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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Spinachcat on June 08, 2020, 09:29:11 PM

Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on June 08, 2020, 09:29:11 PM
The USA is divided beyond hope of healing and we have no common ground with our enemies.
The Left has their vision of future and the Right will not submit.
I do not want Boogaloo.
I do not want civil war.
But its clearly high time for the USA to balkanize.
I don't know how that happens peacefully.

Any ideas?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: spon on June 09, 2020, 06:34:26 AM
I don't think the words "Balkan" and "peaceful" go together. At least not if Europe is the model. I would expect some unpleasantness down the road if the US broke up - "political cleansing" perhaps? Would the federal government allow it - whether Dem or Repub don't they make the most money with the US as a single entity? Not much pork to go around if you're a poor independent state. It would have to be grass-roots led, as the top would not be interested. Is that enough?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Snark Knight on June 09, 2020, 07:44:47 AM
The Right will not submit? The Right's been giving ground for decades in the name of so called 'compromise' (which just ends up being quiet submission).
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DELETE THIS on June 09, 2020, 09:19:39 AM
Commiefornia - Cali, Washing State, Oregon, maybe Colorado, possibly parts of AZ and NM depending on if people leave before it goes down, parts of Idaho
Texlahoana - Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, maybe Arkansas
The SOUTH - Bama, Georgia, Mississippi, maybe SC too
Floridamanland - Florida is diverse enough and weird enough it might survive alone
The Commie South - Virginia, NC, eastern Tennessee
Ohio Basin - Ohio, Kentucky, Western Tennesee
Damned Yankee Land - You know where...except oddly enough probably excluding upstate NY and Maine
Leave us alone - ND, SD, Montana, Wyoming, Kansas, maybe Iowa
Chicagoland - Loosely affiliated city-states of Madison, Chicago, and Milwaukee
Mormon Paradise - Utah, southern Idaho
Vegas - Autonomous, Reno erects a wall around itself like Berlin to keep out the Californians
Missouri would most likely be its own state, given that they hate Kansas but really share nothing in common with anyone else in the area

But that's like some idealized RPG Balkanization...realistically, everyone in the rural areas walls off the liberal cities and it's Escape from NY, but replace NY with every large city run by Democrats.

"Peacefully"...the only way I can see that happening is if so many people die from a blight or something catastrophic (LOL @ Corona) that they're forced to become more self-reliant and the population contracts so much interstate trade becomes somewhat stagnant.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1133204
I do not want Boogaloo.

Neither did George Washington, but sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. Make sure you at least have a Hawaiian shirt on hand just in case.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 09, 2020, 09:41:59 AM
Not happening. At least, not peacefully.

Kurt Schlichter has written some novels about the fallout from a 'national divorce', and I think he's optimistic about the results. The liberal left simply cannot allow the majority red states to leave anyways. Why, they might get the idea they can do what they want, not what their betters in LA decree!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 09, 2020, 10:34:56 AM
From a international perspective....It would be Catastrophic at the very least. A balkanized USA could not stand to China or Russia (Russias not as tough but still).

From a national perspective....It could not happen without voilence unless the liberal states wanted to dump the red states.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 09, 2020, 10:48:40 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1133204
The USA is divided beyond hope of healing and we have no common ground with our enemies.
The Left has their vision of future and the Right will not submit.
I do not want Boogaloo.
I do not want civil war.
But its clearly high time for the USA to balkanize.
I don't know how that happens peacefully.

Any ideas?

In a democracy, our solution is usually something we call "elections."

 Really, as has been noted, balkanization and peaceful don't play well together. And if by balkanization you mean hostile groups hopelessly intertwined on the ground, then you got it already. Not many states are overwhelmingly blue or overwhelmingly red, your conservative states are peppered with liberal cities, your liberal states have conservative hinterlands. Whichever side you are on, your "enemies" live among you. They don't neatly live way off in some other state. You can't disentangle all that with simple secessionist fantasies.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 09, 2020, 11:09:00 AM
Really in my opinion its time to defund the universities. Do it and watch tensions crumble (over 10 years or so).
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DocJones on June 09, 2020, 12:20:46 PM
Quote from: Brad;1133252
Commiefornia - Cali, Washing State, Oregon, maybe Colorado, possibly parts of AZ and NM depending on if people leave before it goes down, parts of Idaho
Texlahoana - Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, maybe Arkansas
The SOUTH - Bama, Georgia, Mississippi, maybe SC too
Floridamanland - Florida is diverse enough and weird enough it might survive alone
The Commie South - Virginia, NC, eastern Tennessee
Ohio Basin - Ohio, Kentucky, Western Tennesee
Damned Yankee Land - You know where...except oddly enough probably excluding upstate NY and Maine
Leave us alone - ND, SD, Montana, Wyoming, Kansas, maybe Iowa
Chicagoland - Loosely affiliated city-states of Madison, Chicago, and Milwaukee
Mormon Paradise - Utah, southern Idaho
Vegas - Autonomous, Reno erects a wall around itself like Berlin to keep out the Californians
Missouri would most likely be its own state, given that they hate Kansas but really share nothing in common with anyone else in the area

I can't wait for the campaign source book.  :-)
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Snark Knight on June 09, 2020, 01:09:57 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133267
In a democracy, our solution is usually something we call "elections."
My guess is that their next step will be to legalise a way of being able to cross-reference names with which candidate they voted for. The way the Left keeps getting blindsided by things like Trump and Brexit because the silent majority don't want to risk their careers/lives on speaking Wrong Think aloud, which they can do in the voting booth. This will naturally lead them to try and 'give nazis no safe places to hide', though it will probably be under the guise of preventing voter fraud/foreign agents.

Quote from: DocJones;1133279
I can't wait for the campaign source book.  :-)
Well there is a new edition of Twilight 2000 coming out...
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2020, 02:02:38 PM
I mention amicable divorce 5 months ago and everyone felt it was a reach.   Now it seems like the recent events have made it a bit more acceptable.   Only way it happens is We have a system of city states.  They will likely be blue, and they can live by their rules.  Will never happen though, as cities are WAY too fragile to exist on their own.  The states could agree that people of a particular "faith" get their one time chance to relocate or hold their peace, which will not work.  I see no way it happens without a vigorous fight.  I suspect where the military at large sides will determine the outcome.  Given the voting habits of the military and especially combat troops, it is already decided how that goes.  Then I guess it depends on how gracious the "winners" are regarding the next move, whether it is subjugation or separation.  

    As for standing up to China or Russia, who gives a shit?  The USA has not stood up to china for over 20 years till recently, and most of that is theatre.  If Europe has issue with China or Russa, then they should put money where mouth is and work that out.  Less foreign entanglements is not in any way unattractive to me.  Besides, half the USA military is still about 5 times china or russia.  IMO we have waaay too much military as it is.  Let's give what the founding fathers had in mind regarding military.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2020, 02:04:59 PM
Quote from: Snark Knight;1133287
My guess is that their next step will be to legalise a way of being able to cross-reference names with which candidate they voted for. The way the Left keeps getting blindsided by things like Trump and Brexit because the silent majority don't want to risk their careers/lives on speaking Wrong Think aloud, which they can do in the voting booth. This will naturally lead them to try and 'give nazis no safe places to hide', though it will probably be under the guise of preventing voter fraud/foreign agents.


Well there is a new edition of Twilight 2000 coming out...

  Yeah, leftism has already been fighting a war, whether mining twitter for 8 year old tweets or digging through campaign contributions on referendums to de person people.  At some point I do feel, if you give enough people no job, create atmosphere where they are unemployable, they will take some form of action other than binge drinking or suicide.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2020, 02:05:55 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133267
In a democracy, our solution is usually something we call "elections."

 Really, as has been noted, balkanization and peaceful don't play well together. And if by balkanization you mean hostile groups hopelessly intertwined on the ground, then you got it already. Not many states are overwhelmingly blue or overwhelmingly red, your conservative states are peppered with liberal cities, your liberal states have conservative hinterlands. Whichever side you are on, your "enemies" live among you. They don't neatly live way off in some other state. You can't disentangle all that with simple secessionist fantasies.

  With simple fantasies?  Yes you can.  With nonviolent fantasies?  No you can not.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 09, 2020, 02:13:22 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133297
With simple fantasies?  Yes you can.  With nonviolent fantasies?  No you can not.

Ok fair enough, the world has seen some simple fantasies of partition and "cleansing" turn into reality, so yes, you're right. It can be done, but again you are right, not without violence. Arguably they don't end up being simple at all because of that, and they don't really end up being solutions. At least, not "final solutions."
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2020, 02:18:36 PM
There is also the problem that once an ideological army is formed, the last thing the leader of such a force wants to do it break it up, so new enemies are usually quickly found and fighting with them started up.   Smart people who read any history, if there were any in leadership positions in the USA, would see that, and understand, amicable divorce and paying people off to move to their ideologically favored spot is best.  Not simple of course, but the simple answer is a really ugly answer.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 09, 2020, 05:23:56 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133294
cities are WAY too fragile to exist on their own.  

I question this. It sounds like rural survivalist fantasizing. It's true that cities cannot exist in their own, but nor need they rely on their own rural hinterland. Especially port cities, which for centuries have drawn on distant cities and distant rural hinterlands for support. port cities rely on networks and far-flung connections. Yes, they draw on their rural neighbours, and that's not a nothing, but are they really more fragile? You could make the contrary case, that the rural hinterland, especially with modern agriculture, is way too fragile to exist without the cities. Either the cities are a willing market or they channel produce to other markets. Eliminate the "modern agriculture" and sure, some rural areas could survive without the cities... on a subsistence level with much reduced population, but is that what they would aspire to? The truth is that both the cities and the rural hinterlands require each other. Take either one away and both become more fragile.

 
Quote from: oggsmash;1133294
I suspect where the military at large sides will determine the outcome.  Given the voting habits of the military and especially combat troops, it is already decided how that goes.
I wonder about this as well. I can believe that the officer class and the careerists lean one way, but they are still divided. And I expect the enlisted even more so. I have a feeling that the military would be a whole lot more divided and a whole lot messier than you appear to hope.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2020, 06:21:58 PM
I do not hope anything.  I already know how most lean. The pentagon is certainly left.  The people who actually shoot and fight are mostly libertarian, some Right and a few left.  The people cooking and counting bullets tend to be half and half.  about 66 percent voted trump overall.  I have no hopes in any of it.  I have two fairly young kids and a wife.  Any serious strife and I am a dead man lugging them around trying to keep them alive.  Cities today are not fragile because of infrastructure alone.  They are fragile because they have a large number of useless eaters inside of them.   There is no fantasy in anything I say, just so far as I can see, a whole bunch of truths.  The power grid in the USA is extremely fragile.  Supply chains are extremely fragile.   Crops grow if soil is tilled by hand still.  Its rough growing enough food for a city to be fed.  And when you start telling people who eat for free that time is over, well the unrest isnt exactly great for the city as well.  Largely cities will be abandoned by people with money and means first thing, just like they fled New York for covid, they are not hanging around to lock arms with other people in the city and weather a storm.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2020, 06:25:25 PM
The military will be messy.  Extremely so.  So it comes down to practicalities.  New York is not practical.  Chicago is not practical.  Most urban areas with much over 500k people are not practical.  In even a subdivision in lots of places people can manage to subsist.  That is not happening in a major city.  Ports are great, if you have something to trade.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2020, 06:29:27 PM
Lots of small towns existed in the country that were largely self sufficient were around in the recent past.  Corporate hollowing out of small towns and so forth removed that, but I think need and demand can build anything back.  The real problem starts when an outside power decides to lend aid to one or both sides.  That I think would cause a nuclear detonation (because the reality is both sides of a real conflict in the USA will have access to nukes, and....hopefully the understanding detonation on US soil is a loser for all parties) or several in other nations. Then the USA gets hit back, and we get so see what a global nuclear war looks like after the fact.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: RandyB on June 09, 2020, 09:54:07 PM
The Nine Nations of North America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America)

American Nations (http://www.colinwoodard.com/americannations.html)

Two models of the multiple, different nations on the North American continent. One identifies nine, the other identifies eleven.

Getting to either from here? No easy path.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 10, 2020, 12:09:59 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133294
As for standing up to China or Russia, who gives a shit?


The trading partners that the USA so likes to have? While the USA has a massive military, split into 25 or so chunks it's not so impressive anymore.

This whole thing just sounds like fantasizing.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: tenbones on June 10, 2020, 12:13:36 AM
All I can say is...

I'm kicking my feet up here in TX, watching all these communist hellholes burn their shit to the ground. Had some consultations with my neighbors, we're all in general agreement to watch each others backs. Picked up some new arms, planning on getting at least three more and currently building a nice AR by hand. Ammo levels are not quite where I want, working that. Going through a few permit-situations here for "unfortunate circumstances"... pretty easy peasy in the Lone Star.

All in all... I'm not too worried about anything even if it all goes to shit. Most of the crazies in TX are down in Austin and Houston... but Dallas has their share. It will be very unfortunate for those elements to decide to get too crazy outside of their spheres of influence.

I'll go with Texas in any configuration. Not that I think that'll happen. But you never know, hence the firearms. i.e. TL/DR it'll never happen peacefully.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shasarak on June 10, 2020, 03:16:45 AM
I dont know why you guys what to break up the USA.  Just give some of those blue states a while with no Police and they will be begging for some good people to come in and show them how things are done.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 08:41:33 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1133383
I dont know why you guys what to break up the USA.  Just give some of those blue states a while with no Police and they will be begging for some good people to come in and show them how things are done.

   That will not work.  Leftist for all the hate of colonialism they seem to have sure pack up and move to red areas as soon as their Blue state ways begin to fail.  Oddly, a whole bunch of them still vote blue after moving.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 08:42:41 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133366
The trading partners that the USA so likes to have? While the USA has a massive military, split into 25 or so chunks it's not so impressive anymore.

This whole thing just sounds like fantasizing.

  Trading partners?  You mean how multinational corporations do all they can to get access to US consumers?  I think it has come time to end that.  If by fantasize you mean predict Chaotic breakdown.  Sure.   Rome did fall.  The USSR did fall.  Those are historical events that happened.  There is no fantasy to the USA splitting/falling, that is pretty much a historical pattern for humans.   Maybe I am not communicating as well as I could.  Outside invaders are not and have never been the problem with the security of the USA being a unified nation.   I also do not think I have delusion nor have communicated any regarding the end of the whole thing.  Do I think a side wins/can win? Yes.  King Pyrrhus won too.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DELETE THIS on June 10, 2020, 09:12:40 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133394
That will not work.  Leftist for all the hate of colonialism they seem to have sure pack up and move to red areas as soon as their Blue state ways begin to fail.  Oddly, a whole bunch of them still vote blue after moving.

Oddly..? They ALL vote the same exact way after moving. Talk to any Californian and you get the same basic script:

"This place sucks, it's nothing like California"
"Why'd you move to Texas then?"
"I couldn't find a job there and taxes are too high, can't afford a house"
"Texas has none of those problems so why does it suck?"
"THERE'S NO CULTURE!"

When you point out they could always take a trip to Austria or something to see "culture" (because what they REALLY mean is WHITE Western European bullshit from the 1700s) they act like that's the dumbest thing possible.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Chris24601 on June 10, 2020, 09:45:29 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1133383
I dont know why you guys what to break up the USA.  Just give some of those blue states a while with no Police and they will be begging for some good people to come in and show them how things are done.
To paraphrase an idea someone had; split the USA 50/50... the Left gets 25 states, the Right gets 25 states. The Left even gets to pick which states it wants. Then everyone gets a year to move before the fences go up.

Inside of five years people in the Leftist states will be trying to crawl over the walls to escape because when they look into the Right areas they'll say "LOOK! They have FOOD! I remember food."
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 10, 2020, 10:22:24 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133395
Trading partners?  You mean how multinational corporations do all they can to get access to US consumers?

OK this is getting dumb. Being anti-globalist is one thing, not understanding that America imports shit is another. A balkanized USA would be MORE dependant on foreign trade not less.
In addition China already wraps its inky tentacles into the USAs power base. You think that will stop or will be weakened by Balkanization?

Im not against some logical debating, but this is a power fantasy or something. Not a logical discussion of the outcomes.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 10, 2020, 11:18:30 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133403
OK this is getting dumb.


I agree. Dumb and strangely revealing. Here we have supposedly conservative voices blithely spouting plans for huge involuntary population displacements. Treating people as pawns. It's like the mask of conservative "freedom" is stripped away to reveal the Soviet central planner beneath.

This can't just be about abstract political forces and abject populations, any of these schemes would have to confront real people. Human beings, guys, not demographic blocs. People who won't or can't just dutifully pull up stakes, leave homes, farms, jobs, family and plod across the lines the Great Leaders have drawn on a map just because they are too red or too blue.

holy moley, power fantasy indeed.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: KingCheops on June 10, 2020, 11:45:26 AM
I like the idea of no longer being hitched to Ottawa but I'm not sure whether I'd want to be in Ecotopia or The Left Coast.  I like my Greater Cascadia better.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 12:17:41 PM
A power fantasy?  I have stated pretty completely, it will be a complete chaotic meltdown.  No one will be concerned with China,  As a landmass and nation the USA could be 100 percent independent of the entire world and import next to nothing.  However, cheap slave labor makes that less profitable for multinationals.

   I have no desire to displace anyone, but the choices are going to eventually come down to move to be around people who are not willing to kill you, or die or kill, or capitulate to something that is in your mind horrific.   I am missing the power fantasy in seeing complete meltdown.  I think the rest of the wold will tread lightly, because wrapping a place with your influence is one thing if you know all you get is an orange guy ranting at it.  It is different if some whacko is willing to toss a hotcake your way.   I have no idea what actual foreign influence would be.  I know here it will be a disaster.  Because we will not separate peacefully.  Rome fell.  Empires fall.   No idea what happens 10 years after a fall, but I have a pretty good idea how the first year goes.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 10, 2020, 12:24:17 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133410
It's like the mask of conservative "freedom" is stripped away to reveal the Soviet central planner beneath.


#notallconservatives.
Even with social justice warriors, I know many of them really do believe in the betterment of people just in a twisted way.

This is sort of like the 'Post Apocalyptic' power fantasy:

'Im bitter against society I want it to burn away so I can be hero scavenger guy'
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 12:34:42 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133410
I agree. Dumb and strangely revealing. Here we have supposedly conservative voices blithely spouting plans for huge involuntary population displacements. Treating people as pawns. It's like the mask of conservative "freedom" is stripped away to reveal the Soviet central planner beneath.

This can't just be about abstract political forces and abject populations, any of these schemes would have to confront real people. Human beings, guys, not demographic blocs. People who won't or can't just dutifully pull up stakes, leave homes, farms, jobs, family and plod across the lines the Great Leaders have drawn on a map just because they are too red or too blue.

holy moley, power fantasy indeed.
https://www.therpgsite.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1133410

   How exactly is let's go our own ways central planning?  I would also add, I am not conservative.  I have no idea what liberal or conservative mean anymore.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: insubordinate polyhedral on June 10, 2020, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133423
This is sort of like the 'Post Apocalyptic' power fantasy:

'Im bitter against society I want it to burn away so I can be hero scavenger guy'

Yup. This is part of why I tend not to enjoy zombie content (and is what pushed me out of Christianity during the Left Behind craze). Everyone thinks they're gonna be Shaun and can't wait for the apocalypse to show how much of a badass they are. In all likelihood, though, you're gonna be David, or Ed if you're super lucky and have a friend who gives all of the fucks about you. If you wanna be a hero, go do some work where you are to make things better and appreciate how lucky you are thanks to the sacrifices of those who came before you. But that's a hard path and a longer path to glory, so instead, self-righteously trash the system, down with the man, etc. and think one's self a righteous warrior all the while.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1133426
Yup. This is part of why I tend not to enjoy zombie content (and is what pushed me out of Christianity during the Left Behind craze). Everyone thinks they're gonna be Shaun and can't wait for the apocalypse to show how much of a badass they are. In all likelihood, though, you're gonna be David, or Ed if you're super lucky and have a friend who gives all of the fucks about you. If you wanna be a hero, go do some work where you are to make things better and appreciate how lucky you are thanks to the sacrifices of those who came before you. But that's a hard path and a longer path to glory, so instead, self-righteously trash the system, down with the man, etc. and think one's self a righteous warrior all the while.

  Anyone who thinks that, and is not already good at fighting right now, bare minimum is having a fantasy.... and by good at fighting I mean good with the fist, in good shape, armed and trained and have 10 or similarly minded people with equal qualification.  I am pretty sure I have stated, I am naught but a bystander in all this.  Anyone married with kids, etc is not fighting for any cause.  You will fight for your kids to eat, or you will bend the knee to whoever wins in the area you live.  Or die.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 10, 2020, 12:48:02 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133423
#notallconservatives.
Even with social justice warriors, I know many of them really do believe in the betterment of people just in a twisted way.

This is sort of like the 'Post Apocalyptic' power fantasy:

'Im bitter against society I want it to burn away so I can be hero scavenger guy'

totally agree, it certainly reminds me of the gloating post-apocalyptic sci-fi  fantasies of the 1970s. And yes I can tell you don't buy into the millenarian fantasy, so I'll accept that #notallconservatives.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 10, 2020, 12:54:09 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133432
totally agree, it certainly reminds me of the gloating post-apocalyptic sci-fi  fantasies of the 1970s. And yes I can tell you don't buy into the millenarian fantasy, so I'll accept that #notallconservatives.
I do think Post Apocalyptic fantasy can be a great examination of current society. Like if we vanished today what would aliens see in a hundred years? Type deals.
But I do get the anger sometimes. I think we all can get somewhat angry and want a desire to lash out at something. Its how we handle it determines the kind of people we are.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 10, 2020, 12:56:52 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133425
https://www.therpgsite.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1133410

   How exactly is let's go our own ways central planning?  
.

We're talking about kicking whole states to the kerb. Or alternatively "we" (what "we" exactly? which Central Committee?) will divvy up the states 25-25, half red and half blue and you've got a year to like it or if the colour doesn't suit you (or your colour doesn't suit us), then get the hell out before the walls come up. The walls! Good God, Khruschev lives!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 01:01:23 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133435
.

We're talking about kicking whole states to the kerb. Or alternatively "we" (what "we" exactly? which Central Committee?) will divvy up the states 25-25, half red and half blue and you've got a year to like it or get the hell out then the walls come up. The walls! Good God, Khruschev lives!

  "We" are not all talking about the same thing apparently.  As to central planning, no,but there is a shift of conservatives definitely having more collective thought.  I do not think it will be some central plan, it will be ragged survivors tired of fighting making an agreement.  At that point I feel most people will go where they want to be.  Or just settle into whatever the area they are in, since it is all nothing more than spit balling, you seem to be taking it a tad seriously.  Conservatives will be forced toward more collectivist action and positions though, and I am not in favor of a collectivist, hardened right wing movement.  But the extremes tend to pull the centers in their direction.  This happens now.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on June 10, 2020, 01:02:32 PM
Things that can't go on, won't.  A peaceful compromise requires both sides to see reason.  Not seeing that happening.  An eventual peaceful outcome after a lot of violence requires one side to be beaten badly enough that they quit fighting.  I could see that happening, maybe.  At this point, about the best likely outcome we can hope for is that several of the rabid leftists organizations turn on each other.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 01:05:36 PM
Also, lets talk about the word fantasy for a second,  fucking Donald Trump is POTUS.  Anyone who said that will be a thing 8 years ago would have been laughed at to no end.  In the nutty shit going on in the USA, where a bunch of stinky dreadlocked white kids can take over a major city's police precinct, 7 blocks, and town hall, I am not so sure what is or is not fantasy.   Same world where a flu stopped the world dead in its tracks.  Maybe fantasy is the wrong word.  Improbability might be better suited.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 10, 2020, 02:17:36 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133442
Also, lets talk about the word fantasy for a second,  fucking Donald Trump is POTUS.  Anyone who said that will be a thing 8 years ago would have been laughed at to no end.

The accusation of the word 'Fantasy' isn't that it's unrealistic (at least to me), its the glee I see it supported while ignoring or downplaying all the disastrous consequences not just to their enemies but to themselves.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 02:28:56 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133456
The accusation of the word 'Fantasy' isn't that it's unrealistic (at least to me), its the glee I see it supported while ignoring or downplaying all the disastrous consequences not just to their enemies but to themselves.

   I guess a few people have a whiff of glee about people "getting what is coming to them"..  I can not say I feel any glee about any of it.  You respond to me alot, so I have to ask, am I giving any such impression?  Because this being the medium it is, tone doesnt come through terribly well, and I guess I could seem gleeful in forecasting my inevitable horrible death.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 10, 2020, 04:18:38 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133460
I guess a few people have a whiff of glee about people "getting what is coming to them"..  I can not say I feel any glee about any of it.  You respond to me alot, so I have to ask, am I giving any such impression?  Because this being the medium it is, tone doesnt come through terribly well, and I guess I could seem gleeful in forecasting my inevitable horrible death.

I think a few do. And perhaps you aren't one of them. But why don't we go back to the OP? it was not about what might be inevitable, good or bad, but what was desirable. The OP wishlist was

1) partition; but
2) No civil war/ "boogaloo."

 the question was, any ideas how this is possible. The consensus so far seems to be that it isnt.

So what next? If you can't have both the goodies on your wishlist, the next question is, which one do you really want?

1) partition (accepting that it will be civil war/ boogaloo); or
2) a no-civil war no-boogaloo solution (accepting that it means no partition)

Or alternatively, if you still think a no civil war partition option is possible, then that's what the op wants to hear
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 04:37:45 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133474
I think a few do. And perhaps you aren't one of them. But why don't we go back to the OP? it was not about what might be inevitable, good or bad, but what was desirable. The OP wishlist was

1) partition; but
2) No civil war/ "boogaloo."

 the question was, any ideas how this is possible. The consensus so far seems to be that it isnt.

So what next? If you can't have both the goodies on your wishlist, the next question is, which one do you really want?

1) partition (accepting that it will be civil war/ boogaloo); or
2) a no-civil war no-boogaloo solution (accepting that it means no partition)

Or alternatively, if you still think a no civil war partition option is possible, then that's what the op wants to hear

     Explain what no partition means.   Because that solution to two sides that can not live together looks alot like just leave it as it is.  Which is sort of not an answer.  Expound on the solutions in a no partition, no war scenario and I can answer.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 10, 2020, 04:46:37 PM
A lot of posters here complain about the fear-mongering from mainstream media -- and while I tend to agree with that, I'm often surprised at how much fear-mongering there is here. While I don't discount that the U.S. could break up, I don't see that as the trend. People gets amped up because of social media, but in concrete terms, I think we've had less political violence than in prior eras -- and it seems to me that political violence is a key signal to secession or civil war.

For example, I'm not exactly sure about the body count in the recent race riots -- but in the 1992 Rodney King riots, 63 people were killed and 2383 people were injured. While the George Floyd demonstrations were more widespread geographically, my impression is that they had a lower body count (or at least not significantly higher).

People talk more stridently on social media about anti-Republican or anti-Democrat, but they don't go out and shoot people as much. In any case, civil war is bad for business, so the mainstream Democratic and Republican parties would be against it.

There has been increasing partisanship over the past 3 decades, but geographically, the populations are pretty thoroughly intertwined - and their economies and populations are as well. Liberal states still have conservative areas (i.e. central California) while conservative states still have liberal areas (i.e. Austin). Among other things, the liberal exodus would get around 15% more women - which would be a problem for the conservative half.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 04:59:35 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1133478
A lot of posters here complain about the fear-mongering from mainstream media -- and while I tend to agree with that, I'm often surprised at how much fear-mongering there is here. While I don't discount that the U.S. could break up, I don't see that as the trend. People gets amped up because of social media, but in concrete terms, I think we've had less political violence than in prior eras -- and it seems to me that political violence is a key signal to secession or civil war.

For example, I'm not exactly sure about the body count in the recent race riots -- but in the 1992 Rodney King riots, 63 people were killed and 2383 people were injured. While the George Floyd demonstrations were more widespread geographically, my impression is that they had a lower body count (or at least not significantly higher).

People talk more stridently on social media about anti-Republican or anti-Democrat, but they don't go out and shoot people as much. In any case, civil war is bad for business, so the mainstream Democratic and Republican parties would be against it.

There has been increasing partisanship over the past 3 decades, but geographically, the populations are pretty thoroughly intertwined - and their economies and populations are as well. Liberal states still have conservative areas (i.e. central California) while conservative states still have liberal areas (i.e. Austin). Among other things, the liberal exodus would get around 15% more women - which would be a problem for the conservative half.

    18 people died in Chicago in 24 hours,and 85 shot and wounded last weekend.   I think body count is less a signal than large cities deciding law and order do not mean a thing, and rule of law only matters when it is something you want to enforce.  That is a bigger signal than violence.  As for a liberal exodus getting 15 percent more women, so be it.  Texas can probably trace a whole bunch of that liberal strong hold presence to california.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: ffilz on June 10, 2020, 07:32:02 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133479
18 people died in Chicago in 24 hours,and 85 shot and wounded last weekend.   I think body count is less a signal than large cities deciding law and order do not mean a thing, and rule of law only matters when it is something you want to enforce.  That is a bigger signal than violence.  As for a liberal exodus getting 15 percent more women, so be it.  Texas can probably trace a whole bunch of that liberal strong hold presence to california.

Are all of those shootings actually tied to the protest/riots? I know here in Portland OR, we have had at least one police shooting during this time that seemed to have nothing to do with the protests/riots.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2020, 07:55:08 PM
Quote from: ffilz;1133499
Are all of those shootings actually tied to the protest/riots? I know here in Portland OR, we have had at least one police shooting during this time that seemed to have nothing to do with the protests/riots.

    How many of the over 100 shootings in a day do we need to have tied directly to the peaceful protests?  I have no idea, the mayor and alderman seemed to feel the protests had an effect, but who knows?  18 dead and 85 shot is impressive even for chiraq.  Since my point was there seems to be a complete breakdown of law and order....I also fail to see how it matters.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 10, 2020, 08:20:02 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133503
How many of the over 100 shootings in a day do we need to have tied directly to the peaceful protests?  I have no idea, the mayor and alderman seemed to feel the protests had an effect, but who knows?  18 dead and 85 shot is impressive even for chiraq.  Since my point was there seems to be a complete breakdown of law and order....I also fail to see how it matters.
It's a question of what level of violence indicates a lead in to actual civil war. Again, the Rodney King riots had 63 people killed and 2383 people injured -- which is considerably larger than 18 and 85. The Rodney King riots were also quite reasonably described as a breakdown of law and order.

Those are small compared to actual civil wars, though. My father was in the Korean War - where millions upon millions died. Heck, the province of Chihuahua has about one-third the population of Chicago, and it averaged over 17 murders every day last year.

The question is the *trend* of violence and disorder. It's horrible that these murders have happened, but the overall trend has been decreased violent crime since the 1990s.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 10, 2020, 08:49:10 PM
I'll just leave this here.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/1/gun-sales-surge-80-may-research-firm/

I never imagined a bunch of nitwit commies would stake out a section of Capitol Hill and oust the police (https://mynorthwest.com/1934076/seattle-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/), so I'm not going to scoff at people who think a Boogaloo is on the horizon. Hell, considering how things have gone, when (not if) Trump is re-elected, I'm expecting some serious escalation.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on June 10, 2020, 10:40:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1133478
A lot of posters here complain about the fear-mongering from mainstream media -- and while I tend to agree with that, I'm often surprised at how much fear-mongering there is here. While I don't discount that the U.S. could break up, I don't see that as the trend. People gets amped up because of social media, but in concrete terms, I think we've had less political violence than in prior eras -- and it seems to me that political violence is a key signal to secession or civil war.

For example, I'm not exactly sure about the body count in the recent race riots -- but in the 1992 Rodney King riots, 63 people were killed and 2383 people were injured. While the George Floyd demonstrations were more widespread geographically, my impression is that they had a lower body count (or at least not significantly higher)...


It's not so much degree and scope of the actions (so far) as the attitudes about them, that makes me see this going nowhere good.  I'm not a historian, but I have read deeply in a lot of history.  This period reminds me on the surface of the 1968 riots, but underlying it all the attitudes remind me more of the Fillmore, Pierce, and Buchanan administrations.  Not as a direct analogy, of course, since the powerful leaders and organizations with influence are considerably different.  Rather, it is a sense of irreconcilable differences coming to no good end.  It's not as if the people of that day didn't know that issue of slavery was causing an increasing divide.  A lot of smart and sometimes even wise people worked really hard in an attempt to head off what they saw coming.

Another similarity is that I think we've got a lot of people playing with fire that don't truly appreciate how bad this could get, quick.  Like oggsmash, I don't see it ending well for me and mine, either.  I'm not really physically equipped to survive in a barbaric situation.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Alathon on June 10, 2020, 11:16:43 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1133524
Another similarity is that I think we've got a lot of people playing with fire that don't truly appreciate how bad this could get, quick.  Like oggsmash, I don't see it ending well for me and mine, either.  I'm not really physically equipped to survive in a barbaric situation.

There are more than a few men in the United States who perceive that they have no prospects worth pursuing, or who tried and had the rug pulled out from under them after years of good faith effort.  To have vengeance on those who have maligned them, and also have the possibility of light at the end of the tunnel, whether it's victory or dying for something worth fighting for?  It gives them hope.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 10, 2020, 11:23:30 PM
Quote from: Alathon;1133529
It gives them hope.
That same rational also powers SJWs. You can argue about who is 'right' to take it, but vengance indeed does cloud the mind into self destructive paths.

The Emperor of Russia was indeed a bastard, and all the rightous vengance against him and his family brought the truly wronged peasants nothing in the end but an even worse master.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Alathon on June 10, 2020, 11:27:03 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133534
That same rational also powers SJWs. You can argue about who is 'right' to take it, but vengance indeed does cloud the mind into self destructive paths.

The Emperor of Russia was indeed a bastard, and all the rightous vengance against him and his family brought the truly wronged peasants nothing in the end but an even worse master.

Yup.  Winning with violence traditionally gets bad results.  After Robespierre comes Napoleon, after Lenin comes Stalin.  After all... if the method of violent conquest is successful, it becomes normalized and whoever is best at it (conquerors and psychopaths) is likely to take the scepter from the corpse of whatever silly ideologue thought she deserved it for leading the revolution.

Edit:  But, the SJW cannot claim the same motivation.  They have lots of feelings, and they seem really important because they're dumb animals who don't have much else, but they cannot claim to have ever been denied opportunity the way working class whites have.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on June 11, 2020, 12:10:56 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1133511
I'll just leave this here.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/1/gun-sales-surge-80-may-research-firm/

I never imagined a bunch of nitwit commies would stake out a section of Capitol Hill and oust the police (https://mynorthwest.com/1934076/seattle-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/), so I'm not going to scoff at people who think a Boogaloo is on the horizon. Hell, considering how things have gone, when (not if) Trump is re-elected, I'm expecting some serious escalation.

I am following this story with a great deal of amusement.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 11, 2020, 12:20:49 AM
Quote from: Alathon;1133536
But, the SJW cannot claim the same motivation.

Another SJW type argument. 'X Group of People can't claim to TRULY have been wronged as Y' group of people.
Im not desiring one angry entitled mob be replaced with another type entitled angry mob.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Alathon on June 11, 2020, 01:43:26 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133541
Another SJW type argument. 'X Group of People can't claim to TRULY have been wronged as Y' group of people.
Im not desiring one angry entitled mob be replaced with another type entitled angry mob.

Your desires will not be taken into account, nor should you expect them to be.

SJW populations are drawn heavily from the privileged children of the upper-middle class, and pampered minorities, whereas those whom they attack most, working class white males, have spent the last fifty years being systematically beggared by those SJWs parents as they transferred wealth out of middle America and to themselves and other nations.  The young men talking about 'boogaloo' and all that have legitimate grievances.  The SJWs generally do not.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 11, 2020, 02:16:47 AM
Quote from: Alathon;1133548
Your desires will not be taken into account, nor should you expect them to be.

Oddly defensive. Whatever, I made my statements clear, I find your argumentation bitter and mixed in with psuedo-inteligencia. Again the same sort of stuff I would expect of SJWs. Which to be clear Im comparing you to SJWs because it might make you re-examine your thought process, not because I think this type of thought is inherently SJW-ish.

SJWs argue on behalf of and for disenfranchised individuals as well. To me It doesn't matter how sucky your history is. Being a shithead in the present and using loops and layers of double standards is weak regardless of who spouts it.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Alathon on June 11, 2020, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133552
Oddly defensive. Whatever, I made my statements clear, I find your argumentation bitter and mixed in with psuedo-inteligencia. Again the same sort of stuff I would expect of SJWs. Which to be clear Im comparing you to SJWs because it might make you re-examine your thought process, not because I think this type of thought is inherently SJW-ish.

SJWs argue on behalf of and for disenfranchised individuals as well. To me It doesn't matter how sucky your history is. Being a shithead in the present and using loops and layers of double standards is weak regardless of who spouts it.
How real a motivation is matters because it determines, in part, how much a person or group will persist when they face resistance and tribulation.  Privileged SJWs are generally soft creatures who lived lives with minimal hardship.  The opposite is true of Redneck Boogaloo Brigade.  A consequence of this difference is that SJWs fold rapidly in physical conflict (see: every fight where they don't have overwhelming numbers), but if the RBB starts fighting, they might (not will, but might) decide to keep fighting through real opposition.  Another consequence is that the RBB has been prepping and talking themselves up to something for years, whereas the SJWs tend to be reactive  --  they panic buy.  Would these be decisive differences?  Only time can tell, but these real differences in experience and habit do not constitute a "double standard".
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 11, 2020, 12:05:15 PM
Quote from: Alathon;1133606
How real a motivation is matters because it determines, in part, how much a person or group will persist when they face resistance and tribulation.
Thank goodness that determining the purity of motivation is easily calculable using the motivometer. Whatever I see that your larping at this point.
As much as I loath Social Justice, on a intelectual and personal level, Im not gonna be a edgy enough boi to call them 'Creatures'. Its a sticking point for your ego, at which point you pretty much disprove your own point.

I see no further way this conversation will really progress once personal ego gets involved.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 11, 2020, 12:55:11 PM
Greetings!

Well, America certainly has been divided. This division has been fostered and promoted continuously by the Communists within our midst. The Communists have been working for 50 years to bring America down. They started by overtaking our universities, then our grade schools, then the Movie Industry, Music, and the Media. Meanwhile, their brainwashed, cock-sucking fellow travelers and rebels also sowed division by embracing feminism, abortion, divorce, and attacking the Institutions of Marriage, the Family, and the Church. Then they have pushed and wormed their way into politics, the military, and now the police. The military and Law Enforcement are the last bastions of an older, traditional America.

Too many Americans have slept, have coddled and accepted the fucking Communists, the Liberals, the SJW's, the Race-baiting demagogues and rebels. Step by step, every institution of society has been corrupted, subverted, and transformed into weak, gooey, fucked up Communist ideology. So, this is what you get. Division, oppression, rebellion, and chaos. Then will come the globalist, Communist tyranny. The rebels will overthrow our society, and continue to oppress, and "cleanse" it of everything they deem "offensive."

This is how tyranny takes over.

Because in the past, too many people didn't want to argue, they didn't want to fight, they didn't want to offend anyone. They didn't want to do the hard work of standing strong, and keeping our society and our culture safe and free from the Communist scum.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 11, 2020, 01:00:14 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1133507
It's a question of what level of violence indicates a lead in to actual civil war. Again, the Rodney King riots had 63 people killed and 2383 people injured -- which is considerably larger than 18 and 85. The Rodney King riots were also quite reasonably described as a breakdown of law and order.

Those are small compared to actual civil wars, though. My father was in the Korean War - where millions upon millions died. Heck, the province of Chihuahua has about one-third the population of Chicago, and it averaged over 17 murders every day last year.

The question is the *trend* of violence and disorder. It's horrible that these murders have happened, but the overall trend has been decreased violent crime since the 1990s.


  So one of the worst ground zero for cartel drug wars has more murders than Chicago, and Chicago has a considerably higher murder rate than Rio.  Moot point.  You are talking about an entire LA riot versus 24 hours as a stat as well.  I also only mentioned gunshot deaths and injury only.  I am certain more people were hurt other than those just shot.   This is widespread and frigging Seattle has surrendered to shitbirds.    Warnings to civil war based on death alone is also foolish, because the point of a war is not to kill, it is to control and remove resistance and opposition.   Seems there is a radical side that is getting that without having to do alot of bleeding or killing.   I also noticed you did not address how the 90's rates of violence were curbed by that racist crime bill.    I am sure you will be treated well in a few years so long as you bend the knee appropriately.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 11, 2020, 01:10:52 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133477
Explain what no partition means.   Because that solution to two sides that can not live together looks alot like just leave it as it is.  Which is sort of not an answer.  Expound on the solutions in a no partition, no war scenario and I can answer.


No partition (+no boogaloo) is there because it is a logically necessary alternative if we are all correct that you can't have both partition and no boogaloo.

What that alternative specifically looks like is tbd, although yes I expect one option under that alternative is "leave things as they are."
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 11, 2020, 01:18:59 PM
As to which side is righteous, the fact is I dont care.  I care about what is best for my family.  One side of the argument is putting obstacles up to the future for my kids, as many as they can, because of their skin pigment.   How much of that, exactly should I tolerate?  How much more does my kid need to outperform another to get a spot at an academic institution?   How much above the outstanding will my son have to be on paper to get a foot in a door?   Sorry you keep pushing that sort of shit and you will get what you deserve.  Right now, it seems the mayor and the Chief of police in Seattle are getting fed a dose of shit from people they thought they were catering too.  Where does that end?  Does anyone think people who do shit like that are ever appeased?   Past revolutions were no where near as good at shaming or putting people in fear of losing their livelihood as these shitbags.   That is why there is far less violence.   Violence is not and has never been the point of an insurrection, civil war, or rebellion.  The point is winning control, and the more winning you can do without killing and fighting the better.   If you do not see Seattle as a massive problem, whoever you are, then we will never see eye to eye as to what happens now.  If there is a popping off point I hope everyone is as safe as they can be.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 11, 2020, 01:23:27 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133620
No partition (+no boogaloo) is there because it is a logically necessary alternative if we are all correct that you can't have both partition and no boogaloo.

What that alternative specifically looks like is tbd, although yes I expect one option under that alternative is "leave things as they are."

  I think leave things as they are is going to circle back to breakin 2.   I need an option to give my thoughts on.  Toss me one.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 11, 2020, 01:25:24 PM
Greetings!

Well, people better wake the fuck up, and get serious about cleaning house, unity, and law and order. More and more people are seeing signs of coming war, of rebellion, and chaos. More and more people don't see this ending peacefully. The Liberals and Communists are more violent, and opposed to our culture, our religion, and our ancient Republican ways. So, since they can't shut the fuck up and accept that a whole lot of us don't agree with them, then a point will come when people are tired of oppression, and shaming, and cock-sucking Communist rebellion and cultural tyranny, and the erosion of rights, our Constitution, and Law and Order. Then blood will pour. Then we will see true blood and death in this country. Lots of it, and there won't be anywhere to hide, and no way to escape.

People are arming up like crazy, and getting ready.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Alathon on June 11, 2020, 02:00:21 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1133204
The USA is divided beyond hope of healing and we have no common ground with our enemies.
The Left has their vision of future and the Right will not submit.
I do not want Boogaloo.
I do not want civil war.
But its clearly high time for the USA to balkanize.
I don't know how that happens peacefully.

Any ideas?

Geographically, here's a good representation what American politics look like:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/2016_Nationwide_US_presidential_county_map_shaded_by_vote_share.svg/1280px-2016_Nationwide_US_presidential_county_map_shaded_by_vote_share.svg.png)

The Right might choose to accept partition, but the left-commies cannot accept it on both ideological and pragmatic grounds.  They have to win or their shitties full of parasitic populations cannot be sustained.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 11, 2020, 02:01:02 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133623
I think leave things as they are is going to circle back to breakin 2.   I need an option to give my thoughts on.  Toss me one.

Yes, it's true, if the op can't have both the items on his wishlist, then one of the wishes must be set aside. The question is, which one.

So I think it's obvious why no boogaloo would be on the wishlist. But maybe the partition needs explaining. To figure out no-partition options, I need to know what you'd hope to achieve with partition? Is it that things would be better if people were segregated by voting preference so all the red people are over here and all the blue people are over there? Or is it more complicated than that?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 11, 2020, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133629
Yes, it's true, if the op can't have both the items on his wishlist, then one of the wishes must be set aside. The question is, which one.

So I think it's obvious why no boogaloo would be on the wishlist. But maybe the partition needs explaining. To figure out no-partition options, I need to know what you'd hope to achieve with partition? Is it that things would be better if people were segregated by voting preference so all the red people are over here and all the blue people are over there? Or is it more complicated than that?

          I thought this was no partition question though?  Partition was simple, red on way, blue the other.  Trade, travel visa, immigration each side can establish as they choose.  No moving from one to the other for a good long while though.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: RandyB on June 11, 2020, 02:20:20 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1133616
Greetings!

Well, America certainly has been divided. This division has been fostered and promoted continuously by the Communists within our midst. The Communists have been working for 50 years to bring America down. They started by overtaking our universities, then our grade schools, then the Movie Industry, Music, and the Media. Meanwhile, their brainwashed, cock-sucking fellow travelers and rebels also sowed division by embracing feminism, abortion, divorce, and attacking the Institutions of Marriage, the Family, and the Church. Then they have pushed and wormed their way into politics, the military, and now the police. The military and Law Enforcement are the last bastions of an older, traditional America.

Too many Americans have slept, have coddled and accepted the fucking Communists, the Liberals, the SJW's, the Race-baiting demagogues and rebels. Step by step, every institution of society has been corrupted, subverted, and transformed into weak, gooey, fucked up Communist ideology. So, this is what you get. Division, oppression, rebellion, and chaos. Then will come the globalist, Communist tyranny. The rebels will overthrow our society, and continue to oppress, and "cleanse" it of everything they deem "offensive."

This is how tyranny takes over.

Because in the past, too many people didn't want to argue, they didn't want to fight, they didn't want to offend anyone. They didn't want to do the hard work of standing strong, and keeping our society and our culture safe and free from the Communist scum.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Communism is a label. It is an accurate label as used over the last century and a half or so. The ideas and ideals long predate the label. Even the French Revolution didn't pioneer all of what that label now covers.

Insofar as the label is sufficient for now, it is those ideas and ideals that are the danger. We shouldn't let the label be a bogeyman - we should know the enemy that the label applies to, so that the enemy doesn't return in another guise.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: tenbones on June 11, 2020, 02:26:52 PM
Sure it's a label but it also stands as an ideal that ideologues are shooting for.

Just like I say I'm down with Free Market Capitalism. We don't have that either. Nor do I personally believe Free Market Capitalism should extend beyond national borders (at least until we have Post-scarcity settling in which is many years away).

But we're seeing those clash of ideologies on the left - slamming headlong with one another on the left, and cumulatively attempting to dismantle the foundations of this country (and I'd extend that to western culture writ-large) as that ideology has intended from its inception. The mere attempt at going there (to Communism) is going to have a commensurate death-toll. And we may be seeing that now.

It's hard to ignore.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 11, 2020, 03:06:06 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133630
I thought this was no partition question though?  Partition was simple, red on way, blue the other.  Trade, travel visa, immigration each side can establish as they choose.  No moving from one to the other for a good long while though.

I will try to get to No-partition options, and feel free to keep nudging me that way, that's cool, I just need to know why partition appeals, what problems it solves and why you think it will solve them. Then maybe I can think of no-partition options that give you some or all of what you want.

So it does sound like the back-and-forth of democracy no longer does the job for you? You want a more uniform sovereign state where everyone belongs to the same party?

And I'm guessing here, not trying to put words in your mouth, but maybe more than voting preferences, you want to live in a state with more common shared cultural values?

EDITED TO ADD: on reflection, I think "one-party state" and "shared cultural values" can both sound loaded and I have no reason to put either loading on your ideas, so sorry for that. Maybe you like one or both or neither, help me out here.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 11, 2020, 03:20:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim
The question is the *trend* of violence and disorder. It's horrible that these murders have happened, but the overall trend has been decreased violent crime since the 1990s.

Quote from: oggsmash;1133617
Warnings to civil war based on death alone is also foolish, because the point of a war is not to kill, it is to control and remove resistance and opposition.   Seems there is a radical side that is getting that without having to do alot of bleeding or killing.   I also noticed you did not address how the 90's rates of violence were curbed by that racist crime bill.    I am sure you will be treated well in a few years so long as you bend the knee appropriately.

Quote from: oggsmash;1133622
Past revolutions were no where near as good at shaming or putting people in fear of losing their livelihood as these shitbags.   That is why there is far less violence.   Violence is not and has never been the point of an insurrection, civil war, or rebellion.  The point is winning control, and the more winning you can do without killing and fighting the better.   If you do not see Seattle as a massive problem, whoever you are, then we will never see eye to eye as to what happens now.  If there is a popping off point I hope everyone is as safe as they can be.

If control is won with no killing and fighting, then it isn't civil war or revolution -- it's political change. It might be political change you don't like, but democracy always has people on the losing side of votes.


Quote from: oggsmash;1133622
As to which side is righteous, the fact is I dont care.  I care about what is best for my family.  One side of the argument is putting obstacles up to the future for my kids, as many as they can, because of their skin pigment.   How much of that, exactly should I tolerate?  How much more does my kid need to outperform another to get a spot at an academic institution?   How much above the outstanding will my son have to be on paper to get a foot in a door?   Sorry you keep pushing that sort of shit and you will get what you deserve.  Right now, it seems the mayor and the Chief of police in Seattle are getting fed a dose of shit from people they thought they were catering too.  Where does that end?  Does anyone think people who do shit like that are ever appeased?

I understand that you feel discriminated against because of the color of your skin. My impression is that you're white, and feel that the pendulum has swung in the other direction, and now white kids are discriminated against. I know that you want what's best for your kid -- but the big question is what is best?

Discrimination based on skin color has happened before in the history of America. If you were to go back in time and talk to a black father in the 1950s -- what would you recommend to him? He rightly thinks that his son is denied opportunity because of his skin pigment. He's torn between some blacks calling for non-violent resistance, and those calling for violent resistance to oppression. What would you suggest to him would be best for his family?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 11, 2020, 03:47:37 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1133646
If control is won with no killing and fighting, then it isn't civil war or revolution -- it's political change. It might be political change you don't like, but democracy always has people on the losing side of votes.

Like Jim Crow laws.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 11, 2020, 04:32:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim
If control is won with no killing and fighting, then it isn't civil war or revolution -- it's political change. It might be political change you don't like, but democracy always has people on the losing side of votes.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1133652
Like Jim Crow laws.
Quite so. Slavery took a civil war to resolve, but Jim Crow laws were eventually changed through political action.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: RandyB on June 11, 2020, 05:00:57 PM
Quote from: tenbones;1133639
Sure it's a label but it also stands as an ideal that ideologues are shooting for.

Just like I say I'm down with Free Market Capitalism. We don't have that either. Nor do I personally believe Free Market Capitalism should extend beyond national borders (at least until we have Post-scarcity settling in which is many years away).

But we're seeing those clash of ideologies on the left - slamming headlong with one another on the left, and cumulatively attempting to dismantle the foundations of this country (and I'd extend that to western culture writ-large) as that ideology has intended from its inception. The mere attempt at going there (to Communism) is going to have a commensurate death-toll. And we may be seeing that now.

It's hard to ignore.

I think we're saying the same thing - the ideas and ideals they are promoting and pursuing are dangerous to the rest of us. "The label vs. the thing being labeled" is a hairsplitting discussion that's not useful here. My warning is that they always try to relabel themselves, especially after suffering a setback, but the danger remains the same.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Chris24601 on June 11, 2020, 06:14:24 PM
Quote from: Alathon;1133628
Geographically, here's a good representation what American politics look like:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/2016_Nationwide_US_presidential_county_map_shaded_by_vote_share.svg/1280px-2016_Nationwide_US_presidential_county_map_shaded_by_vote_share.svg.png)

The Right might choose to accept partition, but the left-commies cannot accept it on both ideological and pragmatic grounds.  They have to win or their shitties full of parasitic populations cannot be sustained.

Another way to look at this map is as one person put it; There are NO Blue States. There are Blue Cities in Red States big enough to overwhelm the vote of the rest of the state.

If a true civil war does occur its not going to be state vs. state, its going to be the rural population vs. the city population and the cities have a lot of disadvantages in that fight. My hunch is the cities would always lose in the long run, but the percentage of the military that sides with the rural vs. the urban will determine whether there's anything left of the country when it finally happens. If most (or even half) goes rural, it'll end fairly quickly as the military can effectively blockade the major arteries into and out of the cities and starve them out in a matter of weeks. If it goes mostly urban though you're looking at years, maybe decades, of Middle East-style police action to put down the rural insurrection and you've got to keep the troops loyal while they're gunning down not foreigner, but their fellow cities, sometimes even friends and neighbors... even if they win, the cities would essentially have to enslave the rural population and slave labor will never be as productive as the free market so the urban centers won't be able to maintain their current standard of living by any stretch... which will just piss off the urbanities who no longer have those luxuries they took for granted and now you've got a whole nother kettle of insurrection.

There is no way a shooting war doesn't turn into an utter horror show... the only question is is it a quick show or a protracted one?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shasarak on June 11, 2020, 06:30:12 PM
I still have confidence in you guys.  Remember what Winston Churchill said:  You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 11, 2020, 08:05:20 PM
Quote from: Chris24601;1133676
Another way to look at this map is as one person put it; There are NO Blue States. There are Blue Cities in Red States big enough to overwhelm the vote of the rest of the state.

Well, that the real divide is rural-urban (with suburban in play) is news to nobody.

If you go by the map, there actually are two "pure" blue states: Massachusetts and Vermont. And two pure red states: West Virginia and Oklahoma. And even that "purity" obscures a bunch of division.

 But you're right, everything else is a mish-mosh.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on June 11, 2020, 08:09:38 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1133646
My impression is that you're white, and feel that the pendulum has swung in the other direction, and now white kids are discriminated against. I know that you want what's best for your kid -- but the big question is what is best?


Moving to where racist ideology isn't going to determine his child's future.

That's why white flight is coming.

Quote from: jhkim;1133646
If you were to go back in time and talk to a black father in the 1950s -- what would you recommend to him?


Moving to where racist ideology isn't going to determine his child's future.

That's why black flight happened.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shasarak on June 11, 2020, 08:21:17 PM
I have just been hearing about the peaceful balkanisation of the USA and let me be one of the first to recognise the new state of Chaz and its ruling Warlord Raz Simone.

I am sure that I can speak for everyone here in NZ when I say that we look forward to many years of fruitful trade and co-operation.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 11, 2020, 10:59:05 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1133646
If control is won with no killing and fighting, then it isn't civil war or revolution -- it's political change. It might be political change you don't like, but democracy always has people on the losing side of votes.



I understand that you feel discriminated against because of the color of your skin. My impression is that you're white, and feel that the pendulum has swung in the other direction, and now white kids are discriminated against. I know that you want what's best for your kid -- but the big question is what is best?

Discrimination based on skin color has happened before in the history of America. If you were to go back in time and talk to a black father in the 1950s -- what would you recommend to him? He rightly thinks that his son is denied opportunity because of his skin pigment. He's torn between some blacks calling for non-violent resistance, and those calling for violent resistance to oppression. What would you suggest to him would be best for his family?


So you're a-okay with racial discrimination if it's against whitey...

And instead of helping stop it you'll just sit and laugh...

I have one question tho... Are you white or white looking? Because if yes and you think that by licking their balls you'll get a pass I have really bad news for you.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 11, 2020, 11:34:47 PM
And this is why, jhkim you should be opposing the far left, because you will not like the result if they win or if they loose, and I really think in the long run they will loose.

Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 12, 2020, 12:00:04 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133644
I will try to get to No-partition options, and feel free to keep nudging me that way, that's cool, I just need to know why partition appeals, what problems it solves and why you think it will solve them. Then maybe I can think of no-partition options that give you some or all of what you want.

So it does sound like the back-and-forth of democracy no longer does the job for you? You want a more uniform sovereign state where everyone belongs to the same party?

And I'm guessing here, not trying to put words in your mouth, but maybe more than voting preferences, you want to live in a state with more common shared cultural values?

EDITED TO ADD: on reflection, I think "one-party state" and "shared cultural values" can both sound loaded and I have no reason to put either loading on your ideas, so sorry for that. Maybe you like one or both or neither, help me out here.


   I have no issue with more than one view, it is actually healthy.  However,  An 80's democrat's policy stances today are borderline fascist according to current democrats.   I most certainly need the parties to not be so split that the "back and forth" ,which will not be back and forth on the national level in 10 or so years, are essentially one side being a bit bombarded.   The extreme ends right now are going to pull so hard they break the middle.  Better to take two middles not so far from the edges and start over.   Multiple sides will form in both separated areas, but their margins will be closer and less friction or insane policies being pushed.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 12, 2020, 12:02:18 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1133646
If control is won with no killing and fighting, then it isn't civil war or revolution -- it's political change. It might be political change you don't like, but democracy always has people on the losing side of votes.



I understand that you feel discriminated against because of the color of your skin. My impression is that you're white, and feel that the pendulum has swung in the other direction, and now white kids are discriminated against. I know that you want what's best for your kid -- but the big question is what is best?

Discrimination based on skin color has happened before in the history of America. If you were to go back in time and talk to a black father in the 1950s -- what would you recommend to him? He rightly thinks that his son is denied opportunity because of his skin pigment. He's torn between some blacks calling for non-violent resistance, and those calling for violent resistance to oppression. What would you suggest to him would be best for his family?

  I would tell the black man to go elsewhere, as fast as he can.  Because apparently in 2020 there is an ongoing war against black people waged by police, a school system that will actively hold him back, a social welfare system that will do all it can to get his out of wedlock birthrate as high as possible, and lastly because racist as fuck lefty white women are going to call the police on him at every oppurtunity.

   Also, I did not say I feel discriminated against.  But my kids, especially my son, will be.  If you say that is not true, given how admissions and HR's work now, you are not even attempting to be honest.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 12, 2020, 12:08:27 AM
Rioting to get what you want is not political change.  Taking a portion of a city is not political change.  If only there was a name for using violence to get your way politically..................

  I would also add....there was alot of past "political change" in Russia, China, and Germany where there was no civil war, no real amount of killing BEFORE the "change",  but oh, did the bodies ever start to stack up after that change.  Newsflash.  Hairless monkeys (humans) did that.  Is the USA full of something advanced past those hairless monkeys?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 12, 2020, 02:34:30 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133746
And this is why, jhkim you should be opposing the far left, because you will not like the result if they win or if they loose, and I really think in the long run they will loose.


I agree with Tim's thesis there. My concern is for the next step. The fascist blowback to progressives losing touch with the general public is going to be the grist for the mill of the next wave of progressivism, just as the current wave runs on a lot of old greviances. And the cycle will continue.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 12, 2020, 04:08:41 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133740
So you're a-okay with racial discrimination if it's against whitey...

And instead of helping stop it you'll just sit and laugh...

I have one question tho... Are you white or white looking? Because if yes and you think that by licking their balls you'll get a pass I have really bad news for you.

I don't get what anti-white discrimination you're talking about. I'm opposed to affirmative action, for example, in college admissions. Michelle Alexander took a strong stance against it in her book The New Jim Crow that I found convincing. She argued that it created a model elite of a few black college grads - but hurt the majority of blacks, whose degrees were devalued and the state of schools was distracted from.

Personally, I'm mixed-race -- my father is Korean, but my mother is Caucasian. I've sometimes been mistaken for white, but usually people have some other guess - ranging from Eastern European to Native American.


Quote from: jhkim
If you were to go back in time and talk to a black father in the 1950s -- what would you recommend to him? He rightly thinks that his son is denied opportunity because of his skin pigment. He's torn between some blacks calling for non-violent resistance, and those calling for violent resistance to oppression. What would you suggest to him would be best for his family?

Quote from: oggsmash;1133751
I would tell the black man to go elsewhere, as fast as he can.  Because apparently in 2020 there is an ongoing war against black people waged by police, a school system that will actively hold him back, a social welfare system that will do all it can to get his out of wedlock birthrate as high as possible, and lastly because racist as fuck lefty white women are going to call the police on him at every oppurtunity.

Also, I did not say I feel discriminated against.  But my kids, especially my son, will be.  If you say that is not true, given how admissions and HR's work now, you are not even attempting to be honest.

