It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?

[Drozdovsky]

I don't think people realize, Balkanization has never been peaceful. That's a coward's fantasy. You should really look up the political and societal situation of Yugoslavia just before the civil war against Bosnia. Random groups of armed militias, vehicles kept in storage/national guard stockpile being pulled out for use. There is no peaceful resolution, but it seems just like Yugoslavia it will be ethnically oriented with politics being only half of it.

If the armed militias are roughing up the woke, how is that a problem? Isn't that exactly what the woke members of Antifa and BLM did during the riots? Seems that turnabout would be fair play.

That's the problem though, paramilitaries usually don't abide by any type of societal standard or order. Once they're blasting people away, it can get out of hand. Not to mention there's no one to reign them in. The UCK during the Yugoslav war is one such example.

[rgalex]

The problem isn't with the concept of abortion. The problem is with how "safe, legal, and rare" has turned into "even though it looks like a little human I'm going to bury my head in the sand and call it fetal tissue so I don't have to face the truth of what I'm doing; let's use abortion as a primary means of birth control so we can reward bad behavior and bad choices; let's abort up to and beyond birth; let's let children get abortions without parental knowledge; let's do as many abortions as possible so we can sell the remains for dubious research and keep the money flowing in."

It's a microcosm of the overall greed, stupidity, and laziness that Western society is rife with - partly because western society has no real hardship anymore for most people and partly because regulatory governmental agencies would have to actually investigate.  In the extreme case of Kermit Gosnell, the PA dept of health chose to not stop him - they simply wanted to not know what was going on so they didn't have to act and it took an investigation into potential drug dealing by him that a light was shined on his little shop of horrors...  https://www.globalblackhistory.com/liberal-racism-the-case-of-dr-kermit-gosnell/

So that's where we're at - we've allowed the abortion industry to proceed so far beyond what was reasonable (let alone legal), that we *need* the pendulum to swing as far back in the opposite direction as possible...

And Gosnell isn't an isolated case... https://www.newsweek.com/dc-abortion-pictures-reveal-uncomfortable-truths-opinion-1698021

This makes sense to me.  I've always been willing to compromise at "safe, legal and rare" but like you said, we've gone so far past that now.

There is always going to be another exception people try to put up as an excuse.  Rape and incest.  Health and lives of the child/mother.  Mental health of the mother is one of the newer ones.  The truth is though, most abortions are excuses for not wanting to deal with the consequences of the actions.

Maybe there is newer data, but a study updated in 2016 found

"claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape, 0.3%; in cases of incest, 0.03%; in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 0.8%; and in cases of fetal health issues, 0.5%. About 98.3% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons and possibly 0.1% each for sex selection and selective reduction of multifetal pregnancies."

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

[SHARK]

The problem isn't with the concept of abortion. The problem is with how "safe, legal, and rare" has turned into "even though it looks like a little human I'm going to bury my head in the sand and call it fetal tissue so I don't have to face the truth of what I'm doing; let's use abortion as a primary means of birth control so we can reward bad behavior and bad choices; let's abort up to and beyond birth; let's let children get abortions without parental knowledge; let's do as many abortions as possible so we can sell the remains for dubious research and keep the money flowing in."

It's a microcosm of the overall greed, stupidity, and laziness that Western society is rife with - partly because western society has no real hardship anymore for most people and partly because regulatory governmental agencies would have to actually investigate.  In the extreme case of Kermit Gosnell, the PA dept of health chose to not stop him - they simply wanted to not know what was going on so they didn't have to act and it took an investigation into potential drug dealing by him that a light was shined on his little shop of horrors...  https://www.globalblackhistory.com/liberal-racism-the-case-of-dr-kermit-gosnell/

So that's where we're at - we've allowed the abortion industry to proceed so far beyond what was reasonable (let alone legal), that we *need* the pendulum to swing as far back in the opposite direction as possible...

And Gosnell isn't an isolated case... https://www.newsweek.com/dc-abortion-pictures-reveal-uncomfortable-truths-opinion-1698021

This makes sense to me.  I've always been willing to compromise at "safe, legal and rare" but like you said, we've gone so far past that now.

