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Author Topic: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel  (Read 8425 times)

jhkim

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2021, 04:17:48 AM »
  I dont think you can call Osama's guys terrorists while they were fighting Soviets....fighting a violent occupying force is not terrorism even if we stretch the definition to the limit.  Later, sure they definitely engaged in and supported terrorism, but I think context matters.  Osama ran a rough regime once they got rid of the USSR, but he only turned his ire to the USA once we started driving tanks across holy land to invade Iraq.  We invaded Iraq for taking military action against a nation opening stealing their sovereign oil.  I wonder what the USA would do if Canada or Mexico started angle drilling US oil deposits?    I agree 100 percent though, the time for the USA to fund ANYONE is long over.  Much less to fund people engaging in violence.

Quite right, Ogg! Context *matters*. AT THE TIME--the Muhajadeen were NOT terrorists--they were resisting the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan by the Russians--who were our enemy and political opponent at the time. Literally years later--if not actually *decades*--the fact that Osama Bin Laden became a terrorist leader, and opposed to America--does not change the fact and solid justification for America to assist the Muhajadeen during their war against the Communist Soviet Union. Anyone that attempts to make such an argument is arguing after-the-fact, with reading future developments into a situation in the past where such simply did not exist at the time.

At the time, the mujahideen struck at both military and civilian targets. They fired hundreds of rockets into Soviet-controlled areas; they blew up passenger planes (like this); they bombed civilian targets like the Ministry of Education, and executed civilians for cooperating with the Soviets.

It is the same with nearly all cases of guerrilla resistance to a more powerful occupying force. They don't fight fair. They strike at soft targets when they can, and often they try to be as ruthless as possible to intimidate the enemy. They may prefer to kill military targets - but that is much more dangerous, and they also kill civilians both randomly and symbolically. Some guerrillas are worse than others, but almost all of them engage in this to some degree.

These are all the same sort of things that Palestinians have done against the Israeli military occupation.


Having said that, in regards to America getting involved in any current affair in the Middle East, I remain skeptical and conservative. Let the folks over there handle their own business, however it shakes out. America doesn't need to send American troops into the fire every time some fucking tribe of barbarians wants to have a fucking fit. Let them all fight to the death with each other.

I agree on this point. We also don't need to send billions of our money arming them. The U.S. has spent over $100 billion in military aid to Israel - that's more than any other country by far - plus billions more in non-military aid. I think we should maintain treaties with our strategic allies against threats like Russia and China, but much of the rest is just foolish - like helping Saudi Arabia bomb Yemen. It isn't making the U.S. safer or improving world relations.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2021, 04:24:38 AM »
That's why there's no civil war in Sweden, it's too fucking cold to go out and shoot people.
Then why is this an entry on wikipedia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grenade_attacks_in_Sweden
No entries for 2021, 2020 and 2019.

2018, a single death.
2017, no deaths.
2016, a single death.
2015, no deaths.
2014, no deaths.
2013, no deaths.
2002-12, no deaths.

Certainly, people biffing grenades around and occasionally injuring people is a concern. But 2 deaths in 17 years seems to me rather short of "civil war."

Wntrlnd

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2021, 05:12:51 AM »

Certainly, people biffing grenades around and occasionally injuring people is a concern. But 2 deaths in 17 years seems to me rather short of "civil war."

The two deaths weren't even the intended targets. The 2016 death was a 8 year old kid visiting from another country that the attacker(s) might not have known about.
The 2018 death was an old man who found the grenade on the ground as he and his girlfriend were out bicycling. He picked it up and put it in his bag and started cycling and then the grenade went off. Turned out it was a dud. There had been a shooting between gangs at that place the night before, so its possible some gang member had used it but it hadnt gone off.

So either gangsters in Sweden are terribly inept and can't even kill someone with a grenade unless by accident, or they are in fact very careful and at least try not to use explosives when they wan't to kill someone. They'll use guns for that. (which have had even more innocent bystanders killed than by grenades.)

Mjollnir

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2021, 05:19:34 AM »
About half of the media and institutions I've heard seem sympathetic to Palestine and Hamas, and critical of Isreal. But then I actually seek out "conservative" commentary, to get another perspective. I don't know how many people go beyond their local newscast or Facebook headline.

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/violence-jerusalem-evictions-palestinians
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-palestinians-gaza-violence-flaring-may-2021/
https://www.reuters.com/world/death-toll-rises-violence-rocks-gaza-israel-west-bank-2021-05-14/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/aoc-palestinian-israel-biden-policy-b1847382.html

I read the stories you linked. The parameters of discourse in America on this issue are set by the media collectively from "concern for Palestinian Human Rights" on the Left, as exemplified by the Teen Vogue article you linked, to explicit support for ethnically cleansing the Palestinians by people like Ben Shapiro on the Right. https://townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/2003/08/27/transfer-is-not-a-dirty-word-n976781     These are effectively the limits of "approved" public discourse, and they're set by the people who operate those media companies. Both sides of the dialectic are Zionist, they disagree on methods not goals.

