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Author Topic: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?  (Read 23198 times)

Pat

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #675 on: May 10, 2022, 06:54:23 AM »

I have never heard anyone going hard at condoms.
It's common enough that Monty Python parodied it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzVHjg3AqIQ

Those beliefs are still out there. Corporate popular culture doesn't reflect reality.

That's a big issue when it comes to balkanization. Huge sections of the US simply don't exist, if your only exposure is television and pop culture. Hollywood gives a very distorted view of what America is really like. Which means the people who live within that narrow spectrum and only know people within that very narrow spectrum are completely blind to the fact that people very different them from them exist.

As I said before, there are at least two worlds in America that exist, side-by-side. They live only a few blocks away from each other, and pass each other when driving, but they tend to live in different neighborhoods, work in different places, and go to different churches and merchants. They don't interact socially, to an almost ridiculous degree. It's not that 50% of the country only has a few friends from the other 50%, which is what most people assume. It's far more extreme than that. Most of the people in the one 50% have exactly zero friends from the other 50%. And since only one of the 50% groups is represented by pop culture, the media, and so on; the group represented by the overwhelmingly dominant media assume they're the norm, and that only the fringe extremists believe anything different.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 07:07:14 AM by Pat »

GeekyBugle

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #676 on: May 10, 2022, 12:45:03 PM »
The post is written like that because you don't see men (unless you consider male feminists men, I don't) clamoring for the "right" to kill babies.



More missleading numbers?

Mixed, neither and no option not shown.

What age? What political party? Where? Size of the sample? What was the exact question?

There's lies, damn lies and statistics.

Here you go.

Large numbers of men identify as pro-choice. There is no way to spin that fact as anything more plain and truthful than that. We can quibble about the exact percentage, but ultimately it comes down to simply that a large and meaningful number of men identify as pro-choice, whether you like it or not, whether you know them or not, whether you ever escape your personal bubble of people or not.

Again, what party?
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Chris24601

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #677 on: May 10, 2022, 04:51:52 PM »
The post is written like that because you don't see men (unless you consider male feminists men, I don't) clamoring for the "right" to kill babies.



More missleading numbers?

Mixed, neither and no option not shown.

What age? What political party? Where? Size of the sample? What was the exact question?

There's lies, damn lies and statistics.

Here you go.

Large numbers of men identify as pro-choice. There is no way to spin that fact as anything more plain and truthful than that. We can quibble about the exact percentage, but ultimately it comes down to simply that a large and meaningful number of men identify as pro-choice, whether you like it or not, whether you know them or not, whether you ever escape your personal bubble of people or not.

Again, what party?
I’m not surprised many men are pro-abortion and encourage women to be pro-abortion. After all, it allows men of low morals to sleep around with reduced risk of having to pay child support.

3catcircus

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #678 on: May 10, 2022, 07:07:02 PM »
The post is written like that because you don't see men (unless you consider male feminists men, I don't) clamoring for the "right" to kill babies.



More missleading numbers?

Mixed, neither and no option not shown.

What age? What political party? Where? Size of the sample? What was the exact question?

There's lies, damn lies and statistics.

Here you go.

Large numbers of men identify as pro-choice. There is no way to spin that fact as anything more plain and truthful than that. We can quibble about the exact percentage, but ultimately it comes down to simply that a large and meaningful number of men identify as pro-choice, whether you like it or not, whether you know them or not, whether you ever escape your personal bubble of people or not.

Again, what party?
I’m not surprised many men are pro-abortion and encourage women to be pro-abortion. After all, it allows men of low morals to sleep around with reduced risk of having to pay child support.

How many of them are pro because they're wastes of oxygen amoral turds vs because they're soyboy "feminists?". Not that it matters because both groups should be killed, just want to figure out how I'd divvy up the job once I'm king...

Jaeger

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #679 on: May 10, 2022, 10:52:13 PM »
In the interest of throwing fuel on the balkanization fire...

2000 mules - The video documentary on the 2020 election fraud:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/XYHpcRwebhIV/

Youtube won't carry it. Quell surprise.
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jhkim

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #680 on: May 11, 2022, 03:28:56 PM »
oggsmash, your language sounds mocking such that I'm not sure what your real position is. Do you genuinely believe that someone killing a zygote is a moral wrong of "killing their own kid"? If someone genuinely believed that an act is killing children, then I can't picture them having no problem with it. For me, the reason I don't have a problem with abortion or in-vitro fertilization or morning-after pills is that I don't think that they are killing kids. They are preventing kids from being created.

