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Author Topic: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?  (Read 19083 times)

Zirunel

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #135 on: September 10, 2020, 03:24:50 PM »
45 years ago, before it occurred to anyone that there might be anything problematic or colonialist about rpgs, Barker came up with a very new take for Tekumel. There are no orcs or goblinoids of course, but  the closest equivalents are the Hluss and the Ssu, the latter dubbed "The Enemies of Man." They are not " evil" in any real sense, just utterly alien and utterly inimical to humans. There is no negotiation or "getting along" (in fact, no communication of any sort). They must eliminate humans from the planet or humans must eliminate them.


So far so good, "inimical" is a useful approach for conflict between rpg enemies without introducing moral concepts like good or evil.


But what is really interesting is that even back then, Barker somehow anticipated this whole colonialism thing and confronted it head-on. The Hluss and the Ssu really ARE the indigenous inhabitants of Tekumel, the rightful owners of the planet. And then humans arrived, colonized the place, terraformed it beyond recognition, and confined them to reservations. Until the cataclysm, when the indigenes burst out of their enclaves. Now they want their planet back.


There's no hand-wringing about whether humans might actually be ruthless colonists, they very explicitly are (or were once)! But since the cataclysm, humans have nowhere else to go, so humans, Hluss and Ssu are stuck to battle it out with each other now. The moral questions are acknowledged, but have kinda been overtaken by events.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 03:50:00 PM by Zirunel »

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #136 on: September 10, 2020, 03:57:17 PM »
I can't help it if the woke crowd is made up of paste eating retards. There's only so much I can do.


My point is that orcs are lazy unnecessary stand-ins for human beings in general. Rather than introducing a real human group like Mongols, Huns, or Germanic barbarians and getting mired in moral quandaries like "should we murder the women and children too?", RPGs use orcs as (supposedly) guilt-free targets. Because, you know, it's an entertainment game and not an anthropological dissertation.

Maybe I watched too much Beastmaster on TV in the early 2000s, but I kinda wish we had more pacifist heroes who don't need to leave mountains of bodies in their wake.


45 years ago, before it occurred to anyone that there might be anything problematic or colonialist about rpgs, Barker came up with a very new take for Tekumel. There are no orcs or goblinoids of course, but  the closest equivalents are the Hluss and the Ssu, the latter dubbed "The Enemies of Man." They are not " evil" in any real sense, just utterly alien and utterly inimical to humans. There is no negotiation or "getting along" (in fact, no communication of any sort). They must eliminate humans from the planet or humans must eliminate them.


So far so good, "inimical" is a useful approach for conflict between rpg enemies without introducing moral concepts like good or evil.


But what is really interesting is that even back then, Barker somehow anticipated this whole colonialism thing and confronted it head-on. The Hluss and the Ssu really ARE the indigenous inhabitants of Tekumel, the rightful owners of the planet. And then humans arrived, colonized the place, terraformed it beyond recognition, and confined them to reservations. Until the cataclysm, when the indigenes burst out of their enclaves. Now they want their planet back.


There's no hand-wringing about whether humans might actually be ruthless colonists, they very explicitly are (or were once)! But since the cataclysm, humans have nowhere else to go, so humans, Hluss and Ssu are stuck to battle it out with each other now. The moral questions are acknowledged, but have kinda been overtaken by events.
That's fairly clever, all things considered.

Zirunel

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #137 on: September 10, 2020, 05:29:18 PM »
That's fairly clever, all things considered.


I know, right? I mean, in the context of fantasy/sf literature of the day it's not that novel, but in an rpg , 45 years ago, as a rationale for "why are monsters evil/ hate us, and why do we hate them," it's fairly unique.


I'd say it was innovative, but since Tekumel was the first published rpg setting ever, "innovative" seems like a weak descriptor. Everything about it was innovative.


even so, It's still amazing how much it anticipated things that have become controversial all these decades later.

Shasarak

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #138 on: September 10, 2020, 10:43:54 PM »
Here’s an idea to try on for size:


Orcs are white people. Orcs steal, pillage, enslave, rape, etc just like white people do. At least according to the racist stereotypes circulating among the woke.


That’s why For example some modern depictions of orcs feature features like red hair and blue tattoos, just like stereotypes of ancient Celts.


