It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?

[Shasarak]

There has hardly been any troubles since we got two different Irelands.

Seems like Balkanisation works well.

[jeff37923]

We do NOT want a balkanized USA.

Just returned from Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK.

Catholic neighborhoods have walls around them, with gates that close anywhere from 6:30pm to 9:30pm.

Every school has to be duplicated: one Catholic school, and one Protestant school.

Once a year they build huge bonfires near Catholic neighborhoods (sometimes as high as 12 stories tall) to remind everyone of William of Orange's conquest of Ireland, where they burn Irish flags and have F the Pope signs. They also do marches. During both events, teens routinely throw rocks, eggs, and other objects at Catholic houses (over the fences) such that the Catholic houses had to erect fencing at their roof-line to stop such projectiles from hitting their homes. The Catholics also do bonfires, where they burn British flags. Because the UK supports Israel, the Catholics support Palestine, so you see Israel or Palestinian flags all over depending on the neighborhood, despite it very much seeming like nobody actually knows much of anything about Israel or Palestine or that conflict.

Every older person knows someone who was either 1) killed during the Troubles by the other side, or 2) imprisoned for killing someone from the other side, or 3) both.

To create peace, BOTH major political parties must by law share leadership power. So if the Ulster party (the Loyalist/British/Protestant party) wins, then Sinn Fein (the Republic/Irish/Catholic) party leader is also placed in equal power in leadership, and vice versa.

There are billboards showing men armed with machine guns dressed in all black around town, with statements about "protecting their cultural identity." As money dried up overseas to support these militias, they turned to drugs sales and other similar crimes to fund their militia efforts to "remain ready" to defend their culture. This appears to be true for both the IRA and the UVF.

Here is an example of one I saw (this one happens to be a UVF one, which is the Loyalist/British/Protestant sides militia):



This is what a balkanized nation looks like. We don't want that. There has got to be a better way to focus on common ground than turning to that sort of solution.

I call bullshit.

This image came from a news story from Mar 16-17, 2021 where a Leo Varadkar was threatened via graffiti. The same story was reported in several newspapers. It isn't recent at all and it sure as fuck didn't "just happen" while you were being a tourist over the weekend.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-investigate-latest-graffiti-threat-to-leo-varadkar-in-belfast-40205886.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0316/1204469-varadkar-graffiti/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/varadkar-s-address-daubed-on-belfast-wall-in-latest-graffiti-threat-1.4512783

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/leo-varadkar-graffiti-belfast-address-20195163

https://www.independent.ie/videos/sinister-leo-varadkar-graffiti-written-on-wall-in-east-belfast-40206801.html

Oh for fuck's sake I didn't say it "just happened" I said I just saw it there. And I did, as we drove by in a cab. It's still there. So are a half dozen others on the peace wall. They didn't take it down at all.  And it's not the graffiti next to it in those articles I saw (I don't recall seeing that) it's the billboard I posted that I saw.

I'm curious Jeff. You've proven the billboard was put up. Which was my point. What point do you think you're making by falsely calling me a liar about having just gotten back from there and having seen the billboard (and others)? I am pretty sure there are people here who know me on Facebook and saw me post the pictures this past 2 weeks from there (I have some good photos of some Game of Thrones locations if you'd like to see them, and even one of Titanic Studios which just completed shooting the D&D movie). Where the fuck are you going with this?

Tell you what Jeff why don't you go ahead and Google Ulster Volunteer Force and see what you find on your own. You will see they are real, they do put up stuff like that, it's not taken down, it's very real and there right now. This is in fact a reality in Belfast right now. It's what a Balkanized nation looks like.

Here this guy has been gathering some pictures of billboards around Belfast. Fascinating stuff.

Thank you for confirming that you are nothing but a tourist who is so wrapped up in his own pretentiousness that he thinks a vacation in Ireland qualifies him to judge what is best for either the USA or any other country. I don't give a fuck about your pictures of the Game of Thrones sets or the D&D movie because none of that demonstrates any fucking insight into Ireland the country, Ireland the culture, or Ireland the people who live there. You are a TOURIST. A pseudointellectual wonk who thinks that because something has been on an HBO fantasy series that it has enough lasting historical significance to fly internationally to visit the damn things - and that tourist visit qualifies you to speak on events in Ireland.

