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Author Topic: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?  (Read 30802 times)

Pat

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #735 on: May 17, 2022, 07:08:15 PM »
And you run even chances that even if the drifter is caught, that the DA will drop charges because 'social justice'.

If you ever wonder how organized crime sinks its hooks in good and deep, it's crap like that. When people cannot get relief from 'official' sources, they will turn to unofficial ones. And organized criminals will happily fill the void.

Nature abhors a vacuum, after all.
At that point are they really organized crime or just a more tolerable, less corrupt alternate government?
Government is just the organized criminals that won.

3catcircus

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #736 on: May 17, 2022, 07:09:02 PM »
The scary thing is that, so long as you don't interfere with their making money, organized crime has traditionally taken care of their neighbors when the government shits the bed... Making sure those outside the neighborhood stay out of the neighborhood, watching out for the old people, feeding the poor.  What's it say about society when criminal gangs are better citizens then government?!?!

There certainly have been times when organized crime has been more popular with the community than government. Arguably in the 1920s the U.S. verged on this, with some popular outlaws and organized crime figures.

However, I don't think that is true of organized crime in North America today. GeekyBugle has been outspoken about how awful the Mexican cartels are even though he also hates the Mexican government. The U.S. organized crime might be better, but I think it is quite rare for them to be more trusted than the government, even among government critics.

Nowadays, yes. But up until the RICO statutes, OC groups were a lot tighter, loyal, etc.  It's easy to keep street hoodlums out of Little Italy or Little Odessa when you're not worrying about whether another member of your crew is going to that.

Nowadays - cartels, Russian Mafia, etc. are too violent  because the younger generation was raised in a much more liberal society that values nothing except their own hedonism.  Compare that to American Mafia patrolling the waterfronts during WW2 and actively collaborating with law enforcement and military intelligence to prevent sabotage by Nazi sympathizers...  Sure, they were criminals, but they were still patriotic and both they and the law knew there were lines that were not to be crossed.  That's all gone now because government is more corrupt than the criminals...

3catcircus

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #737 on: May 17, 2022, 07:09:54 PM »
The scary thing is that, so long as you don't interfere with their making money, organized crime has traditionally taken care of their neighbors when the government shits the bed... Making sure those outside the neighborhood stay out of the neighborhood, watching out for the old people, feeding the poor.  What's it say about society when criminal gangs are better citizens then government?!?!

There certainly have been times when organized crime has been more popular with the community than government. Arguably in the 1920s the U.S. verged on this, with some popular outlaws and organized crime figures.

However, I don't think that is true of organized crime in North America today. GeekyBugle has been outspoken about how awful the Mexican cartels are even though he also hates the Mexican government. The U.S. organized crime might be better, but I think it is quite rare for them to be more trusted than the government, even among government critics.

Nowadays, yes. But up until the RICO statutes, OC groups were a lot tighter, loyal, etc.  It's easy to keep street hoodlums out of Little Italy or Little Odessa when you're not worrying about whether another member of your crew is going to rat.

Nowadays - cartels, Russian Mafia, etc. are too violent  because the younger generation was raised in a much more liberal society that values nothing except their own hedonism.  Compare that to American Mafia patrolling the waterfronts during WW2 and actively collaborating with law enforcement and military intelligence to prevent sabotage by Nazi sympathizers...  Sure, they were criminals, but they were still patriotic and both they and the law knew there were lines that were not to be crossed.  That's all gone now because government is more corrupt than the criminals...

GeekyBugle

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #738 on: May 17, 2022, 08:18:24 PM »
The scary thing is that, so long as you don't interfere with their making money, organized crime has traditionally taken care of their neighbors when the government shits the bed... Making sure those outside the neighborhood stay out of the neighborhood, watching out for the old people, feeding the poor.  What's it say about society when criminal gangs are better citizens then government?!?!

There certainly have been times when organized crime has been more popular with the community than government. Arguably in the 1920s the U.S. verged on this, with some popular outlaws and organized crime figures.

However, I don't think that is true of organized crime in North America today. GeekyBugle has been outspoken about how awful the Mexican cartels are even though he also hates the Mexican government. The U.S. organized crime might be better, but I think it is quite rare for them to be more trusted than the government, even among government critics.

