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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2020, 12:06:06 AM

Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2020, 12:06:06 AM
Just what the tin says, first it was Orcs = Black People, Goblins = Jews. etc

Now it's fucking Aliens, the bugs in the movie Aliens.

https://twitter.com/SophNar0747/status/1296244190351953920 (https://twitter.com/SophNar0747/status/1296244190351953920)
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Brad on August 21, 2020, 11:02:13 AM
Someone is just really bored. Force labor camps are starting to seem like a good idea...
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: RandyB on August 21, 2020, 11:14:33 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145765
Just what the tin says, first it was Orcs = Black People, Goblins = Jews. etc

Now it's fucking Aliens, the bugs in the movie Aliens.

https://twitter.com/SophNar0747/status/1296244190351953920 (https://twitter.com/SophNar0747/status/1296244190351953920)

(Normal) White people are the only true monsters in SJW eyes.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 12:38:02 PM
Quote from: Brad;1145825
Someone is just really bored. Force labor camps are starting to seem like a good idea...

B-rad counters racism by forcing labor... why not just say you're crying like a bitch because you want slaves, you shit?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 21, 2020, 02:41:58 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1145850
B-rad counters racism by forcing labor... why not just say you're crying like a bitch because you want slaves, you shit?

Man, you get really pissed when SJWs are shown to be racist assholes.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 04:17:42 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1145867
Man, you get really pissed when SJWs are shown to be racist assholes.

B-rad the Slavelord might just be the biggest of those assholes.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2020, 04:59:02 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1145867
Man, you get really pissed when SJWs are shown to be racist assholes.

Much butthurt I sense in him, cry like a bitch he should.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 21, 2020, 05:16:19 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1145867
Man, you get really pissed when SJWs are shown to be racist assholes.

Greetings!

Well, Ratman! SJW's are such racist assholes, aren't they? Fucking whining, shrieking bitches! SJW's are full of racism and hatred! These fucking losers are so fucked in the head that if say, a Hispanic person or a black person doesn't agree with them--they claim that such a person isn't Hispanic, or such a person isn't "really" black!!!! The SJW's hatred, racism, and stupidity is endless!:D

You are relentless against the sniveling bitches! It's so funny. I love it.
Don't let them have any rest or escape, like cockroaches when you throw the light on them!:D Chase them down and crush them. Crush them all!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 21, 2020, 05:17:31 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145886
Much butthurt I sense in him, cry like a bitch he should.

Greetings!

*Laughing* So true, my friend! Whaa! Whaa! Whaa! Such sweet, delicious tears!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 05:32:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145886
Much butthurt I sense in him, cry like a bitch he should.

GeekyBitch is the master of bitch whine
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 05:39:26 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1145890
Greetings!

*Laughing* So true, my friend! Whaa! Whaa! Whaa! Such sweet, delicious tears!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ah, the traitor joins in. Come on, betray America again just for your funsies, you piece of human trash.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 21, 2020, 05:51:52 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1145896
Ah, the traitor joins in. Come on, betray America again just for your funsies, you piece of human trash.

Greetings!

I am not a traitor to anything. Somehow, you believe standing against Marxists is treason? Fuck off, HappyDaze. As a veteran, we have an enduring oath that holds us to defending the Constitution and the Republic, and standing against all enemies, *FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC*

Marxists oppose our Constitution, and our Republic. ANTIFA and BLM are Marxists. Since the ANTIFA and BLM we are dealing with live here, amongst us, that makes them *DOMESTIC ENEMIES* I support our law enforcement, and our military.

I and other patriotic Americans seek to preserve and protect our great nation.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 06:01:39 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1145898
Greetings!

I am not a traitor to anything. Somehow, you believe standing against Marxists is treason? Fuck off, HappyDaze. As a veteran, we have an enduring oath that holds us to defending the Constitution and the Republic, and standing against all enemies, *FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC*

Marxists oppose our Constitution, and our Republic. ANTIFA and BLM are Marxists. Since the ANTIFA and BLM we are dealing with live here, amongst us, that makes them *DOMESTIC ENEMIES* I support our law enforcement, and our military.

I and other patriotic Americans seek to preserve and protect our great nation.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You don't know what an oath is, bitch. YOU are the domestic enemy.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Trond on August 21, 2020, 06:02:03 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1145850
B-rad counters racism by forcing labor... why not just say you're crying like a bitch because you want slaves, you shit?


Can't imagine that Brad was being a bit humorous can we?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 06:10:07 PM
Quote from: Trond;1145902
Can't imagine that Brad was being a bit humorous can we?

I've never found B-rad the least bit funny. It's his most endearing quality. It makes it so much better than when he whines like a bitch when people fuck with him on other sites.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 21, 2020, 06:18:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1145901
You don't know what an oath is, bitch. YOU are the domestic enemy.

Greetings!

I know quite well what an Oath is, fuckstick. I'm the domestic enemy? *laughing* Yeah, whatever. You keep thinking that, cupcake!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 06:22:10 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1145909
Greetings!

I know quite well what an Oath is, fuckstick. I'm the domestic enemy? *laughing* Yeah, whatever. You keep thinking that, cupcake!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Silly fishy, I'm not the only that thinks that, society is a thing. Your casual embracing of violence isn't a good fit for the real world. You are the enemy of the America we live in. So...what ya gonna do to that enemy? Fulfill your oath, or go belly-up?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2020, 06:33:20 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1145909
Greetings!

I know quite well what an Oath is, fuckstick. I'm the domestic enemy? *laughing* Yeah, whatever. You keep thinking that, cupcake!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Man, you should put the butthurt bitch on ignore, it only wants to waste your time and is thirsty for your attention.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: jeff37923 on August 21, 2020, 06:34:10 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145765
Just what the tin says, first it was Orcs = Black People, Goblins = Jews. etc

Now it's fucking Aliens, the bugs in the movie Aliens.

https://twitter.com/SophNar0747/status/1296244190351953920 (https://twitter.com/SophNar0747/status/1296244190351953920)


If you are so far gone that you see racism in the science fictional Aliens and Predators, then the only thing that can save you is a bullet to the head.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: jeff37923 on August 21, 2020, 06:35:57 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145914
Man, you should put the butthurt bitch on ignore, it only wants to waste your time and is thirsty for your attention.

This is just the dying gasp before getting banned or ragequitting. Seen it happen here multiple times. Biscuitition, Voros, TrippyHippy, Pseudoephedrine, etc.....
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2020, 06:41:13 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1145917
This is just the dying gasp before getting banned or ragequitting. Seen it happen here multiple times. Biscuitition, Voros, TrippyHippy, Pseudoephedrine, etc.....

Yeah, the idiot thought he could go off insulting me and I would talk to him as if nothing in the gaming forum...

He claims this is only an act and that his "true" self is what we saw before... I rather think it's the other way around, the mask fell of and he went postal.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 21, 2020, 06:43:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145914
Man, you should put the butthurt bitch on ignore, it only wants to waste your time and is thirsty for your attention.

Greetings!

Thank you, Hermano. He's fucking done. I've never used the ignore feature in all the years I have been a member here. HappyDaze is the first. He's a fucking pathetic, shit-sucking moron.

I have MOABed him now.

BOOM!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2020, 06:44:44 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1145921
Greetings!

Thank you, Hermano. He's fucking done. I've never used the ignore feature in all the years I have been a member here. HappyDaze is the first. He's a fucking pathetic, shit-sucking moron.

I have MOABed him now.

BOOM!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I've got the racist fuck and now put the SJW fuck on it. So much zen has been regained...
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 21, 2020, 06:52:55 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145919
Yeah, the idiot thought he could go off insulting me and I would talk to him as if nothing in the gaming forum...

He claims this is only an act and that his "true" self is what we saw before... I rather think it's the other way around, the mask fell of and he went postal.

Greetings!

Yeah, fuck HappyDaze. He's a fucking moron. He's such a tough guy! I'm a traitor? *laughing* I'd love to see him get in my face with that.

I agree. I think he was always an SJW getting sugar pumped into him. The opposition to his jello-swallowing here eventually got to be too much for him, and the real HappyDaze emerged, bitter, angry, and hateful. Just like all the other Marxist traitors running in the streets, shrieking their rage against true, good Americans everywhere.

All the scum-filled, filthy diseased rats like to run together, and whisper and shriek. He doesn't have OTHERS of his kind here to run with, so he has been getting increasingly defensive, and hostile, lashing out hysterically against many people here. I think he must have not been sucking down the psycho-tropic drugs he needs to remain stable. The SJWism is emerging more in him, like the baby Alien bursting from the guy's chest in the movie. REEEE! REEE! REEE!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 07:25:43 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145919
Yeah, the idiot thought he could go off insulting me and I would talk to him as if nothing in the gaming forum...

He claims this is only an act and that his "true" self is what we saw before... I rather think it's the other way around, the mask fell of and he went postal.

Some of us can separate gaming from the nonsense section of this site. You are obviously too stupid to do so, but considering your situation, that's quite understandable...but still pathetic.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 07:27:14 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1145921
Greetings!

Thank you, Hermano. He's fucking done. I've never used the ignore feature in all the years I have been a member here. HappyDaze is the first. He's a fucking pathetic, shit-sucking moron.

I have MOABed him now.

BOOM!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It's shark week folks. This asshole will be here all week.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1145925
Greetings!

Yeah, fuck HappyDaze. He's a fucking moron. He's such a tough guy! I'm a traitor? *laughing* I'd love to see him get in my face with that.

Why Sharktopuss? How do you think that would go? Please, share more of your violence-glorifying delusions with the crowd.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Shasarak on August 21, 2020, 08:33:01 PM
So black women are indestructible breeding machines just like the Alien Queen?

I am listening.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Razor 007 on August 22, 2020, 12:20:31 AM
White Dragons?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Omega on August 22, 2020, 12:43:55 AM
See my comment in some other recent thread on this.

The answer is NO. There is literally nothing that these sociopaths will not hallucinate as "ist" and that they held up today as perfect and right, tomorrow they will damn as evil and wrong.

And it gets better.

Once these cultists have gotten Orcs and aliens changed to be "more relresentative" or god knows what. Tomorrow they will turn around and claim that these orcs and aliesn REALLY represent the oppressive white colonialism! You monsters!
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 22, 2020, 01:14:13 AM
Quote from: Omega;1145963
See my comment in some other recent thread on this.

The answer is NO. There is literally nothing that these sociopaths will not hallucinate as "ist" and that they held up today as perfect and right, tomorrow they will damn as evil and wrong.

And it gets better.

Once these cultists have gotten Orcs and aliens changed to be "more relresentative" or god knows what. Tomorrow they will turn around and claim that these orcs and aliesn REALLY represent the oppressive white colonialism! You monsters!

Greetings!

So true, Omega! It's so pathetic and frustrating! Fuck these Marxist SJW jackasses!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: shuddemell on August 22, 2020, 08:48:33 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1145930
It's shark week folks. This asshole will be here all week.


The question is, when are you going away? You've jumped the shark into all insults all the time... I often wonder if blowhards like you would be willing to chime in in person? What happened to turn you this toxic? Someone rip your Che T-Shirt?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 22, 2020, 09:19:26 AM
Quote from: shuddemell;1145982
The question is, when are you going away? You've jumped the shark into all insults all the time... I often wonder if blowhards like you would be willing to chime in in person? What happened to turn you this toxic? Someone rip your Che T-Shirt?

Hey, we're all just here to have fun, right?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: sureshot on August 22, 2020, 09:31:47 AM
Quote from: shuddemell;1145982
The question is, when are you going away? You've jumped the shark into all insults all the time... I often wonder if blowhards like you would be willing to chime in in person? What happened to turn you this toxic? Someone rip your Che T-Shirt?

To be honest don't engage the Troll. He claims not to be an sJW and then acts as SJW as can be. See how you asked a responsible question and how it was ignored. With a "cant we all just be friends" bullshit. It does not follow the carefully constructed personal narrative that the Troll can never be wrong and everyone else. He is just like every other SJW in sheep clothing. Comes to sites like pretends to be a social chameleon claiming to be one of us and like every other poster who gets major pushback or no echo chamber he acts like a child in an adults body and pulls a shitfit while wallowing and throwing shit at everyone. Followed by the lie that we made and are making him act like this. No he was always like this his facade and lie through being a social chameleon failed and he was as he always.

Happydaze I know you will call me shitstain (how original not the first ten timesor so you used it.) I am done with you too and post away as I will no longer be able to see what you post.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: shuddemell on August 22, 2020, 09:47:52 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1145985
To be honest don't engage the Troll. He claims not to be an sJW and then acts as SJW as can be. See how you asked a responsible question and how it was ignored. With a "cant we all just be friends" bullshit. It does not follow the carefully constructed personal narrative that the Troll can never be wrong and everyone else. He is just like every other SJW in sheep clothing. Comes to sites like pretends to be a social chameleon claiming to be one of us and like every other poster who gets major pushback or no echo chamber he acts like a child in an adults body and pulls a shitfit while wallowing and throwing shit at everyone. Followed by the lie that we made and are making him act like this. No he was always like this his facade and lie through being a social chameleon failed and he was as he always.

Happydaze I know you will call me shitstain (how original not the first ten timesor so you used it.) I am done with you too and post away as I will no longer be able to see what you post.

You're probably right. I have to wonder though, since according to SJW dogma, words are violence and he is supposedly anti-violence, how that squares with his espoused philosophy. Since he is committing acts of drive-by verbal violence on a regular basis. Seems he has no problem with that hypocrisy...and even seems to enjoy it though it is entirely pointless and childish. Just puzzles me.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: sureshot on August 22, 2020, 09:58:39 AM
Quote from: shuddemell;1145986
You're probably right. I have to wonder though, since according to SJW dogma, words are violence and he is supposedly anti-violence, how that squares with his espoused philosophy. Since he is committing acts of drive-by verbal violence on a regular basis. Seems he has no problem with that hypocrisy...and even seems to enjoy it though it is entirely pointless and childish. Just puzzles me.

I recenlty permablocked someone on Facebook and from my life because of the same kind of bullshit. The guy swore up and down not an "SJW". As time wore on the facade and mask broke and the lies just were too much. Instead just like HZ the same hypocrisy and bullshit. Everyone must abide by their rules yet the same rules keep changing and they break them as they see fit. For me and the other hypocrite it was when he tried to bullshit me about the new casting changing for the Batwoman TV show and claiming it was not changing the character race. The character has been white since the character was introduced in the comics the new actress is black and it's not changing the character race. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's not raining. Instead of admitting it was accused me and two to other posters of being misogynistic and racist. My other two friends had enough and did what I did blocked him on FB and from their lives. The irony out of the three I was the centrist the other two were more on the left and liberal. Even for them it was too much and each and every time they tried to have a discussion and they did not agree the blocked poster could do no wrong, insults were thrown out and may words that ended in ist were tossed about. That is the thing SJWs like HZ refuse to realize even the moderate leftists just don't want to have anything to do with SJWs as time passes. It is impossible to engage with them on any meaningful level.

So just ignore the Troll imo. The less attention he receives the better as it seems his entire existence is based on how much people hate him on line. At least given the nature of how toxic and proud he is of it so don;t give him what he wants.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 22, 2020, 10:23:49 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1145985
To be honest don't engage the Troll. He claims not to be an sJW and then acts as SJW as can be. See how you asked a responsible question and how it was ignored. With a "cant we all just be friends" bullshit. It does not follow the carefully constructed personal narrative that the Troll can never be wrong and everyone else. He is just like every other SJW in sheep clothing. Comes to sites like pretends to be a social chameleon claiming to be one of us and like every other poster who gets major pushback or no echo chamber he acts like a child in an adults body and pulls a shitfit while wallowing and throwing shit at everyone. Followed by the lie that we made and are making him act like this. No he was always like this his facade and lie through being a social chameleon failed and he was as he always.

Happydaze I know you will call me shitstain (how original not the first ten timesor so you used it.) I am done with you too and post away as I will no longer be able to see what you post.

You're so terrified when your echo chamber changes pitch that you have to cry out like a little bitch. Classic...and delicious.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 22, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: shuddemell;1145986
You're probably right. I have to wonder though, since according to SJW dogma, words are violence and he is supposedly anti-violence, how that squares with his espoused philosophy. Since he is committing acts of drive-by verbal violence on a regular basis. Seems he has no problem with that hypocrisy...and even seems to enjoy it though it is entirely pointless and childish. Just puzzles me.

You think I buy into that words are violence bullshit? I'm not what the fools here think I am.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: David Johansen on August 22, 2020, 12:14:35 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1145937
So black women are indestructible breeding machines just like the Alien Queen?

I am listening.


I think you're on the right track.  The real question is why SJWs are so convinced that black people are monsters.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2020, 02:33:36 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;1145996
I think you're on the right track.  The real question is why SJWs are so convinced that black people are monsters.

They are the racists they claim to hate and oppose, this is no secret.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: shuddemell on August 22, 2020, 02:51:57 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1145990
You think I buy into that words are violence bullshit? I'm not what the fools here think I am.

No, not particularly.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Greywolf76 on August 22, 2020, 06:32:49 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1145889
Greetings!

Well, Ratman! SJW's are such racist assholes, aren't they? Fucking whining, shrieking bitches! SJW's are full of racism and hatred!


Hello, Shark.

This is so very true. The first time I heard this "orcs are blacks" I was so appalled I didn't know what to say. I've been playing RPGs for almost 30 years and I had never, ever heard this BS. Not even once.

Then I realized that SJWankers see savage and evil creatures such as orcs as "Blacks" because, deep down, that's how those wankers see black people. Most of those wankers are white libtards who see themselves as saviors of minorities, and they want to "save" orcs just like they want to "save Blacks".

It's nothing but virtue-signaling and the old disgusting racism. Just take a look at the way they treat Conservative Blacks or Latinos. Or those members of minority groups who refuse to dance according their deranged tune.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 22, 2020, 06:38:45 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1145850
B-rad counters racism by forcing labor... why not just say you're crying like a bitch because you want slaves, you shit?


Slavery is terribly outdated to our far better system where we import lots of illegals to depress the wages of the working class so they live as perpetual wage slaves, and we'll call that freedom.

Slaves revolt. Wage slaves just quit and quickly get replaced with new wage slaves.


Quote from: HappyDaze;1145901
You don't know what an oath is, bitch. YOU are the domestic enemy.


Meet Carlos Zapata, one of the million plus of your new "domestic enemies".




Quote from: jeff37923;1145917
This is just the dying gasp before getting banned or ragequitting. Seen it happen here multiple times. Biscuitition, Voros, TrippyHippy, Pseudoephedrine, etc.....


I have faith Happy Daze is made of stronger stuff!

He can't dance like the other nurses on TikTok, but he's just as amusing.


Quote from: David Johansen;1145996
The real question is why SJWs are so convinced that black people are monsters.


SJWs have fetishized black people. Blacks can't be seen as humans with the full spectrum of human experiences, both good and bad, but instead are viewed through various twisted (often sexualized) lens. That's never healthy and leads to weird mental issues like white guilt, white savior complex and white knighting.

Unfortunately, when white liberals ally with the worst elements within the black community, we get tremendous destruction and grave danger and harm to decent black Americans. The middle class flight from the cities and the shattering of race relations will bring at least a decade or more of pain. I recently read about the massive uptick in Chicago and NYC murders had 90% black and brown victims.

That's why voices like Carlos Zapata, the Conservative Twins (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PRZiFzonUo) and Jericho Green (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYY-xsfMg0TKz-gwQOMhcWA) are so important because Americans must understand the fight isn't white vs. black. It's America vs. all these SJWs, leftists and their useful idiots who would destroy us from within.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 22, 2020, 06:44:05 PM
Quote from: Greywolf76;1146021
Hello, Shark.

This is so very true. The first time I heard this "orcs are blacks" I was so appalled I didn't know what to say. I've been playing RPGs for almost 30 years and I had never, ever heard this BS. Not even once.

Then I realized that SJWankers see savage and evil creatures such as orcs as "Blacks" because, deep down, that's how those wankers see black people. Most of those wankers are white libtards who see themselves as saviors of minorities, and they want to "save" orcs just like they want to "save Blacks".

It's nothing but virtue-signaling and the old disgusting racism. Just take a look at the way they treat Conservative Blacks or Latinos. Or those members of minority groups who refuse to dance according their deranged tune.

No kidding.  I honestly feel sorry for black conservatives and most of all black police officers.  They get called race traitors, coons, and all sorts of nasty names.  They risk their lives to protect their communities and for no thanks.  Does anyone even remember Dorn and his valiant sacrifice in the line of duty to protect a shop during those riots?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Shasarak on August 22, 2020, 07:00:08 PM
Quote from: shuddemell;1145982
The question is, when are you going away? You've jumped the shark into all insults all the time... I often wonder if blowhards like you would be willing to chime in in person? What happened to turn you this toxic? Someone rip your Che T-Shirt?


I think he has Grim Jimitis.  One too many Wuhan virus deniers sent him over the edge.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 22, 2020, 07:00:40 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;1146023
Does anyone even remember Dorn and his valiant sacrifice in the line of duty to protect a shop during those riots?

