It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?

[Chris24601]

You're arguing from the other side, a repentant Vader.

It's the "curse" of being a good Catholic.

I don't hate or want to kill anyone*. I just want certain people to stop hurting other people. If they'd just stop, take their ill-gotten gains and just go away so they stop making things worse... I'd let them go.

The problem is they won't stop. Their hunger is endless because they keep trying to use money and power to fill a hole that can't be filled with either and believe they can't stop now because they buy into the lie that they're beyond all possible redemption (mortal redemption? Possibly. Divine redemption? Never).

That means we have to make them stop hurting other people. I would prefer that to be as non-violently and within the law as possible, but they may not give us that option and the greater good of protecting other people's lives needs to be achieved.

I wish every one of the Woke to be a Darth Vader (or, better, an Agent Kallus who didn't need to have his son about to be murdered to decide to change course).

* For the record I am for Life in all case; I'm against abortion, euthanasia and the death penalty. I understand that sometimes it is necessary to kill to protect the lives of others, but I hate that this fallen world makes that a necessity.

[Ghostmaker]

In general, I am supportive of gun rights, I don't have gun control as a cause, and there are plenty of gun control laws I dislike and would repeal. That said, there are some gun control provisions I support - like banning those convicted of violent crime from buying guns, and the irregular network of bans on straw purchases.

Then again, by specifying the 1968 Gun Control Act - that implies to me keeping the 1934 and 1938 Firearms Acts. Is that because you like ​*some* gun control? That seems like saying it isn't actually a Constitutional right - but rather, just going with what laws you like.

I'm okay with gun control. Use both hands.

Really, the GCA was just the first thing I remembered off the top of my head. I'd like to wipe the whole slate clean.

Also, you're a shithead trying to infer something I didn't say, but that's nothing new.

My apologies for misreading you. I did not intend to put words into your mouth.

Still, I have some questions about this, because this is well outside what I'd expect. Do you really think that convicted criminals should be allowed to stock up on anything - including fully automatic, tripod-mounted machine guns, rocket launchers, and more?

Once again, you're desperately trying to insert things into the argument that weren't said.

I would like to point out that Mexico has gun control, and the cartels seem to have little trouble arming their soldiers, some of whom are most certainly 'convicted criminals'.

But the point is irrelevant. You want to bind me with laws because someone else might do something bad.

And my response is: No. Your move.

Let's sṕeak of México for a bit shall we?

We have 130 million people approx (not counting the fecking illegals your democratic party keeps inviting that have invaded my country) vs USA that has 330 millions approx. That's a little more than 1/3rd of the population of the USA.

The USA had 20,726 "gun deaths" in 2021 (excluding suicide and I think accident.

Just in the first semester of 2021 México had 11,785 murders by firearm, so lets double the number? 23,570 murders by firearm in 2021. That's already 3k more than USA. And we don't have many guns in hands of civilians and we can't carry them.

Now lets turn that into a percapita index shall we?

USA Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000062806

México Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000181308

Either gun control doesn't reduce the number of deaths by firearm or we Méxicans are genetically more prone to kill each other, you decide jhkim.

Still, I have some questions about this, because this is well outside what I'd expect. Do you really think that convicted criminals should be allowed to stock up on anything - including fully automatic, tripod-mounted machine guns, rocket launchers, and more?

Like Tim Pool said: Including nuclear missiles. Your constitution doesn't specify, so if you want to ban civilians from owning nuclear missiles you need to change the constitution.

Part of the big lie was Fast and Furious, the appallingly stupid attempt to prop up the gun control narrative that U.S. stores were selling guns to Mexican cartels. And when you stepped back and looked at it -- especially in light of actual engagements where cartel forces were fielding crew served gear on technicals -- the whole idea was stupid. The cartels are not going to send Jose across the border to buy a handful of poxy AR-15s when they can buy Russian or Chinese surplus gear, or suborn a Mexican Army quartermaster. Silver or lead works wonderfully for convincing people to see it your way, after all.

On a side note, Geeky, check this out: https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/05/14/dem-reps-ask-biden-doj-to-protect-hispanic-communities-that-are-highly-susceptible-to-misinformation/

(Yeah, it's Twitchy, but the sources are there.)

Aren't you glad that the Democrats want to protect Hispanics from 'disinformation'? Like you're children who can't tell a hawk from a handsaw?