There are some towns where the Cartels rule, IIRC the people there are happy but either they work in the Cartel or benefit from it by more legal ways.

Also if they show up with their firepower (and you with a 30-30 at best) not many will oppose them and who would speak out against them?

Killing you and your family is just Monday to them.
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Spinachcat

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #739 on: May 19, 2022, 01:37:24 AM »
We'll be seeing the Cartels operating openly in the USA soon enough.

Open borders have consequences.

Much like stolen elections.

jeff37923

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #740 on: May 19, 2022, 05:37:20 AM »
We'll be seeing the Cartels operating openly in the USA soon enough.

Open borders have consequences.

Much like stolen elections.

Dude, the Cartels have been operating in the USA for the last decade at least. Who do think funds la Raza?
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GeekyBugle

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #741 on: May 19, 2022, 05:53:01 PM »
We'll be seeing the Cartels operating openly in the USA soon enough.

Open borders have consequences.

Much like stolen elections.

Dude, the Cartels have been operating in the USA for the last decade at least. Who do think funds la Raza?

And MS13 does deal with the Cartels too.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Spinachcat

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #742 on: May 19, 2022, 07:13:35 PM »
Dude, the Cartels have been operating in the USA for the last decade at least. Who do think funds la Raza?

At UCLA 30 years ago, the La Raza movement was funded with student fees through the Latino Student Union and other "progressive" organizations. I imagine La Raza has all sorts of funding now through the Demonrats and their allies.

Yes, the Cartels have been active in the USA for years, but nothing like what's coming down the pipe. The mass illegal immigration is the perfect cover to bring in thousands of cartel foot soldiers and soon we'll see cartel vs. local gang violence and eventually cartel vs cartel violence in American cities.

But if you notice it, you'll be declared a racist.

oggsmash

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #743 on: May 20, 2022, 01:07:26 PM »
Dude, the Cartels have been operating in the USA for the last decade at least. Who do think funds la Raza?

At UCLA 30 years ago, the La Raza movement was funded with student fees through the Latino Student Union and other "progressive" organizations. I imagine La Raza has all sorts of funding now through the Demonrats and their allies.

Yes, the Cartels have been active in the USA for years, but nothing like what's coming down the pipe. The mass illegal immigration is the perfect cover to bring in thousands of cartel foot soldiers and soon we'll see cartel vs. local gang violence and eventually cartel vs cartel violence in American cities.

But if you notice it, you'll be declared a racist.

  Hell if you link and talk about the stacks of leftie news stories celebrating how immigration is making the USA "less white" and great for them, you are a racist.  Lots of stuff is racist now.  Reality, truth, etc.... all racist.

Zelen

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #744 on: June 22, 2022, 09:34:24 AM »
Dude, the Cartels have been operating in the USA for the last decade at least. Who do think funds la Raza?

At UCLA 30 years ago, the La Raza movement was funded with student fees through the Latino Student Union and other "progressive" organizations. I imagine La Raza has all sorts of funding now through the Demonrats and their allies.

Yes, the Cartels have been active in the USA for years, but nothing like what's coming down the pipe. The mass illegal immigration is the perfect cover to bring in thousands of cartel foot soldiers and soon we'll see cartel vs. local gang violence and eventually cartel vs cartel violence in American cities.

But if you notice it, you'll be declared a racist.

It'd be really easy to mop up the cartels if we could eliminate the CIA. It's telling that we still have all of these criminal organizations in a time when the good guys have access to everyone's cell phone info. They aren't made up of guys like Edward Snowden who you'd expect would reasonably cover their tracks. So the fact that there's still these big operations trafficking tons of drugs internationally shows that the US government knows what's going on and permits it to happen, if not actively facilitates it.

oggsmash

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #745 on: June 22, 2022, 02:14:21 PM »
  I saw a vid discussing Texas and a bill moving through their legislature to step out of the union.  I came across a comment that said sometimes when the wrong people get married a choice between divorce and homicide comes up because they hate one another.  I always think divorce is the right answer in such a decision.