I do. He was a retired St. Louis police captain (https://www.foxnews.com/us/david-dorn-shooting-arrest-murder-charge-announced-in-killing-of-retired-st-louis-police-captain). He wasn't on duty when the fine folks of Burn Loot Murder committed their "mostly peaceful" looting and killing.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Greywolf76 on August 22, 2020, 07:23:27 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;1146023
No kidding.  I honestly feel sorry for black conservatives and most of all black police officers.  They get called race traitors, coons, and all sorts of nasty names.  They risk their lives to protect their communities and for no thanks.  Does anyone even remember Dorn and his valiant sacrifice in the line of duty to protect a shop during those riots?

Agreed, Snowman. I remember David Dorn, it broke my heart.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 22, 2020, 07:25:36 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1146026
I do. He was a retired St. Louis police captain (https://www.foxnews.com/us/david-dorn-shooting-arrest-murder-charge-announced-in-killing-of-retired-st-louis-police-captain). He wasn't on duty when the fine folks of Burn Loot Murder committed their "mostly peaceful" looting and killing.

I thought he went back on duty, but still that was my only error on a great man who deserved better.  How is his family doing?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 22, 2020, 07:28:49 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1146025
I think he has Grim Jimitis.  One too many Wuhan virus deniers sent him over the edge.

It's really more the ease with which hard right extremist propaganda videos are posted up here as though they are quality sources and the usual assholes then they to claim that anyone that calls them on their bullshit is obviously a SJW/Marxist/Communist/whatever the fuck their them is today. I'm a conservative, but this extremist shit is fucking embarrassing. It's far worse when some of the fuckers then try to stoke up violence through their idiotic rhetoric while pointing fingers because it's being done by them (some in reality, but all in these morons' claims).
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 22, 2020, 08:00:26 PM
Quote from: Greywolf76;1146021
Hello, Shark.

This is so very true. The first time I heard this "orcs are blacks" I was so appalled I didn't know what to say. I've been playing RPGs for almost 30 years and I had never, ever heard this BS. Not even once.

Then I realized that SJWankers see savage and evil creatures such as orcs as "Blacks" because, deep down, that's how those wankers see black people. Most of those wankers are white libtards who see themselves as saviors of minorities, and they want to "save" orcs just like they want to "save Blacks".

It's nothing but virtue-signaling and the old disgusting racism. Just take a look at the way they treat Conservative Blacks or Latinos. Or those members of minority groups who refuse to dance according their deranged tune.

Greetings!

Hello, my friend! Yeah, the naked racism towards black people and others is so sad, but also horrifying. The SJW's whole view of black people being orcs? WTF? It's all projection on their part, you know? The SJW's are all smug, condescending, elitist fucksticks that believe they are a special, anointed elite that has a mission and duty to guide, instruct, and ultimately rule over everyone else. The more they run their mouth and spread their shit, the more disgusting and horrifying they become. Then you see how they treat Hispanics or black people that are Conservative--calling them hateful names, describing them of not being "Hispanic" or "Black"--it's all so shrill and genuinely hateful.

I am always overjoyed to meet and hear--especially Hispanics and black folks that are Conservative, or have become so. They stand tall often not just against sniveling white people everywhere around them trying to tear them down, intimidate them, and silence them--but also members of their own minority community, and even their own families.

I love them, and it always makes me want to stand next to them in unity, whatever the odds. Fuck the SJW's. All of these kinds of people--the SJW's, BLM, Antifa--they are all Marxists. I've known this for decades. It's finally getting out to all the ordinary Americans as they watch our cities burn, and as they observe how these fucktards seek to bring their poisonous ideology into our hobby. Years ago, many that were say, not "Red Pilled"--would claim a Conservative such as myself was an extremist, too strident, harsh, alarmist, and uncharitable towards all of these jello-minded, sweet, "peace loving" Leftists.

Now, how is that looking?:D

Not bragging, but a good part of it is that I am a Historian, and have carefully studied history with passion all my life, since I was a kid. Most other Americans simply haven't. They are typically grossly ignorant and uneducated. I had learned through history about how Marxists infiltrated societies and organized revolutions and changing cultures--Russia, China, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, etc, etc. Then I see stupid American Marxists using the same language, the same ideologies, and pushing for the same kinds of divisions, conflict, and power grabs that Marxists have used before, not just to overthrow governments, but to change, influence, and overthrow *cultures*.

These people are traitors, and they are dark, evil, and savage. They see themselves as a special elite, destined to rule over everyone else, including you and I. This is why I get so passionate and vocal about opposing them, even in the seemingly "trivial" corners of our hobby. They work to make terrible changes in every aspect of culture and society--despite their often sweet words and worthy-seeming goals. Their deeper intentions and goals are most certainly malevolent, elitist, and tyrannical.

Even apart from historical knowledge and academics, I have served with many black Americans and Hispanic Americans alike at my side in a Marine Rifle Company. These aren't minorities that these SJW scum would like, though. They are men of strength, loyalty, and honour. They are thoroughly Conservative, passionate, and faithful. I'd love to see these SJW's get in their faces, of my fellow Marines, and spout their elitist, Marxist, racism and hate.:D

There are more minority folks though getting smart to these SJW's though! More and more gamers are getting smart to the SJW's and Marxists as well.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: DocJones on August 22, 2020, 08:39:08 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1146025
I think he has Grim Jimitis.  One too many Wuhan virus deniers sent him over the edge.

Nailed it!
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: RandyB on August 22, 2020, 08:44:03 PM
In the words of Yuri Bezemov, SJWs are among the Useful Idiots who believe that, come the revolution, they will rule. Instead, they will be the first to be lined up against the wall and shot. Because, while they will still be Idiots, they will no longer be Useful.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 22, 2020, 09:02:43 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1146038
In the words of Yuri Bezemov, SJWs are among the Useful Idiots who believe that, come the revolution, they will rule. Instead, they will be the first to be lined up against the wall and shot. Because, while they will still be Idiots, they will no longer be Useful.

Greetings!

Damn right, my friend! USEFUL IDIOTS!!! They are the first to be lined up on the wall and shot! Yuri Bezemov is awesome, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 22, 2020, 09:03:54 PM
Quote from: DocJones;1146037
Nailed it!

Greetings!

*Laughing* Hilarious, isn't it?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 22, 2020, 09:34:18 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146032
It's really more the ease with which hard right extremist propaganda videos are posted up here as though they are quality sources and the usual assholes then they to claim that anyone that calls them on their bullshit is obviously a SJW/Marxist/Communist/whatever the fuck their them is today. I'm a conservative, but this extremist shit is fucking embarrassing. It's far worse when some of the fuckers then try to stoke up violence through their idiotic rhetoric while pointing fingers because it's being done by them (some in reality, but all in these morons' claims).


Fuck off Commie Marxist bastard!



You're just jealous of our huge American penises!
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 22, 2020, 09:35:31 PM
What happend with Grim Jim? I missed that gossip.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 22, 2020, 09:40:24 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;1146031
How is his family doing?

I'm sure they're doing great! Probably loved watching about the nation's elite bowing before Fentanyl Floyd and his gold casket while their heroic loved one's life of service was snuffed out (and memory holed by much of the media). Dorn wasn't just a cop. He was heavily involved in community programs to divert kids from crime. His life was everything Burn Loot Murder hates and seeks to destroy.  


Quote from: HappyDaze;1146032
It's really more the ease with which hard right extremist propaganda videos are posted up here as though they are quality sources

Right extremist propaganda??? LOL. That's hysterically cute.

You are free to post any videos you like.

Turns out the process to post videos is the same for all forum members.


Quote from: HappyDaze;1146032
I'm a conservative, but this extremist shit is fucking embarrassing.

Kids, here's an example why words like "conservative" are meaningless because sellouts like Kasich and Romney have given people like Happy Daze the impression that you can gobble down all the leftist rhetoric and kneel before them, but turn around and make believe they're an American, which is beyond laughable in any sense beyond the definition "might pay taxes and get recorded in a census."

And I love, LOVE, love the phrase "extremist shit" because I know what he really means.

The empty people of the mushy middle HATE it when somebody stands with passion and puts walk to their talk. You see this in churches all the time where it's acceptable to quietly shake your head when the priest/pastor talks about abortion, but only the "scary extremists" stand in front of the Planned Parenthood and preach the gospel.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 22, 2020, 09:43:00 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1146047
Fuck off Commie Marxist bastard!



You're just jealous of our huge American penises!

I'm not at all jealous of a pathetic fuckwit like you. But I do like that film, so thanks for that.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 22, 2020, 09:48:30 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1146051
I'm sure they're doing great! Probably loved watching about the nation's elite bowing before Fentanyl Floyd and his gold casket while their heroic loved one's life of service was snuffed out (and memory holed by much of the media). Dorn wasn't just a cop. He was heavily involved in community programs to divert kids from crime. His life was everything Burn Loot Murder hates and seeks to destroy.  




Right extremist propaganda??? LOL. That's hysterically cute.

You are free to post any videos you like.

Turns out the process to post videos is the same for all forum members.




Kids, here's an example why words like "conservative" are meaningless because sellouts like Kasich and Romney have given people like Happy Daze the impression that you can gobble down all the leftist rhetoric and kneel before them, but turn around and make believe they're an American, which is beyond laughable in any sense beyond the definition "might pay taxes and get recorded in a census."

And I love, LOVE, love the phrase "extremist shit" because I know what he really means.

The empty people of the mushy middle HATE it when somebody stands with passion and puts walk to their talk. You see this in churches all the time where it's acceptable to quietly shake your head when the priest/pastor talks about abortion, but only the "scary extremists" stand in front of the Planned Parenthood and preach the gospel.


Yes, we all know you're a one of the far right conspiracy nutters, and of course I'm among those you disavow in your attempt to make everything us vs. them. You're a fucking moron. I don't post  narrated videos because there's nothing worthwhile in doing so if we're having a reasonable discussion...which we don't anyhow because everything here is bullshit and lies. So keep lying, and I'll keep laughing at your stupid ass for doing so. America would've so much better off without the likes of you and the other traitors to the nation's ideals that creep around this site.

And get real, there's no walk to your talk, you little bitch, so you can stop pretending.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 22, 2020, 10:19:13 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146055
Yes, we all know you're a one of the far right conspiracy nutters,


We all know?

I'm so happy you made some imaginary friends!!! Did you give them names yet?  

Tell us oh perfect one, what "far right conspiracy theories" have I nutted about?

This should be fun!


Quote from: HappyDaze;1146055
I'm among those you disavow in your attempt to make everything us vs. them.


I don't disavow chew toys. I grew up poor. I play with my toys until there's nothing left.

You're neither "us" nor "them" because you're just mush. The "them" is loud and proud of their hate for America and desire to see it destroyed for their ideology. You can't even muster that strength.


Quote from: HappyDaze;1146055
You're a fucking moron.


Woot! I love fucking!!!

I'm FUCKING loving watching you break.


Quote from: HappyDaze;1146055
I don't post  narrated videos because there's nothing worthwhile in doing so if we're having a reasonable discussion...which we don't anyhow because everything here is bullshit and lies.


Then don't post narrated videos. It's a free speech forum. Post any kind of videos you like.

You're free to post videos exposing the Great Truth known to you and your "we all know" imaginary friends.

Listen, I would have preferred a far more deadly pandemic too! Millions dead would have been like a wildfire that leaves the wilderness reborn. But like everything else made in China, the KungFlu crapped out and never lived up to its advertisement.

You want us to bow down to the CoronaChan narrative, but some of us can read and do math.


Quote from: HappyDaze;1146055
America would've so much better off without the likes of you and the other traitors to the nation's ideals that creep around this site.


I can barely describe the UTTER JOY of being a "traitor" what whatever weakling noise you call "ideals".


Quote from: HappyDaze;1146055
And get real, there's no walk to your talk, you little bitch, so you can stop pretending.


Little known fact: the above was an exact quote from King George III when he received his copy of the Declaration of Independence.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 22, 2020, 10:39:22 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146052
I'm not at all jealous of a pathetic fuckwit like you. But I do like that film, so thanks for that.

Of course you do, because within your cold, dark, SJW heart you yearn to be free.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 22, 2020, 10:56:49 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1146065
Of course you do, because within your cold, dark, SJW heart you yearn to be free.

Try harder ratfuck; your bullshit-fu is weak, boy.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 22, 2020, 11:00:03 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1146065
Of course you do, because within your cold, dark, SJW heart you yearn to be free.

Greetings!

*Laughing* You know he gnashes his teeth, yearning to be free! Whaa! Whaa! Whaa! Give him some more sweet, rainbow jello, Ratman!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 22, 2020, 11:10:31 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146067
Try harder ratfuck; your bullshit-fu is weak, boy.

Your every insult just makes my huge American penis harder.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 22, 2020, 11:15:12 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1146071
Your every insult just makes my huge American penis harder.

The small children you groom must be terrified.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: sureshot on August 22, 2020, 11:28:59 PM
It's a pattern with SHWs yo never admit being wrong and trying to pass themselves off as one of the group except their actions indicate they firmly are SJWs.

The problem with a lot of them is growing up they were never told the word no and expect everyone to dated to their desires. Made worse by other gaming forums silencing criticism. Many think they are going to show up to someone home game and not only tell both the DM and players they are not running the game incorrectly, racist they must change the campaign world now or else. Good luck with that imo. The sites like TBP where the mods are not impartial are not a reflection of reality. Many will be shown the door immediately and have it slammed into their face.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: shuddemell on August 23, 2020, 07:37:46 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146032
It's really more the ease with which hard right extremist propaganda videos are posted up here as though they are quality sources and the usual assholes then they to claim that anyone that calls them on their bullshit is obviously a SJW/Marxist/Communist/whatever the fuck their them is today. I'm a conservative, but this extremist shit is fucking embarrassing. It's far worse when some of the fuckers then try to stoke up violence through their idiotic rhetoric while pointing fingers because it's being done by them (some in reality, but all in these morons' claims).


This is a genuine question. What conservative values do you actually hold? I'm not on here all the time, and so far I have yet to see you support or endorse what I would consider a core conservative value.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 23, 2020, 10:02:10 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146072
The small children you groom must be terrified.

You know, I'm happy to play games with you, but that's too far.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 23, 2020, 10:15:08 AM
Quote from: shuddemell;1146111
This is a genuine question. What conservative values do you actually hold? I'm not on here all the time, and so far I have yet to see you support or endorse what I would consider a core conservative value.

So we don't go back and forth with the No True Conservative game, you start by making me a list of what you consider core conservative values.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 23, 2020, 11:21:26 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1146120
You know, I'm happy to play games with you, but that's too far.

Just put him on ignore.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2020, 01:29:45 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1146120
You know, I'm happy to play games with you, but that's too far.

And now it becomes clear that putting the whinny bitch on ignore was the right choice.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 23, 2020, 01:43:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146131
And now it becomes clear that putting the whinny bitch on ignore was the right choice.

Yeah, I think he's lost his entertainment value. Off to the cornfield he goes.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: jeff37923 on August 23, 2020, 01:43:11 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146072
The small children you groom must be terrified.


It is not long before the end now......

Every banning/ragequit has a period of pedophile name-calling right before the poster self-destructs.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 23, 2020, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1146134
It is not long before the end now......

Every banning/ragequit has a period of pedophile name-calling right before the poster self-destructs.

Greetings!

Hello my friend! You know, your analysis makes me wonder, Jeff. If someone, a person, has such hatred for so many people here--where there commentary and response almost always includes being rude, abrasive, and insulting to people--why would that person bother to be a member of whatever community, where evidently, they are outnumbered by so many others that are opposed to them, but to them, also seem to be such terrible monsters?

Imagine getting online everyday, and responding to posts where you are subtly sneered at and disparaged--or openly insulted--and in the process of defending yourself, such dialogue becomes nothing but shit slinging, like maniacal baboons? In his case, we can clearly identify the general point where he suddenly jumped the rail, and has descended into being a shit-covered baboon ever since. What causes such baboons to become progressively more vile and poisonous?

There's even MORE people putting HappyDaze on IGNORE now. Soon, HappyDaze will be a shit-covered baboon screeching in the dark mineshaft, listening only to himself. I suspect you are right though, and he will be banned or rage-quit before getting to such a point. It is a strange tendency though, isn't it?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 23, 2020, 02:31:41 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146131
And now it becomes clear that putting the whinny bitch on ignore was the right choice.

Greetings!

Si, Hermano! It's so sad. HappyDaze is devolving into a shit-covered baboon, right before our eyes. Calling someone a pedophile, or alluding to such? Really? Such uncalled for behavior--and more--makes it entirely worthless and pointless to even engage with him. If the fucker was to say such things to your face, what would that get him?

If the dialogue involving a person reaches a point where you start thinking about this person needs to be taught some proper manners with a lead pipe or a good piece of hickory, the point of dialogue has been left far behind.

Since we are dealing with the written conversation here, the IGNORE feature I have noticed makes everything much more pleasant. My Hermano, I have seen the Light!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 23, 2020, 02:33:17 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1146133
Yeah, I think he's lost his entertainment value. Off to the cornfield he goes.

Greetings!

*LAUGHING* "Off to the cornfield he goes!":D Fucking hilarious, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 23, 2020, 02:35:35 PM
Amazing what the NPCs here will label others or allude to and then get all self-righteous when it happens to them. Fuck you all, bitches. Ignore me if you like, I'll keep making fun of your disgusting habits for any that want to see...and for my own entertainment, of course.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: jeff37923 on August 23, 2020, 03:21:29 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1146138
Greetings!

Hello my friend! You know, your analysis makes me wonder, Jeff. If someone, a person, has such hatred for so many people here--where there commentary and response almost always includes being rude, abrasive, and insulting to people--why would that person bother to be a member of whatever community, where evidently, they are outnumbered by so many others that are opposed to them, but to them, also seem to be such terrible monsters?

Imagine getting online everyday, and responding to posts where you are subtly sneered at and disparaged--or openly insulted--and in the process of defending yourself, such dialogue becomes nothing but shit slinging, like maniacal baboons? In his case, we can clearly identify the general point where he suddenly jumped the rail, and has descended into being a shit-covered baboon ever since. What causes such baboons to become progressively more vile and poisonous?

There's even MORE people putting HappyDaze on IGNORE now. Soon, HappyDaze will be a shit-covered baboon screeching in the dark mineshaft, listening only to himself. I suspect you are right though, and he will be banned or rage-quit before getting to such a point. It is a strange tendency though, isn't it?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I believe that there are two things at work here.

1) These very vocal CISGs (Common Internet Shit Gibbons, nod to Larry Correia for the acronym) believe themselves to be martyrs. They have been fighting the social justice fight for so long that they have forgotten the difference between good attention and bad attention, so any attention is worth the effort to them.

2) They are not serious about arguing their points and trying to change people's minds. Instead, they are playing to an unseen audience that they believe follows their ramblings with rapt attention and cheers them on to greater heights of "speaking truth to power".

Among SJW circle jerks, they can link to these exchanges and use them as evidence about how they go into the most EVIL places and fearlessly show those non-woke asswipes who's the boss, virtue signalling their "heroism" all the way. Thus giving their empty lives some semblance of meaning.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2020, 03:22:54 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1146133
Yeah, I think he's lost his entertainment value. Off to the cornfield he goes.

There's a limit to what I'm willing to allow, some name-calling is included but there's a line, and happywhinybitch crossed it a while ago. The more I see him quoted the more I think putting him on ignore was the right choice.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2020, 03:26:03 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1146140
Greetings!

Si, Hermano! It's so sad. HappyDaze is devolving into a shit-covered baboon, right before our eyes. Calling someone a pedophile, or alluding to such? Really? Such uncalled for behavior--and more--makes it entirely worthless and pointless to even engage with him. If the fucker was to say such things to your face, what would that get him?

If the dialogue involving a person reaches a point where you start thinking about this person needs to be taught some proper manners with a lead pipe or a good piece of hickory, the point of dialogue has been left far behind.

Since we are dealing with the written conversation here, the IGNORE feature I have noticed makes everything much more pleasant. My Hermano, I have seen the Light!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Were he to get on my face and call me a Pedo? He would be picking out his teeth from the floor. No need for sticks or pipes tho, my fists are enough.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 23, 2020, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146149
There's a limit to what I'm willing to allow, some name-calling is included but there's a line, and happywhinybitch crossed it a while ago. The more I see him quoted the more I think putting him on ignore was the right choice.

No one gives a fuck what you are willing to allow.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 23, 2020, 03:29:09 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146150
Were he to get on my face and call me a Pedo? He would be picking out his teeth from the floor. No need for sticks or pipes tho, my fists are enough.
Are you threatening me? That is not wise, and I don't think that would play out the way you imagine.

And for the record, did you learn your ways from a priest or a scout master?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: RandyB on August 23, 2020, 03:40:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146150
Were he to get on my face and call me a Pedo? He would be picking out his teeth from the floor. No need for sticks or pipes tho, my fists are enough.