Frankly, you piss me off because every time you post something like this you remind me of a caricature of an American as viewed through the eyes of someone from a foreign country. Loud and clueless, only there for a short time.

[Mistwell]

There has hardly been any troubles since we got two different Irelands.

Seems like Balkanisation works well.

And I am saying it didn't. It's worse there than here right now.

[Mistwell]

We do NOT want a balkanized USA.

Just returned from Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK.

Catholic neighborhoods have walls around them, with gates that close anywhere from 6:30pm to 9:30pm.

Every school has to be duplicated: one Catholic school, and one Protestant school.

Once a year they build huge bonfires near Catholic neighborhoods (sometimes as high as 12 stories tall) to remind everyone of William of Orange's conquest of Ireland, where they burn Irish flags and have F the Pope signs. They also do marches. During both events, teens routinely throw rocks, eggs, and other objects at Catholic houses (over the fences) such that the Catholic houses had to erect fencing at their roof-line to stop such projectiles from hitting their homes. The Catholics also do bonfires, where they burn British flags. Because the UK supports Israel, the Catholics support Palestine, so you see Israel or Palestinian flags all over depending on the neighborhood, despite it very much seeming like nobody actually knows much of anything about Israel or Palestine or that conflict.

Every older person knows someone who was either 1) killed during the Troubles by the other side, or 2) imprisoned for killing someone from the other side, or 3) both.

To create peace, BOTH major political parties must by law share leadership power. So if the Ulster party (the Loyalist/British/Protestant party) wins, then Sinn Fein (the Republic/Irish/Catholic) party leader is also placed in equal power in leadership, and vice versa.

There are billboards showing men armed with machine guns dressed in all black around town, with statements about "protecting their cultural identity." As money dried up overseas to support these militias, they turned to drugs sales and other similar crimes to fund their militia efforts to "remain ready" to defend their culture. This appears to be true for both the IRA and the UVF.

Here is an example of one I saw (this one happens to be a UVF one, which is the Loyalist/British/Protestant sides militia):



This is what a balkanized nation looks like. We don't want that. There has got to be a better way to focus on common ground than turning to that sort of solution.

I call bullshit.

This image came from a news story from Mar 16-17, 2021 where a Leo Varadkar was threatened via graffiti. The same story was reported in several newspapers. It isn't recent at all and it sure as fuck didn't "just happen" while you were being a tourist over the weekend.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-investigate-latest-graffiti-threat-to-leo-varadkar-in-belfast-40205886.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0316/1204469-varadkar-graffiti/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/varadkar-s-address-daubed-on-belfast-wall-in-latest-graffiti-threat-1.4512783

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/leo-varadkar-graffiti-belfast-address-20195163

https://www.independent.ie/videos/sinister-leo-varadkar-graffiti-written-on-wall-in-east-belfast-40206801.html

Oh for fuck's sake I didn't say it "just happened" I said I just saw it there. And I did, as we drove by in a cab. It's still there. So are a half dozen others on the peace wall. They didn't take it down at all.  And it's not the graffiti next to it in those articles I saw (I don't recall seeing that) it's the billboard I posted that I saw.

I'm curious Jeff. You've proven the billboard was put up. Which was my point. What point do you think you're making by falsely calling me a liar about having just gotten back from there and having seen the billboard (and others)? I am pretty sure there are people here who know me on Facebook and saw me post the pictures this past 2 weeks from there (I have some good photos of some Game of Thrones locations if you'd like to see them, and even one of Titanic Studios which just completed shooting the D&D movie). Where the fuck are you going with this?

Tell you what Jeff why don't you go ahead and Google Ulster Volunteer Force and see what you find on your own. You will see they are real, they do put up stuff like that, it's not taken down, it's very real and there right now. This is in fact a reality in Belfast right now. It's what a Balkanized nation looks like.

