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Author Topic: Leave the Kids alone!  (Read 2891 times)

RPGPundit

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Leave the Kids alone!
« on: November 01, 2006, 11:08:42 AM »
There has been much talk on certain online Swine forums about "gaming with children" and "what system would be right for a group of kids" and "what kind of RPG could we design that would appeal to kids".
 
The level of general ignorance and stupidity shown on these threads astounds me, it really does. I mean, it goes far above and beyond the call of Swine Duty, treading into whole new realms, undiscovered countries of total lackwit moronic idiocy.
 
First of all: What the fuck?! NOW you fuckers care about the children? Now?
 
After it was you who singlehandedly pushed kids away from the roleplaying hobby with your asinine selfish insistence on hardcover high-production overpriced RPG books so that they'd suit your "collector" mentality, and absurd pseudo-intellectual themes that no self-respecting kid would give a shit about, and politically correct nonsense and other such sophomoric college-idiocy that convinced younger teens that they were neither wanted nor needed in this hobby?

NOW?
 
Now that you stupid fuckwits almost put the hobby on death's door, you start thinking of the children?
 
You gang of cunts.
 
Second: Hello?? Hello?? There are ALREADY systems "for kids", very successful ones, systems like Fighting Fantasy, the Palladium system, D&D Basic, stuff that MADE this hobby, and that you guys despise because it isn't sufficiently "narrativist" or isn't about transgendered cowboys eating pudding, or man's struggle with teatime, or whatever other absolutely imbecilic piece of claptrap is the fashion of the day with you goons.
 
Those are the sorts of RPGs a kid will like: RPGs where you go around having adventures, killing things, fighting, getting powerful; with lots of magic items, meaningless but cool monsters, and the occasional fart joke.
 
You know, like Palladium? The system you guys laugh at? Or D&D, the system you despise because in your heart of hearts you know its more entertaining than anything you intellectually bankrupt gang of vermin could come up with?
 
Palladium's games (which I guess these days are mostly just RIFTS) can barely be called a "system", their worlds make no sense. They are overpowered, off-balance, and the total opposite of deep.
 
Which tells us that none of that matters one fucking bit when it comes to getting kids interested in RPGs.  The kids couldn't give a flying fuck about "system"; they don't want "a narrativist open-ended system with mechanics from The Window and Risus"; they want a fucking GAME.  They don't give a shit about setting either, at least not in the sense that you do, or even the sense that I do. They don't want something profound or even consistent, they want something cool to them.
 
Palladium, while producing games that I personally wouldn't ever play these days, is responsible for making more roleplayers than all the Lard on RPGnet put together.  And why is that? Because despite all the personal flaws of the people who make up the company, they know exactly what they're selling and for whom: softcover books that rarely get over $25, with lots of awesome robots and explosions and monsters and occasional boobies.   They're actually making books that kids can afford, and games that are FUN with the thematics that the kids enjoy.
 
You know the only other game more responsible for making new gamers? D&D. Because it has monsters and power-ups and rules that are complicated enough to be interesting but not so complicated as to be unplayable and you can be a Dwarf with a fucking big axe that kills the orc chief.  That's what the kids want you fucks, not "cinematic unisystem narrativist harry potter where harry explores the social consequences of muggles/wizard class warfare", not "politically correct fairytales using My Life With Master as an engine"!
 
I piss on you all.
 
So I am issuing the Swine a missive: For the Magic Deer's sake, stay the fuck away from the children!  If you give a shit about the roleplaying hobby and its future (and I have long since given up any hope that you do, given the atrocities you have commited against that future, with friends like you who needs enemies?) you will under no circumstances try to force your kids or anyone else's into roleplaying your sad pretentious bullshit with you, just because you can't find a real gaming group to do so.   Violate this and I swear to Jeebus I will sooner or later come after you with the Burning Hot Poker of Justice!
 
