI specifically said that I supported WW2, the Korean War, and the first Gulf War. I was quite explicit about that - so I don't see how you can claim otherwise.

My problem was with most of our other military invasions - like Vietnam and Iraq -

So your problem is not really with wars, it's losing wars. Well, most countries feel that way :)

Anyhow. I would suggest that in a region of the world where people can't agree on what to do with a single ladder in three centuries, there is probably always going to be violent conflict. And who we blame for this conflict is more a reflection of our own prejudices and biases than reality.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 01:29:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 18, 2021, 11:54:57 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:07:15 AM
  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Such ethnostate
much wow

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546)

I'll also note there are Jews living in Israel from other different ethnicities, like from Russia, Turkey, etc.

Not to mention the Muslims and Christians that enjoy ciizenship and full rights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel)

So it's not even a teocracy

Care to try again?

  https://lawoffice.org.il/en/obtaining-citizenship-in-israel/

  Then maybe you will want to explain it to the law firm here that handles immigration to Israel.    Which hell I do not know, if we are splitting hairs over words here?  There is most definitely an extreme bias to a specific faith and ethnicity, if the right to return can be passed down from a parent, with no need for the child to prove they follow a faith...is that not ethnic?  You also make a statement as if Muslims or christians make up a large percentage of citizens.  Muslims make up a sizable percentage of permanent residents, and can vote in local elections, NOT national or parliamentary elections.  Your link gives no hard numbers as to how many actual citizens are among the muslim population, and even goes on to clarify MANY of the arab residents are permenant residents and not citizens.  I miss hard numbers in that link, I do see the word many used twice, once to say many of the Arab residents are citizens, and then again later to say many of the Arab residents are not citizens....     Or if the standards to achieve citizenship are anywhere near the same, especially for an immigrant.   What percentage of Muslim immigrants with no family that has ever lived in Israel are able to become citizens?

Faith, yes, it's supossed to be the home of the Jews, but there's a funny thing about religions...

You can convert into one.

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 11:59:25 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 18, 2021, 11:56:55 AM
Such ethnostate
much wow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Immigration_and_country_of_birth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Immigration_and_country_of_birth)

Care to try again?

Pretty sure most of them aren't actual Australian citizens.

Pretty sure you don't know shit about it, I don't and will not make bets... But an ethnostate that allows immigration from several different ethnicities other than their own?

Not to mention the Aboriginal population that does have citizenship and it's very much not white.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 18, 2021, 08:32:09 PM

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 11:59:25 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 18, 2021, 11:56:55 AM
Such ethnostate
much wow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Immigration_and_country_of_birth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Immigration_and_country_of_birth)

Care to try again?

Pretty sure most of them aren't actual Australian citizens.

Pretty sure you don't know shit about it, I don't and will not make bets... But an ethnostate that allows immigration from several different ethnicities other than their own?

Not to mention the Aboriginal population that does have citizenship and it's very much not white.

To reiterate, I'm pretty sure most of them aren't Australian citizens...are you dense?

Australia has 25.4 million people. 20.7 million of them are adults. 16.8 million of them are registered voters, which is 96.3% of all those eligible to vote, ie adult citizens not currently serving more than 2 years in prison. So over 80% of Australian adults are citizens. The rest are mostly permanent residents, which for most people is about a five year pathway to citizenship.

Last year over 200,000 people acquired citizenship. 38,000 of them were from India, 25,000 from the UK, 15,000 from China, 13,000 from the Philippines,  9k from Pakistan, 7k Vietnam, 6k Sri Lanka, 5k from each of South Africa, NZ, and Afghanistan, then 76k from all over the place.

If Australia is trying to become an "ethno-state", we're doing it wrong.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 18, 2021, 09:02:14 PM
Australia has 25.4 million people. 20.7 million of them are adults. 16.8 million of them are registered voters, which is 96.3% of all those eligible to vote, ie adult citizens not currently serving more than 2 years in prison. So over 80% of Australian adults are citizens. The rest are mostly permanent residents, which for most people is about a five year pathway to citizenship.

Last year over 200,000 people acquired citizenship. 38,000 of them were from India, 25,000 from the UK, 15,000 from China, 13,000 from the Philippines,  9k from Pakistan, 7k Vietnam, 6k Sri Lanka, 5k from each of South Africa, NZ, and Afghanistan, then 76k from all over the place.

If Australia is trying to become an "ethno-state", we're doing it wrong.

So do Indians count as former British subjects or not?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 18, 2021, 08:30:16 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 01:29:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 18, 2021, 11:54:57 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 18, 2021, 09:07:15 AM
  I do have a question regarding Israel.  Is it an ethno state?  In reading a guide as to how to immigrate to Israel, it seems it is.  I was under the impression that Americans think of ethno states as undesirable.  Is it OK for some people to have an ethno state, but other people are not allowed?

Such ethnostate
much wow

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54501546)

I'll also note there are Jews living in Israel from other different ethnicities, like from Russia, Turkey, etc.

Not to mention the Muslims and Christians that enjoy ciizenship and full rights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel)

So it's not even a teocracy

Care to try again?

  https://lawoffice.org.il/en/obtaining-citizenship-in-israel/

  Then maybe you will want to explain it to the law firm here that handles immigration to Israel.    Which hell I do not know, if we are splitting hairs over words here?  There is most definitely an extreme bias to a specific faith and ethnicity, if the right to return can be passed down from a parent, with no need for the child to prove they follow a faith...is that not ethnic?  You also make a statement as if Muslims or christians make up a large percentage of citizens.  Muslims make up a sizable percentage of permanent residents, and can vote in local elections, NOT national or parliamentary elections.  Your link gives no hard numbers as to how many actual citizens are among the muslim population, and even goes on to clarify MANY of the arab residents are permenant residents and not citizens.  I miss hard numbers in that link, I do see the word many used twice, once to say many of the Arab residents are citizens, and then again later to say many of the Arab residents are not citizens....     Or if the standards to achieve citizenship are anywhere near the same, especially for an immigrant.   What percentage of Muslim immigrants with no family that has ever lived in Israel are able to become citizens?

Faith, yes, it's supossed to be the home of the Jews, but there's a funny thing about religions...

You can convert into one.

  Might want to read just how hard it is to do that, right there in the link given.  I also did not know faith is passed through DNA.

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 10:05:48 PM
So do Indians count as former British subjects or not?

In what sense? Legally, no. An Indian has the same legal rights in Australia as a Thai, or whoever. It just depends on their visa status, or citizenship.

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 05:53:14 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 18, 2021, 05:20:39 PM
Honestly crazy to me how much hot air is expended on this topic given:

(A). Most of us aren't involved
(B). Your opinion doesn't matter

Your non-representative government is going to steal your money and launder it through foreign wars and kickbacks to buddies in big corporations. Fix that first.

You would have fit in really well in the 30s. Who cares about what the Nazis are doing in Germany, right?

   One lesson I think we can certainly take from the 30's, if people with a huge media presence and power in government start talking endlessly about choosing a specific group to blame for their problems and begin instituting means of ostracizing those people and discriminating against them, it behooves the people singled out to start taking it seriously.

Meanwhile, in Israel

Quote from: Shasarak on May 18, 2021, 11:05:02 PM
Meanwhile, in Israel

Greetings!

Yeah, Shasarak! Fucking so sad it's funny. That's part of the whole fucked up clown-world that we live in!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak on May 18, 2021, 11:05:02 PM
Meanwhile, in Israel

kills American industry if they don't.

Quote from: This Guy on May 18, 2021, 06:54:42 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 06:53:12 PM

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 09:03:18 AM
How did I know "the usual suspects" would support terrorists because their leftist handlers told them to do so...do you retards EVER use your own fucking brains or do you merely parrot MSM/CCP narratives?

I smile inside, though. In the future, when the Muslims take over many of these weak, cock-sucking Marxist nations, you know who they are going to make sure they throw into the woodchippers?

SHARK confirms inevitable victory of Muslim supremacy in United States, volunteers for woodchipper. shocking turnabout, what an upset

Greetings!

Yes. Well, the Muslims are harsh, and devoted to their religion, and their cause. They scorn the cuckery of the Liberal West, and keep their society strong. They reject most of the materialism and degeneracy of the West. They pay no heed whatsoever to anyone that criticizes them--they tend to crush their critics with a lead pipe, or stone them to death.

So, faced with such an opponent, the West is increasingly feminized, cucked, degenerate, and delusional. With so many prominent people and leaders so eager to get on their knees to get some Muslim pipe, the future of the West doesn't look good.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 11:15:09 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 18, 2021, 06:54:42 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 06:53:12 PM

Quote from: Brad on May 18, 2021, 09:03:18 AM
How did I know "the usual suspects" would support terrorists because their leftist handlers told them to do so...do you retards EVER use your own fucking brains or do you merely parrot MSM/CCP narratives?

I smile inside, though. In the future, when the Muslims take over many of these weak, cock-sucking Marxist nations, you know who they are going to make sure they throw into the woodchippers?

SHARK confirms inevitable victory of Muslim supremacy in United States, volunteers for woodchipper. shocking turnabout, what an upset

Greetings!

Yes. Well, the Muslims are harsh, and devoted to their religion, and their cause. They scorn the cuckery of the Liberal West, and keep their society strong. They reject most of the materialism and degeneracy of the West. They pay no heed whatsoever to anyone that criticizes them--they tend to crush their critics with a lead pipe, or stone them to death.

So, faced with such an opponent, the West is increasingly feminized, cucked, degenerate, and delusional. With so many prominent people and leaders so eager to get on their knees to get some Muslim pipe, the future of the West doesn't look good.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

sounds like a real problem to have this massive force that could crush us any minute. could they be easily beaten if the right folks rise up and do the right thing though

A note: criticism of Israel's government or specific policies is of course allowed on this group.

Anti-Zionism, the declaration that Israel should cease to exist, or the association of Jews with "rats", or any other Anti-Semitism is not.

So Mjollnir is banned.

  Reading my Koran, I noticed something I never realized before.   Hell in Islam is not forever.  You can work your way up and out and get "paroled".  I find that interesting.

QuoteIt was argued in 2008 and it'd be argued now. But suffice to say that the US uses resources far in excess of its share of world population. This is called being a First World country - France, Australia etc do that, too. That's what gives us our comfortable lifestyles. And that's also why we need militaries far in excess of our share of world population - to protect and/or acquire those resources.

Take away the lefties' mobile phones, TVs, tofu burgers and airconditioning and make them walk to work for a couple of weeks, and see what they think about military spending then.

  Point being I feel your 25% is likely considerably off as a whole lot has happened in China and India since then.  I would also say regarding lefties, these days they are all more or less warmongers and walk in lockstep with neocons regarding starting wars (as long as their kids dont have to go).  AS for the military being why there is a comfortable lifestyle, no.  At least not in the case of the USA, its military secures some of these things, but the reality is the USA could operate as an island regarding supplying its citizens with everything they need IF our international corporations were not obsessed with making a few more points on their shares.  I can not speak of Australia's need for a large military, but I can say the USA has WAY more military than it, or its citizens 'need' by a mile.  As for the goodies you mentioned, I can do without all of them.

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 04:43:15 PM

Here's my question for you --

Suppose the Arab countries were to attempt a military naval and air blockade of Israel, blocking all of its shipping and trade. Would Israel be justified in counter-attacks on those countries?

Ok, let's go back to 2005 when Israel left Gaza. You know, back when there was no blockade and Palestinians from Gaza could work in Israel. Then there were legislative elections in Gaza in 2006. Hamas won, largely on an anti-corruption ticket. "Oh, how the mighty have fallen," judging by the way Hamas runs Gaza now. But anyways.

After winning the legislature, Hamas staged a coup and overthrew the Fatah executive, and took full control over Gaza. That was summer 2007. After which, Hamas celebrated their victory by firing rockets "fireworks" into Israel. Israel then imposed a blockade on Gaza. After an act of aggression by a terrorist organization.

In its ill-conceived ramping up of hostilities against Israel in 1967, Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran, an international waterway that leads to the Israeli port at Eilat. This was an act of war according to international law.

So, to answer your question: yes, Israel is justified in responding to an act of aggression in both cases. Claiming that Hamas is responding to a blockade imposed by the Israelis is lying by omission.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 19, 2021, 09:05:36 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2021, 04:43:15 PM

Here's my question for you --

Suppose the Arab countries were to attempt a military naval and air blockade of Israel, blocking all of its shipping and trade. Would Israel be justified in counter-attacks on those countries?

Ok, let's go back to 2005 when Israel left Gaza. You know, back when there was no blockade and Palestinians from Gaza could work in Israel. Then there were legislative elections in Gaza in 2006. Hamas won, largely on an anti-corruption ticket. "Oh, how the mighty have fallen," judging by the way Hamas runs Gaza now. But anyways.

After winning the legislature, Hamas staged a coup and overthrew the Fatah executive, and took full control over Gaza. That was summer 2007. After which, Hamas celebrated their victory by firing rockets "fireworks" into Israel. Israel then imposed a blockade on Gaza. After an act of aggression by a terrorist organization.

In its ill-conceived ramping up of hostilities against Israel in 1967, Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran, an international waterway that leads to the Israeli port at Eilat. This was an act of war according to international law.

So, to answer your question: yes, Israel is justified in responding to an act of aggression in both cases. Claiming that Hamas is responding to a blockade imposed by the Israelis is lying by omission.

Greetings!

Great historical notes, Heavy Josh! I certainly appreciate the commentary you provide here, as well in your earlier commentary in this thread.

What always grinds me is that Liberals always seem to be so ignorant of the *long* line of incidents, terrorism, and war that the Arabs and Muslims have continued to prosecute against the nation of Israel since their refounding in 1948. FIVE major wars since then--1948, 1956, 1967, 1972, and 1982. And these morons wonder why Israel is hyper vigilant and controlling about every aspect of their society? As has been mentioned, Israel is *TINY* The fat, smug American liberals that sob about why can't Israel *compromise* and give up this land here, or that land there? Well, because the land there is tiny. Leaving ZERO room for retreat or warning. Get one thing wrong, and the Muslim armies overwhelm you, your radars, air defenses, time-ratios to missile intercepts, all of that. You are DEFEATED. You become exterminated, which is what most of the Muslim world proclaimed for decades against Israel and the Jewish people.

Damned right Israel needs to remain strong, and keep every inch of their land. Ancient Israel, passed down through the generations of history from the patriarchs. As for the "Palestinians"--they can move to Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, the whole Muslim Middle East. People here cry and wonder why Israel doesn't 'Compromise". Compromising means getting on your knees and being crushed.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 19, 2021, 12:07:20 AM
A note: criticism of Israel's government or specific policies is of course allowed on this group.

Anti-Zionism, the declaration that Israel should cease to exist, or the association of Jews with "rats", or any other Anti-Semitism is not.

So Mjollnir is banned.

Pundit, you're Jewish yourself, aren't you? Antisemitism doesn't bother me because I've been teased my whole life about a variety of bullshit and that sort of thing just fades into the background. Is the ban specifically to keep the board free from outright racism? Just wondering.

The Israel stuff reminds me a lot of how China has been using the George Floyd insurrection to claim the US is racist. Sure, the US isn't perfect. Lots of things to criticize. But that pales in comparison to the genocide of the Uyghurs, the concentration camps, forced sterilization, systematic rapes, mass organ harvesting, and so on. The only reason China has any leverage is because the US is a modern nation with Western ideals, that values things like freedom of expression, and is intensely self-critical of its faults. China in contrast suppresses any criticism, denies almost everything, and inflicts horrors on its own people on a massive scale. They're not equivalent. The difference is staggering.

Same with Israel compared to the Palestinians and the Arab states that surround them. Israel is more hardline than the US, largely because it's surrounded by enemies who want its extermination, but it's fundamentally an open, Western country with similar ideals and a similar degree of self-reflection. Its enemies, by contrast, both external and domestic, are terrorists who use their own people as human shields, and are waging a war of ethnic extermination.

It's valid to criticize Israel, when they fall short of the ideals they share with the rest of the Western world. And it's also valid to point out that Hamas has, in the past, done some decent things like building schools and infrastructure. And we should also have sympathy for the Palestinians, because they're a people without a country or much in the way of self-determination, and their leaders aren't doing them any favors. But we always have to recognize we're holding the two sides to very different standards. It's still a day and night comparison.

Quote from: Pat on May 19, 2021, 10:06:35 AMAnd we should also have sympathy for the Palestinians, because they're a people without a country or much in the way of self-determination, and their leaders aren't doing them any favors.

I have zero sympathy for people who literally want to murder someone else because they have the wrong religion. Yes, that is a "broad brush" by which to paint "Palestinians," which isn't even a real thing, but sorry, they're either active in their hatred towards the Jewish state or complicit in the actions of Hamas. A lot of those people could petition to become Israeli citizens, or at least residents, and I'm sure they'd have a good chance of doing so, but then they'd have to live with dirty Jews and they can't have any of that. So, basically, fuck them.

Quote from: Pat on May 19, 2021, 10:06:35 AM
The Israel stuff reminds me a lot of how China has been using the George Floyd insurrection to claim the US is racist. Sure, the US isn't perfect. Lots of things to criticize. But that pales in comparison to the genocide of the Uyghurs, the concentration camps, forced sterilization, systematic rapes, mass organ harvesting, and so on. The only reason China has any leverage is because the US is a modern nation with Western ideals, that values things like freedom of expression, and is intensely self-critical of its faults. China in contrast suppresses any criticism, denies almost everything, and inflicts horrors on its own people on a massive scale. They're not equivalent. The difference is staggering.

Same with Israel compared to the Palestinians and the Arab states that surround them. Israel is more hardline than the US, largely because it's surrounded by enemies who want its extermination, but it's fundamentally an open, Western country with similar ideals and a similar degree of self-reflection. Its enemies, by contrast, both external and domestic, are terrorists who use their own people as human shields, and are waging a war of ethnic extermination.

It's valid to criticize Israel, when they fall short of the ideals they share with the rest of the Western world. And it's also valid to point out that Hamas has, in the past, done some decent things like building schools and infrastructure. And we should also have sympathy for the Palestinians, because they're a people without a country or much in the way of self-determination, and their leaders aren't doing them any favors. But we always have to recognize we're holding the two sides to very different standards. It's still a day and night comparison.

  Ah....China.  Their immigration to citizen policies are full blown ethnostate.   They also abuse the shit out of US policies to have women go to the USA, have a kid there, and family return to China thereafter.  Pretty sure at some point a Chinese family, or even a college student who are members of the CCP will return, gain positions in business/politics and just keep that Chinese colonization of the world rolling.   The blindness of all parties, or maybe its blindne$$ to China is staggering to me.  They are MORE of a threat than the USSR in the 80's, yet we deal with them in a way NO ONE would ever have in any way considered dealing with the USSR in the 80's.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 19, 2021, 10:12:48 AM

  Ah....China.  Their immigration to citizen policies are full blown ethnostate.   They also abuse the shit out of US policies to have women go to the USA, have a kid there, and family return to China thereafter.  Pretty sure at some point a Chinese family, or even a college student who are members of the CCP will return, gain positions in business/politics and just keep that Chinese colonization of the world rolling.   The blindness of all parties, or maybe its blindne$$ to China is staggering to me.  They are MORE of a threat than the USSR in the 80's, yet we deal with them in a way NO ONE would ever have in any way considered dealing with the USSR in the 80's.

It's getting off-topic, so I'll just mention China Uncensored/Unscripted does a good job covering it.

Quote from: Pat on May 19, 2021, 10:19:25 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 19, 2021, 10:12:48 AM

  Ah....China.  Their immigration to citizen policies are full blown ethnostate.   They also abuse the shit out of US policies to have women go to the USA, have a kid there, and family return to China thereafter.  Pretty sure at some point a Chinese family, or even a college student who are members of the CCP will return, gain positions in business/politics and just keep that Chinese colonization of the world rolling.   The blindness of all parties, or maybe its blindne$$ to China is staggering to me.  They are MORE of a threat than the USSR in the 80's, yet we deal with them in a way NO ONE would ever have in any way considered dealing with the USSR in the 80's.

It's getting off-topic, so I'll just mention China Uncensored/Unscripted does a good job covering it.

  I have been off topic for pretty much this whole discussion with stories about a dive bar in Haifa and so forth.   I honestly do not care to rant anymore about China either, people missing that one, or not caring will not change.   

Quote from: Pat on May 19, 2021, 10:06:35 AM
The Israel stuff reminds me a lot of how China has been using the George Floyd insurrection to claim the US is racist. Sure, the US isn't perfect. Lots of things to criticize. But that pales in comparison to the genocide of the Uyghurs, the concentration camps, forced sterilization, systematic rapes, mass organ harvesting, and so on. The only reason China has any leverage is because the US is a modern nation with Western ideals, that values things like freedom of expression, and is intensely self-critical of its faults. China in contrast suppresses any criticism, denies almost everything, and inflicts horrors on its own people on a massive scale. They're not equivalent. The difference is staggering.

I've attached to this post the most terrifying tweet I've ever seen: witness the Chinese government proudly noting that concentration camps work. One thing that so many forget about China is that there is no free press, and no way to get any accurate facts about anything inside the country. We only know about the Uighurs because of defectors, espionage, satellite imagery, and a very small group of intrepid human rights activists who are actually trying to do some good.

There are human rights abuses going on in the West Bank. It sucks. You know how we know about them? The Israeli press. The Israeli left is so left that it makes Nancy Pelosi look like Pat Buchanan. And yet all those leftists have all served in the IDF, and many in the West Bank, and you know what? Israel is a free country, and they're entitled to their opinion and political views. And I remember the 90s, and how filled with hope everyone was that Oslo was going to work, and how heartbreaking the Rabin assassination was. There was palpable relief at the evacuation from Southern Lebanon too, fat lot of good any of that did.