So... if your advice to him was to go elsewhere - are you considering going elsewhere? Where would you think he should move to, and where would you move?

Regarding discrimination, I'm opposed to affirmative action in college admissions - but it's not a new thing. It's been going on since the 1960s. Here's percentage of blacks at university, for example:

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: left]
[tr]
   [td]Race/ethnicity[/td]
   [td]1976[/td]
   [td]1980[/td]
   [td]1990[/td]
   [td]2000[/td]
   [td]2003[/td]
   [td]2005[/td]
   [td]2008[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
   [td]Black[/td]
   [td]10.0[/td]
   [td]9.7[/td]
   [td]9.6[/td]
   [td]11.8[/td]
   [td]12.7[/td]
   [td]13.1[/td]
   [td]13.9[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
Source: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2010/2010015/tables/table_24_1.asp

The percentage of blacks at university has gone up from 10% to 14% from 1976 to 2008, but it's also true that (a) the black percentage of the population went up about 2% during that time; and (b) the scores for blacks in high school have gotten slightly closer to whites during that time -- score gap from 46 to 27 in NAEP math tests, for example.

It's possible that affirmative action is getting stronger -- but not catastrophically, and there's also pushback against it. For example, here's a liberal editorial against affirmative action, from The Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-painful-truth-about-affirmative-action/263122/
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 12, 2020, 04:46:11 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133746
And this is why, jhkim you should be opposing the far left, because you will not like the result if they win or if they loose, and I really think in the long run they will loose.


Greetings!

Great post my friend! The video is spot on. Tim Pool is a smart guy, and his analysis of this quoted comedian in Europe sounds very accurate as well.

White people are not going to kneel forever. There are white people that are counting the cost, keeping records of the insanity, the shame, the indignities of the left.

And there are white people that will remind everyone of the oppression, of the fear, of the shame. And the rage. The rage will boil, and boil--and white men and yes, even white women will embrace it. Then there will be a reckoning in this country, my friend.

There are many, many white Americans that are armed to the teeth.

Tim Pool is also right. There will be millions of people that will beg--they will beg and cry out for safety, for protection, for justice, and for security. There will be armed men that will answer that call, and the Leftists in power shall taste a new kind of revolution. There will be new protests, new rebellions, and new waves of violence, blood, and death. And it won't have a fucking thing to do with Black Lives Matter. Fire will come, and the Left shall experience true fear.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 12, 2020, 04:49:17 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133746
And this is why, jhkim you should be opposing the far left, because you will not like the result if they win or if they loose, and I really think in the long run they will loose.



Greetings!

Great post my friend! The video is spot on. Tim Pool is a smart guy, and his analysis of this quoted comedian in Europe sounds very accurate as well.

White people are not going to kneel forever. There are white people that are counting the cost, keeping records of the insanity, the shame, the indignities of the left.

And there are white people that will remind everyone of the oppression, of the fear, of the shame. And the rage. The rage will boil, and boil--and white men and yes, even white women will embrace it. Then there will be a reckoning in this country, my friend.

There are many, many white Americans that are armed to the teeth.

Tim Pool is also right. There will be millions of people that will beg--they will beg and cry out for safety, for protection, for justice, and for security. There will be armed men that will answer that call, and the Leftists in power shall taste a new kind of revolution. There will be new protests, new rebellions, and new waves of violence, blood, and death. And it won't have a fucking thing to do with Black Lives Matter. There will be more people marching in the streets, but their chants will be something else entirely. Fire will come, and the Left shall experience true fear.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 12, 2020, 08:56:30 AM
Why would it matter where I tell the Black man in the 50's to go, since leftist rhetoric pushes sooooo hard and so much that the USA is so racist.  So where are you ok with Affirmative action if against for College admission?  I am against it completely, everywhere.   I also think you feel I have issue with black people using it, when they are one of MANY groups who make use of it.  TO get a fair shot, I have no issue, but if "protected" people, which these days is everyone BUT white hetero men(and for colleges and many jobs Asian hetero men), are allowed to meet a considerably lower standard in MANY professions and academic programs it is complete and utter bullshit.  It always has been, but that umbrella has gotten insane.    

     Sort of very telling you choose to point out Black only participation and possible benefits from AA.  Why would you single them out?   Perhaps where you live there is such a tiny percentage of the population that is black they leap to the forefront of your thinking?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 12, 2020, 10:08:34 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133749
I have no issue with more than one view, it is actually healthy.  However,  An 80's democrat's policy stances today are borderline fascist according to current democrats.   I most certainly need the parties to not be so split that the "back and forth" ,which will not be back and forth on the national level in 10 or so years, are essentially one side being a bit bombarded.   The extreme ends right now are going to pull so hard they break the middle.  Better to take two middles not so far from the edges and start over.   Multiple sides will form in both separated areas, but their margins will be closer and less friction or insane policies being pushed.


So, if the extremes of left and right could be magically snipped off the parties somehow, and the political spectrum became "shorter" around the center, would you no longer feel a need for partition?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 12, 2020, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133830
So, if the extremes of left and right could be magically snipped off the parties somehow, and the political spectrum became "shorter" around the center, would you no longer feel a need for partition?

  Nope.  We should have 5-6 parties in the USA.   Rules around consolidation of power sort of make sure this will never happen.    But we swing from saying teen boys who think they are girls should be in locker rooms with girls, or teen boys should be able to compete against girls sprinting is ok because they feel like women is ok, and then say we should be killing qadafi, toppling Saddam, or removing Assad for MURICA and SPREADING DEMOCRACY.   Those are extremes I could completely do away with.   Especially when you keep asking me to fund both of them.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 12, 2020, 10:18:11 AM
And by asking me to fund them, I mean pointing a gun at me and demanding I pay or go to jail.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 12, 2020, 10:20:11 AM
The overton window is also shifting left at such a rate that "extreme" right is very, very murky.   A man says he believes marriage should be between a man and a woman is now a  borderline extreme position.  Just saying it.  Enforcing borders....extreme position.   Stuff 80's democrats ran campaigns around.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 12, 2020, 12:27:03 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1133792
Greetings!

Great post my friend! The video is spot on. Tim Pool is a smart guy, and his analysis of this quoted comedian in Europe sounds very accurate as well.

White people are not going to kneel forever. There are white people that are counting the cost, keeping records of the insanity, the shame, the indignities of the left.

And there are white people that will remind everyone of the oppression, of the fear, of the shame. And the rage. The rage will boil, and boil--and white men and yes, even white women will embrace it. Then there will be a reckoning in this country, my friend.

There are many, many white Americans that are armed to the teeth.

Tim Pool is also right. There will be millions of people that will beg--they will beg and cry out for safety, for protection, for justice, and for security. There will be armed men that will answer that call, and the Leftists in power shall taste a new kind of revolution. There will be new protests, new rebellions, and new waves of violence, blood, and death. And it won't have a fucking thing to do with Black Lives Matter. There will be more people marching in the streets, but their chants will be something else entirely. Fire will come, and the Left shall experience true fear.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

There's also lots of "Asian" people being really oppressed by the left, and lets not forget their rampant antisemitism, plus we Latinos don't really like them much either, I'm hoping the pushback comes in a peaceful form before, and from enough people that it sticks.

But I'm not holding my breath, lefties have shown they can't see beyond their noses.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: RandyB on June 12, 2020, 01:17:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133866
There's also lots of "Asian" people being really oppressed by the left, and lets not forget their rampant antisemitism, plus we Latinos don't really like them much either, I'm hoping the pushback comes in a peaceful form before, and from enough people that it sticks.

But I'm not holding my breath, lefties have shown they can't see beyond their noses.

They want us dead. What will suffice to dissuade them from that goal for an indefinite period of time?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on June 12, 2020, 03:56:58 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1133875
They want us dead. What will suffice to dissuade them from that goal for an indefinite period of time?

Examples being made.  Except now that I don't think even that would do it.  Which is why I'm pessimistic that we are not yet at the bottom.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 12, 2020, 04:01:35 PM


No comment
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: RandyB on June 12, 2020, 05:11:30 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1133892
Examples being made.  Except now that I don't think even that would do it.  Which is why I'm pessimistic that we are not yet at the bottom.

You are right. That won't be sufficient.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 12, 2020, 05:38:09 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133866
There's also lots of "Asian" people being really oppressed by the left, and lets not forget their rampant antisemitism, plus we Latinos don't really like them much either, I'm hoping the pushback comes in a peaceful form before, and from enough people that it sticks.

But I'm not holding my breath, lefties have shown they can't see beyond their noses.


Greetings!

Excellent, Hermano! That's very true. And yes, while "White People" are the Liberal's most popular target--they fucking despise Asians, Latinos, and Blacks that do not agree with them as well. They would crucify you, my friend, right alongside me. We all need to arm the fuck up, stand united, and persevere against them. WE have common values, common dreams, common goals. WE have unity. Genuine unity, based on friendship, love, respect, traditions, shared culture. They are all like diseased rats, Geeky. They want to bite and devour us.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 12, 2020, 07:41:58 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1133904
Greetings!

Excellent, Hermano! That's very true. And yes, while "White People" are the Liberal's most popular target--they fucking despise Asians, Latinos, and Blacks that do not agree with them as well. They would crucify you, my friend, right alongside me. We all need to arm the fuck up, stand united, and persevere against them. WE have common values, common dreams, common goals. WE have unity. Genuine unity, based on friendship, love, respect, traditions, shared culture. They are all like diseased rats, Geeky. They want to bite and devour us.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings hermano!

You're not gonna get an argument against what you say from me.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 13, 2020, 06:46:07 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133831
Nope.  We should have 5-6 parties in the USA.   Rules around consolidation of power sort of make sure this will never happen.    But we swing from saying teen boys who think they are girls should be in locker rooms with girls, or teen boys should be able to compete against girls sprinting is ok because they feel like women is ok, and then say we should be killing qadafi, toppling Saddam, or removing Assad for MURICA and SPREADING DEMOCRACY.   Those are extremes I could completely do away with.   Especially when you keep asking me to fund both of them.


I can relate to some of what you're saying here. Yes, you should have 5-6 parties, like other western democracies do. Or better yet, far better in my opinion, no political parties at all.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Trond on June 13, 2020, 08:41:50 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133922
Greetings hermano!

You're not gonna get an argument against what you say from me.

I have found a lot of latinos to be more conservative than the Democrats would have you believe. It makes sense of course, since they are often conservative Catholics. I wonder if this is one reason why many Dem voters tend to stay home during elections, compared to Republicans; a lot of people being pandered to by Democrats so they "would have" voted for them, except that they don't really like their politics.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 13, 2020, 09:17:09 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133955
I can relate to some of what you're saying here. Yes, you should have 5-6 parties, like other western democracies do. Or better yet, far better in my opinion, no political parties at all.

 Which thing I mentioned would you say is not an extreme?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 13, 2020, 09:38:49 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133963
Which thing I mentioned would you say is not an extreme?

Of the examples you mentioned, I suppose they could all be considered extremes, although toppling Saddam was successfully sold to the electorate, and became a "center" position. It may have fallen out of favour since, but remember, it was a mainstream goal once.

But leaving aside your specific examples, what I can most relate to is unhappiness about how electoral politics works these days.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 13, 2020, 09:51:39 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133966
Of the examples you mentioned, I suppose they could all be considered extremes, although toppling Saddam was successfully sold to the electorate, and became a "center" position. It may have fallen out of favour since, but remember, it was a mainstream goal once.

But leaving aside your specific examples, what I can most relate to is unhappiness about how electoral politics works these days.

  Well, sold to the electorate through the entire body politic and the press lying their asses off to support a narrative.   Odd how things get swallowed so easily when the press will run it non stop isnt it?    I remember, it was mainstream, but for reasons that we will not admit now, the first "war" was complete and utter bullshit too, where we were Kuwait's rent a cop going in to slap Saddam over his reaction to a DIRECT violation of his borders by Kuwait.   But boy, oh boy, did CNN's ratings go through the roof with those missile cameras they love to loop on that channel.    Attacking Saddam was not a popular idea after 9/11.   The public was rumbling about the Saudi's ALOT.  They had to slap that Saddam shit together through every media form in the country as fast as they could (both parties, I think Kucinich and Sanders were the ONLY people in congress who were against it, the entire media -tv, cable news, papers, you name it) all were eager to get a visible bad guy for the USA's toothy beast to go out and attack.   Too much dwelling on how that last flight went down (heroic passengers my ass) and how these guys who crashed those planes were on a "watch list" for months and months while taking flight classes..... and there might have been some torches and pitch forks over in DC.  

     It showed me just how easy the public is to manipulate.   This is the issues the powers that be have with the internet, it is a good deal harder to control narratives now, and I suspect should that ever get "fixed" we are forked forever.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 13, 2020, 09:58:22 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133969
Well, sold to the electorate through the entire body politic and the press lying their asses off to support a narrative.   Odd how things get swallowed so easily when the press will run it non stop isnt it?    I remember, it was mainstream, but for reasons that we will not admit now, the first "war" was complete and utter bullshit too, where we were Kuwait's rent a cop going in to slap Saddam over his reaction to a DIRECT violation of his borders by Kuwait.   But boy, oh boy, did CNN's ratings go through the roof with those missile cameras they love to loop on that channel.    Attacking Saddam was not a popular idea after 9/11.   The public was rumbling about the Saudi's ALOT.  They had to slap that Saddam shit together through every media form in the country as fast as they could (both parties, I think Kucinich and Sanders were the ONLY people in congress who were against it, the entire media -tv, cable news, papers, you name it) all were eager to get a visible bad guy for the USA's toothy beast to go out and attack.   Too much dwelling on how that last flight went down (heroic passengers my ass) and how these guys who crashed those planes were on a "watch list" for months and months while taking flight classes..... and there might have been some torches and pitch forks over in DC.  

     It showed me just how easy the public is to manipulate.   This is the issues the powers that be have with the internet, it is a good deal harder to control narratives now, and I suspect should that ever get "fixed" we are forked forever.

Kucinich, but also don't forget Ron Paul.

Anyway, no argument from me, the whole war was a fraud. An extreme one. But politically, it  was not an "extreme" position. The majority were on board.

Ironically, it was a few on the political extremes (both extremes) that opposed it.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 13, 2020, 10:03:38 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133970
Kucinich, but also don't forget Ron Paul.

Anyway, no argument from me, the whole war was a fraud. An extreme one. But politically, it  was not an "extreme" position. The majority were on board.

Ironically, it was a few on the political extremes (both extremes) that opposed it.

    Ron Paul is not extreme, well other than not wanting to be authoritarian, which is of itself extreme I guess.   Were the Nazi's extreme?  The nation accepted them and their positions, even if not direct members of their party.   I think extreme is a poor word sometimes,  3 years ago, civil war talk was extreme, now a whole lot more people ponder if it could happen. No matter how accepted the idea is IMO I think labeling a consequence extreme might be a better way to describe an idea than the acceptance.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 13, 2020, 10:09:03 AM
Though I do agree it was mainstream the attacking Saddam for "weapons of mass destruction"   By the press's definition a fucking AR-15 is  a weapon of mass destruction.  I just still get my blood pressure up remembering how fucktarded people were talking before we went into Iraq for the second time.   My main concern with the first time we went into Iraq was doing well in Naval Nuclear Power School so that I would belay getting a chance to have a bomb blow up near me for as long as possible.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 13, 2020, 11:49:47 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133971
Ron Paul is not extreme, well other than not wanting to be authoritarian, which is of itself extreme I guess.   Were the Nazi's extreme?  The nation accepted them and their positions, even if not direct members of their party.   I think extreme is a poor word sometimes,  3 years ago, civil war talk was extreme, now a whole lot more people ponder if it could happen. No matter how accepted the idea is IMO I think labeling a consequence extreme might be a better way to describe an idea than the acceptance.


Well you're the one who introduced "extreme," but okay would you prefer " fringe? "

Although, given what we're talking about, rejigging a sovereign state by partition to shift political centres, create more consensus and narrow political spectra, I think defining "extreme" in terms of acceptance rather than consequences is the only useful way to do it.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 13, 2020, 12:01:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133971
Ron Paul is not extreme, well other than not wanting to be authoritarian, which is of itself extreme I guess.   Were the Nazi's extreme?  The nation accepted them and their positions, even if not direct members of their party.   I think extreme is a poor word sometimes,  3 years ago, civil war talk was extreme, now a whole lot more people ponder if it could happen. No matter how accepted the idea is IMO I think labeling a consequence extreme might be a better way to describe an idea than the acceptance.


Truth be told, "extreme" to most seems to mean outside of the Overton window. Which would be fine and dandy hadn't the whole thing moved so far left I'm now considered a right winger or an extreme right winger, when in truth I'm a social liberal minarchist; center right at worst.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: crkrueger on June 13, 2020, 12:09:21 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1133770
I agree with Tim's thesis there. My concern is for the next step. The fascist blowback to progressives losing touch with the general public is going to be the grist for the mill of the next wave of progressivism, just as the current wave runs on a lot of old greviances. And the cycle will continue.


It's obvious.  
Tell white people working two jobs, with no health insurance, a house mortgaged to the hilt that's under water, and kids to feed and provide for that they are benefits of White Privilege, the source of everything wrong with society, objectively bad people, and owe Black people reparations, there's going to be a backlash.

Let gangs of anarchists run freely throughout cities, beating and killing people because of the color of their skin or their political beliefs and people will respond with their own gangs.

Declare one race bad, or the enemy, and you force people that would otherwise be with you to stand against you because they have no choice.

It was possible to historically oppress black people because they are 13% of the population.  Trying that against ~60% of the population will not work out well for you.

This pattern has happened again and again.  It almost seems like someone is running through the How To Create A Populist Tyrannical Dictator Playbook.  It's like someone is running a CIA-type destabilization PsyOp against us.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 13, 2020, 12:55:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133987
Truth be told, "extreme" to most seems to mean outside of the Overton window.

Yes, of course, almost by definition.

And if you would like to re-phrase this in terms of Overton Window, then again, by definition we are looking at whether views are commonly  accepted, not whether they are wise or good.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 13, 2020, 01:49:42 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133985
Well you're the one who introduced "extreme," but okay would you prefer " fringe? "

Although, given what we're talking about, rejigging a sovereign state by partition to shift political centres, create more consensus and narrow political spectra, I think defining "extreme" in terms of acceptance rather than consequences is the only useful way to do it.

    Not dealing with consequences or objective analysis of outcomes is maybe one of my bigger problems than what progagandists are able to spin from fringe to mainstream (though they do this to create serious problems).   All that aside, define what you mean with no partitions.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 13, 2020, 03:05:26 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133995
Not dealing with consequences or objective analysis of outcomes is maybe one of my bigger problems than what progagandists are able to spin from fringe to mainstream (though they do this to create serious problems).   All that aside, define what you mean with no partitions.

Yes, consequences are important, but no matter what you do to separate the reds and  the blues, people on both sides can still get snowed into supporting some awfully stupid stuff with dire consequences. That is not a problem we can hope to solve, either with partition or without.

More on no-partition to follow....
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Omega on June 14, 2020, 07:28:55 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1133988
This pattern has happened again and again.  It almost seems like someone is running through the How To Create A Populist Tyrannical Dictator Playbook.  It's like someone is running a CIA-type destabilization PsyOp against us.

I mentioned this in another thread. It sounds eerily like the sort of anti-communist warnings youd get back in the 50s and 60s and in some Sci-Fi.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 14, 2020, 12:54:05 PM
Quote from: Omega;1134080
I mentioned this in another thread. It sounds eerily like the sort of anti-communist warnings youd get back in the 50s and 60s and in some Sci-Fi.

Maybe because those warnings were on the money? Ever saw the video of the Soviet defector explaining how they were doing it? People should have listened instead of chalking it to a conspiracy theory.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 14, 2020, 05:11:29 PM
It's almost like the people being accused of being communist shills were actually communist shills and re-told their story to frame themselves as heroic underdogs fighting the man?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 14, 2020, 07:57:07 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134100
Maybe because those warnings were on the money? Ever saw the video of the Soviet defector explaining how they were doing it? People should have listened instead of chalking it to a conspiracy theory.

Yuri Bezmenov.
I take it with a grain of salt, as I do with the Frankfurt School, because I think every society has it's disruptive elements, and I think the Soviets simply goaded them on.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 14, 2020, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1134140
Yuri Bezmenov.
I take it with a grain of salt, as I do with the Frankfurt School, because I think every society has it's disruptive elements, and I think the Soviets simply goaded them on.

Watch it again and tell me current year doesn't adhere to the world we would have if everything he said was true. Once is coincidence, two happenstance, three enemy action.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 14, 2020, 08:34:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134143
Watch it again and tell me current year doesn't adhere to the world we would have if everything he said was true. Once is coincidence, two happenstance, three enemy action.

1. He's a spy. Lying is his trade.

2. I'm not saying he's lying. I'm saying it's probably not a complete picture when you only get it from one source.

3. I think a combination of factors are responsible for current events, and if the Soviet Union magically did not exist, we'd probably be in the same or a similar state.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Omega on June 15, 2020, 05:00:17 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1134122
It's almost like the people being accused of being communist shills were actually communist shills and re-told their story to frame themselves as heroic underdogs fighting the man?


There were two things going on with that. On one side you had the media and parts of the government doing public kangaroo court sessions on about anyone. And then you had the covert stuff where the real problems were happening. Essentially the public side was that eras version of virtue signalling and BLM. "Look look! We is tryig us a toxic comunisti See how patriotic we are? Democracy lives matter!"
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Omega on June 15, 2020, 05:02:13 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1134140
Yuri Bezmenov.
I take it with a grain of salt, as I do with the Frankfurt School, because I think every society has it's disruptive elements, and I think the Soviets simply goaded them on.

Thats really the best way too and whats being used now. Goad others into destabalizing the area so all sides are weakened and you can move in easier.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on June 15, 2020, 07:29:09 PM
Thank you all for the excellent and interesting discussion.

Quote from: spon;1133238
Would the federal government allow it - whether Dem or Repub don't they make the most money with the US as a single entity?


There is no doubt the federal gov't will NOT want any separation of states because the gov't exists for power/money and not the people.

However, we are seeing the culture war go violent now. The MSM has declared the Left is victorious and now will usher in their "new normal" upon us that allegedly "all good people" want. The question is "What happens next when their new normal is enforced in our culture and upon people's lives?"


Quote from: Snark Knight;1133242
The Right will not submit? The Right's been giving ground for decades in the name of so called 'compromise' (which just ends up being quiet submission).


You bring up a truly excellent point. There has been zero pushback of any value by the Right. Sure, there's been tweets, memes and rants, but that's not action.

Perhaps this means there is no Silent Majority who disagrees with the Left enough to take action. The question then becomes "Is there a point where the Right will not submit any longer?"


Quote from: Zirunel;1133267
In a democracy, our solution is usually something we call "elections."


Elections only work when the losing side accepts the results of the election and accepts the victor as legitimate.

The two party system only works when both sides compromise to create solutions.

Those ideas are dead in America.


Quote from: Zirunel;1133267
You can't disentangle all that with simple secessionist fantasies.


You're right. That's exactly why I want to have this discussion.

The "simple" method is a bloody civil war of mass destruction. That's not a fantasy, that's most of human history.

But that's what I hope to avoid.


Quote from: oggsmash;1133301
Smart people who read any history, if there were any in leadership positions in the USA, would see that, and understand, amicable divorce and paying people off to move to their ideologically favored spot is best.


Let's examine this option as it sounds peaceful.  

How do we decide who gets what states?
How much money would be paid out?
How would that currency even exist with value once the USA split apart?


Quote from: Zirunel;1133410
This can't just be about abstract political forces and abject populations, any of these schemes would have to confront real people.


Aren't real people being confronted right now with involuntary demands being placed upon them? The Left has decreed "abolish the police" and "meritocracy is racist". Nobody in Seattle voted to have their downtown thrashed. Nobody voted for thousands of American businesses to be smashed, looted and burned. Nobody voted for total cultural capitulation to the BLM mob. But that's where we - the real people - are in 2020.


Quote from: Zirunel;1133410
Human beings, guys, not demographic blocs. People who won't or can't just dutifully pull up stakes, leave homes, farms, jobs, family and plod across the lines the Great Leaders have drawn on a map just because they are too red or too blue.


THIS is the major problem with Oggsmash's concept of a peaceful segregation with "an enforced migration". In a civil war, these people are not a problem because they are dead, homeless or running for their lives.

So Zirunel, what's your solution?

Because we need peaceful solutions to filter into the zeitgeist because right now, there's ONLY the concept of violence on both sides.  The Left has smashed and burned and threatens any who do not capitulate. The Right are buying ammo by the mega-ton. The current trajectory does not appear to include any peaceful solutions.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 15, 2020, 09:19:58 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1134309
So Zirunel, what's your solution?


Originally, I imagined a lengthier post, but I don't have the time or energy so I'll make it brief. I was serious upthread about "no political parties at all."

Abolish them all. They are not constitutionally necessary, they were never originally envisioned, and they have become destructive parasitic growths on electoral democracy, co-opting the loyalties of legislators away from their constituents. Get rid of them, and I believe electoral democracy gets a new lease on life. Government by, of, and for the people rather than by, of and for the party.

I realize this may not be as sexy as some of the more apocalyptic visions here. And it may not sound like it really addresses the divisions that frustrate you so much, and it doesnt, not directly. But I think it would end up doing just that.

And hey, you all would get to keep the country you (mostly) profess to love.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: ffilz on June 15, 2020, 11:21:55 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1134325
Originally, I imagined a lengthier post, but I don't have the time or energy so I'll make it brief. I was serious upthread about "no political parties at all."

Abolish them all. They are not constitutionally necessary, they were never originally envisioned, and they have become destructive parasitic growths on electoral democracy, co-opting the loyalties of legislators away from their constituents. Get rid of them, and I believe electoral democracy gets a new lease on life. Government by, of, and for the people rather than by, of and for the party.

I realize this may not be as sexy as some of the more apocalyptic visions here. And it may not sound like it really addresses the divisions that frustrate you so much, and it doesnt, not directly. But I think it would end up doing just that.

And hey, you all would get to keep the country you (mostly) profess to love.

We can't constitutionally abolish the parties, however, I think we could remove the party primaries from the government elections, and we could remove party affiliation labels from the ballots, and of course remove the "straight ticket" single vote option.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on June 16, 2020, 01:50:40 AM
A better solution is to move as much government to the local level. The flashpoints are because we're trying to come up with one solution for the entire country. And because there are irreconcilable differences, whatever solution wins a bare majority becomes an open wound to the bare minority. If instead those decisions were made at the local level, then the pressure is reduced. Sure, there will always busy-bodies always want to get in their neighbor's business. But it's easier to let it slide when it's over there, instead of something you have to deal with personally.

Though in terms of voting, non-geographic voting might be an interesting approach. Leave one house of Congress tied to the land, but change the other so it's tied to ideas. You vote for who you want to, where ever they are, and where ever you are. There are a couple ways you could apportion it: The most straightforward is to say the top 100 or 435 get a seat. Or, because 1 person representing 700,000 (or 20 million) has stretched the idea of representative democracy to the point of absurdity, maybe there are 5,000 seats. That's 1 seat per 50,000 voting age people, which is the voting age population (250M) divided by the smallest territory's population (about 50K). Then count up the votes, and apportion the seats proportionally. One person might win a single seat, or 500, and that's the number of votes they can cast. That would allow small interest groups to have a vote, and force coalitions.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 07:58:51 AM
Quote from: ffilz;1134338
We can't constitutionally abolish the parties, however, I think we could remove the party primaries from the government elections, and we could remove party affiliation labels from the ballots, and of course remove the "straight ticket" single vote option.

...And maybe their tax exempt status...
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Omega on June 16, 2020, 08:19:57 AM
A balkanized US could never be peaceful as long as nuts out there exist who want to kill someone. Or areas that are now cut off from certain infrastructures. Then theres the problem of the power grid. What if group A cuts off group B? All hell could break loose. And then theres things like medical aid and so on that could see some places hurting.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 08:37:46 AM
If the only reason people decided to not do something was pain and discomfort, then people would never have babies.  Birth is painful, and this will be painful at best.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 08:48:14 AM
Quote from: Pat;1134350
A better solution is to move as much government to the local level. The flashpoints are because we're trying to come up with one solution for the entire country. And because there are irreconcilable differences, whatever solution wins a bare majority becomes an open wound to the bare minority. If instead those decisions were made at the local level, then the pressure is reduced. Sure, there will always busy-bodies always want to get in their neighbor's business. But it's easier to let it slide when it's over there, instead of something you have to deal with personally.

Though in terms of voting, non-geographic voting might be an interesting approach. Leave one house of Congress tied to the land, but change the other so it's tied to ideas. You vote for who you want to, where ever they are, and where ever you are. There are a couple ways you could apportion it: The most straightforward is to say the top 100 or 435 get a seat. Or, because 1 person representing 700,000 (or 20 million) has stretched the idea of representative democracy to the point of absurdity, maybe there are 5,000 seats. That's 1 seat per 50,000 voting age people, which is the voting age population (250M) divided by the smallest territory's population (about 50K). Then count up the votes, and apportion the seats proportionally. One person might win a single seat, or 500, and that's the number of votes they can cast. That would allow small interest groups to have a vote, and force coalitions.


Personally, I do believe representatives should represent actual geographic constituencies. One reason I am not a huge fan of PR. So while there may be scope for adding "at-large" seats, I would not be keen on doing away with geographic representation.

As to your point about constituencies being too big, I can only agree. Somewhat separate issue, but I agree with you.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on June 16, 2020, 10:01:35 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;1134385
Personally, I do believe representatives should represent actual geographic constituencies. One reason I am not a huge fan of PR. So while there may be scope for adding "at-large" seats, I would not be keen on doing away with geographic representation.
I think they're both useful. Geography tends to normalize things -- within any particular area, you'll have a wide range of views, so elected representatives will tend toward the norm. That's particularly true when electoral districts are large, and the typical one now encompasses the better part of a million voters. Which is why third party or independents are scarcer than hen's teeth, in Congress. Conversely, just needing a certain number of votes at the national level to have a seat allows every reasonable-sized voting bloc, no matter how distributed, to have a voice. This would allow small parties, small religious groups, and even fandoms to get someone into office and have a voice, even if it's a small one. And I think that's important, because the US is more fractured than ever, and the US system is very poor at giving those groups a voice. Unless you're toward the mainstream of one of the two major parties, there will never, ever, be someone in Congress representing anything even close to what you believe.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Chris24601 on June 16, 2020, 01:31:46 PM
I think subsidiarity (i.e. all problems should be dealt with at the level of the smallest group that can solve them... schools, for example, can be run at the level of the individual school district and so should not have any state, much less federal, intrusion into their operation; if the students are doing badly, the parents who care enough have direct access to the people who make the final decisions) and geographical representation are the ideal.

The big trick is trying to get the federal (and to a lesser extent, state) behemoth to spin-down and return the authority to the proper levels of governance.

Barring that, the KungFlu has proven that the need for a centralized legislative location is obsolete. As such, I propose that that Congress conduct all business via teleconference and all elected represented be fitted with ankle monitors and prohibited from leaving the actual district they represent for the duration of their term (penalties to be determined, but losing the seat should be a given).

MAYBE for particularly urban districts where it doesn't even cover a single city you might allow them to travel up X miles from their district, but the gist of it is simple... decentralize the glamour of Washington DC.

In addition to forcing them to live among the actual people they represent (Carpet-bagging is a lot less appealing when you actually have to live in fly-over country instead of just visiting there every 2-6 years), it also forces all the lobbyists to divide their efforts from a centralized K-Street to 435 different offices and without near as much efficiency of expense (at best you could invite two senators and a congressman to a given locale in the congressman's district).

Further, since they're now in their actual district and won't be travelling outside it, cut their salaries to the median income of their district. If their district does better THEY do better... if they and their allies turn it into a third-world shit hole then they get to live on the level of income their constituents do.

Finally... hit Twitter, Google/YouTube, Facebook, Amazon and the six conglomerates who control 99% of our entertainment media with massive anti-trust lawsuits and break them up like was done to the telephone industry. Break the back of the digital gatekeepers trying to normalize the insanity.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 02:35:04 PM
Quote from: Chris24601;1134440
I think subsidiarity (i.e. all problems should be dealt with at the level of the smallest group that can solve them... schools, for example, can be run at the level of the individual school district and so should not have any state, much less federal, intrusion into their operation; if the students are doing badly, the parents who care enough have direct access to the people who make the final decisions) and geographical representation are the ideal.

The big trick is trying to get the federal (and to a lesser extent, state) behemoth to spin-down and return the authority to the proper levels of governance.

Barring that, the KungFlu has proven that the need for a centralized legislative location is obsolete. As such, I propose that that Congress conduct all business via teleconference and all elected represented be fitted with ankle monitors and prohibited from leaving the actual district they represent for the duration of their term (penalties to be determined, but losing the seat should be a given).

MAYBE for particularly urban districts where it doesn't even cover a single city you might allow them to travel up X miles from their district, but the gist of it is simple... decentralize the glamour of Washington DC.

In addition to forcing them to live among the actual people they represent (Carpet-bagging is a lot less appealing when you actually have to live in fly-over country instead of just visiting there every 2-6 years), it also forces all the lobbyists to divide their efforts from a centralized K-Street to 435 different offices and without near as much efficiency of expense (at best you could invite two senators and a congressman to a given locale in the congressman's district).

Further, since they're now in their actual district and won't be travelling outside it, cut their salaries to the median income of their district. If their district does better THEY do better... if they and their allies turn it into a third-world shit hole then they get to live on the level of income their constituents do.

Finally... hit Twitter, Google/YouTube, Facebook, Amazon and the six conglomerates who control 99% of our entertainment media with massive anti-trust lawsuits and break them up like was done to the telephone industry. Break the back of the digital gatekeepers trying to normalize the insanity.

I'm with you in spirit. Disconnecting the machines that insinuate themselves between representatives and their constituents, whether party machines or whatever, is big with me. Some of your specific ideas might be more vengeful and punitive than helpful. I don't think legislators need to be put under house arrest or anything. why can't they go on a honeymoon, spend time at the cottage, etc? As long as they are made responsible to their constituents above all, I think you'll find they make the right decisions about where to spend their time. And the ones that don't probably won't be serving long.

Good point about lobbyists though, more machines that divide the loyalties of representatives. As bad as parties, really, and it would be good if their efforts were made more difficult.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 03:22:11 PM
Being an elected official is a vocation now.  When the nation was founded, you voted for one of two or more candidates of people who were successful in endeavors outside of government.  Now people have "political careers" where they are groomed and "leveled up" for ever higher office and of course make more and more "friends" who are really patrons supporting them financially between the really nice paying government positions.  Then these people leave office, and go work for some of these patrons and act to "lobby" which now means writing legislation and handing it to a politician for a signature after greasing their palms.   This is unsustainable without the political division.  With it, I think it may be time for a re set.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 03:46:34 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1134459
Being an elected official is a vocation now.  When the nation was founded, you voted for one of two or more candidates of people who were successful in endeavors outside of government.  Now people have "political careers" where they are groomed and "leveled up" for ever higher office and of course make more and more "friends" who are really patrons supporting them financially between the really nice paying government positions.  Then these people leave office, and go work for some of these patrons and act to "lobby" which now means writing legislation and handing it to a politician for a signature after greasing their palms.   This is unsustainable without the political division.  With it, I think it may be time for a re set.

Is that really new though? When the nation was founded, I have a feeling your choices were mostly:

1) wealthy local landowner who has rotated through a series of public offices and patronage appointments and whose hobby is basically career politician

Or:

2) a different, rival wealthy local landowner who has rotated through a series of public offices and patronage appointments and whose hobby is basically career politician

Not sure that much has changed (at least not in that respect, sure there have been other changes, but career politician has been a constant)
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on June 16, 2020, 04:02:38 PM
Thinking about the vocation/avocation thing, what if avocational public service became a mandate? Term limit not just specific offices, but any service in the government. And no 20 years and out retirement deals. I'm talking about something like a 5 year maximum. That's the total amount of years you're allowed to work in the government, over your whole life.

That destroys the advantage of incumbency, makes lobbying far less important, brings in a wealth of experience from the private sector, gives ordinary citizens a chance to compete by eliminating the pros, and annihilates the institutional silo effect that makes the government assume the government is the solution to everything.

And since I deliberately worded it to include all government jobs, not just politicians, it also breaks the power of the fourth branch of government, the largely unaccountable bureaucrats who persist regardless of the political winds.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 16, 2020, 04:04:18 PM
Quote from: Pat;1134464
Thinking about the vocation/avocation thing, what if avocational public service became a mandate? Term limit not just specific offices, but any service in the government. And no 20 years and out retirement deals. I'm talking about something like a 5 year maximum. That's the total amount of years you're allowed to work in the government, over your whole life.

That destroys the advantage of incumbency, makes lobbying far less important, brings in a wealth of experience from the private sector, gives ordinary citizens a chance to compete by eliminating the pros, and annihilates the institutional silo effect that makes the government assume the government is the solution to everything.

And since I deliberately worded it to include all government jobs, not just politicians, it also breaks the power of the fourth branch of government, the largely unaccountable bureaucrats who persist regardless of the political winds.

Beautiful.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 04:15:07 PM
Quote from: Pat;1134464
And since I deliberately worded it to include all government jobs, not just politicians, it also breaks the power of the fourth branch of government, the largely unaccountable bureaucrats who persist regardless of the political winds.

And the military of course, no more vets in congress. Yeah, needs some tinkering, but there's something to this. Personally, I'd be more concerned with the revolving door after a first federal election than what someone did beforehand, but yeah...
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 05:20:23 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1134462
Is that really new though? When the nation was founded, I have a feeling your choices were mostly:

1) wealthy local landowner who has rotated through a series of public offices and patronage appointments and whose hobby is basically career politician

Or:

2) a different, rival wealthy local landowner who has rotated through a series of public offices and patronage appointments and whose hobby is basically career politician

Not sure that much has changed (at least not in that respect, sure there have been other changes, but career politician has been a constant)


  No it has not.  It became something you did at the end, as a hobby I guess, if your hobbies are to be hated.  Once we started ramping up budgets (thanks to institution of income taxes on a permanent basis) and growing government like crazy, the career politicians were born.  Once WW2 was done, then it just got stupid.  It has happened, but the number of people who can not do anything, have never done anything, really raced up.  We are a point now it is insane.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 05:23:05 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1134467
And the military of course, no more vets in congress. Yeah, needs some tinkering, but there's something to this. Personally, I'd be more concerned with the revolving door after a first federal election than what someone did beforehand, but yeah...

  Military in congress is not a problem.  I almost rather you have to serve before getting to decide if people leave the nation and die.  However, our military is driven by MASSIVE corporate interests, and those people exert a crazy amount of influence over everyone military or not.  There should be no standing army, period.  The military needs a massive shrinking, but I have no issue with combat vets serving in congress.   Most of them, who have seen people die, are not too eager to get involved in foreign affairs.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: KingCheops on June 16, 2020, 05:50:30 PM
I think that American Senators should be forced to serve time in active war zones as part of their term.  Sort of like how Roman Senators used to be generals (except we don't want these idiots running things on the ground).  It'd give them a very solid appreciation for what they're doing to other countries and their own troops.

Of course I live in Soviet Canuckistan so we don't have an functioning government...
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 06:03:27 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1134477
No it has not.  It became something you did at the end, as a hobby I guess, if your hobbies are to be hated.  Once we started ramping up budgets (thanks to institution of income taxes on a permanent basis) and growing government like crazy, the career politicians were born.  Once WW2 was done, then it just got stupid.  It has happened, but the number of people who can not do anything, have never done anything, really raced up.  We are a point now it is insane.

I dunno, both Washington and Jefferson entered politics at age 26. Neither saved it to "the end." They may have had other fish to fry as well, but they were career politicians from a young age.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 06:04:27 PM
Well, I rather not make it a requirement.  Because just like Rome (and here to be honest, like swift boat Kerry, or world's worst combat pilot McCain) you end up with want to be politicians using connections to be officers in the military, and if you are incompetent (hell if you are competent you might get people killed) in combat it is a shit show.  Guys like McCain were "warhawks" because it was over for him, and though he sucked bad at it, he got "street cred" for it.  I wonder how many times he voted with a fucking brain tumor on policy?   I think 65 should be no more government positions or elected office.  We all get slower in every area over 50, and the mind is one of those areas.

    I do see where the system of government in Starship troopers could be born from though.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 06:06:24 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1134487
I dunno, both Washington and Jefferson entered politics at age 26. Neither saved it to "the end." They may have had other fish to fry as well, but they were career politicians from a young age.

    wasnt Jefferson already a practicing Lawyer around 20?  After seeing family members die, and being surround by hard work he did and saw others do, I also think entering in there when revolution was cooking.....peaceful separation if you will.....is a bit of a different thing.  Young in age comparing now to then is not so easy.  I also think he was practicing law the whole time he was a delegate wasnt he?  It is not as if he was making a living from being a delegate.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 06:12:03 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1134480
Military in congress is not a problem.  I almost rather you have to serve before getting to decide if people leave the nation and die.  However, our military is driven by MASSIVE corporate interests, and those people exert a crazy amount of influence over everyone military or not.  There should be no standing army, period.  The military needs a massive shrinking, but I have no issue with combat vets serving in congress.   Most of them, who have seen people die, are not too eager to get involved in foreign affairs.

Agreed, but if having a "government job" for 5 years disqualifies you from running for elected office (not my idea, I'm just responding to it), then that disqualifies the military too. And not only is the military the ultimate government job and the ultimate bureaucracy, it is also, as you say, driven by revolving-door politics. So if a public school teacher, park ranger or cop are disqualified, then it's hard to justify a special carve out for the military.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 06:13:21 PM
Working in a law office around 20, I think he was older before passing the Bar, but he may have been younger working as a clerk (which does all the functions of a lawyer for a bar lawyer then).  I can not remember,  I know nothing of Washington, but have a biographical series about Jefferson, but the author wants me to know about every love letter or dance the dude ever went to, so I am barely to the point he actually got to the Bar.  And that is over 100 pages in, of the first book, of a 5 book series.  This dude REALLY loved TJ
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 06:14:32 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1134490
Agreed, but if having a "government job" for 5 years disqualifies you from running for elected office (not my idea, I'm just responding to it), then that disqualifies the military too. And not only is the military the ultimate government job and the ultimate bureaucracy, it is also, as you say, driven by revolving-door politics. So if a public school teacher, park ranger or cop are disqualified, then it's hard to justify a special carve out for the military.

 No its easy.  I didnt come up with the government job thing.  But  can see ground to stand on under that idea you and Pat are tossing around
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 06:17:21 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1134489
wasnt Jefferson already a practicing Lawyer around 20?  After seeing family members die, and being surround by hard work he did and saw others do, I also think entering in there when revolution was cooking.....peaceful separation if you will.....is a bit of a different thing.  Young in age comparing now to then is not so easy.  I also think he was practicing law the whole time he was a delegate wasnt he?  It is not as if he was making a living from being a delegate.

No, they weren't making a living off it (not openly, anyway, but I'm sure their  personal estates benefited from their "public service"). They were wealthy planters.  I believe both entered politics during the Seven Years War, long before the revolution was cooking. Politics was what wealthy planters did.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 06:24:13 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1134494
No, they weren't making a living off it (not openly, anyway, but I'm sure their  personal estates benefited from their "public service"). They were wealthy planters.  I believe both entered politics during the Seven Years War, long before the revolution was cooking. Politics was what wealthy planters did.


  You have some evidence of that?  Because I have never once heard such a thing.  Both had passive incomes, Lawyers made out just fine financially, and landowners tended to have some involvement in politics as did all citizens, because people then knew one thing was for certain, you may take no interest in politics, but it will always take interest in you.

   Given how broke Jefferson was at the end of his life, pretty sure you that could be a reach on Jefferson.  Washington I have no idea.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 06:26:57 PM
The revolution was cooking when Jefferson was in Law school(well what was law school then, more an apprenticeship).  He heard constant arguments from both sides   The Boston Tea party did not just suddenly happen.  Tension between the Crown and the Colonies was a long, slow burn.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2020, 06:36:24 PM
But back to the "idea" I can not give any scenario where there is separation with no violence.  Some violence (maybe little when taken on scale) possible.  But no violence?  Well considering how many people have died during riots the past three weeks over one guy being killed wrongfully, I do not forsee a reasonable, thought through solution in this country.  We have people die over tennis shoes in this country.  I think the whole notion of amicable divorce, though I liked the idea and greatly prefer it, is a not a chance in hell.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 06:54:24 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1134496
You have some evidence of that?  Because I have never once heard such a thing.  Both had passive incomes, Lawyers made out just fine financially, and landowners tended to have some involvement in politics as did all citizens, because people then knew one thing was for certain, you may take no interest in politics, but it will always take interest in you.

   Given how broke Jefferson was at the end of his life, pretty sure you that could be a reach on Jefferson.  Washington I have no idea.

My understanding is that Jefferson's peak net worth was apparently very high, but didn't end so well. Washington apparently had a lot of debt at various times (many of these guys sank fortunes into their great houses) but he drew an enormous salary from the public purse and died very very wealthy (his wife contributed a big inheritance of her own as well).
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 07:06:15 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1134498
But back to the "idea" I can not give any scenario where there is separation with no violence.  Some violence (maybe little when taken on scale) possible.  But no violence?  Well considering how many people have died during riots the past three weeks over one guy being killed wrongfully, I do not forsee a reasonable, thought through solution in this country.  We have people die over tennis shoes in this country.  I think the whole notion of amicable divorce, though I liked the idea and greatly prefer it, is a not a chance in hell.

No, I can't imagine it either. Either a messy divorce or no divorce.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on June 16, 2020, 09:35:15 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1134490
Agreed, but if having a "government job" for 5 years disqualifies you from running for elected office (not my idea, I'm just responding to it), then that disqualifies the military too. And not only is the military the ultimate government job and the ultimate bureaucracy, it is also, as you say, driven by revolving-door politics. So if a public school teacher, park ranger or cop are disqualified, then it's hard to justify a special carve out for the military.
I can seen an argument for the military, but carving out little exceptions is how we end up with all the little special favors and tweaks that make the rules byzantine, hard to navigate, and favor some groups over others. Since that leads to cronyism and job security for bureaucrats, I have a strong reflexive disinclination in that direction.

Though in a variation on Starship Troopers, there's a decent argument for universal, compulsory military service for a relatively short, fixed period. It would be a very different country if everyone was familiar with firearms and there were no career soldiers.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 16, 2020, 10:16:15 PM
Quote from: Pat;1134520
I can seen an argument for the military, but carving out little exceptions is how we end up with all the little special favors and tweaks that make the rules byzantine, hard to navigate, and favor some groups over others. Since that leads to cronyism and job security for bureaucrats, I have a strong reflexive disinclination in that direction.

Agreed. I don't like the carve-out either.

Quote from: Pat;1134520
Though in a variation on Starship Troopers, there's a decent argument for universal, compulsory military service for a relatively short, fixed period. It would be a very different country if everyone was familiar with firearms and there were no career soldiers.

Yes. Enormously expensive, but there are benefits to youth, to the country, and to the military itself.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Chris24601 on June 16, 2020, 11:03:26 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1134508
No, I can't imagine it either. Either a messy divorce or no divorce.

The biggest problem is the Left (more accurately the money behind the Left) has no interest in a divorce. It wants the other side to be their slave labor and would prefer you dead before allowing you to actually be free.

The only way we get out of this without a massive war is to defund the money men financing all these domestic terror groups... that means Gates, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Soros and ultimately the one who's been financing them (buying stocks, providing cheap labor for manufacturing, etc.), China (the biggest beneficiary of a destabilized USA).
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on June 17, 2020, 03:34:23 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;1134325
Abolish them all. They are not constitutionally necessary, they were never originally envisioned, and they have become destructive parasitic growths on electoral democracy, co-opting the loyalties of legislators away from their constituents. Get rid of them, and I believe electoral democracy gets a new lease on life. Government by, of, and for the people rather than by, of and for the party.


This is an excellent idea. I fully support dismantling the 2 party system and I agree its to blame from much of the hyperpartisanship. Political party allegiance isn't helping the American people. It would also dovetail nicely with Pat's idea of a refocus on local and state politics.


Quote from: Chris24601;1134440
In addition to forcing them to live among the actual people they represent (Carpet-bagging is a lot less appealing when you actually have to live in fly-over country instead of just visiting there every 2-6 years), it also forces all the lobbyists to divide their efforts from a centralized K-Street to 435 different offices and without near as much efficiency of expense (at best you could invite two senators and a congressman to a given locale in the congressman's district).


Love this idea. I'm always stunned when I hear about Congresscritters going on foreign junkets. WTF. Keeping them local more keeps them from clubbing up in DC. It wouldn't stop lobbyists (aka, they can also Zoom and PayPal), but the lobbyists would be competing for time with local interest groups.


Quote from: Chris24601;1134440
Finally... hit Twitter, Google/YouTube, Facebook, Amazon and the six conglomerates who control 99% of our entertainment media with massive anti-trust lawsuits and break them up like was done to the telephone industry. Break the back of the digital gatekeepers trying to normalize the insanity.


You put that so well. The digital gatekeepers are normalizing the insanity.


Quote from: Pat;1134464
I'm talking about something like a 5 year maximum. That's the total amount of years you're allowed to work in the government, over your whole life.


I'm good with 10 years total. There's some value to experience, but the lifelong gov't careers have to end. I would also separate military from non-military because we need people who rank up through the chain of command inside the military, but 20 years would be max there.

Over a lifetime, we can expect 50 work years so 20 years military or 10 years govt leaves plenty of time outside in the private sector.


Quote from: oggsmash;1134498
Well considering how many people have died during riots the past three weeks over one guy being killed wrongfully, I do not forsee a reasonable, thought through solution in this country.  We have people die over tennis shoes in this country.


Good point. I should have stipulated "no mass violence", aka can we achieve divorce with less than 1000 dead?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on June 17, 2020, 09:38:51 AM
Quote from: Pat;1134520
I can seen an argument for the military, but carving out little exceptions is how we end up with all the little special favors and tweaks that make the rules byzantine, hard to navigate, and favor some groups over others. Since that leads to cronyism and job security for bureaucrats, I have a strong reflexive disinclination in that direction.

Though in a variation on Starship Troopers, there's a decent argument for universal, compulsory military service for a relatively short, fixed period. It would be a very different country if everyone was familiar with firearms and there were no career soldiers.

I would take the military promotion system and apply it to all government, more or less.  Basically, it is move up or move out.  So let's look at elected officials.  Say put the cap as 6 to 8 years on any one office.  You could be a representative for 6, a senator for 6, a cabinet/appointed official for 8, vice president for 8, and president for 8. Max.  Sounds like a lot.  Except the number of slots go down radically as you move up, so that most people are forced out before they can do any of that.  Second, if you are on that track, then no regular civil service position for you--at least not without a long break in between (8 years maybe, for the occasional guy out of retirement to mind the shop for a time).
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 17, 2020, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1134611
I would take the military promotion system and apply it to all government, more or less.  Basically, it is move up or move out.  So let's look at elected officials.  Say put the cap as 6 to 8 years on any one office.  You could be a representative for 6, a senator for 6, a cabinet/appointed official for 8, vice president for 8, and president for 8. Max.  Sounds like a lot.  Except the number of slots go down radically as you move up, so that most people are forced out before they can do any of that.  Second, if you are on that track, then no regular civil service position for you--at least not without a long break in between (8 years maybe, for the occasional guy out of retirement to mind the shop for a time).

And next, deal with the lobbyists and the think-tanks, where career bureaucrats, most notably the neocons, get cozy  parking spaces while they wait for the administration to change and they can slide into their next government job.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 18, 2020, 03:56:43 AM
I agree a number of the political reforms being called for -- but I think many of them may have unintended effects. But ultimately, I think the core of the issue is a cultural one of political identity, and lack of dialog. Some political reforms may help change attitudes, but it's really the political identity culture that's changed.

Quote from: oggsmash;1134498
But back to the "idea" I can not give any scenario where there is separation with no violence.  Some violence (maybe little when taken on scale) possible.  But no violence?  Well considering how many people have died during riots the past three weeks over one guy being killed wrongfully, I do not forsee a reasonable, thought through solution in this country.  We have people die over tennis shoes in this country.  I think the whole notion of amicable divorce, though I liked the idea and greatly prefer it, is a not a chance in hell.
I also don't see a reasonable, thought-through solution. However, I've noted before that there less deaths from these riots than from the 1992 Rodney King riots. Fox News reports 17 related deaths, and Wikipedia reports 22 -- and those are both less than half of the 63 deaths from the Rodney King riots.

https://fox6now.com/2020/06/08/deadly-unrest-here-are-the-people-who-have-died-amid-george-floyd-protests-across-us/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests

The 1950s and 1960s had more contentious issues as well as political violence during them - like segregation, war, nuclear holocaust. By comparison, I think that today's political differences are less serious. We're just feeling more constant outrage because of news and social media driving us to that.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: crkrueger on June 18, 2020, 04:22:16 AM
The only way the US doesn't end up in a Cyberpunk-like dystopia is if...
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 18, 2020, 10:44:11 AM
Greetings!

Tim Pool discusses the Atlanta Police shooting of Rayshard Brooks, continued Leftist rebellion and rioting, and a potential civil war.



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 18, 2020, 11:26:36 AM
Greetings!

80 BLM "Protesters" arrive at a small Ohio town--and are met by 700 armed citizens that tell them they are not bringing their protest into their town. Tim Pool discusses regular American citizens resisting the BLM rioting and the Antifa rebels. Very interesting commentary and news stories.



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 18, 2020, 11:33:20 AM
If you want to really, REALLY piss the lefties or BLM cultists off:

Point out that when the American Nazi party wanted to march in Skokie, note they didn't riot when they got turned down initially.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2020, 11:36:14 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1134801
I agree a number of the political reforms being called for -- but I think many of them may have unintended effects. But ultimately, I think the core of the issue is a cultural one of political identity, and lack of dialog. Some political reforms may help change attitudes, but it's really the political identity culture that's changed.


I also don't see a reasonable, thought-through solution. However, I've noted before that there less deaths from these riots than from the 1992 Rodney King riots. Fox News reports 17 related deaths, and Wikipedia reports 22 -- and those are both less than half of the 63 deaths from the Rodney King riots.

https://fox6now.com/2020/06/08/deadly-unrest-here-are-the-people-who-have-died-amid-george-floyd-protests-across-us/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests

The 1950s and 1960s had more contentious issues as well as political violence during them - like segregation, war, nuclear holocaust. By comparison, I think that today's political differences are less serious. We're just feeling more constant outrage because of news and social media driving us to that.

  So racism is less serious than segregation?  So we have not been in a near constant state of war the past 20 years?  China, Russia, the USA no longer have nuclear weapons or tension between them?    I suppose so.   I think when peaceful protests have a third of the deaths as a full on riot it is a problem.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 18, 2020, 12:52:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim
The 1950s and 1960s had more contentious issues as well as political violence during them - like segregation, war, nuclear holocaust. By comparison, I think that today's political differences are less serious. We're just feeling more constant outrage because of news and social media driving us to that.
Quote from: oggsmash;1134882
So racism is less serious than segregation?  So we have not been in a near constant state of war the past 20 years?  China, Russia, the USA no longer have nuclear weapons or tension between them?    I suppose so.   I think when peaceful protests have a third of the deaths as a full on riot it is a problem.
I'm not saying it isn't a problem - I'm saying that it's less of a problem than the previous 1992 riots that had three times as many deaths. Less deaths is good.

Likewise, wars are a problem - but the recent fighting in Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, and Iraq have had fewer casualties on both sides than the Korean and Vietnam wars. U.S. troops are dying far less, and are killing less people. That's a good thing.

Nuclear weapons are still a problem, but tensions are far better than they were in the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2020, 01:29:08 PM
But the people, by and large are weaker.   The pressure being smaller doesnt matter as much when the people feeling the heat are pretty weak.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: RandyB on June 18, 2020, 02:15:04 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1134900
But the people, by and large are weaker.   The pressure being smaller doesnt matter as much when the people feeling the heat are pretty weak.

"Stand up like a dog that's been beat too much,
Til you spend half your life just coverin' up." - Bruce Springsteen, Born in the USA
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 18, 2020, 09:02:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1134895
I'm not saying it isn't a problem - I'm saying that it's less of a problem than the previous 1992 riots that had three times as many deaths. Less deaths is good.

Likewise, wars are a problem - but the recent fighting in Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, and Iraq have had fewer casualties on both sides than the Korean and Vietnam wars. U.S. troops are dying far less, and are killing less people. That's a good thing.

Nuclear weapons are still a problem, but tensions are far better than they were in the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Quote from: oggsmash;1134900
But the people, by and large are weaker.   The pressure being smaller doesnt matter as much when the people feeling the heat are pretty weak.
I'd say that the people are more complacent rather than weaker. And I think it does matter. Complacency means that they won't have any stomach for actual violent civil war. Their rebellion will be more about posting angrily on Twitter rather than shooting up their political opponents.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2020, 09:17:42 PM
They are for certain weaker.  How can you say they are not?  Look at the rate of obesity.  The general rigor the average 21 year old has had, how much manual labor has the average 21 year old done?  How many fist fights has the average 21 year old been in?  Complacency means you do not think it will get too bad (bystander syndrome) because someone will do something to prevent that.  Though complacency does marry nicely with physical and mental weakness.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: tenbones on June 22, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
I would say the complacency creates the weakness which reinforces the complacency as the new norm.

Deracination is the process that has brought us here.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on June 22, 2020, 05:27:59 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133403
A balkanized USA would be MORE dependant on foreign trade not less. In addition China already wraps its inky tentacles into the USAs power base. You think that will stop or will be weakened by Balkanization? Im not against some logical debating, but this is a power fantasy or something. Not a logical discussion of the outcomes.


You're right. We should discuss the logical outcomes of balkanization.

Balkanization does mean the various nation-states would be involved in more foreign trade, and the blue nations would ally with China as fellow communists as they would be the perfect targets for total CCP infestation.

While these sound like impossibly negative outcomes, the "staying together" option requires either bloody civil war to eradicate the Left (or Right), or requires the Right to capitulate and submit to the Left's new normal.


Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1133524
Rather, it is a sense of irreconcilable differences coming to no good end.  It's not as if the people of that day didn't know that issue of slavery was causing an increasing divide.  A lot of smart and sometimes even wise people worked really hard in an attempt to head off what they saw coming.


THIS is exactly why I am concerned.

While I don't want civil war to be on the menu for 2021, we can't deny 2020 has been an increasingly faster and rockier roller coaster of insane...and nobody can predict where the roller coaster will go, but with the increased calls for violence and submission, I don't see this crazy ride rolling into Happy Town.


Quote from: oggsmash;1133622
As to which side is righteous, the fact is I dont care.  I care about what is best for my family.  One side of the argument is putting obstacles up to the future for my kids, as many as they can, because of their skin pigment.   How much of that, exactly should I tolerate?  How much more does my kid need to outperform another to get a spot at an academic institution?   How much above the outstanding will my son have to be on paper to get a foot in a door?


I highly suggest your children learn about self-employment and starting their own business. I do not believe that being a white wage slave in the Left's coming corporate skin-color-uber-alles racist utopia is a good life plan. We have companies promising to hire and promote by color, colleges declaring enrollment by color and legislation to make that protected legally.

Two of my friends have enrolled their kids in summer online intro-to-business classes and another has their teen son becoming an online stock trader. None of them see any future for their kids in corporate America. Where college was previously assumed, there's debate now among the parents whether paying for an indoctrination camp for 4 years is worth the degree.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on June 22, 2020, 06:02:36 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133644
I will try to get to No-partition options, and feel free to keep nudging me that way, that's cool, I just need to know why partition appeals, what problems it solves and why you think it will solve them. Then maybe I can think of no-partition options that give you some or all of what you want.


In theory, partition would solve the culture war.

The concept would be each opposing side could live according to its own values without imposing those values upon others who do not share them. AKA, the Left could have their utopia and enforce its beauty and wonder upon those who chose to live within the Left's territory, but those who oppose the Left could have their own nation-state, free of the Left's utopian.


Quote from: Zirunel;1133644
So it does sound like the back-and-forth of democracy no longer does the job for you? You want a more uniform sovereign state where everyone belongs to the same party?


Democracy has little to do with the culture war. Voting doesn't solve anything anymore. Nobody in Seattle voted for CHAZ. Nobody voted for their downtowns and businesses to be burnt down. We can't vote out cancel culture from social media. We can't vote out 30 years of indoctrination from our media, entertainment and academia.