Here this guy has been gathering some pictures of billboards around Belfast. Fascinating stuff.

Thank you for confirming that you are nothing but a tourist who is so wrapped up in his own pretentiousness that he thinks a vacation in Ireland qualifies him to judge what is best for either the USA or any other country.

Jesus fuck Jeff I never claimed to have been there for geo political reasons. I just claimed I had been there last week.

What is wrong with you? Why did you call me a liar, over this?

I don't give a fuck about your pictures of the Game of Thrones sets or the D&D movie because none of that demonstrates any fucking insight into Ireland the country, Ireland the culture, or Ireland the people who live there. You are a TOURIST. A pseudointellectual wonk who thinks that because something has been on an HBO fantasy series that it has enough lasting historical significance to fly internationally to visit the damn things - and that tourist visit qualifies you to speak on events in Ireland.

Are you just fucking dumb? I was simply describing some photos I have because you accused me of being a liar about having been there last week. I didn't go there FOR Game of Thrones locations (I didn't even recall it was filmed there, until I got there, but I did think that was cool). In fact I was not even there to be a tourist but the reasons I was there are none of your fucking business. But I will say I was with people who live there, who are from there and whose family is from there, and whose ancestors have lived there at least since the 1700s. They were there for the peak of The Troubles and are still there now. They were able to provide deep insight into what's happening in Northern Ireland today.

Again, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? Why did you call me a liar about being there last week, and why are you now pretending that didn't just happen as if you can just get away with calling me a liar and then, when called out on it, act like none of that happened?

Frankly, you piss me off because every time you post something like this you remind me of a caricature of an American as viewed through the eyes of someone from a foreign country. Loud and clueless, only there for a short time.

Do you have anything to say about any of the points I made, or are you simply gong to bloviate about bullshit which has nothing to do with the topic, and pretend you didn't call me a liar when I was telling the truth?

Northern Ireland is Balkanized. The Catholic neighborhoods are walled in with gates in Belfast. They do have two schools for most locations: one catholic and one protestant, and it's a huge waste of money to do that. They do burn shit every year in massive bonfires, and throw stuff at each other every year, and threaten violence every year. It's hard to get a job sometimes if you're the wrong religion, and the do ask.

Sometimes it breaks into real violence. The situation with the split isn't all happy happy joy joy. We do not want that situation here.

It's not better than what we have right now. It would be better to find a way to work together again rather than go for that Balkanized solution.

[yancy]

Okay grandpa, we've all heard about your guided tour and vacation in Northern Ireland a million times now, get back in the day room and go talk to your friends, it's almost time for dinner & meds.

[jeff37923]

We do NOT want a balkanized USA.

Just returned from Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK.

Catholic neighborhoods have walls around them, with gates that close anywhere from 6:30pm to 9:30pm.

Every school has to be duplicated: one Catholic school, and one Protestant school.

Once a year they build huge bonfires near Catholic neighborhoods (sometimes as high as 12 stories tall) to remind everyone of William of Orange's conquest of Ireland, where they burn Irish flags and have F the Pope signs. They also do marches. During both events, teens routinely throw rocks, eggs, and other objects at Catholic houses (over the fences) such that the Catholic houses had to erect fencing at their roof-line to stop such projectiles from hitting their homes. The Catholics also do bonfires, where they burn British flags. Because the UK supports Israel, the Catholics support Palestine, so you see Israel or Palestinian flags all over depending on the neighborhood, despite it very much seeming like nobody actually knows much of anything about Israel or Palestine or that conflict.

Every older person knows someone who was either 1) killed during the Troubles by the other side, or 2) imprisoned for killing someone from the other side, or 3) both.

To create peace, BOTH major political parties must by law share leadership power. So if the Ulster party (the Loyalist/British/Protestant party) wins, then Sinn Fein (the Republic/Irish/Catholic) party leader is also placed in equal power in leadership, and vice versa.