[Pat]

You're arguing from the other side, a repentant Vader.

It's the "curse" of being a good Catholic.

I don't hate or want to kill anyone*. I just want certain people to stop hurting other people. If they'd just stop, take their ill-gotten gains and just go away so they stop making things worse... I'd let them go.

The problem is they won't stop. Their hunger is endless because they keep trying to use money and power to fill a hole that can't be filled with either and believe they can't stop now because they buy into the lie that they're beyond all possible redemption (mortal redemption? Possibly. Divine redemption? Never).

That means we have to make them stop hurting other people. I would prefer that to be as non-violently and within the law as possible, but they may not give us that option and the greater good of protecting other people's lives needs to be achieved.

I wish every one of the Woke to be a Darth Vader (or, better, an Agent Kallus who didn't need to have his son about to be murdered to decide to change course).

* For the record I am for Life in all case; I'm against abortion, euthanasia and the death penalty. I understand that sometimes it is necessary to kill to protect the lives of others, but I hate that this fallen world makes that a necessity.

I don't see them stopping any time soon, because they seem to be in a cycle of perpetual escalation. And there aren't any checks, because most of the institutions are actively facilitating them, and despite a few parents pushing back against school boards, most of the public are passively letting them get away with it. The coming red wave at the midterms seems to be driven by the economy and things like Afghanistan, not a general rejection of the Woke ideology.

[GeekyBugle]

In general, I am supportive of gun rights, I don't have gun control as a cause, and there are plenty of gun control laws I dislike and would repeal. That said, there are some gun control provisions I support - like banning those convicted of violent crime from buying guns, and the irregular network of bans on straw purchases.

Then again, by specifying the 1968 Gun Control Act - that implies to me keeping the 1934 and 1938 Firearms Acts. Is that because you like ​*some* gun control? That seems like saying it isn't actually a Constitutional right - but rather, just going with what laws you like.

I'm okay with gun control. Use both hands.

Really, the GCA was just the first thing I remembered off the top of my head. I'd like to wipe the whole slate clean.

Also, you're a shithead trying to infer something I didn't say, but that's nothing new.

My apologies for misreading you. I did not intend to put words into your mouth.

Still, I have some questions about this, because this is well outside what I'd expect. Do you really think that convicted criminals should be allowed to stock up on anything - including fully automatic, tripod-mounted machine guns, rocket launchers, and more?

Once again, you're desperately trying to insert things into the argument that weren't said.

I would like to point out that Mexico has gun control, and the cartels seem to have little trouble arming their soldiers, some of whom are most certainly 'convicted criminals'.

But the point is irrelevant. You want to bind me with laws because someone else might do something bad.

And my response is: No. Your move.

Let's sṕeak of México for a bit shall we?

We have 130 million people approx (not counting the fecking illegals your democratic party keeps inviting that have invaded my country) vs USA that has 330 millions approx. That's a little more than 1/3rd of the population of the USA.

The USA had 20,726 "gun deaths" in 2021 (excluding suicide and I think accident.

Just in the first semester of 2021 México had 11,785 murders by firearm, so lets double the number? 23,570 murders by firearm in 2021. That's already 3k more than USA. And we don't have many guns in hands of civilians and we can't carry them.

Now lets turn that into a percapita index shall we?

USA Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000062806

México Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000181308

Either gun control doesn't reduce the number of deaths by firearm or we Méxicans are genetically more prone to kill each other, you decide jhkim.

Still, I have some questions about this, because this is well outside what I'd expect. Do you really think that convicted criminals should be allowed to stock up on anything - including fully automatic, tripod-mounted machine guns, rocket launchers, and more?

Like Tim Pool said: Including nuclear missiles. Your constitution doesn't specify, so if you want to ban civilians from owning nuclear missiles you need to change the constitution.

Part of the big lie was Fast and Furious, the appallingly stupid attempt to prop up the gun control narrative that U.S. stores were selling guns to Mexican cartels. And when you stepped back and looked at it -- especially in light of actual engagements where cartel forces were fielding crew served gear on technicals -- the whole idea was stupid. The cartels are not going to send Jose across the border to buy a handful of poxy AR-15s when they can buy Russian or Chinese surplus gear, or suborn a Mexican Army quartermaster. Silver or lead works wonderfully for convincing people to see it your way, after all.