Quote from: Zirunel;1133644
And I'm guessing here, not trying to put words in your mouth, but maybe more than voting preferences, you want to live in a state with more common shared cultural values?


Can a nation survive and thrive without common shared cultural values?


Quote from: Chris24601;1133676
There is no way a shooting war doesn't turn into an utter horror show... the only question is is it a quick show or a protracted one?


In Boogaloo discussions, they believe the cities can be cutoff swiftly, which then quickly collapse into anarchy, and then surrender unconditionally to avoid annihilation. I can't see multiple cities being cutoff without tremendous coordination and leadership which the federal gov't would squelch long before it became a threat.  However, even with leadership, coordination and resources, the last American Civil War was supposed to be over by Christmas and we're now 19 years in Afghanistan.

So utter horror show it right. That's why we desperately need a peaceful solution.


Quote from: Shasarak;1133683
I still have confidence in you guys.  Remember what Winston Churchill said:  You can depend upon the Americans to do the right thing. But only after they have exhausted every other possibility.


Winston's been cancelled by Burn Loot Murder.

His statue will be torn down, maybe at best shuffled off to a museum, and his life will be rewritten or memory holed.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2020, 06:39:46 PM
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4592[/ATTACH]

No comment.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: David Johansen on June 22, 2020, 07:26:50 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1135700
In theory, partition would solve the culture war.

The concept would be each opposing side could live according to its own values without imposing those values upon others who do not share them. AKA, the Left could have their utopia and enforce its beauty and wonder upon those who chose to live within the Left's territory, but those who oppose the Left could have their own nation-state, free of the Left's utopian.

Who's gonna pay for it, right block?  I don't think so.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 22, 2020, 07:37:38 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;1135734
Who's gonna pay for it, right block?  I don't think so.

  I am sure all those tech billionaires will take their businesses to the left side and pay state taxes for the first time in their existence and finance that utopia.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shasarak on June 22, 2020, 11:02:52 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1135700
Winston's been cancelled by Burn Loot Murder.

His statue will be torn down, maybe at best shuffled off to a museum, and his life will be rewritten or memory holed.

Luckily it seems that in the UK other people can organise riots, sorry I mean counter demonstrations, when they decide that "actually no I dont have to take this shit"

So Winston is safe for now.

Why is the US so laid back about letting these loons run free?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 22, 2020, 11:05:35 PM
Greetings!

Here is the Matt Walsh program showing a video of a hate crime in progress, videotaped by the assailants brother. The Leftist media approves of this barbarous behavior. You can look forward to more of this coming to you in America.



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 22, 2020, 11:29:43 PM
Greetings!

Ben Shipiro discusses the 1619 project and the ideology guiding many of the Marxist BLM protesters, their goals, and the recent wave of tearing down statues and American history.



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 23, 2020, 11:23:00 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1135754
Luckily it seems that in the UK other people can organise riots, sorry I mean counter demonstrations, when they decide that "actually no I dont have to take this shit"

So Winston is safe for now.

Why is the US so laid back about letting these loons run free?


  Because they will mob up on you, hit you with a skateboard, gang of them chase you, pull a knife and when you shoot the knife wielder the police come arrest you, and every other counter protester present, even if they didnt know you.   That might be why.  Could also be that right after a police officer going right down the line with operating procedure gets charged with capital murder, it might be that.  It might be when a group of counter protesters, defending themselves get the best of the "side walk discussion", and the police press no charges for what was a mutual fight, a DA decides to charge you after the fact, with no victims statements (all the anitfa were not able to be located) and you start looking at a 4 year sentence.  Might be that.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shasarak on June 23, 2020, 04:58:04 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1135816
Because they will mob up on you, hit you with a skateboard, gang of them chase you, pull a knife and when you shoot the knife wielder the police come arrest you, and every other counter protester present, even if they didnt know you.   That might be why.  Could also be that right after a police officer going right down the line with operating procedure gets charged with capital murder, it might be that.  It might be when a group of counter protesters, defending themselves get the best of the "side walk discussion", and the police press no charges for what was a mutual fight, a DA decides to charge you after the fact, with no victims statements (all the anitfa were not able to be located) and you start looking at a 4 year sentence.  Might be that.

Got to give those Antifa guys props, at least they are out there hitting people with skateboards instead of staying home clutching their pearls.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2020, 05:04:54 PM
It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees, even the provervial milktoast fencesitter gets it.

Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mercurius on June 23, 2020, 09:57:06 PM
Haven't read the thread, but I saw a map some years ago of a hypothetical arrangment of larger quasi-nation states that were based on socio-cultural regions. I can't seem to find the map, but I think there were about a dozen or so.

Then return to the actual idea of united states, with each one semi-autonomous, but more open than nations. EUish, but learning from their mistakes.

It is a nice idea, but difficult to implement.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: spon on June 24, 2020, 04:28:27 AM
Quote from: Mercurius;1135929
Then return to the actual idea of united states, with each one semi-autonomous, but more open than nations. EUish, but learning from their mistakes.

The EU seem hell-bent on "ever-closer union", so I'm not sure that's really the state you want to copy if your plan is to "relax" central control.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Omega on June 24, 2020, 11:49:33 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1134994
I'd say that the people are more complacent rather than weaker. And I think it does matter. Complacency means that they won't have any stomach for actual violent civil war. Their rebellion will be more about posting angrily on Twitter rather than shooting up their political opponents.


Instead they rile others up to do the killing for them.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Omega on June 24, 2020, 11:56:34 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1135754
Why is the US so laid back about letting these loons run free?


Because the news is telling them to allow this. "because they are sad".

Resistance is starting to grow. In Ohio apparently they chased off some people who were coming in from out of town or state to incite riots. They just werent having any of it. News of course probably paints the resistance as violent Trump loving nazis.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 24, 2020, 02:26:10 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1135755
Greetings!

Here is the Matt Walsh program showing a video of a hate crime in progress, videotaped by the assailants brother. The Leftist media approves of this barbarous behavior. You can look forward to more of this coming to you in America.



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Supposedly this was caused by the worker dropping the N-bomb... even though it's not recorded and only Roid Rage Man heard it.

The proper thing to do is ignore someone who says that (and take your money elsewhere).
The improper thing to do is call him a cracker (and take your money elsewhere).
The ROCK STUPID FUCKTARD thing to do is to violently assault the man, thus guaranteeing (a) you will be charged, as Macy's has stated they are supporting the employee, (b) next time your roided-up ass starts a fight, someone draws a pistol and shoots you, thus making you more useful than you were (ie. Fertilizer).
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 25, 2020, 06:50:27 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1135869
Got to give those Antifa guys props, at least they are out there hitting people with skateboards instead of staying home clutching their pearls.

  Well, all they risk is physical resistance.  What they will not get are legal issues.  I hit someone in the street, they are going to the hospital for sure, and I am going to prison for sure.  I am not certain how that helps my wife and kids out.  I guess I could be cautionary tale #123 for why you do not resist leftists.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 25, 2020, 08:05:19 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1136192
Well, all they risk is physical resistance.  What they will not get are legal issues.  I hit someone in the street, they are going to the hospital for sure, and I am going to prison for sure.  I am not certain how that helps my wife and kids out.  I guess I could be cautionary tale #123 for why you do not resist leftists.

Depends on the jurisdiction. Antifa tends to thrive when the local politicos are in its pocket; nothing cramps a revolutionary's style quite like getting double-tapped.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 25, 2020, 08:37:11 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135872
It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees, even the provervial milktoast fencesitter gets it.



Greetings!

Good video, my friend! Tim Pool is on target here. He's right about conservative Americans standing up. I've been saying the same thing for years. My buddy tells me that conservatives are "Too polite, too courteous, too nice, and too Christian" to get fired up and *mean*. Conservatives need to get angry. Our country is under assault by these fucking Marxist traitors and anarchists. Black Lives Matter is a fucking Marxist organization, and full of traitors to our Republic and our entire nation. Good Americans need to get angry, and stand against the evil hordes. Either stand up and resist, or our country will fall.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 25, 2020, 08:41:46 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1136038
Supposedly this was caused by the worker dropping the N-bomb... even though it's not recorded and only Roid Rage Man heard it.

The proper thing to do is ignore someone who says that (and take your money elsewhere).
The improper thing to do is call him a cracker (and take your money elsewhere).
The ROCK STUPID FUCKTARD thing to do is to violently assault the man, thus guaranteeing (a) you will be charged, as Macy's has stated they are supporting the employee, (b) next time your roided-up ass starts a fight, someone draws a pistol and shoots you, thus making you more useful than you were (ie. Fertilizer).


Greetings!

Yeah, Ghostmaker! The whole idea of a Macy's employee referring to them in such a manner while on a company phone--yeah, that's bullshit. This is another example of a racist jackass thinking he can beat weak white people down, simply because he can, and he can get away with it.

It would be so nice if our law enforcement tracked the bastard down and sent him to prison for felony assault, for *years*. Let the fucker see how he likes being in prison.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: KingCheops on June 25, 2020, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1136204
It would be so nice if our law enforcement tracked the bastard down and sent him to prison for felony assault, for *years*. Let the fucker see how he likes being in prison.

Given that he likes beating on people he might enjoy it.  He certainly has the correct mentality for prison.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 25, 2020, 12:27:58 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1136201
Depends on the jurisdiction. Antifa tends to thrive when the local politicos are in its pocket; nothing cramps a revolutionary's style quite like getting double-tapped.

  I had a friend who got into a fight he did not start.  Freak punch from him (he threw 4 punches two landed) and he put the dudes eye out.  Because he was trained he got 80 months, and has to serve 80 percent of it.   I do not live in a blue state.  You never, ever know what sort of agenda a judge and a prosecutor will have.  I think a whole lot of people do not realize the judges, prosecutors and public defenders all drink together and hang out together.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: RandyB on June 25, 2020, 01:42:30 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1136245
I had a friend who got into a fight he did not start.  Freak punch from him (he threw 4 punches two landed) and he put the dudes eye out.  Because he was trained he got 80 months, and has to serve 80 percent of it.   I do not live in a blue state.  You never, ever know what sort of agenda a judge and a prosecutor will have.  I think a whole lot of people do not realize the judges, prosecutors and public defenders all drink together and hang out together.

"It's a big club, and we're not in it."
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: KingCheops on June 25, 2020, 04:07:46 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1136245
I had a friend who got into a fight he did not start.  Freak punch from him (he threw 4 punches two landed) and he put the dudes eye out.  Because he was trained he got 80 months, and has to serve 80 percent of it.   I do not live in a blue state.  You never, ever know what sort of agenda a judge and a prosecutor will have.  I think a whole lot of people do not realize the judges, prosecutors and public defenders all drink together and hang out together.

The DA in Atlanta is doing a good job of red-pilling people.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on June 25, 2020, 06:07:06 PM
Thank you all for 20 pages of great discussion.

It's clear we're on a similar page.
1) When (or if) the USA splits up, it will be a violent event with mass casualties.
2) There's no realistic peaceful method to deal with "Blue Cities inside Red States".
3) The balkanized states would be far weaker than the current union, and under international threat.  

Quote from: SHARK;1136203
Good Americans need to get angry, and stand against the evil hordes. Either stand up and resist, or our country will fall.

Unfortunately, the Left knows the Right are toothless.

The Right has capitulated for decades to the culture war.
The Right has repeatedly elected Republicans who are mostly either useless or outright traitors.
The Right keeps financially supporting companies, celebrities and sports stars who hate them.  
The Right wanks on social media while the Left are changing our world every day in the streets.

And if anyone on the Right does rise, the "justice system" is going to crush them and make them an example to scare everyone else into submission. Any individual or small group that "stands up and resist" will be imprisoned, the entire Right will be double-demonized by the media, and people who value their jobs, family and nice things will crawl into the fetal position hoping the nightmare will pass them by.

The Right needs a leader. That's why Trump is so popular. He's the first Republican since Reagan with balls, at least that's the persona. But our "fearless leader" has become a bumbling wimp during CoronaChan and the BLM riots. He won't take action. The media has him cornered and he's scared he will lose the election...which he definitely will if he keeps being scared.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on June 25, 2020, 06:57:40 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1136321

The Right needs a leader. That's why Trump is so popular. He's the first Republican since Reagan with balls, at least that's the persona. But our "fearless leader" has become a bumbling wimp during CoronaChan and the BLM riots. He won't take action. The media has him cornered and he's scared he will lose the election...which he definitely will if he keeps being scared.

It's bad, but I don't think it's quite as bad as that.  Remember, Trump is primarily a counter-puncher who waits for the effective moment to respond.  Most of the other stuff he does (and all of his tweets) are designed to distract from the counter punch that is on the way.  He's been consistent with that since he ran the first time.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he is still fighting the same way here.  Whether or not that is effective or enough in this particular circumstance is another argument.  Given some of the back-stabbers ostensibly on his side (or even occasionally on his side for some issue), I don't blame him for sticking with what has worked for him.

Remember, the gas-lighting from the media is designed to make you give up.  There are lots of places in this country where people haven't.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 25, 2020, 08:15:31 PM
If a serious right wing leader comes around and there is hard core unity with right leaning people in this country who begin to adopt some leftist tactics, like identity politics and aggressive activism in the street, I will probably move to another country.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: David Johansen on June 26, 2020, 02:56:52 AM
The problem is that it's getting to where you almost have to climb into the trenches with the far right lunatic fringe just to avoid being torn limb from limb by the left which has already been consumed by its lunatic fringe entirely.  The middle ground, the reasonable positions, the live and let live attitude is being burned away and if you won't accept the most unreasonable and hateful positions from one side or the other you're just making yourself a target for both.  I expect things will get really ugly if something doesn't change.  Who'd have thought Trump would have been the best president the far left could have asked for.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 26, 2020, 11:54:10 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;1136399
The problem is that it's getting to where you almost have to climb into the trenches with the far right lunatic fringe just to avoid being torn limb from limb by the left which has already been consumed by its lunatic fringe entirely.  The middle ground, the reasonable positions, the live and let live attitude is being burned away and if you won't accept the most unreasonable and hateful positions from one side or the other you're just making yourself a target for both.  I expect things will get really ugly if something doesn't change.  Who'd have thought Trump would have been the best president the far left could have asked for.


Precisely. And even those who might not want to climb into that trench are finding their patience rapidly ground down by the nonstop slander and libel hucked at them by the lunatics.

I'mma lift something from Status 451's review of Days of Rage that applies here.
Quote
In 209 BC, two Qin Dynasty army officers, Chen Sheng and Wu Guang, were ordered to lead their troops on a march to provide reinforcements. Massive flooding delayed them. They couldn't make their rendezvous time. In the Qin Dynasty, this carried the death penalty. No excuses.

"What's the penalty for being late?"

"Death."

"What's the penalty for rebellion?"

"Death."

"Well -- we're late."

And that's the story of the Dazexiang Uprising.

They're gonna call us Nazis, well...

The left sneers, and says 'Well, you're just showing your true colors'. Well, congratulations, Mr. Lefty, you've made it impossible to make any other move! I can't even opt to not play the game because you refuse to leave me the fuck alone.

Larry Correia once pointed out that to the left, violence is a knob with gradiations, and they tweak it up and down as needed. For the right, it's a switch, and there are two positions: Safe, and Shoot Every Motherfucker. And there's a LOT of motherfuckers gonna wind up getting shot in the face if that switch gets flipped. Prosecute the shooters? Sure -- if you can convince the cops to not take another 8 hour break at the donut shop because they don't feel like (a) getting shot at or (b) doing a damn thing to help because you tossed one of their buddies under the bus last week for calling someone 'sir' when they were 'ma'am'. Good luck with that!

And that assumes someone who's decided to go Galt on your stupid judicial system isn't going to have backup plans or friends. Eric Rudolph didn't exactly have a lot of friends, and was hiding out in the wilderness. This'll be more like that Gerard Butler film, Law Abiding Citizen. Hang on to your tomatoes, kids!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: RandyB on June 26, 2020, 12:22:20 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1136484
Precisely. And even those who might not want to climb into that trench are finding their patience rapidly ground down by the nonstop slander and libel hucked at them by the lunatics.

I'mma lift something from Status 451's review of Days of Rage that applies here.

They're gonna call us Nazis, well...

The left sneers, and says 'Well, you're just showing your true colors'. Well, congratulations, Mr. Lefty, you've made it impossible to make any other move! I can't even opt to not play the game because you refuse to leave me the fuck alone.

Larry Correia once pointed out that to the left, violence is a knob with gradiations, and they tweak it up and down as needed. For the right, it's a switch, and there are two positions: Safe, and Shoot Every Motherfucker. And there's a LOT of motherfuckers gonna wind up getting shot in the face if that switch gets flipped. Prosecute the shooters? Sure -- if you can convince the cops to not take another 8 hour break at the donut shop because they don't feel like (a) getting shot at or (b) doing a damn thing to help because you tossed one of their buddies under the bus last week for calling someone 'sir' when they were 'ma'am'. Good luck with that!

And that assumes someone who's decided to go Galt on your stupid judicial system isn't going to have backup plans or friends. Eric Rudolph didn't exactly have a lot of friends, and was hiding out in the wilderness. This'll be more like that Gerard Butler film, Law Abiding Citizen. Hang on to your tomatoes, kids!


Or the original Red Dawn, with domestic enemies rather than foreign.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 26, 2020, 02:54:49 PM
Greetings!

Inertia, confusion, and outright corruption of law enforcement and the judicial system is going to ignite a mass reaction in conservatives as they unleash a backlash. No one will care what "the system" thinks or threatens to do, when they have either failed to protect the conservative community, or have proven themselves to be unjust and corrupt. Conservatives will eventually fight back against the BLM and Antifa thugs that swarm our cities. Eventually, the thunder will come, and there will be no mercy, no negotiation, just fire and blood.

It is definitely a "switch" for conservatives. Keep threatening them, keep pushing them, and see what happens. The fury unleashed will be so intense the government won't be able to control it or restrain it in any meaningful way.

It is the Leftists that have pushed for this conflict. Their flouting of law and order, of civil decency, their open lawlessness and rebellion, is provoking the normal Americans to resist. This conflict will become more intense as we go along.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 26, 2020, 04:05:04 PM
Here's a fun bit of trivia: evidently some of the Antifa tards are raising bail money through GoFundMe.

Which has a policy against raising money for criminality anyways, not that it stops those idiots.

But here's a thought: Antifa has been declared a terrorist organization.

GFM is putting itself in grave risk letting Antifa fundraise through it.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: RandyB on June 26, 2020, 04:11:33 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1136542
Here's a fun bit of trivia: evidently some of the Antifa tards are raising bail money through GoFundMe.

Which has a policy against raising money for criminality anyways, not that it stops those idiots.

But here's a thought: Antifa has been declared a terrorist organization.

GFM is putting itself in grave risk letting Antifa fundraise through it.

And since BLM, Antifa, and all their Marxist ilk are currently enjoying the protection of various legal jurisdictions throughout the U. S., GFM is perfectly safe in allowing their fellow travelers to use their service for supporting said Marxists.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Chris24601 on June 26, 2020, 04:14:11 PM
In regards to "violence switch" I think for Conservatives right now it comes down to the hope that elections might still matter. President Trump was elected in 2016 despite everything and I think what's holding off Civil War 2.0 is mainly the notion that if they just ride it out to election day and re-elect President Trump they won't have to resort to violence.

I hope they're right and that the Marxists fail to steal the election, because right now the fig leaf that elections can still change things because we got Trump elected is just about the ONLY thing keeping a whole lot conservatives from flipping that switch. If the Left successfully steals it, then elections no longer matter and the conservatives are left with no voice and nothing to lose because the Left wants everyone to the right of Mao dead or enslaved.

The best summary of what's going to happen? Watch John Wyck. The Left is the punkass son. This rioting is when he's robbing John and stealing the 2020 election would be shooting his dog. Pray to God they don't shoot the dog.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 27, 2020, 06:56:14 PM
The left is free to leave the United States anytime they wish, but seeing how they hate this country and burn the American flag, I do not think they deserve a piece of it. I'll tell you what I would support however. If they really hate the United States, we should send them to Puerto Rico and then grant Puerto Rico it's Independence, and have everyone who lives there lose their American citizenship, they all become citizens of the independent nation of Puerto Rico instead and if they want to come back here, they can go through immigration and we can say, "no, we don't need any America haters here!"
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 27, 2020, 07:22:21 PM
Greetings!

Here is an interesting analysis of a potential civil war in the United States.



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 27, 2020, 09:17:44 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1136733
Here is an interesting analysis of a potential civil war in the United States.

Leaving aside how the fighting would go -- I think the more interesting issue is exactly who the sides would be; and why things would necessarily turn to civil war.

At around 0:50, he outline the argument:
Quote from: John Mark
On _Mark My Words_ I discuss how the American Right will win.

1. Abandon Failed/Incomplete Strategies
 - Classical liberalism, libertarianism, teaching the Left tolerance,
   civic nationalism, full-franchise democracy
2. Analyze How the Civil War Will Play Out
 - I advocate peaceful separation; apart from that civil war is certain
3. Explain the Solution
 - Separate from the Left forever
 - Separate nations or stats including 1+ white supermajority
 - Parasite-proof governance (propertarianism)

Around 1:40, he makes the case for why violence will be necessary:
Quote from: John Mark
The Right Wing in America very soon will never be able to win an election again. Donald Trump is the last Republican president, whether he wins in 2020 or not, because 70% of non-white people vote Left/Democrat and the vast majority of immigrants, both legal and illegal, into America are non-whites, and so very soon not even the electoral college will save the Right Wing and so it's just a matter of time before the grassroots right figures out they'll never win any more elections.

At 11:00, he focuses particularly on the alt-right.
Quote from: John Mark
And remember too, roughly 10 to 15 million Americans have quote-unquote alt-right beliefs. And the great majority of this group of people is already done with Trump. They've already given up on political solutions because they're seeing Trump call for more legal immigration which they know is suicidal for Western Civilization in America.

This is repeated in the conclusion at 48:40 that immigration will mean that the Right Wing cannot win. The key assumption here is that the Right Wing cannot hope to gain support among non-whites and/or immigrants, which I think is not warranted. I think there is plenty of potential for the Right Wing to gain support among non-whites.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 27, 2020, 09:25:35 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1136739
Leaving aside how the fighting would go -- I think the more interesting issue is exactly who the sides would be; and why things would necessarily turn to civil war.

At around 0:50, he outline the argument:


Around 1:40, he makes the case for why violence will be necessary:


At 11:00, he focuses particularly on the alt-right.


This is repeated in the conclusion at 48:40 that immigration will mean that the Right Wing cannot win. The key assumption here is that the Right Wing cannot hope to gain support among non-whites and/or immigrants, which I think is not warranted. I think there is plenty of potential for the Right Wing to gain support among non-whites.

Also the cities can't feed themselves without the rural agricultural areas which tend to be conservative.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 27, 2020, 09:54:15 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1136739
Leaving aside how the fighting would go -- I think the more interesting issue is exactly who the sides would be; and why things would necessarily turn to civil war.

At around 0:50, he outline the argument:


Around 1:40, he makes the case for why violence will be necessary:


At 11:00, he focuses particularly on the alt-right.


This is repeated in the conclusion at 48:40 that immigration will mean that the Right Wing cannot win. The key assumption here is that the Right Wing cannot hope to gain support among non-whites and/or immigrants, which I think is not warranted. I think there is plenty of potential for the Right Wing to gain support among non-whites.

Greetings!

Well, currently the demographic trends show that only about 10% of blacks--maybe even 20%--vote conservative. 80% or more of black Americans consistently vote Liberal Democrat. Hispanics seem to vote about 30% Conservative. Asians in general are about 50% voting Conservative.

That kind of demographic trend doesn't bode well for Conservatives in this country, so his assessment that foreign immigrants tend to vote 2/3rds Liberal seems reasonable and accurate. Considering how nutty and authoritarian the Marxists are--and how Democrats consistently wipe their ass with the US Constitution, freedom in America is under assault, and it seems like it will only get worse, the more Liberals seize power. The Democrats have already admitted that they want to take the New York/Chicago/California strategy to the national level, thus ensuring a one-party ruling system. Liberals and Marxist scum will no doubt *love* that turn of events, and the consolidation of unassailable political power into their hands in perpetuity. Chicago has been ruled by Liberals for 89 years; California has been dominated by Marxists for the last 20 years effectively. An ever-tightening, ever-increasing iron-fisted political power is what the Liberals want to achieve. The Liberals seem to love creating a one-party ruled system. When that happens, the entire voting tradition becomes irrelevant.

Conservatives I think have a very different answer.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 27, 2020, 10:16:09 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1136743
Greetings!

Well, currently the demographic trends show that only about 10% of blacks--maybe even 20%--vote conservative. 80% or more of black Americans consistently vote Liberal Democrat. Hispanics seem to vote about 30% Conservative. Asians in general are about 50% voting Conservative.

That kind of demographic trend doesn't bode well for Conservatives in this country, so his assessment that foreign immigrants tend to vote 2/3rds Liberal seems reasonable and accurate. Considering how nutty and authoritarian the Marxists are--and how Democrats consistently wipe their ass with the US Constitution, freedom in America is under assault, and it seems like it will only get worse, the more Liberals seize power. The Democrats have already admitted that they want to take the New York/Chicago/California strategy to the national level, thus ensuring a one-party ruling system. Liberals and Marxist scum will no doubt *love* that turn of events, and the consolidation of unassailable political power into their hands in perpetuity. Chicago has been ruled by Liberals for 89 years; California has been dominated by Marxists for the last 20 years effectively. An ever-tightening, ever-increasing iron-fisted political power is what the Liberals want to achieve. The Liberals seem to love creating a one-party ruled system. When that happens, the entire voting tradition becomes irrelevant.

Conservatives I think have a very different answer.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Simple, if they hate America, we make them leave! We ask them if they hate America, why don't they get out! If they like Marxism, Cuba is not far away, they can go there. If they want a piece of America, they'll get the cities and no more, and who will feed them? The cities can't feed themselves, and what farmers will want to live under a bunch of cities that hate America? Simple, if they hate America, they should do what others have done when they hate the place in which they live, they leave! Lots of Jews left the Soviet Union when they were persecuted, and they went to Israel and America. These Marxists can go to some place where Marxism has already been established, no revolution here!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 28, 2020, 01:37:09 PM
John Mark's analysis of civil war makes some assumptions which I feel are reaches.  Assuming the military would not be very involved or split is one I think you should not make.  There is also the reality of you do not know, what you do not know.   We honestly have no idea what extremely advanced weapons systems or the US government has to deploy in an insurrection.

      If we are talking a fight just between left voters and right voters, anywhere there is a fight right wins in a fight that looks like me beating the shit out of a 7th grader.  That is not how it will be I think.  I think if a real civil war starts, right and left lose.  A coup of sorts led by someone with alot of resources and military connections sweeps in and we get a whole new government that was not concerned with right or left, and an almost oligarchical/aristocratic structure.   This entity would wage total war and institute all kinds of "reforms" to prevent such a thing happening again.  From gun confiscation to public executions for all kinds of crimes, and they will crush any right or left spines pretty fast.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 28, 2020, 03:02:34 PM
Quote from: jhkim
This is repeated in the conclusion at 48:40 that immigration will mean that the Right Wing cannot win. The key assumption here is that the Right Wing cannot hope to gain support among non-whites and/or immigrants, which I think is not warranted. I think there is plenty of potential for the Right Wing to gain support among non-whites.
Quote from: SHARK;1136743
Well, currently the demographic trends show that only about 10% of blacks--maybe even 20%--vote conservative. 80% or more of black Americans consistently vote Liberal Democrat. Hispanics seem to vote about 30% Conservative. Asians in general are about 50% voting Conservative.

That kind of demographic trend doesn't bode well for Conservatives in this country, so his assessment that foreign immigrants tend to vote 2/3rds Liberal seems reasonable and accurate. Considering how nutty and authoritarian the Marxists are--and how Democrats consistently wipe their ass with the US Constitution, freedom in America is under assault, and it seems like it will only get worse, the more Liberals seize power.
I agree that is roughly the current voting trend, but politics change. If politics didn't change and was only determined by ethnicity, then we never would have had Democrat control in the past. But in reality, we've gone back and forth between Democrat and Republican control. Trends and platforms have changed.

John Mark's belief is that the only way to save America is a split that ensures a white supermajority (from his summary).

Even though I have different politics than you, I don't think that non-whites are inherently liberal extremists. For example, Latinos tend to have a lot of traditional conservative values -- they're more likely to be religious than whites, for example. Asian-Americans and African-Americans also have a lot of conservative values, with some differences. I think Republicans will be forced to change some of their platform to deal with the changing demographics while staying competitive, but I don't think it means abandoning all conservative values.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 28, 2020, 03:12:30 PM
What platform items should they change?  Looser borders?  Tighter gun control? Getting tougher hate speech crimes?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 28, 2020, 03:16:02 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1136815
I agree that is roughly the current voting trend, but politics change. If politics didn't change and was only determined by ethnicity, then we never would have had Democrat control in the past. But in reality, we've gone back and forth between Democrat and Republican control. Trends and platforms have changed.

John Mark's belief is that the only way to save America is a split that ensures a white supermajority (from his summary).

Even though I have different politics than you, I don't think that non-whites are inherently liberal extremists. For example, Latinos tend to have a lot of traditional conservative values -- they're more likely to be religious than whites, for example. Asian-Americans and African-Americans also have a lot of conservative values, with some differences. I think Republicans will be forced to change some of their platform to deal with the changing demographics while staying competitive, but I don't think it means abandoning all conservative values.

Greetings!

Indeed, while the more recent voting trends back up what John Mark has analyzed--I think that Republicans *can* attract minority voters, even though they have also seemed inept in their policies and outreaches. So, in theory I think it's possible. I think it may take too much time though. The Liberals want to nationalize the California program, so there is only one party to vote for, one party that controls all real power. So, those are not good omens. Making Conservatives feel politically trapped, ignored, helpless and oppressed is not going to end well for the Liberals.

In California, you have minority voters *still* voting in fucking Marxist Democrats, when in policy after policy, they do nothing but ruin California's economy and make it into an urban shithole--but in election after election, "Galuup! Hee hee! Lets vote Democrat again and again!" FOR 20 YEARS this has essentially been what is happening in California. Republicans will never achieve anything in the state of California. The Californians have been brainwashed into being Marxist sheep, dependent on government for everything. Their entire world view has crippled and blinded them to how fucked they are--and how fucked they shall remain. The Liberals are not suddenly going to stop the social engineering programs, the constant propaganda, and the endless indoctrination in all the schools, K-12 and into all of the colleges and universities.

Imagine if the Liberals get to nationalize what they have created in California?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 28, 2020, 03:16:20 PM
I should also add, I find it odd the only republican who did not try to appeal to lefties as to how to be accepted by them and how republicans can win, won the presidency when it was all but assured (due to demographics, which LOTS of major publications write ad nausem about how they ensure democrat wins from the NYT to USA Today) a democrat would win.   He ran on what was an 80's democrats platform.  

    I think about the last thing anyone who is right of what counts as center right now needs to do is listen to anything who is a leftist says about winning elections.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 28, 2020, 03:18:09 PM
Republicans can not attract anything.  Populist right leaning policies most certainly can.  The Republican party is not really right wing in many ways, and is certainly not populist.  This is why the only guy who had a chance to beat hillary, was the republican who was not a republican.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 28, 2020, 07:34:10 PM
So much of this seems peevish and overheated. No, the demographics don't trend well for conservatives looking forward (in the medium term), but nothing lasts forever. You want to win elections? Fight smart. Change how those demographics lean, and build a new power base. That takes time, and even when it works it won't last forever either, but you'll get a good run. Instead we get "American democracy sucks now cuz I'm not winning, imma flip the whole damn table and go off in a huff." That's the voice of people who never really believed in it in the first place.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 28, 2020, 07:50:35 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1136847
So much of this seems peevish and overheated. No, the demographics don't trend well for conservatives looking forward (in the medium term), but nothing lasts forever. You want to win elections? Fight smart. Change how those demographics lean, and build a new power base. That takes time, and even when it works it won't last forever either, but you'll get a good run. Instead we get "American democracy sucks now cuz I'm not winning, imma flip the whole damn table and go off in a huff." That's the voice of people who never really believed in it in the first place.

Greetings!

Yeah, I think Conservatives need to fight smart, and reach out to different groups to explain our values, our policies and plans, and how and why they work.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: moonsweeper on June 28, 2020, 07:51:28 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1136847
So much of this seems peevish and overheated. No, the demographics don't trend well for conservatives looking forward (in the medium term), but nothing lasts forever. You want to win elections? Fight smart. Change how those demographics lean, and build a new power base. That takes time, and even when it works it won't last forever either, but you'll get a good run. Instead we get "American democracy sucks now cuz I'm not winning, imma flip the whole damn table and go off in a huff." That's the voice of people who never really believed in it in the first place.


Let's do a quick check and see who has been flipping tables because an election didn't go their way.../sarc
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zirunel on June 28, 2020, 08:15:10 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1136853
Let's do a quick check and see who has been flipping tables because an election didn't go their way.../sarc

If you're referring to the Democrat response to Trump winning, then yes, plenty of disbelief, sour grapes, partisan obstruction, impeachment, and poor-losering. But that's not a table-flip. That's no different from what we saw on the other side in the 90s.

Calling for disbanding the country, civil war, partition when things might not be going your way electorally....THAT'S a table flip.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 28, 2020, 08:32:14 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1136857
If you're referring to the Democrat response to Trump winning, then yes, plenty of disbelief, sour grapes, partisan obstruction, impeachment, and poor-losering. But that's not a table-flip. That's no different from what we saw on the other side in the 90s.

Calling for disbanding the country, civil war, partition when things might not be going your way electorally....THAT'S a table flip.


  IMPEACHMENT....purely partisan IMPEACHMENT,  not a table flip?   Pushing a KNOWN BULLSHIT NARRATIVE OF RUSSIAN COLLUSION, not a table flip?  Going after people and prosecuting them for having the great sin of supporting the orange man, not a table flip?  These mother fuckers have tried their ABSOLUTE BEST to have a blood less coup.  Since my side is no where near as good at deceptive, duplicitous, media manipulation, I think it best if my side flips the table the way we know how to.  But for you to act like this was in any way normal behavior to the results of a presidential election, and not pushing a coup and fanning flames at EVERY POINT, you just think it is ok to destroy people in their personal lives and make them pariahs and remove them completely from professional life (remove their ability to make a living).  If you do not see that, you better start.  Because the side I am on will flip tables, too, but it damn sure will not be trying to trick people with bullshit paperwork process crimes.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 28, 2020, 09:00:24 PM
Whats the saying?  Doing jobs Americans wont do, and these days that is voting Democrat. Otherwise why bow and scrape to illegals?  That was Cringe.

    Saying I never believed in American Democracy (I am sure you meant a republic with a representative democracy), well that depends.  When you let people who are retards who do not have jobs, do not contribute to the public till, and tear down statues of George Washington....well it sure seems to not be working as intended.   I like to have paid off cars.  I dont borrow money, and we buy cars used, and I drive mine (wife is more particular) till the wheels fall off.  But once the car doesnt work anymore, I get another one.  This car is broken.  Time for a new one?  Do not know yet, but if we get AOC in 2024, If I am not in another country then, I am probably making sure my scoot and shoot is on point.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 28, 2020, 09:44:52 PM
Quote from: Zirunel
So much of this seems peevish and overheated. No, the demographics don't trend well for conservatives looking forward (in the medium term), but nothing lasts forever. You want to win elections? Fight smart. Change how those demographics lean, and build a new power base. That takes time, and even when it works it won't last forever either, but you'll get a good run. Instead we get "American democracy sucks now cuz I'm not winning, imma flip the whole damn table and go off in a huff." That's the voice of people who never really believed in it in the first place.
Quote from: SHARK
Yeah, I think Conservatives need to fight smart, and reach out to different groups to explain our values, our policies and plans, and how and why they work.
Thanks, SHARK. That sounds a lot better to me than civil war.


Quote from: oggsmash;1136859
IMPEACHMENT....purely partisan IMPEACHMENT,  not a table flip?   Pushing a KNOWN BULLSHIT NARRATIVE OF RUSSIAN COLLUSION, not a table flip?  Going after people and prosecuting them for having the great sin of supporting the orange man, not a table flip?  These mother fuckers have tried their ABSOLUTE BEST to have a blood less coup.
A table flip is abandoning the rules of the game when you can't win legally. I wouldn't consider either the impeachment of Bill Clinton or the impeachment of Trump to be a table flip. It is a valid constitutional procedure. Obviously, most supporters of Clinton considered the impeachment to be unjust -- just as supporters of Trump consider his impeachment to be unjust. But that's decided by democracy and the Constitution.

In a democracy, sometimes the wrong side will win votes -- for whatever you consider wrong. But the answer to that shouldn't be to abandon democracy and pick up your guns in civil war.


Quote from: oggsmash;1136859
Since my side is no where near as good at deceptive, duplicitous, media manipulation, I think it best if my side flips the table the way we know how to.
Being deceptive, duplicitous, and media manipulation has been true of essentially *all* politicians since democracy started. The authors of the Constitution were perfectly aware that people could be deceptive and manipulative. But the only workable way to determine lie from truth is through constitutional democracy.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on June 28, 2020, 10:01:40 PM
I thought leading up to 2016 that we were seeing signs of a political realignment, maybe, tenuously.  After 2016, I thought it was about 50/50.  Now, I'm almost sure of it.  We haven't had a realignment like this since the transition from Eisenhower to Kennedy to Johnson, and possibly even that one doesn't measure up.  I don't know that we are in "death of the Whig party" territory yet, but the very definition of a political realignment is that you can't really know for sure.  What we've got is some traditional Republican constituencies moving "left" and some traditional Democrat constituencies moving "right".  Though even left and right are misleading in this realignment, I think.  

Specifically, we are seeing a significant shift of the working poor and lower middle class moving to some kind of "Trumpian nationalism" and likewise a significant shift of the upper middle class and "credentialed" white collar to an "elite globalism".  In the midst of the realignment, though, we've still got a heavy chunk of Republican globalists and at least the vestiges of Democrat blue collar (primarily in non-public union membership, though I don't have a good sense of where the rank and file really stand as their leaders have been left of the rank and file since Reagan, and the question is always "how much more left?").  

What I think makes this realignment different is that it is two different shifts happening at once.  You could argue that the bitter feud between the various members of Washington's cabinet that led directly to the founding of the parties was the only time we've had that before.  For example, the Whigs had to die out before the Republicans could take over a large chunk of their interests, which happened over 4-6 different presidents.  Likewise, the shift in the Democrats that led to Woodrow Wilson didn't  happen overnight either.  Wilson's policies were almost nothing like Grover Cleveland's.  The change under FDR/Truman seems more compact, but that was 4 presidential terms.  Maybe it is just the faster pace in the internet age.  We are probably going to see some strange temporary alliances and some surprisingly bitter internal feuds before this all shakes out.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 28, 2020, 10:11:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1136804
John Mark's analysis of civil war makes some assumptions which I feel are reaches.  Assuming the military would not be very involved or split is one I think you should not make.  There is also the reality of you do not know, what you do not know.   We honestly have no idea what extremely advanced weapons systems or the US government has to deploy in an insurrection.

      If we are talking a fight just between left voters and right voters, anywhere there is a fight right wins in a fight that looks like me beating the shit out of a 7th grader.  That is not how it will be I think.  I think if a real civil war starts, right and left lose.  A coup of sorts led by someone with alot of resources and military connections sweeps in and we get a whole new government that was not concerned with right or left, and an almost oligarchical/aristocratic structure.   This entity would wage total war and institute all kinds of "reforms" to prevent such a thing happening again.  From gun confiscation to public executions for all kinds of crimes, and they will crush any right or left spines pretty fast.


Well they left chose to riot, they left wants to cheat, the left wants to indoctrinate our children and turn us into a third world country, and look what the left did to Russia! Russia is a basket case because of the left, I hope democracy wins and we don't get flooded with stupid voters that vote away Democracy because most of them come from third World countries and they believe in impossible economics. Defund the police is a bad idea. I believe in democracy up unto the point stupid voters outnumber me and decide to vote away my rights! In that case we'll have to decide this on the battlefield and the losers will be exiled from this country so we can have a democracy again. I don't want a country full of communists with groupthink. Communists are unamerican and don't belong in this country, because it won't be America if they have their way. Live free or die!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 28, 2020, 10:15:49 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1136852
Greetings!

Yeah, I think Conservatives need to fight smart, and reach out to different groups to explain our values, our policies and plans, and how and why they work.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

To people who come from third World countries. I don't know how reasonable such people can be, 100 years of communist failures have not convinced them, and people can stubborn. There are a lot of political mad scientists running around thinking the world is their laboratory, I do not want their experiments being run in our country.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 28, 2020, 10:27:07 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136873
To people who come from third World countries. I don't know how reasonable such people can be, 100 years of communist failures have not convinced them, and people can stubborn. There are a lot of political mad scientists running around thinking the world is their laboratory, I do not want their experiments being run in our country.

From the bottom of my dark, dead and cold heart, go fuck yourself you bigot. You think people on 1st world countries are reasonable because they are from 1st world countries? I'll have you know your problems are being caused not by 3rd world people but by your fellow countrymen who are happy cranking out insane Marxist bullshit and indoctrinating your youth and exporting it to our countries to indoctrinate ours.

Like I said, go fuck yourself.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 28, 2020, 10:56:07 PM
Greetings!

Well, remember there are millions of people in Third World countries--that are very conservative. Take Latin America, for example. Lots of Mexican people are quite Conservative, and stand against tyranny, oppression, and Communism. I personally know many wonderful, Conservative Mexican-Americans that are excellent, and very loyal and patriotic. Many also proudly serve in our military, and would fight and die to keep us safe from any harm.

Politically, arggghh. Especially in California, I'm still boggled about why if you question them on say, a dozen topics--they will be almost entirely Conservative, except for immigration policies. Despite that ideological dissonance, they continue to vote for Democrats by large margins--roughly 2/3rds consistently vote Democrats, when looking at policies though, Hispanics are largely in the Conservative camp on nearly everything, except the damned immigration policies. That still means though that California is fucked, and will continue to be a growing shithole as long as Hispanic voters support the Democrats. I hope they wake the fuck up soon, because everything else that the Democrats support is absolutely oppositional to what most Hispanics love and value.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 28, 2020, 11:06:21 PM
We didn't get here by being communist, as for people born here that don't like this country, they can go to Russia and spare us the trip to communist hell.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 28, 2020, 11:35:38 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1136881
Greetings!

Well, remember there are millions of people in Third World countries--that are very conservative. Take Latin America, for example. Lots of Mexican people are quite Conservative, and stand against tyranny, oppression, and Communism. I personally know many wonderful, Conservative Mexican-Americans that are excellent, and very loyal and patriotic. Many also proudly serve in our military, and would fight and die to keep us safe from any harm.

Politically, arggghh. Especially in California, I'm still boggled about why if you question them on say, a dozen topics--they will be almost entirely Conservative, except for immigration policies. Despite that ideological dissonance, they continue to vote for Democrats by large margins--roughly 2/3rds consistently vote Democrats, when looking at policies though, Hispanics are largely in the Conservative camp on nearly everything, except the damned immigration policies. That still means though that California is fucked, and will continue to be a growing shithole as long as Hispanic voters support the Democrats. I hope they wake the fuck up soon, because everything else that the Democrats support is absolutely oppositional to what most Hispanics love and value.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yet where it matters is how they vote, they may be social conservatives, the third world has lots of social conservatives, some of the poorest countries in the world, especially in the middle east are full of social conservatives, their conservatism has to do with women having second class status, being not equal to men and being treated as the property of their nearest male relative, they don't believe in small government though, they like when the government does Robin Hood economics, also known as socialism. Mistreating women does not help people rise out of third world poverty. Social conservatism has little to say about respecting private property, keeping taxes low and governments small.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 28, 2020, 11:36:43 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1136870
.

In a democracy, sometimes the wrong side will win votes -- for whatever you consider wrong. But the answer to that shouldn't be to abandon democracy and pick up your guns in civil war.



Being deceptive, duplicitous, and media manipulation has been true of essentially *all* politicians since democracy started. The authors of the Constitution were perfectly aware that people could be deceptive and manipulative. But the only workable way to determine lie from truth is through constitutional democracy.

   I am not a politician.   I have also been on the wrong side of two impeachments (I voted for Clinton, and trump).  Clinton could have simply said he shot his load on the girl, and his impeachment would have never happened.  Of course he would never have been in trouble had he not been such an abuser.  Trump, got impeached over hearsay in a phone call.   Significantly different.  I would also say, the constitution also has a 2nd amendment.  Written in by people who had just rebelled.  So your points are ahistoric.  Rebellion is literally written into the constitution.  Founding fathers would in fact call our government tyrannical (both parties) at this point in history.  Democracy is often two wolves and a sheep voting for dinner.   Was it plato who said masculine republics give way to feminine democracies which fall to tyrannical dictators.  Or some such.  Either way,  not interested in what is being sold.   I would be careful trying to use the constitution to redress grievances, as they have some VERY extreme measures written right in the document.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 28, 2020, 11:37:15 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136886
Yet where it matters is how they vote, they may be social conservatives, the third world has lots of social conservatives, some of the poorest countries in the world, especially in the middle east are full of social conservatives, their conservatism has to do with women having second class status, being not equal to men and being treated as the property of their nearest male relative, they don't believe in small government though, they like when the government does Robin Hood economics, also known as socialism. Mistreating women does not help people rise out of third world poverty. Social conservatism has little to say about respecting private property, keeping taxes low and governments small.

Like I said, go fuck yourself you bigot.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 28, 2020, 11:56:41 PM
Since we are concerned with constitutional remedy, and seem to have so much weight buried in what those dead white guys had to say, I would add this as well:  The founding fathers NEVER fore saw a day where a LARGE part of the electorate would be people who have no jobs, collect money from government dole, Do not even feed their own children by their own hand.   They specifically felt this was never to be the case.  Yet, after corrupting the idea of what a responsible citizen is supposed to be as a voter, and making that anyone with a pulse and no felony convictions (which is arguable since actual id is not necessary for voting) and 18 or older is good to go.....well now we have all kinds of stupid bullshit going on.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 29, 2020, 12:18:36 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1136875
From the bottom of my dark, dead and cold heart, go fuck yourself you bigot. You think people on 1st world countries are reasonable because they are from 1st world countries? I'll have you know your problems are being caused not by 3rd world people but by your fellow countrymen who are happy cranking out insane Marxist bullshit and indoctrinating your youth and exporting it to our countries to indoctrinate ours.

Like I said, go fuck yourself.

  I think you are likely right about exporting the socialism (but most places got it from the USSR and their cronies back when they were putting it everywhere they could) in the modern day.  I think he made his point clumsily, but people who become voters, and their children who are born in the USA who hail from developing nations do vote left about 66 percent of the time.  Now if this is the case after 4 or 5 generations, I can not say.   People who have roots from those places seem much more comfortable with big government, strict gun control, and some limits to freedom of speech, at least statistically, who come here.   What percentage of the electorate in Mexico falls on the Conservative side?  I saw an interview, I think on Rogan once that said around 40 plus percent fall on that side of the line, and there are states that are much more conservative, but I have no idea.  I am guessing maybe the people going to the USA today as immigrants may be quite different than the people who came 30-40 years ago. I have no idea.  I just know how the people's kids now poll.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 29, 2020, 01:19:37 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1136881
I personally know many wonderful, Conservative Mexican-Americans that are excellent, and very loyal and patriotic. Many also proudly serve in our military, and would fight and die to keep us safe from any harm.

Politically, arggghh. Especially in California, I'm still boggled about why if you question them on say, a dozen topics--they will be almost entirely Conservative, except for immigration policies. Despite that ideological dissonance, they continue to vote for Democrats by large margins--roughly 2/3rds consistently vote Democrats, when looking at policies though, Hispanics are largely in the Conservative camp on nearly everything, except the damned immigration policies.
I think we see the dynamic right here in this thread. Many Latinos have the perception that they're not welcomed by the Republican party, from those like John Mark who want to form a true America with a white supermajority. The issue of immigration as well as feeling welcomed matter a lot more to them than side issues like gay marriage.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus
Yet where it matters is how they vote, they may be social conservatives, the third world has lots of social conservatives, some of the poorest countries in the world, especially in the middle east are full of social conservatives, their conservatism has to do with women having second class status, being not equal to men and being treated as the property of their nearest male relative, they don't believe in small government though, they like when the government does Robin Hood economics, also known as socialism. Mistreating women does not help people rise out of third world poverty. Social conservatism has little to say about respecting private property, keeping taxes low and governments small.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1136888
Like I said, go fuck yourself you bigot.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't mean to imply that GeekyBugle would vote Democrat -- but these sort of exchanges contribute to the bias in Mexican-American voters who are less deeply conservative.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: moonsweeper on June 29, 2020, 01:35:36 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1136890
Since we are concerned with constitutional remedy, and seem to have so much weight buried in what those dead white guys had to say, I would add this as well:  The founding fathers NEVER fore saw a day where a LARGE part of the electorate would be people who have no jobs, collect money from government dole, Do not even feed their own children by their own hand.   They specifically felt this was never to be the case.  Yet, after corrupting the idea of what a responsible citizen is supposed to be as a voter, and making that anyone with a pulse and no felony convictions (which is arguable since actual id is not necessary for voting) and 18 or older is good to go.....well now we have all kinds of stupid bullshit going on.



"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." :D
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 29, 2020, 08:45:21 AM
John Mark is damn sure not a republican.   I guess we barely missed people getting shot in St Louis.  One big trigger and SHTF.  It did make me LOL at Karen and Ron Swanson out on the lawn talking shit to a mob of tresspassers.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on June 29, 2020, 09:01:02 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1136917
John Mark is damn sure not a republican.

That's ok.  There are a bunch of republicans who aren't, either.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 29, 2020, 09:07:37 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1136919
That's ok.  There are a bunch of republicans who aren't, either.

  John is a propertarian, and that is a good deal more to the right than republicans.  But I agree, plenty of "republicans" are just there to date male prostitutes and live a lavish life style, and do not give a flip about any right leaning policy.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 29, 2020, 09:44:31 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1136893
I think you are likely right about exporting the socialism (but most places got it from the USSR and their cronies back when they were putting it everywhere they could) in the modern day.  I think he made his point clumsily, but people who become voters, and their children who are born in the USA who hail from developing nations do vote left about 66 percent of the time.  Now if this is the case after 4 or 5 generations, I can not say.   People who have roots from those places seem much more comfortable with big government, strict gun control, and some limits to freedom of speech, at least statistically, who come here.   What percentage of the electorate in Mexico falls on the Conservative side?  I saw an interview, I think on Rogan once that said around 40 plus percent fall on that side of the line, and there are states that are much more conservative, but I have no idea.  I am guessing maybe the people going to the USA today as immigrants may be quite different than the people who came 30-40 years ago. I have no idea.  I just know how the people's kids now poll.

All I know is I don't want to live in a third world country, and I don't want my country becoming one. I have nothing against Latin Americans, but their countries have made wrong choices in the past and that is one of the reasons why they are poorer than the United States. They say workers from south of the border do work that white people are unwilling to do. Well if their cheap labor is so important, they can do it in their own native countries and we can import their products without them voting in US elections. Why do illegal Latin Americans have to sneak across the border to pick fruits and vegetables in the United States, when they can stay in their native countries and do it legally and we can import those fruits and vegetables from those countries in which they live? If American farmers can't afford to pay legal wages to American citizens, maybe they shouldn't be in business in the first place.

The thing is, I'm a Republican, and Republicans led a very unpeaceful war to prevent the United States from breaking up, I don't think I would support the peaceful breakup of the United States. The US does have some non-state territories I wouldn't mind parting with, but I don't want any states leaving the Union. Puerto Rico is a convenient lifeboat for putting American Marxist radicals on before granting them independence, that is assuming no other third world countries would be willing to accept them.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 29, 2020, 10:11:45 AM
You mean a country where the Politics and mob determine which laws are or are not enforced?  Like charging a guy with process crimes that we later learn are completely bogus, and a judge takes it upon himself to not dismiss charges when ordered to?   You mean a country where a bunch of shit birds block off part of a city and demand police may not enter their zone?  You mean a country where a police officer who shoots a suspect while operating RIGHT DOWN THE LINE with respect to escalation of force gets charged with Capital Murder?

    I have got some bad news for you, you are already living in a nation that is functioning as a third world country on some levels.  I get that lefties do not really mind these things.  Same as it ever was they say.  I also get that a republican would be aghast at current events, especially as they watch republicans in DC sit around with their thumbs in their asses silent.  

   I think it may not come to crazy level, but some action needs taking.  Problems with who votes and allowing so many things to change the electorate of the country are a bit late to be of concern now I think.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 29, 2020, 02:43:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1136931
You mean a country where the Politics and mob determine which laws are or are not enforced?  Like charging a guy with process crimes that we later learn are completely bogus, and a judge takes it upon himself to not dismiss charges when ordered to?   You mean a country where a bunch of shit birds block off part of a city and demand police may not enter their zone?  You mean a country where a police officer who shoots a suspect while operating RIGHT DOWN THE LINE with respect to escalation of force gets charged with Capital Murder?

    I have got some bad news for you, you are already living in a nation that is functioning as a third world country on some levels.  I get that lefties do not really mind these things.  Same as it ever was they say.  I also get that a republican would be aghast at current events, especially as they watch republicans in DC sit around with their thumbs in their asses silent.  

   I think it may not come to crazy level, but some action needs taking.  Problems with who votes and allowing so many things to change the electorate of the country are a bit late to be of concern now I think.

The choices are simple:
1) We can let the left take over when they obtain a majority, and then through elections, we get a leader like Hugo Chavez who will then arrest their political opponents or even execute them. I've heard of democratically elected dictators before, Hugo Chavez was one of them, they overthrow they system after they get elected, maybe some of the people who had voted for him might have regretted that vote, but it's too late, he is in power, and once he is in power, it is too late to take that vote which put him in power. The other choice is 2.

2) There are plenty of people in the US military do do not like communist or left-wingers, they did not join the military to serve some dictator, it is an all volunteer force, so the people there chose to be there like to serve and are patriotic citizens for the most part. The lesson of Venezuela is this, a potential tyrant and dictator can be democratically elected by a misinformed electorate, he can follow all the rules and technically not cheat in getting elected, but he is still a threat to freedom, at some point the military may decide to stop following and stage a military coup, overthrow this would be tyrant that got elected before he consolidates his power. Hopefully the general that takes over is a patriot and will restore democracy at some point in the future.

A military dictatorship is not a good thing, and it would be a bad thing to happen to the United States, but in my opinion it would be the lesser of two evils when compared to a communist takeover of the United States. I hope this doesn't have to happen, I'd much rather the American people wise up and not elect radical leftists that threaten our freedom, but sometimes you don't have any good choices, so I'd pick the one that I regard as less evil. I hope it doesn't come to that! At this point the radical Marxists can be put on the island of Puerto Rico, whether they wish to go there or not, then Puerto Rico can be given its independence. All people living on it at the time of independence would lose their American citizenship and become Puerto Rican citizens, then when all the radical Marxists are removed it would be safe to restore democracy.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 29, 2020, 03:03:25 PM
I agree that a military coup is preferable to communist dictator.  Bad news is ALOT of the brass in the military has no issues with communist dictatorships.  Hell, the military runs as a communist dictatorship, complete with using other peoples money to fund shennanigans.   I have no idea how much of the ranks would break under that sort of pressure and swap sides.  But I do know the top Brass has no problems with leftism.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 29, 2020, 06:34:51 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1136972
I agree that a military coup is preferable to communist dictator.  Bad news is ALOT of the brass in the military has no issues with communist dictatorships.  Hell, the military runs as a communist dictatorship, complete with using other peoples money to fund shennanigans.   I have no idea how much of the ranks would break under that sort of pressure and swap sides.  But I do know the top Brass has no problems with leftism.

Have you been to the Vietnam War memorial in Washington DC? All the names on that wall is a list of about 52,000 US service members ers that were killed by Communists! I think if most US servicemembers were Communists, we'd be in a communist dictatorship already, I think they are not. Put yourself in the shoes of a young recruit, are you going to join the US Army if you hate America? Why not join the Cuban Army instead? You could join the Iranian Army if you are a flag burning America hater.

No I think 90% of US soldiers are Patriots, I don't know about the top brass, but generals can't fight a war all by themselves. We might have a ground up military coup instead of a top down one. After all, Obama had not control over who joined during his 8 years. If communists win, we would need to start a resistance that the common soldier would sympathize with, after all the Democrats have made a habit of sympathizing with those who were shooting at them in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq excetera, the top brass Obama generals weren't the once out there bleeding like the common soldier was, and we have almost 4 years of Trump generals. I think the military will oppose the Communists because of history of communists trying to kill them for the past 100 years!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 29, 2020, 07:49:44 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1136971
The choices are simple:
1) We can let the left take over when they obtain a majority, and then through elections, we get a leader like Hugo Chavez who will then arrest their political opponents or even execute them. I've heard of democratically elected dictators before, Hugo Chavez was one of them, they overthrow they system after they get elected, maybe some of the people who had voted for him might have regretted that vote, but it's too late, he is in power, and once he is in power, it is too late to take that vote which put him in power. The other choice is 2.

2) There are plenty of people in the US military do do not like communist or left-wingers, they did not join the military to serve some dictator, it is an all volunteer force, so the people there chose to be there like to serve and are patriotic citizens for the most part. The lesson of Venezuela is this, a potential tyrant and dictator can be democratically elected by a misinformed electorate, he can follow all the rules and technically not cheat in getting elected, but he is still a threat to freedom, at some point the military may decide to stop following and stage a military coup, overthrow this would be tyrant that got elected before he consolidates his power. Hopefully the general that takes over is a patriot and will restore democracy at some point in the future.

A military dictatorship is not a good thing, and it would be a bad thing to happen to the United States, but in my opinion it would be the lesser of two evils when compared to a communist takeover of the United States.

It sounds like you're saying that if a leftist president is elected by a majority of the voters, then the military should seize power in a coup before they can get into office. That is, enact the coup *before* they do anything unconstitutional like arrest their political opponents, because it's too dangerous to allow a leftist to be president. Is that actually what you're saying?

In my father's country of South Korea, that's happened multiple times -- like in 1980 with the coup by Chun Doo-hwan. That was a right-wing authoritarian rule, like Pinochet and other right-wing dictators. I visited Korea as a child during Chun Doo-hwan's rule, and remember seeing the massed police heading out to suppress student protests.

I think it's a bad idea, and I do not believe that it was necessary in order to prevent left-wing rule. There are both left-wing and right-wing democracies, and there are both left-wing and right-wing authoritarian states. Most of Europe is left-wing compared to the U.S., for example, but are not authoritarian states like Chavez. The simple answer is: follow the rule of democracy.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 29, 2020, 08:28:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1137044
It sounds like you're saying that if a leftist president is elected by a majority of the voters, then the military should seize power in a coup before they can get into office. That is, enact the coup *before* they do anything unconstitutional like arrest their political opponents, because it's too dangerous to allow a leftist to be president. Is that actually what you're saying?

In my father's country of South Korea, that's happened multiple times -- like in 1980 with the coup by Chun Doo-hwan. That was a right-wing authoritarian rule, like Pinochet and other right-wing dictators. I visited Korea as a child during Chun Doo-hwan's rule, and remember seeing the massed police heading out to suppress student protests.

I think it's a bad idea, and I do not believe that it was necessary in order to prevent left-wing rule. There are both left-wing and right-wing democracies, and there are both left-wing and right-wing authoritarian states. Most of Europe is left-wing compared to the U.S., for example, but are not authoritarian states like Chavez. The simple answer is: follow the rule of democracy.

Greetings!

Right, Jhkim. Democracy. However, the Marxists have been seizing the machinery that controls the "Democracy". The Leftist politicians--the Democrats--have already admitted to how they are going to change the entire system to ensure Leftist political rule in America. Ever heard of their desire to get rid of the Electoral College? How about mass "Mail in Voting"? Both such measures and MORE--are precisely designed to secure political power for Leftists--and in that process, kill our democracy.

"Voting" will be entirely irrelevant, and merely a charade.

THAT kind of bullshit is worth fighting against--and if pressed, you damned bet such oppressive corruption from the Marxists will provoke Conservatives to resist with violence.

I saw a New York Times article--written by a Liberal journalist--back in 2012, where their own Liberal research showed that mass "Mail In Voting" was entirely debased with fraud and corruption. Such are reasons why by law we only allow members of the military, overseas citizens, and some other limited special cases to qualify for mail in voting.