KindaMeh

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #746 on: June 23, 2022, 09:37:00 AM »

My fear I guess would be that homicide may come as a result of the divorce in an instance where it actually goes through. Either the secession happens with a for the most part Democrat controlled federal government, and they feel they have to move to stop it by force if necessary to prevent loss of reputation, and the public that elected the people who voted to secede potentially come to their defense bloodily. Or Republicans snag power nationally or the like and Texas doesn’t really feel the need to follow through on secession. But even if it happened and was somehow successful and happened peacefully, I feel like it would open the door to other such conflicts as this becomes a thing that states think they can do when they don’t get their way/match the exact politics of the national level. Also, could wind up seriously weakening Republicans electorally say for the presidency and set the stage for further mismatches between Republican led states and the feds. More to the point, I feel the world potentially suffers when America is divided, weakened, or wracked by turmoil. We may not always be the perfect paragons of heroism that whoever wishes us to be in our actions abroad, but I do believe we are necessary.

oggsmash

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #747 on: June 23, 2022, 10:06:36 AM »

My fear I guess would be that homicide may come as a result of the divorce in an instance where it actually goes through. Either the secession happens with a for the most part Democrat controlled federal government, and they feel they have to move to stop it by force if necessary to prevent loss of reputation, and the public that elected the people who voted to secede potentially come to their defense bloodily. Or Republicans snag power nationally or the like and Texas doesn’t really feel the need to follow through on secession. But even if it happened and was somehow successful and happened peacefully, I feel like it would open the door to other such conflicts as this becomes a thing that states think they can do when they don’t get their way/match the exact politics of the national level. Also, could wind up seriously weakening Republicans electorally say for the presidency and set the stage for further mismatches between Republican led states and the feds. More to the point, I feel the world potentially suffers when America is divided, weakened, or wracked by turmoil. We may not always be the perfect paragons of heroism that whoever wishes us to be in our actions abroad, but I do believe we are necessary.

  Honestly a big frigging part of the whole problem is Republicans.  They are useless and feckless.  They are as harmful to the nation as democrats are.  I have no issue with America being divided and "weakened".  Many states in the USA are larger, much larger, than most european nations.  Trying to always chase ever expanding GDP with no attention to how that bottom line gets created and no care as to the effects on local communities and people has caused a whole bunch of this bullshit.    As for the USA being an empire flexing the world over...I think time for that has passed.  If the "world" suffers because the USA is no longer propping it up with billions of tax dollars anymore...so be it.  Suffering is a key element to growth, development, and actually solving problems. 

KindaMeh

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #748 on: June 23, 2022, 11:00:33 AM »

My fear I guess would be that homicide may come as a result of the divorce in an instance where it actually goes through. Either the secession happens with a for the most part Democrat controlled federal government, and they feel they have to move to stop it by force if necessary to prevent loss of reputation, and the public that elected the people who voted to secede potentially come to their defense bloodily. Or Republicans snag power nationally or the like and Texas doesn’t really feel the need to follow through on secession. But even if it happened and was somehow successful and happened peacefully, I feel like it would open the door to other such conflicts as this becomes a thing that states think they can do when they don’t get their way/match the exact politics of the national level. Also, could wind up seriously weakening Republicans electorally say for the presidency and set the stage for further mismatches between Republican led states and the feds. More to the point, I feel the world potentially suffers when America is divided, weakened, or wracked by turmoil. We may not always be the perfect paragons of heroism that whoever wishes us to be in our actions abroad, but I do believe we are necessary.

  Honestly a big frigging part of the whole problem is Republicans.  They are useless and feckless.  They are as harmful to the nation as democrats are.  I have no issue with America being divided and "weakened".  Many states in the USA are larger, much larger, than most european nations.  Trying to always chase ever expanding GDP with no attention to how that bottom line gets created and no care as to the effects on local communities and people has caused a whole bunch of this bullshit.    As for the USA being an empire flexing the world over...I think time for that has passed.  If the "world" suffers because the USA is no longer propping it up with billions of tax dollars anymore...so be it.  Suffering is a key element to growth, development, and actually solving problems.

I mean, IDK if any faction that isn't either Republican or Democrat would be able to pull off a secession or hold power after. I guess that may be a problem with a 2 party majoritarian system that doesn't do proportional representation or allow as much for a diversity of viable affiliation with various ideologies. (Not saying we should turn into Germany, and I still revere the founding fathers' vision to some degree, but perhaps worth noting.)