I think as a society, we should aim to have fewer unwanted and/or poorly-raised children. That's why I think all of sex education, preventative contraception, morning-after pills, and abortion should be supported by the public. I think forcing unwilling mothers to raise unwanted kids will end up costing our society far more than it saves.

Since the zygote WILL almost certainly become a person without outside interference I think you are splitting hairs to align with your conscience.  I am just calling the thing what it is, and I do not have an issue with people who are unfit to reproduce responsibly taking care of a societal problem super early.    Your problem, is you want to call the thing you are doing something other than what it is.  If the case were all abortions were extremely early, well maybe your conscience could rest.  But you, and I know full well MANY abortions happen fairly (or extremely) late and in several states can be attained "legally" with doctor shopping to get those all so nebulous "mental health of the mother" threats down on paper.

That is why I've clearly stated that I don't oppose late term abortion bans. I've also explained my criteria for what is murder - that the victim must have some degree of thoughts and feelings, so brain-dead patients don't count - and single cells are far beyond counting.

By contrast, you seem to be arguing that there is no distinction between a single-celled zygote and killing a child after it is born. You also haven't expressed an opinion on in vitro fertilization (IVF), where typically 14 embryos are created and 7 destroyed for every successful pregnancy.


   Though I have no issue with unwilling mothers killing off their unwanted kids, there is the one thing there that sticks out.  A long shot for sure, but we do hear those inspiring stories of the unwanted kid who gets adopted and becomes a stand out citizen...we even hear about the kids who had that unwilling parent raise them, and often adapting to the situation and rising to the occasion and producing a wonderful member of society.

To my mind, this is the same "what-if" that I frequently hear of elder parents demanding grandchildren. "I think you would be a great parent." "If only you had a child, they might turn out to be an amazing person." etc. --  But by using birth control, these children don't come about, so the possibility of their existence never happens. Along similar lines, most embryos created for IVF are destroyed. But couldn't it be possible that embryo might turn out to be a stand-out citizen? Shouldn't anyone who creates such embryos try to have them all?

But I don't think we have to create all hypothetically possible people. The hypothetical possibility of a person in the future isn't the same as an actual person.

oggsmash

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #681 on: May 11, 2022, 04:01:17 PM »
oggsmash, your language sounds mocking such that I'm not sure what your real position is. Do you genuinely believe that someone killing a zygote is a moral wrong of "killing their own kid"? If someone genuinely believed that an act is killing children, then I can't picture them having no problem with it. For me, the reason I don't have a problem with abortion or in-vitro fertilization or morning-after pills is that I don't think that they are killing kids. They are preventing kids from being created.

I think as a society, we should aim to have fewer unwanted and/or poorly-raised children. That's why I think all of sex education, preventative contraception, morning-after pills, and abortion should be supported by the public. I think forcing unwilling mothers to raise unwanted kids will end up costing our society far more than it saves.

Since the zygote WILL almost certainly become a person without outside interference I think you are splitting hairs to align with your conscience.  I am just calling the thing what it is, and I do not have an issue with people who are unfit to reproduce responsibly taking care of a societal problem super early.    Your problem, is you want to call the thing you are doing something other than what it is.  If the case were all abortions were extremely early, well maybe your conscience could rest.  But you, and I know full well MANY abortions happen fairly (or extremely) late and in several states can be attained "legally" with doctor shopping to get those all so nebulous "mental health of the mother" threats down on paper.

That is why I've clearly stated that I don't oppose late term abortion bans. I've also explained my criteria for what is murder - that the victim must have some degree of thoughts and feelings, so brain-dead patients don't count - and single cells are far beyond counting.

By contrast, you seem to be arguing that there is no distinction between a single-celled zygote and killing a child after it is born. You also haven't expressed an opinion on in vitro fertilization (IVF), where typically 14 embryos are created and 7 destroyed for every successful pregnancy.


   Though I have no issue with unwilling mothers killing off their unwanted kids, there is the one thing there that sticks out.  A long shot for sure, but we do hear those inspiring stories of the unwanted kid who gets adopted and becomes a stand out citizen...we even hear about the kids who had that unwilling parent raise them, and often adapting to the situation and rising to the occasion and producing a wonderful member of society.

To my mind, this is the same "what-if" that I frequently hear of elder parents demanding grandchildren. "I think you would be a great parent." "If only you had a child, they might turn out to be an amazing person." etc. --  But by using birth control, these children don't come about, so the possibility of their existence never happens. Along similar lines, most embryos created for IVF are destroyed. But couldn't it be possible that embryo might turn out to be a stand-out citizen? Shouldn't anyone who creates such embryos try to have them all?