There are billboards showing men armed with machine guns dressed in all black around town, with statements about "protecting their cultural identity." As money dried up overseas to support these militias, they turned to drugs sales and other similar crimes to fund their militia efforts to "remain ready" to defend their culture. This appears to be true for both the IRA and the UVF.

Here is an example of one I saw (this one happens to be a UVF one, which is the Loyalist/British/Protestant sides militia):



This is what a balkanized nation looks like. We don't want that. There has got to be a better way to focus on common ground than turning to that sort of solution.

I call bullshit.

This image came from a news story from Mar 16-17, 2021 where a Leo Varadkar was threatened via graffiti. The same story was reported in several newspapers. It isn't recent at all and it sure as fuck didn't "just happen" while you were being a tourist over the weekend.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-investigate-latest-graffiti-threat-to-leo-varadkar-in-belfast-40205886.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0316/1204469-varadkar-graffiti/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/varadkar-s-address-daubed-on-belfast-wall-in-latest-graffiti-threat-1.4512783

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/leo-varadkar-graffiti-belfast-address-20195163

https://www.independent.ie/videos/sinister-leo-varadkar-graffiti-written-on-wall-in-east-belfast-40206801.html

Oh for fuck's sake I didn't say it "just happened" I said I just saw it there. And I did, as we drove by in a cab. It's still there. So are a half dozen others on the peace wall. They didn't take it down at all.  And it's not the graffiti next to it in those articles I saw (I don't recall seeing that) it's the billboard I posted that I saw.

I'm curious Jeff. You've proven the billboard was put up. Which was my point. What point do you think you're making by falsely calling me a liar about having just gotten back from there and having seen the billboard (and others)? I am pretty sure there are people here who know me on Facebook and saw me post the pictures this past 2 weeks from there (I have some good photos of some Game of Thrones locations if you'd like to see them, and even one of Titanic Studios which just completed shooting the D&D movie). Where the fuck are you going with this?

Tell you what Jeff why don't you go ahead and Google Ulster Volunteer Force and see what you find on your own. You will see they are real, they do put up stuff like that, it's not taken down, it's very real and there right now. This is in fact a reality in Belfast right now. It's what a Balkanized nation looks like.

Here this guy has been gathering some pictures of billboards around Belfast. Fascinating stuff.

Thank you for confirming that you are nothing but a tourist who is so wrapped up in his own pretentiousness that he thinks a vacation in Ireland qualifies him to judge what is best for either the USA or any other country.

Jesus fuck Jeff I never claimed to have been there for geo political reasons. I just claimed I had been there last week.

What is wrong with you? Why did you call me a liar, over this?

I don't give a fuck about your pictures of the Game of Thrones sets or the D&D movie because none of that demonstrates any fucking insight into Ireland the country, Ireland the culture, or Ireland the people who live there. You are a TOURIST. A pseudointellectual wonk who thinks that because something has been on an HBO fantasy series that it has enough lasting historical significance to fly internationally to visit the damn things - and that tourist visit qualifies you to speak on events in Ireland.

Are you just fucking dumb? I was simply describing some photos I have because you accused me of being a liar about having been there last week. I didn't go there FOR Game of Thrones locations (I didn't even recall it was filmed there, until I got there, but I did think that was cool). In fact I was not even there to be a tourist but the reasons I was there are none of your fucking business. But I will say I was with people who live there, who are from there and whose family is from there, and whose ancestors have lived there at least since the 1700s. They were there for the peak of The Troubles and are still there now. They were able to provide deep insight into what's happening in Northern Ireland today.

Again, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? Why did you call me a liar about being there last week, and why are you now pretending that didn't just happen as if you can just get away with calling me a liar and then, when called out on it, act like none of that happened?

Frankly, you piss me off because every time you post something like this you remind me of a caricature of an American as viewed through the eyes of someone from a foreign country. Loud and clueless, only there for a short time.

Do you have anything to say about any of the points I made, or are you simply gong to bloviate about bullshit which has nothing to do with the topic, and pretend you didn't call me a liar when I was telling the truth?

