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"It's only censorship if the government does it"

Started by ArrozConLeche, October 17, 2016, 02:07:14 PM

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ArrozConLeche

October 17, 2016, 02:07:14 PM Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 04:01:25 PM by ArrozConLeche
Such an odious little argument. Now I've begun to see it in relation to people taking a knee during the american national anthem. I'd love to see what the regressive left has to say about that now.

Ratman_tf

#1
October 17, 2016, 02:14:14 PM
What's the argument? I haven't heard this one yet.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

ArrozConLeche

#2
October 17, 2016, 02:36:30 PM
Pundit had a pretty good article at everyjoe touching on this: http://www.everyjoe.com/2015/09/08/politics/is-censorship-something-only-government-can-do/#1

I've heard it in various contexts, but you might remember it most from the OBS brouhahas involving products being yanked from the site (or being nearly yanked). Many of the people defending OBS would say something to the effect that OBS wasn't practicing censorship because OBS isn't the government.

Ratman_tf

#3
October 17, 2016, 03:49:54 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;925348Pundit had a pretty good article at everyjoe touching on this: http://www.everyjoe.com/2015/09/08/politics/is-censorship-something-only-government-can-do/#1

I've heard it in various contexts, but you might remember it most from the OBS brouhahas involving products being yanked from the site (or being nearly yanked). Many of the people defending OBS would say something to the effect that OBS wasn't practicing censorship because OBS isn't the government.

Yeah, but what about taking the knee during the anthem specifically?
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Crüesader

#4
October 17, 2016, 04:13:44 PM
If they want to take a knee during the National Anthem, then fine- so be it.  That's their freedom to do so.  Just like it could be the freedom of the NFL to fire them, or the school to put them on the bench.  

My Brother in Law is a high school baseball coach.  He told his team that if they wanted to take a knee, they could do it during the entire game- players disrespecting the flag and National Anthem will be benched for the duration of the game.  

And that article is by Shaun King, living proof that blackface acting isn't funny.

ArrozConLeche

#5
October 17, 2016, 04:18:39 PM
To be sure, the entities do have  a right to fire these people for doing that but it is tantamount to censorship, same as OBS censoring products for being "offensive".

Ratman_tf

#6
October 17, 2016, 04:35:08 PM
Ah, I see the article link now. I thought I was taking crazy pills there for a second.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

ArrozConLeche

#7
October 17, 2016, 04:41:16 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;925374Ah, I see the article link now. I thought I was taking crazy pills there for a second.

I added it later. I forgot to link it and was going to reply to your post with the link, but Cruesader's post sort of made it unnecessary.

Crüesader

#8
October 17, 2016, 04:54:25 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;925371To be sure, the entities do have  a right to fire these people for doing that but it is tantamount to censorship, same as OBS censoring products for being "offensive".

Isn't it funny how these folks are all about 'doing business with whom you chose' when it comes to things being offensive to them?

ArrozConLeche

#9
October 17, 2016, 05:01:55 PM
That's the thing, yeah. I haven't seen a lot of noise from the left on the few cases where people have been fired, or been handed consequences for this particular exercise of free speech. Maybe it's because it hasn't been widely reported. (edit: except for Salon, but they're basically taking the position many of us took for speech the regressive left finds offensive).

In a schadenfreude way, I wish Kaepernick would get fired, just to see how the regressives react, but that would probably alarm me.

kosmos1214

#10
October 17, 2016, 06:03:02 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;925383That's the thing, yeah. I haven't seen a lot of noise from the left on the few cases where people have been fired, or been handed consequences for this particular exercise of free speech. Maybe it's because it hasn't been widely reported. (edit: except for Salon, but they're basically taking the position many of us took for speech the regressive left finds offensive).

In a schadenfreude way, I wish Kaepernick would get fired, just to see how the regressives react, but that would probably alarm me.