Remember:

SJWs always project. They accuse you of what they are guilty of, if only in their secret thoughts.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 23, 2020, 03:56:24 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1146154
Remember:

SJWs always project. They accuse you of what they are guilty of, if only in their secret thoughts.

Remember, it's damn funny to see these right-wing hardasses get triggered so easily. It's their fragile NPC programming that's to blame.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2020, 03:58:55 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1146154
Remember:

SJWs always project. They accuse you of what they are guilty of, if only in their secret thoughts.

Yep, they always project, lie and double down.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 23, 2020, 04:04:45 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146157
Yep, they always project, lie and double down.

That's pretty much what you do GeekyBitch. Are you a SJW? That would explain your REEEE! screeching...but that could just be your condition too. Sad they overlap so much; makes hard to tell.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: sureshot on August 23, 2020, 04:19:12 PM
The good thing is because SJWs always alienate everyone around them they end up bothering no one but themselves. Eventually even leftist don't want anything to do with them. Which the  tv fail to understand or remotely care.

Is HZ still spouting the absolute lie that he is a Conservative. Either the worlds most enlightened Conservative which is possible or truly an SJW trying to pass himself off as a martyr. Either way he is not fooling anyone anymore. Especially when he claims to be a Conservative yet probably evades any questions when asking about his supposed Conservative value.

If Trump wins and he is still on this site expect a very public meltdown of epic proportions.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: sureshot on August 23, 2020, 04:23:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146157
Yep, they always project, lie and double down.


Without fail. The Liberal friend and SJW actually got into a public FB argument with the SJW clearly wrong and refusing to back down while doubling down on his bullshit. It's been a few days since I was able to see HZ toxic lies has he admitted to any being wrong in anyway. 0r as usual wallowing around in his own shit and filth.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2020, 04:24:14 PM
Quote from: sureshot;1146159
The good thing is because SJWs always alienate everyone around them they end up bothering no one but themselves. Eventually even leftist don't want anything to do with them. Which the  tv fail to understand or remotely care.

Is HZ still spouting the absolute lie that he is a Conservative. Either the worlds most enlightened Conservative which is possible or truly an SJW trying to pass himself off as a martyr. Either way he is not fooling anyone anymore. Especially when he claims to be a Conservative yet probably evades any questions when asking about his supposed Conservative value.

If Trump wins and he is still on this site expect a very public meltdown of epic proportions.

Unless it includes it's pronouns I don't think it'll be funny enough to watch.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2020, 04:25:06 PM
Quote from: sureshot;1146161
Without fail. The Liberal friend and SJW actually got into a public FB argument with the SJW clearly wrong and refusing to back down while doubling down on his bullshit. It's been a few days since I was able to see HZ toxic lies has he admitted to any being wrong in anyway. 0r as usual wallowing around in his own shit and filth.

No Idea, I only see his shit slinging when quoted.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 23, 2020, 05:17:29 PM
Quote from: sureshot;1146159
If Trump wins and he is still on this site expect a very public meltdown of epic proportions.

What the fuck are you talking about shitstain?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: sureshot on August 23, 2020, 05:28:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146163
No Idea, I only see his shit slinging when quoted.


So no big loss then on my part. I have better things to do than engage with the Troll.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 23, 2020, 10:38:42 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1146154
Remember:

SJWs always project. They accuse you of what they are guilty of, if only in their secret thoughts.


Greetings!

So true, RandyB! Geesus, the SJW's are such scum.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: SHARK on August 23, 2020, 10:43:13 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1146148
I believe that there are two things at work here.

1) These very vocal CISGs (Common Internet Shit Gibbons, nod to Larry Correia for the acronym) believe themselves to be martyrs. They have been fighting the social justice fight for so long that they have forgotten the difference between good attention and bad attention, so any attention is worth the effort to them.

2) They are not serious about arguing their points and trying to change people's minds. Instead, they are playing to an unseen audience that they believe follows their ramblings with rapt attention and cheers them on to greater heights of "speaking truth to power".

Among SJW circle jerks, they can link to these exchanges and use them as evidence about how they go into the most EVIL places and fearlessly show those non-woke asswipes who's the boss, virtue signalling their "heroism" all the way. Thus giving their empty lives some semblance of meaning.


Greetings!

Goddamn, Jeff! Talk about hitting the nail on the head, my friend! So very true! "Speaking truth to power" and believing themselves to be martyrs. All so desperate to give their empty lives some semblance of meaning.

Outstanding, Jeff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 23, 2020, 11:47:48 PM
Quote from: shuddemell;1146111
This is a genuine question. What conservative values do you actually hold? I'm not on here all the time, and so far I have yet to see you support or endorse what I would consider a core conservative value.


THIS would be a good thread of its own for everyone to discuss.

It will be interesting to see how various people define "conservative values".


Quote from: HappyDaze;1146072
The small children you groom must be terrified.


THAT was funny. Good to see you're still capable of a comeback.

Sorry guys, but THAT's the kinda line my friends throw around the table.


Quote from: jeff37923;1146134
Every banning/ragequit has a period of pedophile name-calling right before the poster self-destructs.


I have faith in HD to hang in there!!!

He can dooooo it!


Quote from: SHARK;1146138
Soon, HappyDaze will be a shit-covered baboon screeching in the dark mineshaft, listening only to himself.


Fuck that!!!

I will never miss the Adventures of HappyChew Toy!!
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: shuddemell on August 24, 2020, 07:58:30 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146123
So we don't go back and forth with the No True Conservative game, you start by making me a list of what you consider core conservative values.


I would say this is a good summary...

THE SIX CORE BELIEFS OF CONSERVATISM
July 31, 2018 By Russell Kirk
The following is excerpted from The Essential Russell Kirk, a collection of his finest essays and writings.

"What is conservatism?" Abraham Lincoln inquired rhetorically, as he campaigned for the presidency of the United States. "Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" By that test, the candidate told his audience, Abraham Lincoln was a conservative.

Other definitions have been offered. In Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary one encounters this:

"Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others." . . .
Although it is no ideology, conservatism may be apprehended reasonably well by attention to what leading writers and politicians, generally called conservative, have said and done. . . . "Conservatism," to put the matter another way, amounts to the consensus of the leading conservative thinkers and actors over the past two centuries. For our present purpose, however, we may set down below several general principles upon which most eminent conservatives in some degree may be said to have agreed implicitly. The following first principles are best discerned in the theoretical and practical politics of British and American conservatives.

1. TRANSCENDENT ORDER
First, conservatives generally believe that there exists a transcendent moral order, to which we ought to try to conform the ways of society. A divine tactic, however dimly descried, is at work in human society. Such convictions may take the form of belief in "natural law" or may assume some other expression; but with few exceptions conservatives recognize the need for enduring moral authority. This conviction contrasts strongly with the liberals' utilitarian view of the state (most consistently expressed by Bentham's disciples), and with the radicals' detestation of theological postulates.

2. SOCIAL CONTINUITY
Second, conservatives uphold the principle of social continuity. They prefer the devil they know to the devil they don't know. Order and justice and freedom, they believe, are the artificial products of a long and painful social experience, the results of centuries of trial and reflection and sacrifice. Thus the body social is a kind of spiritual corporation, comparable to the church; it may even be called a community of souls. Human society is no machine, to be treated mechanically. The continuity, the lifeblood, of a society must not be interrupted. Burke's reminder of the social necessity for prudent change is in the minds of conservatives. But necessary change, they argue, ought to be gradual and discriminatory, never "unfixing old interests at once." Revolution slices through the arteries of a culture, a cure that kills.

3. PRESCRIPTION
Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription. "The wisdom of our ancestors" is one of the more important phrases in the writings of Burke; presumably Burke derived it from Richard Hooker. Conservatives sense that modern men and women are dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, able to see farther than their ancestors only because of the great stature of those who have preceded us in time. Therefore conservatives very frequently emphasize the importance of "prescription"--that is, of things established by immemorial usage, so "that the mind of man runneth not to the contrary." There exist rights of which the chief sanction is their antiquity--including rights in property, often. Similarly, our morals are prescriptive in great part. Conservatives argue that we are unlikely, we moderns, to make any brave new discoveries in morals or politics or taste. It is perilous to weigh every passing issue on the basis of private judgment and private rationality. "The individual is foolish, but the species is wise," Burke declared. In politics we do well to abide by precedent and precept and even prejudice, for "the great mysterious incorporation of the human race" has acquired habits, customs, and conventions of remote origin which are woven into the fabric of our social being; the innovator, in Santayana's phrase, never knows how near to the taproot of the tree he is hacking.

4. PRUDENCE
Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence. Burke agrees with Plato that in the statesman, prudence is chief among virtues. Any public measure ought to be judged by its probable long-run consequences, not merely by temporary advantage or popularity. Liberals and radicals, the conservative holds, are imprudent: for they dash at their objectives without giving much heed to the risk of new abuses worse than the evils they hope to sweep away. Human society being complex, remedies cannot be simple if they are to be effective. The conservative declares that he acts only after sufficient reflection, having weighed the consequences. Sudden and slashing reforms are perilous as sudden and slashing surgery. The march of providence is slow; it is the devil who always hurries.

5. VARIETY
Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety. They feel affection for the proliferating intricacy of long-established social institutions and modes of life, as distinguished from the narrowing uniformity and deadening egalitarianism of radical systems. For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality in the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at leveling lead, at best, to social stagnation. Society longs for honest and able leadership; and if natural and institutional differences among people are destroyed, presently some tyrant or host of squalid oligarchs will create new forms of inequality. Similarly, conservatives uphold the institution of private property as productive of human variety: without private property, liberty is reduced and culture is impoverished.

6. IMPERFECTION
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectibility. Human nature suffers irremediably from certain faults, the conservatives know. Man being imperfect, no perfect social order ever can be created. Because of human restlessness, mankind would grow rebellious under any utopian domination, and would break out once more in violent discontent--or else expire of boredom. To aim for utopia is to end in disaster, the conservative says: we are not made for perfect things. All that we reasonably can expect is a tolerably ordered, just, and free society, in which some evils, maladjustments, and suffering continue to lurk. By proper attention to prudent reform, we may preserve and improve this tolerable order. But if the old institutional and moral safeguards of a nation are forgotten, then the anarchic impulses in man break loose: "the ceremony of innocence is drowned."

Such are six of the major premises of what Walter Bagehot, a century ago, called "reflective conservatism." To have set down some principal convictions of conservative thinkers, in the fashion above, may be misleading: for conservative thought is not a body of immutable secular dogmas. Our purpose here has been broad description, not fixed definition. If one requires a single sentence--why, let it be said that for the conservative, politics is the art of the possible, not the art of the ideal.

Edmund Burke turned to first principles in politics only with reluctance, believing that "metaphysical" politicians let loose dreadful mischief by attempting to govern nations according to abstract notions. Conservatives have believed, following Burke, that general principles always must be tempered, in any particular circumstances, by what Burke called expedience, or prudence; for particular circumstances vary infinitely, and every nation must observe its own traditions and historical experience--which should take precedence over universal notions drawn up in some quiet study. Yet Burke did not abjure general ideas; he distinguished between "abstraction" (or a priori notions divorced from a nation's history and necessities) and "principle" (or sound general ideas derived from a knowledge of human nature and of the past). Principles are necessary to a statesman, but they must be applied discreetly and with infinite caution to the workaday world. The preceding six conservative principles, therefore, are to be taken as a rough catalog of the general assumptions of conservatives, and not as a tidy system of doctrines for governing a state.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Greywolf76 on August 24, 2020, 08:03:51 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1146159

If Trump wins...

Hi, Sureshot.

"if"? No, he will win, and I think it will be a landslide.

In fact, he must, because there's no other option.

You see, I'm not even American, but I know very well what a Biden victory means not only to America, but to the rest of the world.

I remember during the Cold War days how we looked up to America as our first line of defense against the URSS and, decades later, against global terrorism. Now we need America to stand up against communist China and globalists like Soros. And so far Pres. Trump has done a very good job.

The USA can neither compromise nor make concessions to their enemies, like Pres. Obama did with Iran and Cuba.  And I shudder to imagine a world with Biden in the White House.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 24, 2020, 08:07:41 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146157
Yep, they always project, lie and double down.


While I consider Vox Day to be a very silly fellow, said axiom is proof that just because someone is an ass doesn't mean they're wrong.

(And considering the tendency of 'male feminists' to be revealed as sex pests...)
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Greywolf76 on August 24, 2020, 08:46:32 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1146035
Greetings!

Hello, my friend! Yeah, the naked racism towards black people and others is so sad, but also horrifying. The SJW's whole view of black people being orcs? WTF? It's all projection on their part, you know? The SJW's are all smug, condescending, elitist fucksticks that believe they are a special, anointed elite that has a mission and duty to guide, instruct, and ultimately rule over everyone else. The more they run their mouth and spread their shit, the more disgusting and horrifying they become. Then you see how they treat Hispanics or black people that are Conservative--calling them hateful names, describing them of not being "Hispanic" or "Black"--it's all so shrill and genuinely hateful.

I am always overjoyed to meet and hear--especially Hispanics and black folks that are Conservative, or have become so. They stand tall often not just against sniveling white people everywhere around them trying to tear them down, intimidate them, and silence them--but also members of their own minority community, and even their own families.

I love them, and it always makes me want to stand next to them in unity, whatever the odds. Fuck the SJW's. All of these kinds of people--the SJW's, BLM, Antifa--they are all Marxists. I've known this for decades. It's finally getting out to all the ordinary Americans as they watch our cities burn, and as they observe how these fucktards seek to bring their poisonous ideology into our hobby. Years ago, many that were say, not "Red Pilled"--would claim a Conservative such as myself was an extremist, too strident, harsh, alarmist, and uncharitable towards all of these jello-minded, sweet, "peace loving" Leftists.

Now, how is that looking?:D

Not bragging, but a good part of it is that I am a Historian, and have carefully studied history with passion all my life, since I was a kid. Most other Americans simply haven't. They are typically grossly ignorant and uneducated. I had learned through history about how Marxists infiltrated societies and organized revolutions and changing cultures--Russia, China, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, etc, etc. Then I see stupid American Marxists using the same language, the same ideologies, and pushing for the same kinds of divisions, conflict, and power grabs that Marxists have used before, not just to overthrow governments, but to change, influence, and overthrow *cultures*.

These people are traitors, and they are dark, evil, and savage. They see themselves as a special elite, destined to rule over everyone else, including you and I. This is why I get so passionate and vocal about opposing them, even in the seemingly "trivial" corners of our hobby. They work to make terrible changes in every aspect of culture and society--despite their often sweet words and worthy-seeming goals. Their deeper intentions and goals are most certainly malevolent, elitist, and tyrannical.

Even apart from historical knowledge and academics, I have served with many black Americans and Hispanic Americans alike at my side in a Marine Rifle Company. These aren't minorities that these SJW scum would like, though. They are men of strength, loyalty, and honour. They are thoroughly Conservative, passionate, and faithful. I'd love to see these SJW's get in their faces, of my fellow Marines, and spout their elitist, Marxist, racism and hate.:D

There are more minority folks though getting smart to these SJW's though! More and more gamers are getting smart to the SJW's and Marxists as well.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


Hello, Shark!

First of all, thanks for you service.

I agree with you 100%, my friend.

Marxists failed to take the world with their "proletarian vs. bourgeois" bullshit, and after the collapse of Communism in the former URSS and Eastern Europe they started waging a "Culture War" against anyone that actively opposes them, especially Christians, Conservatives and Classical Liberals. They follow to the letter the teaching of Antonio Gramsci, Saul Alinsky and the Frankfurt School.

The "proletariat" has been replaced by the "minorities", and class struggle has been replaced by victimization, politically correct and hypernormalisation. They are actively working to undermine our values and our society by their infiltration in Entertainment, Academia, Sports and the Press. And the SJWankers are nothing but the puppets and useful idiots of Marxist leaders, just like the Russian "proletarians" before them. And they will have the same ending if their revolution is successful.

That's why I feel relieved and happy about the "Walk Away Movement" and that so many Conservative Blacks and Hispanics are speaking against the mob rule and Marxist values, and that they are influencing more and more people by the day.

You see, I was shocked to see how a blatantly Marxist and racist movement such as BLM could grow in America. How a domestic terrorist group such as "Antifa" could become so strong there.

I'm not American, but I grew up admiring this great country for its values. Of course it's not a perfect country (there's no such thing) but it is a great country. I always wanted to move there as a kid. It didn't work out unfortunately, but I visited many times and my love and admiration has grown with each and every visit. (I still have a dream to move to Wyoming with my family someday; I love the nature and weather there - it's such a beautiful State - and the "small town" feel of the cities. And the people, too, of course).

But I digress.

Anyway, I find ridiculous to see people like Kaepernick and other privileged "Hollyweird" folks saying they "hate America", that it's not a good place to live, and disrespecting the country's flag and anthem by "taking a knee" (WTF?). Hey, if any of these idiots want to trade places with me, I'll be more than happy to oblige! :)

But after I found out about the influence that disgusting cultural Marxists and America-haters such as Saul Alinsky and Bill Ayers had upon an entire generation, things became more and more clear.

And that's why we cannot compromise with neither SJWankers nor their masters. We must fight back in this Culture War and take our stand.

Sorry for the long-winded rant, by the way!

Greywolf
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: RandyB on August 24, 2020, 09:04:37 AM
Quote from: shuddemell;1146218
I would say this is a good summary...

THE SIX CORE BELIEFS OF CONSERVATISM
July 31, 2018 By Russell Kirk
The following is excerpted from The Essential Russell Kirk, a collection of his finest essays and writings.

"What is conservatism?" Abraham Lincoln inquired rhetorically, as he campaigned for the presidency of the United States. "Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" By that test, the candidate told his audience, Abraham Lincoln was a conservative.

Other definitions have been offered. In Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary one encounters this:

"Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others." . . .
Although it is no ideology, conservatism may be apprehended reasonably well by attention to what leading writers and politicians, generally called conservative, have said and done. . . . "Conservatism," to put the matter another way, amounts to the consensus of the leading conservative thinkers and actors over the past two centuries. For our present purpose, however, we may set down below several general principles upon which most eminent conservatives in some degree may be said to have agreed implicitly. The following first principles are best discerned in the theoretical and practical politics of British and American conservatives.

1. TRANSCENDENT ORDER
First, conservatives generally believe that there exists a transcendent moral order, to which we ought to try to conform the ways of society. A divine tactic, however dimly descried, is at work in human society. Such convictions may take the form of belief in "natural law" or may assume some other expression; but with few exceptions conservatives recognize the need for enduring moral authority. This conviction contrasts strongly with the liberals' utilitarian view of the state (most consistently expressed by Bentham's disciples), and with the radicals' detestation of theological postulates.

2. SOCIAL CONTINUITY
Second, conservatives uphold the principle of social continuity. They prefer the devil they know to the devil they don't know. Order and justice and freedom, they believe, are the artificial products of a long and painful social experience, the results of centuries of trial and reflection and sacrifice. Thus the body social is a kind of spiritual corporation, comparable to the church; it may even be called a community of souls. Human society is no machine, to be treated mechanically. The continuity, the lifeblood, of a society must not be interrupted. Burke's reminder of the social necessity for prudent change is in the minds of conservatives. But necessary change, they argue, ought to be gradual and discriminatory, never "unfixing old interests at once." Revolution slices through the arteries of a culture, a cure that kills.

3. PRESCRIPTION
Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription. "The wisdom of our ancestors" is one of the more important phrases in the writings of Burke; presumably Burke derived it from Richard Hooker. Conservatives sense that modern men and women are dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, able to see farther than their ancestors only because of the great stature of those who have preceded us in time. Therefore conservatives very frequently emphasize the importance of "prescription"--that is, of things established by immemorial usage, so "that the mind of man runneth not to the contrary." There exist rights of which the chief sanction is their antiquity--including rights in property, often. Similarly, our morals are prescriptive in great part. Conservatives argue that we are unlikely, we moderns, to make any brave new discoveries in morals or politics or taste. It is perilous to weigh every passing issue on the basis of private judgment and private rationality. "The individual is foolish, but the species is wise," Burke declared. In politics we do well to abide by precedent and precept and even prejudice, for "the great mysterious incorporation of the human race" has acquired habits, customs, and conventions of remote origin which are woven into the fabric of our social being; the innovator, in Santayana's phrase, never knows how near to the taproot of the tree he is hacking.

4. PRUDENCE
Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence. Burke agrees with Plato that in the statesman, prudence is chief among virtues. Any public measure ought to be judged by its probable long-run consequences, not merely by temporary advantage or popularity. Liberals and radicals, the conservative holds, are imprudent: for they dash at their objectives without giving much heed to the risk of new abuses worse than the evils they hope to sweep away. Human society being complex, remedies cannot be simple if they are to be effective. The conservative declares that he acts only after sufficient reflection, having weighed the consequences. Sudden and slashing reforms are perilous as sudden and slashing surgery. The march of providence is slow; it is the devil who always hurries.