And then the Second Intifada woke up the vast majority of the Israeli left. They're not stupid. They know that Arafat had the whole thing planned. They know that Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was just pretext. It could just have easily been "oh, it's Tuesday". No, they still would rather not have to rule over the Palestinians. On that they agree with the Israeli right. But the alternative to staying in Judah and Samaria (the West Bank) is even worse: ceding full control of the highlands to Iran and Iranian-backed terrorist groups is national suicide.

The same thing goes with this latest round of violence. Everyone understands that Jordan liquidated East Jerusalem of Jews in 1948. The legal dispute over Sheikh Jarrah has been ongoing for over two decades. The fuss everyone is making is about 4 houses: the Palestinian tenants of those houses haven't paid rent. In decades. This was just another bit of pretext for Hamas to cement its control over the Palestinian cause.

Fortunately, it seems that Hamas has been otherwise expecting a repeat of 2014. The Israelis seem to be fighting smarter. We'll see how this all plays out.

Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2021, 09:29:06 AM



The fat, smug American liberals that sob about why can't Israel *compromise* and give up this land here, or that land there?

I'm an overweight Canadian (smugness is our national export) who tends center-left on domestic policy issues. So I think you just triggered me. :)

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 19, 2021, 09:05:36 AM
Ok, let's go back to 2005 when Israel left Gaza. You know, back when there was no blockade and Palestinians from Gaza could work in Israel. Then there were legislative elections in Gaza in 2006. Hamas won, largely on an anti-corruption ticket. "Oh, how the mighty have fallen," judging by the way Hamas runs Gaza now. But anyways.

After winning the legislature, Hamas staged a coup and overthrew the Fatah executive, and took full control over Gaza. That was summer 2007. After which, Hamas celebrated their victory by firing rockets "fireworks" into Israel. Israel then imposed a blockade on Gaza. After an act of aggression by a terrorist organization.

In its ill-conceived ramping up of hostilities against Israel in 1967, Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran, an international waterway that leads to the Israeli port at Eilat. This was an act of war according to international law.

So, to answer your question: yes, Israel is justified in responding to an act of aggression in both cases. Claiming that Hamas is responding to a blockade imposed by the Israelis is lying by omission.

I realize that in some places, "Gaza Blockade" is used to refer to the heavy travel restrictions imposed since 2007 on Gaza. However, that was not the start of the blockade in a colloquial sense. Israel has never allowed free trade or movement into Gaza since the 1967 invasion, and has periodically had imposed comprehensive closures of almost all travel. Under the 1993 Oslo Accords, Gaza started to make progress towards having a sea port and airport -- but the development of those were under Israeli control. The Gaza airport operated briefly from 1999 to 2000, but then was closed and subsequently bombed. The sea port never opened.

For example, this is a U.N. report from 2006:

QuoteThe closure of Karni crossing (al Muntar), since 15 January, is raising serious economic and humanitarian concerns for the 1.4 million Gazan population. The loss of value in exports is estimated to be US$ 500,000 a day.1  The closure is creating a shortage of basic goods inside the Gaza Strip, notably dairy products, fruit and construction materials. The Palestinian Ministry of Health is running short on medical supplies and has to rely on emergency stocks. Drugs for anesthetic use are in particular short supply.

Source: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-195535/

Even if a limited flow of goods were permitted, Israel would never accept a foreign military enforcing control of its borders, restricting and periodically closing off trade or travel. If Israel were subjected to the even the threat of such restrictions, they would respond with military force.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 19, 2021, 11:01:22 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2021, 09:29:06 AM



The fat, smug American liberals that sob about why can't Israel *compromise* and give up this land here, or that land there?

I'm an overweight Canadian (smugness is our national export) who tends center-left on domestic policy issues. So I think you just triggered me. :)

Greetings!

*Laughing* Good show, Heavy Josh! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Brad on May 19, 2021, 10:10:16 AM
I have zero sympathy for people who literally want to murder someone else because they have the wrong religion. Yes, that is a "broad brush" by which to paint "Palestinians," which isn't even a real thing, but sorry, they're either active in their hatred towards the Jewish state or complicit in the actions of Hamas. A lot of those people could petition to become Israeli citizens, or at least residents, and I'm sure they'd have a good chance of doing so, but then they'd have to live with dirty Jews and they can't have any of that. So, basically, fuck them.

The bolded section above is one of these points of factual disagreement. To my understanding, it is virtually impossible for a Palestinian to become an Israeli citizen. By law, even if they marry an Israeli citizen, they do not become either a citizen or a legal resident. There was some immigration in the 1990s after the Oslo Accords, but that was ended in the 2000s.

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2021, 12:08:17 PM

Quote from: Brad on May 19, 2021, 10:10:16 AM
I have zero sympathy for people who literally want to murder someone else because they have the wrong religion. Yes, that is a "broad brush" by which to paint "Palestinians," which isn't even a real thing, but sorry, they're either active in their hatred towards the Jewish state or complicit in the actions of Hamas. A lot of those people could petition to become Israeli citizens, or at least residents, and I'm sure they'd have a good chance of doing so, but then they'd have to live with dirty Jews and they can't have any of that. So, basically, fuck them.

The bolded section above is one of these points of factual disagreement. To my understanding, it is virtually impossible for a Palestinian to become an Israeli citizen. By law, even if they marry an Israeli citizen, they do not become either a citizen or a legal resident. There was some immigration in the 1990s after the Oslo Accords, but that was ended in the 2000s.

Quote the relevant sections of Israeli law that states this, otherwise this is conjecture at best.

A quick DuckDuckGo search brought up a Quora answer on "can a palestinian become a citizen of Israel" that was quite interesting.  Is a Pakistani or Bangladeshi entitled to Indian citizenship?  Is a Turkish Cypriot entitled to a Greek Cypriot citizenship?  Same situations but no one plays these stupid games with them in North America.  Most North Americans don't even know the history of those issues.

It also mentioned that 20% of Israel is Arab-Muslims and that the reason more might not want to get citizenship is due to having to pledge loyalty to Israel and taking loyalty tests as part of citizenship.  There's obviously also concern on the Jewish side that if 51% of the population ticks over to Arab-Muslim you end up with Palestine next to Palestine and eventually the expulsion of the Jews.  Hence the loyalty tests.

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2021, 11:02:59 AM
I realize that in some places, "Gaza Blockade" is used to refer to the heavy travel restrictions imposed since 2007 on Gaza. However, that was not the start of the blockade in a colloquial sense. Israel has never allowed free trade or movement into Gaza since the 1967 invasion, and has periodically had imposed comprehensive closures of almost all travel.

Why is that a problem? Israel is a sovereign nation. It is entitled to control its own borders.

Also, "blockade" has a very specific definition: the use of military force to prevent traffic in and out of a port. I suppose in this instance we're glomming it together with "siege", which is a little inaccurate in that the Israelis don't seem to want to conquer Gaza again. Calling the "Gaza Blockade" a blockade in the colloquial sense is just obfuscation on your part. There were and still are very pressing security reasons why the Israelis controlled travel to and from Gaza into its territory before 2007 and since: the threat of terror attacks on its citizenry inside Israel. This was an ongoing problem before 1967 as well, when the Gaza Strip was controlled by Egypt.

Quote
Even if a limited flow of goods were permitted, Israel would never accept a foreign military enforcing control of its borders, restricting and periodically closing off trade or travel. If Israel were subjected to the even the threat of such restrictions, they would respond with military force.

Sure. But that's not what the present (or prior) flare up of violence is about.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 12:13:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2021, 12:08:17 PM

Quote from: Brad on May 19, 2021, 10:10:16 AM
I have zero sympathy for people who literally want to murder someone else because they have the wrong religion. Yes, that is a "broad brush" by which to paint "Palestinians," which isn't even a real thing, but sorry, they're either active in their hatred towards the Jewish state or complicit in the actions of Hamas. A lot of those people could petition to become Israeli citizens, or at least residents, and I'm sure they'd have a good chance of doing so, but then they'd have to live with dirty Jews and they can't have any of that. So, basically, fuck them.

The bolded section above is one of these points of factual disagreement. To my understanding, it is virtually impossible for a Palestinian to become an Israeli citizen. By law, even if they marry an Israeli citizen, they do not become either a citizen or a legal resident. There was some immigration in the 1990s after the Oslo Accords, but that was ended in the 2000s.

Quote the relevant sections of Israeli law that states this, otherwise this is conjecture at best.

Sure. Here is an English translation of the law from the Knesset website:

https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/citizenship_law.htm

Here's the Wikipedia article on the law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law

  From what I read on an website for a law firm that specialized in Israeli citizenship/residence they did not even cover muslims or christians.   When I was reading through the codes, I did see the parts where an oath and loyalty test was required, but I was under the impression the applicant also had to show proof they, or their family (father, grandfather, etc) had been in the region since 1948.  I have no idea if this is on the books and easy to get rolling, or similar to China where they say residents (notably westerners) can apply for citizenship....but never seem to get approved.  I have no idea how the law functions on the ground, or how much proof an applicant would have to show.  I also wonder what happens when they have the "wrong" cousin or uncle.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on May 19, 2021, 12:35:07 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2021, 11:02:59 AM
I realize that in some places, "Gaza Blockade" is used to refer to the heavy travel restrictions imposed since 2007 on Gaza. However, that was not the start of the blockade in a colloquial sense. Israel has never allowed free trade or movement into Gaza since the 1967 invasion, and has periodically had imposed comprehensive closures of almost all travel.

Why is that a problem? Israel is a sovereign nation. It is entitled to control its own borders.

Also, "blockade" has a very specific definition: the use of military force to prevent traffic in and out of a port. I suppose in this instance we're glomming it together with "siege", which is a little inaccurate in that the Israelis don't seem to want to conquer Gaza again. Calling the "Gaza Blockade" a blockade in the colloquial sense is just obfuscation on your part. There were and still are very pressing security reasons why the Israelis controlled travel to and from Gaza into its territory before 2007 and since: the threat of terror attacks on its citizenry inside Israel. This was an ongoing problem before 1967 as well, when the Gaza Strip was controlled by Egypt.

I highlighted the phrase bolded above.

That is phrased as if Gaza is not Israeli territory, but Israel consider Gaza to be its territory. Israel has not just been controlling travel to and from Gaza into the rest of Israel. It has also been controlling travel to and from Gaza and *anywhere else*.

Since long before 2007, the Gazans have not had free trade with the rest of the world. They could only leave and enter Gaza through one of the approved Israeli-controlled checkpoints. The change in 2007 is that Israel clamped down much harder on what trade and travel was allowed, but trade and travel was always under Israeli control.

Now, one could say that there are pressing security reasons why Israel needs to control all trade into Gaza. After all, if Gazans had free trade they could buy weapons or the materials to make weapons. But again, Israel would consider it an act of war if another country were to control their ports and prevent *Israel* from making or receiving weapons.

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2021, 12:36:00 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 12:13:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 19, 2021, 12:08:17 PM

Quote from: Brad on May 19, 2021, 10:10:16 AM
I have zero sympathy for people who literally want to murder someone else because they have the wrong religion. Yes, that is a "broad brush" by which to paint "Palestinians," which isn't even a real thing, but sorry, they're either active in their hatred towards the Jewish state or complicit in the actions of Hamas. A lot of those people could petition to become Israeli citizens, or at least residents, and I'm sure they'd have a good chance of doing so, but then they'd have to live with dirty Jews and they can't have any of that. So, basically, fuck them.

The bolded section above is one of these points of factual disagreement. To my understanding, it is virtually impossible for a Palestinian to become an Israeli citizen. By law, even if they marry an Israeli citizen, they do not become either a citizen or a legal resident. There was some immigration in the 1990s after the Oslo Accords, but that was ended in the 2000s.

Quote the relevant sections of Israeli law that states this, otherwise this is conjecture at best.

Sure. Here is an English translation of the law from the Knesset website:

https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/citizenship_law.htm

Here's the Wikipedia article on the law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law

I wonder why the Israelis might impose such a restriction, and keep renewing it. It's such a mystery! It couldn't have anything to do with the words 'intifada' or 'rockets', could it?

Nothing I said was disputed whatsoever. A Palestinian could become an Israeli resident if they petitioned their case properly. They won't because they hate dirty Jews.

What the fuck about this concept is so hard for a communist to understand?

EDIT: I mean, did you actually READ the Knesset crap you linked? It's just a bunch of legalese to prevent people becoming residents/citizens who obviously are trying to subvert Israeli culture and essentially "sneak in". Even a straight up moron can figure out the intent of what they're trying to do here...

what's properly. what's the right way to prove the negative of not being a rocket-firer.

Quote from: Brad on May 19, 2021, 01:30:05 PM
Nothing I said was disputed whatsoever. A Palestinian could become an Israeli resident if they petitioned their case properly. They won't because they hate dirty Jews.

What the fuck about this concept is so hard for a communist to understand?

EDIT: I mean, did you actually READ the Knesset crap you linked? It's just a bunch of legalese to prevent people becoming residents/citizens who obviously are trying to subvert Israeli culture and essentially "sneak in". Even a straight up moron can figure out the intent of what they're trying to do here...

Greetings!

It is so difficult for Communists to understand, my friend, because they have brainwashed themselves so deeply with the idea that THE EVIL JEWS are the problem...while rejecting the facts and historical reality that it is the Muslims that have embraced a ong-standing and mindless racism and hatred towards the Jews. The Musims have hated the Jews, and constantly demand and call for the Jews to be exterminated. The Muslim populations have been polled and interviewed--a majority of them hate Jews. Muslims in the streets, for decades, have screamed for Jews to be ruthlessly slaughtered. For decades, Muslim leadership has led and called for the goals of exterminating the Jews.

Mushy-minded Liberal Marxists don't want to confront the deep, ugly truth that many Muslims throughout the Middle East especially, but also many living beyond the Middle East, hate the Jews and rejoice at the thought of Jews being ultimately defeated and exterminated like dogs.

Because they are delusional, as well as intellectual and moral cowards, instead of confronting Muslim racism and hatred towards Jews and others--the mushy-minded good Western Marxist embraces the Muslims as the true victims in their oppression narrative, and joins with the Muslim in turning against the EVIL JEWS! JEWS ARE RACIST! JEWS ARE OPPRESSORS!--you know how they reee about this fucking nonsense. It makes no logical or reasonable sense, there's no moral justification for it whatsoever, but the Marxist ultimately doesn't give a damn about morality, truth, reason, or logic, let alone things like respect, love, compassion, or friendship--because they ultimately desire power, and a Marxist Utopia, where they imagine themselves as being part of that elite, ruling Frosting that dominates everyone else in society.

Absolutely evil, my friend. The fight is real. The battle for truth is real.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Brad on May 19, 2021, 01:30:05 PM
Nothing I said was disputed whatsoever. A Palestinian could become an Israeli resident if they petitioned their case properly. They won't because they hate dirty Jews.

What the fuck about this concept is so hard for a communist to understand?

EDIT: I mean, did you actually READ the Knesset crap you linked? It's just a bunch of legalese to prevent people becoming residents/citizens who obviously are trying to subvert Israeli culture and essentially "sneak in". Even a straight up moron can figure out the intent of what they're trying to do here...

Greetings!

It is so difficult for Communists to understand, my friend, because they have brainwashed themselves so deeply with the idea that THE EVIL JEWS are the problem...while rejecting the facts and historical reality that it is the Muslims that have embraced a ong-standing and mindless racism and hatred towards the Jews. The Musims have hated the Jews, and constantly demand and call for the Jews to be exterminated. The Muslim populations have been polled and interviewed--a majority of them hate Jews. Muslims in the streets, for decades, have screamed for Jews to be ruthlessly slaughtered. For decades, Muslim leadership has led and called for the goals of exterminating the Jews.

Mushy-minded Liberal Marxists don't want to confront the deep, ugly truth that many Muslims throughout the Middle East especially, but also many living beyond the Middle East, hate the Jews and rejoice at the thought of Jews being ultimately defeated and exterminated like dogs.

Because they are delusional, as well as intellectual and moral cowards, instead of confronting Muslim racism and hatred towards Jews and others--the mushy-minded good Western Marxist embraces the Muslims as the true victims in their oppression narrative, and joins with the Muslim in turning against the EVIL JEWS! JEWS ARE RACIST! JEWS ARE OPPRESSORS!--you know how they reee about this fucking nonsense. It makes no logical or reasonable sense, there's no moral justification for it whatsoever, but the Marxist ultimately doesn't give a damn about morality, truth, reason, or logic, let alone things like respect, love, compassion, or friendship--because they ultimately desire power, and a Marxist Utopia, where they imagine themselves as being part of that elite, ruling Frosting that dominates everyone else in society.

Absolutely evil, my friend. The fight is real. The battle for truth is real.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

how's that battle going for you so far

Quote from: This Guy on May 19, 2021, 02:06:34 PM
how's that battle going for you so far

I think I counted SHARK destroying 3 fat, smug American liberals just this morning.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 19, 2021, 05:06:51 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 19, 2021, 02:06:34 PM
how's that battle going for you so far

I think I counted SHARK destroying 3 fat, smug American liberals just this morning.

damn, good haul. any worth putting on a trophy case or did their heads get too damaged

Quote from: This Guy on May 19, 2021, 05:35:09 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 19, 2021, 05:06:51 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 19, 2021, 02:06:34 PM
how's that battle going for you so far

I think I counted SHARK destroying 3 fat, smug American liberals just this morning.

damn, good haul. any worth putting on a trophy case or did their heads get too damaged

No one has that much storage space.

Quote from: Brad on May 19, 2021, 09:30:01 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 19, 2021, 12:07:20 AM
A note: criticism of Israel's government or specific policies is of course allowed on this group.

Anti-Zionism, the declaration that Israel should cease to exist, or the association of Jews with "rats", or any other Anti-Semitism is not.

So Mjollnir is banned.

Pundit, you're Jewish yourself, aren't you? Antisemitism doesn't bother me because I've been teased my whole life about a variety of bullshit and that sort of thing just fades into the background. Is the ban specifically to keep the board free from outright racism? Just wondering.

I'm not Jewish myself, no. But I do have a tremendous admiration for the Jewish people.

Well, everyone likes roast chicken and challah.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 19, 2021, 11:25:21 PM
Well, everyone likes roast chicken and challah.

True, but you have to weigh that against the fact that everybody hates gefilte fish and ptcha.

Ultimately, the fate of Israel might come down to how the masses feel about gribenes :/

I believe an Israeli interrogation method is to feed them matzah ball soup. Lots of it. The interrogation comes the day after, when they want to go to the toilet.

But if we're going to talk about Israeli crimes - fries in falafel, WTF?

Fries in the pita is something I've encountered only rarely, and always in the western US, and I don't mind it that much.

I'm willing to let whoever does that off the hook regarding war crimes charges, provided they didn't also slop on some ranch dressing.

The lack of bacon is kind of a deal breaker for me, though I have no real animus against Israel or the Jews.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 08:00:35 AM
The lack of bacon is kind of a deal breaker for me, though I have no real animus against Israel or the Jews.

  Perhaps Turkey Bacon?

 BLM's taking a stance gives me a knee jerk nudge towards a position other than "hands off".   

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 08:00:35 AM
The lack of bacon is kind of a deal breaker for me, though I have no real animus against Israel or the Jews.

I just eat bacon and pretend it's not a problem. So far, so good. I also put cheese on my hamburgers...definitely a heretic.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 08:49:56 AM
BLM's taking a stance gives me a knee jerk nudge towards a position other than "hands off".

I thought you meant to write BLT and that sounded like a good lunch option.

Quote from: Brad on May 20, 2021, 09:07:16 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 08:00:35 AM
The lack of bacon is kind of a deal breaker for me, though I have no real animus against Israel or the Jews.

I just eat bacon and pretend it's not a problem. So far, so good. I also put cheese on my hamburgers...definitely a heretic.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 08:49:56 AM
BLM's taking a stance gives me a knee jerk nudge towards a position other than "hands off".

I thought you meant to write BLT and that sounded like a good lunch option.

   Sorry took it back to 'reality' where a new political party suddenly has huge sway thanks to shitloads of untraceable money in their coffers.  But a BLT does sound good for lunch.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 08:37:28 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 08:00:35 AM
The lack of bacon is kind of a deal breaker for me, though I have no real animus against Israel or the Jews.

  Perhaps Turkey Bacon?

Get. OUT.

As a general commentary -

I think that U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East has generally been a mess. For example, I think the Iraq War was a mistake that did not make the region more stable - or make Americans more stable. That doesn't mean that I approved of Saddam Hussein - but rather that invading Iraq was the wrong solution, and the main people it benefited were arms manufacturers, not either Americans or Iraqis. Intervening in the Middle East requires understanding things from the point of view of people who live there, even when one disagrees with them.

There have been successes. I think the Gulf War added to the stability of the region by making clear that unilateral invasion will not be tolerated by the rest of the world. (It could have been avoided, but once the invasion happened, I think it was the right move.)

For Israel, I would note that they have successfully won recognition and cooperation with both Egypt and Jordan, who used to be enemies. Muslims aren't all demons who just want to eat Jewish babies. As far as the Palestinians, I think that during the 1990s, the Oslo Accords showed great progress forwards in normalizing relations with the Palestinians. The PLO formally recognized Israel, and there was relative peace and progress under ​Yitzhak Rabin. An airport was built in Gaza, and work on a sea port progressed. I believe that if Rabin hadn't been killed and his strategy had gained support, then there was the potential for increasing peace rather than the worsening conditions and escalating violence we have seen since then.

The breakdown came from both sides, not just the Palestinians. It was Israeli hardliners who assassinated Rabin, and escalated problems by increasing Jewish settlements into Palestinian territory the late 1990s, and encroaching increasingly on Palestinian-held holy sites. There are moderates on both sides who just want to live in peace, but the more that hard-liners on the other side hold power, the harder it is for them.

More broadly than that, I was struck by SHARK's characterization:

Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 11:15:09 PM
Well, the Muslims are harsh, and devoted to their religion, and their cause. They scorn the cuckery of the Liberal West, and keep their society strong. They reject most of the materialism and degeneracy of the West. They pay no heed whatsoever to anyone that criticizes them--they tend to crush their critics with a lead pipe, or stone them to death.