Palestinian-Americans sympathetic to Hamas are not represented amongst the journalists at the New York Times, nor are there any Palestinian-American media mogul counterparts to Haim Saban.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53x_zrkJwDs
What did she mean by this?

Ratman_tf

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2021, 05:36:09 AM »
About half of the media and institutions I've heard seem sympathetic to Palestine and Hamas, and critical of Isreal. But then I actually seek out "conservative" commentary, to get another perspective. I don't know how many people go beyond their local newscast or Facebook headline.

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/violence-jerusalem-evictions-palestinians
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-palestinians-gaza-violence-flaring-may-2021/
https://www.reuters.com/world/death-toll-rises-violence-rocks-gaza-israel-west-bank-2021-05-14/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/aoc-palestinian-israel-biden-policy-b1847382.html

I read the stories you linked. The parameters of discourse in America on this issue are set by the media collectively from "concern for Palestinian Human Rights" on the Left, as exemplified by the Teen Vogue article you linked, to explicit support for ethnically cleansing the Palestinians by people like Ben Shapiro on the Right. https://townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/2003/08/27/transfer-is-not-a-dirty-word-n976781     These are effectively the limits of "approved" public discourse, and they're set by the people who operate those media companies. Both sides of the dialectic are Zionist, they disagree on methods not goals.

How would you like the discourse to look?

Quote
Palestinian-Americans sympathetic to Hamas are not represented amongst the journalists at the New York Times, nor are there any Palestinian-American media mogul counterparts to Haim Saban.

The dude who made Power Rangers? What's that got to do with anything?

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53x_zrkJwDs
What did she mean by this?

Dunno. Why don't you ask her?
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Mjollnir

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2021, 06:10:00 AM »
How would you like the discourse to look?

One focused on what is best for Americans. One not controlled by people with close ties to foreign countries.

The dude who made Power Rangers? What's that got to do with anything?

He's an example of an Israeli-American media mogul who manipulates American policy by bribing donating to American politicians for the benefit of a foreign country, Israel.

oggsmash

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2021, 07:27:10 AM »
   Well, they are "terrorists" and I think we can say the Boston Tea Party was an act of terrorism. 

Every time this is claimed by someone, I can tell that person has no grasp of history or any understanding of the Boston Tea Party.

  I have a complete grasp.  Under what the current people in charge would call terrorism, they most certainly were.  Do I feel they were terrorists?  No.  But most certainly if very light intrusion to the capital to put feet on desks is terrorism, it is beyond certain a similar event to the tea party would definitely be labeled terrorism by the people in charge and the media now.  People who can not see that are likely not paying attention to current events.

oggsmash

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2021, 07:29:21 AM »
I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

They did that already, how many times now, and yet here we are.

  Yes, but never without MASSIVE economic and military support from the USA.  I think lets have them give it a try without that.   I suspect Palastine will suddenly have some very willing allies helping them out.  But you are mistaken if you think i dont know that Israel comes out on top of this latest round of poo flinging.  I just think down the road they can determine their own fates without our Mastercard going to their betterment.

You talk about how the US funds Israel but somehow fail to mention every other country in the world that the US is also funding.

At least the money being poured in Israel is supporting a winner for once.

  Incorrect I was pretty clear it was long past time for the USA to stop funding anyone.  Period.  Considering this might be the only people we funded with actual nukes, it seems our support goes way above and beyond where the USA normally supports the welfare line of nations.

Trond

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2021, 09:40:42 AM »


I generally agree with oggsmash here.

The label of "terrorist" is a meaningless binary that mostly just says who has the money and power in a conflict. The South African ANC were terrorists, and we supported them against the Apartheid regime. The mujahideen in Afghanistan were terrorists, and we supported them against the Soviets. The Nicaraguan Contras were terrorists, and we supported them against the Sandinistas. The Kurdish PKK are terrorists, and we supported them against Saddam Hussein.

I support freedom for the Palestinian people. I don't endorse Hamas, but I think the Palestinians are justified in violent resistance against Israeli oppression. Israel has been a constant aggressor against Palestine using military might for decades. Any time Palestinians fight back in any way, Israel cries that it's illegitimate and that the Palestinians must only use non-violence while they use American-made planes and missiles to blockade and encroach on the Palestinians.

I think we should stop spending billions to send weapons into that conflict.

I disagree.
I am not in doubt about who’s the terrorist side in this conflict.
Which one of the two frequently lets the other side know where they will attack, so that they can move civilians away? Israel does. Which one is frequently targeting civilians and actually using its own population as a shield? The Palestinians (repeated claims that this has been debunked never quite hold up. Hamas does have less populated areas where they can fire rockets but they generally choose not to)

Besides, people often make the argument of how Israel is better equipped, organized and supported. That did not have to be the case since Palestine has always had powerful allies in the immediate neighborhood, while Israel has typically been supported by America. Israel was immediately attacked from all sides following the declaration of the independent Israeli state, but they won. they organized themselves because they had to and they had the skills to do it. Israel has been better organized ever since.