There is always going to be another exception people try to put up as an excuse.  Rape and incest.  Health and lives of the child/mother.  Mental health of the mother is one of the newer ones.  The truth is though, most abortions are excuses for not wanting to deal with the consequences of the actions.

Maybe there is newer data, but a study updated in 2016 found

"claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape, 0.3%; in cases of incest, 0.03%; in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 0.8%; and in cases of fetal health issues, 0.5%. About 98.3% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons and possibly 0.1% each for sex selection and selective reduction of multifetal pregnancies."

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

Greetings!

*Exactly* Imagine that. And yet, for *years* Pro-Life people have been waging the fight against abortion and debating pro-abortion people about this unceasingly--constantly referencing the real truth, and the real facts, that the vast majority of abortions in America are entirely elective, ad essentially based on a lack of morality and a desire for so many of the women involved to simply avoid taking responsibility for their choices and behavior.

Instead, the pro-abortion morons screeched that we were hateful bigots and misogynists.

And the cock-sucking pussy white knights would so often leap in to the debate and make the sanctimonious argument about "What about Rape? Incest? Danger to the mother dying? The child being horribly mutated?"

The fact that such rare and marginal cases were *legal* under the law in most states BEFORE Roe V. Wade--simply convinced me that people that are pro-abortion are intellectually dishonest, disingenuous scum liars that want women to continue to be able to be total fucking whores, while the innocent babies growing in their bellies get fucking slaughtered and pay the ultimate price for the men and women involved choosing to be immoral and irresponsible.

THAT is the bottom line, and the pro-abortion people have never had the fucking balls or integrity to simply admit, "Yes, I'm an immoral fucking whore, and I will continue to live and fuck all I want, and the babies can get fucked. I don't care." That is a level of brutal honesty and TRUTH that they simply can't look in the mirror and admit, let alone look someone else in the face and admit that deep truth.

SCIENCE ha always known the truth. There hasn't ever been any fucking mystery or "confusion" about this subject. Pro-Abortionists like to throw up all these phony fucking exceptions and whine about the deep personal struggles--but it is all a fucking smoke screen to hide their own moral cowardice and bloody selfishness.

Abortion is murder, and wrong. The only times it is morally justified is in the rare fucking cases outlined exactly as you discussed, my friend. The law, as well as most Christian ministers even, were accepting of such parameters and stipulations that existed before Roe V. Wade.

2%. Two fucking percent. Geesus. I know, I know. That's what we have been arguing for fucking decades now. It is nice, refreshing, and a blessing to see the majority of the culture to finally see through the fucking lies and bullshit of the Pro-Abortionists, the fucking Feminists, and all of the fucking money-making business involved in profiting from millions of women getting abortions.

I am glad genuine progress is being made against abortion in this country. The more restrictions on abortion the better!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[3catcircus]

The problem isn't with the concept of abortion. The problem is with how "safe, legal, and rare" has turned into "even though it looks like a little human I'm going to bury my head in the sand and call it fetal tissue so I don't have to face the truth of what I'm doing; let's use abortion as a primary means of birth control so we can reward bad behavior and bad choices; let's abort up to and beyond birth; let's let children get abortions without parental knowledge; let's do as many abortions as possible so we can sell the remains for dubious research and keep the money flowing in."

It's a microcosm of the overall greed, stupidity, and laziness that Western society is rife with - partly because western society has no real hardship anymore for most people and partly because regulatory governmental agencies would have to actually investigate.  In the extreme case of Kermit Gosnell, the PA dept of health chose to not stop him - they simply wanted to not know what was going on so they didn't have to act and it took an investigation into potential drug dealing by him that a light was shined on his little shop of horrors...  https://www.globalblackhistory.com/liberal-racism-the-case-of-dr-kermit-gosnell/

So that's where we're at - we've allowed the abortion industry to proceed so far beyond what was reasonable (let alone legal), that we *need* the pendulum to swing as far back in the opposite direction as possible...