So, faced with such an opponent, the West is increasingly feminized, cucked, degenerate, and delusional. With so many prominent people and leaders so eager to get on their knees to get some Muslim pipe, the future of the West doesn't look good.

By implication, this suggests that having things like freedom of speech and women's rights is weakness on the part of the West, which is a problem for its future. I think it is the opposite. Democracy, freedom of speech, and civil rights are the West's strengths.

The USSR was the epitome of this sort of toughness. They didn't tolerate dissent, and executed people who disagreed. But that totalitarianism wasn't stable. Likewise, I think totalitarianism in Muslim states like Saudi Arabia is inherently unstable. Islam is going strong as a religion, but the Arab Spring is a sign that more and more of the Muslim world is rejecting these dictators.

Sadly, the U.S. often has sided with dictators like the Saudis. I think if we disavow them and promote freedom and democracy, along with women's rights and other civil rights, it will be better for both Americans and our image overseas.

  So the USSR fell because of not tolerating Dissent....it seems Putin is pretty stable, super stable given the circumstances Europe and the USA box him into, and I was not aware he was allowing all this freedom and dissent you speak of.   The USSR fell apart because of Balkanism and the failure of communism to run an economy, not because a lack of tolerance for dissent.
 
   As for the Arab Spring...really?  Isnt that where the open air slave markets of Libya were born?

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 03:16:09 PM
  So the USSR fell because of not tolerating Dissent....it seems Putin is pretty stable, super stable given the circumstances Europe and the USA box him into, and I was not aware he was allowing all this freedom and dissent you speak of.   The USSR fell apart because of Balkanism and the failure of communism to run an economy, not because a lack of tolerance for dissent.
 
   As for the Arab Spring...really?  Isnt that where the open air slave markets of Libya were born?

Well, the open-air slave markets are more a result of then-President Barack Obama and Secretary Clinton deciding to pot Gaddhafi for... reasons.

(Seriously, I have no idea why they helped knock him off.)

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 03:31:33 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 03:16:09 PM
  So the USSR fell because of not tolerating Dissent....it seems Putin is pretty stable, super stable given the circumstances Europe and the USA box him into, and I was not aware he was allowing all this freedom and dissent you speak of.   The USSR fell apart because of Balkanism and the failure of communism to run an economy, not because a lack of tolerance for dissent.
 
   As for the Arab Spring...really?  Isnt that where the open air slave markets of Libya were born?

Well, the open-air slave markets are more a result of then-President Barack Obama and Secretary Clinton deciding to pot Gaddhafi for... reasons.

(Seriously, I have no idea why they helped knock him off.)

  I do...they were supporting that sweet Arab spring going round.
EDITED TO ADD:  I do remember Gaddhafi making some proclamations about no longer taking the dollar or Euro for oil and trading only gold....going off the dollar is a good way to get killed/invaded/ or some sweet democracy spread all over your country.

  As for feminized, Shark said nothing about Women voting.  Men are more feminized today.  Lot more fatties.  Lot more men raised by fatherless households.  Lot more avoidance of risk and staying inside a whole lot. A lot of bullshit about having women in spec ops (and constantly having to change fitness standards to get women into combat positions).   Men fight better than women, period.  This completely idiocy around trying to make men and women "equal" at all tasks is full blown retarded.  They are not, and never will be.  There are strengths and weaknesses on both sides.  If you make women more manly and men more feminine,  it will not end well.   This is one we are going to have to see how the next 30 years play out.  China has no diverstity, no democracy, no freedom of speech.  Same for Islam.  Lets see how they are looking in 30 compared to the trajectory the USA is on.  Anyone looking at the directions they are going knows without a shocking change, it doesnt end well for the USA.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on May 20, 2021, 11:45:01 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 08:37:28 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 08:00:35 AM
The lack of bacon is kind of a deal breaker for me, though I have no real animus against Israel or the Jews.

  Perhaps Turkey Bacon?

Get. OUT.

No kidding. I worked for a 7DA employer that tried to tell me turkey bacon was as good as pork bacon. I lost a great deal of trust in that employer's judgment that day.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 03:39:01 PM
  As for feminized, Shark said nothing about Women voting.  Men are more feminized today.  Lot more fatties.  Lot more men raised by fatherless households.  Lot more avoidance of risk and staying inside a whole lot. A lot of bullshit about having women in spec ops (and constantly having to change fitness standards to get women into combat positions).   Men fight better than women, period.  This completely idiocy around trying to make men and women "equal" at all tasks is full blown retarded.  They are not, and never will be.  There are strengths and weaknesses on both sides.  If you make women more manly and men more feminine,  it will not end well.   This is one we are going to have to see how the next 30 years play out.  China has no diverstity, no democracy, no freedom of speech.  Same for Islam.  Lets see how they are looking in 30 compared to the trajectory the USA is on.  Anyone looking at the directions they are going knows without a shocking change, it doesnt end well for the USA.

oggsmash - I think I understand your point about gender roles, but it also sounds like you're also saying that lack of diversity, democracy, and freedom of speech are a source of strength and stability for China and Islamic countries. i.e. It is *because* they lack diversity, democracy, and freedom of speech that they will do better in 30 years compared to the USA. Is that your position?

My argument is that diversity, democracy, and freedom of speech are sources of *strength* for a country. The USA has lasted for over 220 years - far longer than the USSR, Third Reich, PRC, and others. I think if we had lacked those - we would have been like all other countries since 1789, and have gone through multiple revolutions at the least, and have been weaker in the end.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 08:00:35 AM
The lack of bacon is kind of a deal breaker for me, though I have no real animus against Israel or the Jews.

This is truth.  Maybe they would relax more if they both found the way of the Bacon.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 03:39:01 PM
  As for feminized, Shark said nothing about Women voting.  Men are more feminized today.  Lot more fatties.  Lot more men raised by fatherless households.  Lot more avoidance of risk and staying inside a whole lot. A lot of bullshit about having women in spec ops (and constantly having to change fitness standards to get women into combat positions).   Men fight better than women, period.  This completely idiocy around trying to make men and women "equal" at all tasks is full blown retarded.  They are not, and never will be.  There are strengths and weaknesses on both sides.  If you make women more manly and men more feminine,  it will not end well.   This is one we are going to have to see how the next 30 years play out.  China has no diverstity, no democracy, no freedom of speech.  Same for Islam.  Lets see how they are looking in 30 compared to the trajectory the USA is on.  Anyone looking at the directions they are going knows without a shocking change, it doesnt end well for the USA.

Greetings!

Exactly, Ogg! Very well said!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2021, 05:21:36 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 03:39:01 PM
  As for feminized, Shark said nothing about Women voting.  Men are more feminized today.  Lot more fatties.  Lot more men raised by fatherless households.  Lot more avoidance of risk and staying inside a whole lot. A lot of bullshit about having women in spec ops (and constantly having to change fitness standards to get women into combat positions).   Men fight better than women, period.  This completely idiocy around trying to make men and women "equal" at all tasks is full blown retarded.  They are not, and never will be.  There are strengths and weaknesses on both sides.  If you make women more manly and men more feminine,  it will not end well.   This is one we are going to have to see how the next 30 years play out.  China has no diverstity, no democracy, no freedom of speech.  Same for Islam.  Lets see how they are looking in 30 compared to the trajectory the USA is on.  Anyone looking at the directions they are going knows without a shocking change, it doesnt end well for the USA.

oggsmash - I think I understand your point about gender roles, but it also sounds like you're also saying that lack of diversity, democracy, and freedom of speech are a source of strength and stability for China and Islamic countries. i.e. It is *because* they lack diversity, democracy, and freedom of speech that they will do better in 30 years compared to the USA. Is that your position?

My argument is that diversity, democracy, and freedom of speech are sources of *strength* for a country. The USA has lasted for over 220 years - far longer than the USSR, Third Reich, PRC, and others. I think if we had lacked those - we would have been like all other countries since 1789, and have gone through multiple revolutions at the least, and have been weaker in the end.

Greetings!

Well, the concepts and institutions of "Democracy, Diversity, and Freedom of Speech" do offer varying degrees of value, merit, and strength to a society. However, such benefits are moderated in degree and obviously also have a two-edged sword-like reality of also embracing fatal flaws, to the extent of how such concepts and institutions are embraced and supported. The same could be said for the civilizations of Communist/Oligarchic China, and the Muslim world.

Blindly and stupidly embrace and pursue such ideals as Democracy, Diversity, and Freedom of Speech like the West has been doing--like increasingly embracing Marxism, Feminism, a fucking cult of Diversity, coddling mentally ill people, the insane, the fucking morons, celebrating the obese hogg-beasts, and a devotion to emotionalism, hedonism, and materialism--while also scorning traditional values, masculine virtues, rationality and good sense--makes the West increasingly corrupt, divided, feminized, and fucking weak--and ripe for being infiltrated and absolutely crushed and dominated by China, or the Muslims.

The ascendancy of Islam throughout Western Europe means that once a critical threshold is achieved--you are fucked. Western Europe is going down that path right now, and has been on a steep descent into the abyss of shit for several decades now. Western Europe is clearly entering an end-game stage--the window for them to reclaim their culture, strength, and genuine independence is rapidly diminishing. The United States is on a similar track.

In ancient times, the democratic, diversity-loving and hedonistic Athens was crushed and destroyed by SPARTA.

In ancient times, an increasingly corrupt, feminized, divided, hedonistic, materialistic and self-absorbed Roman Empire became a fat pig that the strong, savage barbarians could easily plunder and conquer. The Romans, like the Greeks of Athens, were forced to get on their knees and beg and sob like crying women for mercy at the feet of the conquerors.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2021, 05:21:36 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 03:39:01 PM
  As for feminized, Shark said nothing about Women voting.  Men are more feminized today.  Lot more fatties.  Lot more men raised by fatherless households.  Lot more avoidance of risk and staying inside a whole lot. A lot of bullshit about having women in spec ops (and constantly having to change fitness standards to get women into combat positions).   Men fight better than women, period.  This completely idiocy around trying to make men and women "equal" at all tasks is full blown retarded.  They are not, and never will be.  There are strengths and weaknesses on both sides.  If you make women more manly and men more feminine,  it will not end well.   This is one we are going to have to see how the next 30 years play out.  China has no diverstity, no democracy, no freedom of speech.  Same for Islam.  Lets see how they are looking in 30 compared to the trajectory the USA is on.  Anyone looking at the directions they are going knows without a shocking change, it doesnt end well for the USA.

oggsmash - I think I understand your point about gender roles, but it also sounds like you're also saying that lack of diversity, democracy, and freedom of speech are a source of strength and stability for China and Islamic countries. i.e. It is *because* they lack diversity, democracy, and freedom of speech that they will do better in 30 years compared to the USA. Is that your position?

My argument is that diversity, democracy, and freedom of speech are sources of *strength* for a country. The USA has lasted for over 220 years - far longer than the USSR, Third Reich, PRC, and others. I think if we had lacked those - we would have been like all other countries since 1789, and have gone through multiple revolutions at the least, and have been weaker in the end.

    I think you will get a chance to see depending how the next 30 years plays out.      I think if you playing a team sport, it is not the time for many ideas and game plans.  You get a plan, and you execute together.  The Islamic countries are doing this.  China is doing this.  The USA can not keep gas flowing through a pipe.  I think honestly diversity in and of itself is nothing.  No value.  But I would also say no harm.  I think people PUSHING diversity is toxic.  People FORCING diversity is dangerous.

  To make a better point about how I view diversity.   I want the best/brightest/most motivated to improve the society in the USA.  I do not want or need more hispanic people because we lack hispanic people.  I want the best people, if a bunch of those people are hispanic, so be it, if they are black, asian or white, so be it.  I do not want a system of quotas where I need this many of x, y or z to check boxes.  That is simply being a fucktard.  By the same token if people have a culture or way of being where they came from that looks detrimental to society, No thanks, we are full.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 20, 2021, 03:55:15 PM

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on May 20, 2021, 11:45:01 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 08:37:28 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 08:00:35 AM
The lack of bacon is kind of a deal breaker for me, though I have no real animus against Israel or the Jews.

  Perhaps Turkey Bacon?

Get. OUT.

No kidding. I worked for a 7DA employer that tried to tell me turkey bacon was as good as pork bacon. I lost a great deal of trust in that employer's judgment that day.

  Hey, lets be fair, I never said it was anywhere near as good.  I just figured if there is a need to put something bacon-ish in there, it was a hail mary.

Make no mistake, I like turkey too, especially slow-smoked.

But it's not bacon. It is a passable substitute, but it is still a substitute.

That being said, I would eat turkey bacon rather than vegan pseudo-bacon every time.

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2021, 12:13:01 PM
The breakdown came from both sides, not just the Palestinians.

Why Civil Resistance Works points out that there was a nonviolent resistance movement coming from the Palestinians, and the Israelis simply didn't know what to do with that except give in. Notably, the movement came from within Gaza and the West Bank, and not from the PLO which was based overseas at the time. The PLO and others then took the movement over, got concessions, put themselves in charge in Gaza and the West Bank - and turned the movement violent, and the concessions stopped there.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 03:31:33 PM
(Seriously, I have no idea why they helped knock him off.)

In 2010 - the year before the NATO attacks - while President of the African Union, Gaddafi had suggested a common African currency backed by gold - and that oil should be sold in this currency. As well, for all their rapprochement, Gaddafi had a history of defying the West, which the West cannot forgive. It's like mobsters, if one betrays another they may "make peace", but it'll never last.

Gaddafi had of course made dozens of proposals like that in the past, swinging from African customs unions to Arab customs unions and united states of either and back again. So it probably wasn't going anywhere. Nonetheless, the point had to be made: the West is supreme, nobody else will have leadership. Like Nasser and Saddam before him, he had aspirations of uniting the Arab world under his own leadership. The prospects of that were never good, but the West can't allow anyone to even try - especially someone secular like those three, since only a secular leader has any hope of uniting those very disparate peoples of Africa or the Arab world.

By the way, Egypt has mediated an immediate unconditional ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. Let's hope it holds.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-truce-between-israel-hamas-begins-mediated-by-egypt-2021-05-20/

Any Cease Fire is good news.

Thank You Kyle Aaron for noting that.

- Ed C

I'd also note that it's Egypt mediating a ceasefire. Egypt. Historically Egypt was the chief foe of Israel - until Carter organised a peace - and the Egyptian President Sadat paid for that with his life. But forty years later Egypt is, if not Israel's friend, at least a helpful neighbour.

It's good to be ambitious and look ahead - and obviously there is great suffering and misery in that part of the world, which we want to change. But it's also good sometimes to look back and see how far you've come. Once you realise how much things have progressed over the years, it gives you greater hope for the future.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 20, 2021, 09:25:51 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2021, 12:13:01 PM
The breakdown came from both sides, not just the Palestinians.

Why Civil Resistance Works points out that there was a nonviolent resistance movement coming from the Palestinians, and the Israelis simply didn't know what to do with that except give in. Notably, the movement came from within Gaza and the West Bank, and not from the PLO which was based overseas at the time. The PLO and others then took the movement over, got concessions, put themselves in charge in Gaza and the West Bank - and turned the movement violent, and the concessions stopped there.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 03:31:33 PM
(Seriously, I have no idea why they helped knock him off.)

In 2010 - the year before the NATO attacks - while President of the African Union, Gaddafi had suggested a common African currency backed by gold - and that oil should be sold in this currency. As well, for all their rapprochement, Gaddafi had a history of defying the West, which the West cannot forgive. It's like mobsters, if one betrays another they may "make peace", but it'll never last.

Gaddafi had of course made dozens of proposals like that in the past, swinging from African customs unions to Arab customs unions and united states of either and back again. So it probably wasn't going anywhere. Nonetheless, the point had to be made: the West is supreme, nobody else will have leadership. Like Nasser and Saddam before him, he had aspirations of uniting the Arab world under his own leadership. The prospects of that were never good, but the West can't allow anyone to even try - especially someone secular like those three, since only a secular leader has any hope of uniting those very disparate peoples of Africa or the Arab world.

By the way, Egypt has mediated an immediate unconditional ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. Let's hope it holds.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-truce-between-israel-hamas-begins-mediated-by-egypt-2021-05-20/

Greetings!

Thank you, as well, Kye Aaron. Some of what you noted I was unaware of. Very interesting stuff!

Many years ago--back in the 1980's--I was very much in favour of wiping Qaddafi off the face of the map. He *was* a leader of terrorists and an enemy of the United States and our allies. However, in the subsequent years, from what I understand, Qaddafi made genuine and sincere efforts to "Change his spots" and embraced a variety of reforms, political initiatives, as well as fostering positive diplomatic and trade relationships. Qaddafi apparently invested considerable leadership and effort into improving Libya, and became something of a legitimate and respected leader.

You are also right in those details about economics, gold, and oil. Qaddafi was working to make Libya more modern and prosperous, as well as independent. Imagine that? An African country that wasn't a "Third World Shithole". Then, I learned of the whole Nato/American scheme to destabilize Libya, and overthrow Qaddafi, so as to create the environment for a new leader of Libya to be installed that would be more "Cooperative". Libya and Qaddafi suffered an American-orchestrated "Colour Revolution"--at the time led and coordinated by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton--which also ushered in the whole Benghazi scandal, where US CIA, diplomatic staff, and US veteran contractors were thrown under the bus and hung out to dry.

The whole sordid, corrupt affair is disgusting, tragic, and shameful. That episode--along with similar efforts coordinated by the US government in the Ukraine--supporting a "Colour Revolution" in Ukraine, because the US and NATO didn't like the current Ukrainian leader's friendship with Russia--and Ukraine's agreements with Russia concerning oil, gas, pricing, as well as diplomatic and military base agreements--opened the door there in Ukraine to deposing the Ukrainian eader, and installing a new Ukrainian leader that, of course, reversed all such policies against Russia, and opened his arms to whatever the US and NATO wanted--including EU bureaucrats chewing on the various trade policies with Russia, all designed to expand profits for NATO countries, often at Ukraine's expense, meanwhile also opening the door to establishing NATO military bases inside Ukraine and on Russia's border.

*SIGH* And we wonder why President Vladimir Putin of Russia has been belligerent against the US and NATO?

Such events like those...have really increased my skepticism and cynicism about the US government, and how deeply corrupt our government officials are with corporate types really are, all in absolute disregard for any kind of genuine morality, ethics, or even genuinely good sense and foreign policy.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well, Shark, I am more cynical with governments, I expect them to do dodgy things. But... well, it's like when someone comes to me as a trainer and talks about some fad diet or crazy workout routine, I ask, "And how's that working out for you?" If it's stupid and it works, it ain't stupid - and if it's smart and it doesn't work, it ain't smart. So... installing a new regime in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc - how's that working out? Let's be really, really cynical, and assume: you can't make omelettes without breaking eggs. Where's the omelette?

Whether the ends justify the means or not doesn't matter if you never actually achieve your ends.

With a ceasefire in that region, perhaps it's time we in the West looked closer to home. Here's a twitter thread presenting film of anti-semitic violence in the US, Britain and so on.

https://twitter.com/wokal_distance/status/1395555636650430467

The West can and should be prosperous, democratic, multicultural and peaceful. These things are constantly under threat. Oligopolies and statist governments threaten our prosperity. The woke and lockdown governments threaten our democracy. Some abusive police officers targeting ethnic minorities and some members of ethnic minorities themselves threaten our multiculturalism and peace.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 20, 2021, 11:05:37 PM
I'd also note that it's Egypt mediating a ceasefire. Egypt. Historically Egypt was the chief foe of Israel - until Carter organised a peace - and the Egyptian President Sadat paid for that with his life. But forty years later Egypt is, if not Israel's friend, at least a helpful neighbour.

It's good to be ambitious and look ahead - and obviously there is great suffering and misery in that part of the world, which we want to change. But it's also good sometimes to look back and see how far you've come. Once you realise how much things have progressed over the years, it gives you greater hope for the future.

I'm not sure how broadly you're talking about the future, but I think I agree. I am overall hopeful for the future of the world - and I think that in general, the world has gotten much better over my lifetime. The breakup of the USSR, decrease in wars, incremental improvements in the Third World, and overall advancement are all positive - and I think that overall it will get better in the future.

I think that Israel's position has much improved over the past few decades - and there have been some improvements in the Middle East in general. But specifically the Palestinian issue hasn't improved, I think.

This is nothing but another round of Israel and Palestine playing footsies. Same game since the 80s.

Some dead civilians, and of course, dead kids for the photo ops.
Lots of political handwringing.
Idiot noise on the MSM and in the UN.
Piles of money passing hands.
Rinse and repeat.

The Founding Fathers of the USA warned us to avoid ALL foreign entanglements. The ONLY country we owe anything to might be France. To the rest of the world, we were supposed to be neutral and stay the FUCK out of their business. But oh no, we just have to play World Police.

Nothing in the Middle East is our business. Zero.

As for Israel and the rest of civilization, demographics is destiny. If Israel allows their Muslim population to grow, eventually there will be no Israel. At some point, they will simply open the gates to their brothers.

But Israel's future is Israel's problem. The USA needs to learn to STFU and focus on its own collapsing nation.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 20, 2021, 11:54:40 PM
Well, Shark, I am more cynical with governments, I expect them to do dodgy things. But... well, it's like when someone comes to me as a trainer and talks about some fad diet or crazy workout routine, I ask, "And how's that working out for you?" If it's stupid and it works, it ain't stupid - and if it's smart and it doesn't work, it ain't smart. So... installing a new regime in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc - how's that working out? Let's be really, really cynical, and assume: you can't make omelettes without breaking eggs. Where's the omelette?

Whether the ends justify the means or not doesn't matter if you never actually achieve your ends.

With a ceasefire in that region, perhaps it's time we in the West looked closer to home. Here's a twitter thread presenting film of anti-semitic violence in the US, Britain and so on.

https://twitter.com/wokal_distance/status/1395555636650430467

The West can and should be prosperous, democratic, multicultural and peaceful. These things are constantly under threat. Oligopolies and statist governments threaten our prosperity. The woke and lockdown governments threaten our democracy. Some abusive police officers targeting ethnic minorities and some members of ethnic minorities themselves threaten our multiculturalism and peace.