The cock-sucking Marxists Liberals want to change all of that, Jhkim. Making such corrupt changes to our system will bring an end to our genuine democracy and make it into a fucking charade.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 29, 2020, 08:46:08 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1137044
It sounds like you're saying that if a leftist president is elected by a majority of the voters, then the military should seize power in a coup before they can get into office. That is, enact the coup *before* they do anything unconstitutional like arrest their political opponents, because it's too dangerous to allow a leftist to be president. Is that actually what you're saying?

In my father's country of South Korea, that's happened multiple times -- like in 1980 with the coup by Chun Doo-hwan. That was a right-wing authoritarian rule, like Pinochet and other right-wing dictators. I visited Korea as a child during Chun Doo-hwan's rule, and remember seeing the massed police heading out to suppress student protests.

I think it's a bad idea, and I do not believe that it was necessary in order to prevent left-wing rule. There are both left-wing and right-wing democracies, and there are both left-wing and right-wing authoritarian states. Most of Europe is left-wing compared to the U.S., for example, but are not authoritarian states like Chavez. The simple answer is: follow the rule of democracy.

The Venezuelans did and they are starving today, they used to be the richest country in South America! Look at your country, it is split in two, the Koreans in the north are slaves. You lost half your country and have not got it back yet. And there are left wing Koreans that want to take over South Korea like the left wing took over South Vietnam. I notice that South Korea got over it's right wing dictators and is now a functioning democracy and North Korea is not. The examples of North and South Korea illustrate the dangers of left-wing dictatorships however they come to power, you can vote them into office or they can stage a revolution, it doesn't matter how they get there because they will always do the same thing. Do you want to unite Korea and live there as a slave to the government, are you willing to pay that price for unification under a communist "king?" The right wing dictators of South Korea were short lived and led to the democracy South Korea enjoys today.

In Europe, the big authoritarian state is Russia, I don't want the United States to end up like Russia under Putin Communism led to Putin, the Russians overthrew their communist government in 1991, but their state was so crippled by 72 years of Communism that it fell back into dictatorship when Putin took over in 2000! Compare Russia to Germany, Germany had the Nazis and the East German Communist state, the Germans are doing much better today than Russia is, I'd say there is less risk with right wing dictatorships than left wing ones. All the left wingers do is lie and spread propaganda, impeach the president for imagined offenses, and then lie some more and promise to defund the police because of one bad cop and then let criminals rule the streets. I saw the television show Gotham, and I don't want to live in a city like that!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shasarak on June 29, 2020, 08:56:28 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1137044
It sounds like you're saying that if a leftist president is elected by a majority of the voters, then the military should seize power in a coup before they can get into office. That is, enact the coup *before* they do anything unconstitutional like arrest their political opponents, because it's too dangerous to allow a leftist to be president. Is that actually what you're saying?


Does it have to be the Military?  Why not just unleash the FBI on your political opponents like a normal country?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DELETE THIS on June 29, 2020, 09:18:28 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1137051
Does it have to be the Military?  Why not just unleash the FBI on your political opponents like a normal country?


Better yet, collude with other foreign intelligence agencies to set up people in the opponent's campaign to justify illegally spying on them because you're about to lose billions of dollars in kickbacks from a Ukrainian energy scam.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 29, 2020, 10:36:30 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137048
The examples of North and South Korea illustrate the dangers of left-wing dictatorships however they come to power, you can vote them into office or they can stage a revolution, it doesn't matter how they get there because they will always do the same thing. Do you want to unite Korea and live there as a slave to the government, are you willing to pay that price for unification under a communist "king?" The right wing dictators of South Korea were short lived and led to the democracy South Korea enjoys today.

This doesn't even make any sense. North Korea and South Korea are vastly different. In the South, a left-wing government is currently in power as a result of having free elections, since the revolution around 1990. In the North, there is a repressive authoritarian regime that has enforced its rule by the military. Allowing those elections does *not* have the same result as a repressive regime.

In Chile, or Nicaragua, or Argentina and other countries with repressive right-wing regimes -- the result was not hearts and flowers. It was suffering that the countries had to climb their way out of.

Freedom and democracy are good -- authoritarian regimes are bad. The military should respect the result of free elections. I don't think this is a radical position.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 30, 2020, 12:04:18 AM
So you are saying that a military coup against Hitler would have been wrong and that the German generals should have respected it even though that respect resulted in the deaths of six million Jews and world war II? A military coup could have prevented it.

The Democrats tried to stage a coup against Donald Trump, so it was they who would not respect democracy, they are the ones that tried to have an "insurance policy" against Trump winning. So what if the Democrats use their "bag of tricks" to win an election by cheating with mail-in ballots of illegal aliens and outright fraudulent ballots? What if Trump were to take out an "insurance policy" against them? And now they are trying to create a series of disasters, to get Trump to lose the next election, including violence in the cities, and a virus originating in China.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on June 30, 2020, 12:48:59 AM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137090
So you are saying that a military coup against Hitler would have been wrong and that the German generals should have respected it even though that respect resulted in the deaths of six million Jews and world war II? A military coup could have prevented it.
Rule by hypothetical benevolent military dictators could have solved *all* the world's problems, not just World War II. A coup could have freed the slaves in America, freed the Russian peasants, and brought peace and unity to China.

But in the non-hypothetical world, the track record of actual military coups is quite different. Military coups generally make things worse, not better -- especially because they have to suppress the will of the people that they're overriding.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 30, 2020, 01:06:38 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1137099
Rule by hypothetical benevolent military dictators could have solved *all* the world's problems, not just World War II. A coup could have freed the slaves in America, freed the Russian peasants, and brought peace and unity to China.

But in the non-hypothetical world, the track record of actual military coups is quite different. Military coups generally make things worse, not better -- especially because they have to suppress the will of the people that they're overriding.

What do you think of Julius Caesar then? He was essentially a coup leader who overthrew the Roman Republic? Was the Roman Empire better or worse than the Roman Republic? Also when you result is low, then sometimes another die roll would be beneficial. I would be willing to risk another die roll on Germany in 1932, as the results could hardly be worse than Hitler, just read his book Mein Kamf, anyone who read it would realize his taking power would have been a bad thing, and being the result of a legitimate election doesn't make him good.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: crkrueger on June 30, 2020, 01:53:03 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1136898
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." :D


Or until corporations can bribe Congress with the public's money. :D
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on June 30, 2020, 06:30:15 AM
Greetings!

Dan Bongino discusses the chaos and citizens defending themselves. There is a live recording of a woman in her car with her child, in Fredericksburg, Virginia, being mobbed by BLM thugs. She calls 911, and the dispatcher tells the fearful woman that "There's nothing we can do." In addition, Oklahoma has BLM thugs arrested and charged as terrorists, telling the thugs that "This isn't Seattle.":D A very good program! Dan Bongino is a former NYC police officer, and a Federal Agent as a member of the Secret Service.



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 30, 2020, 08:03:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1137099
Rule by hypothetical benevolent military dictators could have solved *all* the world's problems, not just World War II. A coup could have freed the slaves in America, freed the Russian peasants, and brought peace and unity to China.

But in the non-hypothetical world, the track record of actual military coups is quite different. Military coups generally make things worse, not better -- especially because they have to suppress the will of the people that they're overriding.

Let's put is rpg terms as an analogy, suppose you are rolling up a character, that you want to be a fighter, you roll 4d6 taking the best 3 and still you have a strength score of 3, do you roll again of do you go with that score? There is hardly a worse outcome than a leftist dictatorship, because that dictatorship, once in power, won't give you another chance to run against him!

The left already controls most of the media, so already the election isn't fair towards Republicans, so I, as a Republican, can't trust the media to be fair and impartial, why should I accept the result of an unfair election covered by a blatantly biased media that doesn't go my way? Don't the Democrats have a saying, "No justice, no peace?" Republicans are fighting an uphill battle against "Pajama boy" Joe Biden who won't even campaign, yet the media is keeping him up in their polls. I have never seen a weaker candidate than Joe Biden, even Jimmy Carter wasn't this weak. The Democrats aren't relying on the strength of their candidate, they don't think they have to, they are relying on the bias of the media to get Joe Biden elected, and if they have to stuff ballot boxes, they are going to rely on the media media not to cover those voting irregularities. We have, what I call, a Soviet media today in the United States, the left has slowly taken over our Universities to indoctrinate kids to hate the USA, and they have slowly taken over most of the media, so it's now like the Soviet media. So a democracy where mostly biased information is flowing the the people when they have to decide who to vote for, isn't fair.

The first amendment is based an the assumption of a free and fair media, but it isn't fair, one of the conditions required for democracy doesn't really exist and that is a free and fair media, we have to fix this or we will end up under a dictatorship, one way or another, it may stage phony elections for legitimacy like Fidel Castro, but it won't be a democracy, and it might not be the dictatorship that you want. The leftwing helped destabilize Germany in the 1930s and gave the Germans a choice between two kinds of dictatorships, one by the communists and the other by the Nazis, they chose the Nazis! The Communists help make a Nazi victory possible by undermining German democracy with their activities, and the left is today doing the same in the United States with their "defund the police" campaign. I don't like the choices the Democrats are attempting to give me, I'd rather have a moderate Democrat party, not a "defund the police" Democratic Party. I want to feel that I would be safe if the Democrats win, but I don't!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 30, 2020, 08:20:22 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1137132
Greetings!

Dan Bongino discusses the chaos and citizens defending themselves. There is a live recording of a woman in her car with her child, in Fredericksburg, Virginia, being mobbed by BLM thugs. She calls 911, and the dispatcher tells the fearful woman that "There's nothing we can do." In addition, Oklahoma has BLM thugs arrested and charged as terrorists, telling the thugs that "This isn't Seattle.":D A very good program! Dan Bongino is a former NYC police officer, and a Federal Agent as a member of the Secret Service.



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

We need a more moderate opposition to the Republican party than the Democrats, they aren't safe anymore when they advocate defunding the police, that is the equivalent to advocating mob rule. Without police to enforce them, laws passed by the legislature don't mean anything, instead we will have mob law and mob rule, we will be forced to pay "taxes," otherwise known as protection money to the mob to prevent "unfortunate" things from happening to us, we will lose our freedom of speech due to the code of silence. There is a segment of the Democratic party that loves crime for some reason, the murder rate is going up in New York City, and that is part of the crime cycle. The crime cycle exists because a certain segment of the Democratic party wants more crime, because crime is how they earn a living, when police try to combat this crime, the Democrats use the tactic of calling it racist and find one or two bad cops to cast aspersions on the rest, so cops stop enforcing the law, and the democrats criminal constituents can prey upon the people for a living.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 30, 2020, 09:01:24 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1137044
It sounds like you're saying that if a leftist president is elected by a majority of the voters, then the military should seize power in a coup before they can get into office. That is, enact the coup *before* they do anything unconstitutional like arrest their political opponents, because it's too dangerous to allow a leftist to be president. Is that actually what you're saying?

In my father's country of South Korea, that's happened multiple times -- like in 1980 with the coup by Chun Doo-hwan. That was a right-wing authoritarian rule, like Pinochet and other right-wing dictators. I visited Korea as a child during Chun Doo-hwan's rule, and remember seeing the massed police heading out to suppress student protests.

I think it's a bad idea, and I do not believe that it was necessary in order to prevent left-wing rule. There are both left-wing and right-wing democracies, and there are both left-wing and right-wing authoritarian states. Most of Europe is left-wing compared to the U.S., for example, but are not authoritarian states like Chavez. The simple answer is: follow the rule of democracy.


  Which countries in Europe have the first amendment?   The second?  GTFO with that talk.   Just because you do not black bag dissent in no way means I want to live that way.  The Leftist we are talking are not liberal and are fueled by critical theory.  They have NO PLAN to be liberal (AS IN LIBERTY) at all.   This shit rising is not equality for everyone and hear everyone's voice. I have no issue with a left leaning government.  BUT raging SJW/critical theory fueled ideology?  Fuck off.   These ass holes drug the window so far left, left of center now is endorsing reparations, and removing qualified immunity,  Most people are ignorant of what that means.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 30, 2020, 09:11:02 AM
We should accept the will of voters in elections.... Well we keep lowering the bar as to who can vote.  In california no need to even be a citizen in some local elections now, but we have to accept it.   18 year olds almost all who have done naught but absorb money from parents or taxes should vote?  People who have NEVER EVER been net tax payers their entire lives should vote?  People who are mentally handicapped should vote?   Now we want to push to allows felons to vote?  Lets bring as many people in from outside the country who we KNOW FOR SURE from statistical analysis will vote the way we want?  We have to accept the will of the voters.

     Sorry, democracy is NOT the intent of the founding fathers, never was, ever their intent.   And yes, when you feel the government has turned to a point it will become tyrannical to you, it is your absolute duty to stop that .  If I was a leftie, especially if I was WAAAAAY over influenced by Critical Theory platforms I am sure I would see it much differently.   But I am not.  I was a middle of the road libertarian, who over the past 20 years who with few ideological changes is fringing on the alt right now.  GTFO with that nonsense.   I can not come to common ground with people who have a stated goal of getting rid of me and people who think like I do.  I can however set some clear boundaries, and once we all have good fences, we can maybe be good neighbors.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DELETE THIS on June 30, 2020, 09:44:41 AM
JhKim is a smart guy who still thinks the Democrats are JFK voters. Get with the fucking program, son. The Marxists have turned the DNC into nothing more than a slush fund for their oppressive programs under the guise of "reform". After they've assumed complete control, guys like him will be the first to the guillotines. It's like history repeats itself or something...no wonder they're trying to erase it.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 30, 2020, 12:20:36 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1137159
We should accept the will of voters in elections.... Well we keep lowering the bar as to who can vote.  In california no need to even be a citizen in some local elections now, but we have to accept it.   18 year olds almost all who have done naught but absorb money from parents or taxes should vote?  People who have NEVER EVER been net tax payers their entire lives should vote?  People who are mentally handicapped should vote?   Now we want to push to allows felons to vote?  Lets bring as many people in from outside the country who we KNOW FOR SURE from statistical analysis will vote the way we want?  We have to accept the will of the voters.

     Sorry, democracy is NOT the intent of the founding fathers, never was, ever their intent.   And yes, when you feel the government has turned to a point it will become tyrannical to you, it is your absolute duty to stop that .  If I was a leftie, especially if I was WAAAAAY over influenced by Critical Theory platforms I am sure I would see it much differently.   But I am not.  I was a middle of the road libertarian, who over the past 20 years who with few ideological changes is fringing on the alt right now.  GTFO with that nonsense.   I can not come to common ground with people who have a stated goal of getting rid of me and people who think like I do.  I can however set some clear boundaries, and once we all have good fences, we can maybe be good neighbors.

If it is the will of the majority that I and my family should go into a concentration camp, then I am not fine with that and I will not respect the will of the majority that wants to do that to me. Majority rule has its limits! If the majority wants communism, then I'm fine with an undemocratic form of government that protects property rights and does not give them what they want. So long as people are reasonable then I am willing to accept majority rule, if the majority has been brainwashed to persecute people they disagree with, then democracy goes out the window. I do not gain anything by letting democracy happen when people are voting to give up their individual rights and mine too along with those. Human beings are endowed with certain inalienable rights, so if people are brainwashed to give up their rights, then they should not be respected! This happened in Egypt recently, they had an election and people voted to give up their rights, and so the military took over again. I guess Egypt is just not ready for democracy, as they vote Islamist into power as soon as they get a chance. Certain places do not have a moral majority.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on June 30, 2020, 05:58:42 PM
Well, given the Democrat twitter page tweeted out that having a July 4th celebration at Mt Rushmore is a "celebration of white supremacy" I think anyone feeling like they are anything but crazy as shit house rats is just lying to themselves.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on June 30, 2020, 07:31:41 PM
Shark once mentioned that liberals view political violence as a dial they can turn from low to high whereas conservatives view violence as an on/off switch and once turned on, blood will flow relentlessly. I've been seeing a few memes with similar themes popping up lately. It makes me wonder what the actual stomach for violence exists among conservatives. The GOP politicians have shown themselves to be abject cowards, but I wonder about the rank and file.

What can the Democrats field in a civil war?

Will the military industrial complex support or crush the boogaloo?  

And how would a civil war NOT collapse into a racial war instead?

Serious questions.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on June 30, 2020, 10:19:16 PM
Some Democrats justified the riots by saying that America was built on violence, so I guess violence works both ways, and they wouldn't mind US Army tanks in the streets to put down their riots, after all America was built on violence. The US military can dish out violence too.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 01, 2020, 12:45:32 AM
Greetings!

Tim Pool discusses here how a BLM thug in Provo, Utah, shot a 70 year old man that was driving on the street nearby! Just pulled out a gun and shot an innocent man!

"Peaceful protestors" my ass!



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 01, 2020, 12:38:01 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1137329
Greetings!

Tim Pool discusses here how a BLM thug in Provo, Utah, shot a 70 year old man that was driving on the street nearby! Just pulled out a gun and shot an innocent man!

"Peaceful protestors" my ass!



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The mayor of NYC should be recalled, people have died in his campaign to get rid of Trump, he doesn't want to police New York streets because he wants New Yorkers to suffer and blame Donald Trump for their suffering!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 01, 2020, 01:57:00 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137149
There is a segment of the Democratic party that loves crime for some reason, the murder rate is going up in New York City, and that is part of the crime cycle. The crime cycle exists because a certain segment of the Democratic party wants more crime, because crime is how they earn a living, when police try to combat this crime, the Democrats use the tactic of calling it racist and find one or two bad cops to cast aspersions on the rest, so cops stop enforcing the law, and the democrats criminal constituents can prey upon the people for a living.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137399
The mayor of NYC should be recalled, people have died in his campaign to get rid of Trump, he doesn't want to police New York streets because he wants New Yorkers to suffer and blame Donald Trump for their suffering!

This doesn't even make sense. New York City crime is at the lowest level in decades. It's been ranked one of the safest cities in the world now. The crime rate has continued to decline under both Bloomberg and De Blasio. I lived in New York City from 1991 to 1993, and it sucked. The crime rate is vastly better now.

I can understand disagreement about *why* the crime rate has decreased, but it has unquestionably decreased by a huge amount.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4630[/ATTACH]
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 01, 2020, 02:16:32 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1137427
This doesn't even make sense. New York City crime is at the lowest level in decades. It's been ranked one of the safest cities in the world now. The crime rate has continued to decline under both Bloomberg and De Blasio. I lived in New York City from 1991 to 1993, and it sucked. The crime rate is vastly better now.

I can understand disagreement about *why* the crime rate has decreased, but it has unquestionably decreased by a huge amount.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4630[/ATTACH]
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City

So you are not counting the riots over George Floyd, and the fact that he wants to take one billion dollars out of NYPD funding. Democrats want the crime rate to increase! They want thugs and gangs rolling the streets. Diblasio is a mayor Al Capone could vote for!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 01, 2020, 02:22:21 PM
Other than murders and shootings up by 25 percent so far this year, deblasio is doing a great job.   There is ZERO DEBATE as to why crime rates are better in NYC.  Gulianni and then MR BIG SODA COP kept some policies that dropped it like a rock.  Or are we going to pretend that didnt happen?

  At least commie in charge had the good sense to break that CHAZ up over near city hall.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 01, 2020, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1137432
Other than murders and shootings up by 25 percent so far this year, deblasio is doing a great job.   There is ZERO DEBATE as to why crime rates are better in NYC.  Gulianni and then MR BIG SODA COP kept some policies that dropped it like a rock.  Or are we going to pretend that didnt happen?

  At least commie in charge had the good sense to break that CHAZ up over near city hall.
I haven't looked at the incomplete 2020 data so far. But the 2019 murder rate is down 5% compared to when De Blasio took office in 2014. That's not much of an improvement, but it's maintaining a low level. In absolute terms, New York City now has a much lower murder rate per capita than the biggest cities in Texas, for example.

Dallas: 12.48 per 100K
Houston: 11.50 per 100K
San Antonio: 8.15 per 100K
New York: 3.39 per 100K

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 01, 2020, 03:41:54 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1137437
I haven't looked at the incomplete 2020 data so far. But the 2019 murder rate is down 5% compared to when De Blasio took office in 2014. That's not much of an improvement, but it's maintaining a low level. In absolute terms, New York City now has a much lower murder rate per capita than the biggest cities in Texas, for example.

Dallas: 12.48 per 100K
Houston: 11.50 per 100K
San Antonio: 8.15 per 100K
New York: 3.39 per 100K

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

  Ok, so some other democrat/progressive mayors have higher murder rates than NYC?  I am not that shocked.  But Diblasio is working on changing that, a thing anyone glancing at the news (even CNN is reporting the 25% uptick.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 01, 2020, 03:50:31 PM
Chart is 2017 isnt it?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 01, 2020, 05:19:49 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1137439
Ok, so some other democrat/progressive mayors have higher murder rates than NYC?  I am not that shocked.  But Diblasio is working on changing that, a thing anyone glancing at the news (even CNN is reporting the 25% uptick.
Quote from: oggsmash;1137441
Chart is 2017 isnt it?
The graphic I posted only goes up to 2017, but the link has tabular data going up to 2019. I believe that there's been a recent uptick, but De Blasio has been mayor for 6 years, and over most of that time, the crime rate has slightly decreased.

For reference, below are the murder rates from cities with Republican mayors. Most of them have higher rates than New York City, and with much smaller populations.

Tulsa (Pop 0.40M): 17.29
Oklahoma City (Pop 0.65M): 12.49
Jacksonville (Pop 0.89M): 12.18
Miami (Pop 0.46M): 11.23
Fresno (Pop 0.53M): 10.64
Fort Worth (Pop 0.87M): 8.02
Omaha (Pop 0.45M): 6.90
Colorado Springs (Pop 0.47M): 6.13
Mesa (Pop 0.49M): 4.67
Virginia Beach (Pop 0.45M): 3.08
El Paso (Pop 0.69M): 2.76
San Diego (Pop 1.42M): 2.46
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 01, 2020, 05:26:15 PM
LOL, And not a one of them can make the top 20
  I would also say, is it population that makes for a high murder rate?  Because there are several cities that do not have huge populations that have sky high crime rates, so it it population or something else maybe?

  It took democrat mayors a good long while to get new york to the high murder rate it had back in the early 90's, as they say you can not build rome in a day.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 01, 2020, 05:29:40 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1137439
Ok, so some other democrat/progressive mayors have higher murder rates than NYC?  I am not that shocked.  But Diblasio is working on changing that, a thing anyone glancing at the news (even CNN is reporting the 25% uptick.

New York had a crime cycle, at one point the public identifies with the typical criminal, as liberals blame society for people turning to crime, because life is so unfair and the world is so racist, so they blame the cops for racism and figure the less cops the less racism, then the crime skyrockets, the people become afraid and elect mayors like Rudy Gulianni to clean up the town and the feel safe enough to feel sorry for the criminal once more, and the crime cycle repeats.

Do you support the crime cycle, do you think the criminal is a victim of society, or does the criminal prey on society?

I've seen some of those female protestors wanting to defund the police, do they want to get raped or something?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 01, 2020, 05:40:00 PM
I would say the murder rate caused them to elect Republican mayors. City people elect Republicans when their city has gone to Hell, otherwise when they feel safe, they feel sorry for criminals and want to let them out of jail. Liberals have a poor grasp of the concept of evil, they can't believe anyone in jail is ever evil, and they all have a sad story to tell, and they blame it on a racist society.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 01, 2020, 05:40:08 PM
Boise Idaho, has what a .044/100k murder rate.  It is only a couple hundred thousand people.

   By comparison, Flint Michigan has just under 100,000 people and a rate of over 42/100k.

  If we want to compare cities of very similar sizes and republicans and democrats I guess we can.  But I am not so sure it is as simple as that.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 01, 2020, 07:36:05 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1137455
Boise Idaho, has what a .044/100k murder rate.  It is only a couple hundred thousand people.

   By comparison, Flint Michigan has just under 100,000 people and a rate of over 42/100k.

  If we want to compare cities of very similar sizes and republicans and democrats I guess we can.  But I am not so sure it is as simple as that.

Just so you understand, if you live in a big city like Chicago like my cousin does, if you get mugged, robbed, raped, or murdered it is likely by a Democrat. Democratic politicians don't like to lose votes, and since a sizable portion of their constituents are criminals, they don't like to fight crime to vigorously. My cousin is a law abiding Democrat, or so I believe, but if she is a victim of a crime, it is likely the criminal belongs to the same party that she does, criminals live off of law abiding citizens like her, they need someone's pocket to pick, a purse to snatch or someone's apartment to break in to, that is how they earn a living, and these folk get pissed when the mayor puts too many cops on the street making it too difficult to earn a living as a crook, that is when they complain about police violence and racism.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 02, 2020, 03:18:43 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1136893
I think you are likely right about exporting the socialism (but most places got it from the USSR and their cronies back when they were putting it everywhere they could) in the modern day.  I think he made his point clumsily, but people who become voters, and their children who are born in the USA who hail from developing nations do vote left about 66 percent of the time.  Now if this is the case after 4 or 5 generations, I can not say.   People who have roots from those places seem much more comfortable with big government, strict gun control, and some limits to freedom of speech, at least statistically, who come here.   What percentage of the electorate in Mexico falls on the Conservative side?  I saw an interview, I think on Rogan once that said around 40 plus percent fall on that side of the line, and there are states that are much more conservative, but I have no idea.  I am guessing maybe the people going to the USA today as immigrants may be quite different than the people who came 30-40 years ago. I have no idea.  I just know how the people's kids now poll.


Where were those immigrant kids educated?

Exactly.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2020, 08:11:40 AM
Don't forget that crime rate statistics are dependent on honest reporting. There was a HUGE stinkbomb a while back about how British crime statistics were artificially lowered because they weren't adding unsolved murders into their homicides. In other words, only homicides where they caught someone were tallied.

Meanwhile, if you die in the U.S. and autopsy shows it wasn't natural causes, you get added to the tally.

'Lies, damn lies, and statistics...'
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 02, 2020, 09:50:59 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1137509
Where were those immigrant kids educated?

Exactly.

It varies, depends on what point in their life they immigrated. The main problem is they immigrate to someplace where they are considered a minority, there is something about them which prevents them from fully fitting in with society. In the past most immigrants came from Europe so that wasn't a problem, but now we have immigrants from Asia, Africa, and Latin America, so they form ghettos so they have their own country within this country, and it seems to me that if they feel they have to do that, they shouldn't have come in the first place.

One thing that gets me are the latin american immigrants, they come here and complain about the way they are treated. Why did they come here in the first place, seems to me that they should have know that the majority speak English here, were they not prepared for that? There are a lot of countries where the majority Speak Spanish, many illegal immigrants from Hondoras traveled through some of those countries on their way to the United States, yet they travel through those countries and sneak into America and call us racist for mistreating them. I guess they like being victims, that's why they come here, that is what the Democratic Party exists for to convince foreigners to come here illegally and be victims, that way they can get social reform. "Wanted: Immigrants that don't look like us, speak a different language and worship in a different religion, especially not Christian so they can complain about bigotry and racism and be victims in our society so we can champion their cause and get elected by their votes."
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 02, 2020, 01:16:14 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137542
It varies, depends on what point in their life they immigrated. The main problem is they immigrate to someplace where they are considered a minority, there is something about them which prevents them from fully fitting in with society. In the past most immigrants came from Europe so that wasn't a problem, but now we have immigrants from Asia, Africa, and Latin America, so they form ghettos so they have their own country within this country, and it seems to me that if they feel they have to do that, they shouldn't have come in the first place.

One thing that gets me are the latin american immigrants, they come here and complain about the way they are treated. Why did they come here in the first place, seems to me that they should have know that the majority speak English here, were they not prepared for that? There are a lot of countries where the majority Speak Spanish, many illegal immigrants from Hondoras traveled through some of those countries on their way to the United States, yet they travel through those countries and sneak into America and call us racist for mistreating them. I guess they like being victims, that's why they come here, that is what the Democratic Party exists for to convince foreigners to come here illegally and be victims, that way they can get social reform. "Wanted: Immigrants that don't look like us, speak a different language and worship in a different religion, especially not Christian so they can complain about bigotry and racism and be victims in our society so we can champion their cause and get elected by their votes."

Little Italy, China Town, etc. it's human behavior not third world behavior.

You're doing the exact same thing democrats do, conflating legal with illegal immigrants and jumping to whichever suits you.

And all those complaints they have? Guess who indoctrinated them?

You wanna find a culprit for all the illegal migration and civil unrest? Follow the money, who is giving money to those organizations? Who funds Pueblos Sin Fronteras? Who gives money to antifart rioters? Follow the money, and also look deep inside your own country, into your universities.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 02, 2020, 04:27:07 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1137509
Where were those immigrant kids educated?

Exactly.

 Oh for sure, the marxists, after putting them on welfare and free lunch talk all about the wonders of leftism.  I think the process if vote for socialism, flee to capitalism, vote socialism and repeat.   Leftists preach a victim narrative for anyone not a cis gender hetero white man, so it is not a wonder anyone not white ends up going for the party that promises easy life.  The question is, why is Mexico so left?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 02, 2020, 04:46:06 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1137629
Oh for sure, the marxists, after putting them on welfare and free lunch talk all about the wonders of leftism.  I think the process if vote for socialism, flee to capitalism, vote socialism and repeat.   Leftists preach a victim narrative for anyone not a cis gender hetero man, so it is not a wonder anyone not white ends up going for the party that promises easy life.  The question is, why is Mexico so left?

For starters we had 70+ years of a single party rule, that party (The PRI) is on the international socialist parties list. Second, from the start many of the revolutionary leaders were fucking leftists. "The land belongs to those who work it", third in our education system they never taught correct history nor economics and gave you to read the communist manifesto but not something against it and the teachers were mostly fucking commies.

If you ask me is a gut reaction to the irrational hate many have towards the USA, therefore they lurch left. Do any research and you'll see our poets, artists, etc all had ties to the URSS.

Then to make things worst you guys got your universities infected by the Marxists and started cranking crazy "theories" which the crazies here imported with gusto and pushed that BS onto new generations of imbecile lefties.

Plus the stupid love of your past governments to go fucking around in other countries have made people susceptible to conspiracy theories about how everything that goes wrong in Latin-America can be "shown" to have those evul gringos behind.

Add an unhealthy love-hate relation to Spain (the father, the conquistador, the oppressor) and the myth of how the Aztecs were saintly people minding their own bussiness and how the Tlaxcaltecs betrayed them and La Malinche (Doña Ines) (The mother, submissive, gentle and pure but also a whore) was also a whore and a traitor to México (Even if México didn't exist back then and you can't make them understand this).

The result is current year México.

Plus the imbecilic idea that not speaking English somehow makes you virtuous. Therefore they can read/watch the news straight from the horses mouth, and even if they did, how many would believe CNN? All those who already think Gringo = Devil
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 02, 2020, 04:59:40 PM
I watched a guy on Joe Rogan, and he mentioned the State he was from was very conservative politically, and the nation has sort of been under a "tyranny of the majority" for a very, very long time.  Where his estimation was around 45% of the people in Mexicobwere conservative, but had been under leftist party for decades.  I have no idea if his numbers were right, but I am sure the people in those states have got to be losing their minds when the latest comes from whoever is President.  I guess the current guy (at least in his campaign, no idea how he governed, past tucking his junk and bending over regarding the cartels) is really left, like Marx is his hero left.   That would have to be infuriating to have national politics like that.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 02, 2020, 05:02:03 PM
As for evil gringos mucking around in damn near EVERY country, probably not a complete conspiracy theory.   Sadly, much like being under one party rule, no tax paying American gets any say in foreign policy that has ANY effect on shadow bullshit and king making our government seems addicted to.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 02, 2020, 07:06:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1137598
Little Italy, China Town, etc. it's human behavior not third world behavior.

You're doing the exact same thing democrats do, conflating legal with illegal immigrants and jumping to whichever suits you.

And all those complaints they have? Guess who indoctrinated them?

You wanna find a culprit for all the illegal migration and civil unrest? Follow the money, who is giving money to those organizations? Who funds Pueblos Sin Fronteras? Who gives money to antifart rioters? Follow the money, and also look deep inside your own country, into your universities.

Yet if they want a socialist government, why do they come here? Don't they know where Cuba is? They speak Spanish in Cuba, so I guess logically, latinos should get in boats and head for Cuba.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 02, 2020, 08:08:47 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1137638
I watched a guy on Joe Rogan, and he mentioned the State he was from was very conservative politically, and the nation has sort of been under a "tyranny of the majority" for a very, very long time.  Where his estimation was around 45% of the people in Mexicobwere conservative, but had been under leftist party for decades.  I have no idea if his numbers were right, but I am sure the people in those states have got to be losing their minds when the latest comes from whoever is President.  I guess the current guy (at least in his campaign, no idea how he governed, past tucking his junk and bending over regarding the cartels) is really left, like Marx is his hero left.   That would have to be infuriating to have national politics like that.


O yeah, the beloved comrade leader is really left, kissing Maduro and fellating Castro and Xi left.

It's driving lots of people crazy, the dude that picks the trash daily is against our beloved El Presidente. It might surprise you but the leftists are champagne socialists.

And he's also a narco commie.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 02, 2020, 08:10:08 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137656
Yet if they want a socialist government, why do they come here? Don't they know where Cuba is? They speak Spanish in Cuba, so I guess logically, latinos should get in boats and head for Cuba.

Still conflating, still dodging anything that goes against your preconceived notions and anything that doesn't allow you to say "those brownies are evul!"
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 02, 2020, 09:22:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1137670
Still conflating, still dodging anything that goes against your preconceived notions and anything that doesn't allow you to say "those brownies are evul!"

No, I just don't want them bringing their portable revolutions from their poor country to my rich one. I've seen what they did to make their countries poor, and now they want to bring it to my country so that in the end stage of socialism, my country ends up just as poor as the ones they are leaving.

Most socialists are early stage socialists, they don't want to go directly to the bread lines in Cuba, they want to go to a country that is capitalist and wealthy so there are things to redistribute, they do this until the country is poor and everybody is equally poor except for the government leaders and then they move onto another country that they think is too rich and want to make poor. This is like slash and burn agriculture, socialist don't do anything sustainable, they just make everyone regardless of talents equally poor, but they don't want to go directly to a poor country.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 02, 2020, 10:00:51 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137679
No, I just don't want them bringing their portable revolutions from their poor country to my rich one. I've seen what they did to make their countries poor, and now they want to bring it to my country so that in the end stage of socialism, my country ends up just as poor as the ones they are leaving.

Most socialists are early stage socialists, they don't want to go directly to the bread lines in Cuba, they want to go to a country that is capitalist and wealthy so there are things to redistribute, they do this until the country is poor and everybody is equally poor except for the government leaders and then they move onto another country that they think is too rich and want to make poor. This is like slash and burn agriculture, socialist don't do anything sustainable, they just make everyone regardless of talents equally poor, but they don't want to go directly to a poor country.

Like I said before, your problem is the socialist gringos, solve that everything else is solved. While you have commiefornia offering free everything you'll attract the type of people that want free everything.

Your bigotry prevents you from reasoning sadly. Bye Felicia!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on July 02, 2020, 10:41:16 PM
It is vitally important to look at legal and illegal immigration completely separately.

Legal immigration is not easy, but conveys rights that allow them to assimilate easier into mainstream America. That's the goal of most legal immigrants and its what fuels their willingness to do the hard work necessary to immigrate legally. Unsurprisingly, many start businesses and make more money long term than native born citizens.

I've rarely met a legal immigrant who wasn't pro-American. Their kids are mixed bag depending on where they immigrated from and how well the family did once in America.

Unfortunately, our education system has utterly failed to convey our nation's principles because we allowed the education system and the media to fall into the hands of leftists, and now we have the results of 40 years of increasingly strident anti-American education being taught in our schools and in our popular culture.

In regards to Latino immigration, we've allowed so much illegal immigration and kept them in ghettos for cheap labor, so they have neither the avenue nor incentive to assimilate. Most illegals just want to make enough money to live better back home. As they have no "buy-in" to America, neither do their children...who are then indoctrinated by leftists to hate America.

We're totally fucked.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 03, 2020, 09:07:28 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1137689
It is vitally important to look at legal and illegal immigration completely separately.

Legal immigration is not easy, but conveys rights that allow them to assimilate easier into mainstream America. That's the goal of most legal immigrants and its what fuels their willingness to do the hard work necessary to immigrate legally. Unsurprisingly, many start businesses and make more money long term than native born citizens.

I've rarely met a legal immigrant who wasn't pro-American. Their kids are mixed bag depending on where they immigrated from and how well the family did once in America.

Unfortunately, our education system has utterly failed to convey our nation's principles because we allowed the education system and the media to fall into the hands of leftists, and now we have the results of 40 years of increasingly strident anti-American education being taught in our schools and in our popular culture.

In regards to Latino immigration, we've allowed so much illegal immigration and kept them in ghettos for cheap labor, so they have neither the avenue nor incentive to assimilate. Most illegals just want to make enough money to live better back home. As they have no "buy-in" to America, neither do their children...who are then indoctrinated by leftists to hate America.

We're totally fucked.

In the 1950s, there was a congressman named Joe McCarthy, he warned against Communists infiltrating our media and Hollywood, he was discredited and called "paranoid". Much was made of the blacklisting of actors, writers, and directors in Hollywood because of their communist associations and involvement. I wasn't around in those times, but I wonder how much of the "paranoid anticommunist witch hunt" was that or was just the media's character assassination of Joe McCarthy and the anticommunist movement that existed back then? Ever since, anticommunist were portrayed as nutty warhawks that wanted to go to war with the Soviet Union, and that communists were peaceful and misunderstood. People who warned too much about the evils of communism were called paranoid, when we warned that they were taking over our university campuses, we were not listened to, and now we have rioting in the streets by mostly college students that were taught to hate America by their professors! So how much of it was an witch hunt and how much of it was real? The fact that the Communists did take over Hollywood, and if you are a conservative, it is hard to get a job if you reveal your politics seems to be evidence that Joe McCarthy was right!

The fact remains that communism came from outside America's shores, it is not an American thing! People who tear down statues of George Washington are rejecting the American Revolution for the Russian Revolution! The Russian Revolution brought nothing but disaster for hundreds of millions of Russian citizens.

The leftists want the same thing for America, they want gulags, and tens of millions of Americans to perish in them, they want to dig mass graves for us by repeating the socialist experiment here that failed so badly for Russia, can you understand why I would want to get these people out of my country? They hate America and they don't belong here, their party was established by Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson, who's statues they tear down in favor of Karl Marx, Lenin, and Stalin, foreigners all! Communism was not an American thing, people who follow it need to translate the works of their heroes into English because they were not Americans. The Democratic Party used to be an American Party, but they have rejected the ideas of the party's founders in favor of something that is unAmerican and which would be a disaster for our country, they need to get out of the United States and experience Communism's failures for themselves without bring our country down with them. They are a bunch of mad scientists conducting the same experiments over and over again and expecting different results! We don't need those people here!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 03, 2020, 12:45:48 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137732
In the 1950s, there was a congressman named Joe McCarthy, he warned against Communists infiltrating our media and Hollywood, he was discredited and called "paranoid". Much was made of the blacklisting of actors, writers, and directors in Hollywood because of their communist associations and involvement. I wasn't around in those times, but I wonder how much of the "paranoid anticommunist witch hunt" was that or was just the media's character assassination of Joe McCarthy and the anticommunist movement that existed back then? Ever since, anticommunist were portrayed as nutty warhawks that wanted to go to war with the Soviet Union, and that communists were peaceful and misunderstood. People who warned too much about the evils of communism were called paranoid, when we warned that they were taking over our university campuses, we were not listened to, and now we have rioting in the streets by mostly college students that were taught to hate America by their professors! So how much of it was an witch hunt and how much of it was real? The fact that the Communists did take over Hollywood, and if you are a conservative, it is hard to get a job if you reveal your politics seems to be evidence that Joe McCarthy was right!

The fact remains that communism came from outside America's shores, it is not an American thing! People who tear down statues of George Washington are rejecting the American Revolution for the Russian Revolution! The Russian Revolution brought nothing but disaster for hundreds of millions of Russian citizens.

The leftists want the same thing for America, they want gulags, and tens of millions of Americans to perish in them, they want to dig mass graves for us by repeating the socialist experiment here that failed so badly for Russia, can you understand why I would want to get these people out of my country? They hate America and they don't belong here, their party was established by Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson, who's statues they tear down in favor of Karl Marx, Lenin, and Stalin, foreigners all! Communism was not an American thing, people who follow it need to translate the works of their heroes into English because they were not Americans. The Democratic Party used to be an American Party, but they have rejected the ideas of the party's founders in favor of something that is unAmerican and which would be a disaster for our country, they need to get out of the United States and experience Communism's failures for themselves without bring our country down with them. They are a bunch of mad scientists conducting the same experiments over and over again and expecting different results! We don't need those people here!

The democratic party used to be and still is the party of the KKK, is that what you call American?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 03, 2020, 02:21:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1137758
The democratic party used to be and still is the party of the KKK, is that what you call American?

 I think slavery was a bad idea, and we all would have been better off if there had been no slavery. The Democratic party was the party of slavery, it was the party of the planter class of the South that owned slaves. They were the party that supported Balkanization of the United States, many of them supported peaceful Balkanization of the United States during the Civil War, many were opposed to Lincoln's war to keep the South in the United States, and when the South lost, white southerners who were Democrats created the KKK as their resistance to the Republican Reconstruction program to make freed black slaves into citizens and give them equal rights with white people, the KKK resisted this, they in fact did lot of the stuff that Black Lives Matter does today, they did violence, they did arson, they would trespass onto people's property to burn crosses, they would have supported tearing down Lincoln's statue, which BLM did, because they hated Lincoln!

Lincoln had an idea of returning freed blacks to Africa, it was never followed through on though, many in the KKK did not want blacks to be returned to Africa, they wanted them here is a subservient capacity, they wanted them as second class citizens, they wanted them to be slaves in all but name if they couldn't have slavery itself. After a time, they wanted to make all white people feel guilty about racism and slavery, which they started. The Democrats started the Civil War, and they supported the secessionist movement in Seattle, they wanted to defund the police, and they'd be happy to break up the United States because they think it was a mistake, so they do everything they can to undo the United States. from tearing down statues, to flooding the countrymwith foreigners from the third world to make white people a minority. In case you missed it, being in the minority sucks. I would give all of those minorities who hate the United States the opportunity to not be a minority by not living in the United States. Each minority ethnic groups has a place in the world where they can go and not be a minority, they can go there and not face discrimination and prejudice, so why don't they if the complain about it so much?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 03, 2020, 02:37:03 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137766
I think slavery was a bad idea, and we all would have been better off if there had been no slavery. The Democratic party was the party of slavery, it was the party of the planter class of the South that owned slaves. They were the party that supported Balkanization of the United States, many of them supported peaceful Balkanization of the United States during the Civil War, many were opposed to Lincoln's war to keep the South in the United States, and when the South lost, white southerners who were Democrats created the KKK as their resistance to the Republican Reconstruction program to make freed black slaves into citizens and give them equal rights with white people, the KKK resisted this, they in fact did lot of the stuff that Black Lives Matter does today, they did violence, they did arson, they would trespass onto people's property to burn crosses, they would have supported tearing down Lincoln's statue, which BLM did, because they hated Lincoln!

Lincoln had an idea of returning freed blacks to Africa, it was never followed through on though, many in the KKK did not want blacks to be returned to Africa, they wanted them here is a subservient capacity, they wanted them as second class citizens, they wanted them to be slaves in all but name if they couldn't have slavery itself. After a time, they wanted to make all white people feel guilty about racism and slavery, which they started. The Democrats started the Civil War, and they supported the secessionist movement in Seattle, they wanted to defund the police, and they'd be happy to break up the United States because they think it was a mistake, so they do everything they can to undo the United States. from tearing down statues, to flooding the countrymwith foreigners from the third world to make white people a minority. In case you missed it, being in the minority sucks. I would give all of those minorities who hate the United States the opportunity to not be a minority by not living in the United States. Each minority ethnic groups has a place in the world where they can go and not be a minority, they can go there and not face discrimination and prejudice, so why don't they if the complain about it so much?

And if they choose not to? Many of those ARE USA citizens, you can't legally under your constitution, mine and international law just take it away. What then?

By your logic, white people, being a minority when you think world wide, should go back to Europe. I'm against this, because to me ethnicity/race =/= Culture, as your gringo commies prove.

And, you keep conflating all Immigrants legal and illegal, and now you're even dumping there people whose ancestors have lived there for hundreds of yeas...

Are you sure you're not a Democrat?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Chris24601 on July 03, 2020, 02:45:40 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1137284
It makes me wonder what the actual stomach for violence exists among conservatives. The GOP politicians have shown themselves to be abject cowards, but I wonder about the rank and file.

The GOP politicians aren't cowards; they're bought-off fake opposition.

They make just enough noise to get votes in "Flyover Country" and yet always fail to advance the Conservative agenda and even continue to slow walk the Leftist agenda via "compromise" when in power, then knuckle under completely and say they must "pick their battles" when the Leftists are in charge.

There's a reason many who follow politics closely say the GOP is just another part of the Uni-party (i.e. they and the Dems are just Right and Left Wings of the same Globalist Bird).

The real joke is that all the people calling for a third-party have failed to notice that President Trump is the first Second Party to get elected in decades. If the GOP were really on the President's side they'd call a recess in the Senate (which takes just ONE Senator voting no to happen) so he could make Recess Appointments instead of going a solid four years now without a single recess (just pro-forma session) so that even after an entire term there are STILL vacancies in key Executive Branch positions waiting to be filled because McConnell has been slow-walking every last appointment.

They're still slightly less bad than the out-and-out Leftists (which is why the strategy sadly must be "primary them then hold your nose in the general if you have to"), but I'd say we'd be lucky to count 30 House Reps and a third of President Trump's cabinet (everyone had to be vetted by McConnell whose interests are protecting their corruption) and a third of the Supreme Court as actually loyal to the United States. The rest are all some combination of bought off or blackmailed by the same multi-nationals who control the Democrat party.

As Mark Twain put it... "If voting made a difference, they wouldn't let us do it." They got blindsided in 2016 by a massive populist turnout (i.e. they couldn't plausibly manufacture enough fraudulent votes to change the outcome). They're doing absolutely everything in the power, including tanking the economy, virus scares and antifa/BLM violence and planned massive mail-in vote fraud, to try and make sure the actual people don't get a say in 2020.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 03, 2020, 04:11:33 PM
Quote from: Chris24601;1137770
The GOP politicians aren't cowards; they're bought-off fake opposition.

They make just enough noise to get votes in "Flyover Country" and yet always fail to advance the Conservative agenda and even continue to slow walk the Leftist agenda via "compromise" when in power, then knuckle under completely and say they must "pick their battles" when the Leftists are in charge.

There's a reason many who follow politics closely say the GOP is just another part of the Uni-party (i.e. they and the Dems are just Right and Left Wings of the same Globalist Bird).

The real joke is that all the people calling for a third-party have failed to notice that President Trump is the first Second Party to get elected in decades. If the GOP were really on the President's side they'd call a recess in the Senate (which takes just ONE Senator voting no to happen) so he could make Recess Appointments instead of going a solid four years now without a single recess (just pro-forma session) so that even after an entire term there are STILL vacancies in key Executive Branch positions waiting to be filled because McConnell has been slow-walking every last appointment.

They're still slightly less bad than the out-and-out Leftists (which is why the strategy sadly must be "primary them then hold your nose in the general if you have to"), but I'd say we'd be lucky to count 30 House Reps and a third of President Trump's cabinet (everyone had to be vetted by McConnell whose interests are protecting their corruption) and a third of the Supreme Court as actually loyal to the United States. The rest are all some combination of bought off or blackmailed by the same multi-nationals who control the Democrat party.

As Mark Twain put it... "If voting made a difference, they wouldn't let us do it." They got blindsided in 2016 by a massive populist turnout (i.e. they couldn't plausibly manufacture enough fraudulent votes to change the outcome). They're doing absolutely everything in the power, including tanking the economy, virus scares and antifa/BLM violence and planned massive mail-in vote fraud, to try and make sure the actual people don't get a say in 2020.

Greetings!

Excellent commentary, Chris. What are you eating over there for breakfast? You have been reading my mind with your analysis, my friend!

It is depressing. I've told my friends that the political system is so corrupted with money, super pacs, and globalists that it is such a monumental task to reform the system. It is so thoroughly corrupted, it is like we would have to literally fire 80% of them in one sweep to clear the deck for some decent Americans to take up the job. With the way our elections are, the advantage of incumbents, and the 24/7 propaganda machine, I just don't see how the "Swamp can be drained" you know? Though I applaud greatly President Trump's efforts and desire to achieve such a necessary goal. Even President Trump admitted that he had no idea how deep the swamp actually went. We see globalist, anti-American traitors not merely within the elected houses, but deep within the bureaucratic structures and institutions of government, from the FBI, the Pentagon, and throughout every level and organization of government, there are always globalist traitors that act as spies, and work constantly to undermine, embarrass, and defeat the President at every turn.

I explained to some friends, despite how sincere Trump is, you must realise that the corruption and problems facing America are far deeper and more challenging than just what one man can accomplish. Tens of thousands, more, millions even, of good Americans must wake the fuck up to the problems we face--the globalist Marxist threat that seeks to destroy us, and diligently and ferociously fight back against the traitors at every level, and in every area of society.

Hopefully, enough Americans will wake up and fight against the Marxist traitors to turn the tide, and take back our country and our culture.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 03, 2020, 04:13:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1137768
And if they choose not to? Many of those ARE USA citizens, you can't legally under your constitution, mine and international law just take it away. What then?

By your logic, white people, being a minority when you think world wide, should go back to Europe. I'm against this, because to me ethnicity/race =/= Culture, as your gringo commies prove.

And, you keep conflating all Immigrants legal and illegal, and now you're even dumping there people whose ancestors have lived there for hundreds of yeas...

Are you sure you're not a Democrat?


Let me put it to you simply, if they want to defund the police, their vote is endangering my life! They are voting for chaos and anarchy and also for the end of the United States, if they want that they and I can't live in the same country as their isn't a compromise that both of us can accept, if they hate the United States then they are the ones that should move, they don't get to destroy my country and make me a refugee. If the want to live in some other country besides the United States or if they want to make my country into a different country or several different countries, then they should leave! Peace loving Americans deserve peace and not someone else's idea of a revolution which leads to a dictator in charge! America haters should go, and make their own countries elsewhere. If they don't want to live in peace with me, they should leave. I like the United States the way it is, not like Fidel Castro's Cuba.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 03, 2020, 05:06:13 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137783
Let me put it to you simply, if they want to defund the police, their vote is endangering my life! They are voting for chaos and anarchy and also for the end of the United States, if they want that they and I can't live in the same country as their isn't a compromise that both of us can accept, if they hate the United States then they are the ones that should move, they don't get to destroy my country and make me a refugee. If the want to live in some other country besides the United States or if they want to make my country into a different country or several different countries, then they should leave! Peace loving Americans deserve peace and not someone else's idea of a revolution which leads to a dictator in charge! America haters should go, and make their own countries elsewhere. If they don't want to live in peace with me, they should leave. I like the United States the way it is, not like Fidel Castro's Cuba.

If they are voting they are USA citizens, you sound like a Democrat, an honest one and not the current crop that hide their racism. Because you choose to ignore all those against defunding the police and lump everybody together by their skin color.

Bye Felicia say hi to the ignore list!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 03, 2020, 05:15:15 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137783
Let me put it to you simply, if they want to defund the police, their vote is endangering my life! They are voting for chaos and anarchy and also for the end of the United States, if they want that they and I can't live in the same country as their isn't a compromise that both of us can accept, if they hate the United States then they are the ones that should move, they don't get to destroy my country and make me a refugee. If the want to live in some other country besides the United States or if they want to make my country into a different country or several different countries, then they should leave! Peace loving Americans deserve peace and not someone else's idea of a revolution which leads to a dictator in charge! America haters should go, and make their own countries elsewhere. If they don't want to live in peace with me, they should leave. I like the United States the way it is, not like Fidel Castro's Cuba.

Greetings!

Tom Kalbfus, GeekyBugle is not arguing in favour of Socialism or Marxism. The problem we are facing in America is that we have a segment of our society that are brainwashed fucking Communists. They have been brainwashed by Marxist professors in the universities, and Marxist teachers in the grade schools. That kind of Marxist brainwashing has been constantly reinforced by the stupid mantra reeing of many celebrities in the film, fashion, and music industries.

Many of these Marxist "activists" are *White*. Many of the college professors, teachers, politicians, celebrities, and "community leaders" pushing the Marxist agenda are *White*. Indeed, there are also many minorities of whatever stripe that are also brainwashed and involved in all of this. They are a problem, and a threat as well. Make no mistake though, most of the influential leaders and financial supporters are *White*. There are many Hispanics in their own countries fighting desperately against Marxism. They are fighting against the same enemy that we struggle against, Tom Kalbfus. Then also, it is true that many of those Marxist, Feminist elements within the United States are also involved in exporting their revolutionary and poisonous ideology to other foreign countries--such as Latin America. They write books, do speaking tours, provide lectures and curriculum, marketing campaigns in business, new "business cultures"--as well as activists sent into these different countries to supervise and orchestrate more cultural revolution. Oh, and also a constant flow of financial backing and support, to dazzle and seduce the local academics, artists, politicians, business leaders, and other people of influence to embrace the Marxist ideology, and work to poison, corrupt, and overthrow their own society and culture.

Immigrants to America are certainly a mixed bag when the gates are thrown wide open, and we just accept anyone and everyone. While many such foreign immigrants are influenced by Marxist ideology to one degree or another--that does not mean that all of the foreign immigrants are Marxists. A large number of them seek the same things and a better life in America--just like European immigrants and others in past centuries. Many of them are or become allies and patriots, working against the Marxists here, just as they worked against them back in their previous homelands. For example, most of the Vietnamese immigrants and American citizens now living in places like "Little Saigon", Garden Grove, and Westminster, California, are staunchly pro-America, pro-capitalist, and fiercely anti-Communists.

It is sobering to consider the fact that we must all stand up to serve as a bastion against Marxism, and a beacon of true freedom and liberty in a world that loves Socialism. MOST of the world has embraced socialism. Most of Europe? Socialist. Most of Asia? Socialist. Most of Latin America? Socialist. Most of Africa? Socialist. WE are outnumbered, and the challenge before us is grim, and difficult. We need to welcome and embrace all the allies and friends that believe in our values, and embrace them as much as we can. We all need to resist and fight, because the danger to our culture, to Western Civilization, is very real.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: HappyDaze on July 03, 2020, 05:53:08 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1137791
Greetings!

Tom Kalbfus, GeekyBugle is not arguing in favour of Socialism or Marxism. The problem we are facing in America is that we have a segment of our society that are brainwashed fucking Communists. They have been brainwashed by Marxist professors in the universities, and Marxist teachers in the grade schools. That kind of Marxist brainwashing has been constantly reinforced by the stupid mantra reeing of many celebrities in the film, fashion, and music industries.

Many of these Marxist "activists" are *White*. Many of the college professors, teachers, politicians, celebrities, and "community leaders" pushing the Marxist agenda are *White*. Indeed, there are also many minorities of whatever stripe that are also brainwashed and involved in all of this. They are a problem, and a threat as well. Make no mistake though, most of the influential leaders and financial supporters are *White*. There are many Hispanics in their own countries fighting desperately against Marxism. They are fighting against the same enemy that we struggle against, Tom Kalbfus. Then also, it is true that many of those Marxist, Feminist elements within the United States are also involved in exporting their revolutionary and poisonous ideology to other foreign countries--such as Latin America. They write books, do speaking tours, provide lectures and curriculum, marketing campaigns in business, new "business cultures"--as well as activists sent into these different countries to supervise and orchestrate more cultural revolution. Oh, and also a constant flow of financial backing and support, to dazzle and seduce the local academics, artists, politicians, business leaders, and other people of influence to embrace the Marxist ideology, and work to poison, corrupt, and overthrow their own society and culture.

Immigrants to America are certainly a mixed bag when the gates are thrown wide open, and we just accept anyone and everyone. While many such foreign immigrants are influenced by Marxist ideology to one degree or another--that does not mean that all of the foreign immigrants are Marxists. A large number of them seek the same things and a better life in America--just like European immigrants and others in past centuries. Many of them are or become allies and patriots, working against the Marxists here, just as they worked against them back in their previous homelands. For example, most of the Vietnamese immigrants and American citizens now living in places like "Little Saigon", Garden Grove, and Westminster, California, are staunchly pro-America, pro-capitalist, and fiercely anti-Communists.

It is sobering to consider the fact that we must all stand up to serve as a bastion against Marxism, and a beacon of true freedom and liberty in a world that loves Socialism. MOST of the world has embraced socialism. Most of Europe? Socialist. Most of Asia? Socialist. Most of Latin America? Socialist. Most of Africa? Socialist. WE are outnumbered, and the challenge before us is grim, and difficult. We need to welcome and embrace all the allies and friends that believe in our values, and embrace them as much as we can. We all need to resist and fight, because the danger to our culture, to Western Civilization, is very real.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So what happens in a democracy when you are outnumbered? Sure, there are some safeguards to oppose the tyranny of the majority, but they really only blunt it and slow it down.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: moonsweeper on July 03, 2020, 06:25:38 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1137799
So what happens in a democracy when you are outnumbered? Sure, there are some safeguards to oppose the tyranny of the majority, but they really only blunt it and slow it down.


That's why the founding fathers created a republic and put States power over federal except for the general defense, travel, trade and a very few other things.  You could make your state the way you wanted it or move to one you preferred.  Unfortunately the Federales keep saying no with an out of control and tyrannical court system.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 03, 2020, 07:48:08 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1137791
Greetings!

Tom Kalbfus, GeekyBugle is not arguing in favour of Socialism or Marxism. The problem we are facing in America is that we have a segment of our society that are brainwashed fucking Communists. They have been brainwashed by Marxist professors in the universities, and Marxist teachers in the grade schools. That kind of Marxist brainwashing has been constantly reinforced by the stupid mantra reeing of many celebrities in the film, fashion, and music industries.

Many of these Marxist "activists" are *White*. Many of the college professors, teachers, politicians, celebrities, and "community leaders" pushing the Marxist agenda are *White*. Indeed, there are also many minorities of whatever stripe that are also brainwashed and involved in all of this. They are a problem, and a threat as well. Make no mistake though, most of the influential leaders and financial supporters are *White*. There are many Hispanics in their own countries fighting desperately against Marxism. They are fighting against the same enemy that we struggle against, Tom Kalbfus. Then also, it is true that many of those Marxist, Feminist elements within the United States are also involved in exporting their revolutionary and poisonous ideology to other foreign countries--such as Latin America. They write books, do speaking tours, provide lectures and curriculum, marketing campaigns in business, new "business cultures"--as well as activists sent into these different countries to supervise and orchestrate more cultural revolution. Oh, and also a constant flow of financial backing and support, to dazzle and seduce the local academics, artists, politicians, business leaders, and other people of influence to embrace the Marxist ideology, and work to poison, corrupt, and overthrow their own society and culture.

Immigrants to America are certainly a mixed bag when the gates are thrown wide open, and we just accept anyone and everyone. While many such foreign immigrants are influenced by Marxist ideology to one degree or another--that does not mean that all of the foreign immigrants are Marxists. A large number of them seek the same things and a better life in America--just like European immigrants and others in past centuries. Many of them are or become allies and patriots, working against the Marxists here, just as they worked against them back in their previous homelands. For example, most of the Vietnamese immigrants and American citizens now living in places like "Little Saigon", Garden Grove, and Westminster, California, are staunchly pro-America, pro-capitalist, and fiercely anti-Communists.

It is sobering to consider the fact that we must all stand up to serve as a bastion against Marxism, and a beacon of true freedom and liberty in a world that loves Socialism. MOST of the world has embraced socialism. Most of Europe? Socialist. Most of Asia? Socialist. Most of Latin America? Socialist. Most of Africa? Socialist. WE are outnumbered, and the challenge before us is grim, and difficult. We need to welcome and embrace all the allies and friends that believe in our values, and embrace them as much as we can. We all need to resist and fight, because the danger to our culture, to Western Civilization, is very real.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The only way they will learn is if we give them what they want, but not in the United States! I know the results of the experiment they want to perform on our country. So the question remains, why won't the America haters leave? We'll see what we can get accomplished with the mechanisms of democracy. I think some action needs to be taken against the liberal media, they are part of the coup plot against America, maybe after the next election.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 03, 2020, 07:51:35 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1137799
So what happens in a democracy when you are outnumbered? Sure, there are some safeguards to oppose the tyranny of the majority, but they really only blunt it and slow it down.

