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Author Topic: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?  (Read 19063 times)

Shasarak

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #195 on: September 18, 2020, 05:47:16 PM »
Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?
You have lost me again.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #196 on: September 18, 2020, 07:19:18 PM »
Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?


Have you ever watched The Producers? Do you recognize that the history the film is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the movie while knowing it's horrific roots?


I'm not quite sure kids even play cowboys and indians anymore. My nephew was more obsessed with fighting zombies. Which is still fucked up because zombies are pretty horrific if they actually existed.


So yeah, I can easily stomach a game like cowboys and indians. And even if I found it horrific, which I don't, it's not like it's a current phenomenon.
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VisionStorm

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #197 on: September 18, 2020, 07:50:06 PM »
And you lost me again.

Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?

Yes.

Because I’m not an overly sensitive Tumblrina and Cowboys & Indians is just a variant of Cops & Robbers where no actual indians get killed or their lands get stolen. It’s just Blue Team/Red Team. It’s about two teams competing against each other while also learning to cooperate with members of their own team to achieve a common goal. The “Cowboys & Indians” part is just a theme. It has fuck to do with the actual history of Native Americans. It might as well be The Federation & The Klingon Empire with a bunch of kids dressed up like Trekkies using toy phasers instead of cowboys with toy guns.

We can apply similar logic to D&D.

You really can’t, but I know you’ll try.

It's an American game whose world building took cues from the colonization of the American West. There were tons of racist tracts saying that indigenous peoples were inferior and should be exterminated.

Which racist tracts, where? When the fuck in the entire history of D&D have indigenous people even been mentioned, much less called inferior and players told that they should be exterminated? When has this ever happened and WTF does this have to do with orcs, who are not exactly “indigenous peoples”?

Saying that the way humanoids are depicted resembles racist tracts should be a value-neutral statement, if it is indeed accurate and that will vary by setting, not an indictment of players and designers.

Except that it isn’t accurate and you have failed to provide a single example to back up your wild claims. Again.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #198 on: September 18, 2020, 08:43:24 PM »
I grew up sometimes playing Cowboys and Indians.  There was always a fuss over who got to be the Indians.  Most of us wanted to, because we had at least rumors of some Cherokee in our ancestry.
Bottom line, yeah, Blue Team/Red Team--with both of them inspiring a great deal of respect.
No kids play Normal People vs SJW, and none ever will.  Wonder why that is...



BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #199 on: September 19, 2020, 10:01:06 AM »
And you lost me again.

Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?

Yes.

Because I’m not an overly sensitive Tumblrina and Cowboys & Indians is just a variant of Cops & Robbers where no actual indians get killed or their lands get stolen. It’s just Blue Team/Red Team. It’s about two teams competing against each other while also learning to cooperate with members of their own team to achieve a common goal. The “Cowboys & Indians” part is just a theme. It has fuck to do with the actual history of Native Americans. It might as well be The Federation & The Klingon Empire with a bunch of kids dressed up like Trekkies using toy phasers instead of cowboys with toy guns.

We can apply similar logic to D&D.

You really can’t, but I know you’ll try.

It's an American game whose world building took cues from the colonization of the American West. There were tons of racist tracts saying that indigenous peoples were inferior and should be exterminated.

Which racist tracts, where? When the fuck in the entire history of D&D have indigenous people even been mentioned, much less called inferior and players told that they should be exterminated? When has this ever happened and WTF does this have to do with orcs, who are not exactly “indigenous peoples”?

Saying that the way humanoids are depicted resembles racist tracts should be a value-neutral statement, if it is indeed accurate and that will vary by setting, not an indictment of players and designers.

Except that it isn’t accurate and you have failed to provide a single example to back up your wild claims. Again.


I’m not afraid to play Cowboys & Indians either. Although my versions is probably a lot more risqué and weird than the standard rules.

I never said D&D promoted racism against real people. That’s false. Real people in real life promoted racism and genocide and wrote tracts about it.


Such as John Chivington. Chivington, a real person, was an advocate for the genocide of native Americans. He called them lice. He advocated killing the children, calling them nits.



Gary Gygax discussed Chivington in a 2005 Q&A while discussing what it meant to be lawful good. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197361&sid=cf11ac19845312ea9b8bd919e3b1ae64#p197361


If you think the fluff text describing humanoids isn’t reminiscent of anything agenda-driven, then great for you. I’m not going to keep arguing because I doubt any example I give will be accepted anyway. I don’t care enough about this to look for more examples anyway.

Have a nice day. The only good orc is a dead orc. Insert other platitudes here.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 10:02:56 AM by BoxCrayonTales »

Ratman_tf

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #200 on: September 19, 2020, 10:09:48 AM »
Gary Gygax discussed Chivington in a 2005 Q&A while discussing what it meant to be lawful good. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197361&sid=cf11ac19845312ea9b8bd919e3b1ae64#p197361


Holy shit! I knew Gary was a misogynist from the harlot table in the DMG, but he's also denying Rape Culture! Everyone knows rape was A-OK all through history. What a patriarchal asshole!
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David Johansen

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #201 on: September 19, 2020, 12:04:51 PM »
Funny thing is that my Mom wouldn't let us play Cops and Robbers or War or Guns but Cowboys and Indians was A Okay.  Talk about your mixed messages.
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VisionStorm

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #202 on: September 19, 2020, 01:48:51 PM »
I never said D&D promoted racism against real people. That’s false. Real people in real life promoted racism and genocide and wrote tracts about it.