  I do not agree about the West should be multicultural.  I would say *multicultural.   Meaning you belong to the nation you live in FIRST.  Then you can practice whatever faith or culture norms you like so long as you understand where you live first.   Meaning, if you can not leave your third world barbarian habits behind and control your fucking emotions, do not go to the West.  Multiculturalism to a point can work, but as I said in some cases it is bringing people into the boat who always row the oars backwards.   Just because someone wants to move/immigrate/break into a western nation I am not so sure it is necessary to let them in.   Again Multiculturalism/diversity in and of itself has no value.  If you come and are a person who contributes to society, Welcome, and i do not care who your friend in the sky is or what color you are.   If you are a drag on society, you need not enter.  If you show yourself to be a drag, you should be set outside the door post haste.

   Edited to add -  I also wonder how much of that video will make the mainstream media, as it is showing quite a few drawbacks of multicultural diversity simply for the sake of same.   I say this as a person who had to watch a senile retard stumble around a speech where he got mad about hate and was bringing up heather heyer dying while signing an anti asian american hate crime law.  What the media doesnt do all that often is show who is committing the hate crimes.  All I can say is White Supremacy must have a FANTASTIC recruiting program to now have black people committing acts of white supremacy.   That, and the Jewish people being beaten by what appear to be mobs of Muslims do not follow a narrative, so i would not expect much run time in mainstream media (at least in the USA).   

Well, Donald Trump's administration made some very significant gains toward middle east peace. The key was that every other administration took the position that the central negotiation had to be between Israel and Hamas; while the Trump administration correctly assessed that the real answer was to ignore the Hamas terrorist government entirely and focus on making agreements between Israel and as many Arab States as possible. In other words, isolating rather than legitimizing Hamas.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 21, 2021, 04:22:51 AMI do not agree about the West should be multicultural.  I would say *multicultural.   Meaning you belong to the nation you live in FIRST.  Then you can practice whatever faith or culture norms you like so long as you understand where you live first.   

That's multicultural. adj. Of, relating to, or including several cultures. The individual, as well, will be multicultural, so for example not merely Chinese, but Chinese-Australian - they have multiple cultures. And bear in mind that every single culture in human history has borrowed, stolen and absorbed traits from other cultures. Even in writing English it's extraordinarily difficult not to write a sentence with words derived from Latin, French, German, Greek and so on. We're mongrels, not inbreds.

Quote from: oggsmashEdited to add -  I also wonder how much of that video will make the mainstream media, as it is showing quite a few drawbacks of multicultural diversity simply for the sake of same.

I don't think that's a reflection of multiculturalism. We've had equal nastiness through this last year of covid and lockdowns across the West. It's simply that some people have nastiness waiting to come out, and it'll come out if they think it's socially acceptable to do so. So I look to the wider conditions of society.

What is it about our society that people think it's acceptable to attack people of Asian heritage because a communicable disease came from an Asian country? Or to dob in their neighbours for having a social gathering? Or to kick Jewish people in the street? Or abuse people for wearing a mask, or not wearing a mask? Or to attack Moslems because some Moslems smashed a plane into a building? Or to attack Sikhs because they mistook them for Moslems?

I don't think nastiness is confined to any particular subculture. But I do think certain conditions encourage that nastiness to come out. Poverty is one of them. Consumerist nihilism is another. Media and government propaganda still another.

Quote from: PunditDonald Trump's administration made some very significant gains toward middle east peace.

As I said, results count. I was just playing The Last of Us 2 and one of the loading screens showing up after I'd died for the tenth time said, "If your usual strategy isn't working, try something different." If a bunch of gamer nerds recognise this then diplomats should. Old Drumpf tried something different - and now there's a giant synagogue being built in an Arab country. That's something.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 21, 2021, 09:12:54 AM
Well, Donald Trump's administration made some very significant gains toward middle east peace. The key was that every other administration took the position that the central negotiation had to be between Israel and Hamas; while the Trump administration correctly assessed that the real answer was to ignore the Hamas terrorist government entirely and focus on making agreements between Israel and as many Arab States as possible. In other words, isolating rather than legitimizing Hamas.

Yep, because isolating 'the problem' (whatever it may be) is the first step in fixing it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 21, 2021, 10:31:02 AM
As I said, results count. I was just playing The Last of Us 2 and one of the loading screens showing up after I'd died for the tenth time said, "If your usual strategy isn't working, try something different." If a bunch of gamer nerds recognise this then diplomats should. Old Drumpf tried something different - and now there's a giant synagogue being built in an Arab country. That's something.

You are making the mistaken assumption that any of the previous people in charge actually wanted to lower volatility in the ME as opposed to profit or increase power from the situation.

Hell, W just crawled out from under his rock and take a look at what he felt it necessary to comment on.  The US border?  Inflation? Businesses failing? Covid issues? Massive crime rate increase?...nope..He crawled out to explain how pulling troops out of Afghanistan is a bad idea...

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 21, 2021, 10:31:02 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 21, 2021, 04:22:51 AMI do not agree about the West should be multicultural.  I would say *multicultural.   Meaning you belong to the nation you live in FIRST.  Then you can practice whatever faith or culture norms you like so long as you understand where you live first.   

That's multicultural. adj. Of, relating to, or including several cultures. The individual, as well, will be multicultural, so for example not merely Chinese, but Chinese-Australian - they have multiple cultures. And bear in mind that every single culture in human history has borrowed, stolen and absorbed traits from other cultures. Even in writing English it's extraordinarily difficult not to write a sentence with words derived from Latin, French, German, Greek and so on. We're mongrels, not inbreds.

Quote from: oggsmashEdited to add -  I also wonder how much of that video will make the mainstream media, as it is showing quite a few drawbacks of multicultural diversity simply for the sake of same.

I don't think that's a reflection of multiculturalism. We've had equal nastiness through this last year of covid and lockdowns across the West. It's simply that some people have nastiness waiting to come out, and it'll come out if they think it's socially acceptable to do so. So I look to the wider conditions of society.

What is it about our society that people think it's acceptable to attack people of Asian heritage because a communicable disease came from an Asian country? Or to dob in their neighbours for having a social gathering? Or to kick Jewish people in the street? Or abuse people for wearing a mask, or not wearing a mask? Or to attack Moslems because some Moslems smashed a plane into a building? Or to attack Sikhs because they mistook them for Moslems?

I don't think nastiness is confined to any particular subculture. But I do think certain conditions encourage that nastiness to come out. Poverty is one of them. Consumerist nihilism is another. Media and government propaganda still another.

Quote from: PunditDonald Trump's administration made some very significant gains toward middle east peace.

As I said, results count. I was just playing The Last of Us 2 and one of the loading screens showing up after I'd died for the tenth time said, "If your usual strategy isn't working, try something different." If a bunch of gamer nerds recognise this then diplomats should. Old Drumpf tried something different - and now there's a giant synagogue being built in an Arab country. That's something.

   I like the optimism, but I disagree.  Hopefully you are right long run, and I am wrong.

So why do i support israel over any islamic state? I'm a liberal, by the standards around here. I consider myself a leftist progressive who disagrees with the far left on some serious issues where i think they go top far, but i'm about as far left as you can go and still have your own views, opinions, judgments, values and mind.

So yeah by this board's standards I'm a radical liberal fanatic socialist commie nazi baby killing atheist muslim satan worshipper, and frankly wear the condemnation of a lot of people here as a badge of honor.

That said I support Israel 110%. Israel is a bastion of freedom, liberty, civilization and western culture in the midst of an ocean of barbarism known as the muslim world. And yeah, as i 'liberal" i say fuck islam, right up muhhamed's filthy ass!

Islam represents barbarism, tyranny, ignorance,  theocratic dictatorship  (Islamofascism) the utter dehumanization of women, the subjugation of non muslims if not their  extermination, and of course extermination for gays, lesbians, atheists, etc.

As what you'd call a liberal i find islam abhorrent, and i have no patience for the muslim apologists who repeat the lie that islam is a religion of peace. BULLSHIT! islam means 'submission" not peace. it means to force all to bow to islam, or be destroyed.

Israel has equal rights for women, does not persecute let alone murder LGBT types (I stopped at LGBT no matter how far the radical left went past it.) freedom for people to believe other faiths or be agnostic/atheists, etc.

As a so called liberal, i cannot understand why the left basically sucks islam's filthy, stinking, uncircumcised, goat and camel fucking, woman raping cock and spits on israel despite Israel being infinitely closer to liberal western values that any muslim rules state. FUCK ISLAM! Right up the ass with a white phosphorous grenade!

This is perhaps one of the very, very few issues i agree with rightards on, even tho i have to hold my nose to do it. Honestly given islams views on woman, gays, minority rights, freedom of speech, etc i'm amazed the american rights isn't in bed with islam. Well, we do have the talibaptists, who i would gladly see crushed just like radical islam.

As to the palisti9nians, maybe if they made peace with israel they'd be better off. Yes, they lives are a living hell of shit and misery, but israel tried to make peace with them for a long time. Finally after decades and a lot of concessions to the PLO and yassir arafat (remember either  of those) the PLO made peace with israel. What happened?

Arafat was murdered with polonium, or "Putinium" as I'd like to see it renamed as a condemnation of vladimir putin, the man who needs to be put in a box more than anyone else on earth.

The PLO disappeared and hamas appeared, announced that it would continue to attack israel as long as it existed, and all that hard won peace disappeared in a cloud of explosive residue smoke.

Yes I hate to see people with no control over a situation, especially children, suffer, but dammit israel has had  decades of being attacked by these savages and barbarians, i can't condemn them for finally saying "fuck it" and just pounding these so called 'refugees' as hard as they have to to protect their own people.

As to the current shitstorm, who the fuck is smuggling all those fucking rockets and missiles to the Palestinians? Whoever it is doesn't have a millionth as much care for palistinian children as I do, if they did they'd smuggle in food, water, medicine, etc. Instead they fucking smuggle in missiles which will result in killing of palistinians when used on israel.

Clearly they don't give a fuck about the palistinians or their children. They're using the palistinians to keep a war with israel going for their own purposes and fuck palistian children, in their view.

I' just sad to see the left in america which i am a proud part of (FUCK TRUMP!)  being so incomprehensibly incapable of seeing what side they should be on as clearly as i do. I am absolutely baffled at how the left in america can support a faction that calls for the enslavement and dehumanization of women and the extermination of LGBT people and the abolition of freedom and democracy in favor of islamofasciism. I honestly cannot understand it at fucking all...

I am a proud american leftist and a proud supporter of israel. Deal with it, fringe assholes on the left and right.

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 07:27:30 AM
As to the current shitstorm, who the fuck is smuggling all those fucking rockets and missiles to the Palestinians?

Mostly they're manufactured in Gaza. If you just want unguided rockets that go "boom", then it's not high-tech stuff. But they import the materiel and some dismantled rockets from friendly neighbouring countries, mostly Iran. They also use some reassembled Israeli duds from the last stoush they had.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hows-hamas-getting-supplies-for-rockets-and-tunnels-through-israel/

They fought in 2008, 2012, 2014, and now 2021. Essentially it takes them a few years to build up the materiel for a week or two of chucking rockets around. This is not new in history - in 1973, both sides would have had to stop fighting after a couple of weeks had they not been resupplied by the US and SU. Syria got so desperate it actually sent its air force up to fight the Israeli air force, and of course was quickly shot down - then the SU drew spare surface-to-air missiles from units in East Germany. Absent foreign supply, countries run through this stuff very, very quickly in a conflict.

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2020/09/hamas-reveal-military-secret-weapons-smuggling.html

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/05/hamas-uses-large-rocket-arsenal-latest-escalation-round-israel

There's an active insurgency going on in the Sinai, too. So the southern border's tunnels are probably getting some stuff through there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_insurgency

Just as Israel's side of the way has to do with internal Israeli politics (Bibi can't form a coalition government), so too does Hamas' side of the war, namely the conflict between Hamas and the PLO.

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/05/hamas-ignores-abbas-call-unity-government-cease-fire-holds

Hamas, having used up their missile supply agrees to a cease-fire until they can rebuild it.

If they've used it up, then on past experience we've another few years before they have another go.

wash, rinse, repeat

I wish I could remember who said it, but it's probably been said many times... anyway: both sides need the conflict. Absent the conflict, Israel is losing billions in funding and support from overseas, and has to revisit its whole siege mentality culture; and the Palestinian Authority is just another corrupt Third World dictatorship lining up with all the others to the First World with its hand out.

Psychologically it's hard to set aside a recurring conflict, particularly if you're on the losing side - just ask the Germans and Italians. But eventually people do it.

"The Netherlands" once meant to people what "the Balkans" and "the Middle East" do to us now - a place of endless conflict and misery. So things can turn around... on what timescale I wouldn't venture to guess. Again: if there were any simple easy solutions we would have implemented them already. Suffice to say that what everyone is doing is not working, so they should try something else, rather than trying to do the same thing yet again, but harder this time.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 22, 2021, 10:59:48 AM
"The Netherlands" once meant to people what "the Balkans" and "the Middle East" do to us now - a place of endless conflict and misery. So things can turn around... on what timescale I wouldn't venture to guess. Again: if there were any simple easy solutions we would have implemented them already. Suffice to say that what everyone is doing is not working, so they should try something else, rather than trying to do the same thing yet again, but harder this time.

Gee I wonder what the problem could possibly be?  That's an absolute head scratcher!  I can't think of a single reason why those two shit hole regions can't get unified like the Seven Provinces.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 22, 2021, 09:51:43 AM
Hamas, having used up their missile supply agrees to a cease-fire until they can rebuild it.

It seemed like somebody was going to run out soonish. I don't think the cease fire is any progress so much as a break to reload.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 22, 2021, 10:21:25 AM
wash, rinse, repeat

Very True
...but also very sad in the long run...

-Ed C.

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 07:27:30 AM
I am absolutely baffled at how the left in america can support a faction that calls for the enslavement and dehumanization of women and the extermination of LGBT people and the abolition of freedom and democracy in favor of islamofasciism. I honestly cannot understand it at fucking all...

That's dirt simple. Identity politics dictates that whoever is percieved to have privilige and power are the "bad guys" enforcing their hegemony. The "good guys" are excused for any faults until they achieve any amount of power and or privilige, at which point, they become the new "bad guys".

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 22, 2021, 04:25:03 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 07:27:30 AM
I am absolutely baffled at how the left in america can support a faction that calls for the enslavement and dehumanization of women and the extermination of LGBT people and the abolition of freedom and democracy in favor of islamofasciism. I honestly cannot understand it at fucking all...

That's dirt simple. Identity politics dictates that whoever is perceived to have privilige and power are the "bad guys" enforcing their hegemony. The "good guys" are excused for any faults until they achieve any amount of power and or privilige, at which point, they become the new "bad guys".

maybe that's true, but this 'liberal' chooses to identify as someone who values and respects personal liberty, human rights, civilization, etc. and therefore sides with people he identifies with. I will keep trying to convince my fellow leftists that Israel is who we should be siding with but frankly it seems about as impossible as convicting a christian that donald trump is the absolute antithesis of real  biblical teachings of jesus.

Hell, someone said, is the impossibility of reason. I swear i feel like i'm in that definition of hell sometimes. I mean, yeah, the trumptards are beyond reason aand proud of it. Inbreeding, childhood indictrination, anger, racism, hate, yeah, they can't be reasoned with, only fought and hopefully defeated.

But dammit the left is supposed to be more intelligent, reasonable, able to understand things. But the hardcases are as fucking incapable of being reasoned with as trumptards and as for the modissars on rpg.net, fuck them. it's like both sides are represented and lead by the least reasonable people and at times trying to be reasonable with them is like being in hell.

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 05:41:15 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 22, 2021, 04:25:03 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 07:27:30 AM
I am absolutely baffled at how the left in america can support a faction that calls for the enslavement and dehumanization of women and the extermination of LGBT people and the abolition of freedom and democracy in favor of islamofasciism. I honestly cannot understand it at fucking all...

That's dirt simple. Identity politics dictates that whoever is perceived to have privilige and power are the "bad guys" enforcing their hegemony. The "good guys" are excused for any faults until they achieve any amount of power and or privilige, at which point, they become the new "bad guys".

maybe that's true, but this 'liberal' chooses to identify as someone who values and respects personal liberty, human rights, civilization, etc. and therefore sides with people he identifies with. I will keep trying to convince my fellow leftists that Israel is who we should be siding with but frankly it seems about as impossible as convicting a christian that donald trump is the absolute antithesis of real  biblical teachings of jesus.

Hell, someone said, is the impossibility of reason. I swear i feel like i'm in that definition of hell sometimes. I mean, yeah, the trumptards are beyond reason aand proud of it. Inbreeding, childhood indictrination, anger, racism, hate, yeah, they can't be reasoned with, only fought and hopefully defeated.

But dammit the left is supposed to be more intelligent, reasonable, able to understand things. But the hardcases are as fucking incapable of being reasoned with as trumptards and as for the modissars on rpg.net, fuck them. it's like both sides are represented and lead by the least reasonable people and at times trying to be reasonable with them is like being in hell.

Are you not happy until every post you make is a detailed list of your personal politics?

I'm kinda tired of your kind making 'the left' out to be this big borg cube where everyone has the exact same mentality, wants the same things, etc. Sometimes you need to know we're not all hardwired into the same groupthink.

Just like there are repuvlicans who are assholes but not trump assholes, there are differences.

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 09:15:16 PM
I'm kinda tired of your kind making 'the left' out to be this big borg cube where everyone has the exact same mentality, wants the same things, etc. Sometimes you need to know we're not all hardwired into the same groupthink.

Just like there are repuvlicans who are assholes but not trump assholes, there are differences.

Outliers are irrelevant.  The "left" making the laws, running the media, infesting the university, and determining the reaction to the problems in the middle east are all in lock-stop policy-wise.  Your mistake is to assume you, or your opinions, are relevant to the definition of "left."

I think this is supposed to go here.   ;D

https://babylonbee.com/news/israel-to-buy-weapons-from-america-with-money-given-to-them-by-america-to-shoot-down-iranian-rockets-paid-for-by-america (https://babylonbee.com/news/israel-to-buy-weapons-from-america-with-money-given-to-them-by-america-to-shoot-down-iranian-rockets-paid-for-by-america)

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 07:27:30 AM
I am a proud american leftist

You're either a proud American or a leftist.

And you're a leftist. Nothing remotely American about you.

The "Left" as a category imploded in 2020. The people who actually stuck to principles, rather than capitulating to whatever arbitrary demands the ruling class incepted into their minds via mass-media induced hypnosis, is virtually nonexistent. The ruling class, of course, is neither Left nor Right, nor owes allegiance to any nation, and they don't even care about [fake] money all that much either.

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 09:15:16 PM
I'm kinda tired of your kind making 'the left' out to be this big borg cube where everyone has the exact same mentality, wants the same things, etc. Sometimes you need to know we're not all hardwired into the same groupthink.

Just like there are repuvlicans who are assholes but not trump assholes, there are differences.

Borg Cube? - Well Yeah.
The "Left" as they operate and talk the past ten years seem to want some kind of collectivist thing to happen. They tend to prefer 'group think' to indivudualism.
So, of Course they would cheerfully become part of the 'collective' known as the Borg or want to be just like them.

- Ed C.

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 05:41:15 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 22, 2021, 04:25:03 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 07:27:30 AM
I am absolutely baffled at how the left in america can support a faction that calls for the enslavement and dehumanization of women and the extermination of LGBT people and the abolition of freedom and democracy in favor of islamofasciism. I honestly cannot understand it at fucking all...

That's dirt simple. Identity politics dictates that whoever is perceived to have privilige and power are the "bad guys" enforcing their hegemony. The "good guys" are excused for any faults until they achieve any amount of power and or privilige, at which point, they become the new "bad guys".

maybe that's true, but this 'liberal' chooses to identify as someone who values and respects personal liberty, human rights, civilization, etc. and therefore sides with people he identifies with. I will keep trying to convince my fellow leftists that Israel is who we should be siding with but frankly it seems about as impossible as convicting a christian that donald trump is the absolute antithesis of real  biblical teachings of jesus.

Hell, someone said, is the impossibility of reason. I swear i feel like i'm in that definition of hell sometimes. I mean, yeah, the trumptards are beyond reason aand proud of it. Inbreeding, childhood indictrination, anger, racism, hate, yeah, they can't be reasoned with, only fought and hopefully defeated.

But dammit the left is supposed to be more intelligent, reasonable, able to understand things. But the hardcases are as fucking incapable of being reasoned with as trumptards and as for the modissars on rpg.net, fuck them. it's like both sides are represented and lead by the least reasonable people and at times trying to be reasonable with them is like being in hell.

Bolding mine.

So you respect personal liberty, unless they vote wrong in an election. Anyone who votes for a candidate you don't like is every negative thing you can think of. This is because your side that you want to identify with are all superior human beings.

Can you see what might be the source of your problems, matt?

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 09:15:16 PM
I'm kinda tired of your kind

What kind would that be?

Your kind aren't welcome in this town.

Given the circumstances, you can stay for one night, but I'd best see you saddled up and on your horse by noon tomorrow.

Quote from: yancy on May 23, 2021, 01:05:05 AM
Your kind aren't welcome in this town.

Given the circumstances, you can stay for one night, but I'd best see you saddled up and on your horse by noon tomorrow.

Buncha fuckin Droidists!

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 05:41:15 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 22, 2021, 04:25:03 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 22, 2021, 07:27:30 AM
I am absolutely baffled at how the left in america can support a faction that calls for the enslavement and dehumanization of women and the extermination of LGBT people and the abolition of freedom and democracy in favor of islamofasciism. I honestly cannot understand it at fucking all...