Northern Ireland is Balkanized. The Catholic neighborhoods are walled in with gates in Belfast. They do have two schools for most locations: one catholic and one protestant, and it's a huge waste of money to do that. They do burn shit every year in massive bonfires, and throw stuff at each other every year, and threaten violence every year. It's hard to get a job sometimes if you're the wrong religion, and the do ask. Sometimes it breaks into real violence. The situation with the split isn't all happy happy joy joy. We do not want that situation here.

It's not better than what we have right now. It would be better to find a way to work together again rather than go for that Balkanized solution.

Dude, you are a liar. That pic you chose to illustrate how awful it is in Ireland is from a year ago at least. Looking at it, the banner looks like an ad banner you could have made at any number of print shops and they don't last a year when exposed to the elements outside. You just threw that pic up thinking that if it looks scary enough, it will make your point for you.

You mentioned that people in Ireland are denied employment if they are not the correct religion, kinda like how people are denied employment in the USA if they are not leftist enough for the job. Wrong religions get harassed in Ireland while wrong political thought gets harassed in America. You talk about marches and violence and vandalism which happens once a year instigated by each side. Were you just fucking asleep during the Black Lives Matter and Antifa riots not too long ago? There was burning, looting, and murder in those! You just think that the same behaviors are more horrible in a foreign country where you are being a tourist than when it happens here in your own nation because your image of Ireland being something out of Darby O'Gill and the Little People where you could vacation was shattered by reality. Hypocrite!

You are being a duplicitous little shitweasel and I'm saying that you are beyond being merely intellectually dishonest.

And note, up until now I haven't called you a liar. I've said that I call bullshit. You claimed I called you a liar first in order to try and curry some sympathy from the readers.

[Pat]

Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.

That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.

You mean like having a southern part of the country and a northern part of the country where people from each side can go to one or the other? That kind of "space"?

No, that's not even vaguely what I'm talking about. I'm talking about decentralization, not splitting into two. Why not read what I said, instead of trying to impose your latest argument on unrelated posts?

[fixable]

Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.

I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.

[oggsmash]

  It is enshrined in law in the USA, that is markedly easier to get into college or get a job based on qualifications if you are not white.  Is that the sort of common ground that is going to make everything OK in the USA? 

[oggsmash]

Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.

I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.

  Where do you go when one side calls their opposition nazis and fascists?  Well you get that side calling their opposition pedophiles and groomers.  Guess what you get a few years after that?  Talk time is done and then it get fugly.

   So name calling the worst thing you can think of means you either want the other person to just shut up and go away...or you get them to react in the same way...which leads to a fight.  Lefties picked a fight, and now it looks to me like they are really reconsidering that path and trying to suddenly use reason.

[Mistwell]

Dude, you are a liar. That pic you chose to illustrate how awful it is in Ireland is from a year ago at least. Looking at it, the banner looks like an ad banner you could have made at any number of print shops and they don't last a year when exposed to the elements outside. You just threw that pic up thinking that if it looks scary enough, it will make your point for you.

Oh my fucking God Jeff, that banner is there right now. I didn't personally take a picture of it because I was in a cab, so I found a shot someone else took of it on the web (and I never said or implied otherwise). It is in fact there right now. It looks exactly like that right now.

Why on earth would I make this up? I WAS just there. I did see it, and others. I gave you a link to a guy who takes pictures of these things throughout Belfast and he posted a rather similar one THREE DAYS AGO. Are you claiming this stuff isn't in Northern Ireland? If not, what the fuck is your point? I don't think you have one beyond just attacking me rather than my argument.

You mentioned that people in Ireland are denied employment if they are not the correct religion, kinda like how people are denied employment in the USA if they are not leftist enough for the job.

I am saying it's worse. When it happens in the US it's rare and makes the news. When it happens in Belfast it's just another day and an ordinary job.

Wrong religions get harassed in Ireland while wrong political thought gets harassed in America. You talk about marches and violence and vandalism which happens once a year instigated by each side. Were you just fucking asleep during the Black Lives Matter and Antifa riots not too long ago? There was burning, looting, and murder in those!