Greetings!

Well, when the government becomes corrupted by Communists and Globalists, and their sniveling, boot-licking toadies, then good people need to clean house, and restore the country to sanity. Particular tax policies and numerous other legal and political cupcakes are things that we can all cheerfully debate, and accept the outcome with gracefulness, whatever the result. However, when such political interests, various institutions, the media, and so on become so corrupt that they betray our Constitution and our Republican heritage, then the cloak of "Democracy" no longer hides them. Like President Ronald Reagan said, "If Liberty dies here in America, there is nowhere else to escape to."

We have to resist the Marxist takeover of our country.

Preserve and protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 03, 2020, 07:57:38 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137812
The only way they will learn is if we give them what they want, but not in the United States! I know the results of the experiment they want to perform on our country. So the question remains, why won't the America haters leave? We'll see what we can get accomplished with the mechanisms of democracy. I think some action needs to be taken against the liberal media, they are part of the coup plot against America, maybe after the next election.

Greetings!

People that hate America do not want to leave America, and go somewhere else. Their goal is to subvert the United States, eating and chewing away at our national and social fabric like filthy rats. They gather together and scheme, and whisper, and enforce their will through corrupt judges and using the democratic processes when they can--and intimidation, violence, murder, looting and rioting when they cannot. They seek to overthrow our Republic, and are traitors. They have an ideological disease, a corruption of the mind and spirit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 03, 2020, 10:11:15 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1137816
Greetings!

People that hate America do not want to leave America, and go somewhere else. Their goal is to subvert the United States, eating and chewing away at our national and social fabric like filthy rats. They gather together and scheme, and whisper, and enforce their will through corrupt judges and using the democratic processes when they can--and intimidation, violence, murder, looting and rioting when they cannot. They seek to overthrow our Republic, and are traitors. They have an ideological disease, a corruption of the mind and spirit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Of course it is our republic that protects them, just like the German Weimar Republic protected Communists and leftists of all sorts, until the leftists helped topple it, and their threat drove Hitler into power. German leftists instead of trying to bolster the republic to keep Hitler from gaining power were trying to topple it instead! If they succeed in toppling our republic, that doesn't mean it will be replaced by something that benefits them.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on July 03, 2020, 10:26:31 PM
I will take a black, Latino or Asian conservative over any white liberal every day of the week.

Are there cultural differences between ethnic groups? Are there points of friction? Yes, but we're FAR beyond worrying about different colored wallpaper because the entire freaking house is burning down.

The biggest problem in America are white liberals and their MSM allies. They are driving the stupid train that's going to take us off the cliff. They're the ones with flamethrowers going room to room of America. The black Marxists of Burn Loot Murder are their useful idiots, but when 5 out of 7 of the "peaceful protestors" is a paleface honky bitchnugget, that's who is the problem.

It's easy to paint this "cultural revolution" as Black vs. White and that's the 24/7 story from the MSM, and sadly plenty of useful idiots are helping solidify this narrative. But that's the leftist bullshit narrative. The REAL story is we are in a death struggle of Freedom vs. Tyranny...and the politicians on the Right are beyond fucking useless.

We can't have a BBQ party in LA for 4th of July. "Because CoronaChan" is the official degree, but that's utter bullshit. The real story is the left doesn't want us to celebrate our history and our culture. "Stay Home and Stay Safe"...from unity and national pride.

If the GOP gave half a shit about America's future, they would be sounding the alarm to rally every single sane American of every color and creed to the battlefield as a united front. Every company bowing their knee would be told to stand up and smarten up or face the wrath of consumers. Every media company would find that go woke, go broke is coming for their bottom line.

But no. All we got is grumbling and capitulation.

Together we stand, divide we fall...and we're fucking divided like never before!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 03, 2020, 10:27:47 PM
Why should the United States be balkanized peacefully? What if instead it takes most of the world with it when it goes? That would give people a good incentive not to destabilize us. I'd rather the United States go with a bang than a whimper! No victory parades upon our demise, as no one will be left to have them.

Mutually Assured Destruction!

Leftists take your revolutions elsewhere, they are not welcome here!
Take your Karl Marx and shove it!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: moonsweeper on July 04, 2020, 01:08:34 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1137833

The biggest problem in America are white liberals and their MSM allies. They are driving the stupid train that's going to take us off the cliff. They're the ones with flamethrowers going room to room of America. The black Marxists of Burn Loot Murder are their useful idiots, but when 5 out of 7 of the "peaceful protestors" is a paleface honky bitchnugget, that's who is the problem.

It's easy to paint this "cultural revolution" as Black vs. White and that's the 24/7 story from the MSM, and sadly plenty of useful idiots are helping solidify this narrative. But that's the leftist bullshit narrative. The REAL story is we are in a death struggle of Freedom vs. Tyranny...and the politicians on the Right are beyond fucking useless.


The reason the European Black Block Antifa trash and their allies are pushing the Black vs White narrative is because their usual tactics don't work here in the US.  Without the whole ingrained feudalism in our subconscious, their European class warfare bullshit doesn't have any traction.  The race war idea is what they are able to drum up and get their useful idiots to support here in America.

Have you noticed that a number of the black libertarian and conservatives are getting worried about this?  Its because they know what is going on and they are getting scared that the Marxists and the MSM will manage to get that shit started.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 04, 2020, 06:51:45 AM
If blacks want to have a revolution in the United States, they should remember, they are a minority, the rest of America won't have a revolution with them, they should go to Africa and have their black revolution there. America already had its revolution, it doesn't need another revolution for Marxists. Kark Marx wasn't an America, he was a German!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 06, 2020, 06:24:32 PM
Greetings!

BLM is now arming up and stopping people to rob them at gun point. In other cities, armed BLM thugs are threatening and killing people--all of which is conveniently ignored and downplayed by the MSM.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 06, 2020, 07:05:27 PM
I guess that MSM narrative about black people not being able to protest with firearms is full on debunked.  Hell I agree with those guy's leader.  Give them a state, but I also think he chose Texas for a reason.  That will never happen, because Texans will not agree to that no way no how.  Now if he started arguing for Cali.... I suspect some californians would hand it over to him.

    I find it ROFLMAO that a black leftist militia leader is pushing separation, peaceful if possible......  Seems there are populist ideas out there with universal appeal.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shasarak on July 06, 2020, 10:17:24 PM
If they want a State then why not New New Mexico?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 06, 2020, 10:33:10 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1138273
If they want a State then why not New New Mexico?

  Maybe that was the plan B for if they all leave and take a place somewhere else.  I think he is over thinking anyone stopping him from leaving.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 06, 2020, 11:45:23 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1138273
If they want a State then why not New New Mexico?

If Mexico gives them the land to do that, that is their affair, but it is not coming out of the United States, that is all I can say! I do not see us letting them get away with seceding from the Union when we would not let the Confederacy do the same while we freed the ancestors of Black Lives Matter! Either they learn to coexist peacefully, of they can seperate themselves from our country without taking any land, they do not deserve any, they can go to Liberia if they will have them!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 07, 2020, 06:41:40 AM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138278
If Mexico gives them the land to do that, that is their affair, but it is not coming out of the United States, that is all I can say! I do not see us letting them get away with seceding from the Union when we would not let the Confederacy do the same while we freed the ancestors of Black Lives Matter! Either they learn to coexist peacefully, of they can seperate themselves from our country without taking any land, they do not deserve any, they can go to Liberia if they will have them!

  I think I would let em have land.    I think an ideological, peaceful split is best.  They can have their state(s), and since it seems they have no desire to live with white leftists, I guess the left is going to segregate out according to race when they split from the right.  I say let them do it.  Split the nation by ideology and move forward.  How much extra splitting the left wants to do among themselves, I say let them have at it.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 07, 2020, 09:52:00 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138292
I think I would let em have land.    I think an ideological, peaceful split is best.  They can have their state(s), and since it seems they have no desire to live with white leftists, I guess the left is going to segregate out according to race when they split from the right.  I say let them do it.  Split the nation by ideology and move forward.  How much extra splitting the left wants to do among themselves, I say let them have at it.

If we let the Confederacy secede from the Union, we could have avoided a lot of bloodshed and gotten rid of slavery in what remained of our country at very little cost in human lives, we also wouldn't have black lives matter, we wouldn't have had a president named Barack Obama, we wouldn't have had the burning and looting in our northern cities that we do now. 600,000 soldiers gave their lives to preserve this Union, I wouldn't want to betray those people who made the ultimate sacrifice. If I was so inclined to give them land, I would give them only the major cities that they make up the majority of the population in. New York State would become red if we separated out from it New York City, I don't see them getting that whole state.

We freed the slaves in the act of saving the union, and now some of the descendants of those slaves want secession? That is the word the Confederates used, that is the word the Media won't use to describe black lives matter, but that is what they are, secessionists, they did not build America, all they have attempted to do is tear it down, they do not deserve a single piece of this country, if we gave them a piece, it would become a haven for terrorists, and we would have to invade and occupy them to eliminate that threat. I would send them to the worst place I can think of in Africa, we don't need a little African state in North America where we would have to evacuate all the white people, as the Israelis did by removing Jews from the Gaza strip. BLM does not deserve it's own nation. Blacks were mostly dragged over here in chains, if they don't want to be part of America, they can always go back to Africa. They did not come here of their own free will, they were enslaved by their fellow blacks and sold to white slave traders and sent to the Americas and the Carribean, we gave them American citizenship when we freed them, but if they don't want American citizenship now, they can go back to Africa!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 07, 2020, 10:15:43 AM
I rather just give people who want to ideologically separate the ability to go ahead and do it.  If the left side of that split wants to further subdivide, i say let them go for it.   I think concern for what angry ghosts think concerning modern decisions is a waste of energy and time.  I am a pragmatist, and if splitting saves more lives than fighting it out, I rather do that.  I think there will be some death even in a "peaceful" split, but it is becoming more obvious all the time that there are more people entertaining this notion than MSM would like to report.   I most certainly prefer a split to having to bend a knee during the anthem, have a resurgence of leftist bullshit (insane men wanting to go to the bathroom with my daughter or wife, men competing with women, notions of equal outcomes at all costs, etc) that my kids get to suffer through.

    If I could talk the wife into it, I would already be in the mountains starting a homestead farm.   So I am not too attached to quaint notions of everyone getting along and living together.   People with dramatically different world views on how people conduct their lives are not going to get along.  Period.  Tolerance is a word no one cares to entertain, and constant shifting of the overton window means at this point, things I would tolerate require full throat acceptance at every moment lest I be shamed.  No thanks.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 07, 2020, 02:22:01 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138316
I rather just give people who want to ideologically separate the ability to go ahead and do it.  If the left side of that split wants to further subdivide, i say let them go for it.   I think concern for what angry ghosts think concerning modern decisions is a waste of energy and time.  I am a pragmatist, and if splitting saves more lives than fighting it out, I rather do that.  I think there will be some death even in a "peaceful" split, but it is becoming more obvious all the time that there are more people entertaining this notion than MSM would like to report.   I most certainly prefer a split to having to bend a knee during the anthem, have a resurgence of leftist bullshit (insane men wanting to go to the bathroom with my daughter or wife, men competing with women, notions of equal outcomes at all costs, etc) that my kids get to suffer through.

    If I could talk the wife into it, I would already be in the mountains starting a homestead farm.   So I am not too attached to quaint notions of everyone getting along and living together.   People with dramatically different world views on how people conduct their lives are not going to get along.  Period.  Tolerance is a word no one cares to entertain, and constant shifting of the overton window means at this point, things I would tolerate require full throat acceptance at every moment lest I be shamed.  No thanks.

Africa is big enough, isn't it? It is a very large continent, larger than North America, even though some map projections of it make it look like the size of Greenland. Slavery was a terrible mistake, it should not have happened. There was a plan to send freed blacks to Liberia, but it was never followed up on. Blacks remained here and became US citizens, if they don't want to be US citizens, they can renounce their US citizenship and go to another country! There is nothing worse than having to share your country with people who hate it, and want their own revolution so they can get to make their own country, violate human rights, set up a dictatorship, and then launch rockets into US territory. If they are going to be our enemy, I'd rather have them as far away as possible, not abutting our borders. We don't want a country of America-haters next door!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 07, 2020, 06:30:32 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138339
Africa is big enough, isn't it? It is a very large continent, larger than North America, even though some map projections of it make it look like the size of Greenland. Slavery was a terrible mistake, it should not have happened. There was a plan to send freed blacks to Liberia, but it was never followed up on. Blacks remained here and became US citizens, if they don't want to be US citizens, they can renounce their US citizenship and go to another country! There is nothing worse than having to share your country with people who hate it, and want their own revolution so they can get to make their own country, violate human rights, set up a dictatorship, and then launch rockets into US territory. If they are going to be our enemy, I'd rather have them as far away as possible, not abutting our borders. We don't want a country of America-haters next door!

  LOL you might have them living two houses over right now.  I prefer a fence where they can do their own thing.  Easy enough to respond to foolish rocket launches.  I honestly think the problems would start in 15 or so years after such a separation when there are people hopping the border to flee to where capitalism still operates
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 07, 2020, 06:48:57 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138367
LOL you might have them living two houses over right now.  I prefer a fence where they can do their own thing.  Easy enough to respond to foolish rocket launches.  I honestly think the problems would start in 15 or so years after such a separation when there are people hopping the border to flee to where capitalism still operates

Harder to get here from Africa. I don't want an unstable third World country on the southern border. People who don't want to be Americans have other countries they can go to. Give them land, and that will just encourage them to nation build at our expense. If slavery was a mistake, then the results of slavery, their being here was also a mistake, they either agree to be American citizens and live under our laws, or they can go to Africa!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 07, 2020, 08:56:10 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138339
Africa is big enough, isn't it? It is a very large continent, larger than North America, even though some map projections of it make it look like the size of Greenland. Slavery was a terrible mistake, it should not have happened. There was a plan to send freed blacks to Liberia, but it was never followed up on. Blacks remained here and became US citizens, if they don't want to be US citizens, they can renounce their US citizenship and go to another country!
Prior to the Civil War, there were some 15,000 free blacks who were sent to Liberia -- they founded the country in 1847. But going there was like the Trail of Tears or being sent to Siberia under Stalin -- there was a horrific death rate among the colonists. And American blacks had nothing in common with the local people in Liberia. Thus, after the Civil War, almost no one were interested in being shipped off there. Also, as a practical matter, there were 4.5 million blacks at the end of the Civil War. There was no practical way to relocate more than a tiny fraction of them even if they wanted to go. It would have been a more massive undertaking than the Civil War itself.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138339
There is nothing worse than having to share your country with people who hate it, and want their own revolution so they can get to make their own country, violate human rights, set up a dictatorship, and then launch rockets into US territory. If they are going to be our enemy, I'd rather have them as far away as possible, not abutting our borders. We don't want a country of America-haters next door!
Inevitably, when a country enslaves and/or conquers people, their descendants become part of the country. It happens all over - in Wales, North Ireland, Basque country, Lapland, Bavaria, Tibet, and more. In my reading of history, segregating and shipping those people off to reservations or colonies doesn't work out very well. It makes for greater continuing conflict and violence, compared to just accepting that the conquered people are part of your country and trying to get along. In the U.S., we've had periodic race riots ever since the Civil War, but in general, we've had less ethnic violence than other conflicts like the North Irish or the Basque.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 07, 2020, 11:40:35 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138380
Prior to the Civil War, there were some 15,000 free blacks who were sent to Liberia -- they founded the country in 1847. But going there was like the Trail of Tears or being sent to Siberia under Stalin -- there was a horrific death rate among the colonists. And American blacks had nothing in common with the local people in Liberia. Thus, after the Civil War, almost no one were interested in being shipped off there. Also, as a practical matter, there were 4.5 million blacks at the end of the Civil War. There was no practical way to relocate more than a tiny fraction of them even if they wanted to go. It would have been a more massive undertaking than the Civil War itself.


Inevitably, when a country enslaves and/or conquers people, their descendants become part of the country. It happens all over - in Wales, North Ireland, Basque country, Lapland, Bavaria, Tibet, and more. In my reading of history, segregating and shipping those people off to reservations or colonies doesn't work out very well. It makes for greater continuing conflict and violence, compared to just accepting that the conquered people are part of your country and trying to get along. In the U.S., we've had periodic race riots ever since the Civil War, but in general, we've had less ethnic violence than other conflicts like the North Irish or the Basque.
The Germans had Eastern Europeans working in forced labor camps in Germany, after they were freed, most had no desire to become German citizens and went back home. Also in Poland and Czechslovakia, there were ethnic Germans that had lived here all their lives, yet they were forced to go Germany. Ethnic Germans in Poland didn't want to be Poles, they didn't want to leave, and they considered their land to be part of Germany, yet they were forced to leave anyway, they caused trouble, they were the excuse for Germany invading Poland and starting World War II, so they were forced to leave. I think it was about time too, how many people died because of them?

People are dying in the United States because of urban violence, it's been 155 years since the end of the Civil War and the freeing of black people from slavery. Black people are built for the tropics, I am not. I am fine with most of Sub-Saharan Africa being populated by black people, that is why they have dark skin, my skin in not built for that, I sunburn very easily. I have no desire to live in Africa, if I did, I would have to be indoors whenever the sun was up, that climate is not what my body was built for, theirs is. I would not want to be in any country where I was the minority, I do not know why they would want to be in a country where they are the minority, there are countries they can live in where they would not be in the minority, but they choose to live here and complain about racism.

We've elected the first black president, yet still they complain that we are a racist country, now where they go too far is when they insist on defunding the police because they say the police are racist, even when most of them are black! I am completely and totally fed up with them, they want no police so their gangs can rule our city streets so they can make our cities dangerous places to live, and I say no thank you to that! They have riots they say because of racism, well 155 years of riots have not gotten rid of racism, so I suggest they leave, I don't need their violence and their anger management issues and their blaming everything on racism, and their hating my country, if they hate it, they should leave. My patience has run out with them, they should do themselves and us a favor, get away from white people and stop complaining about them, we are tired of being their scapegoats for everything!

I am not going to apologize for slavery, what happened 155 years ago has nothing to do with me, if they insist on white people apologizing and threaten violence if they don't get it, then they should leave! We need peace in this country, not their endless violence! Is there some reason that they can't behave themselves, is it in their DNA? I don't know why they constantly excuse themselves for committing crimes, and then complain about a disproportionate number of them being in prison, they want to be excused more for committing crimes because of the color of their skin. My problem with them is their behavior, and they pretend it's because of their skin color. How do we end this violence? Seems like nothing we ever do will satisfy them enough to quit rioting, it is just after 155 years of just doesn't end. Maybe there is no getting along. I can't learn to tolerate crime and they can't seem to tolerate law and order, so they are the minority and if they want to live someplace without police protection, may I suggest Africa?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 07, 2020, 11:52:56 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138380
Prior to the Civil War, there were some 15,000 free blacks who were sent to Liberia -- they founded the country in 1847. But going there was like the Trail of Tears or being sent to Siberia under Stalin -- there was a horrific death rate among the colonists. And American blacks had nothing in common with the local people in Liberia. Thus, after the Civil War, almost no one were interested in being shipped off there. Also, as a practical matter, there were 4.5 million blacks at the end of the Civil War. There was no practical way to relocate more than a tiny fraction of them even if they wanted to go. It would have been a more massive undertaking than the Civil War itself.


Inevitably, when a country enslaves and/or conquers people, their descendants become part of the country. It happens all over - in Wales, North Ireland, Basque country, Lapland, Bavaria, Tibet, and more. In my reading of history, segregating and shipping those people off to reservations or colonies doesn't work out very well. It makes for greater continuing conflict and violence, compared to just accepting that the conquered people are part of your country and trying to get along. In the U.S., we've had periodic race riots ever since the Civil War, but in general, we've had less ethnic violence than other conflicts like the North Irish or the Basque.

155 years of race riots, racist feed off of each other, one side riots because they want revenge for racism, and then the other side riots because they want revenge for those riots, there are people on both side that just love to disturb the peace and make everyone else miserable. Since they mayors of these cities want to appease the rioters by not enforcing the law, then at that point they should live in another country. Those cities they live in cannot be viable seperate countries, especially if they have no police, no one is going to want to trade in them. If they hate whites, then get them away from whites. It's as simple as that.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 08, 2020, 02:07:23 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138406
People are dying in the United States because of urban violence, it's been 155 years since the end of the Civil War and the freeing of black people from slavery. Black people are built for the tropics, I am not. I am fine with most of Sub-Saharan Africa being populated by black people, that is why they have dark skin, my skin in not built for that, I sunburn very easily. I have no desire to live in Africa, if I did, I would have to be indoors whenever the sun was up, that climate is not what my body was built for, theirs is. I would not want to be in any country where I was the minority, I do not know why they would want to be in a country where they are the minority, there are countries they can live in where they would not be in the minority, but they choose to live here and complain about racism.

People are dying in the United States because of violence in general, not just black urban violence. For example, Montana is the whitest state in the union - and one of the least urban, and it has a higher murder rate than New York. (Source) (https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-5) The question is, what should be done about the violence?

In discussions about guns, many people don't think that the current level of gun violence is a crisis, and don't agree to blame legal gun owners for the actions of violent criminals. Indeed, legal gun owners can act to deter criminal violence. As a group, gun owners are violent and cause a lot of deaths, but at the same time, there are many ethical and moral people who own guns.

I think the same should apply to black people. If we're not deporting gun owners from the country, then we shouldn't be deporting blacks. The overwhelming majority of black people are not violent criminals, and they can and do act to deter violence. For example, my friend Rahman has been very active in trying to get kids into positive roles - as a teacher and as a performer, and in how he raises his own daughter. We had a Black Lives Matter protest here in my town of Redwood City, and he was asked to speak, and he spoke out against violence. And as a result of leadership like his, there was no violence at our protest. People spoke out on issues and marched, but there was no rioting - and we even mostly kept up social distancing.

However, I think that he would not react well to your suggestion that he should go to Africa. I think comments like this are part of what perpetuates the problems that we are having. I think even conservative black policemen wouldn't react well to that. And even the biology there is misinformed. Skin tone is actually a very minor adaptation to a difference in sunlight angle. White people can live by the equator just as well as they can in Texas and Arizona, while black people can live in northern areas like Chicago perfectly well. My ex-father-in-law is a pasty white American, and he was born and raised in Venezuela close to the equator. Particularly in the modern world with sunscreen, it's not a significant difference.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138406
I am not going to apologize for slavery, what happened 155 years ago has nothing to do with me, if they insist on white people apologizing and threaten violence if they don't get it, then they should leave! We need peace in this country, not their endless violence! Is there some reason that they can't behave themselves, is it in their DNA? I don't know why they constantly excuse themselves for committing crimes, and then complain about a disproportionate number of them being in prison, they want to be excused more for committing crimes because of the color of their skin. My problem with them is their behavior, and they pretend it's because of their skin color. How do we end this violence? Seems like nothing we ever do will satisfy them enough to quit rioting, it is just after 155 years of just doesn't end. Maybe there is no getting along. I can't learn to tolerate crime and they can't seem to tolerate law and order, so they are the minority and if they want to live someplace without police protection, may I suggest Africa?

I think it is not in their DNA. In the wider world, you see similar problems with conquered people like the Irish, the Basque, and many others. While slavery ended 155 years ago, that was not the end of discrimination. Over sixty years after the end of slavery, tens of thousands of KKK members openly marched in Washington DC -- which was the peak of their popularity. And the experience of many black people is that they are still judged by the color of their skin. It's not about what happened 155 years ago, it's about what happens to them in their own lives. For example, Mike Pondsmith, who is a black conservative game author, talks about his experiences here:

Quote
First, I'll answer the question you think you want to ask me but really don't want to ask me. Yeah, I've been pulled over by cops more times than I care to remember. And at least once, I was pretty sure the cop (who was off duty at the time and flagged me into a deserted street area) was planning to pound me for no reason until he found out that I was friends with a ton of local cops who were going to investigate whatever happened to me. And there was the period when the local cops decided to pretty much harass me whenever they saw me; until I mentioned it to a friend who was the City Councilman in charge of police oversight–and then, miraculously, it was like a magical "don't mess with this guy" bubble appeared around me from then on.

But I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm a black guy with friends who are cops and LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) of all stripes. I also know some pretty high-powered people who guard my back. I'm not a relatively faceless black guy just minding my own business when some cop gets an urge to bust heads or some "Karen" decides to release her inner racist because she just can't help it but she really isn't a racist at all and she wouldn't have done that, really. Even so, there's no safe level of being black in America. You could be a senator; a  famous actor, a brilliant scientist or even the recipient of the Nobel Prize, but to the supremacist with a badge, or the secret racist who really doesn't want to consider the idea that someone who doesn't look like them could actually be a living, breathing human being with hopes, dreams and rights just like they have, you are a target. Every single case I have just described has happened in this so-called post racial America. It's just that a lot of people would rather just pretend it isn't happening.

Source: https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/12/mike-pondsmith-cops-and-racists/

All of my black friends have similar stories. I had a friend in my local theater group who described that when her uncle came to visit her family, a neighbor called the police because a "strange man lurking around the neighborhood". These people aren't criminals using racism as an excuse. They're peaceful, law-abiding people who attest to facing discrimination. I think we have progressed since the 1920s, the 1950s, and the 1980s -- but that doesn't mean that all problems are gone.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2020, 02:57:21 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138502
All of my black friends have similar stories.
While I do not advocate forced relocation, this whole bloody thing screams first world problems too me. Caring about microaggressions to this degree IS a first world problem. When is 'racism' over? When every persons brain is linked to an overmind hive mind where no person can discriminate ever?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 08, 2020, 05:10:29 PM
Greetings!

First World problems indeed. Whaa, Whaa, Whaa! All of these people clutching their pearls because someone else "offended" them. Well, out in the wider world, no one gives a damn that you are "offended". Just suck it the fuck down and move on.

I imagine that many black people offend white people every day. Why does no one give a fuck about when white people are offended? Why are minority cultures so idolized and deemed special? What about white culture? What about what white people value? What about the standards and social expectations of white people? Why are those feelings, values, and standards not considered to be important?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 08, 2020, 05:27:08 PM
I LOL a bit when using Montana as a super white state and giving their homicide rates and COMPLETELY ignoring what looks like years worth of articles about there being an epidemic of homicide among native americans IN MONTANA.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 08, 2020, 05:30:58 PM
I also remember what the Gaul chieftain did when the leaders of Rome, bitching about the scales that were weighing out the tribute Rome had to pay the Gauls to leave after conquering Rome.  He took out his sword and tossed it onto the weighted side of the scales, "Woe to the Conquered!!!" he exclaimed as he stared the whiners in the eyes.

   I think we are headed there.  I have heard all the bitching I can stomach for something I had zero to do with (and not a single slave owner anywhere in the line, thanks to an Aunt that really needed a hobby 30 years ago).   SO go out, do your best and shut the fuck up.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 08, 2020, 05:32:44 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138534
I LOL a bit when using Montana as a super white state and giving their homicide rates and COMPLETELY ignoring what looks like years worth of articles about there being an epidemic of homicide among native americans IN MONTANA.

Greetings!

That's right, Ogg! Jhkim wants you to believe that white people are running amok killing each other in fucking Montana. Give me a break! *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 08, 2020, 05:55:26 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138537
I also remember what the Gaul chieftain did when the leaders of Rome, bitching about the scales that were weighing out the tribute Rome had to pay the Gauls to leave after conquering Rome.  He took out his sword and tossed it onto the weighted side of the scales, "Woe to the Conquered!!!" he exclaimed as he stared the whiners in the eyes.

   I think we are headed there.  I have heard all the bitching I can stomach for something I had zero to do with (and not a single slave owner anywhere in the line, thanks to an Aunt that really needed a hobby 30 years ago).   SO go out, do your best and shut the fuck up.

I believe the Latin is 'vae victis'.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 08, 2020, 06:03:04 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138511
While I do not advocate forced relocation, this whole bloody thing screams first world problems too me. Caring about microaggressions to this degree IS a first world problem. When is 'racism' over? When every persons brain is linked to an overmind hive mind where no person can discriminate ever?

  Neither do I.  I do advocate if this is not how you want me to think, you are better off moving away than trying to make me think your way though.  I can assure you the left side of that right left balkanized split is going to be a shit show in less than 5 years, and the right side will be whistling while they work.  Maybe argueing about football or boxing all time greats,  while the leftists are still canceling one another for lacking "purity".
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 08, 2020, 06:12:31 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138534
I LOL a bit when using Montana as a super white state and giving their homicide rates and COMPLETELY ignoring what looks like years worth of articles about there being an epidemic of homicide among native americans IN MONTANA.

Quote from: SHARK
That's right, Ogg! Jhkim wants you to believe that white people are running amok killing each other in fucking Montana. Give me a break! *Laughing*

oggsmash, here's the breakdown of offender race in the 2016 Montana crime report. The big blue 80% is from white offenders.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4638[/ATTACH]
Source: http://mbcc.mt.gov/Portals/130/Data/CIM/CIM2016.pdf

American Indians are over-represented compared to their population, but they're not moving the needle significantly. Even if we ignored *all* American Indian offenders, the rate would still be comparable to New York's.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 08, 2020, 06:20:00 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138549
oggsmash, here's the breakdown of offender race in the 2016 Montana crime report. The big blue 80% is from white offenders.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4638[/ATTACH]
Source: http://mbcc.mt.gov/Portals/130/Data/CIM/CIM2016.pdf

American Indians are over-represented compared to their population, but they're not moving the needle significantly. Even if we ignored *all* American Indian offenders, the rate would still be comparable to New York's.

  That is not a break down of homicides is it? Have we shifted to how whites are under represented in the crime from the homicide rates of Montana (a super white state you say), yet I still see no breakdowns of homicide by race.  I also find it odd you have a 2014 chart for homicide, and how we are on a 2016 chart for crimes.  Are we talking crime, or homicide?  It seems the subject changes quite fast.  Why not just focus on homicide?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 08, 2020, 06:40:02 PM
Since you brought white states into this whole thing, maybe we should just compare homicide rates between non hispanic whites and black people?  Nationally Per 100,000 shall we?  Then we can at least all be looking at the same metric rather than wondering how much living with grizzlies and on a ranch might make you want to shoot someone?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 08, 2020, 07:01:11 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138553
Since you brought white states into this whole thing, maybe we should just compare homicide rates between non hispanic whites and black people?  Nationally Per 100,000 shall we?  Then we can at least all be looking at the same metric rather than wondering how much living with grizzlies and on a ranch might make you want to shoot someone?
What you're saying is that we should *only* look at race, and not look at other factors?

My point is that for both whites and blacks, people in different social circumstances will commit crimes at different rates. The white people of Montana commit crimes at a different rate than the white people in New York. We don't question that this is because the people of Montana have something in their DNA and suggest that they be shipped back to Europe. We don't generalize based on states this way. But some people are willing to generalize based on skin color.

I don't think that generalization has a basis. I don't think that black people have something in their DNA that drives them to crime any more than Montanans do. And I don't think that the vast majority of moral, upstanding black people are to blame for what black criminals do.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 08, 2020, 07:05:55 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138557
What you're saying is that we should *only* look at race, and not look at other factors?

My point is that for both whites and blacks, people in different social circumstances will commit crimes at different rates. The white people of Montana commit crimes at a different rate than the white people in New York. We don't question that this is because the people of Montana have something in their DNA and suggest that they be shipped back to Europe. We don't generalize based on states this way. But some people are willing to generalize based on skin color.

I don't think that generalization has a basis. I don't think that black people have something in their DNA that drives them to crime any more than Montanans do. And I don't think that the vast majority of moral, upstanding black people are to blame for what black criminals do.

I have a feeling the white people of Montana probably commit homicide at around the national rate for homicide for white people.  We should look and see if that is true.  I do not generalize a thing, but I think something is going on if a group has a homicide rate of 16.9 per 100,000 and the third place is around 3.1 per 100,000 nationally.   I do not think the difference is genetic, but if we are going to pretend there is no difference, we are never, ever going to address what anyone with eyes can see is a problem.

   Also, YOU brought up the whitest state in the union (your words, not mine, and I am also not so certain that is true) to make a point that seems to be all over the frigging place.  But we can start with one factor and then start normalizing for others, one at a time.  Is that not what anyone wanting truth should do?   But given how dubious your presentation of homicide rates for one year, then a crime chart from another year...... I think truth is not your first priority.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2020, 07:11:14 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138549
oggsmash, here's the breakdown of offender race in the 2016 Montana crime report. The big blue 80% is from white offenders.

Interesting. 80% of offenders are white but 90% of the victims are white. It's also all over the place for individual crimes.
Also, I found it interesting that Montana's crime rates are rising as the rest of the countries is falling. Also, that Native Americans make more money in Montana then whites or even Asians.
While Property crime is going down.

But Il be honest I don't know the super details of crime statistics so I cannot comment on the crime breakdowns in Montana.

It is very unpopulated though, so I know that skews crime statistics in a weird way. (Alaska technically has like #2 homicide rate)

Quote from: oggsmash;1138551
That is not a break down of homicides is it? Have we shifted to how whites are under represented in the crime from the homicide rates of Montana (a super white state you say), yet I still see no breakdowns of homicide by race.  I also find it odd you have a 2014 chart for homicide, and how we are on a 2016 chart for crimes.  Are we talking crime, or homicide?  It seems the subject changes quite fast.  Why not just focus on homicide?
The 2016 isn't much different dude. Crime rates rarely change drastically within 2 years or so. Stop assuming hostile intent on Jhkims side. I find he is not a disingenuous argumenter.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 08, 2020, 07:14:30 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138559
Interesting. 80% of offenders are white but 90% of the victims are white. It's also all over the place for individual crimes.
Also, I found it interesting that Montana's crime rates are rising as the rest of the countries is falling. Also, that Native Americans make more money in Montana then whites or even Asians.
While Property crime is going down.

But Il be honest I don't know the super details of crime statistics so I cannot comment on the crime breakdowns in Montana.

It is very unpopulated though, so I know that skews crime statistics in a weird way. (Alaska technically has like #2 homicide rate)


The 2016 isn't much different dude. Crime rates rarely change drastically within 2 years or so. Stop assuming hostile intent on Jhkims side. I find he is not a disingenuous argumenter.

 He posted one that he highlighted homicides.  The other is a general crime chart.  They are not the same thing.  The time difference is less the issue.  He himself SPECIFICALLY stated the homicide rate is his point.  Then posted a chart that has jack to do with that.  I have no idea what he is even arguing given what he keeps posting.  So I simplified the topic down to the bare bones, and since he wanted to speak about whitest states, I suggested one metric.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2020, 07:23:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138560
He posted one that he highlighted homicides.

In which case the chart says 73% of homicides are white and 19% are American Indian. I generally dislike talking about super nitty-gritty statistics because the rates are very low overall. Its very skewy.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 08, 2020, 07:34:07 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138563
In which case the chart says 73% of homicides are white and 19% are American Indian. I generally dislike talking about super nitty-gritty statistics because the rates are very low overall. Its very skewy.

  Pretty sure that is aggravated assault.   I see no breakdowns on homicides.   What page did you see the homicide breakdown on?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 08, 2020, 08:04:24 PM
Also worth noting the FBI has 37 homicides for Montana in 2014, the second chart/report has it at 28, for a lower homicide rate than New york, if they are right.  So we have two charts/reports that directly conflict with one another.  Unless Montana decided to just ignore 10 homicides?  This is all over the place.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 08, 2020, 08:38:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138502
People are dying in the United States because of violence in general, not just black urban violence. For example, Montana is the whitest state in the union - and one of the least urban, and it has a higher murder rate than New York. (Source) (https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-5) The question is, what should be done about the violence?

In discussions about guns, many people don't think that the current level of gun violence is a crisis, and don't agree to blame legal gun owners for the actions of violent criminals. Indeed, legal gun owners can act to deter criminal violence. As a group, gun owners are violent and cause a lot of deaths, but at the same time, there are many ethical and moral people who own guns.

I think the same should apply to black people. If we're not deporting gun owners from the country, then we shouldn't be deporting blacks. The overwhelming majority of black people are not violent criminals, and they can and do act to deter violence. For example, my friend Rahman has been very active in trying to get kids into positive roles - as a teacher and as a performer, and in how he raises his own daughter. We had a Black Lives Matter protest here in my town of Redwood City, and he was asked to speak, and he spoke out against violence. And as a result of leadership like his, there was no violence at our protest. People spoke out on issues and marched, but there was no rioting - and we even mostly kept up social distancing.

However, I think that he would not react well to your suggestion that he should go to Africa. I think comments like this are part of what perpetuates the problems that we are having. I think even conservative black policemen wouldn't react well to that. And even the biology there is misinformed. Skin tone is actually a very minor adaptation to a difference in sunlight angle. White people can live by the equator just as well as they can in Texas and Arizona, while black people can live in northern areas like Chicago perfectly well. My ex-father-in-law is a pasty white American, and he was born and raised in Venezuela close to the equator. Particularly in the modern world with sunscreen, it's not a significant difference.


I think it is not in their DNA. In the wider world, you see similar problems with conquered people like the Irish, the Basque, and many others. While slavery ended 155 years ago, that was not the end of discrimination. Over sixty years after the end of slavery, tens of thousands of KKK members openly marched in Washington DC -- which was the peak of their popularity. And the experience of many black people is that they are still judged by the color of their skin. It's not about what happened 155 years ago, it's about what happens to them in their own lives. For example, Mike Pondsmith, who is a black conservative game author, talks about his experiences here:


Source: https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/12/mike-pondsmith-cops-and-racists/

All of my black friends have similar stories. I had a friend in my local theater group who described that when her uncle came to visit her family, a neighbor called the police because a "strange man lurking around the neighborhood". These people aren't criminals using racism as an excuse. They're peaceful, law-abiding people who attest to facing discrimination. I think we have progressed since the 1920s, the 1950s, and the 1980s -- but that doesn't mean that all problems are gone.

What perpetuates the KKK are racial stereotypes that black people have because of their reputation for rioting when they get angry, and for the high crime rates in their neighborhoods, people who put on the hood don't feel safe around black people, they weren't around during slavery and could care less if their ancestors were slaves or that their skin is black. Everytime there is another race riot, more white people decide to put on the Hood because they don't feel safe, and what to black people do when they perceive racism? They riot, it is a vicious cycle and it doesn't end so long as each side goads the other, that is why it has lasted 155 years, we're they all sent to Africa right after the Civil War there would be no racial stereotype about black people. There would be no KKK, and if black people choose to immigrate here from Africa, they would perceive no racism, and white people would have no reason to fear them, racism could have ended 20 years after the Civil War instead of lasting 155 years and still perpetuating itself by reinforcing stereotypes on both sides.

It's not going to end so long as both sides keep racism alive, do you want it to end, or do you want it to go on ad infinitum? How about in 2000 years after people have forgotten about slavery, racism is kept alive by people meeting other's stereotypes? Blacks continue to riot because they are angry about racist, and whites continue to be racist because they don't like blacks rioting.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on July 08, 2020, 09:55:12 PM
Even if the nation fails to balkanize, the Burn Loot Murder riots will result in increased segregation. Calls for increased "bipoc" safe spaces at colleges, including fully segregated dorms and social activities, will lead to greater workplace and neighborhood segregation. If liberals succeed with their "defund the police" push, those cities will see significant flight of their middle class (of all colors).

Multiculturalism only "works" in places of perceived safety. If any group of people believe their families are unsafe in a mixed community, they will retreat to an area of perceived safety which usually means a more homogeneous community.

When schools reopen, I expect we will hear about significant campus violence - especially in junior and high school - because kids mimic adults. Kids see the BLM message is "kill whitey" and "violence is good". This will result in increased home schooling, private school enrollment and families moving into "less diverse" school districts. Plus, as most teachers are moron liberals, the outrageous level of indoctrination is going to cause more parents to revolt and retreat.

This is an entirely bad outcome for our nation.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 09, 2020, 12:49:14 AM
I'd love to balkanized them without land. After all, when Mexican Immigrants come to the United States, they don't bring Mexican land with them, they only bring themselves. If they hate America, and judging from the statues they turn down they do, then they should leave and leave us in peace! If they refuse, we should kick them out, either that or go to prison for destruction of property. We have a right to peace, safety, and security, and Black Lives Matter wants to deny us that right, they say defund the police, that puts our backs to the wall and forces us to fight! They don't want to compromise so we live in peace, then I cannot tolerate no peace!
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 09, 2020, 02:28:23 PM
Regarding Montana stats:

(1) I chose Montana semi-arbitrarily because it is the state with the lowest percentage of black people in the country (0.67%). The intended point was an example about how lacking black people doesn't necessarily make it better for crime, and it is true that Montana has a higher murder rate than New York which has 15% blacks.

(2) Details about homicide vs assault or 2014 vs 2016 seem like quibbling to me. I grabbed the most easily available stats from search. In general, I consider homicide to be the most reliable point for cross-comparison, because it is less ambiguous compared to assault or some other crimes. Authorities can vary in what they prosecute as assault, but murder is murder. However, the Montana report didn't include homicide-only breakdown by race.

(3) In general, predominantly-black inner cities are by far the most crime-ridden areas of the country - like in New Orleans, St Louis, Baltimore, and Chicago. But I don't think that inherently means that blacks are genetically inclined to crime. More broadly than those inner cities, the percentage of black people in a region doesn't accurately predict the crime rate. The problems of those inner cities have a history that is tied up with the War on Drugs and housing policies.

(4) Crime rates do not vary simply, and it is not the case that either Democratic or Republican leadership uniformly means better crime stats. Crime stats are complicated, and vary according to different principles with both place and time. And the trends often are not the same as what the news tells us. Looking only at the four biggest cities, for example, we see a huge decrease in homicide rate from the 1990s in New York and Los Angeles -- while Houston less so, and Chicago has recently gone back to it's 1990 levels. But again, note that these biggest cities aren't where the highest rates are.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4641[/ATTACH]
Source: https://www.thetrace.org/2017/01/chicago-murder-rate-fatal-shootings/
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 09, 2020, 02:39:52 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138673
Regarding Montana stats:

(1) I chose Montana semi-arbitrarily because it is the state with the lowest percentage of black people in the country (0.67%). The intended point was an example about how lacking black people doesn't necessarily make it better for crime, and it is true that Montana has a higher murder rate than New York which has 15% blacks.

(2) Details about homicide vs assault or 2014 vs 2016 seem like quibbling to me. I grabbed the most easily available stats from search. In general, I consider homicide to be the most reliable point for cross-comparison, because it is less ambiguous compared to assault or some other crimes. Authorities can vary in what they prosecute as assault, but murder is murder. However, the Montana report didn't include homicide-only breakdown by race.

(3) In general, predominantly-black inner cities are by far the most crime-ridden areas of the country - like in New Orleans, St Louis, Baltimore, and Chicago. But I don't think that inherently means that blacks are genetically inclined to crime. More broadly than those inner cities, the percentage of black people in a region doesn't accurately predict the crime rate. The problems of those inner cities have a history that is tied up with the War on Drugs and housing policies.

(4) Crime rates do not vary simply, and it is not the case that either Democratic or Republican leadership uniformly means better crime stats. Crime stats are complicated, and vary according to different principles with both place and time. And the trends often are not the same as what the news tells us. Looking only at the four biggest cities, for example, we see a huge decrease in homicide rate from the 1990s in New York and Los Angeles -- while Houston less so, and Chicago has recently gone back to it's 1990 levels. But again, note that these biggest cities aren't where the highest rates are.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4641[/ATTACH]
Source: https://www.thetrace.org/2017/01/chicago-murder-rate-fatal-shootings/


Slavery happened 155 years ago, and yet crime is still a problem in black communities. What about black communities in Africa, is crime a problem there? Is the fact that blacks are taught in history class that their ancestors were slaves, make them more likely to commit a crime out of a sense of revenge? And what about the war on drugs, no one is forcing them to take illegal drugs, do black people have a genetic predisposition to snort coke or to smoke crack? The war on drugs is portrayed as discriminatory on black people, so I guess the argument is made that they just can't help themselves because they were born that way.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 09, 2020, 02:54:39 PM
1. You said whitest state.  It is not.  Or is everyone who is not black white to you?  Also, in the montana crime report you posted they actually had a lower  murder rate for 2014 than the FBI report had, and that rate was lower than New York's for 2014.  I have no idea which is right.  
2. Homicide is not assault.  Your 2016 report contradicts the numbers you were promoting in the 2014 report.  If you present the facts as facts, you need to at least have them be consistent.  If you want a breakdown by race, it is very easy to get by using the census numbers and homicide numbers for a given year, which that would be for the entire nation and then calculate the per 100k rate.  You say quibbling then use two reports (that contradict one another for 2014) and use assault as a metric while talking homicide, and now are defending it?  I want to take you at face value, to do that, I have to assume you just didnt bother reading the montana report AT ALL, or you would not have linked a report that directly contradicts your point about Montana having a higher rate of homicide than New York.

3.I need you to explain to me how arresting people for crack cocaine has made people kill one another, over crack cocaine.   I can get that red lining can cause a concentration in an area, but the fact is, subsidized housing is the "red line" these days.  Very liberal and right minded white folks (and all other flavors too) like to concentrate the subsidized housing to specific areas.  I did not do it, some liberals did it, and continue doing it.   Regarding genetic predispositions, you are arguing a straw man.  I have neither said or alluded to any such nonsense.   As for the percentages of Black people in an area predicting levels of crime....WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HOMICIDE.   I have no idea if it can predict the level of homicide, but as the rate of homicide varies DRASTICALLY from one end of the spectrum (black people) to the other end (asians) I cannot make such a bold statement as to say there is no predictive quality to such a thing.  Perhaps you could link another report you did not bother to read?

4. No one has said city size has jack to do with homicide rate.  The same war on drugs and crime bill I see liberals cry constantly about had a DIRECT impact in reducing crime in almost all major cities.  Probably due to the hiring of a lot more police officers, as well as stiffer sentences.  Guiliani was in New york as well.   I think you know why the homicide rate fell.  The same hammer that came down is now one that I guess was racist, and you also claim caused MORE crime in certain neighborhoods.  That seems to be untrue given that for all those cities it is lower than when that racist crime bill went through.   The fact ONE republican led city in the USA is in the top 30 regarding homicide rate sort of says there is a bit of a trend there.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 09, 2020, 03:12:43 PM
I see your DNA comments are a response to a rhetorical question from Tom.  I also agree that I too think it is not a product of DNA with regards to way out of proportion homicide.  Perhaps a look at the homicide rate of somewhere like Nigeria, where black people are not a minority and subject to racist red lining as well as a war on drugs to drive them to homicide would be good to take a look at?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 09, 2020, 03:50:18 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138575
What perpetuates the KKK are racial stereotypes that black people have because of their reputation for rioting when they get angry, and for the high crime rates in their neighborhoods, people who put on the hood don't feel safe around black people, they weren't around during slavery and could care less if their ancestors were slaves or that their skin is black. Everytime there is another race riot, more white people decide to put on the Hood because they don't feel safe, and what to black people do when they perceive racism? They riot, it is a vicious cycle and it doesn't end so long as each side goads the other, that is why it has lasted 155 years, we're they all sent to Africa right after the Civil War there would be no racial stereotype about black people. There would be no KKK, and if black people choose to immigrate here from Africa, they would perceive no racism, and white people would have no reason to fear them, racism could have ended 20 years after the Civil War instead of lasting 155 years and still perpetuating itself by reinforcing stereotypes on both sides.
Even if you think that it's a "both sides" situation in 2020, surely you don't think that in 1865 it was a "both sides" situation?? What do you think would have happened if, after the Civil War, black people had just behaved themselves and not rioted? Would the former slave owners immediately have welcomed them as equals?

I think any reading of history shows that it is *not* riots that motivated white behavior. Indeed, the earlier race riots weren't black people rioting. Rather, it was white people rioting against blacks -- like in 1908 Springfield or 1921 Tulsa.


Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138575
It's not going to end so long as both sides keep racism alive, do you want it to end, or do you want it to go on ad infinitum? How about in 2000 years after people have forgotten about slavery, racism is kept alive by people meeting other's stereotypes? Blacks continue to riot because they are angry about racist, and whites continue to be racist because they don't like blacks rioting.
Historically, I think it's clear that racial tensions are better than they were 100 years ago, or 50 years ago. Over time, I think that intermarriage will be an increasing factor - particularly in the modern era since it became universally legal. White and black populations have been blending, and that will continue to be the case.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 09, 2020, 04:04:02 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138406
We need peace in this country, not their endless violence! Is there some reason that they can't behave themselves, is it in their DNA? I don't know why they constantly excuse themselves for committing crimes, and then complain about a disproportionate number of them being in prison, they want to be excused more for committing crimes because of the color of their skin. My problem with them is their behavior, and they pretend it's because of their skin color. How do we end this violence?

Quote from: oggsmash;1138681
I see your DNA comments are a response to a rhetorical question from Tom.  I also agree that I too think it is not a product of DNA with regards to way out of proportion homicide.  Perhaps a look at the homicide rate of somewhere like Nigeria, where black people are not a minority and subject to racist red lining as well as a war on drugs to drive them to homicide would be good to take a look at?
Yes, the DNA comment was to Tom, not to you. (quoted above) As for your suggestion, Nigeria currently has a higher murder rate than the U.S. -- but the murder rate varies considerably for different countries in Africa, as well as over time. Some countries have a lower rate than the U.S., while some have higher. I don't think any of that shows anything about DNA. There is clearly a lot of variance due to social conditions.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 09, 2020, 04:10:06 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138703
Yes, the DNA comment was to Tom, not to you. (quoted above) As for your suggestion, Nigeria currently has a higher murder rate than the U.S. -- but the murder rate varies considerably for different countries in Africa, as well as over time. Some countries have a lower rate than the U.S., while some have higher. I don't think any of that shows anything about DNA. There is clearly a lot of variance due to social conditions.

  I wonder how the rate in Nigeria compares to the African American rate of homicide?  That would be a good metric perhaps.  I have no idea what sort of social conditions there are in Nigeria, and for all I know there are tribal rivalries all over the place in Nigeria that do create situations of racism and ethnic bigotry.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 09, 2020, 04:20:50 PM
Well I think it may not be disernable,  I see things like WHO estimates for some nations homicide rates, and that seems really sketchy given their track records.  In any event, on to the idea of balkanization.  It seems the NFAC was all for a separation.  It seems extremes on the right and left can agree on something.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 09, 2020, 04:50:38 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138696
What do you think would have happened if, after the Civil War, black people had just behaved themselves and not rioted? Would the former slave owners immediately have welcomed them as equals?

If they rioted they would have been put down by an uncaring police with no federal oversight and an uncaring public. They riot now because they CAN. Again first world problems.
Quote from: jhkim;1138696
Historically, I think it's clear that racial tensions are better than they were 100 years ago, or 50 years ago. Over time, I think that intermarriage will be an increasing factor - particularly in the modern era since it became universally legal. White and black populations have been blending, and that will continue to be the case.

I find that rhetoric pretty disgusting as I said before. You would rather have no differences at all then conflict. It's a nihilistic detached outlook that's immensely culturally imperialist. Or whatever the closer term would be.
And I don't advocate for a genetics outlook at all for crime rates or the like.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 09, 2020, 05:19:43 PM
Quote from: jhkim
Historically, I think it's clear that racial tensions are better than they were 100 years ago, or 50 years ago. Over time, I think that intermarriage will be an increasing factor - particularly in the modern era since it became universally legal. White and black populations have been blending, and that will continue to be the case.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138712
I find that rhetoric pretty disgusting as I said before. You would rather have no differences at all then conflict. It's a nihilistic detached outlook that's immensely culturally imperialist. Or whatever the closer term would be.
And I don't advocate for a genetics outlook at all for crime rates or the like.
Sorry, I don't recall the previous discussion. Being of mixed race myself and knowing a lot of other mixed-race friends and family, I don't think it's something to lament.

That said, it doesn't mean that all differences are or should be erased. People can retain distinctiveness even given intermarriage. I think it's great to maintain those differences. My friend Michael just married a Korean-American woman. (Sadly, they had to cancel their wedding ceremony because of shelter-in-place.) He passes for white, but he has a black grandfather and still talks excitedly about black culture. In broader terms, I like the idea of keeping alive cultural distinctiveness. For example, there's been effort in recent decades to keep the Welsh language alive in the UK, which seems cool to me.

But even while retaining distinctiveness, once there is more of a spectrum of blended race, it will be harder to maintain the sharp lines of hatred between black and white.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 09, 2020, 05:41:56 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138723
Sorry, I don't recall the previous discussion. Being of mixed race myself and knowing a lot of other mixed-race friends and family, I don't think it's something to lament.

I have nothing against mixed-race people. Technically, I'm a racially mixed mush of eastern Europe, but I am 75% Jewish (the least Jewish genes amongst my siblings). I also hate bringing up Jewishness as a talking point though. It's the fetishism that puts me off. Its ultimate fetishism by the left that really knocked me out of being left-leaning myself.
As for the conversation we had before I bemoaned all culture becoming a mush with nothing anybody holds sacred and at that moment you supported mush if it meant less conflict. I find that position somewhat hypocritical and self-righteous since it puts not having conflict as the primary virtue. You're doing your own preferences a favor while favoring diminishing others you find non-valuable.
I do not find myself erring with oggsmash. I feel he has a ton of pent up rage that's being unproductively channeled in directions I find will end up more disastrous (especially to conservatism) in the long run. However, I completely understand where it's coming from.

I respect your intellectual honesty (unlike deaddm or whatever his handle is), but I find your worldview to be disastrously naive. And naivete can be just as lethal or killer as cruelty (genocidal even). It is kind but comes from...well...A very nearsighted perspective.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Snowman0147 on July 09, 2020, 05:52:58 PM
You guys are not going to believe this.  The supreme court just gave half of Oklahoma to the native Americans.

Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 09, 2020, 05:56:46 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;1138737
You guys are not going to believe this.  The supreme court just gave half of Oklahoma to the native Americans.

This is backward Shadowrun.

Edit: However Tim pool is a clickbaiter. I doubt it means what he actually said.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 09, 2020, 06:23:10 PM
Quote from: jhkim
Sorry, I don't recall the previous discussion. Being of mixed race myself and knowing a lot of other mixed-race friends and family, I don't think it's something to lament.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138732
I have nothing against mixed-race people. Technically, I'm a racially mixed mush of eastern Europe, but I am 75% Jewish (the least Jewish genes amongst my siblings). I also hate bringing up Jewishness as a talking point though. It's the fetishism that puts me off. Its ultimate fetishism by the left that really knocked me out of being left-leaning myself.
Yeah, I can understand problems about bringing up Jewishness as a talking point, because I agree it can be fetishized. At the same time, I think especially in online conversations, it helps to bring in personal perspective, because it's easy to fall into just treating the other person as a faceless opponent representing the opposition. So I hope I'm not fetishizing anything about your Jewishness, but I appreciate helping to picture you as a real person I'm talking to.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138732
As for the conversation we had before I bemoaned all culture becoming a mush with nothing anybody holds sacred and at that moment you supported mush if it meant less conflict. I find that position somewhat hypocritical and self-righteous since it puts not having conflict as the primary virtue. You're doing your own preferences a favor while favoring diminishing others you find non-valuable.
Ah, now I recall that conversation, in general if not in exact detail. Among other things, though, it wasn't clear to me what you meant by mush. I don't recall exactly what I said, but it doesn't sound like my position to support mush because it means avoiding conflict. I'm opposed to violence like civil war or revolution, but I'm in favor of having conflict of ideas. In the context of intermarriage, for example, intermarriage tends to *create* conflict in the short term, at least. For example, I can see in my parents' wedding photos that both of their parents were displeased with the match.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 09, 2020, 06:50:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138742
Yeah, I can understand problems about bringing up Jewishness as a talking point, because I agree it can be fetishized. At the same time, I think especially in online conversations, it helps to bring in personal perspective, because it's easy to fall into just treating the other person as a faceless opponent representing the opposition. So I hope I'm not fetishizing anything about your Jewishness, but I appreciate helping to picture you as a real person I'm talking to.
To a certain extent, I'm only playing this card because it's one I think you understand more. While I only speak to myself, I value anonymity because it teaches people to value the argument and focus on making arguments focused on universal appeal, not the presenter.

So coming from eastern Europe, a sort of second world nation (though a small civil war has dipped it into mostly 3rd world): The positions being argued about in the USA are only possible in a nation with borderline nothing else to do. 'People called the cops because they said I looked mean' is a first world problem. 'Cultural removal has left this culture weak with no choice but to protest' is a first world problem.
People in my nation where effectively a vassal state for centuries, by choice, but one forced on them by circumstance. They were used and abused as well as culturally suppressed and erased as a vassal. And after gaining independence did fuck all with it, embraced corruption and apathy despite outside support (and on an individual level as well as a governmental level). But if they rioted or complained nobody would give a shit.

The very idea of riots or protests accomplishing things comes from a safety bubble where a caring public even exists, and where a rule of law is fundamentally on the side of the population to a large degree. At what point in time can claims of racism or discrimination be dismissed or treated as irrelevant? When can an individual or his culture be blamed? Because if you get more and more angry at smaller and smaller problems, you're going to smash the entire system which was the only thing that even gave time for those issues to even matter in any way on a public level.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 09, 2020, 07:52:07 PM
My rage is not that pent up, I generally get to blow it out fairly often.  But I did come across articles about how seattle decided to train its white employees as to how harmful their whiteness can be.  https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/seattle-holds-training-session-for-white-employees-aimed-at-affirming-their-complicity-in-racism-and-undoing-whiteness%3f_amp=true

   Better than pent up rage, I have only become a conservative in the past 6 years or so, once we decided dudes need to go to the bathroom with my daughter and me resisting that made me transphobic.  So the good news is, if I happen to toss some soy soaked liberal through a window, or on his head, I am not making a bad mark for conservatives, because I am not one, by their standards.  So no worries about giving the good conservatives a bad name.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 09, 2020, 08:03:02 PM
To that end of not being conservative, I will channel my ire in forming a fight club, Tyler Durden style.   I think we will skip the domestic terror missions though, and just stay within the bounds of self defense.  We will just expand from the normal punch, kick, throw, and choke and include tactical shooting, breaches and so forth.  Recruiting should be super easy given all these rowdy zoomers.

   Nice, peaceful, constructive focus of energy into activism.  Hell I should form it into a non profit.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 12:22:26 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1138696
Even if you think that it's a "both sides" situation in 2020, surely you don't think that in 1865 it was a "both sides" situation?? What do you think would have happened if, after the Civil War, black people had just behaved themselves and not rioted? Would the former slave owners immediately have welcomed them as equals?

I think any reading of history shows that it is *not* riots that motivated white behavior. Indeed, the earlier race riots weren't black people rioting. Rather, it was white people rioting against blacks -- like in 1908 Springfield or 1921 Tulsa.



Historically, I think it's clear that racial tensions are better than they were 100 years ago, or 50 years ago. Over time, I think that intermarriage will be an increasing factor - particularly in the modern era since it became universally legal. White and black populations have been blending, and that will continue to be the case.


I think you expect too much of people! The South was just defeated by the North, they lost a lot of their young sons fighting the North over the issue of slavery, you expect too much of the white people of the South to have no hard feelings after their defeat, after the burning of Atlanta by Sherman's army, something that Black Lives Matter has repeated in places in that same city.

The best thing would have been to send the freed blacks back to Africa, and the Federal government would buy them 40 acres there and a mule for each family. Racism would have ended in 20 years because there would have been no blacks to hate, no KKK would have formed because they would have had no cause, being deprived of the target of their racism. The freed slaves in Africa would have no white to blame for racism, they will be surrounded by members of their own race and they would succeed or fail by the seat of their brow, with no convenient white people to blame for holding them back.

As for mixed marriages, what's that supposed to do? You have something against people being white? People tend to marry their own race, all that rioting isn't going to encourage mixed marriages, as white women would be afraid to go into black neighborhoods for fear of being raped. If you were a white woman, would you want your children to belong to a racially disadvantaged group, maybe they will end up in jail, or they will join a gang selling drugs in the hood. Blacks identify with criminals much more than white people. George Floyd had an arrest record and was attempting to pass a counterfeit $20 bill when he was arrested and choked to death by that cop. I don't think that bad cop was worth all that rioting and defunding of police departments across the country, seems to be the liberals are trying to paint all cops with a broad brush because of that bad one doesn't it? I do 't want to have no police protection because all cops aren't perfect. A lot of cops are losing their jobs because of that bad one, treating people as a group rather than as individuals is a form of prejudice too whether it be cops or members of some race. Rioting, looting, and burning stores down doesn't lessen racism, it just gives the next generation another reason to hate.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 12:29:27 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138746
To a certain extent, I'm only playing this card because it's one I think you understand more. While I only speak to myself, I value anonymity because it teaches people to value the argument and focus on making arguments focused on universal appeal, not the presenter.