I never said anything about real people. I mentioned indigenous people (which may as well be fantasy creatures that happen to be indigenous to a certain area, depending on the setting), in reference to your own post, where you claimed D&D promoted their extermination. Except that orcs are usually portrayed as invaders, not as indigenous peoples defending their lands. If anything it's the human(or other) settlers who are presumably the ones indigenous to whatever area orcs choose to occupy.

Such as John Chivington. Chivington, a real person, was an advocate for the genocide of native Americans. He called them lice. He advocated killing the children, calling them nits.



Gary Gygax discussed Chivington in a 2005 Q&A while discussing what it meant to be lawful good. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197361&sid=cf11ac19845312ea9b8bd919e3b1ae64#p197361

Gygax didn't exactly "discuss" Chivington, as much as reply to someone else who mentioned him and claimed that an expression that Gygax used about "Nits make lice" was coined by Chivington. To which Gygax replied that even if Chivington used that expression, that the expression actually predated him. So that post doesn't say what you claim it does. It's just an out of context forum post from decades ago.

If you think the fluff text describing humanoids isn’t reminiscent of anything agenda-driven, then great for you. I’m not going to keep arguing because I doubt any example I give will be accepted anyway. I don’t care enough about this to look for more examples anyway.

The only "example" you've ever given in this topic was the out of context Gary Gygax quote you posted above, from some gaming forum decades ago that didn't even say what you say it said.

Pat
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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #203 on: September 19, 2020, 02:15:19 PM »
Except that orcs are usually portrayed as invaders, not as indigenous peoples defending their lands. If anything it's the human(or other) settlers who are presumably the ones indigenous to whatever area orcs choose to occupy.
I don't see that.

The Keep on the Borderlands is explicitly a small fortified town in an area dominated by humanoid settlements (including orcs). The implication is the humanoids are the natives, while the humans are trying to tame the area for civilization. Which makes humans the invaders.

In the Forgotten Realms, the North is explicitly called the "savage frontier". Vast areas are dominated by humanoids, while the occasional human settlements are points of light in the dark. While the time scales are wonky (aren't they always, in fantasy worlds?), it's also clear the humans are relatively new. Sure, the humanoids form into hordes and periodically descent upon civilization, but even the hordes tend to attack the incursive human settlements like Silverymoon or Waterdeep, rather than more established humans areas like Tethyr. So again, humans are the invaders.

It also fits the general Western ethos of D&D in general.

VisionStorm

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #204 on: September 19, 2020, 02:59:31 PM »
Except that orcs are usually portrayed as invaders, not as indigenous peoples defending their lands. If anything it's the human(or other) settlers who are presumably the ones indigenous to whatever area orcs choose to occupy.
I don't see that.

The Keep on the Borderlands is explicitly a small fortified town in an area dominated by humanoid settlements (including orcs). The implication is the humanoids are the natives, while the humans are trying to tame the area for civilization. Which makes humans the invaders.

In the Forgotten Realms, the North is explicitly called the "savage frontier". Vast areas are dominated by humanoids, while the occasional human settlements are points of light in the dark. While the time scales are wonky (aren't they always, in fantasy worlds?), it's also clear the humans are relatively new. Sure, the humanoids form into hordes and periodically descent upon civilization, but even the hordes tend to attack the incursive human settlements like Silverymoon or Waterdeep, rather than more established humans areas like Tethyr. So again, humans are the invaders.

It also fits the general Western ethos of D&D in general.


I'm not really familiar with Keep on the Borderlands (I don't generally play modules), though, I suppose that's a plausible scenario, given that humanoids must dominate some territories if they exist in the world. But that's hardly the only type of scenario there is and it's also not always a clear cut case of certain territories being exclusively humanoid or human and whatever species is attacking at any given time being a non-indigenous invader.

In the case of Forgotten Realms for example, the "savage frontier" is actually full of human barbarian tribes IIRC, such as the one where Wulfgar (one of Drizzt's friends from the Icewind Dale trilogy) comes from, as well as dwarven settlements. It isn't just orcs and other humanoids that live there, and they hardly occupy the entire area. Many areas are just unsettled contested territories with few arable land, where humanoids may sometimes descend upon from farther away mountains where they actually live.

Also, my impression of humans being relative new in most fantasy settings is usually in relation to elves and dwarves, which are usually portrayed as being the older races that already occupied the lands before humans became numerous and prosperous and started expanding into their territories. Which is usually part of the reason given for elves being so aggressively protective of their forests, and would also be an example of an "indigenous" race that's not portrayed as vermin, but if anything as being superior to humans, but less numerous.