That's dirt simple. Identity politics dictates that whoever is perceived to have privilige and power are the "bad guys" enforcing their hegemony. The "good guys" are excused for any faults until they achieve any amount of power and or privilige, at which point, they become the new "bad guys".

maybe that's true, but this 'liberal' chooses to identify as someone who values and respects personal liberty, human rights, civilization, etc. and therefore sides with people he identifies with. I will keep trying to convince my fellow leftists that Israel is who we should be siding with but frankly it seems about as impossible as convicting a christian that donald trump is the absolute antithesis of real  biblical teachings of jesus.

Hell, someone said, is the impossibility of reason. I swear i feel like i'm in that definition of hell sometimes. I mean, yeah, the trumptards are beyond reason aand proud of it. Inbreeding, childhood indictrination, anger, racism, hate, yeah, they can't be reasoned with, only fought and hopefully defeated.

But dammit the left is supposed to be more intelligent, reasonable, able to understand things. But the hardcases are as fucking incapable of being reasoned with as trumptards and as for the modissars on rpg.net, fuck them. it's like both sides are represented and lead by the least reasonable people and at times trying to be reasonable with them is like being in hell.

The problem with leftists is that Trump gave them so much brain damage that, even if they claim to support Israel, they would rather blame the "Trumptards" then admit that Trump was right on this issue.

Supposed to be more intelligent, please.  Where is the evidence of that?

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 04:41:40 AM
Supposed to be more intelligent, please.  Where is the evidence of that?

That guy you just quoted.

He's the evidence :( :( :(

Quote from: yancy on May 23, 2021, 05:09:12 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 04:41:40 AM
Supposed to be more intelligent, please.  Where is the evidence of that?

That guy you just quoted.

He's the evidence :( :( :(

That is certainly evidence.

Not of more intelligent though

All religion is a load of old piss as far as I'm concerned.

That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands. Look at what the Irish did when England wouldn't get out of our country.

I don't condone terrorism and Hamas are a bunch of shit bags. But at the same time if you oppress a small nation, what are they going to do? Resort to terrorism.

And it's badly thought out foreign interference (with no fucking follow through) that has led to all this muck in the first place.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

  I have to LOL at the leftist being "more intelligent".   I think any real assessment of voting bases, of the ENTIRE voting bases of both sides of that are going to be a wash, or maybe not come out with as well as leftists seem to think they will.   I guess we have to have all voters take an IQ test and see how that goes.  Maybe burning down your own neighborhood consistently is some signal of galaxy brain level smarts I can not comprehend.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:31:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

Israel was founded in 1948, "Palestine" was a territory under British rule since 1918 before then. The Brits took over after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The area was a no-man's land of desert with a low population and little value before Israel. Palestine only came into existence when other Middle East nations decided that they did not like Jews living nearby and wanted to put a wedge in there. No holy books required.

And you still haven't answered my question about the motives you ascribe to Israel.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 09:22:51 AM
  I have to LOL at the leftist being "more intelligent".   I think any real assessment of voting bases, of the ENTIRE voting bases of both sides of that are going to be a wash, or maybe not come out with as well as leftists seem to think they will.   I guess we have to have all voters take an IQ test and see how that goes.  Maybe burning down your own neighborhood consistently is some signal of galaxy brain level smarts I can not comprehend.

Typically they base that assertion on college degrees. According to most polling I have seen, liberals tend to have a larger number of college degrees. Based on the idea that having a college degree equates to intelligence rather than compliance. Seeing who's and what is coming out of colleges these days, everyone has a right to be highly skeptical of that notion. It should also be noted that liberals also are diagnosed with mental illness at a much higher rate than conservatives, which I see borne out anecdotally almost daily.

Quote from: shuddemell on May 23, 2021, 09:49:41 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 09:22:51 AM
  I have to LOL at the leftist being "more intelligent".   I think any real assessment of voting bases, of the ENTIRE voting bases of both sides of that are going to be a wash, or maybe not come out with as well as leftists seem to think they will.   I guess we have to have all voters take an IQ test and see how that goes.  Maybe burning down your own neighborhood consistently is some signal of galaxy brain level smarts I can not comprehend.

Typically they base that assertion on college degrees. According to most polling I have seen, liberals tend to have a larger number of college degrees. Based on the idea that having a college degree equates to intelligence rather than compliance. Seeing who's and what is coming out of colleges these days, everyone has a right to be highly skeptical of that notion. It should also be noted that liberals also are diagnosed with mental illness at a much higher rate than conservatives, which I see borne out anecdotally almost daily.

    Maybe they can work that into their proclamations, " As the More Intelligent and Bat shit crazier side, we think xxxxx"  But yeah a degree, being how easy they are to get, doesnt look like the mental rigor test it once was.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:31:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

Israel was founded in 1948, "Palestine" was a territory under British rule since 1918 before then. The Brits took over after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The area was a no-man's land of desert with a low population and little value before Israel. Palestine only came into existence when other Middle East nations decided that they did not like Jews living nearby and wanted to put a wedge in there. No holy books required.

And you still haven't answered my question about the motives you ascribe to Israel.

No holy books required eh? Right... So that's why the Muslims love the jews. Gotcha!

And land rights over history are a very nebulous thing. But the fact is, there are generations of Palestinians and Israelis living on that land now who were born there - so we as a society recognize their rights to exist - most of the world does. Except for some of those scum Islamic theocracies.

I think Israel's actions are proof enough of their intentions.

That said, what about the humanitarian costs? You dodged my question.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 09:57:44 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:31:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

Israel was founded in 1948, "Palestine" was a territory under British rule since 1918 before then. The Brits took over after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The area was a no-man's land of desert with a low population and little value before Israel. Palestine only came into existence when other Middle East nations decided that they did not like Jews living nearby and wanted to put a wedge in there. No holy books required.

And you still haven't answered my question about the motives you ascribe to Israel.

No holy books required eh? Right... So that's why the Muslims love the jews. Gotcha!

And land rights over history are a very nebulous thing. But the fact is, there are generations of Palestinians and Israelis living on that land now who were born there - so we as a society recognize their rights to exist - most of the world does. Except for some of those scum Islamic theocracies.

I think Israel's actions are proof enough of their intentions.

That said, what about the humanitarian costs? You dodged my question.

You dance delightfully.

As far as humanitarianism is concerned, Israel doesn't hide their weapons in schools and residences in order to us the civilians there as human shields. Hamas does that. What does this tell us about the intentions of Hamas?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:31:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

Israel was founded in 1948, "Palestine" was a territory under British rule since 1918 before then. The Brits took over after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The area was a no-man's land of desert with a low population and little value before Israel. Palestine only came into existence when other Middle East nations decided that they did not like Jews living nearby and wanted to put a wedge in there. No holy books required.

And you still haven't answered my question about the motives you ascribe to Israel.

   I have a question, sort of different but similar.  Do you feel a state or States in the USA have the right (morally) to secede?    You have always struck me as the sort of fellow who could make a case that they do.  I present to you a situation where maybe in Israel they have the same case among some of these Palastinians.   People already live separately there, just slap up another fence/wall, make a border, call em a nation and move on.   Now I have a very distinct idea that even when they are their own state, none of these tensions go away.  BUT, if Palastine wants to play stupid games then, they do so as a legitmate state, and the rules are a bit different there regarding how engagement can be prosecuted.  Maybe it would go better for everyone should Palestine become a state, my feelings are it goes worse, MUCH worse for Palestine down the road, but let them do so and just see.  As mentioned what everyone has tried does not work.  Try something new.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:01:39 AM
As far as humanitarianism is concerned, Israel doesn't hide their weapons in schools and residences in order to us the civilians there as human shields.

Nice... Another dodge.

Everyone knows hamas are a bunch of cnuts. So what's your point? Again, I'm talking about the regular folks on the ground.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:03:14 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:31:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

Israel was founded in 1948, "Palestine" was a territory under British rule since 1918 before then. The Brits took over after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The area was a no-man's land of desert with a low population and little value before Israel. Palestine only came into existence when other Middle East nations decided that they did not like Jews living nearby and wanted to put a wedge in there. No holy books required.

And you still haven't answered my question about the motives you ascribe to Israel.

   I have a question, sort of different but similar.  Do you feel a state or States in the USA have the right (morally) to secede?    You have always struck me as the sort of fellow who could make a case that they do.  I present to you a situation where maybe in Israel they have the same case among some of these Palastinians.   People already live separately there, just slap up another fence/wall, make a border, call em a nation and move on.   Now I have a very distinct idea that even when they are their own state, none of these tensions go away.  BUT, if Palastine wants to play stupid games then, they do so as a legitmate state, and the rules are a bit different there regarding how engagement can be prosecuted.  Maybe it would go better for everyone should Palestine become a state, my feelings are it goes worse, MUCH worse for Palestine down the road, but let them do so and just see.  As mentioned what everyone has tried does not work.  Try something new.

Yes, each state in the United States has the moral right to secede. How practical that may be in actuality is up for question.

Should Palestine become a legitimate state, then I think that things would go very bad for the civilians there. I can see Iran immediately aligning with them in order to attack Israel overtly instead of the low intensity conflict that has been going on between the two nations. Iran would get their ass kicked at great loss to their military and this would cause the conflict to escalate with allies getting involved on both sides (while in the US it would provide a lot of division as pro-Israel Republicans and anti-Israel Democrats began fighting over it). I see it as a lose-lose all of the way around. 

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:03:14 AM

I have a question, sort of different but similar.  Do you feel a state or States in the USA have the right (morally) to secede?    You have always struck me as the sort of fellow who could make a case that they do.  I present to you a situation where maybe in Israel they have the same case among some of these Palastinians.   People already live separately there, just slap up another fence/wall, make a border, call em a nation and move on.   Now I have a very distinct idea that even when they are their own state, none of these tensions go away.  BUT, if Palastine wants to play stupid games then, they do so as a legitmate state, and the rules are a bit different there regarding how engagement can be prosecuted.  Maybe it would go better for everyone should Palestine become a state, my feelings are it goes worse, MUCH worse for Palestine down the road, but let them do so and just see.  As mentioned what everyone has tried does not work.  Try something new.

I'm no fan of the Palestine's regime either... I'd have no problem with Israel walling that place up as long as they have access to that mosque or whatever. Otherwise it would stoke more flames.

I don't think there's anything that the Israelis could do to satiate Islam's thirst for blood against them. But it would defintly calm shit down, and there would be WAY less international support for Islam. At the moment Israel is just creating the next generation of moronic terrorists (which also affects us around the world).

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 10:05:24 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:01:39 AM
As far as humanitarianism is concerned, Israel doesn't hide their weapons in schools and residences in order to us the civilians there as human shields.

Nice... Another dodge.

Everyone knows hamas are a bunch of cnuts. So what's your point? Again, I'm talking about the regular folks on the ground.

The regular folks on the ground are the ones being used as human shields by Hamas. Israel doesn't use human shields. Point for Israel.

Now, this is your last chance to answer my question since I answered yours.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:14:51 AM
Should Palestine become a legitimate state, then I think that things would go very bad for the civilians there. I can see Iran immediately aligning with them in order to attack Israel overtly instead of the low intensity conflict that has been going on between the two nations. Iran would get their ass kicked at great loss to their military and this would cause the conflict to escalate with allies getting involved on both sides (while in the US it would provide a lot of division as pro-Israel Republicans and anti-Israel Democrats began fighting over it). I see it as a lose-lose all of the way around.

Iran 'overtly' attacking Israel? Never ever going to happen.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:14:51 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:03:14 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:31:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

Israel was founded in 1948, "Palestine" was a territory under British rule since 1918 before then. The Brits took over after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The area was a no-man's land of desert with a low population and little value before Israel. Palestine only came into existence when other Middle East nations decided that they did not like Jews living nearby and wanted to put a wedge in there. No holy books required.

And you still haven't answered my question about the motives you ascribe to Israel.

   I have a question, sort of different but similar.  Do you feel a state or States in the USA have the right (morally) to secede?    You have always struck me as the sort of fellow who could make a case that they do.  I present to you a situation where maybe in Israel they have the same case among some of these Palastinians.   People already live separately there, just slap up another fence/wall, make a border, call em a nation and move on.   Now I have a very distinct idea that even when they are their own state, none of these tensions go away.  BUT, if Palastine wants to play stupid games then, they do so as a legitmate state, and the rules are a bit different there regarding how engagement can be prosecuted.  Maybe it would go better for everyone should Palestine become a state, my feelings are it goes worse, MUCH worse for Palestine down the road, but let them do so and just see.  As mentioned what everyone has tried does not work.  Try something new.

Yes, each state in the United States has the moral right to secede. How practical that may be in actuality is up for question.

Should Palestine become a legitimate state, then I think that things would go very bad for the civilians there. I can see Iran immediately aligning with them in order to attack Israel overtly instead of the low intensity conflict that has been going on between the two nations. Iran would get their ass kicked at great loss to their military and this would cause the conflict to escalate with allies getting involved on both sides (while in the US it would provide a lot of division as pro-Israel Republicans and anti-Israel Democrats began fighting over it). I see it as a lose-lose all of the way around.

    You can make exactly the same case for a state seceding though.  Exactly, with regard to how bad it could go for the people living in that state.  I also think the for or against regarding Israel is presented extremely white and black, reality is most democrats also support Israel (and they have the deposits in campaign accounts to prove it) and only those splinters of the "new blood" are vocal against it.   The Establishment is very pro Israel is very well paid to be so.   This is where I begin to have some issue, when that sort of money is pumped to politicians and their campaigns I wonder if there may be things we do not get to know.  Thus I am a 100 percent hands off.  let them work it out, I honestly think Israel fully capable of sorting this out.  Without having over 2/3s of the US congress constantly going on and on about how much they support Israel.  Republicans fund walls, borders and immigration policy for Israel, yet cant be bothered at home.  I want their priorities rearranged.   All of them. 

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:18:01 AM
The regular folks on the ground are the ones being used as human shields by Hamas. Israel doesn't use human shields. Point for Israel.

Now, this is your last chance to answer my question since I answered yours.

Okay... I'll try it again. We know Hamas are coontz. We know they use every dirty tactic in the book. So you're just stating the obvious which I already know. Hamas are terrorists plain and simple.

Now, one could also say that the Israelis are guilty of police killings (targeting young teenagers, etc), false imprisonment, excessive force, and very little consideration for collateral damage. Plus there 'right wing' wants all of the Palestinian's land.

When considering a two-state solution, it might be useful to look to see if something similar has been tried before.

Of note, the UN Partition Plan for Palestine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine) in 1947 was not desperately different to the current Israel-PA borders (excepting an Arab Acre in the north, an Arab chunk of the border with Egypt, and Jaffa being Arab). The issue was that both the Jewish and Arab states would have been in three chunks, each broken up at a pinch point with the other. The Jewish delegation accepted this, but the Arabs did not, and Arab nations voted against it in the UN.

Had they accepted it, it's hard to see it being a lasting situation. Having parts of your country separated by parts of another country can only last when you're good friends - like Canada separating most of the US from Alaska. It doesn't work well when the countries are unfriendly, as we saw historically with India and West and East Pakistan. As well as West and East Pakistan, we also have the example of West Berlin, surrounded by East Germany - Jaffa would have been in a similar situation.

If one country separates another, a breakdown in relations lets them cut the country into parts with a blockade, and of the several parts there's bound to be a poorer part that will suffer without contact with the wealthier part. And if two countries each separate the other, that doubles your chance of some sort of blockade at some point.

This would be why the UN plan had economic union between the Jewish and Arab regions, to (in theory) reduce the number of things they might argue about, and make it too costly for them to engage in a conflict.

The ensuing 74 years of conflict to reach essentially the same solution as 1947 does not give us reason for great hope for that particular solution, I think.

It seems that the only time disparate peoples can be united is if there is a democratic secular government with a long history (eg US, Australia), an authoritarian secular government (eg Saddam's Iraq), or an authoritarian colonial master (eg Ottomans over Palestine).

Interestingly, by some accounts the King of Jordan offered to have a Jewish state in Palestine (as opposed to of Palestine), which he would rule over as part of Jordan (as he later did with the West Bank and East Jerusalem). Looking back that wasn't such a bad idea - though inevitably Jewish migration to Palestine would have eventually led to the same sort of terror and insurgency as Jewish groups carried out against the British, and the Arabs against Turkish rule.

The major difficulty for the King of Jordan was the Deir Yassin massacre, the reaction to which made it impossible for him to be accommodating with the Jewish delegation. Which is a good example of how it never helps to have your soldiers commit atrocities, it will always fuck you in the long run.

Anyway: outside rule is historically the only time this area's had any peace. Not really a realistic prospect now. But then, neither is an authoritarian secular leader taking over both regions, and as for a secular democracy with a long history, well Israel isn't really secular, and the PA is neither secular nor a democracy.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 23, 2021, 10:34:41 AM
When considering a two-state solution, it might be useful to look to see if something similar has been tried before.

Of note, the UN Partition Plan for Palestine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine) in 1947 was not desperately different to the current Israel-PA borders (excepting an Arab Acre in the north, an Arab chunk of the border with Egypt, and Jaffa being Arab). The issue was that both the Jewish and Arab states would have been in three chunks, each broken up at a pinch point with the other. The Jewish delegation accepted this, but the Arabs did not, and Arab nations voted against it in the UN.

Had they accepted it, it's hard to see it being a lasting situation. Having parts of your country separated by parts of another country can only last when you're good friends - like Canada separating most of the US from Alaska. It doesn't work well when the countries are unfriendly, as we saw historically with India and West and East Pakistan. As well as West and East Pakistan, we also have the example of West Berlin, surrounded by East Germany - Jaffa would have been in a similar situation.

If one country separates another, a breakdown in relations lets them cut the country into parts with a blockade, and of the several parts there's bound to be a poorer part that will suffer without contact with the wealthier part. And if two countries each separate the other, that doubles your chance of some sort of blockade at some point.

This would be why the UN plan had economic union between the Jewish and Arab regions, to (in theory) reduce the number of things they might argue about, and make it too costly for them to engage in a conflict.

The ensuing 74 years of conflict to reach essentially the same solution as 1947 does not give us reason for great hope for that particular solution, I think.

It seems that the only time disparate peoples can be united is if there is a democratic secular government with a long history (eg US, Australia), an authoritarian secular government (eg Saddam's Iraq), or an authoritarian colonial master (eg Ottomans over Palestine).

Interestingly, by some accounts the King of Jordan offered to have a Jewish state in Palestine (as opposed to of Palestine), which he would rule over as part of Jordan (as he later did with the West Bank and East Jerusalem). Looking back that wasn't such a bad idea - though inevitably Jewish migration to Palestine would have eventually led to the same sort of terror and insurgency as Jewish groups carried out against the British, and the Arabs against Turkish rule.

The major difficulty for the King of Jordan was the Deir Yassin massacre, the reaction to which made it impossible for him to be accommodating with the Jewish delegation. Which is a good example of how it never helps to have your soldiers commit atrocities, it will always fuck you in the long run.

Anyway: outside rule is historically the only time this area's had any peace. Not really a realistic prospect now. But then, neither is an authoritarian secular leader taking over both regions, and as for a secular democracy with a long history, well Israel isn't really secular, and the PA is neither secular nor a democracy.

   This is likely the reality.   When two different religions are BOTH the super special chosen Master of all under God, well somebody has to be wrong/a liar/needs to die.   I agree this is the real problem and because it is, there will NEVER be anything that looks like harmony there.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 10:25:46 AM
Now, one could also say that the Israelis are guilty of police killings (targeting young teenagers, etc), false imprisonment, excessive force, and very little consideration for collateral damage. Plus there 'right wing' wants all of the Palestinian's land.

So where is the proof of all this? Got any links?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:10:47 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 10:25:46 AM
Now, one could also say that the Israelis are guilty of police killings (targeting young teenagers, etc), false imprisonment, excessive force, and very little consideration for collateral damage. Plus there 'right wing' wants all of the Palestinian's land.

So where is the proof of all this? Got any links?

Let me google that for you.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:21:30 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:14:51 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:03:14 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:31:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

Israel was founded in 1948, "Palestine" was a territory under British rule since 1918 before then. The Brits took over after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The area was a no-man's land of desert with a low population and little value before Israel. Palestine only came into existence when other Middle East nations decided that they did not like Jews living nearby and wanted to put a wedge in there. No holy books required.

And you still haven't answered my question about the motives you ascribe to Israel.

   I have a question, sort of different but similar.  Do you feel a state or States in the USA have the right (morally) to secede?    You have always struck me as the sort of fellow who could make a case that they do.  I present to you a situation where maybe in Israel they have the same case among some of these Palastinians.   People already live separately there, just slap up another fence/wall, make a border, call em a nation and move on.   Now I have a very distinct idea that even when they are their own state, none of these tensions go away.  BUT, if Palastine wants to play stupid games then, they do so as a legitmate state, and the rules are a bit different there regarding how engagement can be prosecuted.  Maybe it would go better for everyone should Palestine become a state, my feelings are it goes worse, MUCH worse for Palestine down the road, but let them do so and just see.  As mentioned what everyone has tried does not work.  Try something new.

Yes, each state in the United States has the moral right to secede. How practical that may be in actuality is up for question.

Should Palestine become a legitimate state, then I think that things would go very bad for the civilians there. I can see Iran immediately aligning with them in order to attack Israel overtly instead of the low intensity conflict that has been going on between the two nations. Iran would get their ass kicked at great loss to their military and this would cause the conflict to escalate with allies getting involved on both sides (while in the US it would provide a lot of division as pro-Israel Republicans and anti-Israel Democrats began fighting over it). I see it as a lose-lose all of the way around.

    You can make exactly the same case for a state seceding though.  Exactly, with regard to how bad it could go for the people living in that state.  I also think the for or against regarding Israel is presented extremely white and black, reality is most democrats also support Israel (and they have the deposits in campaign accounts to prove it) and only those splinters of the "new blood" are vocal against it.   The Establishment is very pro Israel is very well paid to be so.   This is where I begin to have some issue, when that sort of money is pumped to politicians and their campaigns I wonder if there may be things we do not get to know.  Thus I am a 100 percent hands off.  let them work it out, I honestly think Israel fully capable of sorting this out.  Without having over 2/3s of the US congress constantly going on and on about how much they support Israel.  Republicans fund walls, borders and immigration policy for Israel, yet cant be bothered at home.  I want their priorities rearranged.   All of them.