On a side note, Geeky, check this out: https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/05/14/dem-reps-ask-biden-doj-to-protect-hispanic-communities-that-are-highly-susceptible-to-misinformation/

(Yeah, it's Twitchy, but the sources are there.)

Aren't you glad that the Democrats want to protect Hispanics from 'disinformation'? Like you're children who can't tell a hawk from a handsaw?

Nothing new here, it's this image but replace black with latino

[Ghostmaker]

Like I said...

The only thing I'm gonna save you from are those tasty, tasty burritos.

I think you can handle everything else.

[GeekyBugle]

Like I said...

The only thing I'm gonna save you from are those tasty, tasty burritos.

I think you can handle everything else.

That's fine, I need to loose weight anyway.

[jhkim]

USA Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000062806

México Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000181308

Either gun control doesn't reduce the number of deaths by firearm or we Méxicans are genetically more prone to kill each other, you decide jhkim.

In general, I agree. Most gun control laws such as enacted in Mexico or California don't appear to reduce the gun murder rate significantly. That's why I support the right to bear arms and don't advocate for gun control. Also, I think that there are many more differences between Mexico and the U.S. other than genetics and gun laws which contribute to the firearm murder rate. U.S. states also have a highly varying firearm murder rate from 0.8 per 100k in Maine to nearly ten times higher of 11 per 100k in Louisiana.

The thing I was disagreeing with is the extreme position that there should be no laws around guns whatsoever. I support shall-issue and other standards of most Republican states.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

[GeekyBugle]

USA Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000062806

México Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000181308

Either gun control doesn't reduce the number of deaths by firearm or we Méxicans are genetically more prone to kill each other, you decide jhkim.

In general, I agree. Most gun control laws such as enacted in Mexico or California don't appear to reduce the gun murder rate significantly. That's why I support the right to bear arms and don't advocate for gun control. Also, I think that there are many more differences between Mexico and the U.S. other than genetics and gun laws which contribute to the firearm murder rate. U.S. states also have a highly varying firearm murder rate from 0.8 per 100k in Maine to nearly ten times higher of 11 per 100k in Louisiana.

The thing I was disagreeing with is the extreme position that there should be no laws around guns whatsoever. I support shall-issue and other standards of most Republican states.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

While I do agree that some laws should exist I very much doubt you and I agree on which ones and to what extent. Furthermore lefties have proven time and again they will take a mile if given an inch.

And Your constitutution says: "Shall not be infringed". Wanna make laws change the constitution.

Yes, there are other differences between México and the USA, mainly that most of the law abiding citizens are unnarmed while the criminals aren't.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

Citation needed.

Edited to add:

No, not most, ALL gun control laws don't work for what you leftoids sell them for. They work wonders for leaving the law abiding at the mercy of criminals and the state (but I repeat myself).

[3catcircus]

USA Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000062806

México Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000181308

Either gun control doesn't reduce the number of deaths by firearm or we Méxicans are genetically more prone to kill each other, you decide jhkim.

In general, I agree. Most gun control laws such as enacted in Mexico or California don't appear to reduce the gun murder rate significantly. That's why I support the right to bear arms and don't advocate for gun control. Also, I think that there are many more differences between Mexico and the U.S. other than genetics and gun laws which contribute to the firearm murder rate. U.S. states also have a highly varying firearm murder rate from 0.8 per 100k in Maine to nearly ten times higher of 11 per 100k in Louisiana.

The thing I was disagreeing with is the extreme position that there should be no laws around guns whatsoever. I support shall-issue and other standards of most Republican states.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

While I do agree that some laws should exist I very much doubt you and I agree on which ones and to what extent. Furthermore lefties have proven time and again they will take a mile if given an inch.

And Your constitutution says: "Shall not be infringed". Wanna make laws change the constitution.

Yes, there are other differences between México and the USA, mainly that most of the law abiding citizens are unnarmed while the criminals aren't.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

Citation needed.

Edited to add:

No, not most, ALL gun control laws don't work for what you leftoids sell them for. They work wonders for leaving the law abiding at the mercy of criminals and the state (but I repeat myself).