HappyDaze

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2021, 10:07:49 AM »


I generally agree with oggsmash here.

The label of "terrorist" is a meaningless binary that mostly just says who has the money and power in a conflict. The South African ANC were terrorists, and we supported them against the Apartheid regime. The mujahideen in Afghanistan were terrorists, and we supported them against the Soviets. The Nicaraguan Contras were terrorists, and we supported them against the Sandinistas. The Kurdish PKK are terrorists, and we supported them against Saddam Hussein.

I support freedom for the Palestinian people. I don't endorse Hamas, but I think the Palestinians are justified in violent resistance against Israeli oppression. Israel has been a constant aggressor against Palestine using military might for decades. Any time Palestinians fight back in any way, Israel cries that it's illegitimate and that the Palestinians must only use non-violence while they use American-made planes and missiles to blockade and encroach on the Palestinians.

I think we should stop spending billions to send weapons into that conflict.

I disagree.
I am not in doubt about who’s the terrorist side in this conflict.
Which one of the two frequently lets the other side know where they will attack, so that they can move civilians away? Israel does. Which one is frequently targeting civilians and actually using its own population as a shield? The Palestinians (repeated claims that this has been debunked never quite hold up. Hamas does have less populated areas where they can fire rockets but they generally choose not to)

Besides, people often make the argument of how Israel is better equipped, organized and supported. That did not have to be the case since Palestine has always had powerful allies in the immediate neighborhood, while Israel has typically been supported by America. Israel was immediately attacked from all sides following the declaration of the independent Israeli state, but they won. they organized themselves because they had to and they had the skills to do it. Israel has been better organized ever since.
So... asymmetric warfare is asymmetric? Got it.

This Guy

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2021, 01:03:29 PM »


I generally agree with oggsmash here.

The label of "terrorist" is a meaningless binary that mostly just says who has the money and power in a conflict. The South African ANC were terrorists, and we supported them against the Apartheid regime. The mujahideen in Afghanistan were terrorists, and we supported them against the Soviets. The Nicaraguan Contras were terrorists, and we supported them against the Sandinistas. The Kurdish PKK are terrorists, and we supported them against Saddam Hussein.

I support freedom for the Palestinian people. I don't endorse Hamas, but I think the Palestinians are justified in violent resistance against Israeli oppression. Israel has been a constant aggressor against Palestine using military might for decades. Any time Palestinians fight back in any way, Israel cries that it's illegitimate and that the Palestinians must only use non-violence while they use American-made planes and missiles to blockade and encroach on the Palestinians.

I think we should stop spending billions to send weapons into that conflict.

I disagree.
I am not in doubt about who’s the terrorist side in this conflict.
Which one of the two frequently lets the other side know where they will attack, so that they can move civilians away? Israel does. Which one is frequently targeting civilians and actually using its own population as a shield? The Palestinians (repeated claims that this has been debunked never quite hold up. Hamas does have less populated areas where they can fire rockets but they generally choose not to)

Besides, people often make the argument of how Israel is better equipped, organized and supported. That did not have to be the case since Palestine has always had powerful allies in the immediate neighborhood, while Israel has typically been supported by America. Israel was immediately attacked from all sides following the declaration of the independent Israeli state, but they won. they organized themselves because they had to and they had the skills to do it. Israel has been better organized ever since.
So... asymmetric warfare is asymmetric? Got it.

does feel a bit like describing the rules of a COIN game doesn't it
I don't want to play with you.

DocJones

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2021, 02:29:17 PM »

Trond

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2021, 02:32:09 PM »
So... asymmetric warfare is asymmetric? Got it.

How did it become asymmetric? The Jews did have some support in 1948 but then they had just been through the worst massacre the world has ever seen.

Trond

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2021, 04:56:46 PM »

Shasarak

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Re: Leftists Support Terrorist Hamas Against Israel
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2021, 05:43:28 PM »
I say let them fight it out and how ever it goes, it goes.

They did that already, how many times now, and yet here we are.

  Yes, but never without MASSIVE economic and military support from the USA.  I think lets have them give it a try without that.   I suspect Palastine will suddenly have some very willing allies helping them out.  But you are mistaken if you think i dont know that Israel comes out on top of this latest round of poo flinging.  I just think down the road they can determine their own fates without our Mastercard going to their betterment.

You talk about how the US funds Israel but somehow fail to mention every other country in the world that the US is also funding.

At least the money being poured in Israel is supporting a winner for once.

  Incorrect I was pretty clear it was long past time for the USA to stop funding anyone.  Period.  Considering this might be the only people we funded with actual nukes, it seems our support goes way above and beyond where the USA normally supports the welfare line of nations.

You would not even have nukes if it was not for the Jews so...what are you complaining about?

Next you will be complaining about giving Israel Jewish Space Lasers.
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