5. VARIETY
Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety. They feel affection for the proliferating intricacy of long-established social institutions and modes of life, as distinguished from the narrowing uniformity and deadening egalitarianism of radical systems. For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality in the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at leveling lead, at best, to social stagnation. Society longs for honest and able leadership; and if natural and institutional differences among people are destroyed, presently some tyrant or host of squalid oligarchs will create new forms of inequality. Similarly, conservatives uphold the institution of private property as productive of human variety: without private property, liberty is reduced and culture is impoverished.

6. IMPERFECTION
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectibility. Human nature suffers irremediably from certain faults, the conservatives know. Man being imperfect, no perfect social order ever can be created. Because of human restlessness, mankind would grow rebellious under any utopian domination, and would break out once more in violent discontent--or else expire of boredom. To aim for utopia is to end in disaster, the conservative says: we are not made for perfect things. All that we reasonably can expect is a tolerably ordered, just, and free society, in which some evils, maladjustments, and suffering continue to lurk. By proper attention to prudent reform, we may preserve and improve this tolerable order. But if the old institutional and moral safeguards of a nation are forgotten, then the anarchic impulses in man break loose: "the ceremony of innocence is drowned."

Such are six of the major premises of what Walter Bagehot, a century ago, called "reflective conservatism." To have set down some principal convictions of conservative thinkers, in the fashion above, may be misleading: for conservative thought is not a body of immutable secular dogmas. Our purpose here has been broad description, not fixed definition. If one requires a single sentence--why, let it be said that for the conservative, politics is the art of the possible, not the art of the ideal.

Edmund Burke turned to first principles in politics only with reluctance, believing that "metaphysical" politicians let loose dreadful mischief by attempting to govern nations according to abstract notions. Conservatives have believed, following Burke, that general principles always must be tempered, in any particular circumstances, by what Burke called expedience, or prudence; for particular circumstances vary infinitely, and every nation must observe its own traditions and historical experience--which should take precedence over universal notions drawn up in some quiet study. Yet Burke did not abjure general ideas; he distinguished between "abstraction" (or a priori notions divorced from a nation's history and necessities) and "principle" (or sound general ideas derived from a knowledge of human nature and of the past). Principles are necessary to a statesman, but they must be applied discreetly and with infinite caution to the workaday world. The preceding six conservative principles, therefore, are to be taken as a rough catalog of the general assumptions of conservatives, and not as a tidy system of doctrines for governing a state.


I am a Traditionalist, not a Conservative, because Chesterton was right:

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected. Even when the revolutionist might himself repent of his revolution, the traditionalist is already defending it as part of his tradition. Thus we have two great types -- the advanced person who rushes us into ruin, and the retrospective person who admires the ruins. He admires them especially by moonlight, not to say moonshine. Each new blunder of the progressive or prig becomes instantly a legend of immemorial antiquity for the snob. This is called the balance, or mutual check, in our Constitution." (Illustrated London News, 1924)
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: shuddemell on August 24, 2020, 10:24:02 AM
Quote from: RandyB;1146232
I am a Traditionalist, not a Conservative, because Chesterton was right:

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected. Even when the revolutionist might himself repent of his revolution, the traditionalist is already defending it as part of his tradition. Thus we have two great types -- the advanced person who rushes us into ruin, and the retrospective person who admires the ruins. He admires them especially by moonlight, not to say moonshine. Each new blunder of the progressive or prig becomes instantly a legend of immemorial antiquity for the snob. This is called the balance, or mutual check, in our Constitution." (Illustrated London News, 1924)

I largely consider myself a classical liberal ala John Locke, though economically conservative. I wouldn't consider it a fair interpretation of conservatism to say their business is to prevent correction of mistakes, even though it often does manifest that way due to our two party system. I might even consider myself a Libertarian, unfortunately they are as prone to Utopian thinking as the Marxists and neither is practical in many cases.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 24, 2020, 02:38:09 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1146197

THAT was funny. Good to see you're still capable of a comeback.

Sorry guys, but THAT's the kinda line my friends throw around the table.


Eh. I can appreciate a good pedophilia joke, but when it's just a direct insult, it's lame. "You diddle kiddies!" Pffft. Whatever.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 24, 2020, 11:04:14 PM
Quote from: Greywolf76;1146220
"if"? No, he will win, and I think it will be a landslide.

In fact, he must, because there's no other option.


I will be happy if Trump wins by 1 electoral college vote. I couldn't care if he loses the "popular vote" by 400 million.

The country is too divided for landslides to exist anymore, and the upcoming voter fraud by the left means that Trump has to win by a huge margin just to scrape by with any victory.
 
But unfortunately, there is very much another "option." If Americans don't get out and vote IN PERSON for Trump in massive droves, the Harris/Biden ticket will win, then Biden will step down and his handlers will puppet Harris to fuck us all.


Quote from: Greywolf76;1146220
You see, I'm not even American, but I know very well what a Biden victory means not only to America, but to the rest of the world.


Sadly, I fear most Americans do not.

I have a hard time believing the Silent Majority is going to show up and vote (if they even exist). I haven't heard about massive voter registrations happening.


Quote from: Greywolf76;1146220
The USA can neither compromise nor make concessions to their enemies, like Pres. Obama did with Iran and Cuba.  And I shudder to imagine a world with Biden in the White House.


Biden's handlers will hand the world to China.

And the MSM will cover for them.
 


Quote from: Greywolf76;1146226
You see, I was shocked to see how a blatantly Marxist and racist movement such as BLM could grow in America. How a domestic terrorist group such as "Antifa" could become so strong there.


I was shocked by the mass capitulation to Burn Loot Murder's violence.

Notice you didn't see business owners and citizens protesting in Portland, Seattle and Minneapolis for something to be done. By the hundreds, businesses have been destroyed and the citizens do nothing.

But I shouldn't have been shocked because the country has capitulated to Kung Flu hysteria and happily thrown away the Constitution in the hope that we can trade enough rights to make the sniffles go away.


Quote from: Greywolf76;1146220
I'm not American, but I grew up admiring this great country for its values.


That was a different America.

The current America thinks its "totes awesomesauce" when 3 year olds want to change gender and their single moms get them chemically castrated.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Greywolf76 on August 26, 2020, 05:42:31 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1146328
I will be happy if Trump wins by 1 electoral college vote. I couldn't care if he loses the "popular vote" by 400 million.

The country is too divided for landslides to exist anymore, and the upcoming voter fraud by the left means that Trump has to win by a huge margin just to scrape by with any victory.
 
But unfortunately, there is very much another "option." If Americans don't get out and vote IN PERSON for Trump in massive droves, the Harris/Biden ticket will win, then Biden will step down and his handlers will puppet Harris to fuck us all.


Well, "popular vote" in the USA is not what the biased media wants everybody to think it is. So I don't care, either.

And I really believe Trump will win, perhaps not by a landslide, but he will (bar any election frauds).



Quote from: Spinachcat;1146328

Sadly, I fear most Americans do not.

I have a hard time believing the Silent Majority is going to show up and vote (if they even exist). I haven't heard about massive voter registrations happening.


I hope you're wrong, Spinachcat.

Just one question, if I may: do you have to register to vote for each and every election? Or is it just a one-time registration, unless you move to a different district or city?


Quote from: Spinachcat;1146328

Biden's handlers will hand the world to China.

And the MSM will cover for them.


That's why I said if Biden wins the world will go down in a shitstorm of Apocalyptic proportions. Obama's presidency will be considered marvelous by comparison (and I think Pres. Obama was one of the worst presidents in American History, as bad as - if not worse than - Jimmy Carter).



Quote from: Spinachcat;1146328

I was shocked by the mass capitulation to Burn Loot Murder's violence.

Notice you didn't see business owners and citizens protesting in Portland, Seattle and Minneapolis for something to be done. By the hundreds, businesses have been destroyed and the citizens do nothing.

But I shouldn't have been shocked because the country has capitulated to Kung Flu hysteria and happily thrown away the Constitution in the hope that we can trade enough rights to make the sniffles go away.


You can add Chicago to the list. All of them "Blue" cities in "Blue" states, right? I hope people really wake up in those places.

In cities and states where people are more aware of those things or where local governments haven't backed up and supported BLM and "Antifart" terrorists (the so-called Red states and cities), I haven't seen it happening. I may be wrong, though.


Quote from: Spinachcat;1146328

That was a different America.

The current America thinks its "totes awesomesauce" when 3 year olds want to change gender and their single moms get them chemically castrated.


You may be right. I've seen terrorists slapping people inside churches, and bullying and throwing flour over an old lady and no one did anything, and Kenosha looks like Fallujah.

But, then again, I've been watching the RNC and some of those speeches showed me that America is still a great country. Perhaps more people need to remember this. I hope they do.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Chris24601 on August 26, 2020, 08:36:38 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1146328
The current America thinks its "totes awesomesauce" when 3 year olds want to change gender and their single moms get them chemically castrated.

Don't confuse the internet and media boosted tiny minority with an actual majority. I mentioned in another thread regarding cancel culture, but when they came after Rush Limbaugh's advertisers and stations he actually had it investigated and they discovered that all the tens of thousands of tweets and angry emails and Facebook posts claiming broad nationwide outrage were the result of sock puppets run by just TEN people.

Similarly, these protests are a few hundred people in each city (many not even local) of 100+ thousand.

We're actually talking about maybe 1% of the population with a complicit media and Leftist elected officials (many probably holding their positions not by actual popular vote but fraud) acting as a megaphone to make them look invincible.

There is a silent majority who fear being targeted by that insane 1%; they're keeping their heads down until election day because cold anger is much more purposeful and willing to endure slings and arrows until it's time to act decisively.

If there weren't a legitimate silent majority set to crush them, the Leftists wouldn't be throwing everything into their increasingly unhinged vote stealing schemes, orchestrated violence and attempts to crash the economy. Nancy Pelosi wouldn't be calling Trump voters "enemies of the state" and pondering yet another attempt at impeachment.

No, if they had an actual majority they'd be sitting back and saying "let's have a proper election where we'll win a clear electoral mandate."

My personal feeling is that the current powers that be were so convinced that, via Hillary, THEY were finally going to be the generation who actually got to institute and oversee the end results of the generational push towards their Marxist utopia (and the establishment Republicans were in position to be permanent underdogs grifting off the conservative voters while lamenting their inability to act)... only to have victory snatched from them at the last possible moment (like it was the climax of some action film) by an unplanned for third party... and the realization that, if that third party actually followed through on his promises the opportunity for their utopia would not come again in their lifetimes (because Soros, Nancy, Bill Gates, et al are all old farts who make the septuagenarian President Trump look like a fresh young buck in comparison... yes, I know Gates is younger but the dude is aging like a reverse Dorian Grey).

So they RAGE! They scream and scheme to snatch the Ring of Power back from those with the will to throw it into Mount Doom. There is NOTHING they will not be willing to do to get the power they sold their souls for and was convinced belonged to them.

The entire Leftist power structure is flailing about like your favorite chew toy HappyDaze is because it's literally all they have left. They either regain their power now or (at least for this generation) never. These aren't the flexing of hidden muscles... they're the death throes of this Leftist generations' dreams of power (and the dawning horror that it will be up to the likes of idiots like AOC to actually carry the ball down the field for the next attempt).

At least that's my read on it.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: moonsweeper on August 26, 2020, 10:06:43 PM
Quote from: Chris24601;1146604
Don't confuse the internet and media boosted tiny minority with an actual majority. I mentioned in another thread regarding cancel culture, but when they came after Rush Limbaugh's advertisers and stations he actually had it investigated and they discovered that all the tens of thousands of tweets and angry emails and Facebook posts claiming broad nationwide outrage were the result of sock puppets run by just TEN people.

Similarly, these protests are a few hundred people in each city (many not even local) of 100+ thousand.

We're actually talking about maybe 1% of the population with a complicit media and Leftist elected officials (many probably holding their positions not by actual popular vote but fraud) acting as a megaphone to make them look invincible.

There is a silent majority who fear being targeted by that insane 1%; they're keeping their heads down until election day because cold anger is much more purposeful and willing to endure slings and arrows until it's time to act decisively.

If there weren't a legitimate silent majority set to crush them, the Leftists wouldn't be throwing everything into their increasingly unhinged vote stealing schemes, orchestrated violence and attempts to crash the economy. Nancy Pelosi wouldn't be calling Trump voters "enemies of the state" and pondering yet another attempt at impeachment.

No, if they had an actual majority they'd be sitting back and saying "let's have a proper election where we'll win a clear electoral mandate."

My personal feeling is that the current powers that be were so convinced that, via Hillary, THEY were finally going to be the generation who actually got to institute and oversee the end results of the generational push towards their Marxist utopia (and the establishment Republicans were in position to be permanent underdogs grifting off the conservative voters while lamenting their inability to act)... only to have victory snatched from them at the last possible moment (like it was the climax of some action film) by an unplanned for third party... and the realization that, if that third party actually followed through on his promises the opportunity for their utopia would not come again in their lifetimes (because Soros, Nancy, Bill Gates, et al are all old farts who make the septuagenarian President Trump look like a fresh young buck in comparison... yes, I know Gates is younger but the dude is aging like a reverse Dorian Grey).

So they RAGE! They scream and scheme to snatch the Ring of Power back from those with the will to throw it into Mount Doom. There is NOTHING they will not be willing to do to get the power they sold their souls for and was convinced belonged to them.

The entire Leftist power structure is flailing about like your favorite chew toy HappyDaze is because it's literally all they have left. They either regain their power now or (at least for this generation) never. These aren't the flexing of hidden muscles... they're the death throes of this Leftist generations' dreams of power (and the dawning horror that it will be up to the likes of idiots like AOC to actually carry the ball down the field for the next attempt).

At least that's my read on it.



Pretty much.  If they thought they were going to win they wouldn't be rocking the boat.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Chris24601 on August 27, 2020, 01:53:10 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1146612
Pretty much.  If they thought they were going to win they wouldn't be rocking the boat.

To follow up the thought a bit regarding the Left's implosion; it's worth noting that the other half of the old guard establishment (the one content with permanent underdog status in exchange for a place at the trough) has already been significantly nuked by President Trump hijacking their party.

The Establishment Republicans have fought him every step of the way. The Gang of Eight including Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell (but notably excluding Devin Nunes who they side-lined with an phony ethics investigation during that time) and the Republican members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence were 100% complicit in the phony Russia coup attempt. It also takes but a single senator voting nay to prevent the use of pro forma to remain in session and yet not a single Senate Republican voted so, thus making President Trump the first President in US history to be denied a single recess appointment and to be unable to completely staff the executive branch during his entire term.

They hate him every bit as much as the Leftists for trying to close down their part of the gravy train (notably Endless Wars Inc. and selling out the US middle class for bennies from China by way of the US Chamber of Crony Commerce). They just have to pretend to be on his side because the President has a 90+% approval among the party base.

Those who couldn't grit their teeth ran off to be NeverTrumpers and are, by and large, grifters who made their living by paying lip service to the "conservative" agenda, but utterly failing to deliver when actually given power for "reasons."

The whole question of "what are conservative principles?" is moot. The NeverTrumpers and Establishment killed the term as meaning anything as President Trump started implementing everything they always claimed they'd wanted, but was labeled not a conservative for doing so. It's as meaningless as Liberal is today.

Honestly, I gave up describing myself as "conservative" a long time ago. I'm a subsidiarity-based national populist. I believe that all power should be devolved to the lowest level of organization (nation, state, county, city, borough/township, family/friends, individual) able to handle a given problem and the rights of those at lower levels of organization to be free to solve their own problems and manage their own property must be protected.

Education, for example, sits somewhere in the borough/township and family level so federal and state involvement should be minimal to non-existent. If you think otherwise, then try taking an exam needed to graduate the eighth-grade back in 1900 or so (you can find plenty online) back before our education system was nationalized... and then get back to me.

I believe nation-states are the natural highest level of subsidiarity for protecting the best interests of people and attempts to give power to higher levels has always resulted in the erosion of individual liberties and human misery. I further believe that by having individual nations (and states within those nations, etc.) able to act in their own interests you will have continued experimentation for developing "best practices" as our growing technology changes the way we live our lives.

I believe that the best systems are those that arise naturally from populations at each level rather than those imposed on the population from the top down. When individuals and groups have the freedom to innovate, everyone's lives improve.

I also believe the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights are probably as close as humanity has ever gotten to perfectly codifying and enshrining the above principles I believe in and that those who want to rip them down and replace them with the eternal failures that are all the fruits of Marxism are enemies of the good and enemies of the people.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: sureshot on August 27, 2020, 08:13:58 AM
Quote from: Chris24601;1146604
Don't confuse the internet and media boosted tiny minority with an actual majority. I mentioned in another thread regarding cancel culture, but when they came after Rush Limbaugh's advertisers and stations he actually had it investigated and they discovered that all the tens of thousands of tweets and angry emails and Facebook posts claiming broad nationwide outrage were the result of sock puppets run by just TEN people.

Similarly, these protests are a few hundred people in each city (many not even local) of 100+ thousand.

We're actually talking about maybe 1% of the population with a complicit media and Leftist elected officials (many probably holding their positions not by actual popular vote but fraud) acting as a megaphone to make them look invincible.

There is a silent majority who fear being targeted by that insane 1%; they're keeping their heads down until election day because cold anger is much more purposeful and willing to endure slings and arrows until it's time to act decisively.

If there weren't a legitimate silent majority set to crush them, the Leftists wouldn't be throwing everything into their increasingly unhinged vote stealing schemes, orchestrated violence and attempts to crash the economy. Nancy Pelosi wouldn't be calling Trump voters "enemies of the state" and pondering yet another attempt at impeachment.

No, if they had an actual majority they'd be sitting back and saying "let's have a proper election where we'll win a clear electoral mandate."

My personal feeling is that the current powers that be were so convinced that, via Hillary, THEY were finally going to be the generation who actually got to institute and oversee the end results of the generational push towards their Marxist utopia (and the establishment Republicans were in position to be permanent underdogs grifting off the conservative voters while lamenting their inability to act)... only to have victory snatched from them at the last possible moment (like it was the climax of some action film) by an unplanned for third party... and the realization that, if that third party actually followed through on his promises the opportunity for their utopia would not come again in their lifetimes (because Soros, Nancy, Bill Gates, et al are all old farts who make the septuagenarian President Trump look like a fresh young buck in comparison... yes, I know Gates is younger but the dude is aging like a reverse Dorian Grey).

So they RAGE! They scream and scheme to snatch the Ring of Power back from those with the will to throw it into Mount Doom. There is NOTHING they will not be willing to do to get the power they sold their souls for and was convinced belonged to them.

The entire Leftist power structure is flailing about like your favorite chew toy HappyDaze is because it's literally all they have left. They either regain their power now or (at least for this generation) never. These aren't the flexing of hidden muscles... they're the death throes of this Leftist generations' dreams of power (and the dawning horror that it will be up to the likes of idiots like AOC to actually carry the ball down the field for the next attempt).

At least that's my read on it.

Agreed and seconded. Television at least what is on TV at the moment likes to portray Latinos as being ultra progressive full accepting and embracing gay and LGQT culture when many are the complete opposite and very believe in very traditional values at least those aged 30-35+. It's the same way that every commercial and shows likes to push the narrative that every couple is a mixed couple with guy and trans being the norm and straight couples being the exception. When at least in my neck of the woods white people date white people, Asian date Asian etc. Mixed couples exist to the extent the media and movies want to portray it hardly.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: RandyB on August 27, 2020, 08:51:21 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1146612
Pretty much.  If they thought they were going to win they wouldn't be rocking the boat.

Even better. They are all guilty of various felony crimes, up to and including treason. Which means they are facing anything from hard time to the death penalty.

That'd cause more than a little desperation, dontcha think?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Warboss Squee on August 27, 2020, 08:33:42 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1146612
Pretty much.  If they thought they were going to win they wouldn't be rocking the boat.

They'd vote for Hitler if it meant taking a swipe at the guy they keep calling Hitler.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Slipshot762 on August 30, 2020, 07:08:16 AM
The Kenosha Kid has taught us that if the police won't enforce the laws against arson you do it yourself and after you blow away a few commutards  the police suddenly regain their desire to enforce the law. If police allowed arsonist to operate in my town i would be hunting rioters and any police that had a problem with that could get some too. i am not obligated to have my home burned down so meth heads can larp as revolutionaries, and its the job of the police to prevent such, if they cannot or will not then they are no longer police as far as i'm concerned. besides once i get a taste i cant stop myself until i'm out of ammo anyway. if you are forced to drop some commies and then the cops are all like "we need to arrest you for homo-cide" my stance is "hold my beer i'm a bout to dindunuffin".
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 30, 2020, 04:55:47 PM
Quote from: Slipshot762;1146970
besides once i get a taste i cant stop myself until i'm out of ammo anyway.