Waterdeep itself is build on the site of an ancient elven settlement according to the FR wiki (though, it doesn't go into specifics on what happen to that settlement, if it fell to invasion or what), and started out as a trading post between (presumable human) northern tribesmen and southern merchants. It's hardly the site of human conquest of humanoid lands.

Spinachcat

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #205 on: September 19, 2020, 04:41:55 PM »
Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?
Hell yeah! Great game with lots of fun memories of my little sister running around trying to scalp my friends wearing our mother's lipstick as warpaint. 20 years later she married an idiot who's half-Plains Indian. She should've scalped him instead.

And yes, the history is very fucked up...cuz that's how history OF EVERY COUNTRY is. The Natives did a whole lot of raping and murdering of Europeans and then got the brutally harsh lesson of what happens when your foe has technological superiority.

It's the exact lesson why I agree with those scientists who think Earth needs to STFU and stop sending random signals out to the galaxy with no idea who is listening because we're not even the Indians in that game.

Also, Orcs are NOT Native Americans. Orcs are black people. Everybody knows that!


Ratman_tf

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #206 on: September 19, 2020, 08:33:42 PM »
The Keep on the Borderlands is explicitly a small fortified town in an area dominated by humanoid settlements (including orcs). The implication is the humanoids are the natives, while the humans are trying to tame the area for civilization. Which makes humans the invaders.


The background section emphasises that the "enemies" are the servants of Chaos, not simply inhabitants.
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HappyDaze

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #207 on: September 20, 2020, 10:10:08 AM »
The Keep on the Borderlands is explicitly a small fortified town in an area dominated by humanoid settlements (including orcs). The implication is the humanoids are the natives, while the humans are trying to tame the area for civilization. Which makes humans the invaders.


The background section emphasises that the "enemies" are the servants of Chaos, not simply inhabitants.
One might say that's exactly how to group the enemies together as the Other instead of seeing them as people.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #208 on: September 20, 2020, 06:43:47 PM »
The Keep on the Borderlands is explicitly a small fortified town in an area dominated by humanoid settlements (including orcs). The implication is the humanoids are the natives, while the humans are trying to tame the area for civilization. Which makes humans the invaders.


The background section emphasises that the "enemies" are the servants of Chaos, not simply inhabitants.
One might say that's exactly how to group the enemies together as the Other instead of seeing them as people.


Well, at least your reply can be used as an example of how to be wrong.


The inhabitants are objectively servants of Chaos. They live in the Cave of Chaos, where priests of Chaos have a Chapel of Evil Chaos and a Temple of Evil Chaos where people are sacrificed to their dark gods, and can find a demonic skull that can possess them.


So no, this isn't othering, this is an objective description of the Caves of Chaos.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Pat
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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #209 on: September 21, 2020, 12:17:42 AM »
In the case of Forgotten Realms for example, the "savage frontier" is actually full of human barbarian tribes IIRC, such as the one where Wulfgar (one of Drizzt's friends from the Icewind Dale trilogy) comes from, as well as dwarven settlements. It isn't just orcs and other humanoids that live there, and they hardly occupy the entire area. Many areas are just unsettled contested territories with few arable land, where humanoids may sometimes descend upon from farther away mountains where they actually live.

Also, my impression of humans being relative new in most fantasy settings is usually in relation to elves and dwarves, which are usually portrayed as being the older races that already occupied the lands before humans became numerous and prosperous and started expanding into their territories. Which is usually part of the reason given for elves being so aggressively protective of their forests, and would also be an example of an "indigenous" race that's not portrayed as vermin, but if anything as being superior to humans, but less numerous.

Waterdeep itself is build on the site of an ancient elven settlement according to the FR wiki (though, it doesn't go into specifics on what happen to that settlement, if it fell to invasion or what), and started out as a trading post between (presumable human) northern tribesmen and southern merchants. It's hardly the site of human conquest of humanoid lands.
Compared to the vast expanses of the North, Icewind Dale is barely a speck, and one that's cut off from the rest of the lands, so it's not very representative. Though the North was definitely filled with barbarians in canon, but that's a later addition. The Uthgardt really didn't get any attention until FR5 The Savage Frontier, written by the inestimable (Paul/Jennell) Jaquays. Greenwood's earlier writings implied a wild frontier, a few scattered settlements, and a struggle against the encroaching hordes.

And so do some later writings. But not others. The FR is definitely inconsistent. I mentioned the time frame, and you alluded to it as well: The North has been a frontier for what, a thousand or so years? You'd think they'd have settled more than a isolated few cities. The ancient empires you mentioned are layers upon layers, from the Creator Races to Netheril to all the fallen elven or dwarven empires. But that's just how D&D works; over time, any sufficiently expansive setting will explore every possible theme and historical trope, and coherence be damned.

But exploring a frontier is one of the strongest, most enduring themes. It's in the modules, in Karameikos and Norwald in the Known Lands, in the Forgotten Realms. It's even in the hex types, which can be civilized, wilderness, or borderlands. It's often said that the Western is one of the game's major influences.