And Gosnell isn't an isolated case... https://www.newsweek.com/dc-abortion-pictures-reveal-uncomfortable-truths-opinion-1698021

This makes sense to me.  I've always been willing to compromise at "safe, legal and rare" but like you said, we've gone so far past that now.

There is always going to be another exception people try to put up as an excuse.  Rape and incest.  Health and lives of the child/mother.  Mental health of the mother is one of the newer ones.  The truth is though, most abortions are excuses for not wanting to deal with the consequences of the actions.

Maybe there is newer data, but a study updated in 2016 found

"claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape, 0.3%; in cases of incest, 0.03%; in cases of risk to maternal life, 0.1%; in cases of risk to maternal health, 0.8%; and in cases of fetal health issues, 0.5%. About 98.3% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons and possibly 0.1% each for sex selection and selective reduction of multifetal pregnancies."

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

Even reputable and competent medical authorities are unduly influenced...  When my wife was pregnant with our oldest, she was 34, so it was recommended that she see an OB/GYN experienced with higher-risk pregnancy.  He asked if she wanted genetic testing and we agreed (not that it would change any decisions, but we wanted to be prepared if we were going to have a child with any health issues).  The results of testing came in and we were told that the baby has a "higher risk" of Trisomy-18 (a condition which is "incompatible with life" according to the nurse who called with the results and reculcomended we come in to discuss things or to do an amniocentesis). The *first* thing we were told when we got there and getting counseled by a "genetic counselor" who was not an MD or RN before doing the amniocentesis was that we could go and get an abortion in Ohio because my wife was too far along to do it in NJ.  My wife was terrified, of course. I asked to speak with her OB/GYN and directly asked him to quantify what the "higher risk" looked like.  His response was that her risk increased from a sub-1% chance to about a 6% chance, based upon previous case outcomes.  Amniocentesis results clearly showed that the boy was fine (other than trying to grab the needle as the doc was trying to extract fluid from the placenta, and now that he is a teen, generally being a typical teenage asshole).

Non-medically-trained staff seem overeager in all cases to recommend abortion as your first option.  How many women (younger, naive, not married/partnered with a logical rather than emotional partner) have gotten the abortion without actually understanding the risk or going the extra step to confirm the risk?

Yes - many people would, if the amniocentesis showed conclusively that the baby would be still born, die soon after birth, or be incapable of anything more than a vegetative state, get an abortion.  But how many would have had healthy babies instead of killing them if they had been made aware of what the risks actually are as opposed to "higher risk" without quantifying it?

[Ghostmaker]

If you want to see the bastards twitch, there's an interesting little cottage industry that has sprung up as imaging technology and 3-D printing improves.

They can take the imaging data from sonograms or other prenatal scanning, and print up a kind of bas-relief 3-D image of an unborn child. We've come a long way since those crude, staticky sonogram images.

Sometimes, technology is fucking awesome.

[Mistwell]

A nation divided cannot stand and the cultural divide is too extreme.

I hope the new abortion kerfluffle creates a soft secession.

The more divergent laws between Red vs. Blue states, the better chance we can move toward complete Secession.

You ready to move?

[3catcircus]

A nation divided cannot stand and the cultural divide is too extreme.

I hope the new abortion kerfluffle creates a soft secession.

The more divergent laws between Red vs. Blue states, the better chance we can move toward complete Secession.

You ready to move?

Seems like plenty have already done so considering how many have been fleeing leftist states and leftist cities...

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture/3479076-americans-are-moving-out-of-major-cities-and-opting-for-southeastern-states-data-show/

Or, you know, instead of moving, people could just learn to mind their own business when it comes to dealing with their neighbors and always vote incumbents out of office.

[Pat]

A nation divided cannot stand and the cultural divide is too extreme.

I hope the new abortion kerfluffle creates a soft secession.

The more divergent laws between Red vs. Blue states, the better chance we can move toward complete Secession.

You ready to move?

Seems like plenty have already done so considering how many have been fleeing leftist states and leftist cities...