The hypocrisy on the left is so thick you can cut it with a knife and fork.  They've been demanding that people give up their right to carry a gun, typically using arguments that no one needs a large capacity, or a large caliber, or a scary-looking AR-15 because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.  *Then* they demand we defund the police.  So while your 90 year old grandmother is being raped and strangled to death by some drifter, they'll either send a social worker to ask him about his feelings or no one will show up at all.

[Ghostmaker]

USA Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000062806

México Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000181308

Either gun control doesn't reduce the number of deaths by firearm or we Méxicans are genetically more prone to kill each other, you decide jhkim.

In general, I agree. Most gun control laws such as enacted in Mexico or California don't appear to reduce the gun murder rate significantly. That's why I support the right to bear arms and don't advocate for gun control. Also, I think that there are many more differences between Mexico and the U.S. other than genetics and gun laws which contribute to the firearm murder rate. U.S. states also have a highly varying firearm murder rate from 0.8 per 100k in Maine to nearly ten times higher of 11 per 100k in Louisiana.

The thing I was disagreeing with is the extreme position that there should be no laws around guns whatsoever. I support shall-issue and other standards of most Republican states.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

While I do agree that some laws should exist I very much doubt you and I agree on which ones and to what extent. Furthermore lefties have proven time and again they will take a mile if given an inch.

And Your constitutution says: "Shall not be infringed". Wanna make laws change the constitution.

Yes, there are other differences between México and the USA, mainly that most of the law abiding citizens are unnarmed while the criminals aren't.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

Citation needed.

Edited to add:

No, not most, ALL gun control laws don't work for what you leftoids sell them for. They work wonders for leaving the law abiding at the mercy of criminals and the state (but I repeat myself).

The hypocrisy on the left is so thick you can cut it with a knife and fork.  They've been demanding that people give up their right to carry a gun, typically using arguments that no one needs a large capacity, or a large caliber, or a scary-looking AR-15 because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.  *Then* they demand we defund the police.  So while your 90 year old grandmother is being raped and strangled to death by some drifter, they'll either send a social worker to ask him about his feelings or no one will show up at all.

And you run even chances that even if the drifter is caught, that the DA will drop charges because 'social justice'.

If you ever wonder how organized crime sinks its hooks in good and deep, it's crap like that. When people cannot get relief from 'official' sources, they will turn to unofficial ones. And organized criminals will happily fill the void.

Nature abhors a vacuum, after all.

[3catcircus]

USA Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000062806

México Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000181308

Either gun control doesn't reduce the number of deaths by firearm or we Méxicans are genetically more prone to kill each other, you decide jhkim.

In general, I agree. Most gun control laws such as enacted in Mexico or California don't appear to reduce the gun murder rate significantly. That's why I support the right to bear arms and don't advocate for gun control. Also, I think that there are many more differences between Mexico and the U.S. other than genetics and gun laws which contribute to the firearm murder rate. U.S. states also have a highly varying firearm murder rate from 0.8 per 100k in Maine to nearly ten times higher of 11 per 100k in Louisiana.

The thing I was disagreeing with is the extreme position that there should be no laws around guns whatsoever. I support shall-issue and other standards of most Republican states.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

While I do agree that some laws should exist I very much doubt you and I agree on which ones and to what extent. Furthermore lefties have proven time and again they will take a mile if given an inch.

And Your constitutution says: "Shall not be infringed". Wanna make laws change the constitution.

Yes, there are other differences between México and the USA, mainly that most of the law abiding citizens are unnarmed while the criminals aren't.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

Citation needed.

Edited to add:

No, not most, ALL gun control laws don't work for what you leftoids sell them for. They work wonders for leaving the law abiding at the mercy of criminals and the state (but I repeat myself).

The hypocrisy on the left is so thick you can cut it with a knife and fork.  They've been demanding that people give up their right to carry a gun, typically using arguments that no one needs a large capacity, or a large caliber, or a scary-looking AR-15 because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.  *Then* they demand we defund the police.  So while your 90 year old grandmother is being raped and strangled to death by some drifter, they'll either send a social worker to ask him about his feelings or no one will show up at all.

And you run even chances that even if the drifter is caught, that the DA will drop charges because 'social justice'.

If you ever wonder how organized crime sinks its hooks in good and deep, it's crap like that. When people cannot get relief from 'official' sources, they will turn to unofficial ones. And organized criminals will happily fill the void.

Nature abhors a vacuum, after all.