If you’re using orcs for target practice, then you’re an anti-white racist.
That reminds me of the joke about how Ancient Celts hated the other Ancient Celts more then any other type of Orc, I mean race.
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tenbones

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #139 on: September 11, 2020, 10:39:16 AM »
So you're saying... SJW's project their own internal self-loathing into their gaming? Whuuut?


But then how do they enjoy movies? comics? sex? life?... oh shit. Is that what this is all about?


/sarcasm for the uptake challenged.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #140 on: September 11, 2020, 11:16:12 AM »
So you're saying... SJW's project their own internal self-loathing into their gaming? Whuuut?


But then how do they enjoy movies? comics? sex? life?... oh shit. Is that what this is all about?


/sarcasm for the uptake challenged.
While it may be heavily obfuscated, most Woke arguments are descended from valid academic analysis.

Interpreting orcs as representations of white colonizers is entirely valid. If they can be compared to Mongol and Hun colonizers, then they can be compared any colonizers across human history.

All of the evil humanoid races are supposed to be the Other. They exhibit only all of the bad behaviors we see in humans. They exist only as obstacles for the heroes to overcome.

This basic fact doesn't change depending on the ethnicity of the players. The only thing that changes is what the Other corresponds to in real life based on the player's cultural context.

For Anglo-Americans, that Other is a mishmash of all of the groups that have been historically oppressed in the United States. The Native Americans, the African slaves, the Irish immigrants... For Israelis, the Other is Palestinians and other Arabs. For the Woke, the Other is white.

It's all well and good when you use humanoids as simply a generic threat for the heroes to overcome. When American writers gave them societies that were repurposed pro-colonialist screed in order to clumsily justify using them as target practice, things got creepy and gross real fast.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #141 on: September 11, 2020, 12:15:30 PM »
So you're saying... SJW's project their own internal self-loathing into their gaming? Whuuut?


But then how do they enjoy movies? comics? sex? life?... oh shit. Is that what this is all about?


/sarcasm for the uptake challenged.
While it may be heavily obfuscated, most Woke arguments are descended from valid academic analysis.

Interpreting orcs as representations of white colonizers is entirely valid. If they can be compared to Mongol and Hun colonizers, then they can be compared any colonizers across human history.

All of the evil humanoid races are supposed to be the Other. They exhibit only all of the bad behaviors we see in humans. They exist only as obstacles for the heroes to overcome.

This basic fact doesn't change depending on the ethnicity of the players. The only thing that changes is what the Other corresponds to in real life based on the player's cultural context.

For Anglo-Americans, that Other is a mishmash of all of the groups that have been historically oppressed in the United States. The Native Americans, the African slaves, the Irish immigrants... For Israelis, the Other is Palestinians and other Arabs. For the Woke, the Other is white.

It's all well and good when you use humanoids as simply a generic threat for the heroes to overcome. When American writers gave them societies that were repurposed pro-colonialist screed in order to clumsily justify using them as target practice, things got creepy and gross real fast.


I think it's more like social justice free association. Like saying Watto is a jewish caricature because he has a big nose and likes money. Says quite a bit more about the claimant than the claim, IMO.
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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #142 on: September 11, 2020, 03:11:15 PM »
I think it's more like social justice free association. Like saying Watto is a jewish caricature because he has a big nose and likes money. Says quite a bit more about the claimant than the claim, IMO.

Okay, then how many points of similarity should a fictional species have with a racist caricature/stereotype before you'll lend credence to the critique? Three? Five? Twenty? (Also, Watto was apparently supposed to be an Italian stereotype, not Jewish.)

You're argument boils down to: "You noticed that a fictional character bears a fair resemblance to racist caricatures? Then you're the real racist!" I think that goes too far in the other direction. Our fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum. If a fictional character closely resembles a racist caricature, then it likely that they were inspired by that caricature even if the creator didn't understand what they were doing. Somebody who is actually racist is going to have a lot more red flags in their work, whereas somebody who is merely imitating things without understanding their context will probably have flags that contradict a purely racist interpretation and it is pretty easy for somebody in the later position to simply be unaware that they are giving mixed signals. While it is possible to read caricature where none exists, it is equally possible to ignore caricature that does exist.

