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Author Topic: It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?  (Read 30790 times)

oggsmash

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2020, 12:17:41 PM »
A power fantasy?  I have stated pretty completely, it will be a complete chaotic meltdown.  No one will be concerned with China,  As a landmass and nation the USA could be 100 percent independent of the entire world and import next to nothing.  However, cheap slave labor makes that less profitable for multinationals.

   I have no desire to displace anyone, but the choices are going to eventually come down to move to be around people who are not willing to kill you, or die or kill, or capitulate to something that is in your mind horrific.   I am missing the power fantasy in seeing complete meltdown.  I think the rest of the wold will tread lightly, because wrapping a place with your influence is one thing if you know all you get is an orange guy ranting at it.  It is different if some whacko is willing to toss a hotcake your way.   I have no idea what actual foreign influence would be.  I know here it will be a disaster.  Because we will not separate peacefully.  Rome fell.  Empires fall.   No idea what happens 10 years after a fall, but I have a pretty good idea how the first year goes.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 12:21:26 PM by oggsmash »

Shrieking Banshee

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2020, 12:24:17 PM »
Quote from: Zirunel;1133410
It's like the mask of conservative "freedom" is stripped away to reveal the Soviet central planner beneath.


#notallconservatives.
Even with social justice warriors, I know many of them really do believe in the betterment of people just in a twisted way.

This is sort of like the 'Post Apocalyptic' power fantasy:

'Im bitter against society I want it to burn away so I can be hero scavenger guy'

oggsmash

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2020, 12:34:42 PM »
Quote from: Zirunel;1133410
I agree. Dumb and strangely revealing. Here we have supposedly conservative voices blithely spouting plans for huge involuntary population displacements. Treating people as pawns. It's like the mask of conservative "freedom" is stripped away to reveal the Soviet central planner beneath.

This can't just be about abstract political forces and abject populations, any of these schemes would have to confront real people. Human beings, guys, not demographic blocs. People who won't or can't just dutifully pull up stakes, leave homes, farms, jobs, family and plod across the lines the Great Leaders have drawn on a map just because they are too red or too blue.

holy moley, power fantasy indeed.
https://www.therpgsite.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1133410

   How exactly is let's go our own ways central planning?  I would also add, I am not conservative.  I have no idea what liberal or conservative mean anymore.

insubordinate polyhedral

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2020, 12:39:36 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133423
This is sort of like the 'Post Apocalyptic' power fantasy:

'Im bitter against society I want it to burn away so I can be hero scavenger guy'

Yup. This is part of why I tend not to enjoy zombie content (and is what pushed me out of Christianity during the Left Behind craze). Everyone thinks they're gonna be Shaun and can't wait for the apocalypse to show how much of a badass they are. In all likelihood, though, you're gonna be David, or Ed if you're super lucky and have a friend who gives all of the fucks about you. If you wanna be a hero, go do some work where you are to make things better and appreciate how lucky you are thanks to the sacrifices of those who came before you. But that's a hard path and a longer path to glory, so instead, self-righteously trash the system, down with the man, etc. and think one's self a righteous warrior all the while.

oggsmash

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2020, 12:45:25 PM »
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1133426
Yup. This is part of why I tend not to enjoy zombie content (and is what pushed me out of Christianity during the Left Behind craze). Everyone thinks they're gonna be Shaun and can't wait for the apocalypse to show how much of a badass they are. In all likelihood, though, you're gonna be David, or Ed if you're super lucky and have a friend who gives all of the fucks about you. If you wanna be a hero, go do some work where you are to make things better and appreciate how lucky you are thanks to the sacrifices of those who came before you. But that's a hard path and a longer path to glory, so instead, self-righteously trash the system, down with the man, etc. and think one's self a righteous warrior all the while.

  Anyone who thinks that, and is not already good at fighting right now, bare minimum is having a fantasy.... and by good at fighting I mean good with the fist, in good shape, armed and trained and have 10 or similarly minded people with equal qualification.  I am pretty sure I have stated, I am naught but a bystander in all this.  Anyone married with kids, etc is not fighting for any cause.  You will fight for your kids to eat, or you will bend the knee to whoever wins in the area you live.  Or die.

Zirunel

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2020, 12:48:02 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133423
#notallconservatives.
Even with social justice warriors, I know many of them really do believe in the betterment of people just in a twisted way.

This is sort of like the 'Post Apocalyptic' power fantasy:

'Im bitter against society I want it to burn away so I can be hero scavenger guy'

totally agree, it certainly reminds me of the gloating post-apocalyptic sci-fi  fantasies of the 1970s. And yes I can tell you don't buy into the millenarian fantasy, so I'll accept that #notallconservatives.

Shrieking Banshee

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2020, 12:54:09 PM »
Quote from: Zirunel;1133432
totally agree, it certainly reminds me of the gloating post-apocalyptic sci-fi  fantasies of the 1970s. And yes I can tell you don't buy into the millenarian fantasy, so I'll accept that #notallconservatives.
I do think Post Apocalyptic fantasy can be a great examination of current society. Like if we vanished today what would aliens see in a hundred years? Type deals.
But I do get the anger sometimes. I think we all can get somewhat angry and want a desire to lash out at something. Its how we handle it determines the kind of people we are.

