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Author Topic: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?  (Read 60689 times)

Ratman_tf

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #525 on: May 04, 2022, 06:13:11 PM »
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
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Eirikrautha

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #526 on: May 04, 2022, 07:15:09 PM »
The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Sadly, the core issue has nothing to do with when human life begins.  It's about whether or not people are expected to live with the consequences of their own actions.  One does not randomly become pregnant.  And there is a large population of so-called "civilized" people (both male and female) who are willing to kill their own children in the womb to escape the consequences of sex.  At that point, there's very little hope that those people will ever seek understanding or compromise...

Zelen

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #527 on: May 04, 2022, 07:37:23 PM »
I don't think people realize, Balkanization has never been peaceful. That's a coward's fantasy. You should really look up the political and societal situation of Yugoslavia just before the civil war against Bosnia. Random groups of armed militias, vehicles kept in storage/national guard stockpile being pulled out for use. There is no peaceful resolution, but it seems just like Yugoslavia it will be ethnically oriented with politics being only half of it.

More or less agreed. This has always been a problem since the civil war in America, since the South wanted to secede from what's always been considered a voluntary union. However, the North, for economic reasons, didn't want to let them leave.

The same problem exists today, with DC & urban areas effectively wanting to enslave vast swathes of the country. Letting people secede peacefully would utterly collapse their regime & power, which cannot be permitted by any means.

Tait Ransom

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #528 on: May 04, 2022, 07:43:55 PM »
  The legal standing for Roe V Wade to be a federal law/ruling has been on thin ice since it was made.  Even RBG stated this several times and she said it would not win out in any sort of legitimate legal challenge.  If it gets over turned, and abortion becomes a state by state ruling, so be it.  It is how it should have been in the first place.
Roe v. Wade is a horrible law, because judges shouldn't be making laws. Especially when they claim it's somehow magically found in the Constitution, because that means the duly elected representatives of the people (however shitty they might be) can't overrule it, without the extreme measure of amending the Constitution.

NPR of course is freaking out, in their extreme leftist way.

I’ve seen a few friends losing their mind over this and using RBG as a rallying cry/totem.  I don’t have heart to tell them their beloved RBG thought it was a crap decision

GeekyBugle

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #529 on: May 04, 2022, 08:00:01 PM »
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.

Wait, in the USA murdering a pregnant woman doesn't land you with two accounts of murder?

Since I know the answer is yes then the legal status of the fetus has already been settled, if it's murder for anybody else to kill it then there's no reason to allow the mother to do so because muh empowerment.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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GeekyBugle

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #530 on: May 04, 2022, 08:04:33 PM »
The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Sadly, the core issue has nothing to do with when human life begins.  It's about whether or not people are expected to live with the consequences of their own actions.  One does not randomly become pregnant.  And there is a large population of so-called "civilized" people (both male and female) who are willing to kill their own children in the womb to escape the consequences of sex.  At that point, there's very little hope that those people will ever seek understanding or compromise...

While I agree that their core issue is to evade the responsability of their own actions the point at where it's alive is relevant since they love to argue it's not life or a human life.

Problem: Unwanted pregnancy.

Solutions:
1.- Don't have sex (alternatively anal/oral sex doesn't get you pregnant)
2.- Contraceptives
3.- Plan B
4.- Give it in adoption.
5.- Put on your big girl panties and pay the piper
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

oggsmash

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #531 on: May 04, 2022, 08:20:02 PM »
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.

Wait, in the USA murdering a pregnant woman doesn't land you with two accounts of murder?

Since I know the answer is yes then the legal status of the fetus has already been settled, if it's murder for anybody else to kill it then there's no reason to allow the mother to do so because muh empowerment.

  In most states yes, New York I think made new law that is was just murdering one, since they have an extremely late term abortion standard they did this to appear to at least be consistent. 

DocJones

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #532 on: May 04, 2022, 08:32:03 PM »
Wait, in the USA murdering a pregnant woman doesn't land you with two accounts of murder?

Since I know the answer is yes then the legal status of the fetus has already been settled, if it's murder for anybody else to kill it then there's no reason to allow the mother to do so because muh empowerment.
Yes, even in California.  The Scott Peterson case where he was convicted of two counts of murder for killing his pregnant wife.

In Ohio, a man was convicted of murder for beating his pregnant wife, which did not kill her but did cause the death of the child she was carrying.

It seems men don't have the right to abort their child. /sarc
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 08:35:03 PM by DocJones »

jeff37923

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #533 on: May 04, 2022, 08:52:14 PM »
The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Sadly, the core issue has nothing to do with when human life begins.  It's about whether or not people are expected to live with the consequences of their own actions.  One does not randomly become pregnant.  And there is a large population of so-called "civilized" people (both male and female) who are willing to kill their own children in the womb to escape the consequences of sex.  At that point, there's very little hope that those people will ever seek understanding or compromise...

