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Author Topic: "It's only censorship if the government does it"  (Read 11681 times)

Spinachcat

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2016, 03:03:38 AM »
It all depends who has more juice with the principal - the coach or the player's parents. Your BiL could run into the issue of the star player deciding to protest, or the screeching parent who pesters the school board, or he gets reminded that Little Johnny's dad is a major donor. `

Crüesader
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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2016, 03:20:30 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;925439
It all depends who has more juice with the principal - the coach or the player's parents. Your BiL could run into the issue of the star player deciding to protest, or the screeching parent who pesters the school board, or he gets reminded that Little Johnny's dad is a major donor. `

Be a shame if all that problem-starting happened while College Scouts were in the area.

Alzrius

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2016, 08:32:38 AM »
Whenever I hear that crap about "only the government can censor," I point out that the ACLU recognizes that private pressure groups can restrict speech:

Quote from: The American Civil Liberties Union
In contrast, when private individuals or groups organize boycotts against stores that sell magazines of which they disapprove, their actions are protected by the First Amendment, although they can become dangerous in the extreme. Private pressure groups, not the government, promulgated and enforced the infamous Hollywood blacklists during the McCarthy period. But these private censorship campaigns are best countered by groups and individuals speaking out and organizing in defense of the threatened expression.
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Bedrockbrendan

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2016, 09:24:58 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;925398


Out of curiousity, for those who approve of this - does it matter what the flag or song is? For example, a Russian company is certainly allowed to open a U.S. office and hire employees - but what would you think if they required employees to stand for the Russian national anthem? Or if some company owned by radicals required employees to participate in a flag-burning event?


I don't think private companies should be able to force any kind of ideology on you (whether it is good, bad, etc). One of my big issues with how a lot of the internet outrage operates today is it seems aimed at taking away peoples' livelihoods for holding the wrong ideas or saying the wrong things. We are giving companies incredible power over peoples' lives in an age where a well paying job is everything. Whether they are asking you to stand for a flag, sing an anthem, firing you for expressing your opinion on your own private time, I don't think companies should be able to exercise that kind of power over their employees personal time or personal beliefs (expect perhaps in cases where that is highly relevant to the field).

Bedrockbrendan

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2016, 09:26:54 AM »
Quote from: yosemitemike;925419
I think they would have a difficult time retaining employees.

If getting a well paying job was always a certainty, I'd agree. But I know too many people who stay in jobs they hate, work for bosses they can't stand, and work in occupations that require them to do things they don't agree with, because people need to eat and pay the rent and good paying jobs are hard to come by.

ArrozConLeche

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2016, 09:58:03 AM »
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;925475
I don't think private companies should be able to force any kind of ideology on you (whether it is good, bad, etc). One of my big issues with how a lot of the internet outrage operates today is it seems aimed at taking away peoples' livelihoods for holding the wrong ideas or saying the wrong things. We are giving companies incredible power over peoples' lives in an age where a well paying job is everything. Whether they are asking you to stand for a flag, sing an anthem, firing you for expressing your opinion on your own private time, I don't think companies should be able to exercise that kind of power over their employees personal time or personal beliefs (expect perhaps in cases where that is highly relevant to the field).

This is exactly it.

Ratman_tf

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2016, 11:39:04 AM »
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;925475
I don't think private companies should be able to force any kind of ideology on you (whether it is good, bad, etc). One of my big issues with how a lot of the internet outrage operates today is it seems aimed at taking away peoples' livelihoods for holding the wrong ideas or saying the wrong things. We are giving companies incredible power over peoples' lives in an age where a well paying job is everything. Whether they are asking you to stand for a flag, sing an anthem, firing you for expressing your opinion on your own private time, I don't think companies should be able to exercise that kind of power over their employees personal time or personal beliefs (expect perhaps in cases where that is highly relevant to the field).


At the risk of "me too-ing", I'm going to completely agree with that.
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Warboss Squee

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2016, 12:43:47 PM »
Why is it that the group that denies censorship unless it's at the hands of the government, will gleefully dox you, get you banned from twitter/facebook/youtube and even go so far as to have mass call ins to your place of employment to get you fired for having the audacity of a opinion they find 'problematic'?