The aliens and predator are pretty obviously neither deliberately nor subconsciously inspired by racial caricature. The aliens are literally taken from the artist's nightmares and are far too Freudian, biomechanical, and eerily beautiful to be limited to a purely racialized discourse. The predator seems actively designed to subvert racist expectations, as he dons supposedly "tribal" aesthetic while utilizing highly advanced technology and is ironically defeated by low-tech solutions. It stretches disbelief beyond the breaking point to argue that they are intentionally or subconsciously intended to evoke blackness. Are we talking "blackness" in the sense of Ancient Egypt's Nile-fertilized soil? "Blackness" in the sense of chthonic deities and primeval goddesses of night?

The terraformars are pretty obviously a racist caricature and the plot of the comic is clearly some kind of ultra-conservative quasi-fascist tract (and possibly deliberate trolling). It's trivially easy to make a list of their similarities to racist caricature and argue that they're an intentional racist caricature designed to offend people (e.g. unrealistically human-like visage, afro-textured hair, swarthy skin, hold pistols sideways, wear bling, chase after our women, stereotyped as strong and muscular, build pyramids, constantly derided as unintelligent savages despite evidence to the contrary, live on land that Earth wants to colonize). This should be blatantly obvious to most people, but the fans are bending over backwards to argue that it totally isn't blackface when it clearly is.

That's the real problem with political extremes like Wokeness. Their rhetoric descends from sane schools of thought, but the problem is that the woke cry wolf so often that when there really is a wolf then nobody notices as they're being eaten.

With orcs and goblins and drow and whatever, you can't easily argue that they evoke racist caricatures because so many authors use them and in so many wildly different ways. Some depictions are ugly as sin, while others look like supermodels. But that doesn't mean people can't make mistakes and unintentionally evoke racial caricature (including of, well, white folks), particularly when you imitate something written in less enlightened times. I mean, the original pulp fiction genre alone was full of some really nasty attitudes towards women, black folks, and so forth.

tenbones

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #143 on: September 11, 2020, 05:31:23 PM »
I think it's more like social justice free association. Like saying Watto is a jewish caricature because he has a big nose and likes money. Says quite a bit more about the claimant than the claim, IMO.

Okay, then how many points of similarity should a fictional species have with a racist caricature/stereotype before you'll lend credence to the critique? Three? Five? Twenty? (Also, Watto was apparently supposed to be an Italian stereotype, not Jewish.)


It is perfectly fine to ask the question. But what academia today does is grant a moral answer to their own question. Worse, the impetus of such a question tends to be a priori assumed as a perjorative.


When there is plenty of examples where it's not. See the "N-word" in hip-hop circles.


Where it becomes idiotic is when academics, here in the west, conveniently ascribe their perjorative assumptions ONLY to western ideals. While in Asian cultures, South American cultures - hell in basically ALL cultures, this phenomenon of colloquial use of names that identify people based on cultural stereotypes, both positively and negatively are common in use. Greeks call people 'skilo' "dog" ALL THE FUCKING TIME - it's colloquially used as their 'n-word' to blacks. It's also used affectionately to their friends. "Sup skilo." Same with calling people 'poutso' which is "cock". I've seen guy fight over it. I call people 'pouts' all the time colloquially (habit I picked up living among Greeks).


And I know it's true in my filipino family. It's true among blacks in my family. I know it's true among my hispanic friends.


Where it's verboten is leftist white people that want to decide that any word that can be taken free of intentional context as negative has to be taken in the WORST possible light. And it's only directed at white people and now whatever falls under the umbrella of "whiteness".


So it takes little effort to see how Leftist white-people look at orcs, Watto, or anything else and reflexively do this.