As regards chasing GDP and corporate interests at all costs and political power overshadowing in many cases various local populations and little guys that get stepped on, yeah, that is likewise a problem. Still, I dunno if it can so easily be solved by Balkanization or if successful secession would just trigger the seceding states to become new nations that ignore the needs of districts and municipalities for the "greater good".

I also acknowledge that some US states could out-compete various countries. Assuming that they still have positive trade relations and lines of supply with the rest of America that don't get disrupted, and that the new nation states don't all want to negotiate new trade and tariff agreements within the now dissolved USA, that a huge economic shock doesn't hit everybody, etcetera.

Also, yeah, US influence is dying the world over, and we do at times do too much that doesn't benefit us or even the real global interest. A secession crisis would show the world just how much they rely on us, for sure. That said, I also think at that point China and other authoritarian states rule the roost with zero accountability and we see the rise of a lot of powers I don't think most people would want to see ascendant. More to the point, I think for all its faults, American influence abroad is broadly to the world's benefit and not detriment. Likewise, a strong America, while strength should as you noted earlier not be put above all else at all costs, is still to my mind good for Americans.

oggsmash

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Re: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #749 on: June 23, 2022, 11:36:03 AM »

My fear I guess would be that homicide may come as a result of the divorce in an instance where it actually goes through. Either the secession happens with a for the most part Democrat controlled federal government, and they feel they have to move to stop it by force if necessary to prevent loss of reputation, and the public that elected the people who voted to secede potentially come to their defense bloodily. Or Republicans snag power nationally or the like and Texas doesn’t really feel the need to follow through on secession. But even if it happened and was somehow successful and happened peacefully, I feel like it would open the door to other such conflicts as this becomes a thing that states think they can do when they don’t get their way/match the exact politics of the national level. Also, could wind up seriously weakening Republicans electorally say for the presidency and set the stage for further mismatches between Republican led states and the feds. More to the point, I feel the world potentially suffers when America is divided, weakened, or wracked by turmoil. We may not always be the perfect paragons of heroism that whoever wishes us to be in our actions abroad, but I do believe we are necessary.

  Honestly a big frigging part of the whole problem is Republicans.  They are useless and feckless.  They are as harmful to the nation as democrats are.  I have no issue with America being divided and "weakened".  Many states in the USA are larger, much larger, than most european nations.  Trying to always chase ever expanding GDP with no attention to how that bottom line gets created and no care as to the effects on local communities and people has caused a whole bunch of this bullshit.    As for the USA being an empire flexing the world over...I think time for that has passed.  If the "world" suffers because the USA is no longer propping it up with billions of tax dollars anymore...so be it.  Suffering is a key element to growth, development, and actually solving problems.

I mean, IDK if any faction that isn't either Republican or Democrat would be able to pull off a secession or hold power after. I guess that may be a problem with a 2 party majoritarian system that doesn't do proportional representation or allow as much for a diversity of viable affiliation with various ideologies. (Not saying we should turn into Germany, and I still revere the founding fathers' vision to some degree, but perhaps worth noting.)

As regards chasing GDP and corporate interests at all costs and political power overshadowing in many cases various local populations and little guys that get stepped on, yeah, that is likewise a problem. Still, I dunno if it can so easily be solved by Balkanization or if successful secession would just trigger the seceding states to become new nations that ignore the needs of districts and municipalities for the "greater good".

I also acknowledge that some US states could out-compete various countries. Assuming that they still have positive trade relations and lines of supply with the rest of America that don't get disrupted, and that the new nation states don't all want to negotiate new trade and tariff agreements within the now dissolved USA, that a huge economic shock doesn't hit everybody, etcetera.

Also, yeah, US influence is dying the world over, and we do at times do too much that doesn't benefit us or even the real global interest. A secession crisis would show the world just how much they rely on us, for sure. That said, I also think at that point China and other authoritarian states rule the roost with zero accountability and we see the rise of a lot of powers I don't think most people would want to see ascendant. More to the point, I think for all its faults, American influence abroad is broadly to the world's benefit and not detriment. Likewise, a strong America, while strength should as you noted earlier not be put above all else at all costs, is still to my mind good for Americans.
   
  My point is, neither party wants any such thing to happen, as the parties are in reality made up of a tiny, tiny portion of elite Americans.  The rest of the country is sort of forced to pick a flavor in a duopoly that largely keeps status quo.