Krimson

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2016, 01:30:53 PM »
Quote from: Alzrius;925468
Whenever I hear that crap about "only the government can censor," I point out that the ACLU recognizes that private pressure groups can restrict speech:


Has anyone here then reported OBS to the ACLU, or filed any formal complaint or taken any sort of action whatsoever? Or is this just griping about how you don't like how someone else runs their business?
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Krimson

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2016, 01:32:55 PM »
Quote from: Warboss Squee;925509
...will gleefully dox you

You're talking about Lou Dobbs, right?
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yosemitemike

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2016, 04:41:03 PM »
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;925476
If getting a well paying job was always a certainty, I'd agree. But I know too many people who stay in jobs they hate, work for bosses they can't stand, and work in occupations that require them to do things they don't agree with, because people need to eat and pay the rent and good paying jobs are hard to come by.


Almost everyone has to put up with things they don't particularly like at their jobs.  That's why they have to pay people to do it.  It's a matter of degrees.  There are also some tedious things like making people wear uncomfortable shoes that are considered normal and some things like making people salute the Russian flag that are not.  Just because people will put up with some things does not mean they will put up with anything.  

Also, that assumes that such an employer would offer well paying jobs or even be in business for long with policies that are guaranteed to generate a ton of negative PR.  Employees aren't the only ones who will have a negative reaction.  The cost of turnover will just hasten the company's demise.  Replacing a mid-level employee making 30-50k a year costs 20% of their yearly salary give or take.  That's not cheap if you have to do it a lot.  Driving off employees doesn't just cost the employees.  It costs the company too.
“I am certain, however, that nothing has done so much to destroy the juridical safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice.”― Friedrich Hayek
Another former RPGnet member permanently banned for calling out the staff there on their abdication of their responsibilities as moderators and admins and their abject surrender to the whims of the shrillest and most self-righteous members of the community.

jhkim

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2016, 05:35:27 PM »
Quote from: yosemitemike;925569
Almost everyone has to put up with things they don't particularly like at their jobs.  That's why they have to pay people to do it.  It's a matter of degrees.  There are also some tedious things like making people wear uncomfortable shoes that are considered normal and some things like making people salute the Russian flag that are not.  Just because people will put up with some things does not mean they will put up with anything.

Obviously, people have different tolerances for different things. However, just because something is more normal doesn't mean that it is right. For ages, segregation was normal.

Yes, my hypothetical examples were pretty unrealistic. Let me try a more realistic example:  Someone works at a hospice funded by Christian charities, and meetings all end with a prayer where everyone is expected to bow their heads respectfully even though they aren't required to pray. If that one seems believable, then picture in another place where a hospice is funded by Islamic charities, and at the appointed times each day, everyone does their daily prayers, and those who don't believe are still expected to bow their heads respectfully towards Mecca.

Regarding the Russian flag, I could potentially picture it if it were a small Russian-language school that caters to the kids of Russian embassy workers. They hire local teachers, though, and an American teacher complains that she is required to swear to the Russian flag the same way that the Russian kids are. Should the school (which is technically a private American company) have the right to make her do this or be fired?


Personally, I generally agree with Brendan that all of these are going too far.

Crüesader
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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2016, 06:46:55 PM »
I kinda like the point most people reached, because this is what I'm thinking now- all this 'FIRE HIM!' from SJW's isn't going to be so pleasant once it's weaponized against them.  I won't lie, if I ran my own business?  Someone who calls non-feminists 'Fuckboys' or black conservatives 'house-niggers' or calls peoples' personal achievements 'privilege' would be out the door in a heartbeat.  If more business owners did this, the SJW's might be put on their heels.  

Then again, the difference between an SJW and a sofa is that a sofa can support a family.  I've never seen one with a real job that looked as if it could buy any more than ramen and wonderbread.

Ratman_tf

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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2016, 07:02:08 PM »
Relevant:

https://youtu.be/fvPgjg201w0

Somewhere along the line, things went from discussion about pronouns, to HATE CRIME if you don't use someone's preferred pronouns.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Crüesader
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"It's only censorship if the government does it"
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2016, 08:10:15 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;925611
Relevant:

https://youtu.be/fvPgjg201w0

Somewhere along the line, things went from discussion about pronouns, to HATE CRIME if you don't use someone's preferred pronouns.

I like the one kid whose preferred pronoun was 'His Majesty'.