Zirunel

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2020, 12:56:52 PM »
Quote from: oggsmash;1133425
https://www.therpgsite.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1133410

   How exactly is let's go our own ways central planning?  
.

We're talking about kicking whole states to the kerb. Or alternatively "we" (what "we" exactly? which Central Committee?) will divvy up the states 25-25, half red and half blue and you've got a year to like it or if the colour doesn't suit you (or your colour doesn't suit us), then get the hell out before the walls come up. The walls! Good God, Khruschev lives!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 01:00:27 PM by Zirunel »

oggsmash

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2020, 01:01:23 PM »
Quote from: Zirunel;1133435
.

We're talking about kicking whole states to the kerb. Or alternatively "we" (what "we" exactly? which Central Committee?) will divvy up the states 25-25, half red and half blue and you've got a year to like it or get the hell out then the walls come up. The walls! Good God, Khruschev lives!

  "We" are not all talking about the same thing apparently.  As to central planning, no,but there is a shift of conservatives definitely having more collective thought.  I do not think it will be some central plan, it will be ragged survivors tired of fighting making an agreement.  At that point I feel most people will go where they want to be.  Or just settle into whatever the area they are in, since it is all nothing more than spit balling, you seem to be taking it a tad seriously.  Conservatives will be forced toward more collectivist action and positions though, and I am not in favor of a collectivist, hardened right wing movement.  But the extremes tend to pull the centers in their direction.  This happens now.

Steven Mitchell

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2020, 01:02:32 PM »
Things that can't go on, won't.  A peaceful compromise requires both sides to see reason.  Not seeing that happening.  An eventual peaceful outcome after a lot of violence requires one side to be beaten badly enough that they quit fighting.  I could see that happening, maybe.  At this point, about the best likely outcome we can hope for is that several of the rabid leftists organizations turn on each other.

oggsmash

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2020, 01:05:36 PM »
Also, lets talk about the word fantasy for a second,  fucking Donald Trump is POTUS.  Anyone who said that will be a thing 8 years ago would have been laughed at to no end.  In the nutty shit going on in the USA, where a bunch of stinky dreadlocked white kids can take over a major city's police precinct, 7 blocks, and town hall, I am not so sure what is or is not fantasy.   Same world where a flu stopped the world dead in its tracks.  Maybe fantasy is the wrong word.  Improbability might be better suited.

Shrieking Banshee

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2020, 02:17:36 PM »
Quote from: oggsmash;1133442
Also, lets talk about the word fantasy for a second,  fucking Donald Trump is POTUS.  Anyone who said that will be a thing 8 years ago would have been laughed at to no end.

The accusation of the word 'Fantasy' isn't that it's unrealistic (at least to me), its the glee I see it supported while ignoring or downplaying all the disastrous consequences not just to their enemies but to themselves.

oggsmash

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2020, 02:28:56 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1133456
The accusation of the word 'Fantasy' isn't that it's unrealistic (at least to me), its the glee I see it supported while ignoring or downplaying all the disastrous consequences not just to their enemies but to themselves.

   I guess a few people have a whiff of glee about people "getting what is coming to them"..  I can not say I feel any glee about any of it.  You respond to me alot, so I have to ask, am I giving any such impression?  Because this being the medium it is, tone doesnt come through terribly well, and I guess I could seem gleeful in forecasting my inevitable horrible death.

Zirunel

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2020, 04:18:38 PM »
Quote from: oggsmash;1133460
I guess a few people have a whiff of glee about people "getting what is coming to them"..  I can not say I feel any glee about any of it.  You respond to me alot, so I have to ask, am I giving any such impression?  Because this being the medium it is, tone doesnt come through terribly well, and I guess I could seem gleeful in forecasting my inevitable horrible death.

I think a few do. And perhaps you aren't one of them. But why don't we go back to the OP? it was not about what might be inevitable, good or bad, but what was desirable. The OP wishlist was

1) partition; but
2) No civil war/ "boogaloo."

 the question was, any ideas how this is possible. The consensus so far seems to be that it isnt.

So what next? If you can't have both the goodies on your wishlist, the next question is, which one do you really want?

1) partition (accepting that it will be civil war/ boogaloo); or
2) a no-civil war no-boogaloo solution (accepting that it means no partition)

Or alternatively, if you still think a no civil war partition option is possible, then that's what the op wants to hear

oggsmash

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It's time for the USA to balkanize. How can that happen peacefully?
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2020, 04:37:45 PM »
Quote from: Zirunel;1133474
I think a few do. And perhaps you aren't one of them. But why don't we go back to the OP? it was not about what might be inevitable, good or bad, but what was desirable. The OP wishlist was

1) partition; but
2) No civil war/ "boogaloo."

 the question was, any ideas how this is possible. The consensus so far seems to be that it isnt.

So what next? If you can't have both the goodies on your wishlist, the next question is, which one do you really want?

1) partition (accepting that it will be civil war/ boogaloo); or
2) a no-civil war no-boogaloo solution (accepting that it means no partition)

Or alternatively, if you still think a no civil war partition option is possible, then that's what the op wants to hear

     Explain what no partition means.   Because that solution to two sides that can not live together looks alot like just leave it as it is.  Which is sort of not an answer.  Expound on the solutions in a no partition, no war scenario and I can answer.