Its not that I in any way fear that you'll make them into little Swine; kids are usually too smart to be Swine, and won't be in any real danger of that until their mid-teens when they hit the bad-poetry-writing phase; its that I'm quite sure that there would be no better way of insuring that kids hate RPGs than for an adult to thrust some demented game out of the Forge or RPGnet on them.  It will cement forever in their little heads the idea that RPGs are for boring losers with nothing better to do than to harass preteens with "games" that aren't really games and where nothing really interesting happens.
 
This is especially true if you're the parent. Even if you're not a Swine, even if you play a game that's cool to them, you will almost certainly be making sure that even if they like it as kids, they will reject it as teens along with anything else you think is cool.
 
Even if you're an older sibling; the absolute best thing you can do is what I did with my younger brother:  I told him that there was no way he'd be allowed to game with me until he was at least 16, no matter how much he begged (and he begged and begged).  By the time he was 13, he was playing RPGs with his own friends, just to "show me", and in the process getting himself and all his buddies hooked. By the time he finally gained the vaunted spot in my gaming group, he was already totally hooked, and games to this day.
 
So leave the kids alone, you dumb fucks!
 
Unless you're Wizards of the Coast: in that case, for the Magic Deer's sake get off your fucking asses and start making gamebooks like the old Fighting Fantasy books; and a simpler RPG set for 10-14 year olds that are all about running around the dungeon killing stuff and fighting with robots, and occasional boobies.   I know you guys can do this, surely you must see the importance of getting these little snots hooked while they're young! Sell your fucking miniatures if you must, but segway it into the roleplaying hobby as a whole. I know that somewhere inside those robotic corporate shells there are still gamers, who give a shit about the hobby as a whole, and understand that this is fucking critical! So go, do it, pull whatever strings you must, but get it done, or you too shall suffer from the Flaming Keystrokes of Truth and the Burning Hot Poker of Justice!  Mike Mearls, I'm looking at you!
 
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Aos

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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2006, 11:20:15 AM »
I am in favor of boobies, occasional and otherwise. Rpg art is of a higher quality (somtimes anyway) these days, but it is much more repressed than when I was a kid.
You are posting in a troll thread.

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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2006, 11:26:18 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
There has been much talk on certain online Swine forums about "gaming with children" and "what system would be right for a group of kids" and "what kind of RPG could we design that would appeal to kids".
 
[Clip great stuff!]
 
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October 10th, 2005


Amen, Brother! Preach it! You hit the nail on the head with this one. My son's a gamer - he's written several games & supplements with me - because of this. I played let's pretend with him and his ninja turtle action figures. I gave him TMNT and other Strangeness (Palladium!) for his first RPG. Took to it all like a duck to water. Now he's in college and still plays with us.

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RPGPundit

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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2006, 11:32:23 AM »
Awesome.

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fonkaygarry

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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2006, 11:32:28 AM »
I can't argue with boobies, robots and swordfights.  Not even a little.

Good one, Pundit.
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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2006, 11:43:27 AM »
I have a seven year old daughter and we've gamed a time or two.  Sort of.

It started with Buffy - she's seen Dad's DVDs and loves the show, so when she saw the book she wanted to know what it was.  When I said it was a game where you pretend to be people like Buffy and her friends and kill vampires.  After that she HAD to play.  But to be honest it was more her running around pretending to kill vampires while I told her what was happening - not much interest in rolling dice.

We've also played the D&D miniatures game some, she likes board games and thinks the minis are cool, so why not?  I tried introducing D&D when she started trying to go outside the board game parameters - wanting her favorite mini to climb over a wall, or jump behind a monster, or whatever.  But when I suggested we just pretend and only get the minis out when there would be a fight she said 'that would be too boring.'