But I don't think we have to create all hypothetically possible people. The hypothetical possibility of a person in the future isn't the same as an actual person.

  So your beginning of it being "bad" to abort a child is....when?  What week? 

jeff37923

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #682 on: May 11, 2022, 06:22:48 PM »
In the interest of throwing fuel on the balkanization fire...

2000 mules - The video documentary on the 2020 election fraud:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/XYHpcRwebhIV/

Youtube won't carry it. Quell surprise.

Thank you for the link. That was chilling to watch.
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jhkim

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #683 on: May 12, 2022, 08:06:31 PM »
That is why I've clearly stated that I don't oppose late term abortion bans. I've also explained my criteria for what is murder - that the victim must have some degree of thoughts and feelings, so brain-dead patients don't count - and single cells are far beyond counting.

By contrast, you seem to be arguing that there is no distinction between a single-celled zygote and killing a child after it is born. You also haven't expressed an opinion on in vitro fertilization (IVF), where typically 14 embryos are created and 7 destroyed for every successful pregnancy.

  So your beginning of it being "bad" to abort a child is....when?  What week?

Offhand, I'd place it somewhere around 20 weeks, but I'd want to learn more from specialists for a definite opinion. That's well before the halves of the brain develop. There is a brain stem before this, but its activity is automatic motions like breathing and swallowing, which don't indicate thought. If there's no chance of conscious thought, I don't think there should be moral stigma. I'm not absolute about exactly when it is OK to pull the plug on a likely brain-dead patient either. I think the principle is more important than the exact criteria.

Having answered that, can you answer about IVF and your criteria?

Spinachcat

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #684 on: May 12, 2022, 09:45:17 PM »
Overturning Roe will create a level of soft secession. I do wonder how many Red States will actually ban abortion vs. just limiting it to X weeks or detection of heartbeat.

The over-reaction by the bluetard states should be interesting, especially with Demonrats talking openly about post-birth abortions.


oggsmash

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #685 on: May 12, 2022, 11:32:32 PM »
I have no thoughts on IVF at all.   IVF is a diversion/obfuscation.  It has zero to do with the term at which several states allow abortions.  As for moral stigma, bullshit, you want people to adopt your morals.  Hard pass.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #686 on: May 13, 2022, 12:46:48 AM »
I believe humans have to begin as an abstracted mass of cells, or humanity isn't worth allot.

If you don't think a human being on its own is sacred, then this opens up the can of worms for eugenics. And 'Don't let X live in case they suffer in life' is borderline death worship. Its an argument that can be expanded to all life.

Wrath of God

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #687 on: May 13, 2022, 04:10:49 AM »
TBH I think if not for bad rep done by certain Tiny Little Mustache I think modern atheistic liberal left would be totally into eugenics.
Benevolent eugenics considering overall situation - not like forcing people to not breed, and rather not racist (because diversity needs to be preserved) but I can totally see them like paying extra social to low-IQ or sick people to cease their breeding.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #688 on: May 13, 2022, 04:58:19 PM »
TBH I think if not for bad rep done by certain Tiny Little Mustache I think modern atheistic liberal left would be totally into eugenics.
Benevolent eugenics considering overall situation - not like forcing people to not breed, and rather not racist (because diversity needs to be preserved) but I can totally see them like paying extra social to low-IQ or sick people to cease their breeding.

But they are into eugenics, in a totally racist way. What do you think planned parenthood is? Do you think it's a coincidence most are in black neiborhoods?
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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thornad

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #689 on: May 14, 2022, 04:02:50 AM »

By contrast, you seem to be arguing that there is no distinction between a single-celled zygote and killing a child after it is born. You also haven't expressed an opinion on in vitro fertilization (IVF), where typically 14 embryos are created and 7 destroyed for every successful pregnancy.


This is perhaps the largest problem in the debate. There is clearly a qualitative difference between a zygote which has a non-0 value, and a child which has an inestimable value, and there is no clear demarcation line between them as the zygote slowly develops into a fully developed child.

As the radical Left has pushed for abortion up to and including the moment of birth, and then starting to push for as late as 1-3 months after birth it has turned into a firestorm. On top of shockingly horrific acts of abortionists like Kermit Gosnell, and how it has turned into an industry encouraging scared young mothers to abort their babies for profit the situation has become untenable. America effectively has the most radical position on abortion in the world.

Roe V. Wade has to go because it is preventing communities from voting for how much abortion they can tolerate from 3rd trimester to none at all, and most communities will fall somewhere in between.