So coming from eastern Europe, a sort of second world nation (though a small civil war has dipped it into mostly 3rd world): The positions being argued about in the USA are only possible in a nation with borderline nothing else to do. 'People called the cops because they said I looked mean' is a first world problem. 'Cultural removal has left this culture weak with no choice but to protest' is a first world problem.
People in my nation where effectively a vassal state for centuries, by choice, but one forced on them by circumstance. They were used and abused as well as culturally suppressed and erased as a vassal. And after gaining independence did fuck all with it, embraced corruption and apathy despite outside support (and on an individual level as well as a governmental level). But if they rioted or complained nobody would give a shit.

The very idea of riots or protests accomplishing things comes from a safety bubble where a caring public even exists, and where a rule of law is fundamentally on the side of the population to a large degree. At what point in time can claims of racism or discrimination be dismissed or treated as irrelevant? When can an individual or his culture be blamed? Because if you get more and more angry at smaller and smaller problems, you're going to smash the entire system which was the only thing that even gave time for those issues to even matter in any way on a public level.

So long as there is freedom of thought, there will be racists. Racism comes to fear of the other, and so far, all this rioting and looting has given racists something to fear, the more blacks riot and commit crimes, the more reason whites will have to fear them. Rioting is counterproductive, if instead of rioting, they bought a one way ticket to Africa, the level of racism in this country would drop. You can't tell a white personmthere is nothing to fear while demonstrating that there is something to fear by rioting.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 12:34:52 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138757
My rage is not that pent up, I generally get to blow it out fairly often.  But I did come across articles about how seattle decided to train its white employees as to how harmful their whiteness can be.  https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/seattle-holds-training-session-for-white-employees-aimed-at-affirming-their-complicity-in-racism-and-undoing-whiteness%3f_amp=true

   Better than pent up rage, I have only become a conservative in the past 6 years or so, once we decided dudes need to go to the bathroom with my daughter and me resisting that made me transphobic.  So the good news is, if I happen to toss some soy soaked liberal through a window, or on his head, I am not making a bad mark for conservatives, because I am not one, by their standards.  So no worries about giving the good conservatives a bad name.

So I am white, I have no reason to feel guilty by being of the same race as people who owned slaves more than 155 years ago. The only problem whites have is that they tended to be more successful than other races and have taken advantage of that fact, other races simply lacked the opportunity but not the desire. Humans are humans
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 11:41:17 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1138696
Even if you think that it's a "both sides" situation in 2020, surely you don't think that in 1865 it was a "both sides" situation?? What do you think would have happened if, after the Civil War, black people had just behaved themselves and not rioted? Would the former slave owners immediately have welcomed them as equals?

I think any reading of history shows that it is *not* riots that motivated white behavior. Indeed, the earlier race riots weren't black people rioting. Rather, it was white people rioting against blacks -- like in 1908 Springfield or 1921 Tulsa.



Historically, I think it's clear that racial tensions are better than they were 100 years ago, or 50 years ago. Over time, I think that intermarriage will be an increasing factor - particularly in the modern era since it became universally legal. White and black populations have been blending, and that will continue to be the case.


Interestingly, I found this video about pressuring white women to date other races.

https://youtu.be/JYiNLi1tBuU.

This is a new pick up line, "I'm black, you got to date me, otherwise your racist!"
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 11:46:15 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138732
I have nothing against mixed-race people. Technically, I'm a racially mixed mush of eastern Europe, but I am 75% Jewish (the least Jewish genes amongst my siblings). I also hate bringing up Jewishness as a talking point though. It's the fetishism that puts me off. Its ultimate fetishism by the left that really knocked me out of being left-leaning myself.
As for the conversation we had before I bemoaned all culture becoming a mush with nothing anybody holds sacred and at that moment you supported mush if it meant less conflict. I find that position somewhat hypocritical and self-righteous since it puts not having conflict as the primary virtue. You're doing your own preferences a favor while favoring diminishing others you find non-valuable.
I do not find myself erring with oggsmash. I feel he has a ton of pent up rage that's being unproductively channeled in directions I find will end up more disastrous (especially to conservatism) in the long run. However, I completely understand where it's coming from.

I respect your intellectual honesty (unlike deaddm or whatever his handle is), but I find your worldview to be disastrously naive. And naivete can be just as lethal or killer as cruelty (genocidal even). It is kind but comes from...well...A very nearsighted perspective.


There is no Jewish race, no Aryan race either, those are made up races by the Nazis. Judaism is a belief system, and Jews that don't want to marry non Jews don't want the squabble with their spouse on what religion to bring up their children under. No one has any obligation to marry somebody to prove he or she is not a bigot.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 11:55:35 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138746
To a certain extent, I'm only playing this card because it's one I think you understand more. While I only speak to myself, I value anonymity because it teaches people to value the argument and focus on making arguments focused on universal appeal, not the presenter.

So coming from eastern Europe, a sort of second world nation (though a small civil war has dipped it into mostly 3rd world): The positions being argued about in the USA are only possible in a nation with borderline nothing else to do. 'People called the cops because they said I looked mean' is a first world problem. 'Cultural removal has left this culture weak with no choice but to protest' is a first world problem.
People in my nation where effectively a vassal state for centuries, by choice, but one forced on them by circumstance. They were used and abused as well as culturally suppressed and erased as a vassal. And after gaining independence did fuck all with it, embraced corruption and apathy despite outside support (and on an individual level as well as a governmental level). But if they rioted or complained nobody would give a shit.

The very idea of riots or protests accomplishing things comes from a safety bubble where a caring public even exists, and where a rule of law is fundamentally on the side of the population to a large degree. At what point in time can claims of racism or discrimination be dismissed or treated as irrelevant? When can an individual or his culture be blamed? Because if you get more and more angry at smaller and smaller problems, you're going to smash the entire system which was the only thing that even gave time for those issues to even matter in any way on a public level.


Are you from Ukraine by any chance? Eastern Europe is a very vague term, my wife is from Poland, and she considers her country to be a central European nation, the Eastern European and "2nd World" was imposed on them by the Russians and the Nazis in 1939 with two invading armies, one from the east and the other from the west. The Second World is dead, there is only the First World and the Third World, and two nations, Cuba and North Korea that take the idea of communism seriously. We do have a fascist Russia that is under the dictator Putin, but that is something different.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 10, 2020, 02:24:08 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138845
There is no Jewish race.

I guess the right thing to say is there are several? Ashkenazi. Our family took a genetics test for fun.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138847
Are you from Ukraine by any chance? Eastern Europe is a very vague term.
Yes from Ukraine.

Also hows Poland? I visited it a long time ago and found it pleasant.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 04:04:41 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138891
I guess the right thing to say is there are several? Ashkenazi. Our family took a genetics test for fun.


Yes from Ukraine.

Also hows Poland? I visited it a long time ago and found it pleasant.
Yep, it's a nice place, lots of pretty women too, a more culturally conservative place in Europe for a continent that is largely to the left of the United States. Poland can be compared to America's south when it comes to conservatism, though it is less diverse in races and ethnic groups, its cities are largely white in population, so for me it is hard to tell where the bad parts of town are. I had my wallet stolen by a white thief! A lot of the lower social dregs of Polish society are white people, there are some gypsies, you get some immigrants from Russia, there are a few visitors from Africa and China, but it's mostly white.

The immigrants from the middle east and north africa mostly don't go to Poland, they mostly travel to the UK, France, and Germany instead. Poland has remained largely white and European, the people who live in its cities look much the same as the people who live in the rural areas, unlike for instance in the United States. Poles will say their country is in central europe rather than eastern europe, as they point out that the mathematical geographic center of Europe is in Poland, most of eastern europe is taken up by just one country, Russia! Russia is the one country that is different from all the others in Europe, Russia is aggressive and militaristic, they spend a high proportion of their economic output on the military where most other European countries spend as little as possible, depending on the United States to save their bacon, so they make very tempting prizes for the Russians.

The Russians could hope to get a return on their military investment by conquering neighboring countries, mostly that is European countries, they don't seem interested in tangling with China or Iran, but the Europeans keep tempting them with their low military spending and lack of preparedness, their main war plan is to call upon the United States for help if they should be attacked. I think the German Chancellor Merkle should know better as she grew up in East Germany, but she doesn't seem to, I guess she is counting on the good ole USA to come to her rescue should she need rescuing.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 10, 2020, 05:01:26 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138746
To a certain extent, I'm only playing this card because it's one I think you understand more. While I only speak to myself, I value anonymity because it teaches people to value the argument and focus on making arguments focused on universal appeal, not the presenter.
That's cool. I also prefer to value the argument, but in practice, I find that anonymous Internet debate breaks down into ad-hominem at least as often as discussion with known people. I respect other people's anonymity, but it's not what I choose.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1138746
The very idea of riots or protests accomplishing things comes from a safety bubble where a caring public even exists, and where a rule of law is fundamentally on the side of the population to a large degree. At what point in time can claims of racism or discrimination be dismissed or treated as irrelevant? When can an individual or his culture be blamed? Because if you get more and more angry at smaller and smaller problems, you're going to smash the entire system which was the only thing that even gave time for those issues to even matter in any way on a public level.
I generally agree with you that outrage over smaller and smaller issues is a problem. I think social media especially encourages people to ever more outrage and clickbait. I don't think it will smash the entire system, but it's certainly making a lot of people's lives more miserable. That's independent of liberal/conservative.

On a side note,

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138928
The Russians could hope to get a return on their military investment by conquering neighboring countries, mostly that is European countries, they don't seem interested in tangling with China or Iran, but the Europeans keep tempting them with their low military spending and lack of preparedness, their main war plan is to call upon the United States for help if they should be attacked. I think the German Chancellor Merkle should know better as she grew up in East Germany, but she doesn't seem to, I guess she is counting on the good ole USA to come to her rescue should she need rescuing.
The UK and France are both nuclear powers on their own, with about 500 warheads between them. That's much less than the 6000 warheads the U.S. -- but really, I don't think it takes more than a dozen nuclear weapons to deter a country from invading you.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 06:18:20 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138956
That's cool. I also prefer to value the argument, but in practice, I find that anonymous Internet debate breaks down into ad-hominem at least as often as discussion with known people. I respect other people's anonymity, but it's not what I choose.


I generally agree with you that outrage over smaller and smaller issues is a problem. I think social media especially encourages people to ever more outrage and clickbait. I don't think it will smash the entire system, but it's certainly making a lot of people's lives more miserable. That's independent of liberal/conservative.

On a side note,


The UK and France are both nuclear powers on their own, with about 500 warheads between them. That's much less than the 6000 warheads the U.S. -- but really, I don't think it takes more than a dozen nuclear weapons to deter a country from invading you.

The proved quite useful in protecting South Vietnam from communist incursion and those nukes Ukraine had, stopped the Russians cold from invading that country and stealing land. You know Ukraine is the site of Chernobyl don't you?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 10, 2020, 06:23:16 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1138984
The proved quite useful in protecting South Vietnam from communist incursion and those nukes Ukraine had, stopped the Russians cold from invading that country and stealing land. You know Ukraine is the site of Chernobyl don't you?

  Pretty sure Ukraine has no nukes.  Belarus is the site of Chernobyl.   I think there is some treaty signed by several countries to act if Ukraine is invaded by a nuclear power, but like a restraining order, that paper is not worth shit when shots are fired.  Ukraine does have nuclear power plants though, and they are likely similar design to Chernobyl (which has shitty safety and max power, one of the biggest problems is graphite as a moderator, their attack subs have some REALLY unsafe shit going on).   But a nuclear plant is not a nuclear weapon.  No idea about Vietnam, and too lazy to google.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 10, 2020, 07:02:18 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138985
Pretty sure Ukraine has no nukes.  Belarus is the site of Chernobyl.   I think there is some treaty signed by several countries to act if Ukraine is invaded by a nuclear power, but like a restraining order, that paper is not worth shit when shots are fired.  Ukraine does have nuclear power plants though, and they are likely similar design to Chernobyl (which has shitty safety and max power, one of the biggest problems is graphite as a moderator, their attack subs have some REALLY unsafe shit going on).   But a nuclear plant is not a nuclear weapon.  No idea about Vietnam, and too lazy to google.
Chernobyl is in Ukraine, but you are close in that it is right on the edge of the Belarussian border. You are correct that Ukraine has no nuclear weapons, though. Ukraine did have a bunch of Soviet nuclear weapons deployed within its borders, but in 1994, it agreed to sign the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) and destroyed all those nuclear weapons in exchange for favorable treaty rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine

South Vietnam definitely never had nuclear weapons. Even if it did have them, it's questionable whether it would use nuclear weapons against other Vietnamese. Nuclear weapons aren't much use in a civil war -- since it would immediately turn all of the populace against the side using them. However, they are a deterrent against foreign invasion.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 10, 2020, 07:07:47 PM
Yeah couldnt remember, the Town I grew up in had kids from Belarus live here a few months of the year  back when they screwed the pooch, to allow the kids time away from the irradiated areas because I guess the village they were from got the worst of the contamination.   I conflated it, and it has been since '92 that we studied the incident report in detail.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 07:33:10 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138998
Chernobyl is in Ukraine, but you are close in that it is right on the edge of the Belarussian border. You are correct that Ukraine has no nuclear weapons, though. Ukraine did have a bunch of Soviet nuclear weapons deployed within its borders, but in 1994, it agreed to sign the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) and destroyed all those nuclear weapons in exchange for favorable treaty rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine

South Vietnam definitely never had nuclear weapons. Even if it did have them, it's questionable whether it would use nuclear weapons against other Vietnamese. Nuclear weapons aren't much use in a civil war -- since it would immediately turn all of the populace against the side using them. However, they are a deterrent against foreign invasion.

The united states had nuclear weapons and was right there and didn't use them, so it raises they question of using them as a substitute for conventional military force if the United States didn't use them to defend South Vietnam.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 07:39:07 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138999
Yeah couldnt remember, the Town I grew up in had kids from Belarus live here a few months of the year  back when they screwed the pooch, to allow the kids time away from the irradiated areas because I guess the village they were from got the worst of the contamination.   I conflated it, and it has been since '92 that we studied the incident report in detail.

Germany doesn't have nukes anymore than South Vietnam had, and Germany is not spending enough on its military, Germany of all countries should know what happens to countries that are too stingy on military spending like France and Poland in the 1930s and 40s. Merkle lived in a communist occupied country for half her life and she still doesn't get it! Why couldn't Germans be thus dumb during World War II, the smart ones were fighting our soldiers, and then they put on their stupid caps when they became our allies.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 10, 2020, 07:44:48 PM
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1139006
Germany doesn't have nukes anymore than South Vietnam had, and Germany is not spending enough on its military, Germany of all countries should know what happens to countries that are too stingy on military spending like France and Poland in the 1930s and 40s. Merkle lived in a communist occupied country for half her life and she still doesn't get it! Why couldn't Germans be thus dumb during World War II, the smart ones were fighting our soldiers, and then they put on their stupid caps when they became our allies.

  Merkle IS a communist.  She gets it.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on July 10, 2020, 08:05:38 PM
Quote from: jhkim
South Vietnam definitely never had nuclear weapons. Even if it did have them, it's questionable whether it would use nuclear weapons against other Vietnamese. Nuclear weapons aren't much use in a civil war -- since it would immediately turn all of the populace against the side using them. However, they are a deterrent against foreign invasion.
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1139004
The united states had nuclear weapons and was right there and didn't use them, so it raises they question of using them as a substitute for conventional military force if the United States didn't use them to defend South Vietnam.
Isn't that what I said? I'm not sure I understand the difference in our positions. I agree that in Vietnam, as a civil war, nuclear weapons are of questionable utility. However, I do think that they are a deterrent. For example, if Iraq had had nuclear weapons in 2003, I don't think that we would have invaded them. It was considered crucial to prevent them from gaining nuclear weapons.

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1139006
Germany doesn't have nukes anymore than South Vietnam had, and Germany is not spending enough on its military, Germany of all countries should know what happens to countries that are too stingy on military spending like France and Poland in the 1930s and 40s. Merkle lived in a communist occupied country for half her life and she still doesn't get it! Why couldn't Germans be thus dumb during World War II, the smart ones were fighting our soldiers, and then they put on their stupid caps when they became our allies.
We've spent decades encouraging both Germany and Japan *not* to build up their militaries -- it was part of the treaties we forced on them after winning WWII. We still have something like a hundred thousand troops stationed in those two countries. The main reason that they depend on us for protection is because we forced our protection on them. That said, I am in favor of steadily withdrawing U.S. troops from constantly occupying foreign countries.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 10, 2020, 08:28:21 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138956
That's cool. I also prefer to value the argument, but in practice, I find that anonymous Internet debate breaks down into ad-hominem at least as often as discussion with known people. I respect other people's anonymity, but it's not what I choose.

That's pretty much the case, yeah, but it equalizes things to at least a certain degree.
Quote
I think social media especially encourages people to ever more outrage and clickbait.

Social media only accelerated a ball that was already rolling. Universities and liberal media encourage this sort of thing allot, and by targetting groups of insecure young adults and inundating them with agitprop by intellectually dishonest cowards.

My problem with so much liberalism (progressivism especially and SJWs in specific) is that it doesn't see itself just as another value system (capable of infringing and destroying other valuable value systems) but just as a purely objective non-value state. By positioning itself as such it allows its followers to avoid real examination of their own thought process. It has just enough self-analysis for self-validation, but not any for self-doubt.
Quote
I don't think it will smash the entire system, but it's certainly making a lot of people's lives more miserable.

Anything in large enough quantities can smash things.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 10, 2020, 11:15:56 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1139016
Isn't that what I said? I'm not sure I understand the difference in our positions. I agree that in Vietnam, as a civil war, nuclear weapons are of questionable utility. However, I do think that they are a deterrent. For example, if Iraq had had nuclear weapons in 2003, I don't think that we would have invaded them. It was considered crucial to prevent them from gaining nuclear weapons.


We've spent decades encouraging both Germany and Japan *not* to build up their militaries -- it was part of the treaties we forced on them after winning WWII. We still have something like a hundred thousand troops stationed in those two countries. The main reason that they depend on us for protection is because we forced our protection on them. That said, I am in favor of steadily withdrawing U.S. troops from constantly occupying foreign countries.

The Germans that started World War II are now mostly dead  and I think the Germans who are alive should learn from the history their dead relatives have created. All countries have histories they are not entirely proud of. The Germans had Nazis, we have had slavery, but just as I don't feel responsible for slavery, I don't think most Germans should feel responsible for World War II or the Holocaust, I despise those Germans that did that, but those Germans are dead or soon will be, the Germans that are alive today are not those Germans, that was another century and it is time we turn the page on the history book.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 10, 2020, 11:32:41 PM
To a certain degree living in perpetual self-loathing is unhealthy. I mean there is genocide in Judaic lore. Take it on the chin and move on.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on July 11, 2020, 04:22:00 AM
Quote from: Snowman0147;1138737
The supreme court just gave half of Oklahoma to the native Americans.

LOL. We're approaching peak stupidity.

I wonder if the US citizens in east Oklahoma are ready to become subjects of a stone age tribe.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tom Kalbfus on July 11, 2020, 01:37:40 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1139069
LOL. We're approaching peak stupidity.

I wonder if the US citizens in east Oklahoma are ready to become subjects of a stone age tribe.

We don't need to create enemy countries by balkanizing ourselves for the benefit of liberal anti-Americans, that is what Israel did with regard to the Palestinians, did it buy them any peace?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on July 11, 2020, 09:50:06 PM
The USA balkanizing is much different issue than Israel/Palestine, but I can agree there could be some parallels.

Would a balkanized America be peaceful? Good question.

Much depends on the division of the previous nation's wealth and its natural resources.

This Oklahoma situation is quite strange and it will be interesting to see how it develops. It's quite possible it will be a nothingburger, just an odd legal ruling with extremely limited effect, or it could become a culture war flashpoint.

I'm surprised we haven't heard commentary from US citizens whose homes are now legally considered tribal lands and not part of the USA anymore. Maybe it will become the next Las Vegas?
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on July 12, 2020, 11:36:38 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1139069
LOL. We're approaching peak stupidity.

I wonder if the US citizens in east Oklahoma are ready to become subjects of a stone age tribe.


Silicon is found in stones, but you shouldn't confuse it with "silicon age" because that has very different connotations.

You can visit the Muscogee Nation website @ https://www.mcn-nsn.gov/
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on July 12, 2020, 02:24:09 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1139211
The USA balkanizing is much different issue than Israel/Palestine, but I can agree there could be some parallels.

Would a balkanized America be peaceful? Good question.

Much depends on the division of the previous nation's wealth and its natural resources.

This Oklahoma situation is quite strange and it will be interesting to see how it develops. It's quite possible it will be a nothingburger, just an odd legal ruling with extremely limited effect, or it could become a culture war flashpoint.

I'm surprised we haven't heard commentary from US citizens whose homes are now legally considered tribal lands and not part of the USA anymore. Maybe it will become the next Las Vegas?


The Oklahoma ruling doesn't undermine the state's ownership. In practice, it means that only the Muscogee Nation can prosecute Muscogee criminals. So all those criminals have to be extradited now, if that makes sense.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 13, 2020, 04:01:26 AM
Greetings!

Here we have a Texas cowboy, Ryan Upchurch, doing a funny video about how true Americans need to stand up and speak out against BLM and other insanity!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 13, 2020, 06:14:12 AM
Greetings!

This young woman, Sydney Watson, has had enough of the radical Left. Very interesting and refreshing commentary from this young woman. She encourages people to stand up, and fight back! I believe she is also an immigrant from Australia!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 13, 2020, 06:50:57 PM
Greetings!

Two courageous Police Officers were ambushed and murdered in Texas! Watch the video for more. Also, the grieving young daughter of one of the murdered police officers posted a tribute online, saying Blue Lives Matter!--and she was harassed and slammed by a horde of BLM scum online.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on July 17, 2020, 10:35:02 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1139211
The USA balkanizing is much different issue than Israel/Palestine, but I can agree there could be some parallels.

Would a balkanized America be peaceful? Good question.

Much depends on the division of the previous nation's wealth and its natural resources.

This Oklahoma situation is quite strange and it will be interesting to see how it develops. It's quite possible it will be a nothingburger, just an odd legal ruling with extremely limited effect, or it could become a culture war flashpoint.

I'm surprised we haven't heard commentary from US citizens whose homes are now legally considered tribal lands and not part of the USA anymore. Maybe it will become the next Las Vegas?


Greetings!

"It's quite possible it will be a nothingburger,":D Hilarious!

I can't imagine the Supreme Court just *expanding* the jurisdiction of an Indian Reservation with the stroke of a pen! I'm also thinking there has to be some level of Congressional and even Executive involvement, because the Supreme Court is not allowed to change, create, or otherwise alter US Government treaties--such is beyond their power, and is almost entirely a Presidential prerogative, with some involvement of Congress. That is dealing with foreign policy. As I also recall, the court cannot change boundaries of states, either. Such would be a violation of states' rights.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: crkrueger on July 24, 2020, 01:26:11 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1140351
Greetings!

"It's quite possible it will be a nothingburger,":D Hilarious!

I can't imagine the Supreme Court just *expanding* the jurisdiction of an Indian Reservation with the stroke of a pen! I'm also thinking there has to be some level of Congressional and even Executive involvement, because the Supreme Court is not allowed to change, create, or otherwise alter US Government treaties--such is beyond their power, and is almost entirely a Presidential prerogative, with some involvement of Congress. That is dealing with foreign policy. As I also recall, the court cannot change boundaries of states, either. Such would be a violation of states' rights.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


From what I understand, that's the whole point.  Congress didn't nullify the treaty when creating the state the same way they laughed and tore up every other treaty we made with Native nations.  The key language wasn't there, Congress dropped the ball.  The SC didn't change anything, just ruled what was already there.  Since Congress never transferred the legal jurisdiction of those old Native lands to the State of Oklahoma, they're still under Federal Jurisdiction Judically, or the Muskogee Tribe.

The real issue is going to be with resources, as most of Oklahoma's gas and oil industry lies now on arguably Native Land.

Of course Congress could just come up with a new law to fix it, so it makes legal what everyone thought the borders were before, but good luck getting a Dem to vote on voiding a treaty in 2020.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on July 24, 2020, 11:41:01 AM
I would ask what is the Tribe's policy on pedos?   Because if it is something extremely harsh and barbaric, we can all call it a win if they have jurisdiction over the dude.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2020, 11:56:09 AM
Quote from: oggsmash;1141598
I would ask what is the Tribe's policy on pedos?   Because if it is something extremely harsh and barbaric, we can all call it a win if they have jurisdiction over the dude.

The Woke tribe? They love pedos... Oh, wait you were talking about The Tribe the judge just gave half of a state right? Sorry my bad.
Title: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on August 09, 2020, 01:46:26 AM
Greetings!



"From the Dust we were taken, and to the Dust we shall return."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DrCruel on February 19, 2022, 06:20:03 PM
The people who run the USA are not divided. They do not care what the general public want. The main factions are the limousine Left, represented by the ruling elite in the Democrat Party, and the Left fascists, who promote a Marxist friendly form of racism in the name of fighting racism and are trying very hard to overthrow the present government. For the most part, the limousine Left of the Democratic Party use these Left fascists in much the same way they once used the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist groups - as a militant faction to suppress dissent and to engage in extra-legal punishment of their political enemies, such as small business owners.

The limousine Left has their vision of the future, which will secure the power of this group for at least two or three generations. The rebellion of Trump, a long time Democrat supporter of the Clintons, demonstrated less the power of the Right so much as their irrelevance (a rebellious Democrat was literally able to take over their party). The victory of the Affordable Care Act and many other policies, and the complete impotence of the Trump administration underlines the utter powerlessness of Republicans and the tax peasants who support them. The January 6th "insurrection," which was so brutally and successful put down compared to the months of similar "mostly peaceful" riots, looting, arsons and murders of their Left fascist equivalent demonstrate the utter powerlessness of the alt-Right. During the Trump administration, the State Department simply ignored the instructions of the executive branch. The public school monopoly, dead set against charter schools let alone school choice, ostracized the Department of Education under Betsy DeVos. Black Lives Matter went out of their way to support the segregated school system enforced by the public schools. And so on.

It doesn't matter what you want. It matters what the main players want. The limousine Left wants to keep and expand their power base. The Left fascists want to overthrow the limousine Left. The Republicans are being co-opted by a rival Democrat family to the Clintons. The Democrats will continue to win elections, if necessary by creative vote counting and fast tracking illegal immigrants to battleground regions. The Left fascists will try to confound this process, but whenever they engage in unauthorized violence they will be treated like the Proud Boys. And that is that.

George Carlin had a good approximation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dY4WlxO6i0

Now add that the socialists are in league with the multinationals. It's what we call the Asian model of Marxism. Remember that the real purpose of socialism, right from the very beginning is and always has been the enrichment and empowerment of a small socialist elite, all at the expense of everyone else. The end state is something called "managerialism." For further details on what this system is and how it relates to the evolution of modern economies and politics, see "The Managerial Revolution" by James Burnham.

It's good that so many people here are RPG veterans, because this makes it easy to explain the mindset of the limousine Left. Did you ever run a high level party that "owned" a region of the gaming world? If a player got hurt or died, they would get the best healing potions and magic possible or get resurrected, regardless of the cost. Indeed, some of their gear cost more than the annual wealth output of whole villages. Your players might have been benevolent, or perhaps ran their peasant mobs like the players in KODT, but regardless they felt they were doing the best for "their" people. Any alternate forms of power would be identified and crushed, and a convenience excuse contrived, because those high level players knew what was best for their peasants. Perhaps they kept a convenient group of hounds or orcs or whatnot around, just in case the peasants got restless and needed a lesson in obedient servitude. And so on. Kinda like Arthur and Co in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Or like modern Cuba or Nicaragua.

So no balkanization, unless the high level players start fighting over the loot. And unless you figure out real fast how to get into power as a Democrat member of Congress or a Democrat governor, you're going to get to roleplay one of the tax peasants. Won't that be fun. Enjoy.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jmarso on April 11, 2022, 06:20:00 PM
Here ya go. Made this up years ago.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jmarso on April 11, 2022, 06:22:22 PM
Slightly different version. ;)
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Chris24601 on April 11, 2022, 08:03:13 PM
Indiana is too conservative to be in the Liberal zone. It’s basically the Middle Finger of the South.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on April 11, 2022, 08:10:48 PM
Indiana is too conservative to be in the Liberal zone. It’s basically the Middle Finger of the South.

Don't waste your breath. Anyone who claims that the southeast United States is going to become the "New Confederacy" has their head so far up their ass that they can taste their own heartbeat.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jmarso on April 12, 2022, 12:45:51 AM

Don't waste your breath. Anyone who claims that the southeast United States is going to become the "New Confederacy" has their head so far up their ass that they can taste their own heartbeat.

FFS, grow a sense of humor. Please. Before you stroke out.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on April 12, 2022, 05:27:21 AM

Don't waste your breath. Anyone who claims that the southeast United States is going to become the "New Confederacy" has their head so far up their ass that they can taste their own heartbeat.

FFS, grow a sense of humor. Please. Before you stroke out.

I live in the South and every time I hear that "The South Is Going To Rise Again", it has come from a person who has been ate up with stupid. Sorry that is you this time.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Chris24601 on April 12, 2022, 08:33:54 AM
I don’t need the whole south to secede, just a contiguous line from here to Florida. ;D

But you misunderstand if you think it’s going to be some formal secession decided by state governments.

We are already seeing a separation or cleaving between the actual productive parts of the country and the locust class. The groundwork is being laid for a parallel economy where the woke and unwoke have fewer and fewer interactions with one another (they don’t buy our products and we don’t by theirs) and state governments are more and more ignoring the blatherings coming from DC (it used to just be the Blue-side who ignored federal laws they didn’t like, but now the Red-side is getting in on the act).

Now throw inflation, food shortages and likely loss of the dollar’s status as reserve currency and we are headed for a collapse where there are too many differences between the regions (but particularly the urban coastal elites and the rural regions of the country) for this country to hold together as a single nation-state once the food riots start (see Sri Lanka and Peru right now for previews of our future… except we have vastly more guns in the hands of soon to be starving citizens).

Some of the better-off states may be able to cobble something resembling a nation-state together and that’s what I hope my state will be in a position to be a part of.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Fheredin on April 16, 2022, 07:30:56 AM
The US is not going to balkanize; NYC is essentially completely dependent on trade with and commuters from the states around it to function, and California is committed to driving itself into a debt default. If you remove those two components, most states have pretty good relationships with each other. The proof is in concealed carry reciprocity because that generally requires some measure of cooperation between state legislatures.

(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/9c61242f/dms3rep/multi/opt/MapChart_Map-f9364a1e-1920w.png)

Florida has an above average reciprocity map, but most CCW permits are valid across most of the continental US. This is indicative of states which have good relationships with each other, even if they are separated by hundreds of miles and have no contact with states bordering their borders.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Chris24601 on April 16, 2022, 08:11:42 PM
Balkanize probably isn’t the right word, but there’s definitely a cleaving going on between the cultures of “fly-over country” and the urban coasts.

Big Tech, centered almost entirely in the coasts is a big part of that cleaving as they censor anything that doesn’t conform to their ideology; forcing those with other values to do business elsewhere.

When the government wants to be able to shut down your ability to feed, clothe and house your family if you disagree with their illogical and frankly suicidal if followed dictates, the people they’re trying to crush will do everything they can to separate from that society.

Gab, Rumble, Brave/Brave Search, GiveSendGo… Hell, even the RPGSite exist because someone decided a whole class of people were not acceptable and should be silenced and would be quite happy if their means of supporting themselves was removed so they’d die if they didn’t submit to their cult.

We’re already living in a Balkanized country to varying degrees… we just don’t acknowledge it. How many companies do you no longer buy from or events do you no longer attend because the SJW’s have infested them? How many shows/movies/suservices do you not watch because they’re infested with Woke? How many places do you have no intention of ever visiting now because of the politics in those places?

We’re already divided or well in the process of getting there.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: fixable on April 17, 2022, 05:07:53 AM
We are living in a balkanized country based on the new satanic panic of ultra right wing ideologies. CRT, immigrants, LGBTQ+ are the new enemies of their so-called purified merica. We'll never have unity as long as ultra conservatives continue to trample on women's rights, LGBTQ+ rights, immigrant rights, poor peoples rights. Basically, the right in the US has declared open war over against anyone who does not conform to their ideal of fundamental christian ideologies.

The ultra-right has literally stated that these people don't have a right to live peacefully and don't have the same protections under the Constitution of the Untied States. They will use their vast media power (all media is right wing media - the liberal media thing is a myth).

Why? Because money. The ultra wealthy the richest people in the world the capitalist overlords (who have more money and power than any of us can possibly imagine) run it all. They own us completely and they will use their power to make you conform to the idea that anyone who wants an individual to have power in this world is the enemy. They tell you that people who want fair distribution of basic needs to live as woke. That if you want to love a person you choose as woke. That you want to survive in this world as woke.

The right wing ideology has a foundation of an ultra rich capitalist elite who want to control every aspect of our lives and squeeze every last penny from us. They will collapse our planet's ecosystem to make more profit, they will watch people suffer to make more profit. The right needs to separate itself from ultra rich capitalists if they want to hold true to the Constitution... but I think we all know that the right doesn't give a f*ck about the Constitution and they will cheat and steal and intimidate and coerce their way into power.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: fixable on April 17, 2022, 05:24:26 AM
Balkanize probably isn’t the right word, but there’s definitely a cleaving going on between the cultures of “fly-over country” and the urban coasts.

Big Tech, centered almost entirely in the coasts is a big part of that cleaving as they censor anything that doesn’t conform to their ideology; forcing those with other values to do business elsewhere.

When the government wants to be able to shut down your ability to feed, clothe and house your family if you disagree with their illogical and frankly suicidal if followed dictates, the people they’re trying to crush will do everything they can to separate from that society.

Gab, Rumble, Brave/Brave Search, GiveSendGo… Hell, even the RPGSite exist because someone decided a whole class of people were not acceptable and should be silenced and would be quite happy if their means of supporting themselves was removed so they’d die if they didn’t submit to their cult.

We’re already living in a Balkanized country to varying degrees… we just don’t acknowledge it. How many companies do you no longer buy from or events do you no longer attend because the SJW’s have infested them? How many shows/movies/suservices do you not watch because they’re infested with Woke? How many places do you have no intention of ever visiting now because of the politics in those places?

We’re already divided or well in the process of getting there.


Lol.. i find it hilarious that you guys don't' realize that YOU are the evil empire. You guys cry cry cry cry cry like babies,  but you guys are winning. You got your asinine b.s. legislation going everywhere, and you got your cultist trump flag waving morons everywhere.

What? how much more do you want to rape our country???Are you already getting everything your sad pathetic desires fulfilled?? How far do you fascists want to go? 1984 level control over our society??? Satanic panic in full effect.

 I'm married to someone not of my same race. Am I on the execution block?? You are gunning for interracial marriage ( and yes I know you mean interracial with blacks) My daughter is interracial. Is my daughter open season to be raped and forced to bear that child? Is that what you all want? Good for you.(I mean go F*CK yourselfs... if that wasn't claear).
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: fixable on April 17, 2022, 05:46:44 AM
But yeah if you want to split the country up then you are literally seditionists and in opposition of the Constitution of the United States.  I guess good luck with that... The United States is pretty good at beating nazi's.

And if you think you have some consensus, you don't. trump lost in a landslide in 2020. You got absolutely embarrassed in 2020. We will continue to rise and get back control of our country. We're going to get MTG out, we're going to get "my husband shows his penis to kids" Boebert out, we're going to kick walker to the curb. There will be a dramatic Blue surge in the mid-terms because the right has not shown anything but causing misfortune for Americans for petty reasons.

Because the American people want solutions to their problems, not a bunch of clowns spending all their time playing culture war.

Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shasarak on April 17, 2022, 05:51:27 AM
USA USA 🇺🇸
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on April 17, 2022, 09:03:47 AM
   Ultraconservative religious right = values of a mid 90's democrat in the USA.   The language here is that of a fool.   Landslide....odd that landslides only seem to happen in the deadest of night in the swingiest of states where rules are changed.  I am happy the most popular president in US history shits his pants and shakes hands with ghosts on stage. 

   Trampling rights...like wanting no men in women's locker rooms or sports?  LMAO.  It is pretty hilarious that what was left of center in 1995 is not "Ultra right wing conservatives" who have a victim complex.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: I on April 17, 2022, 10:44:36 AM
But yeah if you want to split the country up then you are literally seditionists and in opposition of the Constitution of the United States. 

There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution that says a state can't secede.  Nothing in 1861, nothing today.  There's an 1880s Supreme Court case, but such cases can be and have been overturned.  And if a convention of states is formed, pretty much anything goes.  Also, you seem to be unaware that some states were admitted to the U.S. with the agreement of Congress that those states could secede any time they wished.  I believe  (iirc) New York and Virginia only joined once that guarantee was given.  If it was impossible, Congress would not have agreed to the terms.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on April 17, 2022, 11:08:33 AM
We are living in a balkanized country based on the new satanic panic of ultra right wing ideologies. CRT, immigrants, LGBTQ+ are the new enemies of their so-called purified merica. We'll never have unity as long as ultra conservatives continue to trample on women's rights, LGBTQ+ rights, immigrant rights, poor peoples rights. Basically, the right in the US has declared open war over against anyone who does not conform to their ideal of fundamental christian ideologies.

The ultra-right has literally stated that these people don't have a right to live peacefully and don't have the same protections under the Constitution of the Untied States. They will use their vast media power (all media is right wing media - the liberal media thing is a myth).

Why? Because money. The ultra wealthy the richest people in the world the capitalist overlords (who have more money and power than any of us can possibly imagine) run it all. They own us completely and they will use their power to make you conform to the idea that anyone who wants an individual to have power in this world is the enemy. They tell you that people who want fair distribution of basic needs to live as woke. That if you want to love a person you choose as woke. That you want to survive in this world as woke.

The right wing ideology has a foundation of an ultra rich capitalist elite who want to control every aspect of our lives and squeeze every last penny from us. They will collapse our planet's ecosystem to make more profit, they will watch people suffer to make more profit. The right needs to separate itself from ultra rich capitalists if they want to hold true to the Constitution... but I think we all know that the right doesn't give a f*ck about the Constitution and they will cheat and steal and intimidate and coerce their way into power.
Does your definition of "ultra-right" include Mao, or does he just barely make it to the good side?
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on April 17, 2022, 11:24:30 AM
But yeah if you want to split the country up then you are literally seditionists and in opposition of the Constitution of the United States. 

There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution that says a state can't secede.  Nothing in 1861, nothing today.  There's an 1880s Supreme Court case, but such cases can be and have been overturned.  And if a convention of states is formed, pretty much anything goes.  Also, you seem to be unaware that some states were admitted to the U.S. with the agreement of Congress that those states could secede any time they wished.  I believe  (iirc) New York and Virginia only joined once that guarantee was given.  If it was impossible, Congress would not have agreed to the terms.
The Civil War and the idea of the Union casts a long shadow. It's extremely well entrenched in the establishment's mores and the public consciousness. That's a lot of inertia to overcome.

And from a legal standpoint, the Constitution was more a reflection of James Madison's ideal of a powerful central state than Jefferson's ideal of a loose confederation of independent states. While it says nothing about secession, it also does not explicitly allow it, and interpretations since have almost invariably favored Washington over the states.

Though I do agree that it's very clear that the states that agreed to join in the 18th and early 19th century were clearly under the impression it was a voluntary union, and that they could withdraw if they felt like it. During the Jacksonian era, there was that whole back-and-forth about what states needed to do to secede, which was tied to the idea of federal nullification; i.e. that states could decide which federal laws they followed.

The most promising thing about the secessionist or at least decentralist movement of today is that both sides have come down firmly on the side of nullification, from sanctuary cities, marijuana legalization, and gay marriage on the left to constitutional carry on the right. Though admittedly, it's purely a matter of political expediency rather than a principled stand. But it does open a door.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on April 17, 2022, 03:04:33 PM
There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution that says a state can't secede.  Nothing in 1861, nothing today.  There's an 1880s Supreme Court case, but such cases can be and have been overturned.  And if a convention of states is formed, pretty much anything goes.  Also, you seem to be unaware that some states were admitted to the U.S. with the agreement of Congress that those states could secede any time they wished.  I believe  (iirc) New York and Virginia only joined once that guarantee was given.  If it was impossible, Congress would not have agreed to the terms.

The question of state secession was answered, in blood, in 1865.  The answer is "no."
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on April 17, 2022, 05:23:05 PM
There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution that says a state can't secede.  Nothing in 1861, nothing today.  There's an 1880s Supreme Court case, but such cases can be and have been overturned.  And if a convention of states is formed, pretty much anything goes.  Also, you seem to be unaware that some states were admitted to the U.S. with the agreement of Congress that those states could secede any time they wished.  I believe  (iirc) New York and Virginia only joined once that guarantee was given.  If it was impossible, Congress would not have agreed to the terms.

The question of state secession was answered, in blood, in 1865.  The answer is "no."

  Sort of.  The answer like all answers from history, is the victor writes and decides history.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on April 17, 2022, 05:57:52 PM
We are living in a balkanized country based on the new satanic panic of ultra right wing ideologies. CRT, immigrants, LGBTQ+ are the new enemies of their so-called purified merica. We'll never have unity as long as ultra conservatives continue to trample on women's rights, LGBTQ+ rights, immigrant rights, poor peoples rights. Basically, the right in the US has declared open war over against anyone who does not conform to their ideal of fundamental christian ideologies.

The ultra-right has literally stated that these people don't have a right to live peacefully and don't have the same protections under the Constitution of the Untied States. They will use their vast media power (all media is right wing media - the liberal media thing is a myth).

Why? Because money. The ultra wealthy the richest people in the world the capitalist overlords (who have more money and power than any of us can possibly imagine) run it all. They own us completely and they will use their power to make you conform to the idea that anyone who wants an individual to have power in this world is the enemy. They tell you that people who want fair distribution of basic needs to live as woke. That if you want to love a person you choose as woke. That you want to survive in this world as woke.

The right wing ideology has a foundation of an ultra rich capitalist elite who want to control every aspect of our lives and squeeze every last penny from us. They will collapse our planet's ecosystem to make more profit, they will watch people suffer to make more profit. The right needs to separate itself from ultra rich capitalists if they want to hold true to the Constitution... but I think we all know that the right doesn't give a f*ck about the Constitution and they will cheat and steal and intimidate and coerce their way into power.

Lol.. i find it hilarious that you guys don't' realize that YOU are the evil empire. You guys cry cry cry cry cry like babies,  but you guys are winning. You got your asinine b.s. legislation going everywhere, and you got your cultist trump flag waving morons everywhere.

What? how much more do you want to rape our country???Are you already getting everything your sad pathetic desires fulfilled?? How far do you fascists want to go? 1984 level control over our society??? Satanic panic in full effect.

 I'm married to someone not of my same race. Am I on the execution block?? You are gunning for interracial marriage ( and yes I know you mean interracial with blacks) My daughter is interracial. Is my daughter open season to be raped and forced to bear that child? Is that what you all want? Good for you.(I mean go F*CK yourselfs... if that wasn't claear).

Drunk or just hyperbolic, you decide.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DocJones on April 17, 2022, 07:06:26 PM
Drunk or just hyperbolic, you decide.
I think he writes for The Onion.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Chris24601 on April 17, 2022, 07:37:56 PM
We are living in a balkanized country based on the new satanic panic of ultra right wing ideologies. CRT, immigrants, LGBTQ+ are the new enemies of their so-called purified merica. We'll never have unity as long as ultra conservatives continue to trample on women's rights, LGBTQ+ rights, immigrant rights, poor peoples rights. Basically, the right in the US has declared open war over against anyone who does not conform to their ideal of fundamental christian ideologies.

The ultra-right has literally stated that these people don't have a right to live peacefully and don't have the same protections under the Constitution of the Untied States. They will use their vast media power (all media is right wing media - the liberal media thing is a myth).

Why? Because money. The ultra wealthy the richest people in the world the capitalist overlords (who have more money and power than any of us can possibly imagine) run it all. They own us completely and they will use their power to make you conform to the idea that anyone who wants an individual to have power in this world is the enemy. They tell you that people who want fair distribution of basic needs to live as woke. That if you want to love a person you choose as woke. That you want to survive in this world as woke.

The right wing ideology has a foundation of an ultra rich capitalist elite who want to control every aspect of our lives and squeeze every last penny from us. They will collapse our planet's ecosystem to make more profit, they will watch people suffer to make more profit. The right needs to separate itself from ultra rich capitalists if they want to hold true to the Constitution... but I think we all know that the right doesn't give a f*ck about the Constitution and they will cheat and steal and intimidate and coerce their way into power.

Lol.. i find it hilarious that you guys don't' realize that YOU are the evil empire. You guys cry cry cry cry cry like babies,  but you guys are winning. You got your asinine b.s. legislation going everywhere, and you got your cultist trump flag waving morons everywhere.

What? how much more do you want to rape our country???Are you already getting everything your sad pathetic desires fulfilled?? How far do you fascists want to go? 1984 level control over our society??? Satanic panic in full effect.

 I'm married to someone not of my same race. Am I on the execution block?? You are gunning for interracial marriage ( and yes I know you mean interracial with blacks) My daughter is interracial. Is my daughter open season to be raped and forced to bear that child? Is that what you all want? Good for you.(I mean go F*CK yourselfs... if that wasn't claear).

Drunk or just hyperbolic, you decide.
I vote sock puppet of the banned moron who posted that Biden was a RIGHT WING stooge. The idea that the Alphabet People are being oppressed right now is a joke and the dude seriously believes the crony capitalists are still backing Republicans.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on April 17, 2022, 08:56:05 PM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: I on April 17, 2022, 09:40:39 PM
The question of state secession was answered, in blood, in 1865.  The answer is "no."

It was decided at the time by force.  Not legally and not for all time.  Did the seceding thirteen British colonies establish legally for all time that colonies could secede from their government?   Nope, they fought and won, just like the South fought and lost.  Winners get to make the rules.  In this case, the victorious Northern states still didn't pass an amendment specifically forbidding a breakup of the country, even though they easily could have with no opposition whatsoever.  Why?  Probably because they knew that the day might come when it would be some of them who wanted to secede.

You're also ignoring the convention of states I mentioned.  Not enough states have signed on to it yet, but that number keeps increasing.  It doesn't mean that any state could or would secede under it, but it would be perfectly legal and constitutional if the convention said so.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: fixable on April 22, 2022, 02:34:06 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on April 22, 2022, 05:21:30 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 22, 2022, 07:56:37 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on April 22, 2022, 10:18:36 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on April 22, 2022, 12:05:51 PM
We do NOT want a balkanized USA.

Just returned from Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK.

Catholic neighborhoods have walls around them, with gates that close anywhere from 6:30pm to 9:30pm.

Every school has to be duplicated: one Catholic school, and one Protestant school.

Once a year they build huge bonfires near Catholic neighborhoods (sometimes as high as 12 stories tall) to remind everyone of William of Orange's conquest of Ireland, where they burn Irish flags and have F the Pope signs. They also do marches. During both events, teens routinely throw rocks, eggs, and other objects at Catholic houses (over the fences) such that the Catholic houses had to erect fencing at their roof-line to stop such projectiles from hitting their homes. The Catholics also do bonfires, where they burn British flags. Because the UK supports Israel, the Catholics support Palestine, so you see Israel or Palestinian flags all over depending on the neighborhood, despite it very much seeming like nobody actually knows much of anything about Israel or Palestine or that conflict.

Every older person knows someone who was either 1) killed during the Troubles by the other side, or 2) imprisoned for killing someone from the other side, or 3) both.

To create peace, BOTH major political parties must by law share leadership power. So if the Ulster party (the Loyalist/British/Protestant party) wins, then Sinn Fein (the Republic/Irish/Catholic) party leader is also placed in equal power in leadership, and vice versa.

There are billboards showing men armed with machine guns dressed in all black around town, with statements about "protecting their cultural identity." As money dried up overseas to support these militias, they turned to drugs sales and other similar crimes to fund their militia efforts to "remain ready" to defend their culture. This appears to be true for both the IRA and the UVF.

Here is an example of one I saw (this one happens to be a UVF one, which is the Loyalist/British/Protestant sides militia):

(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/65b04/38682873.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240/T_K8288-_Read-Only_.jpg)

This is what a balkanized nation looks like. We don't want that. There has got to be a better way to focus on common ground than turning to that sort of solution.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: The Spaniard on April 22, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on April 22, 2022, 08:13:10 PM
We do NOT want a balkanized USA.

Just returned from Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK.

Catholic neighborhoods have walls around them, with gates that close anywhere from 6:30pm to 9:30pm.

Every school has to be duplicated: one Catholic school, and one Protestant school.

Once a year they build huge bonfires near Catholic neighborhoods (sometimes as high as 12 stories tall) to remind everyone of William of Orange's conquest of Ireland, where they burn Irish flags and have F the Pope signs. They also do marches. During both events, teens routinely throw rocks, eggs, and other objects at Catholic houses (over the fences) such that the Catholic houses had to erect fencing at their roof-line to stop such projectiles from hitting their homes. The Catholics also do bonfires, where they burn British flags. Because the UK supports Israel, the Catholics support Palestine, so you see Israel or Palestinian flags all over depending on the neighborhood, despite it very much seeming like nobody actually knows much of anything about Israel or Palestine or that conflict.

Every older person knows someone who was either 1) killed during the Troubles by the other side, or 2) imprisoned for killing someone from the other side, or 3) both.

To create peace, BOTH major political parties must by law share leadership power. So if the Ulster party (the Loyalist/British/Protestant party) wins, then Sinn Fein (the Republic/Irish/Catholic) party leader is also placed in equal power in leadership, and vice versa.

There are billboards showing men armed with machine guns dressed in all black around town, with statements about "protecting their cultural identity." As money dried up overseas to support these militias, they turned to drugs sales and other similar crimes to fund their militia efforts to "remain ready" to defend their culture. This appears to be true for both the IRA and the UVF.

Here is an example of one I saw (this one happens to be a UVF one, which is the Loyalist/British/Protestant sides militia):

(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/65b04/38682873.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240/T_K8288-_Read-Only_.jpg)

This is what a balkanized nation looks like. We don't want that. There has got to be a better way to focus on common ground than turning to that sort of solution.

I call bullshit.

This image came from a news story from Mar 16-17, 2021 where a Leo Varadkar was threatened via graffiti. The same story was reported in several newspapers. It isn't recent at all and it sure as fuck didn't "just happen" while you were being a tourist over the weekend.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-investigate-latest-graffiti-threat-to-leo-varadkar-in-belfast-40205886.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0316/1204469-varadkar-graffiti/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/varadkar-s-address-daubed-on-belfast-wall-in-latest-graffiti-threat-1.4512783

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/leo-varadkar-graffiti-belfast-address-20195163

https://www.independent.ie/videos/sinister-leo-varadkar-graffiti-written-on-wall-in-east-belfast-40206801.html

Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on April 22, 2022, 08:17:21 PM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on April 22, 2022, 08:35:04 PM
We do NOT want a balkanized USA.

Just returned from Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK.

Catholic neighborhoods have walls around them, with gates that close anywhere from 6:30pm to 9:30pm.

Every school has to be duplicated: one Catholic school, and one Protestant school.

Once a year they build huge bonfires near Catholic neighborhoods (sometimes as high as 12 stories tall) to remind everyone of William of Orange's conquest of Ireland, where they burn Irish flags and have F the Pope signs. They also do marches. During both events, teens routinely throw rocks, eggs, and other objects at Catholic houses (over the fences) such that the Catholic houses had to erect fencing at their roof-line to stop such projectiles from hitting their homes. The Catholics also do bonfires, where they burn British flags. Because the UK supports Israel, the Catholics support Palestine, so you see Israel or Palestinian flags all over depending on the neighborhood, despite it very much seeming like nobody actually knows much of anything about Israel or Palestine or that conflict.

Every older person knows someone who was either 1) killed during the Troubles by the other side, or 2) imprisoned for killing someone from the other side, or 3) both.

To create peace, BOTH major political parties must by law share leadership power. So if the Ulster party (the Loyalist/British/Protestant party) wins, then Sinn Fein (the Republic/Irish/Catholic) party leader is also placed in equal power in leadership, and vice versa.

There are billboards showing men armed with machine guns dressed in all black around town, with statements about "protecting their cultural identity." As money dried up overseas to support these militias, they turned to drugs sales and other similar crimes to fund their militia efforts to "remain ready" to defend their culture. This appears to be true for both the IRA and the UVF.

Here is an example of one I saw (this one happens to be a UVF one, which is the Loyalist/British/Protestant sides militia):

(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/65b04/38682873.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240/T_K8288-_Read-Only_.jpg)

This is what a balkanized nation looks like. We don't want that. There has got to be a better way to focus on common ground than turning to that sort of solution.

I call bullshit.

This image came from a news story from Mar 16-17, 2021 where a Leo Varadkar was threatened via graffiti. The same story was reported in several newspapers. It isn't recent at all and it sure as fuck didn't "just happen" while you were being a tourist over the weekend.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-investigate-latest-graffiti-threat-to-leo-varadkar-in-belfast-40205886.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0316/1204469-varadkar-graffiti/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/varadkar-s-address-daubed-on-belfast-wall-in-latest-graffiti-threat-1.4512783

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/leo-varadkar-graffiti-belfast-address-20195163

https://www.independent.ie/videos/sinister-leo-varadkar-graffiti-written-on-wall-in-east-belfast-40206801.html

Oh for fuck's sake I didn't say it "just happened" I said I just saw it there. And I did, as we drove by in a cab. It's still there. So are a half dozen others on the peace wall. They didn't take it down at all.  And it's not the graffiti next to it in those articles I saw (I don't recall seeing that) it's the billboard I posted that I saw.

I'm curious Jeff. You've proven the billboard was put up. Which was my point. What point do you think you're making by falsely calling me a liar about having just gotten back from there and having seen the billboard (and others)? I am pretty sure there are people here who know me on Facebook and saw me post the pictures this past 2 weeks from there (I have some good photos of some Game of Thrones locations if you'd like to see them, and even one of Titanic Studios which just completed shooting the D&D movie). Where the fuck are you going with this?

Tell you what Jeff why don't you go ahead and Google Ulster Volunteer Force and see what you find on your own. You will see they are real, they do put up stuff like that, it's not taken down, it's very real and there right now. This is in fact a reality in Belfast right now. It's what a Balkanized nation looks like.

Here this guy has been gathering some pictures of billboards around Belfast (https://extramuralactivity.com/category/organisations/uvfrhcycv/). Fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on April 22, 2022, 09:06:30 PM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.

You mean like having a southern part of the country and a northern part of the country where people from each side can go to one or the other? That kind of "space"?
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shasarak on April 22, 2022, 10:13:36 PM
There has hardly been any troubles since we got two different Irelands.

Seems like Balkanisation works well.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on April 22, 2022, 10:39:53 PM
We do NOT want a balkanized USA.

Just returned from Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK.

Catholic neighborhoods have walls around them, with gates that close anywhere from 6:30pm to 9:30pm.

Every school has to be duplicated: one Catholic school, and one Protestant school.

Once a year they build huge bonfires near Catholic neighborhoods (sometimes as high as 12 stories tall) to remind everyone of William of Orange's conquest of Ireland, where they burn Irish flags and have F the Pope signs. They also do marches. During both events, teens routinely throw rocks, eggs, and other objects at Catholic houses (over the fences) such that the Catholic houses had to erect fencing at their roof-line to stop such projectiles from hitting their homes. The Catholics also do bonfires, where they burn British flags. Because the UK supports Israel, the Catholics support Palestine, so you see Israel or Palestinian flags all over depending on the neighborhood, despite it very much seeming like nobody actually knows much of anything about Israel or Palestine or that conflict.

Every older person knows someone who was either 1) killed during the Troubles by the other side, or 2) imprisoned for killing someone from the other side, or 3) both.

To create peace, BOTH major political parties must by law share leadership power. So if the Ulster party (the Loyalist/British/Protestant party) wins, then Sinn Fein (the Republic/Irish/Catholic) party leader is also placed in equal power in leadership, and vice versa.

There are billboards showing men armed with machine guns dressed in all black around town, with statements about "protecting their cultural identity." As money dried up overseas to support these militias, they turned to drugs sales and other similar crimes to fund their militia efforts to "remain ready" to defend their culture. This appears to be true for both the IRA and the UVF.

Here is an example of one I saw (this one happens to be a UVF one, which is the Loyalist/British/Protestant sides militia):

(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/65b04/38682873.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240/T_K8288-_Read-Only_.jpg)

This is what a balkanized nation looks like. We don't want that. There has got to be a better way to focus on common ground than turning to that sort of solution.

I call bullshit.

This image came from a news story from Mar 16-17, 2021 where a Leo Varadkar was threatened via graffiti. The same story was reported in several newspapers. It isn't recent at all and it sure as fuck didn't "just happen" while you were being a tourist over the weekend.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-investigate-latest-graffiti-threat-to-leo-varadkar-in-belfast-40205886.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0316/1204469-varadkar-graffiti/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/varadkar-s-address-daubed-on-belfast-wall-in-latest-graffiti-threat-1.4512783

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/leo-varadkar-graffiti-belfast-address-20195163

https://www.independent.ie/videos/sinister-leo-varadkar-graffiti-written-on-wall-in-east-belfast-40206801.html

Oh for fuck's sake I didn't say it "just happened" I said I just saw it there. And I did, as we drove by in a cab. It's still there. So are a half dozen others on the peace wall. They didn't take it down at all.  And it's not the graffiti next to it in those articles I saw (I don't recall seeing that) it's the billboard I posted that I saw.

I'm curious Jeff. You've proven the billboard was put up. Which was my point. What point do you think you're making by falsely calling me a liar about having just gotten back from there and having seen the billboard (and others)? I am pretty sure there are people here who know me on Facebook and saw me post the pictures this past 2 weeks from there (I have some good photos of some Game of Thrones locations if you'd like to see them, and even one of Titanic Studios which just completed shooting the D&D movie). Where the fuck are you going with this?

Tell you what Jeff why don't you go ahead and Google Ulster Volunteer Force and see what you find on your own. You will see they are real, they do put up stuff like that, it's not taken down, it's very real and there right now. This is in fact a reality in Belfast right now. It's what a Balkanized nation looks like.

Here this guy has been gathering some pictures of billboards around Belfast (https://extramuralactivity.com/category/organisations/uvfrhcycv/). Fascinating stuff.

Thank you for confirming that you are nothing but a tourist who is so wrapped up in his own pretentiousness that he thinks a vacation in Ireland qualifies him to judge what is best for either the USA or any other country. I don't give a fuck about your pictures of the Game of Thrones sets or the D&D movie because none of that demonstrates any fucking insight into Ireland the country, Ireland the culture, or Ireland the people who live there. You are a TOURIST. A pseudointellectual wonk who thinks that because something has been on an HBO fantasy series that it has enough lasting historical significance to fly internationally to visit the damn things - and that tourist visit qualifies you to speak on events in Ireland.

Frankly, you piss me off because every time you post something like this you remind me of a caricature of an American as viewed through the eyes of someone from a foreign country. Loud and clueless, only there for a short time.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on April 22, 2022, 10:45:26 PM
There has hardly been any troubles since we got two different Irelands.

Seems like Balkanisation works well.

And I am saying it didn't. It's worse there than here right now.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on April 22, 2022, 10:51:38 PM
We do NOT want a balkanized USA.

Just returned from Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK.

Catholic neighborhoods have walls around them, with gates that close anywhere from 6:30pm to 9:30pm.

Every school has to be duplicated: one Catholic school, and one Protestant school.

Once a year they build huge bonfires near Catholic neighborhoods (sometimes as high as 12 stories tall) to remind everyone of William of Orange's conquest of Ireland, where they burn Irish flags and have F the Pope signs. They also do marches. During both events, teens routinely throw rocks, eggs, and other objects at Catholic houses (over the fences) such that the Catholic houses had to erect fencing at their roof-line to stop such projectiles from hitting their homes. The Catholics also do bonfires, where they burn British flags. Because the UK supports Israel, the Catholics support Palestine, so you see Israel or Palestinian flags all over depending on the neighborhood, despite it very much seeming like nobody actually knows much of anything about Israel or Palestine or that conflict.