I agree not to push, and ideally kids IMO shouldn't game much with adults.  They're looking for different things, the adults may not want to censor themselves, and so on.  The best solution is as Pundit said - introduce them to it sure, but they should be getting together with their own friends and doing their own games.
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Aos

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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2006, 11:57:15 AM »
Yeah, aside from my support (heh) of the occasional naked tit. I have to agree with the meat of the post- I mean, D&D is great for kids- the mere existence of the hobby pretty much proves that.
You are posting in a troll thread.

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Mcrow

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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2006, 11:59:57 AM »
Quote from: Aos
I am in favor of boobies, occasional and otherwise. Rpg art is of a higher quality (somtimes anyway) these days, but it is much more repressed than when I was a kid.


What is it with boobies around here lately? Do we have a bunch of people who haven't got any in a while?:D

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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2006, 12:00:50 PM »
I think that a lot of the small companies are making very kid-friendly none-too-complicated games these days. There are a lot of independent projects that meet the mark as well. I'm thinking of Mazes & Minotaurs, for one.

Hell, this back to basics simplicity is what I want to accomplish with Guns & Gas Masks when I wade through some of the reviews I'm working on.

I never learned gaming from adults. It was from buddies and their cool older brothers with wine bottle candle holders and black-light nekkid demon chick posters on their walls.

Adults would have ruined the allure.

Aos

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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2006, 12:09:38 PM »
Quote from: Mcrow
What is it with boobies around here lately? Do we have a bunch of people who haven't got any in a while?:D


I find the more often  I "get it" the more I'm thinking about boobies same thing with snowboarding and rpgs, really.  Notice I rarely mention snowboarding.
You are posting in a troll thread.

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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2006, 01:15:33 PM »
Quote from: mattormeg


I never learned gaming from adults. It was from buddies and their cool older brothers with wine bottle candle holders and black-light nekkid demon chick posters on their walls.

Adults would have ruined the allure.


Exactly. And no matter how much your 10 year old might love roleplaying with you, and how much you really desperately want to roleplay with your 10 year old, natural human psychology says that if you game with that 10 year old, by the time he or she is a 14 year old they will want to reject roleplaying along with everything else that their parents "told them" was cool.

I'm probably too far gone to have kids (though you never know, trudeau did it at 70!), but I think I did it right with my brother.  There were times I would have loved to have roleplayed with him when he was 11 or 12. But resisting that temptation myself and ignoring his downright pleas to let him play with my group is, I am convinced, what made him a gamer to this day.
With my nieces or nephews, it will be the exact same way.

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The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
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Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

James McMurray

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Leave the Kids alone!
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2006, 02:16:46 PM »
It takes a rare talent to write something that I agree with 100% but still makes me want to slap the author and tell him to shut the hell up.

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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2006, 04:07:37 PM »
Fuck – so if I'd given my little brother drugs, he wouldn't be swallowing disco biscuits every weekend now?
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jhkim

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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2006, 05:09:11 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
Exactly. And no matter how much your 10 year old might love roleplaying with you, and how much you really desperately want to roleplay with your 10 year old, natural human psychology says that if you game with that 10 year old, by the time he or she is a 14 year old they will want to reject roleplaying along with everything else that their parents "told them" was cool.

I'm probably too far gone to have kids (though you never know, trudeau did it at 70!), but I think I did it right with my brother.


Yeah, as a parent, I'm don't buy the half-assed reversed psychology here.  So you should avoid playing ball with your kid if you want him to be into sports?  And avoid reading books with him if you want him to enjoy reading?  And not watch movies with him if you want him to like movies?  

Obviously, gaming isn't something to be forced onto your kids.  Nothing will kill their enthusiasm faster than making it something they have to do to please their parents.  But that's different than simply not doing it.

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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2006, 10:12:14 PM »
I can agree with it to the point of "give them amateur thespian games and they won't want to play real RPGs" but trying to apply it as a general plan is just going to edn up with some fucked up kids. And who knows, maybe the amateur thespian rpgs would end up turning them into actual thespians. If child rearing were that easy there weren't be so many fucked up adults running around.