Oh, this one is a real gem, isn't he?
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Slipshot762 on August 30, 2020, 05:06:47 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146977
Oh, this one is a real gem, isn't he?

you might not be american if you've never shot up every round you broguht that day.
Title: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 31, 2020, 08:08:02 AM
"In Jersey everything's legal, as long as you don't get caught."
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 02, 2020, 02:42:12 PM
TBP has announced that comparing real people to fantasy races is against their rules.


https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/new-policy-racism-and-fantasy-species.868896/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/new-policy-racism-and-fantasy-species.868896/)


I'm not sure if this means the whole argument is now banned. IE claiming that fantasy monsters are racist stereotypes.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Panzerkraken on September 02, 2020, 02:52:55 PM

TBP has announced that comparing real people to fantasy races is against their rules.I'm not sure if this means the whole argument is now banned. IE claiming that fantasy monsters are racist stereotypes.

Not the whole argument, he says that it only goes one way.. you CAN draw lines between the fictional presentation of the fantasy races and real-world situations in the sense of identifying how a treatment of orcs in a given setting is representative of how Native Americans were viewed by white settlers, but you can't turn around and say "Those protesters are just like a screaming horde of goblins."

<shrug>
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 03, 2020, 08:34:28 AM

TBP has announced that comparing real people to fantasy races is against their rules.I'm not sure if this means the whole argument is now banned. IE claiming that fantasy monsters are racist stereotypes.
Not the whole argument, he says that it only goes one way.. you CAN draw lines between the fictional presentation of the fantasy races and real-world situations in the sense of identifying how a treatment of orcs in a given setting is representative of how Native Americans were viewed by white settlers, but you can't turn around and say "Those protesters are just like a screaming horde of goblins."

<shrug>
TBP's mod team is hypocritical and biased. What else is new?
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on September 03, 2020, 09:29:08 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1146612
Pretty much.  If they thought they were going to win they wouldn't be rocking the boat.
To follow up the thought a bit regarding the Left's implosion; it's worth noting that the other half of the old guard establishment (the one content with permanent underdog status in exchange for a place at the trough) has already been significantly nuked by President Trump hijacking their party.

The Establishment Republicans have fought him every step of the way. The Gang of Eight including Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell (but notably excluding Devin Nunes who they side-lined with an phony ethics investigation during that time) and the Republican members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence were 100% complicit in the phony Russia coup attempt. It also takes but a single senator voting nay to prevent the use of pro forma to remain in session and yet not a single Senate Republican voted so, thus making President Trump the first President in US history to be denied a single recess appointment and to be unable to completely staff the executive branch during his entire term.

They hate him every bit as much as the Leftists for trying to close down their part of the gravy train (notably Endless Wars Inc. and selling out the US middle class for bennies from China by way of the US Chamber of Crony Commerce). They just have to pretend to be on his side because the President has a 90+% approval among the party base.

Those who couldn't grit their teeth ran off to be NeverTrumpers and are, by and large, grifters who made their living by paying lip service to the "conservative" agenda, but utterly failing to deliver when actually given power for "reasons."

The whole question of "what are conservative principles?" is moot. The NeverTrumpers and Establishment killed the term as meaning anything as President Trump started implementing everything they always claimed they'd wanted, but was labeled not a conservative for doing so. It's as meaningless as Liberal is today.

Honestly, I gave up describing myself as "conservative" a long time ago. I'm a subsidiarity-based national populist. I believe that all power should be devolved to the lowest level of organization (nation, state, county, city, borough/township, family/friends, individual) able to handle a given problem and the rights of those at lower levels of organization to be free to solve their own problems and manage their own property must be protected.

Education, for example, sits somewhere in the borough/township and family level so federal and state involvement should be minimal to non-existent. If you think otherwise, then try taking an exam needed to graduate the eighth-grade back in 1900 or so (you can find plenty online) back before our education system was nationalized... and then get back to me.

I believe nation-states are the natural highest level of subsidiarity for protecting the best interests of people and attempts to give power to higher levels has always resulted in the erosion of individual liberties and human misery. I further believe that by having individual nations (and states within those nations, etc.) able to act in their own interests you will have continued experimentation for developing "best practices" as our growing technology changes the way we live our lives.

I believe that the best systems are those that arise naturally from populations at each level rather than those imposed on the population from the top down. When individuals and groups have the freedom to innovate, everyone's lives improve.

I also believe the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights are probably as close as humanity has ever gotten to perfectly codifying and enshrining the above principles I believe in and that those who want to rip them down and replace them with the eternal failures that are all the fruits of Marxism are enemies of the good and enemies of the people.
Well said, the whole thing, even the parts I don't entirely agree with. :)
I've been calling myself a little "c" conservative for a long time.  Different terminology, a lot of the same thoughts behind it.  Mainly because I think the conservative attitude about life survives as a recognizable thing even if the Conservative political movement has been destroyed by the GOP establishment. 

If you want to get right down to my beliefs, I'd say that I think when the founders had all their arguments about liberty and tradition and republics and democracies, etc, their compromises were mostly on spot.  (That one big exception about slavery is the exception that proves the rule, not invalidates the rest of it.  They knew it at the time, as any even moderately educated in American history would know, not to be confused with the Zinn credentialed fools.)  I guess that makes me a "US Constitutionalist", though I think the additions later by Andrew Jackson had a lot to recommend them as well.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: moonsweeper on September 03, 2020, 09:47:10 AM

Well said, the whole thing, even the parts I don't entirely agree with. :)
I've been calling myself a little "c" conservative for a long time.  Different terminology, a lot of the same thoughts behind it.  Mainly because I think the conservative attitude about life survives as a recognizable thing even if the Conservative political movement has been destroyed by the GOP establishment. 

If you want to get right down to my beliefs, I'd say that I think when the founders had all their arguments about liberty and tradition and republics and democracies, etc, their compromises were mostly on spot.  (That one big exception about slavery is the exception that proves the rule, not invalidates the rest of it.  They knew it at the time, as any even moderately educated in American history would know, not to be confused with the Zinn credentialed fools.)  I guess that makes me a "US Constitutionalist", though I think the additions later by Andrew Jackson had a lot to recommend them as well.


Pretty much agree with you and chris here...(that's why i use the term small 'l' libertarian for myself...)


and I love "Zinn credentialed fools", I am going to have to remember that one.  :)
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Omega on September 04, 2020, 12:06:44 PM
Back on topic. You know, the one a few pages back...
Over on BGG they are at it again with a thread on how orcs are WACIST and as mentioned elsewhere here at least one designer has had his historical game denied because it had George Washington in it and you know George was WACIST! And other designers providing proof that why yes George is WACIST because he bought slaves.
Censoring games is going to spread.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: RandyB on September 04, 2020, 12:11:49 PM
Back on topic. You know, the one a few pages back...
Over on BGG they are at it again with a thread on how orcs are WACIST and as mentioned elsewhere here at least one designer has had his historical game denied because it had George Washington in it and you know George was WACIST! And other designers providing proof that why yes George is WACIST because he bought slaves.
Censoring games is going to spread.


Minor correction: "is spreading".

The Hyperbole Hysteria across all these threads looks even stupider than it already did.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: The Spaniard on September 04, 2020, 07:30:05 PM
Get a load of this guy.  Talk about going to great lengths to make absolutely no sense...


https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Why-Do-Orc-Lives-Matter (https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Why-Do-Orc-Lives-Matter)
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 08, 2020, 12:59:48 PM

Have you ever read The Last Ringbearer?


It takes the position that The Lord of the Rings is a literal racist tract, and that the orcs, trolls, goblins, etc were actually caricatures of... slavic peoples.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: jhkim on September 08, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Have you ever read The Last Ringbearer?

It takes the position that The Lord of the Rings is a literal racist tract, and that the orcs, trolls, goblins, etc were actually caricatures of... slavic peoples.
I haven't read it, but my son read it and talked about it with me. As he described it, it is a work of fiction taking the view that The Lord of the Rings is a history written by the victors. From that view, Tolkien's work is racist against orcs, but there's nothing there about real-world slavic people.

Having *fiction* where orcs are good doesn't inherently mean that one thinks Tolkien was racist against real-world people; any more than Tolkien having orcs be evil means that he was racist.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 08, 2020, 04:06:14 PM
I haven't read it, but my son read it and talked about it with me. As he described it, it is a work of fiction taking the view that The Lord of the Rings is a history written by the victors. From that view, Tolkien's work is racist against orcs, but there's nothing there about real-world slavic people.

Having *fiction* where orcs are good doesn't inherently mean that one thinks Tolkien was racist against real-world people; any more than Tolkien having orcs be evil means that he was racist.
I read it. It's actually a pretty good read -- an alternate retelling of LOTR, in the same way Grendel and Eaters of the Dead retold the Beowulf saga.

Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 09, 2020, 12:16:12 PM
I haven't read it, but my son read it and talked about it with me. As he described it, it is a work of fiction taking the view that The Lord of the Rings is a history written by the victors. From that view, Tolkien's work is racist against orcs, but there's nothing there about real-world slavic people.
I don't know if you already know this, but they're not literally orcs in LRB. LRB states that the orcs, goblins, trolls, etc are ordinary human beings whom the Red Book of Westmarch depicted as inhuman monsters.

They're not literally caricatures of slavic peoples, since LotR and LRB are mythical pre-history, but the author was pretty obviously trying to draw an allegory with the Nazi/Soviet conflict of WWII. With Mordor as the Soviets, and the Gondorians as the Nazis. This seems fairly common in the Russian LotR fandom.

Having *fiction* where orcs are good doesn't inherently mean that one thinks Tolkien was racist against real-world people; any more than Tolkien having orcs be evil means that he was racist.
I wasn't trying to imply this. What I meant was is that LRB operates from the conceit that the Red Book is a literally racist tract because it depicted human beings as literal monsters to justify their extermination.


I read it. It's actually a pretty good read -- an alternate retelling of LOTR, in the same way Grendel and Eaters of the Dead retold the Beowulf saga.
I think that LRB goes too far in the other direction by depicting Mordor as a completely blameless utopia and several sequences are outright comical as a result (e.g. the "real" account of King Angmar's death).
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 09, 2020, 12:35:27 PM
Get a load of this guy.  Talk about going to great lengths to make absolutely no sense...


https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Why-Do-Orc-Lives-Matter (https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Why-Do-Orc-Lives-Matter)


Okay, to cut through all the chaff...


The way orcs (and other humanoid races) are depicted is identical to rhetoric used throughout history to demonize the "other", thereby justifying killing them and taking their stuff. This may potentially make some players who are members of historically marginalized groups feel uncomfortable because it reminds them of the way their own ancestors were treated, or (in particular unfortunately circumstances) how their ethnic group is treated right now.


This isn't a new front in the culture war. The D&D fandom has been discussing this stuff for decades.


D&D is crime fantasy, pure and simple (http://johntynes.com/revland2000/rl_powerkill.html). I'm sure most people are sane enough to understand that engaging in ethnic cleansing in a game context doesn't equate to promoting ethnic cleansing in real life. It's just that humans are blood-crazed psychopaths by nature and we need an outlet for that.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 09, 2020, 01:55:58 PM
I think that LRB goes too far in the other direction by depicting Mordor as a completely blameless utopia and several sequences are outright comical as a result (e.g. the "real" account of King Angmar's death).
Well, dark humor is like food; not everyone gets it :)


Although rewriting Aragorn into a sociopath whose sole purpose is to claim the Gondorian throne, come hell or high water, was kind of disturbing.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 09, 2020, 04:00:25 PM
Get a load of this guy.  Talk about going to great lengths to make absolutely no sense...


https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Why-Do-Orc-Lives-Matter (https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Why-Do-Orc-Lives-Matter)


Okay, to cut through all the chaff...


The way orcs (and other humanoid races) are depicted is identical to rhetoric used throughout history to demonize the "other", thereby justifying killing them and taking their stuff. This may potentially make some players who are members of historically marginalized groups feel uncomfortable because it reminds them of the way their own ancestors were treated, or (in particular unfortunately circumstances) how their ethnic group is treated right now.


This isn't a new front in the culture war. The D&D fandom has been discussing this stuff for decades.


D&D is crime fantasy, pure and simple (http://johntynes.com/revland2000/rl_powerkill.html). I'm sure most people are sane enough to understand that engaging in ethnic cleansing in a game context doesn't equate to promoting ethnic cleansing in real life. It's just that humans are blood-crazed psychopaths by nature and we need an outlet for that.


And to cut through that chaff, opponents in D&D are, AFAIK, always guilty of some offense that warrants conflict.
Orcs are raiding human settlements, Giants are attacking towns on the borders of a kingdom, the Drow... yeah. Not nice people.







Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 09, 2020, 08:11:12 PM
Get a load of this guy.  Talk about going to great lengths to make absolutely no sense...


https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Why-Do-Orc-Lives-Matter (https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Why-Do-Orc-Lives-Matter)


Okay, to cut through all the chaff...


The way orcs (and other humanoid races) are depicted is identical to rhetoric used throughout history to demonize the "other", thereby justifying killing them and taking their stuff. This may potentially make some players who are members of historically marginalized groups feel uncomfortable because it reminds them of the way their own ancestors were treated, or (in particular unfortunately circumstances) how their ethnic group is treated right now.


This isn't a new front in the culture war. The D&D fandom has been discussing this stuff for decades.


D&D is crime fantasy, pure and simple (http://johntynes.com/revland2000/rl_powerkill.html). I'm sure most people are sane enough to understand that engaging in ethnic cleansing in a game context doesn't equate to promoting ethnic cleansing in real life. It's just that humans are blood-crazed psychopaths by nature and we need an outlet for that.


And to cut through that chaff, opponents in D&D are, AFAIK, always guilty of some offense that warrants conflict.
Orcs are raiding human settlements, Giants are attacking towns on the borders of a kingdom, the Drow... yeah. Not nice people.
It’s a game about violence. You’re making up justifications to kill fictional people and loot their corpses. Justifications that, quite frankly, you don’t actually need. You don’t need a reason to kill people beyond them being bags of XP and loot.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 09, 2020, 08:31:37 PM
Get a load of this guy.  Talk about going to great lengths to make absolutely no sense...


https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Why-Do-Orc-Lives-Matter (https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/Why-Do-Orc-Lives-Matter)


Okay, to cut through all the chaff...


The way orcs (and other humanoid races) are depicted is identical to rhetoric used throughout history to demonize the "other", thereby justifying killing them and taking their stuff. This may potentially make some players who are members of historically marginalized groups feel uncomfortable because it reminds them of the way their own ancestors were treated, or (in particular unfortunately circumstances) how their ethnic group is treated right now.


This isn't a new front in the culture war. The D&D fandom has been discussing this stuff for decades.


D&D is crime fantasy, pure and simple (http://johntynes.com/revland2000/rl_powerkill.html). I'm sure most people are sane enough to understand that engaging in ethnic cleansing in a game context doesn't equate to promoting ethnic cleansing in real life. It's just that humans are blood-crazed psychopaths by nature and we need an outlet for that.


And to cut through that chaff, opponents in D&D are, AFAIK, always guilty of some offense that warrants conflict.
Orcs are raiding human settlements, Giants are attacking towns on the borders of a kingdom, the Drow... yeah. Not nice people.
It’s a game about violence. You’re making up justifications to kill fictional people and loot their corpses. Justifications that, quite frankly, you don’t actually need. You don’t need a reason to kill people beyond them being bags of XP and loot.


Your myopic view of the game is incorrect. There's a lot more to RPGs than violence. Even D&D.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Shasarak on September 09, 2020, 10:17:36 PM
D&D is crime fantasy, pure and simple (http://johntynes.com/revland2000/rl_powerkill.html). I'm sure most people are sane enough to understand that engaging in ethnic cleansing in a game context doesn't equate to promoting ethnic cleansing in real life. It's just that humans are blood-crazed psychopaths by nature and we need an outlet for that.
You can lock hundreds of humans that dont know each other in a tightly enclosed metal tube of an airplane for hours at a time and have an almost certain chance that everyone will arrive at their destination alive and intact.
Try that with any other animal and see which one is the "blood-crazed psychopath by nature"

Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 10, 2020, 08:15:54 AM
A campaign setting in which goblinoids are mistreated due to their heritage and not because they have a bad habit of attacking other demihumans might be interesting. For some reason it reminds me of an urban fantasy setting I was tooling with.


Orcs in D&D are not Orks in Shadowrun, though. D&D orcs have a long history of raiding, slaving, and being poor neighbors, much like their goblinoid brethren.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 10, 2020, 09:04:59 AM
Here’s an idea to try on for size:


Orcs are white people. Orcs steal, pillage, enslave, rape, etc just like white people do. At least according to the racist stereotypes circulating among the woke.


That’s why For example some modern depictions of orcs feature features like red hair and blue tattoos, just like stereotypes of ancient Celts.


If you’re using orcs for target practice, then you’re an anti-white racist.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 10, 2020, 10:49:41 AM
I can't help it if the woke crowd is made up of paste eating retards. There's only so much I can do.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Zirunel on September 10, 2020, 03:24:50 PM
45 years ago, before it occurred to anyone that there might be anything problematic or colonialist about rpgs, Barker came up with a very new take for Tekumel. There are no orcs or goblinoids of course, but  the closest equivalents are the Hluss and the Ssu, the latter dubbed "The Enemies of Man." They are not " evil" in any real sense, just utterly alien and utterly inimical to humans. There is no negotiation or "getting along" (in fact, no communication of any sort). They must eliminate humans from the planet or humans must eliminate them.


So far so good, "inimical" is a useful approach for conflict between rpg enemies without introducing moral concepts like good or evil.


But what is really interesting is that even back then, Barker somehow anticipated this whole colonialism thing and confronted it head-on. The Hluss and the Ssu really ARE the indigenous inhabitants of Tekumel, the rightful owners of the planet. And then humans arrived, colonized the place, terraformed it beyond recognition, and confined them to reservations. Until the cataclysm, when the indigenes burst out of their enclaves. Now they want their planet back.


There's no hand-wringing about whether humans might actually be ruthless colonists, they very explicitly are (or were once)! But since the cataclysm, humans have nowhere else to go, so humans, Hluss and Ssu are stuck to battle it out with each other now. The moral questions are acknowledged, but have kinda been overtaken by events.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 10, 2020, 03:57:17 PM
I can't help it if the woke crowd is made up of paste eating retards. There's only so much I can do.


My point is that orcs are lazy unnecessary stand-ins for human beings in general. Rather than introducing a real human group like Mongols, Huns, or Germanic barbarians and getting mired in moral quandaries like "should we murder the women and children too?", RPGs use orcs as (supposedly) guilt-free targets. Because, you know, it's an entertainment game and not an anthropological dissertation.

Maybe I watched too much Beastmaster on TV in the early 2000s, but I kinda wish we had more pacifist heroes who don't need to leave mountains of bodies in their wake.


45 years ago, before it occurred to anyone that there might be anything problematic or colonialist about rpgs, Barker came up with a very new take for Tekumel. There are no orcs or goblinoids of course, but  the closest equivalents are the Hluss and the Ssu, the latter dubbed "The Enemies of Man." They are not " evil" in any real sense, just utterly alien and utterly inimical to humans. There is no negotiation or "getting along" (in fact, no communication of any sort). They must eliminate humans from the planet or humans must eliminate them.


So far so good, "inimical" is a useful approach for conflict between rpg enemies without introducing moral concepts like good or evil.


But what is really interesting is that even back then, Barker somehow anticipated this whole colonialism thing and confronted it head-on. The Hluss and the Ssu really ARE the indigenous inhabitants of Tekumel, the rightful owners of the planet. And then humans arrived, colonized the place, terraformed it beyond recognition, and confined them to reservations. Until the cataclysm, when the indigenes burst out of their enclaves. Now they want their planet back.


There's no hand-wringing about whether humans might actually be ruthless colonists, they very explicitly are (or were once)! But since the cataclysm, humans have nowhere else to go, so humans, Hluss and Ssu are stuck to battle it out with each other now. The moral questions are acknowledged, but have kinda been overtaken by events.
That's fairly clever, all things considered.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Zirunel on September 10, 2020, 05:29:18 PM
That's fairly clever, all things considered.


I know, right? I mean, in the context of fantasy/sf literature of the day it's not that novel, but in an rpg , 45 years ago, as a rationale for "why are monsters evil/ hate us, and why do we hate them," it's fairly unique.


I'd say it was innovative, but since Tekumel was the first published rpg setting ever, "innovative" seems like a weak descriptor. Everything about it was innovative.


even so, It's still amazing how much it anticipated things that have become controversial all these decades later.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Shasarak on September 10, 2020, 10:43:54 PM
Here’s an idea to try on for size:


Orcs are white people. Orcs steal, pillage, enslave, rape, etc just like white people do. At least according to the racist stereotypes circulating among the woke.


That’s why For example some modern depictions of orcs feature features like red hair and blue tattoos, just like stereotypes of ancient Celts.


If you’re using orcs for target practice, then you’re an anti-white racist.
That reminds me of the joke about how Ancient Celts hated the other Ancient Celts more then any other type of Orc, I mean race.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 11, 2020, 10:39:16 AM
So you're saying... SJW's project their own internal self-loathing into their gaming? Whuuut?


But then how do they enjoy movies? comics? sex? life?... oh shit. Is that what this is all about?