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture/3479076-americans-are-moving-out-of-major-cities-and-opting-for-southeastern-states-data-show/

There are certainly significant if broad demographic trends, but states and even cities are still fairly mixed. The real divide is happening is at the neighborhood level. One group goes to Starbucks and Whole Foods, voted for Biden, and doesn't know a single Trump supporter in their entire circle of friends. The other group goes to Rural King and Cracker Barrel, voted for Trump, and doesn't know a single Biden supporter in their entire circle of friends. And they frequently live just a few blocks away from each other.

We're seeing massive voluntary segregation, but it's not happening at the level of convenient political units. Instead, it's highly localized. That means it'll be impossible to gerrymander a Redlandia and a Bluetribeistan.

The only real practical solution is decentralization. Prevent blue neighborhoods from telling red neighborhoods how to live, and vice versa.

[Shasarak]

You know the Department of Disinformation is good when even the conspiracy nuts can not remember what they are being distracted from.

But yeah abortion eh?

[Mistwell]

A nation divided cannot stand and the cultural divide is too extreme.

I hope the new abortion kerfluffle creates a soft secession.

The more divergent laws between Red vs. Blue states, the better chance we can move toward complete Secession.

You ready to move?

Seems like plenty have already done so considering how many have been fleeing leftist states and leftist cities...

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture/3479076-americans-are-moving-out-of-major-cities-and-opting-for-southeastern-states-data-show/

Or, you know, instead of moving, people could just learn to mind their own business when it comes to dealing with their neighbors and always vote incumbents out of office.

The idea that you think that quantity is "plenty" in the context of literally balkanizing the nation along political lines is massive stupidity. That quantity is a rounding error on the scale we're talking about.

I guess maybe it's not surprising. All I get from this thread, over and over, is a lack of appreciation for the ramifications of actually splitting the nation along political lines. I think people think it will just neatly line up along some line with just minor stragglers left behind. California, which is far left, has roughly FORTY PERCENT RIGHT WINGERS. And that's what you find in a more extremely separated state. MOST states are far closer than that even. Balkanization on this scale is just plain extermination of millions.

[jeff37923]

A nation divided cannot stand and the cultural divide is too extreme.

I hope the new abortion kerfluffle creates a soft secession.

The more divergent laws between Red vs. Blue states, the better chance we can move toward complete Secession.

You ready to move?

Seems like plenty have already done so considering how many have been fleeing leftist states and leftist cities...

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture/3479076-americans-are-moving-out-of-major-cities-and-opting-for-southeastern-states-data-show/

Or, you know, instead of moving, people could just learn to mind their own business when it comes to dealing with their neighbors and always vote incumbents out of office.

The idea that you think that quantity is "plenty" in the context of literally balkanizing the nation along political lines is massive stupidity. That quantity is a rounding error on the scale we're talking about.

I guess maybe it's not surprising. All I get from this thread, over and over, is a lack of appreciation for the ramifications of actually splitting the nation along political lines. I think people think it will just neatly line up along some line with just minor stragglers left behind. California, which is far left, has roughly FORTY PERCENT RIGHT WINGERS. And that's what you find in a more extremely separated state. MOST states are far closer than that even. Balkanization on this scale is just plain extermination of millions.

The 40% right wingers will give themselves in noble sacrifice because.....

[Mistwell]

A nation divided cannot stand and the cultural divide is too extreme.

I hope the new abortion kerfluffle creates a soft secession.

The more divergent laws between Red vs. Blue states, the better chance we can move toward complete Secession.

You ready to move?

Seems like plenty have already done so considering how many have been fleeing leftist states and leftist cities...

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture/3479076-americans-are-moving-out-of-major-cities-and-opting-for-southeastern-states-data-show/

Or, you know, instead of moving, people could just learn to mind their own business when it comes to dealing with their neighbors and always vote incumbents out of office.

The idea that you think that quantity is "plenty" in the context of literally balkanizing the nation along political lines is massive stupidity. That quantity is a rounding error on the scale we're talking about.