Every older person knows someone who was either 1) killed during the Troubles by the other side, or 2) imprisoned for killing someone from the other side, or 3) both.

To create peace, BOTH major political parties must by law share leadership power. So if the Ulster party (the Loyalist/British/Protestant party) wins, then Sinn Fein (the Republic/Irish/Catholic) party leader is also placed in equal power in leadership, and vice versa.

There are billboards showing men armed with machine guns dressed in all black around town, with statements about "protecting their cultural identity." As money dried up overseas to support these militias, they turned to drugs sales and other similar crimes to fund their militia efforts to "remain ready" to defend their culture. This appears to be true for both the IRA and the UVF.

Here is an example of one I saw (this one happens to be a UVF one, which is the Loyalist/British/Protestant sides militia):

(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/65b04/38682873.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240/T_K8288-_Read-Only_.jpg)

This is what a balkanized nation looks like. We don't want that. There has got to be a better way to focus on common ground than turning to that sort of solution.

I call bullshit.

This image came from a news story from Mar 16-17, 2021 where a Leo Varadkar was threatened via graffiti. The same story was reported in several newspapers. It isn't recent at all and it sure as fuck didn't "just happen" while you were being a tourist over the weekend.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-investigate-latest-graffiti-threat-to-leo-varadkar-in-belfast-40205886.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0316/1204469-varadkar-graffiti/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/varadkar-s-address-daubed-on-belfast-wall-in-latest-graffiti-threat-1.4512783

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/leo-varadkar-graffiti-belfast-address-20195163

https://www.independent.ie/videos/sinister-leo-varadkar-graffiti-written-on-wall-in-east-belfast-40206801.html

Oh for fuck's sake I didn't say it "just happened" I said I just saw it there. And I did, as we drove by in a cab. It's still there. So are a half dozen others on the peace wall. They didn't take it down at all.  And it's not the graffiti next to it in those articles I saw (I don't recall seeing that) it's the billboard I posted that I saw.

I'm curious Jeff. You've proven the billboard was put up. Which was my point. What point do you think you're making by falsely calling me a liar about having just gotten back from there and having seen the billboard (and others)? I am pretty sure there are people here who know me on Facebook and saw me post the pictures this past 2 weeks from there (I have some good photos of some Game of Thrones locations if you'd like to see them, and even one of Titanic Studios which just completed shooting the D&D movie). Where the fuck are you going with this?

Tell you what Jeff why don't you go ahead and Google Ulster Volunteer Force and see what you find on your own. You will see they are real, they do put up stuff like that, it's not taken down, it's very real and there right now. This is in fact a reality in Belfast right now. It's what a Balkanized nation looks like.

Here this guy has been gathering some pictures of billboards around Belfast (https://extramuralactivity.com/category/organisations/uvfrhcycv/). Fascinating stuff.

Thank you for confirming that you are nothing but a tourist who is so wrapped up in his own pretentiousness that he thinks a vacation in Ireland qualifies him to judge what is best for either the USA or any other country.

Jesus fuck Jeff I never claimed to have been there for geo political reasons. I just claimed I had been there last week.

What is wrong with you? Why did you call me a liar, over this?

Quote
I don't give a fuck about your pictures of the Game of Thrones sets or the D&D movie because none of that demonstrates any fucking insight into Ireland the country, Ireland the culture, or Ireland the people who live there. You are a TOURIST. A pseudointellectual wonk who thinks that because something has been on an HBO fantasy series that it has enough lasting historical significance to fly internationally to visit the damn things - and that tourist visit qualifies you to speak on events in Ireland.

Are you just fucking dumb? I was simply describing some photos I have because you accused me of being a liar about having been there last week. I didn't go there FOR Game of Thrones locations (I didn't even recall it was filmed there, until I got there, but I did think that was cool). In fact I was not even there to be a tourist but the reasons I was there are none of your fucking business. But I will say I was with people who live there, who are from there and whose family is from there, and whose ancestors have lived there at least since the 1700s. They were there for the peak of The Troubles and are still there now. They were able to provide deep insight into what's happening in Northern Ireland today.

Again, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? Why did you call me a liar about being there last week, and why are you now pretending that didn't just happen as if you can just get away with calling me a liar and then, when called out on it, act like none of that happened?

Quote
Frankly, you piss me off because every time you post something like this you remind me of a caricature of an American as viewed through the eyes of someone from a foreign country. Loud and clueless, only there for a short time.

Do you have anything to say about any of the points I made, or are you simply gong to bloviate about bullshit which has nothing to do with the topic, and pretend you didn't call me a liar when I was telling the truth?

Northern Ireland is Balkanized. The Catholic neighborhoods are walled in with gates in Belfast. They do have two schools for most locations: one catholic and one protestant, and it's a huge waste of money to do that. They do burn shit every year in massive bonfires, and throw stuff at each other every year, and threaten violence every year. It's hard to get a job sometimes if you're the wrong religion, and the do ask.

Sometimes it breaks into real violence. The situation with the split isn't all happy happy joy joy. We do not want that situation here.

It's not better than what we have right now. It would be better to find a way to work together again rather than go for that Balkanized solution.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: yancy on April 22, 2022, 11:08:37 PM
Okay grandpa, we've all heard about your guided tour and vacation in Northern Ireland a million times now, get back in the day room and go talk to your friends, it's almost time for dinner & meds.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on April 22, 2022, 11:17:10 PM
We do NOT want a balkanized USA.

Just returned from Belfast, Northern Ireland, UK.

Catholic neighborhoods have walls around them, with gates that close anywhere from 6:30pm to 9:30pm.

Every school has to be duplicated: one Catholic school, and one Protestant school.

Once a year they build huge bonfires near Catholic neighborhoods (sometimes as high as 12 stories tall) to remind everyone of William of Orange's conquest of Ireland, where they burn Irish flags and have F the Pope signs. They also do marches. During both events, teens routinely throw rocks, eggs, and other objects at Catholic houses (over the fences) such that the Catholic houses had to erect fencing at their roof-line to stop such projectiles from hitting their homes. The Catholics also do bonfires, where they burn British flags. Because the UK supports Israel, the Catholics support Palestine, so you see Israel or Palestinian flags all over depending on the neighborhood, despite it very much seeming like nobody actually knows much of anything about Israel or Palestine or that conflict.

Every older person knows someone who was either 1) killed during the Troubles by the other side, or 2) imprisoned for killing someone from the other side, or 3) both.

To create peace, BOTH major political parties must by law share leadership power. So if the Ulster party (the Loyalist/British/Protestant party) wins, then Sinn Fein (the Republic/Irish/Catholic) party leader is also placed in equal power in leadership, and vice versa.

There are billboards showing men armed with machine guns dressed in all black around town, with statements about "protecting their cultural identity." As money dried up overseas to support these militias, they turned to drugs sales and other similar crimes to fund their militia efforts to "remain ready" to defend their culture. This appears to be true for both the IRA and the UVF.

Here is an example of one I saw (this one happens to be a UVF one, which is the Loyalist/British/Protestant sides militia):

(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/65b04/38682873.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240/T_K8288-_Read-Only_.jpg)

This is what a balkanized nation looks like. We don't want that. There has got to be a better way to focus on common ground than turning to that sort of solution.

I call bullshit.

This image came from a news story from Mar 16-17, 2021 where a Leo Varadkar was threatened via graffiti. The same story was reported in several newspapers. It isn't recent at all and it sure as fuck didn't "just happen" while you were being a tourist over the weekend.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-investigate-latest-graffiti-threat-to-leo-varadkar-in-belfast-40205886.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0316/1204469-varadkar-graffiti/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/varadkar-s-address-daubed-on-belfast-wall-in-latest-graffiti-threat-1.4512783

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/leo-varadkar-graffiti-belfast-address-20195163

https://www.independent.ie/videos/sinister-leo-varadkar-graffiti-written-on-wall-in-east-belfast-40206801.html

Oh for fuck's sake I didn't say it "just happened" I said I just saw it there. And I did, as we drove by in a cab. It's still there. So are a half dozen others on the peace wall. They didn't take it down at all.  And it's not the graffiti next to it in those articles I saw (I don't recall seeing that) it's the billboard I posted that I saw.

I'm curious Jeff. You've proven the billboard was put up. Which was my point. What point do you think you're making by falsely calling me a liar about having just gotten back from there and having seen the billboard (and others)? I am pretty sure there are people here who know me on Facebook and saw me post the pictures this past 2 weeks from there (I have some good photos of some Game of Thrones locations if you'd like to see them, and even one of Titanic Studios which just completed shooting the D&D movie). Where the fuck are you going with this?

Tell you what Jeff why don't you go ahead and Google Ulster Volunteer Force and see what you find on your own. You will see they are real, they do put up stuff like that, it's not taken down, it's very real and there right now. This is in fact a reality in Belfast right now. It's what a Balkanized nation looks like.

Here this guy has been gathering some pictures of billboards around Belfast (https://extramuralactivity.com/category/organisations/uvfrhcycv/). Fascinating stuff.

Thank you for confirming that you are nothing but a tourist who is so wrapped up in his own pretentiousness that he thinks a vacation in Ireland qualifies him to judge what is best for either the USA or any other country.

Jesus fuck Jeff I never claimed to have been there for geo political reasons. I just claimed I had been there last week.

What is wrong with you? Why did you call me a liar, over this?

Quote
I don't give a fuck about your pictures of the Game of Thrones sets or the D&D movie because none of that demonstrates any fucking insight into Ireland the country, Ireland the culture, or Ireland the people who live there. You are a TOURIST. A pseudointellectual wonk who thinks that because something has been on an HBO fantasy series that it has enough lasting historical significance to fly internationally to visit the damn things - and that tourist visit qualifies you to speak on events in Ireland.

Are you just fucking dumb? I was simply describing some photos I have because you accused me of being a liar about having been there last week. I didn't go there FOR Game of Thrones locations (I didn't even recall it was filmed there, until I got there, but I did think that was cool). In fact I was not even there to be a tourist but the reasons I was there are none of your fucking business. But I will say I was with people who live there, who are from there and whose family is from there, and whose ancestors have lived there at least since the 1700s. They were there for the peak of The Troubles and are still there now. They were able to provide deep insight into what's happening in Northern Ireland today.

Again, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? Why did you call me a liar about being there last week, and why are you now pretending that didn't just happen as if you can just get away with calling me a liar and then, when called out on it, act like none of that happened?

Quote
Frankly, you piss me off because every time you post something like this you remind me of a caricature of an American as viewed through the eyes of someone from a foreign country. Loud and clueless, only there for a short time.

Do you have anything to say about any of the points I made, or are you simply gong to bloviate about bullshit which has nothing to do with the topic, and pretend you didn't call me a liar when I was telling the truth?

Northern Ireland is Balkanized. The Catholic neighborhoods are walled in with gates in Belfast. They do have two schools for most locations: one catholic and one protestant, and it's a huge waste of money to do that. They do burn shit every year in massive bonfires, and throw stuff at each other every year, and threaten violence every year. It's hard to get a job sometimes if you're the wrong religion, and the do ask. Sometimes it breaks into real violence. The situation with the split isn't all happy happy joy joy. We do not want that situation here.

It's not better than what we have right now. It would be better to find a way to work together again rather than go for that Balkanized solution.

Dude, you are a liar. That pic you chose to illustrate how awful it is in Ireland is from a year ago at least. Looking at it, the banner looks like an ad banner you could have made at any number of print shops and they don't last a year when exposed to the elements outside. You just threw that pic up thinking that if it looks scary enough, it will make your point for you.

You mentioned that people in Ireland are denied employment if they are not the correct religion, kinda like how people are denied employment in the USA if they are not leftist enough for the job. Wrong religions get harassed in Ireland while wrong political thought gets harassed in America. You talk about marches and violence and vandalism which happens once a year instigated by each side. Were you just fucking asleep during the Black Lives Matter and Antifa riots not too long ago? There was burning, looting, and murder in those! You just think that the same behaviors are more horrible in a foreign country where you are being a tourist than when it happens here in your own nation because your image of Ireland being something out of Darby O'Gill and the Little People where you could vacation was shattered by reality. Hypocrite!

You are being a duplicitous little shitweasel and I'm saying that you are beyond being merely intellectually dishonest.

And note, up until now I haven't called you a liar. I've said that I call bullshit. You claimed I called you a liar first in order to try and curry some sympathy from the readers.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on April 22, 2022, 11:58:33 PM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.

You mean like having a southern part of the country and a northern part of the country where people from each side can go to one or the other? That kind of "space"?
No, that's not even vaguely what I'm talking about. I'm talking about decentralization, not splitting into two. Why not read what I said, instead of trying to impose your latest argument on unrelated posts?
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: fixable on April 23, 2022, 03:32:45 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.



 
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on April 23, 2022, 08:34:57 AM
  It is enshrined in law in the USA, that is markedly easier to get into college or get a job based on qualifications if you are not white.  Is that the sort of common ground that is going to make everything OK in the USA? 
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on April 23, 2022, 08:36:37 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.

  Where do you go when one side calls their opposition nazis and fascists?  Well you get that side calling their opposition pedophiles and groomers.  Guess what you get a few years after that?  Talk time is done and then it get fugly.

   So name calling the worst thing you can think of means you either want the other person to just shut up and go away...or you get them to react in the same way...which leads to a fight.  Lefties picked a fight, and now it looks to me like they are really reconsidering that path and trying to suddenly use reason.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on April 23, 2022, 08:57:32 AM
Dude, you are a liar. That pic you chose to illustrate how awful it is in Ireland is from a year ago at least. Looking at it, the banner looks like an ad banner you could have made at any number of print shops and they don't last a year when exposed to the elements outside. You just threw that pic up thinking that if it looks scary enough, it will make your point for you.

Oh my fucking God Jeff, that banner is there right now. I didn't personally take a picture of it because I was in a cab, so I found a shot someone else took of it on the web (and I never said or implied otherwise). It is in fact there right now. It looks exactly like that right now.

Why on earth would I make this up? I WAS just there. I did see it, and others. I gave you a link to a guy who takes pictures of these things throughout Belfast and he posted a rather similar one THREE DAYS AGO. Are you claiming this stuff isn't in Northern Ireland? If not, what the fuck is your point? I don't think you have one beyond just attacking me rather than my argument.

Quote
You mentioned that people in Ireland are denied employment if they are not the correct religion, kinda like how people are denied employment in the USA if they are not leftist enough for the job.

I am saying it's worse. When it happens in the US it's rare and makes the news. When it happens in Belfast it's just another day and an ordinary job.

Quote
Wrong religions get harassed in Ireland while wrong political thought gets harassed in America. You talk about marches and violence and vandalism which happens once a year instigated by each side. Were you just fucking asleep during the Black Lives Matter and Antifa riots not too long ago? There was burning, looting, and murder in those!

Yes Jeff, that is my point. If you Balkanize, that stuff doesn't go away it becomes standardized and worse. This is the 'good' times in Belfast now. They went through hundreds and hundreds of murders before this for decades! We don't want that situation.

Quote
You just think that the same behaviors are more horrible in a foreign country where you are being a tourist than when it happens here in your own nation because your image of Ireland being something out of Darby O'Gill and the Little People where you could vacation was shattered by reality. Hypocrite!

Wow Jeff you totally missed my point. No, I think this is what your "solution" looks like. It's worse than what we have right now.  To get to this point they went essentially a civil war and it never ended with splitting people up.  And again, I was not there as a tourist or on vacation, but you keep slinging those lies m'kay?

Quote
You are being a duplicitous little shitweasel and I'm saying that you are beyond being merely intellectually dishonest.

And note, up until now I haven't called you a liar. I've said that I call bullshit. You claimed I called you a liar first in order to try and curry some sympathy from the readers.

And I am saying nothing I said was in any way bullshit or a lie, you just don't have a good response to it so you replaced a cogent response with foaming spittle mad dog anger.

Tell you what Jeff, if I had someone go take a picture of that billboard this week and I posted it, THEN would you believe me? Though I continue to fail to see your point - you agree that billboard was put up (and that I was just there) and I have no idea why you think it being there this week is meaningfully different from it being there last year for this debate, but then you have no points in this conversation so far beyond personal attacks and "nuh uh!" to deflect from the conversation so I guess that's par for the course.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: The Spaniard on April 23, 2022, 08:58:40 AM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.
Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on April 23, 2022, 09:03:18 AM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.
Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.

Right, it doesn't happen peacefully. AT BEST it happens like it did in Ireland. And then AT BEST you get a situation like they have right now as a long term end result after a lot of violence, and that situation is worse than the situation we have right now. That's my point. It doesn't work like you guys think. The end result isn't in any way "clean". People don't just all leave to group with like minded people in the same location. A lot stay behind, and they get funded by those who have a grudge from the violent times, and those grudges don't go away. People define their lives by those grudges for generations, and the grudge becomes the goal with whatever ethics originally driving that cause long discarded in pursuit of revenge. Troubles continue in all regions because of that. This doesn't solve the problems it just outlines them more and makes them worse.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: The Spaniard on April 23, 2022, 11:00:57 AM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.
Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.

Right, it doesn't happen peacefully. AT BEST it happens like it did in Ireland. And then AT BEST you get a situation like they have right now as a long term end result after a lot of violence, and that situation is worse than the situation we have right now. That's my point. It doesn't work like you guys think. The end result isn't in any way "clean". People don't just all leave to group with like minded people in the same location. A lot stay behind, and they get funded by those who have a grudge from the violent times, and those grudges don't go away. People define their lives by those grudges for generations, and the grudge becomes the goal with whatever ethics originally driving that cause long discarded in pursuit of revenge. Troubles continue in all regions because of that. This doesn't solve the problems it just outlines them more and makes them worse.

Who is "you guys"?  Although many would like to separate peacefully, I am under no illusion it will actually happen that way.  I agree it will likely end as you suggest.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on April 23, 2022, 11:22:27 AM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.
Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.

Right, it doesn't happen peacefully. AT BEST it happens like it did in Ireland. And then AT BEST you get a situation like they have right now as a long term end result after a lot of violence, and that situation is worse than the situation we have right now. That's my point. It doesn't work like you guys think. The end result isn't in any way "clean". People don't just all leave to group with like minded people in the same location. A lot stay behind, and they get funded by those who have a grudge from the violent times, and those grudges don't go away. People define their lives by those grudges for generations, and the grudge becomes the goal with whatever ethics originally driving that cause long discarded in pursuit of revenge. Troubles continue in all regions because of that. This doesn't solve the problems it just outlines them more and makes them worse.

Who is "you guys"?  Although many would like to separate peacefully, I am under no illusion it will actually happen that way.  I agree it will likely end as you suggest.

Sorry, you're right. Should not have said you guys. I mean the people who think this will just work out fine and dandy and end up better than what we have right now (which I agree isn't good).
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 23, 2022, 12:08:10 PM
Suddenly the tactic of calling everyone you disagree with a Nazi seems a lot less constructive, eh?

Have fun dangling from the lampposts, groomers!
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on April 23, 2022, 12:44:08 PM
Dude, you are a liar. That pic you chose to illustrate how awful it is in Ireland is from a year ago at least. Looking at it, the banner looks like an ad banner you could have made at any number of print shops and they don't last a year when exposed to the elements outside. You just threw that pic up thinking that if it looks scary enough, it will make your point for you.

Oh my fucking God Jeff, that banner is there right now. I didn't personally take a picture of it because I was in a cab, so I found a shot someone else took of it on the web (and I never said or implied otherwise). It is in fact there right now. It looks exactly like that right now.

Why on earth would I make this up? I WAS just there. I did see it, and others. I gave you a link to a guy who takes pictures of these things throughout Belfast and he posted a rather similar one THREE DAYS AGO. Are you claiming this stuff isn't in Northern Ireland? If not, what the fuck is your point? I don't think you have one beyond just attacking me rather than my argument.

Quote
You mentioned that people in Ireland are denied employment if they are not the correct religion, kinda like how people are denied employment in the USA if they are not leftist enough for the job.

I am saying it's worse. When it happens in the US it's rare and makes the news. When it happens in Belfast it's just another day and an ordinary job.

Quote
Wrong religions get harassed in Ireland while wrong political thought gets harassed in America. You talk about marches and violence and vandalism which happens once a year instigated by each side. Were you just fucking asleep during the Black Lives Matter and Antifa riots not too long ago? There was burning, looting, and murder in those!

Yes Jeff, that is my point. If you Balkanize, that stuff doesn't go away it becomes standardized and worse. This is the 'good' times in Belfast now. They went through hundreds and hundreds of murders before this for decades! We don't want that situation.

Quote
You just think that the same behaviors are more horrible in a foreign country where you are being a tourist than when it happens here in your own nation because your image of Ireland being something out of Darby O'Gill and the Little People where you could vacation was shattered by reality. Hypocrite!

Wow Jeff you totally missed my point. No, I think this is what your "solution" looks like. It's worse than what we have right now.  To get to this point they went essentially a civil war and it never ended with splitting people up.  And again, I was not there as a tourist or on vacation, but you keep slinging those lies m'kay?

Quote
You are being a duplicitous little shitweasel and I'm saying that you are beyond being merely intellectually dishonest.

And note, up until now I haven't called you a liar. I've said that I call bullshit. You claimed I called you a liar first in order to try and curry some sympathy from the readers.

And I am saying nothing I said was in any way bullshit or a lie, you just don't have a good response to it so you replaced a cogent response with foaming spittle mad dog anger.

Tell you what Jeff, if I had someone go take a picture of that billboard this week and I posted it, THEN would you believe me? Though I continue to fail to see your point - you agree that billboard was put up (and that I was just there) and I have no idea why you think it being there this week is meaningfully different from it being there last year for this debate, but then you have no points in this conversation so far beyond personal attacks and "nuh uh!" to deflect from the conversation so I guess that's par for the course.

Mistwell, if Ireland is such a Hellscape of balkanized violence, then why did you vacation there? Were the old sets of Game of Thrones that important to you?

Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 12:50:36 PM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.
Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.
Succession is often violent, but decentralization doesn't have to be. I'm not particularly sanguine about the future, but there are definitely some positive signals amidst the negative ones. It's the left, after all, who pushed for gay marriage, marijuana legalization, and sanctuary cities, which were all cases of states and municipalities defying federal law. On the right, we see constitutional carry and people like DeSantis pushing strongly for state rights. Even the ACA operates primarily through the states, and things like social security could be pushed down, as well. The main problem in the US is the lack of a standard-bearer. 
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: The Spaniard on April 23, 2022, 01:25:08 PM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.
Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.
Succession is often violent, but decentralization doesn't have to be. I'm not particularly sanguine about the future, but there are definitely some positive signals amidst the negative ones. It's the left, after all, who pushed for gay marriage, marijuana legalization, and sanctuary cities, which were all cases of states and municipalities defying federal law. On the right, we see constitutional carry and people like DeSantis pushing strongly for state rights. Even the ACA operates primarily through the states, and things like social security could be pushed down, as well. The main problem in the US is the lack of a standard-bearer.

I don't see the Feds letting go of control or power easily. There's too many deadbeats that rely on do nothing jobs.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2022, 02:04:39 PM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.

Who's calling people pedophiles and groomers?

Were calling pedophiles and groomers pedophiles and groomers.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Eirikrautha on April 23, 2022, 02:14:19 PM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.
Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.
Succession is often violent, but decentralization doesn't have to be. I'm not particularly sanguine about the future, but there are definitely some positive signals amidst the negative ones. It's the left, after all, who pushed for gay marriage, marijuana legalization, and sanctuary cities, which were all cases of states and municipalities defying federal law. On the right, we see constitutional carry and people like DeSantis pushing strongly for state rights. Even the ACA operates primarily through the states, and things like social security could be pushed down, as well. The main problem in the US is the lack of a standard-bearer.
See, there you go again.  The left was not pushing for decentralization with gay marriage or sanctuary cities.  They were pushing for states to ignore the federal government because the feds weren't doing what they wanted.  As soon as the feds are promoting something the left wants, the left will demand the feds come down on those who defy them like the hammer of Thor.  You're treating this like the left is agreeing with the principle.  The left doesn't have principles, only tactics.  You are a fool if you think anyone can leverage a leftist's previous positions to justify a current argument...
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 02:21:32 PM
Finding common ground sounds great, but in practice it becomes less and less likely as we continue down the current path.
That's why I've argued that we need to decentralize. When there are multiple sides, and each of those sides have hard lines where they won't bend, and those lines cross, the only solutions are 1) genocide, or 2) to allow every side a space. It's also better for minorities, who are disenfranchised 100% of the time in winner-takes-all systems, and those who aren't part of the insanity and just want to be left alone. All the modern problems come from the core assumption that there needs to be One True Law, and it must rule us all.
Agreed 100%.  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.  Would be nice to have it happen peacefully, but I have a feeling it's going the other way.
Succession is often violent, but decentralization doesn't have to be. I'm not particularly sanguine about the future, but there are definitely some positive signals amidst the negative ones. It's the left, after all, who pushed for gay marriage, marijuana legalization, and sanctuary cities, which were all cases of states and municipalities defying federal law. On the right, we see constitutional carry and people like DeSantis pushing strongly for state rights. Even the ACA operates primarily through the states, and things like social security could be pushed down, as well. The main problem in the US is the lack of a standard-bearer.
See, there you go again.  The left was not pushing for decentralization with gay marriage or sanctuary cities.  They were pushing for states to ignore the federal government because the feds weren't doing what they wanted.  As soon as the feds are promoting something the left wants, the left will demand the feds come down on those who defy them like the hammer of Thor.  You're treating this like the left is agreeing with the principle.  The left doesn't have principles, only tactics.  You are a fool if you think anyone can leverage a leftist's previous positions to justify a current argument...
The right doesn't have principles, either. Especially in this case, because we're talking about the establishment right in Washington. When the left demands the Overton window be moved 300 million miles in their direction, the beltway right's only response has been to snivel and beg, "masters, could we maybe move the Overton windows 150 million miles to the left, instead?"

But it does set a precedent. Despite the utter lack of principles on both sides, they've created cases less corrupt people can point to and say, "yes, sometimes it's okay to say fuck you feds".

And as I said, it's the lack of a standard bearer that's the main problem. The closest we have is DeSantis. And while he's been okay on states' rights so far, he has no problem quashing any municipalities who disagree with him. I suspect he's just another unprincipled opportunist, who will favor states' rights while he's a governor, but will suddenly switch and favor federal authority if he gains a national post.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: yancy on April 23, 2022, 04:12:20 PM

Who's calling people pedophiles and groomers?

Were calling pedophiles and groomers pedophiles and groomers.

Pedophiles and groomers *really* don't like being called pedophiles and groomers. Can't say that I blame them, it makes pedophilia and grooming more difficult.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on April 23, 2022, 05:20:05 PM
Dude, you are a liar. That pic you chose to illustrate how awful it is in Ireland is from a year ago at least. Looking at it, the banner looks like an ad banner you could have made at any number of print shops and they don't last a year when exposed to the elements outside. You just threw that pic up thinking that if it looks scary enough, it will make your point for you.

Oh my fucking God Jeff, that banner is there right now. I didn't personally take a picture of it because I was in a cab, so I found a shot someone else took of it on the web (and I never said or implied otherwise). It is in fact there right now. It looks exactly like that right now.

Why on earth would I make this up? I WAS just there. I did see it, and others. I gave you a link to a guy who takes pictures of these things throughout Belfast and he posted a rather similar one THREE DAYS AGO. Are you claiming this stuff isn't in Northern Ireland? If not, what the fuck is your point? I don't think you have one beyond just attacking me rather than my argument.

Quote
You mentioned that people in Ireland are denied employment if they are not the correct religion, kinda like how people are denied employment in the USA if they are not leftist enough for the job.

I am saying it's worse. When it happens in the US it's rare and makes the news. When it happens in Belfast it's just another day and an ordinary job.

Quote
Wrong religions get harassed in Ireland while wrong political thought gets harassed in America. You talk about marches and violence and vandalism which happens once a year instigated by each side. Were you just fucking asleep during the Black Lives Matter and Antifa riots not too long ago? There was burning, looting, and murder in those!

Yes Jeff, that is my point. If you Balkanize, that stuff doesn't go away it becomes standardized and worse. This is the 'good' times in Belfast now. They went through hundreds and hundreds of murders before this for decades! We don't want that situation.

Quote
You just think that the same behaviors are more horrible in a foreign country where you are being a tourist than when it happens here in your own nation because your image of Ireland being something out of Darby O'Gill and the Little People where you could vacation was shattered by reality. Hypocrite!

Wow Jeff you totally missed my point. No, I think this is what your "solution" looks like. It's worse than what we have right now.  To get to this point they went essentially a civil war and it never ended with splitting people up.  And again, I was not there as a tourist or on vacation, but you keep slinging those lies m'kay?

Quote
You are being a duplicitous little shitweasel and I'm saying that you are beyond being merely intellectually dishonest.

And note, up until now I haven't called you a liar. I've said that I call bullshit. You claimed I called you a liar first in order to try and curry some sympathy from the readers.

And I am saying nothing I said was in any way bullshit or a lie, you just don't have a good response to it so you replaced a cogent response with foaming spittle mad dog anger.

Tell you what Jeff, if I had someone go take a picture of that billboard this week and I posted it, THEN would you believe me? Though I continue to fail to see your point - you agree that billboard was put up (and that I was just there) and I have no idea why you think it being there this week is meaningfully different from it being there last year for this debate, but then you have no points in this conversation so far beyond personal attacks and "nuh uh!" to deflect from the conversation so I guess that's par for the course.

Mistwell, if Ireland is such a Hellscape of balkanized violence, then why did you vacation there? Were the old sets of Game of Thrones that important to you?

Its not a "hellscape" it's just worse than the situation we have here for these kinds of issues. And it was MUCH MUCH MUCH worse during the peak of The Troubles. It's an example of how Balkanization within a single nation doesn't go great, and avoiding it is a netter option.

And I DID NOT GO THERE ON VACATION.  The touristy stuff I saw was just extra to what we were doing. Because why not?
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DocJones on April 23, 2022, 05:38:46 PM
Pedophiles and groomers *really* don't like being called pedophiles and groomers. Can't say that I blame them, it makes pedophilia and grooming more difficult.
They're calling themselves "minor attracted persons" now. 
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on April 23, 2022, 05:54:39 PM
Suddenly the tactic of calling everyone you disagree with a Nazi seems a lot less constructive, eh?

Have fun dangling from the lampposts, groomers!

Greetings!

Yep! Notice how all the Leftist Groomers and kiddie-fuckers start to sweat when hordes of normal citizens start getting the ropes ready!

Let them all swing, and swing HIGH! Not just the pedophiles, but also the groomer fucking allies and these duplicitous scum that like to coddle and soft-peddle for groomers and pedophiles. They need to swing high, too.

Can you just imagine the huge crowds of people that would show up to watch groomers and pedophiles swing?

I imagine there would be huge numbers of people.

GROOMERS AND PEDOPHILES GET THE ROPE!!!!

*laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: yancy on April 23, 2022, 06:58:27 PM
And I DID NOT GO THERE ON VACATION.  The touristy stuff I saw was just extra to what we were doing. Because why not?

Yes, grandpa, you told us all before that you went there on another one of your 'secret missions.'

It's almost 7, visiting hours are over, we'll see you again next weekend, now go with the nice nurse and get some strawberry ice cream before they run out and you get stuck with vanilla again.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on April 23, 2022, 08:03:48 PM
  The USA has 5x the murder rate and 10x the violent crime rate, triple the rape rate of Ireland.   So..... That is interesting.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2022, 09:26:21 PM

Who's calling people pedophiles and groomers?

Were calling pedophiles and groomers pedophiles and groomers.

Pedophiles and groomers *really* don't like being called pedophiles and groomers. Can't say that I blame them, it makes pedophilia and grooming more difficult.

Well, the first step to solving ANY problem is recognizing the problem exists.

The west has a pedophile and groomer problem, by identifying the problem and giving it the correct name we shine a light on it, making it more difficult for the cocroaches to scurry away.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2022, 09:27:27 PM
Pedophiles and groomers *really* don't like being called pedophiles and groomers. Can't say that I blame them, it makes pedophilia and grooming more difficult.
They're calling themselves "minor attracted persons" now.

Shark chum, tree ornament, lamp post decoration is what they should be called IMHO.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on April 23, 2022, 10:09:32 PM
Pedophiles and groomers *really* don't like being called pedophiles and groomers. Can't say that I blame them, it makes pedophilia and grooming more difficult.
They're calling themselves "minor attracted persons" now.

Shark chum, tree ornament, lamp post decoration is what they should be called IMHO.

I would not feed SHARK a pedophile or groomer. The man has much better taste than that.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2022, 10:18:11 PM
Pedophiles and groomers *really* don't like being called pedophiles and groomers. Can't say that I blame them, it makes pedophilia and grooming more difficult.
They're calling themselves "minor attracted persons" now.

Shark chum, tree ornament, lamp post decoration is what they should be called IMHO.

I would not feed SHARK a pedophile or groomer. The man has much better taste than that.

Crocodiles? Hienas? Jackals?
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: fixable on April 25, 2022, 04:59:53 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.

  Where do you go when one side calls their opposition nazis and fascists?  Well you get that side calling their opposition pedophiles and groomers.  Guess what you get a few years after that?  Talk time is done and then it get fugly.

   So name calling the worst thing you can think of means you either want the other person to just shut up and go away...or you get them to react in the same way...which leads to a fight.  Lefties picked a fight, and now it looks to me like they are really reconsidering that path and trying to suddenly use reason.

Well to be fair, there are actual fascist tactics taken on the right. Book banning, limiting people's freedoms, suppression of women's rights are all tactics used by the right. Meanwhile you have the right calling anyone who is left a pedophile and groomer, yet you can find a long list of right wing actors and personalities who have engaged in sexual assault and abuse...

https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/ (https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/)

Yet the right wing feels like they should go after everyday citizens and teachers who happen to be gay. I'd be willing to not call one side a nazi if they stopped acting like nazi's.

The right wing 'groomer' narrative has gone so far that it is the baseline accusation used by anyone on the right.

But you can't prove that anyone on the left is a groomer, but go through the list I linked.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on April 25, 2022, 06:48:08 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.

  Where do you go when one side calls their opposition nazis and fascists?  Well you get that side calling their opposition pedophiles and groomers.  Guess what you get a few years after that?  Talk time is done and then it get fugly.

   So name calling the worst thing you can think of means you either want the other person to just shut up and go away...or you get them to react in the same way...which leads to a fight.  Lefties picked a fight, and now it looks to me like they are really reconsidering that path and trying to suddenly use reason.

Well to be fair, there are actual fascist tactics taken on the right. Book banning, limiting people's freedoms, suppression of women's rights are all tactics used by the right. Meanwhile you have the right calling anyone who is left a pedophile and groomer, yet you can find a long list of right wing actors and personalities who have engaged in sexual assault and abuse...

https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/ (https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/)

Yet the right wing feels like they should go after everyday citizens and teachers who happen to be gay. I'd be willing to not call one side a nazi if they stopped acting like nazi's.

The right wing 'groomer' narrative has gone so far that it is the baseline accusation used by anyone on the right.

But you can't prove that anyone on the left is a groomer, but go through the list I linked.

I dunno, can you prove that the whole right wing really does feel that they should persecute gays?

Or is that just the narrative talking?
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on April 25, 2022, 06:53:01 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.

  Where do you go when one side calls their opposition nazis and fascists?  Well you get that side calling their opposition pedophiles and groomers.  Guess what you get a few years after that?  Talk time is done and then it get fugly.

   So name calling the worst thing you can think of means you either want the other person to just shut up and go away...or you get them to react in the same way...which leads to a fight.  Lefties picked a fight, and now it looks to me like they are really reconsidering that path and trying to suddenly use reason.

Well to be fair, there are actual fascist tactics taken on the right. Book banning, limiting people's freedoms, suppression of women's rights are all tactics used by the right. Meanwhile you have the right calling anyone who is left a pedophile and groomer, yet you can find a long list of right wing actors and personalities who have engaged in sexual assault and abuse...

https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/ (https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/)

Yet the right wing feels like they should go after everyday citizens and teachers who happen to be gay. I'd be willing to not call one side a nazi if they stopped acting like nazi's.

The right wing 'groomer' narrative has gone so far that it is the baseline accusation used by anyone on the right.

But you can't prove that anyone on the left is a groomer, but go through the list I linked.

  Looks to me as if the right has just moved to not being fair, as the left likes to play.  You keep saying something that is not true for instance here invoking fascism, while crying like a baby that right leaning people infer lefties are groomers.  Over use an insult and it looks like you get one overused right back at you.  Welcome to the party, enjoy the fruits you have sewn. 
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 25, 2022, 07:04:49 AM
Why, it's like calling people Nazis and other slurs nonstop had unforeseen consequences!

I mean, who could've imagined people might get pissed off?
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on April 25, 2022, 07:12:34 AM
Greetings!

Indeed, the pedophiles, the fucking "Groomers"--and their allies, all need to be burned like pouring salt on a snail. Whenever and wherever you find these people throughout society, don't let them get away. Gather a crowd of good people around you, and confront the pedophiles and groomers. Make them know that they are not welcome or accepted anywhere in society! ;D

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the pedophiles, the fucking groomers, or their smarmy allies. Fuck them all. Be relentless. Be absolutely RUTHLESS.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: fixable on April 26, 2022, 02:52:03 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.

  Where do you go when one side calls their opposition nazis and fascists?  Well you get that side calling their opposition pedophiles and groomers.  Guess what you get a few years after that?  Talk time is done and then it get fugly.

   So name calling the worst thing you can think of means you either want the other person to just shut up and go away...or you get them to react in the same way...which leads to a fight.  Lefties picked a fight, and now it looks to me like they are really reconsidering that path and trying to suddenly use reason.

Well to be fair, there are actual fascist tactics taken on the right. Book banning, limiting people's freedoms, suppression of women's rights are all tactics used by the right. Meanwhile you have the right calling anyone who is left a pedophile and groomer, yet you can find a long list of right wing actors and personalities who have engaged in sexual assault and abuse...

https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/ (https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/)

Yet the right wing feels like they should go after everyday citizens and teachers who happen to be gay. I'd be willing to not call one side a nazi if they stopped acting like nazi's.

The right wing 'groomer' narrative has gone so far that it is the baseline accusation used by anyone on the right.

But you can't prove that anyone on the left is a groomer, but go through the list I linked.

  Looks to me as if the right has just moved to not being fair, as the left likes to play.  You keep saying something that is not true for instance here invoking fascism, while crying like a baby that right leaning people infer lefties are groomers.  Over use an insult and it looks like you get one overused right back at you.  Welcome to the party, enjoy the fruits you have sewn.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily attach a causality to this. Unless you are telling me that the right's response to being called fascists is to call left leaning people groomers? As in a tit-for-tat policy?

But I'd like to compare notes on this.

I'd like for you to provide me of a single incident of a teacher who is in a same sex relationship or a trans teacher who has through their direct action indoctrinated a cis gender student into becoming homosexual or trans. Is there actual evidence of this actually happening? You act like this is an endemic thing where every kid is at risk... but actual instances???

I can on the other hand, provide copious links providing proof that right wing ideologies have banned books, have limited the rights of others, and have promoted hate towards other people. Just watch Tucker Carlson on Fox. These are all things that you can collaborate and gain actual evidence of happening.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2022, 03:04:20 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.

  Where do you go when one side calls their opposition nazis and fascists?  Well you get that side calling their opposition pedophiles and groomers.  Guess what you get a few years after that?  Talk time is done and then it get fugly.

   So name calling the worst thing you can think of means you either want the other person to just shut up and go away...or you get them to react in the same way...which leads to a fight.  Lefties picked a fight, and now it looks to me like they are really reconsidering that path and trying to suddenly use reason.

Well to be fair, there are actual fascist tactics taken on the right. Book banning, limiting people's freedoms, suppression of women's rights are all tactics used by the right. Meanwhile you have the right calling anyone who is left a pedophile and groomer, yet you can find a long list of right wing actors and personalities who have engaged in sexual assault and abuse...

https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/ (https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/)

Yet the right wing feels like they should go after everyday citizens and teachers who happen to be gay. I'd be willing to not call one side a nazi if they stopped acting like nazi's.

The right wing 'groomer' narrative has gone so far that it is the baseline accusation used by anyone on the right.

But you can't prove that anyone on the left is a groomer, but go through the list I linked.

  Looks to me as if the right has just moved to not being fair, as the left likes to play.  You keep saying something that is not true for instance here invoking fascism, while crying like a baby that right leaning people infer lefties are groomers.  Over use an insult and it looks like you get one overused right back at you.  Welcome to the party, enjoy the fruits you have sewn.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily attach a causality to this. Unless you are telling me that the right's response to being called fascists is to call left leaning people groomers? As in a tit-for-tat policy?

But I'd like to compare notes on this.

I'd like for you to provide me of a single incident of a teacher who is in a same sex relationship or a trans teacher who has through their direct action indoctrinated a cis gender student into becoming homosexual or trans. Is there actual evidence of this actually happening? You act like this is an endemic thing where every kid is at risk... but actual instances???

I can on the other hand, provide copious links providing proof that right wing ideologies have banned books, have limited the rights of others, and have promoted hate towards other people. Just watch Tucker Carlson on Fox. These are all things that you can collaborate and gain actual evidence of happening.

You mean right wing people banning books like Dr Zeus?

You mean limiting the right of free expression of anyone that disagress with the DIE cult was a right wing thing?

You mean it's the right wing promoting the hate of Jews, Asians, whites, males and heterosexuals?

As for "Cisgendered" that's a slur, the correct term is NORMAL.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2022, 03:12:29 AM
Remember guys, if you can't provide the exact name and dates of a teacher grooming a children it means it's not happening at all.



It totally isn't happening, don't believe your lying eyes.



Nope, not happening.



Also remember, it's only grooming if they become gay, trans or one of the 666 imaginary genders. Pedos DO NOT GROOM THEIR VICTIMS okay?



And of course never for a second think that the left has a pedophilia problem.

Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on April 26, 2022, 10:17:56 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* What a Leftist moron!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's ok. I think you're a blow hard too. Cheers.

So were you drunk or just hyperbolic? I've got money riding on this.
I vote delusional.

Greetings!

Yeah, he is a brainwashed Marxist freak. Their entire outburst and "analysis" was straight out of cock-sucking, Marxist propaganda. It is the same bullshit talking-points so often found being pumped into college students everywhere in America nowadays.

The same world-view that is pumped into college students on a daily basis, is also found throughout their college textbooks. The same, Marxist propaganda and Marxist-flavoured world-view that Americans see piped into them and served up to them on Mainstream Media, News outlets, and propaganda platforms like "The View", as well as the blatherings of most people in the music and entertainment industries.

So, there you go. Clearly the poster is a deeply brainwashed Marxist cultist. We see hordes of them throughout society nowadays too. The fruits of labour for the last 50 years of cock-sucking Liberals in this country purposely or naively working to get the country corrupted entirely by Marxism.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ok brainwashed marxist freak here. Fair enough... I apologize I was over the top and went too far... It was wrong of me if I insulted any of you or otherwise I've been a jerk (I probably was and yeah I'm sorry about that).

But... I do have something more to say...

You can't balkanize the USA. Because every state is purple... not blue or red. Look at a strong liberal area then go a short car ride and find a conservative enclave.

But I do have some concerns...

I'm sure most people in the real world who differ in political opinion can coexist just fine. Democrat and Republican neighbors probably share driving their kids to school or engage in community events together just fine... and that is good and that is how the USA should work.

But then you have people calling others pedophiles and groomers. I mean where do you go from there? If one side decides that their opponents are unilaterally declared pedophiles and groomers and rapists... how can you have any actual discussion? If you start a conversation with: "You are a pedophile!" then what do you expect to get out of it?

There are people on the right who literally will look at one's sexual orientation and make a judgement that that person is a sexual predator... SOLELY on their sexual orientation. How is that right? I see right wing efforts in Florida and Texas to curtail talking those things and suppressing them

I'm curious to understand why this matters at all.

  Where do you go when one side calls their opposition nazis and fascists?  Well you get that side calling their opposition pedophiles and groomers.  Guess what you get a few years after that?  Talk time is done and then it get fugly.

   So name calling the worst thing you can think of means you either want the other person to just shut up and go away...or you get them to react in the same way...which leads to a fight.  Lefties picked a fight, and now it looks to me like they are really reconsidering that path and trying to suddenly use reason.

Well to be fair, there are actual fascist tactics taken on the right. Book banning, limiting people's freedoms, suppression of women's rights are all tactics used by the right. Meanwhile you have the right calling anyone who is left a pedophile and groomer, yet you can find a long list of right wing actors and personalities who have engaged in sexual assault and abuse...

https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/ (https://old.reddit.com/r/news/comments/da96bi/army_officer_at_maralago_accessed_russian/f1od73c/)

Yet the right wing feels like they should go after everyday citizens and teachers who happen to be gay. I'd be willing to not call one side a nazi if they stopped acting like nazi's.

The right wing 'groomer' narrative has gone so far that it is the baseline accusation used by anyone on the right.

But you can't prove that anyone on the left is a groomer, but go through the list I linked.

  Looks to me as if the right has just moved to not being fair, as the left likes to play.  You keep saying something that is not true for instance here invoking fascism, while crying like a baby that right leaning people infer lefties are groomers.  Over use an insult and it looks like you get one overused right back at you.  Welcome to the party, enjoy the fruits you have sewn.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily attach a causality to this. Unless you are telling me that the right's response to being called fascists is to call left leaning people groomers? As in a tit-for-tat policy?

But I'd like to compare notes on this.

I'd like for you to provide me of a single incident of a teacher who is in a same sex relationship or a trans teacher who has through their direct action indoctrinated a cis gender student into becoming homosexual or trans. Is there actual evidence of this actually happening? You act like this is an endemic thing where every kid is at risk... but actual instances???

I can on the other hand, provide copious links providing proof that right wing ideologies have banned books, have limited the rights of others, and have promoted hate towards other people. Just watch Tucker Carlson on Fox. These are all things that you can collaborate and gain actual evidence of happening.

  No dumbass, i said idiots casually toss insults and are now getting insulted.  Promote hate...weasel words.  Ban books or rights?  GTFO...its not the right banning jack shit these days.  People like you have been picking a fight for a while, and now are starting to shit their pants that they are getting the fight they asked for.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on April 26, 2022, 10:21:32 AM
   Shit heads call people nazi, talking about acting like nazis,  are not in any way interested in any discourse.  THey just want their way and are dishonest shits.  So be it.  Use fighting words, at some point....you get a fight.  God speed.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DocJones on April 26, 2022, 12:44:01 PM
The right wing 'groomer' narrative has gone so far that it is the baseline accusation used by anyone on the right.

What the fuck is this?  What is its purpose?
(https://stream.org/wp-content/uploads/Drag-Queen-Reading.jpg)
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 26, 2022, 01:18:57 PM
The right wing 'groomer' narrative has gone so far that it is the baseline accusation used by anyone on the right.

What the fuck is this?  What is its purpose?
(https://stream.org/wp-content/uploads/Drag-Queen-Reading.jpg)
I think I fought that thing in a prior D&D game.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DocJones on April 26, 2022, 02:14:32 PM
I think I fought that thing in a prior D&D game.
It's an evolved form with spikes that prevent one from placing the traditional millstone around its neck.
How does one dispatch such a beast?

Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 26, 2022, 02:23:50 PM
I think I fought that thing in a prior D&D game.
It's an evolved form with spikes that prevent one from placing the traditional millstone around its neck.
How does one dispatch such a beast?
Vorpal swords go snicker-snack.

Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on April 26, 2022, 06:25:55 PM
The right wing 'groomer' narrative has gone so far that it is the baseline accusation used by anyone on the right.

What the fuck is this?  What is its purpose?
(https://stream.org/wp-content/uploads/Drag-Queen-Reading.jpg)
To find innocent victims to sacrifice to Lord Slaanesh.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: 3catcircus on April 29, 2022, 02:22:30 PM
The right wing 'groomer' narrative has gone so far that it is the baseline accusation used by anyone on the right.

What the fuck is this?  What is its purpose?
(https://stream.org/wp-content/uploads/Drag-Queen-Reading.jpg)
To find innocent victims to sacrifice to Lord Slaanesh.

Here's the thing.  If someone were to be transgendered (usually it's always MTF), but they dressed conservatively, looked like a woman and sounded like a woman and were not trying to indoctrinate children into leftist ideology, I doubt that many people would care. The problem is things like spikehead  or the blue haired commie activists who are men in drag with stubble and deep voices - the only person that thinks that *that* is a woman is the delusional man in drag. 

The same can be said for gay/lesbian - when they *aren't* cigar-chomping bull dukes or flaming swish  girly-men trying to claim that they're normal while flamboyantly acting out, no one gives a shit.  You are a man who looks, dresses, and sounds like a man but you like a deep dicking from your equally-conservative looking husband  behind closed doors? Who cares. You want to adopt kids and raise them to be good people who are patriotic, generous, and caring? Great. But we don't need anyone who is LGBTxxx trying to tell children that everything is wrong with traditional values.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on April 30, 2022, 05:40:56 PM
Here's the thing.  If someone were to be transgendered (usually it's always MTF), but they dressed conservatively, looked like a woman and sounded like a woman and were not trying to indoctrinate children into leftist ideology, I doubt that many people would care. The problem is things like spikehead  or the blue haired commie activists who are men in drag with stubble and deep voices - the only person that thinks that *that* is a woman is the delusional man in drag. 

The same can be said for gay/lesbian - when they *aren't* cigar-chomping bull dukes or flaming swish  girly-men trying to claim that they're normal while flamboyantly acting out, no one gives a shit.  You are a man who looks, dresses, and sounds like a man but you like a deep dicking from your equally-conservative looking husband  behind closed doors? Who cares. You want to adopt kids and raise them to be good people who are patriotic, generous, and caring? Great. But we don't need anyone who is LGBTxxx trying to tell children that everything is wrong with traditional values.
People did use to give a shit, even when they blended in. Gay-bashing and homophobia were a thing, and people were worried about shit like "what the queers are doing to the soil"[1].

That's changed, on both of the two branches of psychopathy we call the political spectrum. And in a large part it's changed because people have seen positive examples. People who were out, or men who wore a dress (whether trans or not; the general public at the time wasn't really aware of those distinctions), but who were charming, or funny, or even... normal. Will & Grace, Queer Eye, Rupaul, and so on.

As a result of that publicity, most people agreed that all those people seem human. So let's give them the same basic rights, and stop panicking.

This is just the next step. So the argument that they should just act normal and people would be fine with it isn't a good one, because the current state is the result of the previous generation not acting normal and blending in. Instead, the criticism should be aimed at what they do that's wrong, or inappropriate, or over the line. Not on being flamboyant.

[1] Not a specific thing that people believed, but a parody from the Dead Milkmen song, Stuart. Awesome animated version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71PNZH1OaW0
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: 3catcircus on May 02, 2022, 08:47:50 PM
Here's the thing.  If someone were to be transgendered (usually it's always MTF), but they dressed conservatively, looked like a woman and sounded like a woman and were not trying to indoctrinate children into leftist ideology, I doubt that many people would care. The problem is things like spikehead  or the blue haired commie activists who are men in drag with stubble and deep voices - the only person that thinks that *that* is a woman is the delusional man in drag. 

The same can be said for gay/lesbian - when they *aren't* cigar-chomping bull dukes or flaming swish  girly-men trying to claim that they're normal while flamboyantly acting out, no one gives a shit.  You are a man who looks, dresses, and sounds like a man but you like a deep dicking from your equally-conservative looking husband  behind closed doors? Who cares. You want to adopt kids and raise them to be good people who are patriotic, generous, and caring? Great. But we don't need anyone who is LGBTxxx trying to tell children that everything is wrong with traditional values.
People did use to give a shit, even when they blended in. Gay-bashing and homophobia were a thing, and people were worried about shit like "what the queers are doing to the soil"[1].

That's changed, on both of the two branches of psychopathy we call the political spectrum. And in a large part it's changed because people have seen positive examples. People who were out, or men who wore a dress (whether trans or not; the general public at the time wasn't really aware of those distinctions), but who were charming, or funny, or even... normal. Will & Grace, Queer Eye, Rupaul, and so on.

As a result of that publicity, most people agreed that all those people seem human. So let's give them the same basic rights, and stop panicking.

This is just the next step. So the argument that they should just act normal and people would be fine with it isn't a good one, because the current state is the result of the previous generation not acting normal and blending in. Instead, the criticism should be aimed at what they do that's wrong, or inappropriate, or over the line. Not on being flamboyant.

[1] Not a specific thing that people believed, but a parody from the Dead Milkmen song, Stuart. Awesome animated version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71PNZH1OaW0

This *isn't* "just the next step." It's an extremist activist agenda.  If it were "just the next step" we wouldn't have The Advocate refer to Ric Grenell (who is gay, but conservative) as "...not popular with LGBTQ people..." We wouldn't have gaycitynews refer to him as "Vichy gay." Competing for "who is gay enough" and declaring those who they deem to not be as "enemies of the (LGBTQ) people" is straight out of the communist playbook.

It's not enough for these extremists to live with normal people tolerating them. They demand celebration of the abnormal. And make no mistake, with gay and lesbian people making up a single digit percentage of the overall population, they aren't the norm. So the rest of us should stop kowtowing to their demands.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: The Spaniard on May 02, 2022, 09:01:47 PM
Here's the thing.  If someone were to be transgendered (usually it's always MTF), but they dressed conservatively, looked like a woman and sounded like a woman and were not trying to indoctrinate children into leftist ideology, I doubt that many people would care. The problem is things like spikehead  or the blue haired commie activists who are men in drag with stubble and deep voices - the only person that thinks that *that* is a woman is the delusional man in drag. 

The same can be said for gay/lesbian - when they *aren't* cigar-chomping bull dukes or flaming swish  girly-men trying to claim that they're normal while flamboyantly acting out, no one gives a shit.  You are a man who looks, dresses, and sounds like a man but you like a deep dicking from your equally-conservative looking husband  behind closed doors? Who cares. You want to adopt kids and raise them to be good people who are patriotic, generous, and caring? Great. But we don't need anyone who is LGBTxxx trying to tell children that everything is wrong with traditional values.
People did use to give a shit, even when they blended in. Gay-bashing and homophobia were a thing, and people were worried about shit like "what the queers are doing to the soil"[1].

That's changed, on both of the two branches of psychopathy we call the political spectrum. And in a large part it's changed because people have seen positive examples. People who were out, or men who wore a dress (whether trans or not; the general public at the time wasn't really aware of those distinctions), but who were charming, or funny, or even... normal. Will & Grace, Queer Eye, Rupaul, and so on.

As a result of that publicity, most people agreed that all those people seem human. So let's give them the same basic rights, and stop panicking.

This is just the next step. So the argument that they should just act normal and people would be fine with it isn't a good one, because the current state is the result of the previous generation not acting normal and blending in. Instead, the criticism should be aimed at what they do that's wrong, or inappropriate, or over the line. Not on being flamboyant.

[1] Not a specific thing that people believed, but a parody from the Dead Milkmen song, Stuart. Awesome animated version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71PNZH1OaW0

This *isn't* "just the next step." It's an extremist activist agenda.  If it were "just the next step" we wouldn't have The Advocate refer to Ric Grenell (who is gay, but conservative) as "...not popular with LGBTQ people..." We wouldn't have gaycitynews refer to him as "Vichy gay." Competing for "who is gay enough" and declaring those who they deem to not be as "enemies of the (LGBTQ) people" is straight out of the communist playbook.

It's not enough for these extremists to live with normal people tolerating them. They demand celebration of the abnormal. And make no mistake, with gay and lesbian people making up a single digit percentage of the overall population, they aren't the norm. So the rest of us should stop kowtowing to their demands.

Yes, 100% this
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on May 02, 2022, 09:15:25 PM
Here's the thing.  If someone were to be transgendered (usually it's always MTF), but they dressed conservatively, looked like a woman and sounded like a woman and were not trying to indoctrinate children into leftist ideology, I doubt that many people would care. The problem is things like spikehead  or the blue haired commie activists who are men in drag with stubble and deep voices - the only person that thinks that *that* is a woman is the delusional man in drag. 

The same can be said for gay/lesbian - when they *aren't* cigar-chomping bull dukes or flaming swish  girly-men trying to claim that they're normal while flamboyantly acting out, no one gives a shit.  You are a man who looks, dresses, and sounds like a man but you like a deep dicking from your equally-conservative looking husband  behind closed doors? Who cares. You want to adopt kids and raise them to be good people who are patriotic, generous, and caring? Great. But we don't need anyone who is LGBTxxx trying to tell children that everything is wrong with traditional values.
People did use to give a shit, even when they blended in. Gay-bashing and homophobia were a thing, and people were worried about shit like "what the queers are doing to the soil"[1].

That's changed, on both of the two branches of psychopathy we call the political spectrum. And in a large part it's changed because people have seen positive examples. People who were out, or men who wore a dress (whether trans or not; the general public at the time wasn't really aware of those distinctions), but who were charming, or funny, or even... normal. Will & Grace, Queer Eye, Rupaul, and so on.

As a result of that publicity, most people agreed that all those people seem human. So let's give them the same basic rights, and stop panicking.

This is just the next step. So the argument that they should just act normal and people would be fine with it isn't a good one, because the current state is the result of the previous generation not acting normal and blending in. Instead, the criticism should be aimed at what they do that's wrong, or inappropriate, or over the line. Not on being flamboyant.

[1] Not a specific thing that people believed, but a parody from the Dead Milkmen song, Stuart. Awesome animated version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71PNZH1OaW0

This *isn't* "just the next step." It's an extremist activist agenda.  If it were "just the next step" we wouldn't have The Advocate refer to Ric Grenell (who is gay, but conservative) as "...not popular with LGBTQ people..." We wouldn't have gaycitynews refer to him as "Vichy gay." Competing for "who is gay enough" and declaring those who they deem to not be as "enemies of the (LGBTQ) people" is straight out of the communist playbook.

It's not enough for these extremists to live with normal people tolerating them. They demand celebration of the abnormal. And make no mistake, with gay and lesbian people making up a single digit percentage of the overall population, they aren't the norm. So the rest of us should stop kowtowing to their demands.
So you didn't read what I said.

Got it.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 10:27:08 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1133267
In a democracy, our solution is usually something we call "elections."
My guess is that their next step will be to legalise a way of being able to cross-reference names with which candidate they voted for. The way the Left keeps getting blindsided by things like Trump and Brexit because the silent majority don't want to risk their careers/lives on speaking Wrong Think aloud, which they can do in the voting booth. This will naturally lead them to try and 'give nazis no safe places to hide', though it will probably be under the guise of preventing voter fraud/foreign agents.

Quote from: DocJones;1133279
I can't wait for the campaign source book.  :-)
Well there is a new edition of Twilight 2000 coming out...

in California, the dept of education sorts job applicants by voting record. if you are not a die hard democrat, and voting FOR every bond measure and money stealing scheme they put out...

You ain't gettin' a Job.

by the way, the above illegal discrimination has spread to other government departments, and not just in California.
The stollen 2020 election should have been a clue.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on May 03, 2022, 12:01:38 AM
And I DID NOT GO THERE ON VACATION.  The touristy stuff I saw was just extra to what we were doing. Because why not?

Yes, grandpa, you told us all before that you went there on another one of your 'secret missions.'

It's almost 7, visiting hours are over, we'll see you again next weekend, now go with the nice nurse and get some strawberry ice cream before they run out and you get stuck with vanilla again.

LOL not a secret mission at all, just none of your guys' business. Anyone who knows me, knows why I was there.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on May 03, 2022, 12:04:43 AM
  The USA has 5x the murder rate and 10x the violent crime rate, triple the rape rate of Ireland.   So..... That is interesting.

I don't know the stats on those for "Northern Ireland." But I do know it's literally a different nation than "Ireland." Which is the point of the conflict of course.

But maybe building walls and shutting gates on Catholic neighborhoods every single evening reduces crime?  Again, not sure the stats for Northern Ireland.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on May 03, 2022, 06:40:15 AM
And I DID NOT GO THERE ON VACATION.  The touristy stuff I saw was just extra to what we were doing. Because why not?

Yes, grandpa, you told us all before that you went there on another one of your 'secret missions.'