/sarcasm for the uptake challenged.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 11, 2020, 11:16:12 AM
So you're saying... SJW's project their own internal self-loathing into their gaming? Whuuut?


But then how do they enjoy movies? comics? sex? life?... oh shit. Is that what this is all about?


/sarcasm for the uptake challenged.
While it may be heavily obfuscated, most Woke arguments are descended from valid academic analysis.

Interpreting orcs as representations of white colonizers is entirely valid. If they can be compared to Mongol and Hun colonizers, then they can be compared any colonizers across human history.

All of the evil humanoid races are supposed to be the Other. They exhibit only all of the bad behaviors we see in humans. They exist only as obstacles for the heroes to overcome.

This basic fact doesn't change depending on the ethnicity of the players. The only thing that changes is what the Other corresponds to in real life based on the player's cultural context.

For Anglo-Americans, that Other is a mishmash of all of the groups that have been historically oppressed in the United States. The Native Americans, the African slaves, the Irish immigrants... For Israelis, the Other is Palestinians and other Arabs. For the Woke, the Other is white.

It's all well and good when you use humanoids as simply a generic threat for the heroes to overcome. When American writers gave them societies that were repurposed pro-colonialist screed in order to clumsily justify using them as target practice, things got creepy and gross real fast.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 11, 2020, 12:15:30 PM
So you're saying... SJW's project their own internal self-loathing into their gaming? Whuuut?


But then how do they enjoy movies? comics? sex? life?... oh shit. Is that what this is all about?


/sarcasm for the uptake challenged.
While it may be heavily obfuscated, most Woke arguments are descended from valid academic analysis.

Interpreting orcs as representations of white colonizers is entirely valid. If they can be compared to Mongol and Hun colonizers, then they can be compared any colonizers across human history.

All of the evil humanoid races are supposed to be the Other. They exhibit only all of the bad behaviors we see in humans. They exist only as obstacles for the heroes to overcome.

This basic fact doesn't change depending on the ethnicity of the players. The only thing that changes is what the Other corresponds to in real life based on the player's cultural context.

For Anglo-Americans, that Other is a mishmash of all of the groups that have been historically oppressed in the United States. The Native Americans, the African slaves, the Irish immigrants... For Israelis, the Other is Palestinians and other Arabs. For the Woke, the Other is white.

It's all well and good when you use humanoids as simply a generic threat for the heroes to overcome. When American writers gave them societies that were repurposed pro-colonialist screed in order to clumsily justify using them as target practice, things got creepy and gross real fast.


I think it's more like social justice free association. Like saying Watto is a jewish caricature because he has a big nose and likes money. Says quite a bit more about the claimant than the claim, IMO.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 11, 2020, 03:11:15 PM
I think it's more like social justice free association. Like saying Watto is a jewish caricature because he has a big nose and likes money. Says quite a bit more about the claimant than the claim, IMO.

Okay, then how many points of similarity should a fictional species have with a racist caricature/stereotype before you'll lend credence to the critique? Three? Five? Twenty? (Also, Watto was apparently supposed to be an Italian stereotype (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/192774/13918), not Jewish.)

You're argument boils down to: "You noticed that a fictional character bears a fair resemblance to racist caricatures? Then you're the real racist!" I think that goes too far in the other direction. Our fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum. If a fictional character closely resembles a racist caricature, then it likely that they were inspired by that caricature even if the creator didn't understand what they were doing. Somebody who is actually racist is going to have a lot more red flags in their work, whereas somebody who is merely imitating things without understanding their context will probably have flags that contradict a purely racist interpretation and it is pretty easy for somebody in the later position to simply be unaware that they are giving mixed signals. While it is possible to read caricature where none exists (https://theconversation.com/how-hollywoods-alien-and-predator-movies-reinforce-anti-black-racism-127088), it is equally possible to ignore caricature that does exist. (https://thekenpire.com/2015/03/17/terra-formars-is-an-obscenely-racist-manga-and-anime-series-but-its-sort-of-hilarious/)

The aliens and predator are pretty obviously neither deliberately nor subconsciously inspired by racial caricature. The aliens are literally taken from the artist's nightmares and are far too Freudian, biomechanical, and eerily beautiful to be limited to a purely racialized discourse. The predator seems actively designed to subvert racist expectations, as he dons supposedly "tribal" aesthetic while utilizing highly advanced technology and is ironically defeated by low-tech solutions. It stretches disbelief beyond the breaking point to argue that they are intentionally or subconsciously intended to evoke blackness. Are we talking "blackness" in the sense of Ancient Egypt's Nile-fertilized soil? "Blackness" in the sense of chthonic deities and primeval goddesses of night?

The terraformars are pretty obviously a racist caricature and the plot of the comic is clearly some kind of ultra-conservative quasi-fascist tract (and possibly deliberate trolling). It's trivially easy to make a list of their similarities to racist caricature and argue that they're an intentional racist caricature designed to offend people (e.g. unrealistically human-like visage, afro-textured hair, swarthy skin, hold pistols sideways, wear bling, chase after our women, stereotyped as strong and muscular, build pyramids, constantly derided as unintelligent savages despite evidence to the contrary, live on land that Earth wants to colonize). This should be blatantly obvious to most people, but the fans are bending over backwards to argue that it totally isn't blackface when it clearly is (https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/2tr331/how_did_you_feel_about_the_alleged_racism_in/).

That's the real problem with political extremes like Wokeness. Their rhetoric descends from sane schools of thought, but the problem is that the woke cry wolf so often that when there really is a wolf then nobody notices as they're being eaten.

With orcs and goblins and drow and whatever, you can't easily argue that they evoke racist caricatures because so many authors use them and in so many wildly different ways. Some depictions are ugly as sin, while others look like supermodels. But that doesn't mean people can't make mistakes and unintentionally evoke racial caricature (including of, well, white folks), particularly when you imitate something written in less enlightened times. I mean, the original pulp fiction genre alone was full of some really nasty attitudes towards women, black folks, and so forth.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 11, 2020, 05:31:23 PM
I think it's more like social justice free association. Like saying Watto is a jewish caricature because he has a big nose and likes money. Says quite a bit more about the claimant than the claim, IMO.

Okay, then how many points of similarity should a fictional species have with a racist caricature/stereotype before you'll lend credence to the critique? Three? Five? Twenty? (Also, Watto was apparently supposed to be an Italian stereotype (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/192774/13918), not Jewish.)


It is perfectly fine to ask the question. But what academia today does is grant a moral answer to their own question. Worse, the impetus of such a question tends to be a priori assumed as a perjorative.


When there is plenty of examples where it's not. See the "N-word" in hip-hop circles.


Where it becomes idiotic is when academics, here in the west, conveniently ascribe their perjorative assumptions ONLY to western ideals. While in Asian cultures, South American cultures - hell in basically ALL cultures, this phenomenon of colloquial use of names that identify people based on cultural stereotypes, both positively and negatively are common in use. Greeks call people 'skilo' "dog" ALL THE FUCKING TIME - it's colloquially used as their 'n-word' to blacks. It's also used affectionately to their friends. "Sup skilo." Same with calling people 'poutso' which is "cock". I've seen guy fight over it. I call people 'pouts' all the time colloquially (habit I picked up living among Greeks).


And I know it's true in my filipino family. It's true among blacks in my family. I know it's true among my hispanic friends.


Where it's verboten is leftist white people that want to decide that any word that can be taken free of intentional context as negative has to be taken in the WORST possible light. And it's only directed at white people and now whatever falls under the umbrella of "whiteness".


So it takes little effort to see how Leftist white-people look at orcs, Watto, or anything else and reflexively do this.


You're argument boils down to: "You noticed that a fictional character bears a fair resemblance to racist caricatures? Then you're the real racist!" I think that goes too far in the other direction. Our fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum. If a fictional character closely resembles a racist caricature, then it likely that they were inspired by that caricature even if the creator didn't understand what they were doing. Somebody who is actually racist is going to have a lot more red flags in their work, whereas somebody who is merely imitating things without understanding their context will probably have flags that contradict a purely racist interpretation and it is pretty easy for somebody in the later position to simply be unaware that they are giving mixed signals. While it is possible to read caricature where none exists (https://theconversation.com/how-hollywoods-alien-and-predator-movies-reinforce-anti-black-racism-127088), it is equally possible to ignore caricature that does exist. (https://thekenpire.com/2015/03/17/terra-formars-is-an-obscenely-racist-manga-and-anime-series-but-its-sort-of-hilarious/)
No it goes down to ones inability to accept that cultural stereotypes are real for a reason. And they will remain so as long as the stereotype serves remains true in some elemental way to that culture until that culture changes. I literally see NO ONE these days making Polack jokes today, because Poland is kicking ass as culture. But when I was growing up in the 70's... they were still a thing.At no point does it implicitly mean someone is racist by engaging with a stereotype. Leftists have used this idiotic tactic by again, assuming the worst, in order to create the division necessary for their ulterior goals. By taking this tactic it serves only to divide people rather than allow them to accept another *despite* those stereotypes. That was the point of Archie Bunker in the 70's - which was an entire show based on stereotypes, not only black ones, but duh, white ones too.Only in Western European culture will you see the accepting of stereotypes in a national construct. *Because* we already fought those battles and spilled blood over it and hammered out the rules. At no point does one group get to demand that another sub-group accept another as full-equals within that group. But we sure as fuck can stand together under the banner of mutual rules of engagement that allow us to freely associate.Try that shit in China. Go there and tell them you're Chinese and watch what they say to you. You know like the freaks in America do when they go to Japan with their fucking waifu outfits and dyed hair. Polite Japanese society look at them as the fucking weirdos they are. And while welcoming and polite, they don't think these people are remotely Japanese.Which is the real issue - it's pretending a caricature is real and there being no capacity (apparently) at perceiving the difference).So who precisely made this connection that Orcs are black people? It certainly wasn't a non-leftist.
[size=78%]The aliens and predator are pretty obviously neither deliberately nor subconsciously inspired by racial caricature. The aliens are literally taken from the artist's nightmares and are far too Freudian, biomechanical, and eerily beautiful to be limited to a purely racialized discourse. The predator seems actively designed to subvert racist expectations, as he dons supposedly "tribal" aesthetic while utilizing highly advanced technology and is ironically defeated by low-tech solutions. It stretches disbelief beyond the breaking point to argue that they are intentionally or subconsciously intended to evoke blackness. Are we talking "blackness" in the sense of Ancient Egypt's Nile-fertilized soil? "Blackness" in the sense of chthonic deities and primeval goddesses of night?[/size]


This incessant need to *find* racism everywhere is the issue.


And yet we have people commenting that Darth Vader is representative of black oppression because he is clad in literal black, but then is killed. And then black people are further pissed on by "removing his blackness" and revealing him to be redeemed as an old white man.


More leftist drivel.

[size=78%]The terraformars are pretty obviously a racist caricature and the plot of the comic is clearly some kind of ultra-conservative quasi-fascist tract (and possibly deliberate trolling). It's trivially easy to make a list of their similarities to racist caricature and argue that they're an intentional racist caricature designed to offend people (e.g. unrealistically human-like visage, afro-textured hair, swarthy skin, hold pistols sideways, wear bling, chase after our women, stereotyped as strong and muscular, build pyramids, constantly derided as unintelligent savages despite evidence to the contrary, live on land that Earth wants to colonize). This should be blatantly obvious to most people, but the fans are bending over backwards to argue that it totally isn't blackface when it clearly is (https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/2tr331/how_did_you_feel_about_the_alleged_racism_in/).

That's the real problem with political extremes like Wokeness. Their rhetoric descends from sane schools of thought, but the problem is that the woke cry wolf so often that when there really is a wolf then nobody notices as they're being eaten.

With orcs and goblins and drow and whatever, you can't easily argue that they evoke racist caricatures because so many authors use them and in so many wildly different ways. Some depictions are ugly as sin, while others look like supermodels. But that doesn't mean people can't make mistakes and unintentionally evoke racial caricature (including of, well, white folks), particularly when you imitate something written in less enlightened times. I mean, the original pulp fiction genre alone was full of some really nasty attitudes towards women, black folks, and so forth.
[/size]


And so maybe it isn't really racism? As much as it is a product designed to appeal to what the market will accept as entertainment and nothing more? Lefitist spend a lot of time concerned with what they pretend other people think. And then want to try to control and clear the land of everything *they* don't control in order to assuage their desire to control others to "protect" themselves.


It's an mad spiral inward by projecting their madness outward. This is how they are unable to discern truth. Pathological post-modernism free of actual critical thought. That is how we got here.


It's stupid.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 11, 2020, 05:51:53 PM
I think it's more like social justice free association. Like saying Watto is a jewish caricature because he has a big nose and likes money. Says quite a bit more about the claimant than the claim, IMO.

Okay, then how many points of similarity should a fictional species have with a racist caricature/stereotype before you'll lend credence to the critique? Three? Five? Twenty? (Also, Watto was apparently supposed to be an Italian stereotype (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/192774/13918), not Jewish.)




I don't put a number on it. I'd take the critique seriously if it had any insight past "Star Wars is racist!" (But only in the Critical Theory definition of racism) Now the Oscars have diversity quotas and people in Hollywood are talking much more about the social justice version of diversity (as defined by Critical Theory) instead of the damn quality of the films.

Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 11, 2020, 10:12:34 PM
But that's the whole point of "Critical Race Theory" - it's a nice big umbrella that has very little rigor attached to it (one might say it fails on its own name in that the use of "criticism" isn't really well formed). It sounds important. It pretends it is important. And it attracts the deracinated cultural morons of modern Western European culture to come join in this new novelty of non-thinking presenting itself as the opposite.

So now you have a nifty Brand Label(tm) to make people that have no real critical-thinking skills themselves, to march in line to without actually having to do any thinking for themselves. Queue the solipsistic nature of cult-psychology and watch the obvious outcome.


 
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 11, 2020, 10:48:23 PM
But that's the whole point of "Critical Race Theory" - it's a nice big umbrella that has very little rigor attached to it (one might say it fails on its own name in that the use of "criticism" isn't really well formed). It sounds important. It pretends it is important. And it attracts the deracinated cultural morons of modern Western European culture to come join in this new novelty of non-thinking presenting itself as the opposite.

So now you have a nifty Brand Label(tm) to make people that have no real critical-thinking skills themselves, to march in line to without actually having to do any thinking for themselves. Queue the solipsistic nature of cult-psychology and watch the obvious outcome.


Your previous reply blew mine out of the water. I felt I should at least make an effort at a reply, but you were a tough act to follow.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 12, 2020, 08:49:29 AM
And I think we have reached the point where you guys have been so desensitized that you are unwilling to see fucked up shit when it does appear because you think it’s ceding ground to the critical race theorists/race supremacists.


When useful idiots are saying that giant penis monsters are really a metaphor for black people, then it becomes much easier to dismiss far more substantial allegations.


If I didn’t know any better than I’d say this was an elaborate plot by race supremacists (or trolls) to bring caricatures back in style under the guise of fiction.

Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 12, 2020, 03:32:57 PM
And I think we have reached the point where you guys have been so desensitized that you are unwilling to see fucked up shit when it does appear because you think it’s ceding ground to the critical race theorists/race supremacists.


When useful idiots are saying that giant penis monsters are really a metaphor for black people, then it becomes much easier to dismiss far more substantial allegations.


If I didn’t know any better than I’d say this was an elaborate plot by race supremacists (or trolls) to bring caricatures back in style under the guise of fiction.


Well, that was petulant.


Like I said, I'm willing to concede that, say, orcs in Tolkien rely on "the other" tropes, like using scimitars and being "swarthy".
What I'm not going to concede is the critical theory nonsense that this is all systemic, and therefore we all have to be good social justice "allies" and confess our white cis het privilige sin of racism and white supremacy.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 12, 2020, 04:09:24 PM
And I think we have reached the point where you guys have been so desensitized that you are unwilling to see fucked up shit when it does appear because you think it’s ceding ground to the critical race theorists/race supremacists.


When useful idiots are saying that giant penis monsters are really a metaphor for black people, then it becomes much easier to dismiss far more substantial allegations.


If I didn’t know any better than I’d say this was an elaborate plot by race supremacists (or trolls) to bring caricatures back in style under the guise of fiction.


Well, that was petulant.


Like I said, I'm willing to concede that, say, orcs in Tolkien rely on "the other" tropes, like using scimitars and being "swarthy".
What I'm not going to concede is the critical theory nonsense that this is all systemic, and therefore we all have to be good social justice "allies" and confess our white cis het privilige sin of racism and white supremacy.


Petulant?


I am critical of critical theory. Critical theorists openly advocate for segregation. It’s like a secret plot by white supremacists or something.


On the other end, I’ve seen people arguing that blatant racial caricatures aren’t blatant racial caricatures. Which also seems like a secret plot by white supremacists.


I live in clown world.


I’m seriously wondering right now if I could get away with writing racist propaganda by replacing the characters with fantasy races. Like, if I wrote a story that’s actually about the KKK lynching black people a la Birth of a Nation, but changed it to humans heroically killing orcs. Would people actually defend that if they didn’t know it was written to troll the audience?
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 12, 2020, 04:15:21 PM
And I think we have reached the point where you guys have been so desensitized that you are unwilling to see fucked up shit when it does appear because you think it’s ceding ground to the critical race theorists/race supremacists.


When useful idiots are saying that giant penis monsters are really a metaphor for black people, then it becomes much easier to dismiss far more substantial allegations.


If I didn’t know any better than I’d say this was an elaborate plot by race supremacists (or trolls) to bring caricatures back in style under the guise of fiction.


Well, that was petulant.


Like I said, I'm willing to concede that, say, orcs in Tolkien rely on "the other" tropes, like using scimitars and being "swarthy".
What I'm not going to concede is the critical theory nonsense that this is all systemic, and therefore we all have to be good social justice "allies" and confess our white cis het privilige sin of racism and white supremacy.


Petulant?


I am critical of critical theory. Critical theorists openly advocate for segregation. It’s like a secret plot by white supremacists or something.


On the other end, I’ve seen people arguing that blatant racial caricatures aren’t blatant racial caricatures. Which also seems like a secret plot by white supremacists.


I live in clown world.


I’m seriously wondering right now if I could get away with writing racist propaganda by replacing the characters with fantasy races. Like, if I wrote a story that’s actually about the KKK lynching black people a la Birth of a Nation, but changed it to humans heroically killing orcs. Would people actually defend that if they didn’t know it was written to troll the audience?


Heroic there is a loaded term. People take lots of media at face value. Like how the film Starship Troopers is a really terrible parody of fascicm, because the bugs are literally killing machines that don't parley or show any concept of mercy.
So it depends on how you write your story.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 12, 2020, 07:32:04 PM
I am critical of critical theory. Critical theorists openly advocate for segregation. It’s like a secret plot by white supremacists or something.

On the other end, I’ve seen people arguing that blatant racial caricatures aren’t blatant racial caricatures. Which also seems like a secret plot by white supremacists.

I live in clown world.

I’m seriously wondering right now if I could get away with writing racist propaganda by replacing the characters with fantasy races. Like, if I wrote a story that’s actually about the KKK lynching black people a la Birth of a Nation, but changed it to humans heroically killing orcs. Would people actually defend that if they didn’t know it was written to troll the audience?


So your example is you implicitly using black people as "orcs". YOU are intending that. YOU are being explicit in what only you perceive - which is orcs=black people. WHY would anyone else think that? Jesus, how did you sit through Lord of Rings with this view of reality?


Yes it sounds like you're living in a clown-world of your own creation.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 12, 2020, 08:27:47 PM
Heroic there is a loaded term. People take lots of media at face value. Like how the film Starship Troopers is a really terrible parody of fascicm, because the bugs are literally killing machines that don't parley or show any concept of mercy.
So it depends on how you write your story.

Indeed, it can be annoyingly difficult to distinguish satire from propaganda. Which plays right into the difficulty people can have distinguishing fucked up messages in the first place.

Anime like Terra Formars and Goblin Slayers are on their face exploitative fantasies of gruesome violence. Their messages are simplistic: you must kill the enemy because the enemy is inherently evil and/or inferior.

These works were not intended to stand up to any kind of analysis. If you try to analyze beyond being brain-dead violent entertainment for sheltered people who have never experienced the horror of real-life violence, then it quickly deteriorates into what you can only reconstruct as either fascist propaganda or failed satire thereof. Along with a possibly fetishistic fixation on imagery of women being raped.

The same holds true for D&D. We shouldn't kid ourselves: it's a children's game with about as much depth as a typical violent video game. It was not designed to stand up to rigorous analysis nor to hold any philosophical value beyond face value.

So if you analyze the typical trope of teh good adventurers killing teh evil orcs with standard academic rigor, then you inevitably end up with comparisons to colonialism and genocide at some point. Not because Gygax was intentionally trying to write a tract promoting genocide, but because he presumably grew up watching Westerns on TV, reading pulp fiction, etc and just imitated that without understanding their original cultural context (i.e. westerns, pulps, etc were really racist/sexist/other -ists).

