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Author Topic: "It's only censorship if the government does it"  (Read 11680 times)

Bedrockbrendan

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #255 on: October 30, 2016, 01:05:14 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;927894
For myself, I'm not seeing racism in Cruesader's posts at all. Not even a tone or feel of it. What I am seeing is a rude, confrontational and sometimes insulting posting style, surrounding some core ideas that liberals excuse bad behavoir by some people through identity politics, that the problems in black communities are, in his opinion, caused in large part by an attitude that success is "white", and therefore not desirable, and some input by other posters to at least provide some support for the idea.
As long as we're expressing feelings here, and I'm serious, I'm getting the feeling that this approach of "feels" racist is part of how the regressives shut down such discussions. Through attempts at intimidation by accusations of racism. I don't think anyone here is intentionally trying to do that, I do think that current attitudes have been influenced by the regressive influence on society and discourse. I haven't mentioned it until now, because I think going down the rabbit hole of feels isn't productive, and leads to a dead end, but there you have it.

*I do not speak for Cruesader, this is my impression of his posts.

I will say that this is one of the few forums where this kind of conversation wouldn't have been nuked immediatley, so there's that.

People can disagree on whether something is racist.

I've said many times that I believe the left has watered down the term by applying it to everything and to reducing it to things you can barely measure like micro-aggressions. But I also grew up for five years around deeply racist people and believe there is a real spectrum of racism that includes not just KKK or text book "x race is inferior" but also racism that stems from a hostility of/demonization/scarepoating of minority groups. I know what real racists sounded like growing up. My point, like Nexus', is they often sound just like Crusader (and the racism would eventually be confirmed with a bit of digging). We are not saying that is what crusader is. We are just saying, the mood in the room is starting to feel kind of racist. And I think some folks are getting to the point of concluding "If it walks like a duck....".  Labeling something racism shouldn't be a conversation ender but it is an important red flag whenever someone is trying to persuade me of something.

Identifying when racism is at work in a person's argument is just as important as identifying when craziness or political ideology are at work in a person's argument so you can raise your defenses against specious claims and sophistry. If I sense that a person is being motivated by racist views in their argument, I am not going to pay as much attention to what they are saying, or I am going to pay very close attention and vet their facts. Just to give an example of how this would apply to the left too, it is the same way I handle someone on my feed who is clearly a communist and wile they may make compelling arguments I have trouble refuting, I know they come from a disingenuous place and everything they argue is in service to communist ideology. They may be employing facts. They may be drawing on legitimate studies. But they are not really interested in the truth and they are more than happy to mislead or cherry pick if it serves their goals.

On the specific issues being debated, I haven't weighed in, because it isn't something I've examined very closely or researched. So I am not able to intelligently comment on the root causes of crimes. But that isn't what I was commenting on. I was agreeing with posters who sensed something in the tone of the argument and were therefore becoming a little suspicious of his claims. It could have been about any qroup. Islam for example. I have been critical of the religion, and I think it is fair to be critical of things like Salafism, but I would be a bit suspicious of someone who seems to be on a tirade against all the perceived negative features of Islamic culture.

Crüesader
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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #256 on: October 30, 2016, 01:06:38 PM »
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;927867
I am sure you were talking about me Nexus and Tristam based on the discussion. I don't get to decide for the world what is racist. I do get to say what I think is racist and when a discussion starts to feel racist. And yes, this isn't about a specific post. This is about the overall impressions the posts were creating. And I don't think any of us said we had concluded crusader was racist. We basically said he is talking like a lot of the racists we've met in our lives.

So, just so we're clear- you have absolutely no proof I said anything racist, you chose to 'feel' that it was racist, based upon things you've heard other racists say.

Exactly what I fucking thought.

Bedrockbrendan

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« Reply #257 on: October 30, 2016, 01:10:22 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;927899
For this forum, I would agree. Saying that something is racist isn't inherently censorship or silencing.

That said, calling a person a racist is usually a more substantial accusation than them being a shithead. It's an ad hominem argument - which doesn't mean that it's always wrong, but it turns the conversation into being about the posters rather than the topic.

I would agree. It is more substantial than calling someone a shithead. I don't think they are equal claims. If I have to choose between spending time with a shit head or spending time with a racist, I'd go with the shithead. Still calling someone a shitfhead is up there with fucktard for how little you think of someone. There is just more moral rebuke behind 'racist'.

Bedrockbrendan

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« Reply #258 on: October 30, 2016, 01:15:26 PM »
Quote from: Crüesader;927904
So, just so we're clear- you have absolutely no proof I said anything racist, you chose to 'feel' that it was racist, based upon things you've heard other racists say.