I saw it here in my state when we passed concealed carry, there was this big cry out of the the anti-gun nuts to not do any business with any Business that did not put up A no concealed weapons sign.
Interestingly what put an end to it was that the pro-gun part of the state said fine that can go both ways, and it died pretty quick after that.(and you find damn few of the signs to boot)
sjw social just-us warriors

now for a few quotes from my fathers generation
"kill a commie for mommy"

"hey thee i walk through the valley of the shadow of death but i fear no evil because im the meanest son of a bitch in the valley"

jhkim

#11
October 17, 2016, 07:47:43 PM
I think that non-governmental entities can absolutely censor. However, I also think that one privately-owned store not carrying your product is not inherently censorship, nor is it censorship to have a moderated list where people are kicked off for various reasons.  I think that's over-reaching the definition of censorship. A store's policy might be screwed-up, inconsistent, and/or stupid, but it's within their rights.

For examples of non-government censorship, I think that industry-wide standards like the Comics Code or the Hollywood Production Code are a far better example than Pundit's histrionic comparison of OBS to book-burning Nazis. The Comics Code was established across multiple companies which pushed the use of it by all retailers. It was highly pressured. There are plenty of other examples of companies colluding to blacklist and/or restrict content. Various other intimidation or slander tactics would also venture into censorship. However, just someone saying "I think this product is racist/sexist" or "I think this product is un-American/communist" or whatever isn't inherently censorship. Part of free speech is that people should be allowed to voice their opinions about stuff.


I don't think that a company requiring their employees to stand to a flag or song is the same thing. That seems tricky to me, because requiring someone to swear to a flag or stand for an anthem is much more personal.

Out of curiousity, for those who approve of this - does it matter what the flag or song is? For example, a Russian company is certainly allowed to open a U.S. office and hire employees - but what would you think if they required employees to stand for the Russian national anthem? Or if some company owned by radicals required employees to participate in a flag-burning event?

JamesV

#12
October 17, 2016, 08:08:18 PM Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 08:26:10 PM by JamesV
Quote from: Crüesader;925368If they want to take a knee during the National Anthem, then fine- so be it.  That's their freedom to do so.  Just like it could be the freedom of the NFL to fire them, or the school to put them on the bench.  

My Brother in Law is a high school baseball coach.  He told his team that if they wanted to take a knee, they could do it during the entire game- players disrespecting the flag and National Anthem will be benched for the duration of the game.  

And that article is by Shaun King, living proof that blackface acting isn't funny.

Actually, if your BiL works for a public school, that would be a form of censorship. No one is being arrested, but it is a public servant (again in the public school setting) showing that the right to public dissent is punishable in ways that still use the power of the state.
And yes, Shaun King is an ass.
Running: Dogs of WAR - Beer & Pretzels & Bullets
Planning to Run: Godbound or Stars Without Number
Playing: Star Wars D20 Rev.

A lack of moderation doesn\'t mean saying every asshole thing that pops into your head.

yosemitemike

#13
October 17, 2016, 11:32:29 PM
Quote from: jhkim;925398Out of curiousity, for those who approve of this - does it matter what the flag or song is? For example, a Russian company is certainly allowed to open a U.S. office and hire employees - but what would you think if they required employees to stand for the Russian national anthem? Or if some company owned by radicals required employees to participate in a flag-burning event?

I think they would have a difficult time retaining employees.
"I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice."― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

Crüesader

#14
October 18, 2016, 02:13:40 AM
Quote from: JamesV;925400Actually, if your BiL works for a public school, that would be a form of censorship. No one is being arrested, but it is a public servant (again in the public school setting) showing that the right to public dissent is punishable in ways that still use the power of the state.
And yes, Shaun King is an ass.

I don't think it's going to fly in the area he lives.  Just saying.  Plus, he can bench any player he wants to field any other player.  "Little Johnny needs some time in the field, Little Billy has had quite enough.  He can sit out one game".
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