What I don't understand is why anybody would try to deny this. That's super annoying. Acknowledging that media like D&D reproduce what is essentially colonialist imagery doesn't make D&D bad or you bad for playing it anymore than playing Hatred makes anyone a bad person.

But what I find the most annoying is a recurring underlying assumption that fiction can't or shouldn't have any deep meanings or messages applicable to reality. It's just supposed to be surface level entertainment... at least until anybody criticizes it. I'm really surprised by how vehemently weaboos can argue that something is simultaneous deep and yet undeserving of analysis/criticism.

Not everybody who consumes media will do so with their brain turned off. If you don't want lots of people of varying political persuasions to independently read messages that you never intended, like sexism or racism or fascism, then you shouldn't setup your work in such a way that lends itself so easily to such interpretations.

So your example is you implicitly using black people as "orcs". YOU are intending that. YOU are being explicit in what only you perceive - which is orcs=black people. WHY would anyone else think that? Jesus, how did you sit through Lord of Rings with this view of reality?
You're completely misunderstanding my point and putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying that orcs are black people. I do not believe or perceive that. At least in the Lord of the Rings, orcs bear a much closer resemblance to Huns or Mongols in their story role.

What I am saying is that I strongly suspect that if I wrote an explicit racist tract (not authentically, but as trolling) but changed all references to real races with fantasy races, then my audience would be split between people who notice the (here intentional) parallels to racist rhetoric and those who argue that no such parallels exist because you can't be racist against fictional creatures.

Have you ever read The Iron Dream? It discusses this sort of thing. The premise is that Hitler never becomes Fuhrer, but instead becomes a scifi author. He writes scifi that is thinly-veiled racist propaganda: the non-human villains of his book are Russian caricatures ruled by Jewish caricatures. Within the story itself, critics note a resemblance between his story and real caricature but dismiss it for being unrealistic.

That sort of thing I see time and time again in modern media discourses. In much the same way that the SST movie is indistinguishable as propaganda vs satire, a lot of people argue over whether fiction indistinguishable from -ist tracts is actually -ist. Pointing out similarities between the media we consume and -ist rhetoric sends people into fits of apoplexy.

That really frustrates me.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Alathon on September 12, 2020, 09:43:33 PM
Indeed, it can be annoyingly difficult to distinguish satire from propaganda. Which plays right into the difficulty people can have distinguishing fucked up messages in the first place.

Anime like Terra Formars and Goblin Slayers are on their face exploitative fantasies of gruesome violence. Their messages are simplistic: you must kill the enemy because the enemy is inherently evil and/or inferior.

These works were not intended to stand up to any kind of analysis. If you try to analyze beyond being brain-dead violent entertainment for sheltered people who have never experienced the horror of real-life violence, then it quickly deteriorates into what you can only reconstruct as either fascist propaganda or failed satire thereof. Along with a possibly fetishistic fixation on imagery of women being raped.


...

But what I find the most annoying is a recurring underlying assumption that fiction can't or shouldn't have any deep meanings or messages applicable to reality. It's just supposed to be surface level entertainment... at least until anybody criticizes it. I'm really surprised by how vehemently weaboos can argue that something is simultaneous deep and yet undeserving of analysis/criticism.

Not everybody who consumes media will do so with their brain turned off. If you don't want lots of people of varying political persuasions to independently read messages that you never intended, like sexism or racism or fascism, then you shouldn't setup your work in such a way that lends itself so easily to such interpretations.


Goblin Slayer is superficially a fantasy/D&D/action anime.  It is also a story of a traumatized man who adopted the ways of his assailants.  He became the goblin to goblins (in his own words, even!), differentiated not in spirit but merely in capacity -- as a human he is capable of more, has better tools, and has better allies.  His peers warn his first party member away from him, knowing he ain't right.  When he dies, he sees a goblin asking him cliche riddles.

The higher level story is about the party members and childhood friend who strive to drag him away from insanity.  At least going by the anime, at the end of the first season, there are hints that they had some limited measure of success.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 13, 2020, 12:17:41 AM
You're completely misunderstanding my point and putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying that orcs are black people. I do not believe or perceive that. At least in the Lord of the Rings, orcs bear a much closer resemblance to Huns or Mongols in their story role.


But that is precisely what SJW's do publicly. Whether they actually believe it or not is irrelevant. It's become the doctrine under which they engage with *everyone* else. Maybe... just *maybe* orcs are just what the fairy tale demanded?


The cigar in the story might be an actual cigar, not a repressed phallic trigger denoting ones impotence as it lay there half-used in the ashtray. No, it's just a half-smoked cigar.


I did not misunderstand you at all. I'm saying the premise and question is perfectly fine if it's an honest discussion. If not for the fact that as you point out below (which is the only obvious conclusion that one can get to without diving over the cliff of stupid insanity)... SJW's EQUATE WORDS WITH ACTIONS. So whether YOU intend it or not, to the morons that have ruined pretty much all pop-culture and are currently well on their way to undermining all other cultural endeavors - they will *always* treat it with the worst possible view. Effectively removing any intent that anyone has when making a claim or creating content, as long as it serves the ulterior purposes of the Woke Cult.

What I am saying is that I strongly suspect that if I wrote an explicit racist tract (not authentically, but as trolling) but changed all references to real races with fantasy races, then my audience would be split between people who notice the (here intentional) parallels to racist rhetoric and those who argue that no such parallels exist because you can't be racist against fictional creatures.


What I'm strongly claiming is that to anyone that's not an *idiot* making such an assumption free of any context of understanding about another's overt biases - and anyone remotely honest with themselves actually interested in critical discussion would not necessarily assume you're intending such. The whole point of these issues are that Woke assholes aren't actually

[/size]1) able to be intellectually honest, because they put their stupid ideology first [size=78%]
[/size]2) They're not really interested AT ALL in the topic at hand. They have ulterior motives to any, and all, interactions that involve only one thing: your submission or erasure. [size=78%]

Have you ever read The Iron Dream? It discusses this sort of thing. The premise is that Hitler never becomes Fuhrer, but instead becomes a scifi author. He writes scifi that is thinly-veiled racist propaganda: the non-human villains of his book are Russian caricatures ruled by Jewish caricatures. Within the story itself, critics note a resemblance between his story and real caricature but dismiss it for being unrealistic.


Whoop-de-fuckin-do. How many works of fiction written by authors have lead directly to what Hitler, in actual history, accomplished? Hitler being a sci-fi author that happens to be an anti-Semite is meaningless to the reality of what Hitler, the dictator and leader of Germany, that *actually* engaged in his pogrom of genocide, did.


It doesn't take a genius to read a work of fiction for what it is. It further is not another person's job to interpret and control how another person is supposed to internalize it. Because it *never* stops there. That's the whole point of free-speech. You counter bad ideas with good ideas, not demonizing for the purposes of censure, or as ultimately Marxists have done in the past: elimination.


So what? Racist literature exists in reality. AND? Is it some magical sin that infects you defacto by having scanned your eyes off it? Seems to me that's not the real problem unless you ascribe to the notion that "words are violence".


Furthermore - Hitler didn't invent anti-antisemitism (newsflash). So even if he were only a sci-fi author... in all likelihood he'd have had a shitty career that went nowhere further than whatever fanbase he was serving. Just like the bullshit fiction produced by Woke retards.

Words are *not* actions. Thoughts are not words. No one has a right to equate the two as actual actions in some punitive manner here in America.

[/size]That sort of thing I see time and time again in modern media discourses. In much the same way that the SST movie is indistinguishable as propaganda vs satire, a lot of people argue over whether fiction indistinguishable from -ist tracts is actually -ist. Pointing out similarities between the media we consume and -ist rhetoric sends people into fits of apoplexy.[size=78%]


[/size]Really? I don't see this being discussed in media much at all. I see it being discussed in forums and chat-rooms. In media I see it being dictated that people like Tolkien, Lovecraft, White People writ-large, anything associated with Greco-Roman culture being told anything having to do with their culture is racist. Any and all engagement with the culture is watered down via "Critical Race Theory" to justify their own self-loathing and hatred for Western Culture (and more specifically caucasians) free of context by any means necessary.[size=78%]


That really frustrates me.


How frustrated can you be? I dunno. Try being an POC like me and watching assholes that don't look like me, that know nothing about the history of their own culture much less mine, patronizingly speaking for me and ALL other non-white cultures as to what I'm allowed to say/not say. And what I'm allowed to think. Worse - then effectively threaten the nation I love and the philosophy it's built on for their own narcissistic ego-driven lunacy, and demonize us for not kowtowing to their bullshit ideology? Yeah that's pretty frustrating - especially when I had nothing to do with these shenannigans.


nah. I'll chill out here in Lone Star, shoulder to shoulder with all the other frustrated Americans and wait to watch the Coasts burn. And if it comes here, well I will kindly put out the warning that it's not a wise idea. But wisdom seems to be a premium among the Woke. So all bets are off.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: David Johansen on September 13, 2020, 08:59:56 PM
Well, good news for the people of America Land, Canada will go down the drain first and who knows? the object might take.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 13, 2020, 09:36:13 PM

If I understand the logic right, then it’s okay to depict ethnic cleansing as long as you depict it happening against fictional creatures. Because it’s impossible to be racist against humanoids.

Besides endorphins, what exactly does one get out of penning ultra violent anti-monster tracts? The sheer amount of glee authors seem to take in describing humanoids as subhuman scum that must be exterminated or trained or whatever is disproportionate, almost fetishized.


Indeed, it can be annoyingly difficult to distinguish satire from propaganda. Which plays right into the difficulty people can have distinguishing fucked up messages in the first place.

Anime like Terra Formars and Goblin Slayers are on their face exploitative fantasies of gruesome violence. Their messages are simplistic: you must kill the enemy because the enemy is inherently evil and/or inferior.

These works were not intended to stand up to any kind of analysis. If you try to analyze beyond being brain-dead violent entertainment for sheltered people who have never experienced the horror of real-life violence, then it quickly deteriorates into what you can only reconstruct as either fascist propaganda or failed satire thereof. Along with a possibly fetishistic fixation on imagery of women being raped.


...

But what I find the most annoying is a recurring underlying assumption that fiction can't or shouldn't have any deep meanings or messages applicable to reality. It's just supposed to be surface level entertainment... at least until anybody criticizes it. I'm really surprised by how vehemently weaboos can argue that something is simultaneous deep and yet undeserving of analysis/criticism.

Not everybody who consumes media will do so with their brain turned off. If you don't want lots of people of varying political persuasions to independently read messages that you never intended, like sexism or racism or fascism, then you shouldn't setup your work in such a way that lends itself so easily to such interpretations.


Goblin Slayer is superficially a fantasy/D&D/action anime.  It is also a story of a traumatized man who adopted the ways of his assailants.  He became the goblin to goblins (in his own words, even!), differentiated not in spirit but merely in capacity -- as a human he is capable of more, has better tools, and has better allies.  His peers warn his first party member away from him, knowing he ain't right.  When he dies, he sees a goblin asking him cliche riddles.

The higher level story is about the party members and childhood friend who strive to drag him away from insanity.  At least going by the anime, at the end of the first season, there are hints that they had some limited measure of success.
Trying to impose any kind of critical reading on Goblin Slayer is inevitably going to run into the fact that it’s misogynistic rape-porn/gore-porn. Making GS himself the real victim, while almost every woman introduced is a nameless disposable sex object stuffed in the fridge... do I really have to explain why that makes the supposed attempts to tackle serious issues fall flat? It’s so fucking tone deaf.


Go visit Ovarit.com if you want to learn how much shit women have to put up with in real life.


We live in a world where sexism, homophobia, racism, blah blah blah are alive and well and causing problems. But the woke crowd blows it out of proportion, desensitizing society to real problems and probably making society more prejudiced overall. That’s what I mean by clown world. One step forward, three steps back.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 14, 2020, 10:05:25 AM

If I understand the logic right, then it’s okay to depict ethnic cleansing as long as you depict it happening against fictional creatures. Because it’s impossible to be racist against humanoids.

Besides endorphins, what exactly does one get out of penning ultra violent anti-monster tracts? The sheer amount of glee authors seem to take in describing humanoids as subhuman scum that must be exterminated or trained or whatever is disproportionate, almost fetishized.


Telling a story well means every event that occurs is used to reinforce some conceit of the character within the context of his setting. It may/may not be a reflection of some bias on the author - but that's not the point. Nor should that be the concern of a reader, unless they have some axe to grind.


Spending time trying to figure out what an author *really* believes in their head, by pretending what they're writing on the page for the purposes of telling a story is a fools game. It is setting an agenda before the telling of a tale. If you *want* read something into a story - you will.


Why does Lothar of the Hill People have such bloody genocidal scenes of him killing orcish invaders to his Hill-Lands? Maybe it's to show the environment he's grown up in? Maybe it's to show his battle-prowess? Maybe it's to show the battle-prowess of his people and how they became such - maybe it was never always this way? Maybe it's because later in the story, these things will matter? Maybe not? The telling is in the tale. And maybe the tale is of zero interest to you as a consumer? Perhaps violence in fiction is anathema to your sensibilities. Maybe Jane Austen is more your jam?


As to what does a writer get out of having such fare in their stories? I can only answer it like this...


I can't imagine Jane Austen writing the Illiad.


There are people that have been in the arena of conflict that fictional violence is just that - fictional violence. And there are those that may have the interest in trying to convey that, in whatever manner, if only as fiction in order to impress the nature of the world upon the reader.


I no more believe that R.E.Howard has been personally in axe-combat with Picts than I believe Tolkien has ever killed demons on mountaintops while sky-diving. But I do believe the dramatic telling of their tales were richer for their characters having done it, because I got to be there with them.


As to what the authors believed about black people in their personal lives - without them telling me literally in their non-fictional writing, or some other account - I have no idea, and I don't really care. If the purpose of their fiction is to tell a tale, it will speak for itself.


As someone that lives with a novel-editor, and happens to be a pretty voracious reader (and writer) in my own right, ideologically driven people tend to rarely be able to pull off fiction very well. Because their ideology is put before their story. And propaganda is almost never fun and enjoyable to read. At best it's saccharine and trite and it's always very obvious.


People with an ideological bent also have a pathological inability to not see any kind of narrative or phenomenon outside of their usually binary view of pro-ideology/anti-ideology. So it makes their Crusades for Purity that much easier to target their projections accordingly.


This is why you have DC Comics authors who re-imagine Aquaman as a gay hispanic teenager that has a romantic coming-of-age story about his homosexual trysts with a male dolphin, whose salary is south of 30k/year angry at Keanu Reeves new comic that is about an immortal warrior trying to find a way to kill himself, whose comic is allegedly very violent - because as she says "Do we need another violent CIS-white male comic?" And is subsequently trying to cancel Keanu...


But the 600K he's made in the first 48-hrs of his kickstarter apparently means we DO need it. Maybe not her, or you. But people like reading stories with action. Been that way since the dawn of fiction...


Again... I couldn't imagine Jane Austen writing the Iliad.


And some people don't/will never get it. And that's okay too.

Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 14, 2020, 11:52:10 AM

If I understand the logic right, then it’s okay to depict ethnic cleansing as long as you depict it happening against fictional creatures. Because it’s impossible to be racist against humanoids.

Besides endorphins, what exactly does one get out of penning ultra violent anti-monster tracts? The sheer amount of glee authors seem to take in describing humanoids as subhuman scum that must be exterminated or trained or whatever is disproportionate, almost fetishized.


Telling a story well means every event that occurs is used to reinforce some conceit of the character within the context of his setting. It may/may not be a reflection of some bias on the author - but that's not the point. Nor should that be the concern of a reader, unless they have some axe to grind.


Spending time trying to figure out what an author *really* believes in their head, by pretending what they're writing on the page for the purposes of telling a story is a fools game. It is setting an agenda before the telling of a tale. If you *want* read something into a story - you will.


Why does Lothar of the Hill People have such bloody genocidal scenes of him killing orcish invaders to his Hill-Lands? Maybe it's to show the environment he's grown up in? Maybe it's to show his battle-prowess? Maybe it's to show the battle-prowess of his people and how they became such - maybe it was never always this way? Maybe it's because later in the story, these things will matter? Maybe not? The telling is in the tale. And maybe the tale is of zero interest to you as a consumer? Perhaps violence in fiction is anathema to your sensibilities. Maybe Jane Austen is more your jam?


As to what does a writer get out of having such fare in their stories? I can only answer it like this...


I can't imagine Jane Austen writing the Illiad.


There are people that have been in the arena of conflict that fictional violence is just that - fictional violence. And there are those that may have the interest in trying to convey that, in whatever manner, if only as fiction in order to impress the nature of the world upon the reader.


I no more believe that R.E.Howard has been personally in axe-combat with Picts than I believe Tolkien has ever killed demons on mountaintops while sky-diving. But I do believe the dramatic telling of their tales were richer for their characters having done it, because I got to be there with them.


As to what the authors believed about black people in their personal lives - without them telling me literally in their non-fictional writing, or some other account - I have no idea, and I don't really care. If the purpose of their fiction is to tell a tale, it will speak for itself.


As someone that lives with a novel-editor, and happens to be a pretty voracious reader (and writer) in my own right, ideologically driven people tend to rarely be able to pull off fiction very well. Because their ideology is put before their story. And propaganda is almost never fun and enjoyable to read. At best it's saccharine and trite and it's always very obvious.


People with an ideological bent also have a pathological inability to not see any kind of narrative or phenomenon outside of their usually binary view of pro-ideology/anti-ideology. So it makes their Crusades for Purity that much easier to target their projections accordingly.


This is why you have DC Comics authors who re-imagine Aquaman as a gay hispanic teenager that has a romantic coming-of-age story about his homosexual trysts with a male dolphin, whose salary is south of 30k/year angry at Keanu Reeves new comic that is about an immortal warrior trying to find a way to kill himself, whose comic is allegedly very violent - because as she says "Do we need another violent CIS-white male comic?" And is subsequently trying to cancel Keanu...


But the 600K he's made in the first 48-hrs of his kickstarter apparently means we DO need it. Maybe not her, or you. But people like reading stories with action. Been that way since the dawn of fiction...


Again... I couldn't imagine Jane Austen writing the Iliad.


And some people don't/will never get it. And that's okay too.

The Iliad didn't take time out to demonize one side as being fundamentally evil subhuman scum by virtue of birth that deserve either extermination or enslavement, or describe the rape and dismemberment of women in fetishistic detail.

I can't imagine Jane Austen writing To Reign in Hell or Elric of Melniboné, either. I can't imagine her writing outside the genre that she wrote within.


By the same token, I can't imagine Homer (or any Greek writer) penning The Lord of the Rings. The Iliad is far more nuanced than most fantasy fiction aside from maybe A Song of Ice and Fire.


All of that feels rather tangential to the fact that humanoids are simply props in violent fantasies and don't lend themselves to fleshing out. It's about as deep as the old television westerns that depicted native americans as simply generic baddies to be gunned down by the heroes, or the action movies that depict the hero mowing down hordes of faceless mooks.

Attempts to flesh them out have resulted in pointlessly elaborate justifications for "they're totes evil and should be killed on sight."

Pointing out the similarities in depersonization between westerns, action movies, fantasy escapades, FPS games, etc does not make me the real racist here.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on September 14, 2020, 12:03:40 PM
Spending time trying to figure out what an author *really* believes in their head, by pretending what they're writing on the page for the purposes of telling a story is a fools game. It is setting an agenda before the telling of a tale. If you *want* read something into a story - you will.
As an aside, the real root of this isn't even justified in literary criticism or teaching.  Rather, it's a direct function of subsidized college degrees in literature such that a host of people found it easy to get a credential saying that they understood literature when in fact they didn't have a whole lot useful to say about the Homer, Jane Austen, or anyone in between.  It is a lot easier to write some bullshit about the author's intentions than it is to try to get inside the sensibility of the story and then go from there.  People don't think about it as much now, because the degree is barely ahead of the various "studies" degrees in perception, but anyone that has done the real work (as I have) can tell you that thoughtful literary exploration is exactly that--work. 

So add to the various other problems of the SJW's that they are both insecure and lazy.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 14, 2020, 12:44:50 PM

If I understand the logic right, then it’s okay to depict ethnic cleansing as long as you depict it happening against fictional creatures. Because it’s impossible to be racist against humanoids.

Besides endorphins, what exactly does one get out of penning ultra violent anti-monster tracts? The sheer amount of glee authors seem to take in describing humanoids as subhuman scum that must be exterminated or trained or whatever is disproportionate, almost fetishized.


Indeed, it can be annoyingly difficult to distinguish satire from propaganda. Which plays right into the difficulty people can have distinguishing fucked up messages in the first place.

Anime like Terra Formars and Goblin Slayers are on their face exploitative fantasies of gruesome violence. Their messages are simplistic: you must kill the enemy because the enemy is inherently evil and/or inferior.

These works were not intended to stand up to any kind of analysis. If you try to analyze beyond being brain-dead violent entertainment for sheltered people who have never experienced the horror of real-life violence, then it quickly deteriorates into what you can only reconstruct as either fascist propaganda or failed satire thereof. Along with a possibly fetishistic fixation on imagery of women being raped.