This is where I think the situations are not similar. There are counties in Oregon that are trying to secede and become a part of Idaho because they are tired of the ruinous leftist democrat policies in their state. There are no terrorist activities in those counties, no equivalent of Hamas, unless you count voting to be a illicit method of bringing about change. Even if it just a gesture, it is a decidedly different one than Hamas is making towards Israel.

NPR
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/20/998660102/oregone-7-oregon-counties-vote-to-back-seceding-so-citizens-can-vote-gop-in-idah

New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/21/us/oregon-idaho-secession.html

Seattle Times
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/their-own-private-idaho-5-oregon-counties-back-a-plan-to-secede/

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 11:11:45 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:10:47 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 10:25:46 AM
Now, one could also say that the Israelis are guilty of police killings (targeting young teenagers, etc), false imprisonment, excessive force, and very little consideration for collateral damage. Plus there 'right wing' wants all of the Palestinian's land.

So where is the proof of all this? Got any links?

Let me google that for you.

Please do, because right now you are just talking out of your ass.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:19:26 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 11:11:45 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:10:47 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 10:25:46 AM
Now, one could also say that the Israelis are guilty of police killings (targeting young teenagers, etc), false imprisonment, excessive force, and very little consideration for collateral damage. Plus there 'right wing' wants all of the Palestinian's land.

So where is the proof of all this? Got any links?

Let me google that for you.

Please do, because right now you are just talking out of your ass.

I'm happy to talk out of my ass (as well as most of the other countries too!). Were all wrong of course.

So what are you going to do about it? Nout'. :)

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:18:13 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:21:30 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:14:51 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:03:14 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:31:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

Israel was founded in 1948, "Palestine" was a territory under British rule since 1918 before then. The Brits took over after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The area was a no-man's land of desert with a low population and little value before Israel. Palestine only came into existence when other Middle East nations decided that they did not like Jews living nearby and wanted to put a wedge in there. No holy books required.

And you still haven't answered my question about the motives you ascribe to Israel.

   I have a question, sort of different but similar.  Do you feel a state or States in the USA have the right (morally) to secede?    You have always struck me as the sort of fellow who could make a case that they do.  I present to you a situation where maybe in Israel they have the same case among some of these Palastinians.   People already live separately there, just slap up another fence/wall, make a border, call em a nation and move on.   Now I have a very distinct idea that even when they are their own state, none of these tensions go away.  BUT, if Palastine wants to play stupid games then, they do so as a legitmate state, and the rules are a bit different there regarding how engagement can be prosecuted.  Maybe it would go better for everyone should Palestine become a state, my feelings are it goes worse, MUCH worse for Palestine down the road, but let them do so and just see.  As mentioned what everyone has tried does not work.  Try something new.

Yes, each state in the United States has the moral right to secede. How practical that may be in actuality is up for question.

Should Palestine become a legitimate state, then I think that things would go very bad for the civilians there. I can see Iran immediately aligning with them in order to attack Israel overtly instead of the low intensity conflict that has been going on between the two nations. Iran would get their ass kicked at great loss to their military and this would cause the conflict to escalate with allies getting involved on both sides (while in the US it would provide a lot of division as pro-Israel Republicans and anti-Israel Democrats began fighting over it). I see it as a lose-lose all of the way around.

    You can make exactly the same case for a state seceding though.  Exactly, with regard to how bad it could go for the people living in that state.  I also think the for or against regarding Israel is presented extremely white and black, reality is most democrats also support Israel (and they have the deposits in campaign accounts to prove it) and only those splinters of the "new blood" are vocal against it.   The Establishment is very pro Israel is very well paid to be so.   This is where I begin to have some issue, when that sort of money is pumped to politicians and their campaigns I wonder if there may be things we do not get to know.  Thus I am a 100 percent hands off.  let them work it out, I honestly think Israel fully capable of sorting this out.  Without having over 2/3s of the US congress constantly going on and on about how much they support Israel.  Republicans fund walls, borders and immigration policy for Israel, yet cant be bothered at home.  I want their priorities rearranged.   All of them.

This is where I think the situations are not similar. There are counties in Oregon that are trying to secede and become a part of Idaho because they are tired of the ruinous leftist democrat policies in their state. There are no terrorist activities in those counties, no equivalent of Hamas, unless you count voting to be a illicit method of bringing about change. Even if it just a gesture, it is a decidedly different one than Hamas is making towards Israel.

NPR
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/20/998660102/oregone-7-oregon-counties-vote-to-back-seceding-so-citizens-can-vote-gop-in-idah

New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/21/us/oregon-idaho-secession.html

Seattle Times
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/their-own-private-idaho-5-oregon-counties-back-a-plan-to-secede/

  Different stages.   Shitting on Shiff's desk has been equated to 9/11.   I would also say there WILL be things that will be called terrorism for certain if the secession talk keeps going.  USA is very early stage of any of this happening.   Let's see how it plays out in 20.

This tweet aged badly.

(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/E2Ek1wTVkAA8_GJ.png)

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 11:26:52 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:18:13 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:21:30 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:14:51 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:03:14 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:31:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

Israel was founded in 1948, "Palestine" was a territory under British rule since 1918 before then. The Brits took over after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The area was a no-man's land of desert with a low population and little value before Israel. Palestine only came into existence when other Middle East nations decided that they did not like Jews living nearby and wanted to put a wedge in there. No holy books required.

And you still haven't answered my question about the motives you ascribe to Israel.

   I have a question, sort of different but similar.  Do you feel a state or States in the USA have the right (morally) to secede?    You have always struck me as the sort of fellow who could make a case that they do.  I present to you a situation where maybe in Israel they have the same case among some of these Palastinians.   People already live separately there, just slap up another fence/wall, make a border, call em a nation and move on.   Now I have a very distinct idea that even when they are their own state, none of these tensions go away.  BUT, if Palastine wants to play stupid games then, they do so as a legitmate state, and the rules are a bit different there regarding how engagement can be prosecuted.  Maybe it would go better for everyone should Palestine become a state, my feelings are it goes worse, MUCH worse for Palestine down the road, but let them do so and just see.  As mentioned what everyone has tried does not work.  Try something new.

Yes, each state in the United States has the moral right to secede. How practical that may be in actuality is up for question.

Should Palestine become a legitimate state, then I think that things would go very bad for the civilians there. I can see Iran immediately aligning with them in order to attack Israel overtly instead of the low intensity conflict that has been going on between the two nations. Iran would get their ass kicked at great loss to their military and this would cause the conflict to escalate with allies getting involved on both sides (while in the US it would provide a lot of division as pro-Israel Republicans and anti-Israel Democrats began fighting over it). I see it as a lose-lose all of the way around.

    You can make exactly the same case for a state seceding though.  Exactly, with regard to how bad it could go for the people living in that state.  I also think the for or against regarding Israel is presented extremely white and black, reality is most democrats also support Israel (and they have the deposits in campaign accounts to prove it) and only those splinters of the "new blood" are vocal against it.   The Establishment is very pro Israel is very well paid to be so.   This is where I begin to have some issue, when that sort of money is pumped to politicians and their campaigns I wonder if there may be things we do not get to know.  Thus I am a 100 percent hands off.  let them work it out, I honestly think Israel fully capable of sorting this out.  Without having over 2/3s of the US congress constantly going on and on about how much they support Israel.  Republicans fund walls, borders and immigration policy for Israel, yet cant be bothered at home.  I want their priorities rearranged.   All of them.

This is where I think the situations are not similar. There are counties in Oregon that are trying to secede and become a part of Idaho because they are tired of the ruinous leftist democrat policies in their state. There are no terrorist activities in those counties, no equivalent of Hamas, unless you count voting to be a illicit method of bringing about change. Even if it just a gesture, it is a decidedly different one than Hamas is making towards Israel.

NPR
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/20/998660102/oregone-7-oregon-counties-vote-to-back-seceding-so-citizens-can-vote-gop-in-idah

New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/21/us/oregon-idaho-secession.html

Seattle Times
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/their-own-private-idaho-5-oregon-counties-back-a-plan-to-secede/

  Different stages.   Shitting on Shiff's desk has been equated to 9/11.   I would also say there WILL be things that will be called terrorism for certain if the secession talk keeps going.  USA is very early stage of any of this happening.   Let's see how it plays out in 20.

Who equated shitting on Shiff's desk to 9/11? That's some hyperbolic comparing right there!

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 11:23:58 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:19:26 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 11:11:45 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:10:47 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 10:25:46 AM
Now, one could also say that the Israelis are guilty of police killings (targeting young teenagers, etc), false imprisonment, excessive force, and very little consideration for collateral damage. Plus there 'right wing' wants all of the Palestinian's land.

So where is the proof of all this? Got any links?

Let me google that for you.

Please do, because right now you are just talking out of your ass.

I'm happy to talk out of my ass (as well as most of the other countries too!). Were all wrong of course.

So what are you going to do about it? Nout'. :)

Consign you to the dustbin of people not worth having a conversation with.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 12:17:03 PM


Consign you to the dustbin of people not worth having a conversation with.

I'd appreciate that... And please do that from now on on, and on all threads too.

I see no point engaging with oxygen thieves.

Bye!

We'll see if counties in Oregon will be permitted to move to Idaho. Unfortunately I'm confident no state or other region will ever be permitted to secede from the US itself.

It's clearly necessary that certain regions in the US are just too culturally different and a peaceful separation is the only way to prevent conflict. The problem is, the people who are driving the conflict are also relentlessly imperialistic and can't tolerate other people with different ideas & ways of life existing anywhere.

Quote from: Zelen on May 23, 2021, 12:53:21 PM
We'll see if counties in Oregon will be permitted to move to Idaho. Unfortunately I'm confident no state or other region will ever be permitted to secede from the US itself.

It's clearly necessary that certain regions in the US are just too culturally different and a peaceful separation is the only way to prevent conflict. The problem is, the people who are driving the conflict are also relentlessly imperialistic and can't tolerate other people with different ideas & ways of life existing anywhere.

Yes, I've come to believe Lincoln did the US no favors. Enforcing the Union with violence led to the greatest loss of life in US history, and turned the secession into an idea  tantamount to treason. What he should have done is what most other Western countries did with their slaves: Buy them, and set them free, while reaffirming that the United States are in a voluntary union. Ending slavery that way would have been a huge financial burden (cf. Britain), but it would have led to little or no loss of life, and eliminated the animus that divides the nation to this day.

Quote from: Zelen on May 23, 2021, 12:53:21 PM
We'll see if counties in Oregon will be permitted to move to Idaho. Unfortunately I'm confident no state or other region will ever be permitted to secede from the US itself.

It's clearly necessary that certain regions in the US are just too culturally different and a peaceful separation is the only way to prevent conflict. The problem is, the people who are driving the conflict are also relentlessly imperialistic and can't tolerate other people with different ideas & ways of life existing anywhere.

Frankly i agree, and at this point i'd love to see the trump right take the old confederate states and secede. Why should us blue states pay texas' outrageous electricity bills in a crisis that texas voters created? I'd love it is texas, alabama, kentucky, mississippi, lousisana and a few other inbred red states seceded and form their own country, call is donaldtrumpistan, jeezusland, 'MURCA, whatthefuckever.

In fact i think blue states should begin lobbying their congressmen to bring up bills allowing  states to secede, because i think we'd be better off without the states i mentioned above, let 'em go, small ya later, we won't miss you.

Obviously the people in those states who aren't inbred morons will migrate to  what will remain America, the the fucktards in America can shamble on down to the new country.

We couldn't let these hominds have any nuclear weapons of course.

Seriously, maybe this time the  north should allow the south to secede. We'll be better off without them, and they can all go to hell as their new states becomes what their God  trump referred to as a "shithole".

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:18:01 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 10:05:24 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:01:39 AM
As far as humanitarianism is concerned, Israel doesn't hide their weapons in schools and residences in order to us the civilians there as human shields.

Nice... Another dodge.

Everyone knows hamas are a bunch of cnuts. So what's your point? Again, I'm talking about the regular folks on the ground.

The regular folks on the ground are the ones being used as human shields by Hamas. Israel doesn't use human shields. Point for Israel.

Now, this is your last chance to answer my question since I answered yours.

I absolutely have to agree with you. I'm completely on the side of israel in this conflict as stated earlier. Plus the Israelies aren't training children to be suicide bombers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups

Quote from: The Thing on May 23, 2021, 02:59:28 PM

I absolutely have to agree with you. I'm completely on the side of israel in this conflict as stated earlier. Plus the Israelies aren't training children to be suicide bombers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups

Would you make up your mind damnit - either you like Jeff or you hate Jeff - you seem to be going back and forth.

- Ed C

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:18:13 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:21:30 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 10:14:51 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 10:03:14 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:31:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 08:19:20 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
That said, the Israeli government are now thieving more land then they were given (well, they've been doing it since the six day war). And are using overwhelming force to do so. They feel their 'religion' gives them the right to as well.

Can you link us to anything that proves this?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Islam is a load of shit too. But at the same time you can't blame the Palestinians for wanting to exist in their own lands.

Did Palestine as a nation even exist prior to Israel being established?

Yurm... As I don't believe in any holy books or shamans, are any of these 'established places' really legitimate? So, if Israel are encroaching on other's land it would seem to be theft. Can you show me some evidence that they are not? Also, the international community recognizes the existence of Palestine. For whatever that's worth.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to exist in their 'ancestral home' according to some shamans in some holy books?

I'm only interested int he humanitarian cost. And it does'nt seem all that equal between the two sides.

Israel was founded in 1948, "Palestine" was a territory under British rule since 1918 before then. The Brits took over after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The area was a no-man's land of desert with a low population and little value before Israel. Palestine only came into existence when other Middle East nations decided that they did not like Jews living nearby and wanted to put a wedge in there. No holy books required.

And you still haven't answered my question about the motives you ascribe to Israel.

   I have a question, sort of different but similar.  Do you feel a state or States in the USA have the right (morally) to secede?    You have always struck me as the sort of fellow who could make a case that they do.  I present to you a situation where maybe in Israel they have the same case among some of these Palastinians.   People already live separately there, just slap up another fence/wall, make a border, call em a nation and move on.   Now I have a very distinct idea that even when they are their own state, none of these tensions go away.  BUT, if Palastine wants to play stupid games then, they do so as a legitmate state, and the rules are a bit different there regarding how engagement can be prosecuted.  Maybe it would go better for everyone should Palestine become a state, my feelings are it goes worse, MUCH worse for Palestine down the road, but let them do so and just see.  As mentioned what everyone has tried does not work.  Try something new.

Yes, each state in the United States has the moral right to secede. How practical that may be in actuality is up for question.

Should Palestine become a legitimate state, then I think that things would go very bad for the civilians there. I can see Iran immediately aligning with them in order to attack Israel overtly instead of the low intensity conflict that has been going on between the two nations. Iran would get their ass kicked at great loss to their military and this would cause the conflict to escalate with allies getting involved on both sides (while in the US it would provide a lot of division as pro-Israel Republicans and anti-Israel Democrats began fighting over it). I see it as a lose-lose all of the way around.

    You can make exactly the same case for a state seceding though.  Exactly, with regard to how bad it could go for the people living in that state.  I also think the for or against regarding Israel is presented extremely white and black, reality is most democrats also support Israel (and they have the deposits in campaign accounts to prove it) and only those splinters of the "new blood" are vocal against it.   The Establishment is very pro Israel is very well paid to be so.   This is where I begin to have some issue, when that sort of money is pumped to politicians and their campaigns I wonder if there may be things we do not get to know.  Thus I am a 100 percent hands off.  let them work it out, I honestly think Israel fully capable of sorting this out.  Without having over 2/3s of the US congress constantly going on and on about how much they support Israel.  Republicans fund walls, borders and immigration policy for Israel, yet cant be bothered at home.  I want their priorities rearranged.   All of them.

This is where I think the situations are not similar. There are counties in Oregon that are trying to secede and become a part of Idaho because they are tired of the ruinous leftist democrat policies in their state. There are no terrorist activities in those counties, no equivalent of Hamas, unless you count voting to be a illicit method of bringing about change. Even if it just a gesture, it is a decidedly different one than Hamas is making towards Israel.

NPR
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/20/998660102/oregone-7-oregon-counties-vote-to-back-seceding-so-citizens-can-vote-gop-in-idah

New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/21/us/oregon-idaho-secession.html

Seattle Times
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/their-own-private-idaho-5-oregon-counties-back-a-plan-to-secede/

You seem to think that only leftist policies are bad. Remember when texas had that massive power failure because right wing policies would not let texas link to either of the national power grids because that would mean federal regulations? Remember when texas power corporate oligarchs were charging people hundreds or even thousands of dollars a day for electricity when they didn't have it thanks to their 'free market' policies which the far right texas government passed?

Also, if you want an example of where rightist polices can lead a state, even hear of the kansas experiment?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_experiment

Basically the right had enough power in kansas to pull a full on rightwing economic plan, massive taxcuts and deregulations for the rich and big businesses. As always, it was said the taxcuts would pay for themselves with increased economic growth, and as always, the opposite happened.

Quote from: Koltar on May 23, 2021, 03:07:07 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 23, 2021, 02:59:28 PM

I absolutely have to agree with you. I'm completely on the side of israel in this conflict as stated earlier. Plus the Israelies aren't training children to be suicide bombers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups

Would you make up your mind damnit - either you like Jeff or you hate Jeff - you seem to be going back and forth.

- Ed C

unlike you i can acknowledge when someone i don't like is right. Now would you kindly fuck off?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 11:23:58 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:19:26 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 11:11:45 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 23, 2021, 11:10:47 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 10:25:46 AM
Now, one could also say that the Israelis are guilty of police killings (targeting young teenagers, etc), false imprisonment, excessive force, and very little consideration for collateral damage. Plus there 'right wing' wants all of the Palestinian's land.

So where is the proof of all this? Got any links?

Let me google that for you.

Please do, because right now you are just talking out of your ass.

I'm happy to talk out of my ass (as well as most of the other countries too!). Were all wrong of course.

So what are you going to do about it? Nout'. :)

at last a brother in spirit. welcome friend

Quote from: The Thing on May 23, 2021, 03:12:31 PM

You seem to think that only leftist policies are bad. Remember when texas had that massive power failure because right wing policies would not let texas link to either of the national power grids because that would mean federal regulations? Remember when texas power corporate oligarchs were charging people hundreds or even thousands of dollars a day for electricity when they didn't have it thanks to their 'free market' policies which the far right texas government passed?

So in your world, an agency like ERCOT is an example of the free market? Central planning is now capitalism?

By that logic, Israel is a secular third world state with no history.

Quote from: Koltar on May 23, 2021, 03:07:07 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 23, 2021, 02:59:28 PM

I absolutely have to agree with you. I'm completely on the side of israel in this conflict as stated earlier. Plus the Israelies aren't training children to be suicide bombers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups

Would you make up your mind damnit - either you like Jeff or you hate Jeff - you seem to be going back and forth.

- Ed C

Awwww, is everybody's favorite Klingon cosplayer going to be a matchmaker now?

Quote from: The Thing on May 23, 2021, 03:12:31 PM
You seem to think that only leftist policies are bad. Remember when texas had that massive power failure because right wing policies would not let texas link to either of the national power grids because that would mean federal regulations? Remember when texas power corporate oligarchs were charging people hundreds or even thousands of dollars a day for electricity when they didn't have it thanks to their 'free market' policies which the far right texas government passed?

Remember every year when California has rolling black outs?

Damn shit hole countries something something republicans.

Quote from: The Thing on May 23, 2021, 02:51:37 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 23, 2021, 12:53:21 PM
We'll see if counties in Oregon will be permitted to move to Idaho. Unfortunately I'm confident no state or other region will ever be permitted to secede from the US itself.

It's clearly necessary that certain regions in the US are just too culturally different and a peaceful separation is the only way to prevent conflict. The problem is, the people who are driving the conflict are also relentlessly imperialistic and can't tolerate other people with different ideas & ways of life existing anywhere.

Frankly i agree, and at this point i'd love to see the trump right take the old confederate states and secede. Why should us blue states pay texas' outrageous electricity bills in a crisis that texas voters created? I'd love it is texas, alabama, kentucky, mississippi, lousisana and a few other inbred red states seceded and form their own country, call is donaldtrumpistan, jeezusland, 'MURCA, whatthefuckever.

In fact i think blue states should begin lobbying their congressmen to bring up bills allowing  states to secede, because i think we'd be better off without the states i mentioned above, let 'em go, small ya later, we won't miss you.

Obviously the people in those states who aren't inbred morons will migrate to  what will remain America, the the fucktards in America can shamble on down to the new country.

We couldn't let these hominds have any nuclear weapons of course.

Seriously, maybe this time the  north should allow the south to secede. We'll be better off without them, and they can all go to hell as their new states becomes what their God  trump referred to as a "shithole".

Life is hard, but it's harder when you're stupid, Matt.

I know you like to believe in the fairy tale that the blue 'enlightened' states are pure paradise. You might consider the fact that those are also the states where thuggery (of the pro-Antifa/BLM, anti-Jewish, anti-Asian flavors) is running wild.

So by all means, leave.

But don't come back.

Quote from: The Thing on May 23, 2021, 02:59:28 PM
I absolutely have to agree with you. I'm completely on the side of israel in this conflict as stated earlier. Plus the Israelies aren't training children to be suicide bombers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups

I think you're missing the point (or my point at least). I hate Hamas and any other militant Islamic terrorist groups, especially any that radicalize children (they should be annihilated). In fact, I'm not a 'fan' of the middle east at all.