I have to agree. The question is not about the binary of pro-choice or pro-life. The question is about the personal responsibility of the people involved when having sex.

"Meh."

Ratman_tf

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #534 on: May 04, 2022, 08:57:21 PM »
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.

Wait, in the USA murdering a pregnant woman doesn't land you with two accounts of murder?

Since I know the answer is yes then the legal status of the fetus has already been settled,

Not according to the last 50 years of legal abortions.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #535 on: May 04, 2022, 08:59:45 PM »
The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Sadly, the core issue has nothing to do with when human life begins.  It's about whether or not people are expected to live with the consequences of their own actions.  One does not randomly become pregnant.  And there is a large population of so-called "civilized" people (both male and female) who are willing to kill their own children in the womb to escape the consequences of sex.  At that point, there's very little hope that those people will ever seek understanding or compromise...

If you don't think a fetus has the same rights as a baby, is not a "person", for whatever that means, then the consequences are simply use abortion as post-conception birth control.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Mistwell

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #536 on: May 04, 2022, 09:57:49 PM »
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/

I hadn't seen that one before. Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting it.

SHARK

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #537 on: May 04, 2022, 11:50:15 PM »
The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Sadly, the core issue has nothing to do with when human life begins.  It's about whether or not people are expected to live with the consequences of their own actions.  One does not randomly become pregnant.  And there is a large population of so-called "civilized" people (both male and female) who are willing to kill their own children in the womb to escape the consequences of sex.  At that point, there's very little hope that those people will ever seek understanding or compromise...

While I agree that their core issue is to evade the responsability of their own actions the point at where it's alive is relevant since they love to argue it's not life or a human life.

Problem: Unwanted pregnancy.

Solutions:
1.- Don't have sex (alternatively anal/oral sex doesn't get you pregnant)
2.- Contraceptives
3.- Plan B
4.- Give it in adoption.
5.- Put on your big girl panties and pay the piper

Greetings!

Exactly, Hermano!

I agree entirely.

There are many "Choices" that women can make when pregnant. It is sad that the whore's "choice" is always to murder the innocent baby growing in her belly. Roe V. Wade has been a terrible moral calamity upon our nation since it's inception. Hoefully, this Supreme Court will correct such a deep moral failure, and overturn Roe V. Wade. Let each state--and it's people--decide how they want to deal with abortion.

The cock-sucking pussy Liberals don't like it? Whaa! Whaa! They can sob in their fucking safe space and *REEE*. Oh, so sad when the wheels of the state turn against you. Grind, grind, grind. Let them all get chewed up by the alligators.

I saw one article TikTok thingy where some bitch was crying about how this court decision will "Ruin Hook Up Culture!"

Fucking whores.

Let the whores get pumped and dumped, and as they hit the fucking WALL, they can marinate in their memories of riding the cock carousel, now that they are doomed to be alone with their wine and fucking cats. Boo fucking hoo.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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jhkim

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #538 on: May 05, 2022, 12:55:24 AM »
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.

Relying on federal law for abortion rights would mean flip-flopping status over the years as Democratic congresses and Republican congresses pass competing laws that change them. Many other core rights have relied on court decisions, like the right to inter-racial marriage. That had been in the hands of state legislatures, but the piecemeal and back-and-forth of state laws made it extremely difficult for couples - such that the Supreme Court took it out of legislatures' hands.

For my two cents on "life starts at conception", I think it makes no sense to call a zygote a person. What makes a person a person is their conscious mind and soul, not their DNA. We regularly create life by growing human tissue samples or creating zygotes for in vitro fertilization (IVF). It is never considered abortions or murder. If someone has their head blown off, we consider them dead, even if we could keep their heart beating - because what defines a person is their thoughts and feelings. A single cell can be alive - but it isn't anywhere close to a person.

Further, zygotes have never been considered people legally or even religiously in the past. If someone discovers they are pregnant, they cannot immediately claim an additional dependent on their taxes. The zygote is not issued a social security number, or registered at all. In short, it is not considered legally a person for anything *except* being killed. Historically, in Christian churches, a pregnancy was not immediately given a Christian name -- and if there was a failed implantation or miscarriage, the expelled tissue was not christened, baptized, or buried on hallowed ground.

Regarding the other topic of responsibility, I feel the primary responsibility is to care for children who are born. The majority of those seeking abortions are already mothers - typically someone whose birth control with their partner failed, who feels that they cannot care for an additional child, and are trying to be responsible to the child or children they already have.

jhkim

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #539 on: May 05, 2022, 12:58:19 AM »
Though also - keeping this on topic - I don't think overturning Roe v. Wade would increase the incentive of either blue states or red states to secede. People in blue states would experience no change in rights since state law would keep abortions legal, while red states would outlaw abortion.