You're argument boils down to: "You noticed that a fictional character bears a fair resemblance to racist caricatures? Then you're the real racist!" I think that goes too far in the other direction. Our fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum. If a fictional character closely resembles a racist caricature, then it likely that they were inspired by that caricature even if the creator didn't understand what they were doing. Somebody who is actually racist is going to have a lot more red flags in their work, whereas somebody who is merely imitating things without understanding their context will probably have flags that contradict a purely racist interpretation and it is pretty easy for somebody in the later position to simply be unaware that they are giving mixed signals. While it is possible to read caricature where none exists, it is equally possible to ignore caricature that does exist.
No it goes down to ones inability to accept that cultural stereotypes are real for a reason. And they will remain so as long as the stereotype serves remains true in some elemental way to that culture until that culture changes. I literally see NO ONE these days making Polack jokes today, because Poland is kicking ass as culture. But when I was growing up in the 70's... they were still a thing.At no point does it implicitly mean someone is racist by engaging with a stereotype. Leftists have used this idiotic tactic by again, assuming the worst, in order to create the division necessary for their ulterior goals. By taking this tactic it serves only to divide people rather than allow them to accept another *despite* those stereotypes. That was the point of Archie Bunker in the 70's - which was an entire show based on stereotypes, not only black ones, but duh, white ones too.Only in Western European culture will you see the accepting of stereotypes in a national construct. *Because* we already fought those battles and spilled blood over it and hammered out the rules. At no point does one group get to demand that another sub-group accept another as full-equals within that group. But we sure as fuck can stand together under the banner of mutual rules of engagement that allow us to freely associate.Try that shit in China. Go there and tell them you're Chinese and watch what they say to you. You know like the freaks in America do when they go to Japan with their fucking waifu outfits and dyed hair. Polite Japanese society look at them as the fucking weirdos they are. And while welcoming and polite, they don't think these people are remotely Japanese.Which is the real issue - it's pretending a caricature is real and there being no capacity (apparently) at perceiving the difference).So who precisely made this connection that Orcs are black people? It certainly wasn't a non-leftist.
[size=78%]The aliens and predator are pretty obviously neither deliberately nor subconsciously inspired by racial caricature. The aliens are literally taken from the artist's nightmares and are far too Freudian, biomechanical, and eerily beautiful to be limited to a purely racialized discourse. The predator seems actively designed to subvert racist expectations, as he dons supposedly "tribal" aesthetic while utilizing highly advanced technology and is ironically defeated by low-tech solutions. It stretches disbelief beyond the breaking point to argue that they are intentionally or subconsciously intended to evoke blackness. Are we talking "blackness" in the sense of Ancient Egypt's Nile-fertilized soil? "Blackness" in the sense of chthonic deities and primeval goddesses of night?[/size]


This incessant need to *find* racism everywhere is the issue.


And yet we have people commenting that Darth Vader is representative of black oppression because he is clad in literal black, but then is killed. And then black people are further pissed on by "removing his blackness" and revealing him to be redeemed as an old white man.


More leftist drivel.

[size=78%]The terraformars are pretty obviously a racist caricature and the plot of the comic is clearly some kind of ultra-conservative quasi-fascist tract (and possibly deliberate trolling). It's trivially easy to make a list of their similarities to racist caricature and argue that they're an intentional racist caricature designed to offend people (e.g. unrealistically human-like visage, afro-textured hair, swarthy skin, hold pistols sideways, wear bling, chase after our women, stereotyped as strong and muscular, build pyramids, constantly derided as unintelligent savages despite evidence to the contrary, live on land that Earth wants to colonize). This should be blatantly obvious to most people, but the fans are bending over backwards to argue that it totally isn't blackface when it clearly is.

That's the real problem with political extremes like Wokeness. Their rhetoric descends from sane schools of thought, but the problem is that the woke cry wolf so often that when there really is a wolf then nobody notices as they're being eaten.

With orcs and goblins and drow and whatever, you can't easily argue that they evoke racist caricatures because so many authors use them and in so many wildly different ways. Some depictions are ugly as sin, while others look like supermodels. But that doesn't mean people can't make mistakes and unintentionally evoke racial caricature (including of, well, white folks), particularly when you imitate something written in less enlightened times. I mean, the original pulp fiction genre alone was full of some really nasty attitudes towards women, black folks, and so forth.
[/size]


And so maybe it isn't really racism? As much as it is a product designed to appeal to what the market will accept as entertainment and nothing more? Lefitist spend a lot of time concerned with what they pretend other people think. And then want to try to control and clear the land of everything *they* don't control in order to assuage their desire to control others to "protect" themselves.


It's an mad spiral inward by projecting their madness outward. This is how they are unable to discern truth. Pathological post-modernism free of actual critical thought. That is how we got here.


It's stupid.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 05:33:38 PM by tenbones »

Ratman_tf

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #144 on: September 11, 2020, 05:51:53 PM »
I think it's more like social justice free association. Like saying Watto is a jewish caricature because he has a big nose and likes money. Says quite a bit more about the claimant than the claim, IMO.

Okay, then how many points of similarity should a fictional species have with a racist caricature/stereotype before you'll lend credence to the critique? Three? Five? Twenty? (Also, Watto was apparently supposed to be an Italian stereotype, not Jewish.)