Yes Jeff, that is my point. If you Balkanize, that stuff doesn't go away it becomes standardized and worse. This is the 'good' times in Belfast now. They went through hundreds and hundreds of murders before this for decades! We don't want that situation.

You just think that the same behaviors are more horrible in a foreign country where you are being a tourist than when it happens here in your own nation because your image of Ireland being something out of Darby O'Gill and the Little People where you could vacation was shattered by reality. Hypocrite!

Wow Jeff you totally missed my point. No, I think this is what your "solution" looks like. It's worse than what we have right now.  To get to this point they went essentially a civil war and it never ended with splitting people up.  And again, I was not there as a tourist or on vacation, but you keep slinging those lies m'kay?

You are being a duplicitous little shitweasel and I'm saying that you are beyond being merely intellectually dishonest.

And note, up until now I haven't called you a liar. I've said that I call bullshit. You claimed I called you a liar first in order to try and curry some sympathy from the readers.

And I am saying nothing I said was in any way bullshit or a lie, you just don't have a good response to it so you replaced a cogent response with foaming spittle mad dog anger.

Tell you what Jeff, if I had someone go take a picture of that billboard this week and I posted it, THEN would you believe me? Though I continue to fail to see your point - you agree that billboard was put up (and that I was just there) and I have no idea why you think it being there this week is meaningfully different from it being there last year for this debate, but then you have no points in this conversation so far beyond personal attacks and "nuh uh!" to deflect from the conversation so I guess that's par for the course.

[The Spaniard]

Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.

That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.

Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.

[Mistwell]

Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.

That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.

Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.

Right, it doesn't happen peacefully. AT BEST it happens like it did in Ireland. And then AT BEST you get a situation like they have right now as a long term end result after a lot of violence, and that situation is worse than the situation we have right now. That's my point. It doesn't work like you guys think. The end result isn't in any way "clean". People don't just all leave to group with like minded people in the same location. A lot stay behind, and they get funded by those who have a grudge from the violent times, and those grudges don't go away. People define their lives by those grudges for generations, and the grudge becomes the goal with whatever ethics originally driving that cause long discarded in pursuit of revenge. Troubles continue in all regions because of that. This doesn't solve the problems it just outlines them more and makes them worse.

[The Spaniard]

Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.

That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.

Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.

Right, it doesn't happen peacefully. AT BEST it happens like it did in Ireland. And then AT BEST you get a situation like they have right now as a long term end result after a lot of violence, and that situation is worse than the situation we have right now. That's my point. It doesn't work like you guys think. The end result isn't in any way "clean". People don't just all leave to group with like minded people in the same location. A lot stay behind, and they get funded by those who have a grudge from the violent times, and those grudges don't go away. People define their lives by those grudges for generations, and the grudge becomes the goal with whatever ethics originally driving that cause long discarded in pursuit of revenge. Troubles continue in all regions because of that. This doesn't solve the problems it just outlines them more and makes them worse.

Who is "you guys"?  Although many would like to separate peacefully, I am under no illusion it will actually happen that way.  I agree it will likely end as you suggest.

[Mistwell]

Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.

That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.

Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.

Right, it doesn't happen peacefully. AT BEST it happens like it did in Ireland. And then AT BEST you get a situation like they have right now as a long term end result after a lot of violence, and that situation is worse than the situation we have right now. That's my point. It doesn't work like you guys think. The end result isn't in any way "clean". People don't just all leave to group with like minded people in the same location. A lot stay behind, and they get funded by those who have a grudge from the violent times, and those grudges don't go away. People define their lives by those grudges for generations, and the grudge becomes the goal with whatever ethics originally driving that cause long discarded in pursuit of revenge. Troubles continue in all regions because of that. This doesn't solve the problems it just outlines them more and makes them worse.

Who is "you guys"?  Although many would like to separate peacefully, I am under no illusion it will actually happen that way.  I agree it will likely end as you suggest.

Sorry, you're right. Should not have said you guys. I mean the people who think this will just work out fine and dandy and end up better than what we have right now (which I agree isn't good).