That said, Israel are no saints either... (lots of documentation out there if you care to look). But from a humanitarian perspective, and that's all I really care about in this conflict.  I'm concerned about the casualties of innocents on both sides. However, Israel cause far more damage then the Palestinians do.

And Israel's tactics are questionable (and so are Hamas's of course). At the end of the day, it would be the equivalent of me slapping around a ten year old child. IE - no contest.

And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

Of course both those idiotic religions, and their shaman want each other 'not to exist'... So that does'nt really help things.

Greetings!

Leftists are more intelligent, educated, and reasonable? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

More like brainwashed by Marxism, full of self-loathing, hatred, racism, and dreams of tyrannical power and social control.

These same allegedly educated Libtards that fall on the ground, sobbing, and claiming they need their stuffed animal in order to cope with TRUMPISM?

The same smug, jello-brained morons that think "Communism has never been done right!"? These same smug, cock-sucking morons that think they know more about Communism than people that have actually lived under Communist tyranny and escaped to the West for liberty?

The same cock-sucking Libtards that believe that "feelings" are more real and important than facts, reason, and logic?

The same Libtards that join with BLM and ANTIFA to murder, rob, burn and loot American cities?

The same super-duper educated Libtard geniuses that think it's all good and fine to let tens of thousands of dangerous criminals out of prison, early, and to unleash them on normal, good, law-abiding society? Because the fucking criminals might be exposed to the China Virus? Somehow, in the mind of a brainwashed, cock-sucking Libtard though, it's better to inflict more dangerous criminals on society than have a chance that such criminals might be exposed to the fucking China Virus. Geesus. What fucking morons.

The same Libtard jackasses that believe it is good to PUNISH BUSINESSES and rape them with higher taxes--thereby causing many of them to leave your state in DROVES--like California--and then, of course, the absence of such businesses creates more UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE ON POVERTY and sucking on the government's tit? Yeah, which the Libtard morons then insist--of course--that the solution must be to raise taxes even MORE! ;D

You have to be entirely delusional. Libtards aren't intelligent or educated much at all. They are brainwashed into Marxism, group-think, virtue signaling, social validation, and racism. All the while believing themselves to be part of the frosting elite that deserves to rule over the unwashed masses.

Yeah, keep swallowing that rainbow fucking jello.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:14:30 PM
And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

If Israel is trying to "get rid" of all "arabs" from "Jewish land"  then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

If you want to look at countries that are great for "getting rid" of people then look at literally any muslim country and count how many Jewish people are still there.

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 07:22:52 PM
Greetings!
More like brainwashed by Marxism, full of self-loathing, hatred, racism, and dreams of tyrannical power and social control.

I actually agree with you here... Describes those weird 'American Leftists'. Who I wouldn't actually even consider left but more akin to strident Stalinist's.

I've always described myself and an old school leftie (70s UK era) which bears absolutely no resemblance to the shit we are seeing now from those American pseudo nu left.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 07:28:34 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:14:30 PM
And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

If Israel is trying to "get rid" of all "arabs" from "Jewish land"  then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

If you want to look at countries that are great for "getting rid" of people then look at literally any muslim country and count how many Jewish people are still there.

You're doing again... Do you think, I actually like those fundamental Islamic countries? You need to read a few posts back lad.

And yes, the Israelis have their own agenda just like the islamists.

Quote from: The Thing on May 23, 2021, 02:51:37 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 23, 2021, 12:53:21 PM
We'll see if counties in Oregon will be permitted to move to Idaho. Unfortunately I'm confident no state or other region will ever be permitted to secede from the US itself.

It's clearly necessary that certain regions in the US are just too culturally different and a peaceful separation is the only way to prevent conflict. The problem is, the people who are driving the conflict are also relentlessly imperialistic and can't tolerate other people with different ideas & ways of life existing anywhere.

Frankly i agree, and at this point i'd love to see the trump right take the old confederate states and secede. Why should us blue states pay texas' outrageous electricity bills in a crisis that texas voters created? I'd love it is texas, alabama, kentucky, mississippi, lousisana and a few other inbred red states seceded and form their own country, call is donaldtrumpistan, jeezusland, 'MURCA, whatthefuckever.

In fact i think blue states should begin lobbying their congressmen to bring up bills allowing  states to secede, because i think we'd be better off without the states i mentioned above, let 'em go, small ya later, we won't miss you.

Obviously the people in those states who aren't inbred morons will migrate to  what will remain America, the the fucktards in America can shamble on down to the new country.

We couldn't let these hominds have any nuclear weapons of course.

Seriously, maybe this time the  north should allow the south to secede. We'll be better off without them, and they can all go to hell as their new states becomes what their God  trump referred to as a "shithole".

      Given the condition of the bluest states, I would be very, very careful about tossing around the term shithole too loosely.  There is a good reason they are losing people.  I would also say seek counseling about the hang up on inbreeding, as you seem to feel VERY taken with the concept.  Seems classic projection.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:31:46 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 07:28:34 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:14:30 PM
And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

If Israel is trying to "get rid" of all "arabs" from "Jewish land"  then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

If you want to look at countries that are great for "getting rid" of people then look at literally any muslim country and count how many Jewish people are still there.

You're doing again... Do you think, I actually like those fundamental Islamic countries? You need to read a few posts back lad.

And yes, the Israelis have their own agenda just like the islamists.

Where are the Chinese-style work genocide camps set up in Israel?

I mean lets look at the top 10 "currently getting rid of people" countries and see if Israel makes it.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 09:08:11 PM

Where are the Chinese-style work genocide camps set up in Israel?

I mean lets look at the top 10 "currently getting rid of people" countries and see if Israel makes it.

Yeah, that's great and all, but what has that got to do with the price of piss? Nice whataboutisim there. But I'll byte. China is a big place and they don't answer to 'international pressure'.

Re. Israel, it doesn't matter how fast, or on what scale they are doing it. But they are doing it.... By encroachment.

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 07:22:52 PM
Greetings!

Leftists are more intelligent, educated, and reasonable? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

More like brainwashed by Marxism, full of self-loathing, hatred, racism, and dreams of tyrannical power and social control.

These same allegedly educated Libtards that fall on the ground, sobbing, and claiming they need their stuffed animal in order to cope with TRUMPISM?

The same smug, jello-brained morons that think "Communism has never been done right!"? These same smug, cock-sucking morons that think they know more about Communism than people that have actually lived under Communist tyranny and escaped to the West for liberty?

The same cock-sucking Libtards that believe that "feelings" are more real and important than facts, reason, and logic?

The same Libtards that join with BLM and ANTIFA to murder, rob, burn and loot American cities?

The same super-duper educated Libtard geniuses that think it's all good and fine to let tens of thousands of dangerous criminals out of prison, early, and to unleash them on normal, good, law-abiding society? Because the fucking criminals might be exposed to the China Virus? Somehow, in the mind of a brainwashed, cock-sucking Libtard though, it's better to inflict more dangerous criminals on society than have a chance that such criminals might be exposed to the fucking China Virus. Geesus. What fucking morons.

The same Libtard jackasses that believe it is good to PUNISH BUSINESSES and rape them with higher taxes--thereby causing many of them to leave your state in DROVES--like California--and then, of course, the absence of such businesses creates more UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE ON POVERTY and sucking on the government's tit? Yeah, which the Libtard morons then insist--of course--that the solution must be to raise taxes even MORE! ;D

You have to be entirely delusional. Libtards aren't intelligent or educated much at all. They are brainwashed into Marxism, group-think, virtue signaling, social validation, and racism. All the while believing themselves to be part of the frosting elite that deserves to rule over the unwashed masses.

Yeah, keep swallowing that rainbow fucking jello.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

i have questions:

are there Marxists/Leftists/Libtards that do not suck cock

if not, is this an intrinsic quality of Marxism/leftism/libtards, e.g. there cannot be cock-sucking centrists/Republicans/Nazis

if no, what distinguishes cock-sucking from non-cock-sucking varieties

if yes, then why do they never suck my cock :C

Quote from: This Guy on May 23, 2021, 11:58:03 PM
i have questions:

are there Marxists/Leftists/Libtards that do not suck cock

if not, is this an intrinsic quality of Marxism/leftism/libtards, e.g. there cannot be cock-sucking centrists/Republicans/Nazis

if no, what distinguishes cock-sucking from non-cock-sucking varieties

if yes, then why do they never suck my cock :C

I have answers, to which I've added helpful numerals which may or may not correspond to the sequence in which you asked your questions:

1. No
2. It is intrinsic to marxists/leftists/libtards, but is not exclusive to them. So while they all suck cock, that does not preclude the possibility of cocksuckers in other groups. The Venn diagram that I sent you via PM goes into more detail, click the .exe file attached to the message to read it.
3. ^^^^
4. Your mom keeps beating them to it

Quote from: yancy on May 24, 2021, 07:15:05 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 23, 2021, 11:58:03 PM
i have questions:

are there Marxists/Leftists/Libtards that do not suck cock

if not, is this an intrinsic quality of Marxism/leftism/libtards, e.g. there cannot be cock-sucking centrists/Republicans/Nazis

if no, what distinguishes cock-sucking from non-cock-sucking varieties

if yes, then why do they never suck my cock :C

I have answers, to which I've added helpful numerals which may or may not correspond to the sequence in which you asked your questions:

1. No
2. It is intrinsic to marxists/leftists/libtards, but is not exclusive to them. So while they all suck cock, that does not preclude the possibility of cocksuckers in other groups. The Venn diagram that I sent you via PM goes into more detail, click the .exe file attached to the message to read it.
3. ^^^^
4. Your mom keeps beating them to it

Greetings!

*Beautiful* Yancy! ;D Perfect response! *Laughing* ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: This Guy on May 23, 2021, 11:58:03 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 07:22:52 PM
Greetings!

Leftists are more intelligent, educated, and reasonable? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

More like brainwashed by Marxism, full of self-loathing, hatred, racism, and dreams of tyrannical power and social control.

These same allegedly educated Libtards that fall on the ground, sobbing, and claiming they need their stuffed animal in order to cope with TRUMPISM?

The same smug, jello-brained morons that think "Communism has never been done right!"? These same smug, cock-sucking morons that think they know more about Communism than people that have actually lived under Communist tyranny and escaped to the West for liberty?

The same cock-sucking Libtards that believe that "feelings" are more real and important than facts, reason, and logic?

The same Libtards that join with BLM and ANTIFA to murder, rob, burn and loot American cities?

The same super-duper educated Libtard geniuses that think it's all good and fine to let tens of thousands of dangerous criminals out of prison, early, and to unleash them on normal, good, law-abiding society? Because the fucking criminals might be exposed to the China Virus? Somehow, in the mind of a brainwashed, cock-sucking Libtard though, it's better to inflict more dangerous criminals on society than have a chance that such criminals might be exposed to the fucking China Virus. Geesus. What fucking morons.

The same Libtard jackasses that believe it is good to PUNISH BUSINESSES and rape them with higher taxes--thereby causing many of them to leave your state in DROVES--like California--and then, of course, the absence of such businesses creates more UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE ON POVERTY and sucking on the government's tit? Yeah, which the Libtard morons then insist--of course--that the solution must be to raise taxes even MORE! ;D

You have to be entirely delusional. Libtards aren't intelligent or educated much at all. They are brainwashed into Marxism, group-think, virtue signaling, social validation, and racism. All the while believing themselves to be part of the frosting elite that deserves to rule over the unwashed masses.

Yeah, keep swallowing that rainbow fucking jello.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

i have questions:

are there Marxists/Leftists/Libtards that do not suck cock

if not, is this an intrinsic quality of Marxism/leftism/libtards, e.g. there cannot be cock-sucking centrists/Republicans/Nazis

if no, what distinguishes cock-sucking from non-cock-sucking varieties

if yes, then why do they never suck my cock :C

https://youtu.be/LQCU36pkH7c

Quote from: yancy on May 24, 2021, 07:15:05 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 23, 2021, 11:58:03 PM
i have questions:

are there Marxists/Leftists/Libtards that do not suck cock

if not, is this an intrinsic quality of Marxism/leftism/libtards, e.g. there cannot be cock-sucking centrists/Republicans/Nazis

if no, what distinguishes cock-sucking from non-cock-sucking varieties

if yes, then why do they never suck my cock :C

I have answers, to which I've added helpful numerals which may or may not correspond to the sequence in which you asked your questions:

1. No
2. It is intrinsic to marxists/leftists/libtards, but is not exclusive to them. So while they all suck cock, that does not preclude the possibility of cocksuckers in other groups. The Venn diagram that I sent you via PM goes into more detail, click the .exe file attached to the message to read it.
3. ^^^^
4. Your mom keeps beating them to it

what kind of faggot doesn't let their mom suck your cock, weren't you raised right?

also does this Venn diagram include marines because I've heard stories.

Quote from: The Thing on May 24, 2021, 07:57:37 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 23, 2021, 11:58:03 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 07:22:52 PM
Greetings!

Leftists are more intelligent, educated, and reasonable? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

More like brainwashed by Marxism, full of self-loathing, hatred, racism, and dreams of tyrannical power and social control.

These same allegedly educated Libtards that fall on the ground, sobbing, and claiming they need their stuffed animal in order to cope with TRUMPISM?

The same smug, jello-brained morons that think "Communism has never been done right!"? These same smug, cock-sucking morons that think they know more about Communism than people that have actually lived under Communist tyranny and escaped to the West for liberty?

The same cock-sucking Libtards that believe that "feelings" are more real and important than facts, reason, and logic?

The same Libtards that join with BLM and ANTIFA to murder, rob, burn and loot American cities?

The same super-duper educated Libtard geniuses that think it's all good and fine to let tens of thousands of dangerous criminals out of prison, early, and to unleash them on normal, good, law-abiding society? Because the fucking criminals might be exposed to the China Virus? Somehow, in the mind of a brainwashed, cock-sucking Libtard though, it's better to inflict more dangerous criminals on society than have a chance that such criminals might be exposed to the fucking China Virus. Geesus. What fucking morons.

The same Libtard jackasses that believe it is good to PUNISH BUSINESSES and rape them with higher taxes--thereby causing many of them to leave your state in DROVES--like California--and then, of course, the absence of such businesses creates more UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE ON POVERTY and sucking on the government's tit? Yeah, which the Libtard morons then insist--of course--that the solution must be to raise taxes even MORE! ;D

You have to be entirely delusional. Libtards aren't intelligent or educated much at all. They are brainwashed into Marxism, group-think, virtue signaling, social validation, and racism. All the while believing themselves to be part of the frosting elite that deserves to rule over the unwashed masses.

Yeah, keep swallowing that rainbow fucking jello.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

i have questions:

are there Marxists/Leftists/Libtards that do not suck cock

if not, is this an intrinsic quality of Marxism/leftism/libtards, e.g. there cannot be cock-sucking centrists/Republicans/Nazis

if no, what distinguishes cock-sucking from non-cock-sucking varieties

if yes, then why do they never suck my cock :C

https://youtu.be/LQCU36pkH7c

thanks buddy i've always dreamed of a post of mine getting that response. <3

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 09:26:41 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 09:08:11 PM

Where are the Chinese-style work genocide camps set up in Israel?

I mean lets look at the top 10 "currently getting rid of people" countries and see if Israel makes it.

Yeah, that's great and all, but what has that got to do with the price of piss? Nice whataboutisim there. But I'll byte. China is a big place and they don't answer to 'international pressure'.

Re. Israel, it doesn't matter how fast, or on what scale they are doing it. But they are doing it.... By encroachment.

Encroachment?  Yeah thats a war crime that is.

Come back to me when you got something real.

Quote from: This Guy on May 23, 2021, 11:58:03 PM
if yes, then why do they never suck my cock :C

Have you tried grinder rather then therpgsite?

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 04:50:14 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 23, 2021, 11:58:03 PM
if yes, then why do they never suck my cock :C

Have you tried grinder rather then therpgsite?

they have enough of the same letters it's fine

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 07:28:34 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:14:30 PM
And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

If Israel is trying to "get rid" of all "arabs" from "Jewish land"  then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

If you want to look at countries that are great for "getting rid" of people then look at literally any muslim country and count how many Jewish people are still there.

You an i are in sync in this. I will support israel over any muslim tribe with a flag. The israelis tired rfor lears to make peace with the PLO, they did, it disappeared and up pops hamas, vowing to destroy israel.

This shit in on the palis and the peiople backing them, israel is defending itself against savage fanatics.

Also i'd say israel is showing more restraint that some wester nations did. England used poison gas against the africans in the boer war, and on russian troops in the war just after ww1.The boers weren't a threat to England, england just wanted to rule their land separated by an ocean from theirs. The russuian troops were fighting an internal civil war.

What america and england did to dresden in ww2  was a fucking war crime, and completely unnecessary at the time. Bomber haris jsut wanted revenge on germany.

israel is a saint compared to either of those atrocities.

of course i don't expect most of the shtilords here to get any of those refs, they're too busy getting their talking points from alex jones and aren't capable of much more than "librtards suck kokk!" relies.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 04:48:21 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 09:26:41 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 09:08:11 PM

Where are the Chinese-style work genocide camps set up in Israel?

I mean lets look at the top 10 "currently getting rid of people" countries and see if Israel makes it.

Yeah, that's great and all, but what has that got to do with the price of piss? Nice whataboutisim there. But I'll byte. China is a big place and they don't answer to 'international pressure'.

Re. Israel, it doesn't matter how fast, or on what scale they are doing it. But they are doing it.... By encroachment.

Encroachment?  Yeah thats a war crime that is.

Come back to me when you got something real.

Nice dodge! LOOOL

Just another Q-anon knob head.

Quote from: The Thing on May 24, 2021, 07:06:21 PM

I will support israel over any muslim tribe with a flag.

Generally I'd agree with you... I much prefer Israel over any other country in the middle-east (well, they are the best out of a bad lot). I'm not a fan of any religion but I certainly detest Islam.

But I'd question the Israels hard tactics when it comes to the average Palestinian.

The Average Palestinian supports Hamas and cheers for the stabbing of Jewish grandmothers.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/songs-in-praise-of-stabbing-are-huge-hits-on-palestinian-street-and-may-be-motivators-too/ (https://www.timesofisrael.com/songs-in-praise-of-stabbing-are-huge-hits-on-palestinian-street-and-may-be-motivators-too/)

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/palestinian-cartoons-praise-tel-aviv-stabbing-attack-388440

(https://images.jpost.com/image/upload/f_auto,fl_lossy/t_JD_ArticleMainImage/271474)

(https://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=271473)


And don't forget, this:




Only one side has children's shows teaching their kids to "shoot all" the people on the other side.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 24, 2021, 07:41:35 PM
The Average Palestinian supports Hamas and cheers for the stabbing of Jewish grandmothers.

Some of that is certainly true, but lets not forget about the Israel's right wing. They'd probably feel the exact same.

My point is that religion is muck. And a lot of those Palestinian kids and youths, are being brought up and lead by vile people. Which is further stoked by Israel stealing more of their land - it's a never ending cycle. But I still feel that Israel over stepped the mark with their policy of expansion (to put it politely) and via their hard line tactics.

I mean if they were just bombing Hamas I'd be patting them on the back. But they are not.

That's one topic I stayed away from due to being ignorant of the facts. I did mute a bunch of woke gaming influencers on social media as they were siding with Palestine, including IGN staff which then had its fundraiser taken down by its parent company.

I saw all the woke youth being pro Palestine, and depending what news channel you watch you're told different versions of who's right and who's wrong. So, I just sat back and tried to educate myself on the matter. Unfortunately it made me even more confused.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on May 24, 2021, 08:26:51 PM
Unfortunately it made me even more confused.

There is no easy answer unfortunately. And holy books and shamans don't validate anything as far as I'm concerned.

And both sides have blood on their hands. Plus, Hamas are scum.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on May 24, 2021, 08:26:51 PMI did mute a bunch of woke gaming influencers on social media as they were siding with Palestine

This is strange to me, that people running a company feel the need to have a political position - but only on certain things.

If you as a company have a position on Israel-Palestine, okay. Ongoing conflicts are important. Now, what is your position on the Yemeni Crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Crisis_(2011%E2%80%93present)), which has caused a quarter of a million deaths in 6 years? How do you feel about the Tigray War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigray_War)? How about what's going on in Myanmar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_conflict_in_Myanmar)? How about the Somali Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Civil_War)?

How about the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_conflict), which led to a brief war between Armenia and Azerbaijan earlier, and might have drawn Turkey and Russia into war - and thus, by Turkey's membership of NATO, become WWIII? The Syrian Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war), which again with the involvement of both Russia and the US might turn into a wider conflict if we're not careful?

And so on and so forth. There are many conflicts involving Asians, which apparently nobody cares about. There are many conflicts involving Africans, which certainly nobody in the West cares about. And there are conflicts involving Arabs, which Westerners mostly don't care about. And several of these conflicts have the active involvement of Western troops, or are funded and equipped by Westerners. But we don't care about them.

It's just that conflict with the Jews we care passionately about. Funny, that.

Companies also feel the need to say that black lives matter (only if they're killed by whites, not if they're being killed by other blacks). But they don't seem particularly concerned with saying that poor people should have housing, or children shouldn't be abused, or refugees should be accepted, or...

So... is this really about justice and concern for human lives, or is it just fashionable virtue signalling?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 24, 2021, 08:59:03 PM
It's just that conflict with the Jews we care passionately about. Funny, that.

I to find the lack of calling out the Saudis over Yeman and the chopping up journalists very odd. But like Hamas the Saudi Regime is as evil as it gets. But the West like their cash, so they won't ever go too hard on them.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 24, 2021, 08:59:03 PM

Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on May 24, 2021, 08:26:51 PMI did mute a bunch of woke gaming influencers on social media as they were siding with Palestine

This is strange to me, that people running a company feel the need to have a political position - but only on certain things.