I don't put a number on it. I'd take the critique seriously if it had any insight past "Star Wars is racist!" (But only in the Critical Theory definition of racism) Now the Oscars have diversity quotas and people in Hollywood are talking much more about the social justice version of diversity (as defined by Critical Theory) instead of the damn quality of the films.

The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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tenbones

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #145 on: September 11, 2020, 10:12:34 PM »
But that's the whole point of "Critical Race Theory" - it's a nice big umbrella that has very little rigor attached to it (one might say it fails on its own name in that the use of "criticism" isn't really well formed). It sounds important. It pretends it is important. And it attracts the deracinated cultural morons of modern Western European culture to come join in this new novelty of non-thinking presenting itself as the opposite.

So now you have a nifty Brand Label(tm) to make people that have no real critical-thinking skills themselves, to march in line to without actually having to do any thinking for themselves. Queue the solipsistic nature of cult-psychology and watch the obvious outcome.


 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 10:14:25 PM by tenbones »

Ratman_tf

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #146 on: September 11, 2020, 10:48:23 PM »
But that's the whole point of "Critical Race Theory" - it's a nice big umbrella that has very little rigor attached to it (one might say it fails on its own name in that the use of "criticism" isn't really well formed). It sounds important. It pretends it is important. And it attracts the deracinated cultural morons of modern Western European culture to come join in this new novelty of non-thinking presenting itself as the opposite.

So now you have a nifty Brand Label(tm) to make people that have no real critical-thinking skills themselves, to march in line to without actually having to do any thinking for themselves. Queue the solipsistic nature of cult-psychology and watch the obvious outcome.


Your previous reply blew mine out of the water. I felt I should at least make an effort at a reply, but you were a tough act to follow.
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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #147 on: September 12, 2020, 08:49:29 AM »
And I think we have reached the point where you guys have been so desensitized that you are unwilling to see fucked up shit when it does appear because you think it’s ceding ground to the critical race theorists/race supremacists.


When useful idiots are saying that giant penis monsters are really a metaphor for black people, then it becomes much easier to dismiss far more substantial allegations.


If I didn’t know any better than I’d say this was an elaborate plot by race supremacists (or trolls) to bring caricatures back in style under the guise of fiction.


Ratman_tf

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #148 on: September 12, 2020, 03:32:57 PM »
And I think we have reached the point where you guys have been so desensitized that you are unwilling to see fucked up shit when it does appear because you think it’s ceding ground to the critical race theorists/race supremacists.


When useful idiots are saying that giant penis monsters are really a metaphor for black people, then it becomes much easier to dismiss far more substantial allegations.


If I didn’t know any better than I’d say this was an elaborate plot by race supremacists (or trolls) to bring caricatures back in style under the guise of fiction.


Well, that was petulant.


Like I said, I'm willing to concede that, say, orcs in Tolkien rely on "the other" tropes, like using scimitars and being "swarthy".
What I'm not going to concede is the critical theory nonsense that this is all systemic, and therefore we all have to be good social justice "allies" and confess our white cis het privilige sin of racism and white supremacy.
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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
« Reply #149 on: September 12, 2020, 04:09:24 PM »
And I think we have reached the point where you guys have been so desensitized that you are unwilling to see fucked up shit when it does appear because you think it’s ceding ground to the critical race theorists/race supremacists.


When useful idiots are saying that giant penis monsters are really a metaphor for black people, then it becomes much easier to dismiss far more substantial allegations.


If I didn’t know any better than I’d say this was an elaborate plot by race supremacists (or trolls) to bring caricatures back in style under the guise of fiction.


Well, that was petulant.


Like I said, I'm willing to concede that, say, orcs in Tolkien rely on "the other" tropes, like using scimitars and being "swarthy".
What I'm not going to concede is the critical theory nonsense that this is all systemic, and therefore we all have to be good social justice "allies" and confess our white cis het privilige sin of racism and white supremacy.


Petulant?


I am critical of critical theory. Critical theorists openly advocate for segregation. It’s like a secret plot by white supremacists or something.


On the other end, I’ve seen people arguing that blatant racial caricatures aren’t blatant racial caricatures. Which also seems like a secret plot by white supremacists.


I live in clown world.


I’m seriously wondering right now if I could get away with writing racist propaganda by replacing the characters with fantasy races. Like, if I wrote a story that’s actually about the KKK lynching black people a la Birth of a Nation, but changed it to humans heroically killing orcs. Would people actually defend that if they didn’t know it was written to troll the audience?