Exactly what I fucking thought.

You are not on trial Crusader. I am just telling people what my gut reaction is to your posts. About half of the posters seem to disagree with me. I don't know you personally. I don't know how much of this is internet bravado. And it is largely about your tone and your delivery like I said. But to me, yes tit sounds like you going on about black people and maybe there is some hostility toward them there on your part.

Crüesader
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« Reply #259 on: October 30, 2016, 01:28:59 PM »
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;927909
You are not on trial Crusader. I am just telling people what my gut reaction is to your posts. About half of the posters seem to disagree with me. I don't know you personally. I don't know how much of this is internet bravado. And it is largely about your tone and your delivery like I said. But to me, yes tit sounds like you going on about black people and maybe there is some hostility toward them there on your part.

You said 'tit sounds'.  I just want you to know that.  

But sadly, you are incorrect.  "Gut feelings" are not real analysis.

Ratman_tf

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #260 on: October 30, 2016, 02:43:40 PM »
Gut feeling are what got black men hanged in the Antebellum south, and the Jim Crow time period, over rape accusations.
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Bedrockbrendan

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #261 on: October 30, 2016, 03:36:34 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;927927
Gut feeling are what got black men hanged in the Antebellum south, and the Jim Crow time period, over rape accusations.

I think it was something else actually. And for Christ's sake no one is being hanged here.

Nexus

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #262 on: October 30, 2016, 03:47:30 PM »
Who exactly is being "dogpiled" here?

Seriously, if Bedrockbrennan wanted to "silence" Crusader he could with a few keystrokes. He's a moderator. We found the things he was distasteful because the hinted a racism. That's hatdly comparable to raising a lynch mob. Hell, so far the mob has been people rallying to his defense and demonstrating their Outrage.
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Crüesader
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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #263 on: October 30, 2016, 03:49:00 PM »
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;927936
I think it was something else actually. And for Christ's sake no one is being hanged here.


Well, of course not despite the consistent use of the word 'lynch'.  

And his point has merit.  You've been saying that you 'believe' I'm hostile toward an entire race of people, and you've yet to provide any evidence that's led you to believe that, other than "I feel it".  I don't know if you've realized it yet, but the overwhelming majority of the world doesn't care what you 'feel' and it is not a basis for forming a theory.  "Feels" are how feminists lolcows justify their demands for special treatment, not how men make a point.

You say I sound like racists you've encountered in the past?  I'm sorry, I don't spend much of my personal time entertaining racists so I'm not sure how they speak.  Last I heard a racist speaking, it was pretty insubstantial and silly.  Much like your 'feeling'.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 03:51:02 PM by Crüesader »

Efie

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #264 on: October 30, 2016, 04:09:31 PM »
This culture war has affected you all whether you know it or not.  There is a problem with black lives matter as a movement.  Part of it is a problem with the focus.  It is a race based movement instead of a equality based movement.  As such it dissuades those of us who aren't black from joining.  Instead we are encouraged to be "allies" much like how modern feminism says that men aren't feminists buut rather "allies".   When an ideology says that you have to be a particular shade or have specific body parts in order to join, they deserve to get close scrutiny because even if the sentiment is to be commended, I cannot in all good faith support a movement that would not support me in return, as a nonblack non female, Native male.

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #265 on: October 30, 2016, 04:45:03 PM »
Ok. signing off until wednesday when our internet is turned on at the new apartment.
I may check the forum from work, but y'know, I should be working there and not doing personal internet stuff. :)
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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #266 on: October 30, 2016, 05:03:17 PM »
Hilarious.

A thread full of wankers who post next to nothing about games and gaming going to the mats over who is the most virtuous in a thread where the only thing missing is the word coon.

How's this for silencing? Closed so that you colossal fuck-ups can pretend you still play rpgs.

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #267 on: October 31, 2016, 08:18:55 PM »
I'm fine with this thread closing, it's gone completely off the rails anyways.

For the record, there's definitely people on the right who are blatant racists. On the left too, though they manifest it differently.

Anyone who suggests that any "deficiency" in (U.S.) "black culture" is a product of race is an imbecile. The 'deficiencies' that exist are a product of history, and mainly a product of partly ill-intentioned and partly (stupidly) well-intentioned government policies that eroded the stability of that culture, discouraged things like industriousness and self-reliance, and promoted institutional poverty and crime.  None of those things have anything to do with skin color; you see much of the same happening in lower-class white culture in America too.
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