Imho their interest is definitely not in the humanitarian aspect of things. I kept asking myself, do these young people even know who or what are they supporting!? I guess their desperation for followers and profits is much higher priority than any humanitarian crisis. In the end I believe IGN's parent company took the right decision in taking the link down. Companies should absolutely not, under any circumstance attempt to get involved, influence, weight in on any world crisis. That's why people elect leaders. Next thing you know Coca-cola is running the world. Unfortunately this is a trend that caused more harm than good to society.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 24, 2021, 07:50:31 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 24, 2021, 07:41:35 PM
The Average Palestinian supports Hamas and cheers for the stabbing of Jewish grandmothers.

Some of that is certainly true, but lets not forget about the Israel's right wing. They'd probably feel the exact same.

My point is that religion is muck. And a lot of those Palestinian kids and youths, are being brought up and lead by vile people. Which is further stoked by Israel stealing more of their land - it's a never ending cycle. But I still feel that Israel over stepped the mark with their policy of expansion (to put it politely) and via their hard line tactics.

I mean if they were just bombing Hamas I'd be patting them on the back. But they are not.

I once thought similarly. Would it be any better if people killed each other for purely secular reasons? All the woke cultism has convinced me that you don't need religion to inspire awfulness in people, and that people would just seek other justifications.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2021, 09:42:18 PM
All the woke cultism has convinced me that you don't need religion to inspire awfulness in people, and that people would just seek other justifications.

No that is a concept I can get behind... But then again, I have very little faith in humanity.

Quote from: The Thing on May 24, 2021, 07:06:21 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 07:28:34 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:14:30 PM
And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

If Israel is trying to "get rid" of all "arabs" from "Jewish land"  then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

If you want to look at countries that are great for "getting rid" of people then look at literally any muslim country and count how many Jewish people are still there.

You an i are in sync in this. I will support israel over any muslim tribe with a flag. The israelis tired rfor lears to make peace with the PLO, they did, it disappeared and up pops hamas, vowing to destroy israel.

This shit in on the palis and the peiople backing them, israel is defending itself against savage fanatics.

Also i'd say israel is showing more restraint that some wester nations did. England used poison gas against the africans in the boer war, and on russian troops in the war just after ww1.The boers weren't a threat to England, england just wanted to rule their land separated by an ocean from theirs. The russuian troops were fighting an internal civil war.

What america and england did to dresden in ww2  was a fucking war crime, and completely unnecessary at the time. Bomber haris jsut wanted revenge on germany.

israel is a saint compared to either of those atrocities.

of course i don't expect most of the shtilords here to get any of those refs, they're too busy getting their talking points from alex jones and aren't capable of much more than "librtards suck kokk!" relies.

I haven't seen you put forth much better. You seem to be here to simply hang around with people you claim to hate, and make a political stink so everyone knows how smelly your shit is.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 24, 2021, 07:07:28 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 04:48:21 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 09:26:41 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 09:08:11 PM

Where are the Chinese-style work genocide camps set up in Israel?

I mean lets look at the top 10 "currently getting rid of people" countries and see if Israel makes it.

Yeah, that's great and all, but what has that got to do with the price of piss? Nice whataboutisim there. But I'll byte. China is a big place and they don't answer to 'international pressure'.

Re. Israel, it doesn't matter how fast, or on what scale they are doing it. But they are doing it.... By encroachment.

Encroachment?  Yeah thats a war crime that is.

Come back to me when you got something real.

Nice dodge! LOOOL

Just another Q-anon knob head.

Ha.

Wait your serious?

Hahahaha

Watch out for the Qanons, they coming for ya.  :o

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:21:56 PM
Watch out for the Qanons, they coming for ya.  :o

It's okay... I'm vaccinated.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2021, 09:44:57 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 24, 2021, 07:06:21 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 07:28:34 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:14:30 PM
And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

If Israel is trying to "get rid" of all "arabs" from "Jewish land"  then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

If you want to look at countries that are great for "getting rid" of people then look at literally any muslim country and count how many Jewish people are still there.

You an i are in sync in this. I will support israel over any muslim tribe with a flag. The israelis tired rfor lears to make peace with the PLO, they did, it disappeared and up pops hamas, vowing to destroy israel.

This shit in on the palis and the peiople backing them, israel is defending itself against savage fanatics.

Also i'd say israel is showing more restraint that some wester nations did. England used poison gas against the africans in the boer war, and on russian troops in the war just after ww1.The boers weren't a threat to England, england just wanted to rule their land separated by an ocean from theirs. The russuian troops were fighting an internal civil war.

What america and england did to dresden in ww2  was a fucking war crime, and completely unnecessary at the time. Bomber haris jsut wanted revenge on germany.

israel is a saint compared to either of those atrocities.

of course i don't expect most of the shtilords here to get any of those refs, they're too busy getting their talking points from alex jones and aren't capable of much more than "librtards suck kokk!" relies.

I haven't seen you put forth much better. You seem to be here to simply hang around with people you claim to hate, and make a political stink so everyone knows how smelly your shit is.

oh what we're gonna judge people here for that now

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:21:56 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 24, 2021, 07:07:28 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 04:48:21 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 09:26:41 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 09:08:11 PM

Where are the Chinese-style work genocide camps set up in Israel?

I mean lets look at the top 10 "currently getting rid of people" countries and see if Israel makes it.

Yeah, that's great and all, but what has that got to do with the price of piss? Nice whataboutisim there. But I'll byte. China is a big place and they don't answer to 'international pressure'.

Re. Israel, it doesn't matter how fast, or on what scale they are doing it. But they are doing it.... By encroachment.

Encroachment?  Yeah thats a war crime that is.

Come back to me when you got something real.

Nice dodge! LOOOL

Just another Q-anon knob head.

Ha.

Wait your serious?

Hahahaha

Watch out for the Qanons, they coming for ya.  :o

sounds good maybe more copsll kill themselves that way

Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 10:35:55 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2021, 09:44:57 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 24, 2021, 07:06:21 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 07:28:34 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:14:30 PM
And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

If Israel is trying to "get rid" of all "arabs" from "Jewish land"  then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

If you want to look at countries that are great for "getting rid" of people then look at literally any muslim country and count how many Jewish people are still there.

You an i are in sync in this. I will support israel over any muslim tribe with a flag. The israelis tired rfor lears to make peace with the PLO, they did, it disappeared and up pops hamas, vowing to destroy israel.

This shit in on the palis and the peiople backing them, israel is defending itself against savage fanatics.

Also i'd say israel is showing more restraint that some wester nations did. England used poison gas against the africans in the boer war, and on russian troops in the war just after ww1.The boers weren't a threat to England, england just wanted to rule their land separated by an ocean from theirs. The russuian troops were fighting an internal civil war.

What america and england did to dresden in ww2  was a fucking war crime, and completely unnecessary at the time. Bomber haris jsut wanted revenge on germany.

israel is a saint compared to either of those atrocities.

of course i don't expect most of the shtilords here to get any of those refs, they're too busy getting their talking points from alex jones and aren't capable of much more than "librtards suck kokk!" relies.

I haven't seen you put forth much better. You seem to be here to simply hang around with people you claim to hate, and make a political stink so everyone knows how smelly your shit is.

oh what we're gonna judge people here for that now

Just you, sweetheart. If you wanna whine about other posters, then I think you're open season for others to whine about you.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 24, 2021, 10:22:53 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:21:56 PM
Watch out for the Qanons, they coming for ya.  :o

It's okay... I'm vaccinated.

And now they know exactly where you are sucker.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:53:02 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 24, 2021, 10:22:53 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:21:56 PM
Watch out for the Qanons, they coming for ya.  :o

It's okay... I'm vaccinated.

And now they know exactly where you are sucker.

Oh... I hope they find me, and I can say 'hello' to them in person.

Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 10:36:45 PM
sounds good maybe more copsll kill themselves that way

That is the way it works, right?

Step 1: Defund the police and support terrorism

Step 2: To be decided

Step 3: More Cops kill themselves

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 24, 2021, 10:55:07 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:53:02 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 24, 2021, 10:22:53 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:21:56 PM
Watch out for the Qanons, they coming for ya.  :o

It's okay... I'm vaccinated.

And now they know exactly where you are sucker.

Oh... I hope they find me, and I can say 'hello' to them in person.

Yeah you do.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:57:16 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 24, 2021, 10:55:07 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:53:02 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 24, 2021, 10:22:53 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:21:56 PM
Watch out for the Qanons, they coming for ya.  :o

It's okay... I'm vaccinated.

And now they know exactly where you are sucker.

Oh... I hope they find me, and I can say 'hello' to them in person.

Yeah you do.

I think I'll be waiting for a looong time.

Go Israel, Go!!!

Quote from: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 10:56:04 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 10:36:45 PM
sounds good maybe more copsll kill themselves that way

That is the way it works, right?

Step 1: Defund the police and support terrorism

Step 2: To be decided

Step 3: More Cops kill themselves

step 2 is get rushed at federal buildings by mostly peaceful patriots. small success rate on the dry run but there'll be more.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2021, 10:49:57 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 10:35:55 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2021, 09:44:57 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 24, 2021, 07:06:21 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 07:28:34 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:14:30 PM
And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

If Israel is trying to "get rid" of all "arabs" from "Jewish land"  then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

If you want to look at countries that are great for "getting rid" of people then look at literally any muslim country and count how many Jewish people are still there.

You an i are in sync in this. I will support israel over any muslim tribe with a flag. The israelis tired rfor lears to make peace with the PLO, they did, it disappeared and up pops hamas, vowing to destroy israel.

This shit in on the palis and the peiople backing them, israel is defending itself against savage fanatics.

Also i'd say israel is showing more restraint that some wester nations did. England used poison gas against the africans in the boer war, and on russian troops in the war just after ww1.The boers weren't a threat to England, england just wanted to rule their land separated by an ocean from theirs. The russuian troops were fighting an internal civil war.

What america and england did to dresden in ww2  was a fucking war crime, and completely unnecessary at the time. Bomber haris jsut wanted revenge on germany.

israel is a saint compared to either of those atrocities.

of course i don't expect most of the shtilords here to get any of those refs, they're too busy getting their talking points from alex jones and aren't capable of much more than "librtards suck kokk!" relies.

I haven't seen you put forth much better. You seem to be here to simply hang around with people you claim to hate, and make a political stink so everyone knows how smelly your shit is.

oh what we're gonna judge people here for that now

Just you, sweetheart. If you wanna whine about other posters, then I think you're open season for others to whine about you.

nah i am a protected category due to special needs, which is why the biggest whiners already ignored me

but for real this is a place built on hating shit, just because everybody else goes out looking for links to post here to get mad about doesn't make me much different. i just went straight to the source.

Quote from: This Guy on May 25, 2021, 12:23:25 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2021, 10:49:57 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 10:35:55 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2021, 09:44:57 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 24, 2021, 07:06:21 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 07:28:34 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:14:30 PM
And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

If Israel is trying to "get rid" of all "arabs" from "Jewish land"  then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

If you want to look at countries that are great for "getting rid" of people then look at literally any muslim country and count how many Jewish people are still there.

You an i are in sync in this. I will support israel over any muslim tribe with a flag. The israelis tired rfor lears to make peace with the PLO, they did, it disappeared and up pops hamas, vowing to destroy israel.

This shit in on the palis and the peiople backing them, israel is defending itself against savage fanatics.

Also i'd say israel is showing more restraint that some wester nations did. England used poison gas against the africans in the boer war, and on russian troops in the war just after ww1.The boers weren't a threat to England, england just wanted to rule their land separated by an ocean from theirs. The russuian troops were fighting an internal civil war.

What america and england did to dresden in ww2  was a fucking war crime, and completely unnecessary at the time. Bomber haris jsut wanted revenge on germany.

israel is a saint compared to either of those atrocities.

of course i don't expect most of the shtilords here to get any of those refs, they're too busy getting their talking points from alex jones and aren't capable of much more than "librtards suck kokk!" relies.

I haven't seen you put forth much better. You seem to be here to simply hang around with people you claim to hate, and make a political stink so everyone knows how smelly your shit is.

oh what we're gonna judge people here for that now

Just you, sweetheart. If you wanna whine about other posters, then I think you're open season for others to whine about you.

nah i am a protected category due to special needs, which is why the biggest whiners already ignored me

but for real this is a place built on hating shit, just because everybody else goes out looking for links to post here to get mad about doesn't make me much different. i just went straight to the source.

Maybe if half the RPG 'community' hadn't gone crazypants, we'd content ourselves with rehashing old chestnusts like alignment or weapon speeds.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 24, 2021, 08:59:03 PM

Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on May 24, 2021, 08:26:51 PMI did mute a bunch of woke gaming influencers on social media as they were siding with Palestine

This is strange to me, that people running a company feel the need to have a political position - but only on certain things.

If you as a company have a position on Israel-Palestine, okay. Ongoing conflicts are important. Now, what is your position on the Yemeni Crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Crisis_(2011%E2%80%93present)), which has caused a quarter of a million deaths in 6 years? How do you feel about the Tigray War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigray_War)? How about what's going on in Myanmar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_conflict_in_Myanmar)? How about the Somali Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Civil_War)?

How about the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_conflict), which led to a brief war between Armenia and Azerbaijan earlier, and might have drawn Turkey and Russia into war - and thus, by Turkey's membership of NATO, become WWIII? The Syrian Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war), which again with the involvement of both Russia and the US might turn into a wider conflict if we're not careful?

And so on and so forth. There are many conflicts involving Asians, which apparently nobody cares about. There are many conflicts involving Africans, which certainly nobody in the West cares about. And there are conflicts involving Arabs, which Westerners mostly don't care about. And several of these conflicts have the active involvement of Western troops, or are funded and equipped by Westerners. But we don't care about them.

It's just that conflict with the Jews we care passionately about. Funny, that.

Companies also feel the need to say that black lives matter (only if they're killed by whites, not if they're being killed by other blacks). But they don't seem particularly concerned with saying that poor people should have housing, or children shouldn't be abused, or refugees should be accepted, or...

So... is this really about justice and concern for human lives, or is it just fashionable virtue signalling?

   Well, In the USA I do not think it is as simple as just caring if Jews are involved.   For a very, very long time Jewish interests are seen to financially in the USA and especially when it comes to contributing to campaigns.   I think the past 20 or so years however Muslim interests have had substantial money flow into them and begin to influence public sentiment.   I think the money to color opinion has simply caught up a bit.  Now add in the fact that many Jewish people are "white" in the eyes of the new woke nazis... and well you have run into two segments of a troubling trend.   Add in the third trend, that only the people with influence and power can be racists, and since Jewish people run Israel, and there we have the trifecta for people who want to pull of the "underdog", feeling they are sticking it to White Oppressors.   I have to think for guys like Chuck Shumer, he probably stays awake at night listening to some of the shit coming from his party wondering just WTF he has done.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2021, 09:42:18 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 24, 2021, 07:50:31 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 24, 2021, 07:41:35 PM
The Average Palestinian supports Hamas and cheers for the stabbing of Jewish grandmothers.

Some of that is certainly true, but lets not forget about the Israel's right wing. They'd probably feel the exact same.

My point is that religion is muck. And a lot of those Palestinian kids and youths, are being brought up and lead by vile people. Which is further stoked by Israel stealing more of their land - it's a never ending cycle. But I still feel that Israel over stepped the mark with their policy of expansion (to put it politely) and via their hard line tactics.

I mean if they were just bombing Hamas I'd be patting them on the back. But they are not.

I once thought similarly. Would it be any better if people killed each other for purely secular reasons? All the woke cultism has convinced me that you don't need religion to inspire awfulness in people, and that people would just seek other justifications.

   Well, to be honest that woke cultism IS a religion.   A religion need not have ancient founders IMO, it just really needs that fervent zealotry applied to "something bigger than oneself".  So you sort of apply an example that can in fact make the argument you ask about.   I DO think a religion (and in this case I will say a thing like being woke is a religion, often filling the god sized hole in atheist hearts) makes for a worse conflict.  It is a fantastic means of getting moral clearance to do horrible shit.   Allows for an easy dehumanizing of an enemy with the added flavor of doing so for what is an absolute moral good. 

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 25, 2021, 02:48:19 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 25, 2021, 12:23:25 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2021, 10:49:57 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 10:35:55 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2021, 09:44:57 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 24, 2021, 07:06:21 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 23, 2021, 07:28:34 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:14:30 PM
And lets face it, Israel have their own 'holy' agenda too. Basically, to get as much of Palestinian land as the US will allow them to, while getting rid of all 'arabs' from 'Jewish land'.

If Israel is trying to "get rid" of all "arabs" from "Jewish land"  then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

If you want to look at countries that are great for "getting rid" of people then look at literally any muslim country and count how many Jewish people are still there.

You an i are in sync in this. I will support israel over any muslim tribe with a flag. The israelis tired rfor lears to make peace with the PLO, they did, it disappeared and up pops hamas, vowing to destroy israel.

This shit in on the palis and the peiople backing them, israel is defending itself against savage fanatics.

Also i'd say israel is showing more restraint that some wester nations did. England used poison gas against the africans in the boer war, and on russian troops in the war just after ww1.The boers weren't a threat to England, england just wanted to rule their land separated by an ocean from theirs. The russuian troops were fighting an internal civil war.

What america and england did to dresden in ww2  was a fucking war crime, and completely unnecessary at the time. Bomber haris jsut wanted revenge on germany.

israel is a saint compared to either of those atrocities.

of course i don't expect most of the shtilords here to get any of those refs, they're too busy getting their talking points from alex jones and aren't capable of much more than "librtards suck kokk!" relies.

I haven't seen you put forth much better. You seem to be here to simply hang around with people you claim to hate, and make a political stink so everyone knows how smelly your shit is.

oh what we're gonna judge people here for that now

Just you, sweetheart. If you wanna whine about other posters, then I think you're open season for others to whine about you.

nah i am a protected category due to special needs, which is why the biggest whiners already ignored me

but for real this is a place built on hating shit, just because everybody else goes out looking for links to post here to get mad about doesn't make me much different. i just went straight to the source.

Maybe if half the RPG 'community' hadn't gone crazypants, we'd content ourselves with rehashing old chestnusts like alignment or weapon speeds.

quotes around "community" say you know the truth of the matter re: how much of a community it is, but whatever binds you to the locals and gives you social glue i guess

Quote from: oggsmash on May 25, 2021, 05:26:16 AM

Well, to be honest that woke cultism IS a religion.   A religion need not have ancient founders IMO, it just really needs that fervent zealotry applied to

Well, I think it's more akin to a cult and not a religion per se. Both are dangerous however. But then on the other side isn't all that conspiracy Q-Anon stuff not the same?

This is why I try to stay away from politics when it comes to RPGs. Mainly because I think both sides are nuts. However, as I'm pro free thought and speech I generally agree with the conservatives when it comes to gaming and fighting against the woke cults. But that's just me.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 25, 2021, 05:26:16 AM

Well, to be honest that woke cultism IS a religion.   A religion need not have ancient founders IMO, it just really needs that fervent zealotry applied to

I wouldn't call it a religion, I see it as bizarre cult driven by ill intentioned bigots and zealots who are poisoning the minds of the less informed. The good news at least in the US is that 'Woke' like SJW,  are now being viewed as something negative.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on May 25, 2021, 01:05:59 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 25, 2021, 05:26:16 AM

Well, to be honest that woke cultism IS a religion.   A religion need not have ancient founders IMO, it just really needs that fervent zealotry applied to

I wouldn't call it a religion, I see it as bizarre cult driven by ill intentioned bigots and zealots who are poisoning the minds of the less informed. The good news at least in the US is that 'Woke' like SJW,  are now being viewed as something negative.

How does it look over there in the US? I mean, how are the numbers? It sadly seems, that a lot of the media we now get, has been 'censored' and altered to fit the woke cult. Unfortunately, quite a few Europeans are now becoming woke too. So we are slowly getting that propaganda fed through our media. :(

Is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 01:12:11 PM

Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on May 25, 2021, 01:05:59 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 25, 2021, 05:26:16 AM

Well, to be honest that woke cultism IS a religion.   A religion need not have ancient founders IMO, it just really needs that fervent zealotry applied to

I wouldn't call it a religion, I see it as bizarre cult driven by ill intentioned bigots and zealots who are poisoning the minds of the less informed. The good news at least in the US is that 'Woke' like SJW,  are now being viewed as something negative.

How does it look over there in the US? I mean, how are the numbers? It sadly seems, that a lot of the media we now get, has been 'censored' and altered to fit the woke cult. Unfortunately, quite a few Europeans are now becoming woke too. So we are slowly getting that propaganda fed through our media. :(

Is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

I fear in Europe they could be a bit more emboldened in some regions, but I doubt it will last long since it's now synonymous with bigotry. Basically these individuals make a lot of noise while in reality they're mostly angry loners screaming at the wind. The only reason it worked for them for as long as it did was because people ignorant to the matter dismissed it as millennials being bratty.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on May 25, 2021, 01:21:16 PM
I fear in Europe they could be a bit more emboldened in some regions, but I doubt it will last long since it's now synonymous with bigotry. Basically these individuals make a lot of noise while in reality they're mostly angry loners screaming at the wind. The only reason it worked for them for as long as it did was because people ignorant to the matter dismissed it as millennials being bratty.

Yeah, there are some countries in Europe that are absolutely bonkers. Or at least have that very vocal crowd screaming and shouting.

I really hope the non-woke back lash pays off sooner rather than later. I'm sick to death of being fed their propaganda and told how I (or we) should behave. :(

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 01:12:11 PM
How does it look over there in the US? I mean, how are the numbers? It sadly seems, that a lot of the media we now get, has been 'censored' and altered to fit the woke cult. Unfortunately, quite a few Europeans are now becoming woke too. So we are slowly getting that propaganda fed through our media. :(

Is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

It's hard to tell. I think for the past three decades, the U.S. has become increasingly partisan both in politics and in media. The trend has been for conservatives to only consume conservative media and liberals to only consume liberal media, with outlets specializing in one or the other.

I don't think the trend is over yet. However, I get a feeling that it is slowing - but it's a subjective feeling, nothing concrete. I think for most voters, the most they want is retweeting extremist memes on their iPhones. They don't have the stomach for violent civil war, and as we see more of that, the more they'll go back towards moderatism.