I guess maybe it's not surprising. All I get from this thread, over and over, is a lack of appreciation for the ramifications of actually splitting the nation along political lines. I think people think it will just neatly line up along some line with just minor stragglers left behind. California, which is far left, has roughly FORTY PERCENT RIGHT WINGERS. And that's what you find in a more extremely separated state. MOST states are far closer than that even. Balkanization on this scale is just plain extermination of millions.

The 40% right wingers will give themselves in noble sacrifice because.....

That 40% is a larger Republican population than several Red states combined.

Balkanization means millions die in a horrible civil war that lasts decades and gets resolved in a compromise which is worse than we have right now. The better solution, for everyone including "your" side, is to find a way to make the nation work again without splitting it up. And however hard you think that is to accomplish it pales in comparison to how hard that war would be.

[jeff37923]

A nation divided cannot stand and the cultural divide is too extreme.

I hope the new abortion kerfluffle creates a soft secession.

The more divergent laws between Red vs. Blue states, the better chance we can move toward complete Secession.

You ready to move?

Seems like plenty have already done so considering how many have been fleeing leftist states and leftist cities...

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture/3479076-americans-are-moving-out-of-major-cities-and-opting-for-southeastern-states-data-show/

Or, you know, instead of moving, people could just learn to mind their own business when it comes to dealing with their neighbors and always vote incumbents out of office.

The idea that you think that quantity is "plenty" in the context of literally balkanizing the nation along political lines is massive stupidity. That quantity is a rounding error on the scale we're talking about.

I guess maybe it's not surprising. All I get from this thread, over and over, is a lack of appreciation for the ramifications of actually splitting the nation along political lines. I think people think it will just neatly line up along some line with just minor stragglers left behind. California, which is far left, has roughly FORTY PERCENT RIGHT WINGERS. And that's what you find in a more extremely separated state. MOST states are far closer than that even. Balkanization on this scale is just plain extermination of millions.

The 40% right wingers will give themselves in noble sacrifice because.....

That 40% is a larger Republican population than several Red states combined.

Republican or right winger? Those terms are not interchangeable. Except to a liar.

Balkanization means millions die in a horrible civil war that lasts decades and gets resolved in a compromise which is worse than we have right now. The better solution, for everyone including "your" side, is to find a way to make the nation work again without splitting it up. And however hard you think that is to accomplish it pales in comparison to how hard that war would be.

I dunno. "My" side seems to have more guns and knows how to shoot them. Kyle Rittenhouse demonstrated that. I see nothing wrong with returning the favor of burning, looting, and murder on those woke who were so devoted to using violence as a means to achieve a political end not that long ago.

[yancy]

I see nothing wrong with returning the favor of burning, looting, and murder on those woke who were so devoted to using violence as a means to achieve a political end not that long ago.

Not that long ago, and they seem like they're about ready to work themselves up to doing it again.

[Effete]

You criticize that I use conscious thought as a criteria because dogs have conscious thought - but then you propose heartbeat, when even fish or snails have heartbeats. It feels like you're not reading my question. In a science fiction story, if a new life form is encountered - would the determination of whether it is a person or not hinge on whether they have a heartbeat? Or would it be something else?

Within real-world medicine, while heartbeat is the easiest to measure, it isn't the ultimate criteria. If a person's heart fails but they still have a working brain, then doctors try to give them a replacement or artificial heart to continue their life. However, if someone is for sure brain dead then they are put to rest even if their heart is still working.

What defines us as people is our thoughts and feelings, not our blood circulation. Yes, it can be unclear where to draw the line - like when to declare a patient brain dead as their brain function goes away. But there are clear limits. If an infant is born with no brain whatsoever, like extreme anencephaly, then there is no question of trying to save the child.

I criticised the dog analogy on the basis that "conscious thought" is far too subjective a metric to base a law off of. How do you measure a fetus's level of cognition? It not like you can ask them a question. Rudimentary neural activity can be detected at 5-6 weeks. Is that the cutoff?

A heartbeat is an objective metric. You either have one or you don't. That's a good place to start when crafting a bill.

Also, can we not poison the well by bringing heart surgery or brain damage into this? The topic is when is the appropriate cutoff for abortion (if any).