It's almost 7, visiting hours are over, we'll see you again next weekend, now go with the nice nurse and get some strawberry ice cream before they run out and you get stuck with vanilla again.

LOL not a secret mission at all, just none of your guys' business. Anyone who knows me, knows why I was there.

You were on vacation. Like any other fucking tourist.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on May 03, 2022, 06:42:39 AM
  The USA has 5x the murder rate and 10x the violent crime rate, triple the rape rate of Ireland.   So..... That is interesting.

I don't know the stats on those for "Northern Ireland." But I do know it's literally a different nation than "Ireland." Which is the point of the conflict of course.

But maybe building walls and shutting gates on Catholic neighborhoods every single evening reduces crime?  Again, not sure the stats for Northern Ireland.

So, days later, you admit to talking out of your ass about the balkanized Hellscape (but still good for a vacation visit) that was Ireland. Like we couldn't tell you were being a liar again by what you wrote.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 03, 2022, 08:43:46 AM
If you're living inside a Martian habitat, you may not have heard about this.

Someone leaked a prelim draft of a SCOTUS opinion that overrules and overturns Roe vs Wade.

And, unsurprisingly, the usual suspects are having a titanic freak out over it.

We're gonna balkanize, I think. The only question is how bloody it gets.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Thornhammer on May 03, 2022, 09:05:59 AM
I can't imagine it will be that difficult to figure out who leaked it. There aren't a lot of people who have access to them in the first place.

It could have been any of them, but it is probably safe to start the investigation with four of the judges and their law clerks.



Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 03, 2022, 09:48:33 AM
I can't imagine it will be that difficult to figure out who leaked it. There aren't a lot of people who have access to them in the first place.

It could have been any of them, but it is probably safe to start the investigation with four of the judges and their law clerks.
The heavy money seems to be on one of Sotomayor's clerks. She's as dumb as a bag of hammers and I can't imagine her clerks are much better.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Eirikrautha on May 03, 2022, 11:03:48 AM
I can't imagine it will be that difficult to figure out who leaked it. There aren't a lot of people who have access to them in the first place.

It could have been any of them, but it is probably safe to start the investigation with four of the judges and their law clerks.
The heavy money seems to be on one of Sotomayor's clerks. She's as dumb as a bag of hammers and I can't imagine her clerks are much better.

Nah, I'm calling it right now.  It'll be a cyber-breach of their systems, which, amazingly, no one will ever be too interested in investigating that resulted in the leak.  That way no one has to fall on a sword, but the news is still out there to help mobilize the base for the democrats during mid-terms (which is what this is actually about... in addition to intimidating justices to see if they can sway someone).  And frankly, I wouldn't put it past the alphabet agencies to actually be hacking and spying on the USSC...
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: moonsweeper on May 03, 2022, 11:28:10 AM
I can't imagine it will be that difficult to figure out who leaked it. There aren't a lot of people who have access to them in the first place.

It could have been any of them, but it is probably safe to start the investigation with four of the judges and their law clerks.
The heavy money seems to be on one of Sotomayor's clerks. She's as dumb as a bag of hammers and I can't imagine her clerks are much better.

Nah, I'm calling it right now.  It'll be a cyber-breach of their systems, which, amazingly, no one will ever be too interested in investigating that resulted in the leak.  That way no one has to fall on a sword, but the news is still out there to help mobilize the base for the democrats during mid-terms (which is what this is actually about... in addition to intimidating justices to see if they can sway someone).  And frankly, I wouldn't put it past the alphabet agencies to actually be hacking and spying on the USSC...


They won't have to investigate...obviously it was the Russians!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on May 03, 2022, 11:44:15 AM
  The legal standing for Roe V Wade to be a federal law/ruling has been on thin ice since it was made.  Even RBG stated this several times and she said it would not win out in any sort of legitimate legal challenge.  If it gets over turned, and abortion becomes a state by state ruling, so be it.  It is how it should have been in the first place.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Pat on May 03, 2022, 06:47:52 PM
  The legal standing for Roe V Wade to be a federal law/ruling has been on thin ice since it was made.  Even RBG stated this several times and she said it would not win out in any sort of legitimate legal challenge.  If it gets over turned, and abortion becomes a state by state ruling, so be it.  It is how it should have been in the first place.
Roe v. Wade is a horrible law, because judges shouldn't be making laws. Especially when they claim it's somehow magically found in the Constitution, because that means the duly elected representatives of the people (however shitty they might be) can't overrule it, without the extreme measure of amending the Constitution.

NPR of course is freaking out, in their extreme leftist way.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: This Ends Tonight on May 03, 2022, 10:28:12 PM
The Republicans just became the dog who caught the car.

As someone who lives in Red State farmland, I always can strongly notice the difference between right-wing poster culture and right-wing people who live off the internet. And oh man, right-wing people who live off the internet are not going to the mat over cancelling abortion rights. But city liberals who live off the internet totally are.

But to tie this in to the overall thread, the people around me don't want to form the Free State of Trump's Cool, they'd much rather push the far-right-wingers who want anything but life as normal into the ocean to find a new homeland and bitch about those dumb liberals, than the reverse. Roe v. Wade might be technically awful law, but it was the easiest way to be where we will inevitably end up no matter what.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Eirikrautha on May 03, 2022, 10:37:38 PM
The Republicans just became the dog who caught the car.

As someone who lives in Red State farmland, I always can strongly notice the difference between right-wing poster culture and right-wing people who live off the internet. And oh man, right-wing people who live off the internet are not going to the mat over cancelling abortion rights. But city liberals who live off the internet totally are.

But to tie this in to the overall thread, the people around me don't want to form the Free State of Trump's Cool, they'd much rather push the far-right-wingers who want anything but life as normal into the ocean to find a new homeland and bitch about those dumb liberals, than the reverse. Roe v. Wade might be technically awful law, but it was the easiest way to be where we will inevitably end up no matter what.
Sure, those Red State farmhands would much rather let libs establish CRT in the schools, dudes in women's bathroom, and have teachers grooming kids than right wingers abolishing abortion... that's who they'd choose to banish.  ::)

I think it's far more likely that you are just seeing what you want to see...
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zelen on May 03, 2022, 10:45:52 PM
I think it's far more likely that a 5 post account is just a sockpuppet trying to stir up trouble.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: yancy on May 03, 2022, 10:56:32 PM
I think it's far more likely that

HEY HEY, HO HO, ROE V. WADE HAS GOT TO GO!
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on May 03, 2022, 11:09:34 PM
And I DID NOT GO THERE ON VACATION.  The touristy stuff I saw was just extra to what we were doing. Because why not?

Yes, grandpa, you told us all before that you went there on another one of your 'secret missions.'

It's almost 7, visiting hours are over, we'll see you again next weekend, now go with the nice nurse and get some strawberry ice cream before they run out and you get stuck with vanilla again.

LOL not a secret mission at all, just none of your guys' business. Anyone who knows me, knows why I was there.

You were on vacation. Like any other fucking tourist.

I wasn't. And you're kinda a shitty human being Jeff.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on May 03, 2022, 11:11:49 PM
  The USA has 5x the murder rate and 10x the violent crime rate, triple the rape rate of Ireland.   So..... That is interesting.

I don't know the stats on those for "Northern Ireland." But I do know it's literally a different nation than "Ireland." Which is the point of the conflict of course.

But maybe building walls and shutting gates on Catholic neighborhoods every single evening reduces crime?  Again, not sure the stats for Northern Ireland.

So, days later, you admit to talking out of your ass about the balkanized Hellscape (but still good for a vacation visit) that was Ireland. Like we couldn't tell you were being a liar again by what you wrote.

WTF are you talking about? I never called it a hellscape YOU DID. I never claimed I knew what their current murder and rape stats were. But you again called it Ireland - which, again, it's NORTHERN Ireland. Not the same country as Ireland. I told you exactly what I saw there (which wasn't during a vacation). Jesus Jeff you really are just plain a shitty human being. I know you live a miserable life, but I suggest the reason your life is miserable is because you're a miserable human being to others. Damn dude, I hope at least your wife loves you.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Shasarak on May 03, 2022, 11:17:35 PM
The Republicans just became the dog who caught the car.

I totally read that as the Dog that caught the Cat and thought, yep that Cat is fucked now.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: This Ends Tonight on May 03, 2022, 11:27:05 PM
The Republicans just became the dog who caught the car.

As someone who lives in Red State farmland, I always can strongly notice the difference between right-wing poster culture and right-wing people who live off the internet. And oh man, right-wing people who live off the internet are not going to the mat over cancelling abortion rights. But city liberals who live off the internet totally are.

But to tie this in to the overall thread, the people around me don't want to form the Free State of Trump's Cool, they'd much rather push the far-right-wingers who want anything but life as normal into the ocean to find a new homeland and bitch about those dumb liberals, than the reverse. Roe v. Wade might be technically awful law, but it was the easiest way to be where we will inevitably end up no matter what.
Sure, those Red State farmhands would much rather let libs establish CRT in the schools, dudes in women's bathroom, and have teachers grooming kids than right wingers abolishing abortion... that's who they'd choose to banish.  ::)

I think it's far more likely that you are just seeing what you want to see...

Nobody really hires farmhands (except part time kids), there's not enough money in farming. But you're missing my main point, poster culture and real life small town America, they don't use the same denominator mentally. And if you think they're ready to declare Confederacy over the screed of poster culture, well they're not. They don't like CRT, but it's much like that interview with Virginia moms who voted Youngkin who all said, "Yeah CRT had nothing to do with our vote. We wanted our kids out of the house and back in school." It's real life vs. some internet outrage.

Dudes in women's bathrooms wouldn't be seen as an opinion you can't have out here, but a little uncouth and most wouldn't be ready to freak out about it or cast in such simple terms, even if they're explicitly opposed. And the okay groomer thing is pure poster culture. That's like thinking everybody out here in real red America supports Q because we wouldn't want our babies' blood drank. Again, different denominator. People online all assume they have the masses behind them because they must all agree with you about issues X, Y, and Z, without realizing most people on internet forums sound like absolute lunatics to those masses and they couch all those issues and the world itself differently than you assume. But don't believe it if you don't want to (you or the next guy), I didn't write it to hurt anybody's feelings.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: yancy on May 03, 2022, 11:35:26 PM
lots of words I don't care about
Yeah, whatever.

HEY HEY, HO HO, ROE V. WADE HAS GOT TO GO!


And I DID NOT GO THERE ON VACATION.  The touristy stuff I saw was just extra to what we were doing. Because why not?

Yes, grandpa, you told us all before that you went there on another one of your 'secret missions.'

It's almost 7, visiting hours are over, we'll see you again next weekend, now go with the nice nurse and get some strawberry ice cream before they run out and you get stuck with vanilla again.

LOL not a secret mission at all, just none of your guys' business. Anyone who knows me, knows why I was there.

You were on vacation. Like any other fucking tourist.

I wasn't. And you're kinda a shitty human being Jeff.

Grandpa you've been home for two weeks, your friends here are all tired of hearing about how you hung out with the Red Hand during your vacation. Besides, I looked at your photo of them and the "Red Hand" are just the other people on the tour, and the tour guide.

Now go along with Lloyd and watch your movie, I think tonight is lemon custard!
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: This Ends Tonight on May 03, 2022, 11:48:00 PM
lots of words I don't care about
Yeah, whatever.


That's exactly what they say about you. In the abstract, they don't know you. And they don't chant.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: yancy on May 04, 2022, 12:16:17 AM
That's exactly what they zzzzzz ominous rumblings

HEY HEY, HO HO, ROE V. WADE HAS GOT TO GO!


Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on May 04, 2022, 01:02:53 AM
That's exactly what they zzzzzz ominous rumblings

HEY HEY, HO HO, ROE V. WADE HAS GOT TO GO!

This has zero to do with the topic but every time I see your handle I think of The Thing from Fantastic Four, who grew up on Yancy Street in the Bronx, and who often talked about the Yancy Street Gang in the comics.

(https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/6/64684/1327938-yancy_street.jpg)
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 04, 2022, 01:37:30 AM
The Republicans just became the dog who caught the car.

Personally, I'm shocked the SCOTUS even went there. They could easily have just let a 50 year old ruling be.


Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 07:53:03 AM
  Well, people are shitting their pants over what is an opinion draft.   It is not as if the SCOTUS was about to rule on a case.  I think it is hilarious lefties are losing their minds to find out one of the most conservative justices is against making laws from the bench.  I suspect it is just an attempt to prevent the midterms from being such a bloodbath.   As for how much people in red areas are against abortion, assuming they are going to talk about this in day to day conversation is IMO folly.  after 50 years of CONSTANT msm and hollywood propaganda about the wonders of killing a baby I think you might get a lot of trump like answers about how they tell you in public they can not stand the guy....then they go in private and vote for him.


   For me, its a non issue.  If someone wants to kill their baby,  it is on them.  Just do not subsidize it federally or with any other tax money and I have no involvement.  If it gets overturned (the ruling), it should.  I suspect most states would still make laws allowing abortion as it is at this point a check point of "Americana" as it has been normalized for a looong time, so the people who want them will still get them.  It just wont stand on terrible legal precedence anymore, which is my only concern with it.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 04, 2022, 08:01:50 AM
  Well, people are shitting their pants over what is an opinion draft.   It is not as if the SCOTUS was about to rule on a case.  I think it is hilarious lefties are losing their minds to find out one of the most conservative justices is against making laws from the bench.  I suspect it is just an attempt to prevent the midterms from being such a bloodbath.   As for how much people in red areas are against abortion, assuming they are going to talk about this in day to day conversation is IMO folly.  after 50 years of CONSTANT msm and hollywood propaganda about the wonders of killing a baby I think you might get a lot of trump like answers about how they tell you in public they can not stand the guy....then they go in private and vote for him.


   For me, its a non issue.  If someone wants to kill their baby,  it is on them.  Just do not subsidize it federally or with any other tax money and I have no involvement.  If it gets overturned (the ruling), it should.  I suspect most states would still make laws allowing abortion as it is at this point a check point of "Americana" as it has been normalized for a looong time, so the people who want them will still get them.  It just wont stand on terrible legal precedence anymore, which is my only concern with it.
Well, actually, they are about to rule on a Mississippi law that bars abortions after something like 15 weeks. OK, the ruling's not due for a month or two, but it is coming.

What's rather funny has been the histrionics. Lots of 'Handmaid's Tale' references (READ ANOTHER BOOK). Completely ignoring how badly the Covid mandates fucked 'medical privacy' and 'my body, my choice'. Bizarre hallucinatory scenarios about forced pregnancy that make me think of disturbing fetish fantasies.

And it was all avoidable. They had fifty years to lock this in with legislation, and instead opted to fetishize it with 'shout your abortion' and other such creepiness. And then they're surprised when things start to backfire.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 08:17:50 AM
  Well, people are shitting their pants over what is an opinion draft.   It is not as if the SCOTUS was about to rule on a case.  I think it is hilarious lefties are losing their minds to find out one of the most conservative justices is against making laws from the bench.  I suspect it is just an attempt to prevent the midterms from being such a bloodbath.   As for how much people in red areas are against abortion, assuming they are going to talk about this in day to day conversation is IMO folly.  after 50 years of CONSTANT msm and hollywood propaganda about the wonders of killing a baby I think you might get a lot of trump like answers about how they tell you in public they can not stand the guy....then they go in private and vote for him.


   For me, its a non issue.  If someone wants to kill their baby,  it is on them.  Just do not subsidize it federally or with any other tax money and I have no involvement.  If it gets overturned (the ruling), it should.  I suspect most states would still make laws allowing abortion as it is at this point a check point of "Americana" as it has been normalized for a looong time, so the people who want them will still get them.  It just wont stand on terrible legal precedence anymore, which is my only concern with it.
Well, actually, they are about to rule on a Mississippi law that bars abortions after something like 15 weeks. OK, the ruling's not due for a month or two, but it is coming.

What's rather funny has been the histrionics. Lots of 'Handmaid's Tale' references (READ ANOTHER BOOK). Completely ignoring how badly the Covid mandates fucked 'medical privacy' and 'my body, my choice'. Bizarre hallucinatory scenarios about forced pregnancy that make me think of disturbing fetish fantasies.

And it was all avoidable. They had fifty years to lock this in with legislation, and instead opted to fetishize it with 'shout your abortion' and other such creepiness. And then they're surprised when things start to backfire.

  The part that always makes me laugh about Handmaid's Tale proclamations is they seem to miss it is simply a world where Christians act like Muslims act NOW.  Yeah I know about the Mississippi thing...but again, its not a ban, its applying a touch of actual humanity to a law that allows a woman to kill her baby.   It also is not there yet, but in any event the OUTRAGE that a very conservative justice would draft a very conservative opinion is hilarious.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 04, 2022, 09:13:50 AM
  Well, people are shitting their pants over what is an opinion draft.   It is not as if the SCOTUS was about to rule on a case.  I think it is hilarious lefties are losing their minds to find out one of the most conservative justices is against making laws from the bench.  I suspect it is just an attempt to prevent the midterms from being such a bloodbath.   As for how much people in red areas are against abortion, assuming they are going to talk about this in day to day conversation is IMO folly.  after 50 years of CONSTANT msm and hollywood propaganda about the wonders of killing a baby I think you might get a lot of trump like answers about how they tell you in public they can not stand the guy....then they go in private and vote for him.


   For me, its a non issue.  If someone wants to kill their baby,  it is on them.  Just do not subsidize it federally or with any other tax money and I have no involvement.  If it gets overturned (the ruling), it should.  I suspect most states would still make laws allowing abortion as it is at this point a check point of "Americana" as it has been normalized for a looong time, so the people who want them will still get them.  It just wont stand on terrible legal precedence anymore, which is my only concern with it.
Well, actually, they are about to rule on a Mississippi law that bars abortions after something like 15 weeks. OK, the ruling's not due for a month or two, but it is coming.

What's rather funny has been the histrionics. Lots of 'Handmaid's Tale' references (READ ANOTHER BOOK). Completely ignoring how badly the Covid mandates fucked 'medical privacy' and 'my body, my choice'. Bizarre hallucinatory scenarios about forced pregnancy that make me think of disturbing fetish fantasies.

And it was all avoidable. They had fifty years to lock this in with legislation, and instead opted to fetishize it with 'shout your abortion' and other such creepiness. And then they're surprised when things start to backfire.

  The part that always makes me laugh about Handmaid's Tale proclamations is they seem to miss it is simply a world where Christians act like Muslims act NOW.  Yeah I know about the Mississippi thing...but again, its not a ban, its applying a touch of actual humanity to a law that allows a woman to kill her baby.   It also is not there yet, but in any event the OUTRAGE that a very conservative justice would draft a very conservative opinion is hilarious.
Putting on my tinfoil hat here, I find it interesting how fast the protest groups showed up when the memo leaked. And with very nice professional signs to boot.

There's some speculation that it's an attempt to distract from the regime's truly spectacular failures on just about every front. Maybe, but if so this was poorly timed. Joe Average voter doesn't have a long attention span, and I don't think they can sustain the outrage long enough to get to November.

Plus, much like the Russia-Ukraine war, it's hard to get all excited when you're paying 3x normal for gas and food.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 11:37:34 AM
  Lefties are ALWAYS ready to mobilize at a moment's notice thanks to billions of dollars in war chests, infrastructure and being able to operate any time they want.  If you try to form a right wing activist organization, you will have a 1 in 10 (at the LOWEST) fed to member ratio inside of a week, and have one of them talk a tard in the group into buying a conversion kit or a shotgun 1/2 too short on barrel length.  So I think it is more a demonstration of how fast these people can mobilize thanks to stacks of cash and being able to operate in any way they want.  So if there is anything that looks tinfoil to me, it is the very obvious difference in treatment from government entities to one spectrum versus the other.  This has led to there being a very efficient network on one side, and reactionary behavior from the other (because one side is NOT ALLOWED to gather and make proactive moves).
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 04, 2022, 02:19:23 PM
  Lefties are ALWAYS ready to mobilize at a moment's notice thanks to billions of dollars in war chests, infrastructure and being able to operate any time they want.  If you try to form a right wing activist organization, you will have a 1 in 10 (at the LOWEST) fed to member ratio inside of a week, and have one of them talk a tard in the group into buying a conversion kit or a shotgun 1/2 too short on barrel length.  So I think it is more a demonstration of how fast these people can mobilize thanks to stacks of cash and being able to operate in any way they want.  So if there is anything that looks tinfoil to me, it is the very obvious difference in treatment from government entities to one spectrum versus the other.  This has led to there being a very efficient network on one side, and reactionary behavior from the other (because one side is NOT ALLOWED to gather and make proactive moves).
The left has always been really good at building (or suborning to their use) institutions, as well as gathering shock troops (as David Z. Hines remarked in his review of Days of Rage).

Review here: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/

I recommend the book, by the way; I'm seeing a lot of really depressing parallels.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Thornhammer on May 04, 2022, 02:37:45 PM
There's some speculation that it's an attempt to distract from the regime's truly spectacular failures on just about every front. Maybe, but if so this was poorly timed. Joe Average voter doesn't have a long attention span, and I don't think they can sustain the outrage long enough to get to November.

Apart from Texas, this is the very first week for state primary elections. And they absolutely need something to interest their voters and distract from the dismal job happening in Washington now.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 02:47:04 PM
There's some speculation that it's an attempt to distract from the regime's truly spectacular failures on just about every front. Maybe, but if so this was poorly timed. Joe Average voter doesn't have a long attention span, and I don't think they can sustain the outrage long enough to get to November.

Apart from Texas, this is the very first week for state primary elections. And they absolutely need something to interest their voters and distract from the dismal job happening in Washington now.

  Just seems a little....ick to have killing unborn babies being the flag to rally to.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 04, 2022, 02:48:22 PM
There's some speculation that it's an attempt to distract from the regime's truly spectacular failures on just about every front. Maybe, but if so this was poorly timed. Joe Average voter doesn't have a long attention span, and I don't think they can sustain the outrage long enough to get to November.

Apart from Texas, this is the very first week for state primary elections. And they absolutely need something to interest their voters and distract from the dismal job happening in Washington now.

  Just seems a little....ick to have killing unborn babies being the flag to rally to.
These are the same lunatics who wanted to make 'shout your abortion' a hashtag on Twitter.

I mean, come on, we just saw them go to the mat in defense of grooming children. This really shouldn't be a surprise.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 03:01:32 PM
There's some speculation that it's an attempt to distract from the regime's truly spectacular failures on just about every front. Maybe, but if so this was poorly timed. Joe Average voter doesn't have a long attention span, and I don't think they can sustain the outrage long enough to get to November.

Apart from Texas, this is the very first week for state primary elections. And they absolutely need something to interest their voters and distract from the dismal job happening in Washington now.

  Just seems a little....ick to have killing unborn babies being the flag to rally to.
These are the same lunatics who wanted to make 'shout your abortion' a hashtag on Twitter.

I mean, come on, we just saw them go to the mat in defense of grooming children. This really shouldn't be a surprise.

  Yeah, not surprised, I just feel like there are A LOT of left type ideas that are much more hopeful and less polarizing than stuff like that.  A common good, I would even say a well run (laughable, but the idea is a noble one at least) health care for all (and actually affordable, not giving it to some for free and making others premiums hit the roof) and some actual public works projects at least project an image of hope and caring.  Aborting kids is not really all that much hope and care from my perspective.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Drozdovsky on May 04, 2022, 05:29:03 PM
I don't think people realize, Balkanization has never been peaceful. That's a coward's fantasy. You should really look up the political and societal situation of Yugoslavia just before the civil war against Bosnia. Random groups of armed militias, vehicles kept in storage/national guard stockpile being pulled out for use. There is no peaceful resolution, but it seems just like Yugoslavia it will be ethnically oriented with politics being only half of it.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 04, 2022, 05:44:26 PM
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/ (https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/)
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on May 04, 2022, 06:00:11 PM
I don't think people realize, Balkanization has never been peaceful. That's a coward's fantasy. You should really look up the political and societal situation of Yugoslavia just before the civil war against Bosnia. Random groups of armed militias, vehicles kept in storage/national guard stockpile being pulled out for use. There is no peaceful resolution, but it seems just like Yugoslavia it will be ethnically oriented with politics being only half of it.

If the armed militias are roughing up the woke, how is that a problem? Isn't that exactly what the woke members of Antifa and BLM did during the riots? Seems that turnabout would be fair play.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 04, 2022, 06:13:11 PM
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/ (https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/)

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Eirikrautha on May 04, 2022, 07:15:09 PM
The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Sadly, the core issue has nothing to do with when human life begins.  It's about whether or not people are expected to live with the consequences of their own actions.  One does not randomly become pregnant.  And there is a large population of so-called "civilized" people (both male and female) who are willing to kill their own children in the womb to escape the consequences of sex.  At that point, there's very little hope that those people will ever seek understanding or compromise...
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Zelen on May 04, 2022, 07:37:23 PM
I don't think people realize, Balkanization has never been peaceful. That's a coward's fantasy. You should really look up the political and societal situation of Yugoslavia just before the civil war against Bosnia. Random groups of armed militias, vehicles kept in storage/national guard stockpile being pulled out for use. There is no peaceful resolution, but it seems just like Yugoslavia it will be ethnically oriented with politics being only half of it.

More or less agreed. This has always been a problem since the civil war in America, since the South wanted to secede from what's always been considered a voluntary union. However, the North, for economic reasons, didn't want to let them leave.

The same problem exists today, with DC & urban areas effectively wanting to enslave vast swathes of the country. Letting people secede peacefully would utterly collapse their regime & power, which cannot be permitted by any means.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Tait Ransom on May 04, 2022, 07:43:55 PM
  The legal standing for Roe V Wade to be a federal law/ruling has been on thin ice since it was made.  Even RBG stated this several times and she said it would not win out in any sort of legitimate legal challenge.  If it gets over turned, and abortion becomes a state by state ruling, so be it.  It is how it should have been in the first place.
Roe v. Wade is a horrible law, because judges shouldn't be making laws. Especially when they claim it's somehow magically found in the Constitution, because that means the duly elected representatives of the people (however shitty they might be) can't overrule it, without the extreme measure of amending the Constitution.

NPR of course is freaking out, in their extreme leftist way.

I’ve seen a few friends losing their mind over this and using RBG as a rallying cry/totem.  I don’t have heart to tell them their beloved RBG thought it was a crap decision
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 04, 2022, 08:00:01 PM
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/ (https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/)

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.

Wait, in the USA murdering a pregnant woman doesn't land you with two accounts of murder?

Since I know the answer is yes then the legal status of the fetus has already been settled, if it's murder for anybody else to kill it then there's no reason to allow the mother to do so because muh empowerment.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 04, 2022, 08:04:33 PM
The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Sadly, the core issue has nothing to do with when human life begins.  It's about whether or not people are expected to live with the consequences of their own actions.  One does not randomly become pregnant.  And there is a large population of so-called "civilized" people (both male and female) who are willing to kill their own children in the womb to escape the consequences of sex.  At that point, there's very little hope that those people will ever seek understanding or compromise...

While I agree that their core issue is to evade the responsability of their own actions the point at where it's alive is relevant since they love to argue it's not life or a human life.

Problem: Unwanted pregnancy.

Solutions:
1.- Don't have sex (alternatively anal/oral sex doesn't get you pregnant)
2.- Contraceptives
3.- Plan B
4.- Give it in adoption.
5.- Put on your big girl panties and pay the piper
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 08:20:02 PM
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/ (https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/)

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.

Wait, in the USA murdering a pregnant woman doesn't land you with two accounts of murder?

Since I know the answer is yes then the legal status of the fetus has already been settled, if it's murder for anybody else to kill it then there's no reason to allow the mother to do so because muh empowerment.

  In most states yes, New York I think made new law that is was just murdering one, since they have an extremely late term abortion standard they did this to appear to at least be consistent. 
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: DocJones on May 04, 2022, 08:32:03 PM
Wait, in the USA murdering a pregnant woman doesn't land you with two accounts of murder?

Since I know the answer is yes then the legal status of the fetus has already been settled, if it's murder for anybody else to kill it then there's no reason to allow the mother to do so because muh empowerment.
Yes, even in California.  The Scott Peterson case where he was convicted of two counts of murder for killing his pregnant wife.

In Ohio, a man was convicted of murder for beating his pregnant wife, which did not kill her but did cause the death of the child she was carrying.

It seems men don't have the right to abort their child. /sarc
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on May 04, 2022, 08:52:14 PM
The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Sadly, the core issue has nothing to do with when human life begins.  It's about whether or not people are expected to live with the consequences of their own actions.  One does not randomly become pregnant.  And there is a large population of so-called "civilized" people (both male and female) who are willing to kill their own children in the womb to escape the consequences of sex.  At that point, there's very little hope that those people will ever seek understanding or compromise...

I have to agree. The question is not about the binary of pro-choice or pro-life. The question is about the personal responsibility of the people involved when having sex.

Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 04, 2022, 08:57:21 PM
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/ (https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/)

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.

Wait, in the USA murdering a pregnant woman doesn't land you with two accounts of murder?

Since I know the answer is yes then the legal status of the fetus has already been settled,

Not according to the last 50 years of legal abortions.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 04, 2022, 08:59:45 PM
The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Sadly, the core issue has nothing to do with when human life begins.  It's about whether or not people are expected to live with the consequences of their own actions.  One does not randomly become pregnant.  And there is a large population of so-called "civilized" people (both male and female) who are willing to kill their own children in the womb to escape the consequences of sex.  At that point, there's very little hope that those people will ever seek understanding or compromise...

If you don't think a fetus has the same rights as a baby, is not a "person", for whatever that means, then the consequences are simply use abortion as post-conception birth control.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Mistwell on May 04, 2022, 09:57:49 PM
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/ (https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/)

I hadn't seen that one before. Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: SHARK on May 04, 2022, 11:50:15 PM
The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.
Sadly, the core issue has nothing to do with when human life begins.  It's about whether or not people are expected to live with the consequences of their own actions.  One does not randomly become pregnant.  And there is a large population of so-called "civilized" people (both male and female) who are willing to kill their own children in the womb to escape the consequences of sex.  At that point, there's very little hope that those people will ever seek understanding or compromise...

While I agree that their core issue is to evade the responsability of their own actions the point at where it's alive is relevant since they love to argue it's not life or a human life.

Problem: Unwanted pregnancy.

Solutions:
1.- Don't have sex (alternatively anal/oral sex doesn't get you pregnant)
2.- Contraceptives
3.- Plan B
4.- Give it in adoption.
5.- Put on your big girl panties and pay the piper

Greetings!

Exactly, Hermano!

I agree entirely.

There are many "Choices" that women can make when pregnant. It is sad that the whore's "choice" is always to murder the innocent baby growing in her belly. Roe V. Wade has been a terrible moral calamity upon our nation since it's inception. Hoefully, this Supreme Court will correct such a deep moral failure, and overturn Roe V. Wade. Let each state--and it's people--decide how they want to deal with abortion.

The cock-sucking pussy Liberals don't like it? Whaa! Whaa! They can sob in their fucking safe space and *REEE*. Oh, so sad when the wheels of the state turn against you. Grind, grind, grind. Let them all get chewed up by the alligators.

I saw one article TikTok thingy where some bitch was crying about how this court decision will "Ruin Hook Up Culture!"

Fucking whores.

Let the whores get pumped and dumped, and as they hit the fucking WALL, they can marinate in their memories of riding the cock carousel, now that they are doomed to be alone with their wine and fucking cats. Boo fucking hoo.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on May 05, 2022, 12:55:24 AM
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/ (https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/)

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.

Relying on federal law for abortion rights would mean flip-flopping status over the years as Democratic congresses and Republican congresses pass competing laws that change them. Many other core rights have relied on court decisions, like the right to inter-racial marriage. That had been in the hands of state legislatures, but the piecemeal and back-and-forth of state laws made it extremely difficult for couples - such that the Supreme Court took it out of legislatures' hands.

For my two cents on "life starts at conception", I think it makes no sense to call a zygote a person. What makes a person a person is their conscious mind and soul, not their DNA. We regularly create life by growing human tissue samples or creating zygotes for in vitro fertilization (IVF). It is never considered abortions or murder. If someone has their head blown off, we consider them dead, even if we could keep their heart beating - because what defines a person is their thoughts and feelings. A single cell can be alive - but it isn't anywhere close to a person.

Further, zygotes have never been considered people legally or even religiously in the past. If someone discovers they are pregnant, they cannot immediately claim an additional dependent on their taxes. The zygote is not issued a social security number, or registered at all. In short, it is not considered legally a person for anything *except* being killed. Historically, in Christian churches, a pregnancy was not immediately given a Christian name -- and if there was a failed implantation or miscarriage, the expelled tissue was not christened, baptized, or buried on hallowed ground.

Regarding the other topic of responsibility, I feel the primary responsibility is to care for children who are born. The majority of those seeking abortions are already mothers - typically someone whose birth control with their partner failed, who feels that they cannot care for an additional child, and are trying to be responsible to the child or children they already have.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on May 05, 2022, 12:58:19 AM
Though also - keeping this on topic - I don't think overturning Roe v. Wade would increase the incentive of either blue states or red states to secede. People in blue states would experience no change in rights since state law would keep abortions legal, while red states would outlaw abortion.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2022, 01:37:54 AM
Reminder for the pro-abortion, follow the science types:

96% of biologists, regardless of their position on that issue agree; Life begins at fertilization.

So, since it's you who are arguing for a magical moment when the zygote, fetus, etc suddenly becomes a human life... Care to point exactly when?
https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/ (https://quillette.com/2019/10/16/i-asked-thousands-of-biologists-when-life-begins-the-answer-wasnt-popular/)

I'm no biologist, but I'd think that life doesn't begin at conception. It's an unbroken chain leading back billions of years. You could, theoretically, create a geneology chart for every organism back to the first microbes. For a specific organism, life "beings" at the production of the egg and sperm cells that combine to form a zygote. Those two gametes are living things with the potential to become a human being.

Anywhodle. The problem is I can see the merits in both sides of the argument. And I don't think the overturning of Roe v Wade is going to be the end of it. If you believe that a fetus deserves the basic human rights of a child, are you going to be cool with the state next door making it legal to murder them?

The core issue, to my thinking, is that we need a federal decision on what the legal status of a fetus is. Roe v Wade sidestepped this, and that's what led to it's inevitable challenging by the SCOTUS.

Relying on federal law for abortion rights would mean flip-flopping status over the years as Democratic congresses and Republican congresses pass competing laws that change them. Many other core rights have relied on court decisions, like the right to inter-racial marriage. That had been in the hands of state legislatures, but the piecemeal and back-and-forth of state laws made it extremely difficult for couples - such that the Supreme Court took it out of legislatures' hands.

For my two cents on "life starts at conception", I think it makes no sense to call a zygote a person. What makes a person a person is their conscious mind and soul, not their DNA. We regularly create life by growing human tissue samples or creating zygotes for in vitro fertilization (IVF). It is never considered abortions or murder. If someone has their head blown off, we consider them dead, even if we could keep their heart beating - because what defines a person is their thoughts and feelings. A single cell can be alive - but it isn't anywhere close to a person.

Further, zygotes have never been considered people legally or even religiously in the past. If someone discovers they are pregnant, they cannot immediately claim an additional dependent on their taxes. The zygote is not issued a social security number, or registered at all. In short, it is not considered legally a person for anything *except* being killed. Historically, in Christian churches, a pregnancy was not immediately given a Christian name -- and if there was a failed implantation or miscarriage, the expelled tissue was not christened, baptized, or buried on hallowed ground.

Regarding the other topic of responsibility, I feel the primary responsibility is to care for children who are born. The majority of those seeking abortions are already mothers - typically someone whose birth control with their partner failed, who feels that they cannot care for an additional child, and are trying to be responsible to the child or children they already have.

Notice how the one making religious arguments is YOU. No one else is talking about the soul. Because I don't need to, 96% of biologists on both sides of the abortion question say life begins at conception, but "follow the science" jhkim here disagrees because he's a "christian" that is pro abortion.

Blacks weren't considered persons once upon a time jhkim.

Nice, lets punish the innocent for the carelessness of the mother/father... How "Christian" of you.

At what point must a human embryo be terminated and not used anymore for experimentation and why? I don't remember the exact week but it's because "it's experimenting in humans". You monsters have deluded yourselves into believing there's a point where magically what wasn't a human being becomes one. Well biology sorta agrees with that, you just don't like the when because you're in favor of murdering babies.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Effete on May 05, 2022, 01:57:04 AM
Though also - keeping this on topic - I don't think overturning Roe v. Wade would increase the incentive of either blue states or red states to secede. People in blue states would experience no change in rights since state law would keep abortions legal, while red states would outlaw abortion.

Except we're seeing interstate migration at rates we haven't seen in decades. Specifically, people are leaving poorly-managed democrat strongholds for "redder" pastures. There is a cultural awakening happening with the normies, and it's evidenced by things like Netflix collapsing, Disney losing revenue, and the overwhelming support of Daddy Musk buying twatter. It's clear people are getting tired of woke trash, and since humans are invariably a social species, those people will tend toward conservatism a bit more (e.g. AWAY from progressivism).

I'd say the recent trends with population shifts is a good indicator that certain states will galvanize certain voter bases. Blue states will become more blue, red states more red. If this happens, and all the crazies get clustered closer together (left or right) it becomes much more likely someone is going to put secession on the table. The only question is, who will do it first?
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 05, 2022, 02:13:17 AM
Though also - keeping this on topic - I don't think overturning Roe v. Wade would increase the incentive of either blue states or red states to secede.

I agree. I think this will actually relieve a tiny bit of pressure, as some will view it as getting what they want.

Quote
People in blue states would experience no change in rights since state law would keep abortions legal, while red states would outlaw abortion.

I think some blue states will get even more permissive of abortion, even allowing it for a short time post-birth.
And if you think that's crazy, just a few years ago people were laughing at the idea of The Left believing that men could get pregnant. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB2RTRd46us) And now it's a talking point.

And I think red states will still permit abortion in case of danger to the mother, I don't think I've ever heard even the most conservative conservative argue against that.

And I think a lot of states will continue where we are at now. With abortion permitted in the first trimester, prohibited in the third trimester, and waffling about in the second trimester on where teh line should be drawn.



Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jeff37923 on May 05, 2022, 05:25:12 AM
Though also - keeping this on topic - I don't think overturning Roe v. Wade would increase the incentive of either blue states or red states to secede. People in blue states would experience no change in rights since state law would keep abortions legal, while red states would outlaw abortion.

Except we're seeing interstate migration at rates we haven't seen in decades. Specifically, people are leaving poorly-managed democrat strongholds for "redder" pastures. There is a cultural awakening happening with the normies, and it's evidenced by things like Netflix collapsing, Disney losing revenue, and the overwhelming support of Daddy Musk buying twatter. It's clear people are getting tired of woke trash, and since humans are invariably a social species, those people will tend toward conservatism a bit more (e.g. AWAY from progressivism).

I'd say the recent trends with population shifts is a good indicator that certain states will galvanize certain voter bases. Blue states will become more blue, red states more red. If this happens, and all the crazies get clustered closer together (left or right) it becomes much more likely someone is going to put secession on the table. The only question is, who will do it first?

Likewise, with abortion in particular, I think that this will become a part of interstate commerce if Roe vs Wade is overturned. People wanting abortions in states prohibiting that will just travel to states that allow abortions and get them there.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Effete on May 05, 2022, 06:21:26 AM

Likewise, with abortion in particular, I think that this will become a part of interstate commerce if Roe vs Wade is overturned. People wanting abortions in states prohibiting that will just travel to states that allow abortions and get them there.

Without a doubt. About 15 years ago or so, my state had laws prohibiting sales of alcohol on Sunday. Me and my buddies were more than willing to make the ~3 hour roundtrip drive over the border just to buy a couple cases of beer. And it's not like we were as gung-ho about drinking as some of these women are about abortions. I never picketed the Capitol building wearing a beer-helmet with bottlecaps taped over my nipples.

I could also see it going the other way and people just making smarter decisions about their body. In all honesty though, I don't think RvW is getting overturned. This just seems like another distraction to whip people up before the midterms. For example, a couple of the fundraising sites had secured their domain names weeks before the memo was "leaked." With everything else that's happened in the past two years, I no longer believe in coincidence and go straight to conspiracy.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on May 05, 2022, 08:26:53 AM
For my two cents on "life starts at conception", I think it makes no sense to call a zygote a person. What makes a person a person is their conscious mind and soul, not their DNA. We regularly create life by growing human tissue samples or creating zygotes for in vitro fertilization (IVF). It is never considered abortions or murder. If someone has their head blown off, we consider them dead, even if we could keep their heart beating - because what defines a person is their thoughts and feelings. A single cell can be alive - but it isn't anywhere close to a person.

Because I don't need to, 96% of biologists on both sides of the abortion question say life begins at conception, but "follow the science" jhkim here disagrees because he's a "christian" that is pro abortion.
At what point must a human embryo be terminated and not used anymore for experimentation and why? I don't remember the exact week but it's because "it's experimenting in humans". You monsters have deluded yourselves into believing there's a point where magically what wasn't a human being becomes one. Well biology sorta agrees with that, you just don't like the when because you're in favor of murdering babies.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. You sound like you're arguing that "life begins at conception" and therefore a zygote itself is a person. There is a scientific standard (but not a legal one) to only work with embryonic cultures for 14 days, but by your "life begins at conception" argument, any embryonic culture is murder. The 14 day standard argues *against* the idea that life begins at conception.

It's logically *required* that there is some point when there is a threshold that is crossed from material being "not a person" and "a person". You just claim that the "magic" happens at the point of fertilization. I think it's nonsensical to call a single cell a person. The threshold clearly has to be much later.

I think the question is more general:  What would make any life form a person to the point that ending it is murder? I would say that is judged on the capacity for conscious thought - though how that is determined is fuzzy, it's clearly the criteria. In sci-fi, there are many scenarios with artificial life forms, uplifted animals like apes, or aliens. It's some degree of capacity for thought and feeling. Many people oppose killing dolphins or chimps because of their capacity for thought, and some oppose killing dogs, cows, and other higher mammals. There are varying lines.

For abortion, I don't have an exact line that I advocate is absolute, but it is clearly much later than conception if conscious thought is the guideline. I can understand limits on third trimester when at least a brain exists, and I don't oppose such bans.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on May 05, 2022, 08:46:23 AM
For my two cents on "life starts at conception", I think it makes no sense to call a zygote a person. What makes a person a person is their conscious mind and soul, not their DNA. We regularly create life by growing human tissue samples or creating zygotes for in vitro fertilization (IVF). It is never considered abortions or murder. If someone has their head blown off, we consider them dead, even if we could keep their heart beating - because what defines a person is their thoughts and feelings. A single cell can be alive - but it isn't anywhere close to a person.

Because I don't need to, 96% of biologists on both sides of the abortion question say life begins at conception, but "follow the science" jhkim here disagrees because he's a "christian" that is pro abortion.
At what point must a human embryo be terminated and not used anymore for experimentation and why? I don't remember the exact week but it's because "it's experimenting in humans". You monsters have deluded yourselves into believing there's a point where magically what wasn't a human being becomes one. Well biology sorta agrees with that, you just don't like the when because you're in favor of murdering babies.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. You sound like you're arguing that "life begins at conception" and therefore a zygote itself is a person. There is a scientific standard (but not a legal one) to only work with embryonic cultures for 14 days, but by your "life begins at conception" argument, any embryonic culture is murder. The 14 day standard argues *against* the idea that life begins at conception.

It's logically *required* that there is some point when there is a threshold that is crossed from material being "not a person" and "a person". You just claim that the "magic" happens at the point of fertilization. I think it's nonsensical to call a single cell a person. The threshold clearly has to be much later.

I think the question is more general:  What would make any life form a person to the point that ending it is murder? I would say that is judged on the capacity for conscious thought - though how that is determined is fuzzy, it's clearly the criteria. In sci-fi, there are many scenarios with artificial life forms, uplifted animals like apes, or aliens. It's some degree of capacity for thought and feeling. Many people oppose killing dolphins or chimps because of their capacity for thought, and some oppose killing dogs, cows, and other higher mammals. There are varying lines.

For abortion, I don't have an exact line that I advocate is absolute, but it is clearly much later than conception if conscious thought is the guideline. I can understand limits on third trimester when at least a brain exists, and I don't oppose such bans.

    Should be a state decision.  If people want a federal decision do so through congress, not on a bench.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2022, 12:00:38 PM
For my two cents on "life starts at conception", I think it makes no sense to call a zygote a person. What makes a person a person is their conscious mind and soul, not their DNA. We regularly create life by growing human tissue samples or creating zygotes for in vitro fertilization (IVF). It is never considered abortions or murder. If someone has their head blown off, we consider them dead, even if we could keep their heart beating - because what defines a person is their thoughts and feelings. A single cell can be alive - but it isn't anywhere close to a person.

Because I don't need to, 96% of biologists on both sides of the abortion question say life begins at conception, but "follow the science" jhkim here disagrees because he's a "christian" that is pro abortion.
At what point must a human embryo be terminated and not used anymore for experimentation and why? I don't remember the exact week but it's because "it's experimenting in humans". You monsters have deluded yourselves into believing there's a point where magically what wasn't a human being becomes one. Well biology sorta agrees with that, you just don't like the when because you're in favor of murdering babies.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. You sound like you're arguing that "life begins at conception" and therefore a zygote itself is a person. There is a scientific standard (but not a legal one) to only work with embryonic cultures for 14 days, but by your "life begins at conception" argument, any embryonic culture is murder. The 14 day standard argues *against* the idea that life begins at conception.

It's logically *required* that there is some point when there is a threshold that is crossed from material being "not a person" and "a person". You just claim that the "magic" happens at the point of fertilization. I think it's nonsensical to call a single cell a person. The threshold clearly has to be much later.

I think the question is more general:  What would make any life form a person to the point that ending it is murder? I would say that is judged on the capacity for conscious thought - though how that is determined is fuzzy, it's clearly the criteria. In sci-fi, there are many scenarios with artificial life forms, uplifted animals like apes, or aliens. It's some degree of capacity for thought and feeling. Many people oppose killing dolphins or chimps because of their capacity for thought, and some oppose killing dogs, cows, and other higher mammals. There are varying lines.

For abortion, I don't have an exact line that I advocate is absolute, but it is clearly much later than conception if conscious thought is the guideline. I can understand limits on third trimester when at least a brain exists, and I don't oppose such bans.

Yes, life begins at conception, 96% of biologists agree, since the zygote is a human zygote it follows that said life is a human life. But you will rationalize your anti-Christian position to satisfy your lust for murdering babies.

Go and murder a pregnant woman and see if you don't get charged with TWO counts of murder. So your feelings don't matter, you can do all the mental gymnastics you wish to justify murdering babies.

Yeah PETA fuckers and other various animalist idiots are a great moral standard we all should adhere to.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: 3catcircus on May 05, 2022, 06:36:31 PM
For my two cents on "life starts at conception", I think it makes no sense to call a zygote a person. What makes a person a person is their conscious mind and soul, not their DNA. We regularly create life by growing human tissue samples or creating zygotes for in vitro fertilization (IVF). It is never considered abortions or murder. If someone has their head blown off, we consider them dead, even if we could keep their heart beating - because what defines a person is their thoughts and feelings. A single cell can be alive - but it isn't anywhere close to a person.

Because I don't need to, 96% of biologists on both sides of the abortion question say life begins at conception, but "follow the science" jhkim here disagrees because he's a "christian" that is pro abortion.
At what point must a human embryo be terminated and not used anymore for experimentation and why? I don't remember the exact week but it's because "it's experimenting in humans". You monsters have deluded yourselves into believing there's a point where magically what wasn't a human being becomes one. Well biology sorta agrees with that, you just don't like the when because you're in favor of murdering babies.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. You sound like you're arguing that "life begins at conception" and therefore a zygote itself is a person. There is a scientific standard (but not a legal one) to only work with embryonic cultures for 14 days, but by your "life begins at conception" argument, any embryonic culture is murder. The 14 day standard argues *against* the idea that life begins at conception.

It's logically *required* that there is some point when there is a threshold that is crossed from material being "not a person" and "a person". You just claim that the "magic" happens at the point of fertilization. I think it's nonsensical to call a single cell a person. The threshold clearly has to be much later.

I think the question is more general:  What would make any life form a person to the point that ending it is murder? I would say that is judged on the capacity for conscious thought - though how that is determined is fuzzy, it's clearly the criteria. In sci-fi, there are many scenarios with artificial life forms, uplifted animals like apes, or aliens. It's some degree of capacity for thought and feeling. Many people oppose killing dolphins or chimps because of their capacity for thought, and some oppose killing dogs, cows, and other higher mammals. There are varying lines.

For abortion, I don't have an exact line that I advocate is absolute, but it is clearly much later than conception if conscious thought is the guideline. I can understand limits on third trimester when at least a brain exists, and I don't oppose such bans.

The problem isn't with the concept of abortion. The problem is with how "safe, legal, and rare" has turned into "even though it looks like a little human I'm going to bury my head in the sand and call it fetal tissue so I don't have to face the truth of what I'm doing; let's use abortion as a primary means of birth control so we can reward bad behavior and bad choices; let's abort up to and beyond birth; let's let children get abortions without parental knowledge; let's do as many abortions as possible so we can sell the remains for dubious research and keep the money flowing in."

It's a microcosm of the overall greed, stupidity, and laziness that Western society is rife with - partly because western society has no real hardship anymore for most people and partly because regulatory governmental agencies would have to actually investigate.  In the extreme case of Kermit Gosnell, the PA dept of health chose to not stop him - they simply wanted to not know what was going on so they didn't have to act and it took an investigation into potential drug dealing by him that a light was shined on his little shop of horrors...  https://www.globalblackhistory.com/liberal-racism-the-case-of-dr-kermit-gosnell/

So that's where we're at - we've allowed the abortion industry to proceed so far beyond what was reasonable (let alone legal), that we *need* the pendulum to swing as far back in the opposite direction as possible...

And Gosnell isn't an isolated case... https://www.newsweek.com/dc-abortion-pictures-reveal-uncomfortable-truths-opinion-1698021
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Spinachcat on May 05, 2022, 09:07:50 PM
A nation divided cannot stand and the cultural divide is too extreme.

I hope the new abortion kerfluffle creates a soft secession.

The more divergent laws between Red vs. Blue states, the better chance we can move toward complete Secession.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Effete on May 05, 2022, 11:09:44 PM
I think the question is more general:  What would make any life form a person to the point that ending it is murder? I would say that is judged on the capacity for conscious thought - though how that is determined is fuzzy, it's clearly the criteria. In sci-fi, there are many scenarios with artificial life forms, uplifted animals like apes, or aliens. It's some degree of capacity for thought and feeling. Many people oppose killing dolphins or chimps because of their capacity for thought, and some oppose killing dogs, cows, and other higher mammals. There are varying lines.

For abortion, I don't have an exact line that I advocate is absolute, but it is clearly much later than conception if conscious thought is the guideline. I can understand limits on third trimester when at least a brain exists, and I don't oppose such bans.

If the benchmark is "conscious thought," then would it be alright to abort/kill fetus that develop with severe mental retardation or other congenital defects of the brain? The problem with using "conscious thought" is that it's far too subjective. Even you gave a very pisspoor interpretation when you alluded to dogs possibly not having conscious thought. Perhaps you meant sapience (human-like intelligence), because dogs definitely have "conscious thought."

I would place the bencemark at a heartbeat. The heartbeat/pulse is a universal sign of seeing whether someone is "alive," and it doesn't require anyone to fall down the rabbit hole of judging personhood by how well (or poor) someone can think.

Heartbeats develop around the 4th week, meaning stemcell research using live embryos can continue. Women concerned they have become pregnant have a window to get tested, and an objective standard of human life (heartbeat) provides a legal definition for imposing restrictions.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on May 05, 2022, 11:22:05 PM
It's logically *required* that there is some point when there is a threshold that is crossed from material being "not a person" and "a person". You just claim that the "magic" happens at the point of fertilization. I think it's nonsensical to call a single cell a person. The threshold clearly has to be much later.

I think the question is more general:  What would make any life form a person to the point that ending it is murder? I would say that is judged on the capacity for conscious thought - though how that is determined is fuzzy, it's clearly the criteria. In sci-fi, there are many scenarios with artificial life forms, uplifted animals like apes, or aliens. It's some degree of capacity for thought and feeling. Many people oppose killing dolphins or chimps because of their capacity for thought, and some oppose killing dogs, cows, and other higher mammals. There are varying lines.

For abortion, I don't have an exact line that I advocate is absolute, but it is clearly much later than conception if conscious thought is the guideline. I can understand limits on third trimester when at least a brain exists, and I don't oppose such bans.

The problem isn't with the concept of abortion. The problem is with how "safe, legal, and rare" has turned into "even though it looks like a little human I'm going to bury my head in the sand and call it fetal tissue so I don't have to face the truth of what I'm doing; let's use abortion as a primary means of birth control so we can reward bad behavior and bad choices; let's abort up to and beyond birth; let's let children get abortions without parental knowledge; let's do as many abortions as possible so we can sell the remains for dubious research and keep the money flowing in."
In the extreme case of Kermit Gosnell, the PA dept of health chose to not stop him - they simply wanted to not know what was going on so they didn't have to act and it took an investigation into potential drug dealing by him that a light was shined on his little shop of horrors...  https://www.globalblackhistory.com/liberal-racism-the-case-of-dr-kermit-gosnell/

So that's where we're at - we've allowed the abortion industry to proceed so far beyond what was reasonable (let alone legal), that we *need* the pendulum to swing as far back in the opposite direction as possible...

And Gosnell isn't an isolated case... https://www.newsweek.com/dc-abortion-pictures-reveal-uncomfortable-truths-opinion-1698021

Gosnell isn't a sole case, but he is in no way representative of the typical abortion - which happens during the first trimester at around 8 weeks, from a mother who has decided they cannot care for an additional child. In general, the trend of abortions in the U.S. has been this:

(https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/19490.jpeg)
Source: https://www.statista.com/chart/19490/us-abortion-rate-guttmacher-institute/

The rate of abortions has decreased to around half of the peak rate in 1980.

Internationally, the U.S. has roughly similar rates to abortions in most other First World countries - and much less that the post-Soviet countries (especially Russia) - but higher than India or countries where abortion is illegal (like much of Latin America).
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: oggsmash on May 05, 2022, 11:29:32 PM
   I think the folks who want to kill their kids should be able to.  I also hope for their sakes hell is not a thing.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: jhkim on May 06, 2022, 07:17:10 AM
I think the question is more general:  What would make any life form a person to the point that ending it is murder? I would say that is judged on the capacity for conscious thought - though how that is determined is fuzzy, it's clearly the criteria. In sci-fi, there are many scenarios with artificial life forms, uplifted animals like apes, or aliens. It's some degree of capacity for thought and feeling. Many people oppose killing dolphins or chimps because of their capacity for thought, and some oppose killing dogs, cows, and other higher mammals. There are varying lines.

For abortion, I don't have an exact line that I advocate is absolute, but it is clearly much later than conception if conscious thought is the guideline. I can understand limits on third trimester when at least a brain exists, and I don't oppose such bans.

If the benchmark is "conscious thought," then would it be alright to abort/kill fetus that develop with severe mental retardation or other congenital defects of the brain? The problem with using "conscious thought" is that it's far too subjective. Even you gave a very pisspoor interpretation when you alluded to dogs possibly not having conscious thought. Perhaps you meant sapience (human-like intelligence), because dogs definitely have "conscious thought."

I would place the bencemark at a heartbeat. The heartbeat/pulse is a universal sign of seeing whether someone is "alive," and it doesn't require anyone to fall down the rabbit hole of judging personhood by how well (or poor) someone can think.

You criticize that I use conscious thought as a criteria because dogs have conscious thought - but then you propose heartbeat, when even fish or snails have heartbeats. It feels like you're not reading my question. In a science fiction story, if a new life form is encountered - would the determination of whether it is a person or not hinge on whether they have a heartbeat? Or would it be something else?

Within real-world medicine, while heartbeat is the easiest to measure, it isn't the ultimate criteria. If a person's heart fails but they still have a working brain, then doctors try to give them a replacement or artificial heart to continue their life. However, if someone is for sure brain dead then they are put to rest even if their heart is still working.

What defines us as people is our thoughts and feelings, not our blood circulation. Yes, it can be unclear where to draw the line - like when to declare a patient brain dead as their brain function goes away. But there are clear limits. If an infant is born with no brain whatsoever, like extreme anencephaly, then there is no question of trying to save the child.
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: 3catcircus on May 06, 2022, 09:03:42 AM
It's logically *required* that there is some point when there is a threshold that is crossed from material being "not a person" and "a person". You just claim that the "magic" happens at the point of fertilization. I think it's nonsensical to call a single cell a person. The threshold clearly has to be much later.

I think the question is more general:  What would make any life form a person to the point that ending it is murder? I would say that is judged on the capacity for conscious thought - though how that is determined is fuzzy, it's clearly the criteria. In sci-fi, there are many scenarios with artificial life forms, uplifted animals like apes, or aliens. It's some degree of capacity for thought and feeling. Many people oppose killing dolphins or chimps because of their capacity for thought, and some oppose killing dogs, cows, and other higher mammals. There are varying lines.

For abortion, I don't have an exact line that I advocate is absolute, but it is clearly much later than conception if conscious thought is the guideline. I can understand limits on third trimester when at least a brain exists, and I don't oppose such bans.

The problem isn't with the concept of abortion. The problem is with how "safe, legal, and rare" has turned into "even though it looks like a little human I'm going to bury my head in the sand and call it fetal tissue so I don't have to face the truth of what I'm doing; let's use abortion as a primary means of birth control so we can reward bad behavior and bad choices; let's abort up to and beyond birth; let's let children get abortions without parental knowledge; let's do as many abortions as possible so we can sell the remains for dubious research and keep the money flowing in."
In the extreme case of Kermit Gosnell, the PA dept of health chose to not stop him - they simply wanted to not know what was going on so they didn't have to act and it took an investigation into potential drug dealing by him that a light was shined on his little shop of horrors...  https://www.globalblackhistory.com/liberal-racism-the-case-of-dr-kermit-gosnell/

So that's where we're at - we've allowed the abortion industry to proceed so far beyond what was reasonable (let alone legal), that we *need* the pendulum to swing as far back in the opposite direction as possible...

And Gosnell isn't an isolated case... https://www.newsweek.com/dc-abortion-pictures-reveal-uncomfortable-truths-opinion-1698021

Gosnell isn't a sole case, but he is in no way representative of the typical abortion - which happens during the first trimester at around 8 weeks, from a mother who has decided they cannot care for an additional child. In general, the trend of abortions in the U.S. has been this:

(https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/19490.jpeg)
Source: https://www.statista.com/chart/19490/us-abortion-rate-guttmacher-institute/

The rate of abortions has decreased to around half of the peak rate in 1980.

Internationally, the U.S. has roughly similar rates to abortions in most other First World countries - and much less that the post-Soviet countries (especially Russia) - but higher than India or countries where abortion is illegal (like much of Latin America).

You further illustrate the point that a small extremist minority is being allowed to dictate to the rest of us. Why would abortion activists continue to push extreme levels and methods of abortion when fewer women are getting them now?

And, Gosnell is not that rare.  When the state of PA, in the wake of Gosnell, changed state law and started to treat abortion facilities like any other ambulatory surgical facility (and actually inspected them), they were forced to shut down two abortion centers owned by Stephen Brigham where late term abortions (i.e. against PA law) were being performed. Another one which had no doctor or RN on staff and which was right down the street from the state capitol had it's license revoked.  This, after planned Parenthood and other pro-abortion entities fought enactment of the change in the law as being dangerous and unnecessary.

https://thefederalist.com/2016/03/02/pennsylvania-proves-scotus-should-uphold-texas-abortion-safety-standards/

This after PA simply stopped inspecting any abortion facility which directly led to Gosnell's getting away with murder for close to 20 years...  How many other facilities were doing the same or similar?  Well never know.

And it happens wherever authorities bury their heads - it's kind of like that Simpsons episode where Bart goes to France.  No one wants to investigate when he reports child abuse by the farmer, but as soon as he tells them that the farmer is adulterating wine, they finally investigate...
Title: Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
Post by: Drozdovsky on May 06, 2022, 09:26:29 AM
I don't think people realize, Balkanization has never been peaceful. That's a coward's fantasy. You should really look up the political and societal situation of Yugoslavia just before the civil war against Bosnia. Random groups of armed militias, vehicles kept in storage/national guard stockpile being pulled out for use. There is no peaceful resolution, but it seems just like Yugoslavia it will be ethnically oriented with politics being only half of it.

If the armed militias a