The scary thing is that, so long as you don't interfere with their making money, organized crime has traditionally taken care of their neighbors when the government shits the bed... Making sure those outside the neighborhood stay out of the neighborhood, watching out for the old people, feeding the poor.  What's it say about society when criminal gangs are better citizens then government?!?!

[Shasarak]

The scary thing is that, so long as you don't interfere with their making money, organized crime has traditionally taken care of their neighbors when the government shits the bed... Making sure those outside the neighborhood stay out of the neighborhood, watching out for the old people, feeding the poor.  What's it say about society when criminal gangs are better citizens then government?!?!

At least when organised crime screws you over you know its personal, rather then some unfeeling bureaucrat.

[HappyDaze]

USA Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000062806

México Murders by firearm per capita 2021 0.000181308

Either gun control doesn't reduce the number of deaths by firearm or we Méxicans are genetically more prone to kill each other, you decide jhkim.

In general, I agree. Most gun control laws such as enacted in Mexico or California don't appear to reduce the gun murder rate significantly. That's why I support the right to bear arms and don't advocate for gun control. Also, I think that there are many more differences between Mexico and the U.S. other than genetics and gun laws which contribute to the firearm murder rate. U.S. states also have a highly varying firearm murder rate from 0.8 per 100k in Maine to nearly ten times higher of 11 per 100k in Louisiana.

The thing I was disagreeing with is the extreme position that there should be no laws around guns whatsoever. I support shall-issue and other standards of most Republican states.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

While I do agree that some laws should exist I very much doubt you and I agree on which ones and to what extent. Furthermore lefties have proven time and again they will take a mile if given an inch.

And Your constitutution says: "Shall not be infringed". Wanna make laws change the constitution.

Yes, there are other differences between México and the USA, mainly that most of the law abiding citizens are unnarmed while the criminals aren't.

Though I think one of the big issues isn't the laws per se, but that police have been shown to kill people simply for legally carrying a firearm.

Citation needed.

Edited to add:

No, not most, ALL gun control laws don't work for what you leftoids sell them for. They work wonders for leaving the law abiding at the mercy of criminals and the state (but I repeat myself).

The hypocrisy on the left is so thick you can cut it with a knife and fork.  They've been demanding that people give up their right to carry a gun, typically using arguments that no one needs a large capacity, or a large caliber, or a scary-looking AR-15 because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.  *Then* they demand we defund the police.  So while your 90 year old grandmother is being raped and strangled to death by some drifter, they'll either send a social worker to ask him about his feelings or no one will show up at all.

And you run even chances that even if the drifter is caught, that the DA will drop charges because 'social justice'.

If you ever wonder how organized crime sinks its hooks in good and deep, it's crap like that. When people cannot get relief from 'official' sources, they will turn to unofficial ones. And organized criminals will happily fill the void.

Nature abhors a vacuum, after all.

The scary thing is that, so long as you don't interfere with their making money, organized crime has traditionally taken care of their neighbors when the government shits the bed... Making sure those outside the neighborhood stay out of the neighborhood, watching out for the old people, feeding the poor.  What's it say about society when criminal gangs are better citizens then government?!?!

I think your ideas of organized crime are based more on Hollywood portrayals than reality.

[Chris24601]

And you run even chances that even if the drifter is caught, that the DA will drop charges because 'social justice'.

If you ever wonder how organized crime sinks its hooks in good and deep, it's crap like that. When people cannot get relief from 'official' sources, they will turn to unofficial ones. And organized criminals will happily fill the void.

Nature abhors a vacuum, after all.

At that point are they really organized crime or just a more tolerable, less corrupt alternate government?

[jhkim]

The scary thing is that, so long as you don't interfere with their making money, organized crime has traditionally taken care of their neighbors when the government shits the bed... Making sure those outside the neighborhood stay out of the neighborhood, watching out for the old people, feeding the poor.  What's it say about society when criminal gangs are better citizens then government?!?!

There certainly have been times when organized crime has been more popular with the community than government. Arguably in the 1920s the U.S. verged on this, with some popular outlaws and organized crime figures.

However, I don't think that is true of organized crime in North America today. GeekyBugle has been outspoken about how awful the Mexican cartels are even though he also hates the Mexican government. The U.S. organized crime might be better, but I think it is quite rare for them to be more trusted than the government, even among government critics.