...

But what I find the most annoying is a recurring underlying assumption that fiction can't or shouldn't have any deep meanings or messages applicable to reality. It's just supposed to be surface level entertainment... at least until anybody criticizes it. I'm really surprised by how vehemently weaboos can argue that something is simultaneous deep and yet undeserving of analysis/criticism.

Not everybody who consumes media will do so with their brain turned off. If you don't want lots of people of varying political persuasions to independently read messages that you never intended, like sexism or racism or fascism, then you shouldn't setup your work in such a way that lends itself so easily to such interpretations.


Goblin Slayer is superficially a fantasy/D&D/action anime.  It is also a story of a traumatized man who adopted the ways of his assailants.  He became the goblin to goblins (in his own words, even!), differentiated not in spirit but merely in capacity -- as a human he is capable of more, has better tools, and has better allies.  His peers warn his first party member away from him, knowing he ain't right.  When he dies, he sees a goblin asking him cliche riddles.

The higher level story is about the party members and childhood friend who strive to drag him away from insanity.  At least going by the anime, at the end of the first season, there are hints that they had some limited measure of success.
Trying to impose any kind of critical reading on Goblin Slayer is inevitably going to run into the fact that it’s misogynistic rape-porn/gore-porn. Making GS himself the real victim, while almost every woman introduced is a nameless disposable sex object stuffed in the fridge... do I really have to explain why that makes the supposed attempts to tackle serious issues fall flat? It’s so fucking tone deaf.


Go visit Ovarit.com if you want to learn how much shit women have to put up with in real life.


We live in a world where sexism, homophobia, racism, blah blah blah are alive and well and causing problems. But the woke crowd blows it out of proportion, desensitizing society to real problems and probably making society more prejudiced overall. That’s what I mean by clown world. One step forward, three steps back.
Yes so much sexism the wahmen are such an oppressed group outside of the islamic countries and other various shitholes, ditto for the gays.
As for the racism and the woke, well they just made a whites only space in the name of inclusion...
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 14, 2020, 10:22:55 PM
The Iliad didn't take time out to demonize one side as being fundamentally evil subhuman scum by virtue of birth that deserve either extermination or enslavement, or describe the rape and dismemberment of women in fetishistic detail.

I can't imagine Jane Austen writing To Reign in Hell or Elric of Melniboné, either. I can't imagine her writing outside the genre that she wrote within.


So you can't not take my example so literally as to ascertain what I meant? Can you not resist the disingenuous impulse to dive to the furthest extreme to make a point which you then conflate with a gross overgeneralization that your entire position hinges on, that no one here, and no one with any reasonable intelligence, can possibly agree with?


Your qualification over "fetishization" is made as someone that either doesn't understand genre, or you're pretending to be too stupid to. OR maybe you don't, and that is the real problem.


What you call "fetishization" needs clarification. It's a term you're tossing out there with some clearly unspoken claims - which is what makes you disingenuous.


By the same token, I can't imagine Homer (or any Greek writer) penning The Lord of the Rings. The Iliad is far more nuanced than most fantasy fiction aside from maybe A Song of Ice and Fire.


Smokescreen. You either understand what I'm talking about, or you don't.


All of that feels rather tangential to the fact that humanoids are simply props in violent fantasies and don't lend themselves to fleshing out. It's about as deep as the old television westerns that depicted native americans as simply generic baddies to be gunned down by the heroes, or the action movies that depict the hero mowing down hordes of faceless mooks.


So tangential that you created some tangents of your own to dodge the very claim I'm making while you re-word the very issue I'm having: you're pretending to know the mind of ALL authors you decide are racist arbitrarily. Homer wasn't "racist" by any standard you entertain today? Please.


You literally nuanced your own argument into meaningless.

Attempts to flesh them out have resulted in pointlessly elaborate justifications for "they're totes evil and should be killed on sight."

Pointing out the similarities in depersonization between westerns, action movies, fantasy escapades, FPS games, etc does not make me the real racist here.


Well show us all with examples how works of sci-fi have created genocides. Please show us! And show us where the consumptions of any such fare is *NORMAL* and not an outlier?


We've done this dance many times - heavy metal, D&D, pornography, etc. etc. You will fail in your claims just like all the rest. Maybe this is just mental illness? Stupidity? Seems more likely. But I await your evidence.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Chris24601 on September 14, 2020, 11:57:41 PM
We've done this dance many times - heavy metal, D&D, pornography, etc. etc. You will fail in your claims just like all the rest. Maybe this is just mental illness? Stupidity? Seems more likely. But I await your evidence.
You waste your time. Box is a guilt-wracked self-loathing white liberal fully indoctrinated into Wokism to the point that he can only make ritualistic mouth sounds that he’s been assured will cleanse him of his original sin of white privilege.


He claims he’s not, but the woke are indoctrinated to lie in order to try and win others to their nihilistic cult in which the only truth is what they decide it to be in this moment and can be the opposite tomorrow if they feel like it and everything he espouses is right out of the Church of Wokism.


I went and looked and he hasn’t produced one useful suggestion or idea in any RPG-related thread since I’ve been here. He’s joined HappyDaze on my ignore list because trying to reason with the intellectually dishonest is a waste of time.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: sureshot on September 15, 2020, 08:18:40 AM
So Box pulled a HD because the forum is not agreeing enough with his counterpoints on a topic. Sad to see though not surprised as many claim to want to hear both sides yet really just want posts that keep pushing the carefully constructed personal narratives. Why pretend to want to hear from both sides especially when it's just a lie to talk town, wag the finger and claim to ones ideological opponent that they are terrible people.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on September 15, 2020, 08:22:07 AM
He claims he’s not, but the woke are indoctrinated to lie in order to try and win others to their nihilistic cult in which the only truth is what they decide it to be in this moment and can be the opposite tomorrow if they feel like it and everything he espouses is right out of the Church of Wokism.


I went and looked and he hasn’t produced one useful suggestion or idea in any RPG-related thread since I’ve been here. He’s joined HappyDaze on my ignore list because trying to reason with the intellectually dishonest is a waste of time.
You never can know for sure, but Box might be a true believer.  If nothing else, he's a one-trick pony.  You understate the case in one respect, because not only has he not contributed to any RPG-related thread, all of his "contributions" are on this one narrow topic in one respect or another.  It might be more monomania than woke.  Also, this might be one of those rare cases of "intellectually dishonest" being the charitable description of a toxic mix of stupid, ignorant, and too lacking in self-awareness to begin to correct either.

Not that any of that really changes the validity of your conclusion.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 15, 2020, 09:14:53 AM
So Box pulled a HD because the forum is not agreeing enough with his counterpoints on a topic.
Query: HD?
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 15, 2020, 09:48:05 AM
So Box pulled a HD because the forum is not agreeing enough with his counterpoints on a topic.
Query: HD?


Probably HappyDaze.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 15, 2020, 10:58:23 AM
I have no idea what anybody is saying anymore.


This is not a hill I'm willing to die on.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 15, 2020, 11:49:51 AM
I have no idea what anybody is saying anymore.


This is not a hill I'm willing to die on.


What we're saying is:


SJW's project their own inherent racism and bigotry on *everyone* else. They've adopted alternative definitions for words that do not comport with their actual meanings - and worse, they've conflated words and thoughts to mean actions and have lost the capacity to differentiate between the two. This may be (likely) an emergent quality of the ideology that has been taught to them. This ideology further insulates itself by leveraging the thought-mechanisms of cult-behavior by demonizing anything that does not comport with their doctrine.


The net-effect is a deracination of the individual from the moorings of reality. This leads to the justifications for their racism and bigotry and blinds them from their own hypocrisy because of their adoption of these conflicting definitions which supports the very racism SJW's pretend they're fighting against.


This is a the pathological adherence to Post-Modernism where in comparing two opposite things the individual loses the ability to make a discernment of quality between them. i.e. everything becomes "equal" in value. This is an illusion of epic proportions.


You may not wish to figuratively die on this hill... but it might be too late, figuratively, if you can't understand what we're saying.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Zirunel on September 15, 2020, 02:24:41 PM


What we're saying is:


SJW's project their own inherent racism and bigotry on *everyone* else. They've adopted alternative definitions for words that do not comport with their actual meanings - and worse, they've conflated words and thoughts to mean actions and have lost the capacity to differentiate between the two. This may be (likely) an emergent quality of the ideology that has been taught to them. This ideology further insulates itself by leveraging the thought-mechanisms of cult-behavior by demonizing anything that does not comport with their doctrine.


The net-effect is a deracination of the individual from the moorings of reality. This leads to the justifications for their racism and bigotry and blinds them from their own hypocrisy because of their adoption of these conflicting definitions which supports the very racism SJW's pretend they're fighting against.


This is a the pathological adherence to Post-Modernism where in comparing two opposite things the individual loses the ability to make a discernment of quality between them. i.e. everything becomes "equal" in value. This is an illusion of epic proportions.


You may not wish to figuratively die on this hill... but it might be too late, figuratively, if you can't understand what we're saying.


I'm not certain that that is what BCT doesn't understand. I'm not even certain he disagrees with that, as far as it goes. For example, if we rewind to the post that began this thread, I suspect he would agree that "Alien as angry black woman" is preposterous. If I read him right, his argument with you would be more along the lines of "yes, but..."


 However, I can't really speak for him,  that's just my read, and maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 15, 2020, 03:03:39 PM
I admit I'm more than a little offended at the whole 'RPGs have no more depth than a violent video game'. That's kind of a slap to every module writer who's tried to write an adventure that was more than just 'go to point A and kill stuff', from our gracious host to ol' Gygax and Arneson.


They may not always succeed, but is that a reflection on -them-, or the GM?


BCT is also unconsciously (and hilariously) parroting the same arguments I've seen in Dragon Magazine letters from the 80's. Some things never change.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 15, 2020, 05:22:48 PM
I'm not certain that that is what BCT doesn't understand. I'm not even certain he disagrees with that, as far as it goes. For example, if we rewind to the post that began this thread, I suspect he would agree that "Alien as angry black woman" is preposterous. If I read him right, his argument with you would be more along the lines of "yes, but..."


 However, I can't really speak for him,  that's just my read, and maybe I'm wrong.


Possibly. But that's what I'm trying to interrogate...


the "yes, but". On it's face - it's fine. I don't have any problem with people offering up counterfacts. That's good for healthy discussion. But the reflexive use of "Yes, but" without any contextual discernment of what gets offered up *after* the "Yes, but" is what is needed.


If the premise of the "Yes, but" ignores any of the aforementioned claims such as "Pretending to know what the intent of of what's in someone's mind at the time of an an action is very difficult to ascertain"... You know... this is the difference between Manslaughter and Murder 1. Intent is *extremely* hard to prove for a reason.


Saying "Yes, but" - then flying off the handle with telepathic claims of intent, should be taken with extreme skepticism. the degree to which people engage in this kind of rhetoric as a norm means the problem is likely with the person making the rhetorical argument.



Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on September 15, 2020, 06:46:44 PM
Sad to see though not surprised as many claim to want to hear both sides yet really just want posts that keep pushing the carefully constructed personal narratives. Why pretend to want to hear from both sides especially when it's just a lie to talk town, wag the finger and claim to ones ideological opponent that they are terrible people.
You're giving your secrets away again.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on September 15, 2020, 06:49:08 PM
This ideology further insulates itself by leveraging the thought-mechanisms of cult-behavior by demonizing anything that does not comport with their doctrine.
That trait is hardly a unique identifier for SJWs...unless you're suggesting that many prominent posters on this site are SJWs.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: VisionStorm on September 15, 2020, 07:18:48 PM
I'm not certain that that is what BCT doesn't understand. I'm not even certain he disagrees with that, as far as it goes. For example, if we rewind to the post that began this thread, I suspect he would agree that "Alien as angry black woman" is preposterous. If I read him right, his argument with you would be more along the lines of "yes, but..."


 However, I can't really speak for him,  that's just my read, and maybe I'm wrong.

Possibly. But that's what I'm trying to interrogate...


the "yes, but". On it's face - it's fine. I don't have any problem with people offering up counterfacts. That's good for healthy discussion. But the reflexive use of "Yes, but" without any contextual discernment of what gets offered up *after* the "Yes, but" is what is needed.


If the premise of the "Yes, but" ignores any of the aforementioned claims such as "Pretending to know what the intent of of what's in someone's mind at the time of an an action is very difficult to ascertain"... You know... this is the difference between Manslaughter and Murder 1. Intent is *extremely* hard to prove for a reason.


Saying "Yes, but" - then flying off the handle with telepathic claims of intent, should be taken with extreme skepticism. the degree to which people engage in this kind of rhetoric as a norm means the problem is likely with the person making the rhetorical argument.

I have been down this road before and “Yes, but... (ignores any refutations and just reiterates his/her/their? point with ever increasing histrionic hyperbole mixed with oddly misanthropic quips and lamentations about the human species)” is all that arguing with crayon eater ever gives you. He/she/it(?) never addresses your point. He(etc.) almost never provides any example of WTF exactly he’s talking about, and in the odd event that they(?) do, it’s always wrong and a misrepresentation of the actual work it(?) is using as an example. Everything is “obviously” racist, sexist, whatever and you just have to accept it as self-evident fact.

Arguments with crayon always end in frustration—both, your own and their’s, which he/she/it(?) will express profusely in a whiny manner. I’ve argued this exact same topic with him(?) extensively months ago, and it just went on in circles (as arguments with them always do), and it never went anywhere, with crayon never counter arguing my refutations and just circling back to his original point eventually, just slightly reworded or from a different angle—like he/she/it(?) is desperately trying to convince me of his foregone conclusion rather than actually addressing my point.

Like bringing it up again, but comparing orcs to vikings instead of non-white ethnic groups this time around is going to convince me that describing a group as “bloodthirsty raiding savages” is always racist propaganda to justify “blah, blah, blah” rather than accurate descriptions of both, vikings and orcs. Cuz obviously I’m a white supremacist or something, and I would relate more to a white group of bloodthirsty raiding savages, so using them as an example is just what I would find relatable enough to realize just how racist it is to refer to a group of bloodthirsty raiding savages as bloodthirsty raiding savages. Except that vikings ARE bloodthirsty raiding savages, and the fact that some groups have historically used words like “bloodthirsty raiding savages” as part of their racist propaganda to justify blah, blah, blah does not change the fact that the words “bloodthirsty raiding savages” can ALSO be accurate descriptors for some groups. And if you want to describe something you HAVE to use accurate terminology and the fact that racist groups may have also used similar words in their propaganda DOES NOT mean that those words are compromised and racist forever and you cannot use them again.

But crayon’s histrionic, myopic ass can’t tell the difference so he/she/it just chooses to interpret EVERYTHING as “similar to racist propaganda, therefore ‘obviously’ equal to racist propaganda”. So the argument circles back, ENDLESSLY, cuz he ain’t arguing points or listening to reason. He just has his forgone points stuck in his head, which he wrongheadedly takes as “obvious” despite just being figments in his head. So won’t discuss anything else. And it goes on and on, FOREVER.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 15, 2020, 08:19:02 PM
Like bringing it up again, but comparing orcs to vikings instead of non-white ethnic groups this time around is going to convince me that describing a group as “bloodthirsty raiding savages” is always racist propaganda to justify “blah, blah, blah” rather than accurate descriptions of both, vikings and orcs. Cuz obviously I’m a white supremacist or something, and I would relate more to a white group of bloodthirsty raiding savages, so using them as an example is just what I would find relatable enough to realize just how racist it is to refer to a group of bloodthirsty raiding savages as bloodthirsty raiding savages. Except that vikings ARE bloodthirsty raiding savages, and the fact that some groups have historically used words like “bloodthirsty raiding savages” as part of their racist propaganda to justify blah, blah, blah does not change the fact that the words “bloodthirsty raiding savages” can ALSO be accurate descriptors for some groups. And if you want to describe something you HAVE to use accurate terminology and the fact that racist groups may have also used similar words in their propaganda DOES NOT mean that those words are compromised and racist forever and you cannot use them again.

But crayon’s histrionic, myopic ass can’t tell the difference so he/she/it just chooses to interpret EVERYTHING as “similar to racist propaganda, therefore ‘obviously’ equal to racist propaganda”. So the argument circles back, ENDLESSLY, cuz he ain’t arguing points or listening to reason. He just has his forgone points stuck in his head, which he wrongheadedly takes as “obvious” despite just being figments in his head. So won’t discuss anything else. And it goes on and on, FOREVER.


Yeah. I think that's an accurate description of how these discussions go round. It's frustrating because we seem to hover on the edge of some kind of resolution, but never actually get there.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 15, 2020, 11:51:50 PM
This ideology further insulates itself by leveraging the thought-mechanisms of cult-behavior by demonizing anything that does not comport with their doctrine.
That trait is hardly a unique identifier for SJWs...unless you're suggesting that many prominent posters on this site are SJWs.


Simple litmus test: Is that really what I mean? Did you just isolate some smaller item for the purposes of conflating to encompass some other gross generalization? It would almost seem as if someone literally said this in the very same post you excised it from...



Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Spinachcat on September 16, 2020, 01:41:17 AM
So...orcs ARE black people and now that orcs don't get -2 INT, everything's cool?

But since it's been determined by the exalted followers of the "Party of Science" that orcs are black people, orcs forever shall be blacks since changing orcs never erases the horrible original Gygaxian sin, thus the "problem" shall haunt fantasy games forevermore...
...unless you boot these clowns from your table (preferably through a window).

In any other year, I might find it interesting that ONLY those obsessed with race, skin color and imaginary omniprescent racism would be the ones so adamant that orcs are black people. But in 2020, I am truly done giving a shit trying to understand or debate the idiocy they crap out of their mouths.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 16, 2020, 08:25:40 AM
I don’t have a dog in this fight. You don’t need to obsess over me.

What do you want me to say? “Anyone who thinks there are any similarities whatsoever between the depictions of humanoids in D&D and any real life racist propaganda is a racist.”

Okay.

Anybody who thinks any depiction of goblins shares any traits with antisemitic caricatures (e.g. money grubbing, power hungry, small, miserly w/ dark ugly features, large ears and huge nose, corrosive and subversive) is a racist.

Anybody who thinks any depiction of orcs shares any traits with any propaganda humans throw at each other since time immemorial (e.g. violent thugs, subhuman, stupid, rapists, cannibals, barbarians, raiders, savages, explosive breeders, deserve extermination, target practice) is a racist.

Damn any man who sympathizes with humanoids. Kill and scalp all, big and little, nits make lice.

Are we good now? The mental effort to stay invested in this tangent has been very exhausting and stressful for me. I got diarrhea.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: sureshot on September 16, 2020, 10:07:08 AM
So anything and everything is racist no matter what anyone says. Good to know. I don't agree with that and I won't change Orcs, Goblins, or other evil Humanoids to fit some offended player sense of faux outrage and racism.


I am running Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign and in one of the books their are Orcs guarding the ruins of a haunted castle. Which imo does not really mesh well with the encounters in the castle. It's a haunted castle populated by undead under guard by a bunch of Orcs. Essentially the Orcs in the area overran the castle and during the battle a curse fell upon it due to all the deaths and agony etc.. All the Orc invaders except one die and the one that does escape has his skin permanently turned white from the encounter.


The premise for the Orcs is that they are the descendants of the surviving Orc keeping an eye on the castle except it also contradicts that the Orcs want nothing to do with the castle. Imo it felt like the writer of the part of the Adventure Path wanted to throw Orcs at the players when imo it should have been Undead. I am planning to have the players just either bypass the Orcs or come to some kind of diplomatic agreement. The Orcs are their to make sure to keep Orcs and anything evil from escaping the castle. No reason they would have to attack the players. Just because they are Evil does mean they have to be stupid.


Too bad about BOX being an SJW ("Guys I'm not really an SJW" ). He had some interesting posts yet don't bullshit the forum about being social progressive then play the victim.

Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: sureshot on September 16, 2020, 10:14:50 AM
The one thing SJWs don't seem to want to get let alone understand is that unlike gaming forums especially the SJW echo chamber style one is that it gives them a sense of invincibility. Behind a keyboard and screen one can call everyone, everything, anything, anyone a racist etc.. In public at a gamers home that kind of behavior will get someone shown the door and kicked out of the campaign. One is not going to strut into an existing campaign and simply start spouting racist and racism and the rest of the group is simply going to nod and change their ways.


Unless i make my own campaign world. Then I will change Orcs, goblins etc into something other than evil. For now I run them by the Bestiaries and how I have always run them. Absolutely non-negotiable or up for any form of debate. If a player does not like they can leave.



Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 16, 2020, 10:26:12 AM
I don’t have a dog in this fight. You don’t need to obsess over me.

What do you want me to say? “Anyone who thinks there are any similarities whatsoever between the depictions of humanoids in D&D and any real life racist propaganda is a racist.”

Okay.

Anybody who thinks any depiction of goblins shares any traits with antisemitic caricatures (e.g. money grubbing, power hungry, small, miserly w/ dark ugly features, large ears and huge nose, corrosive and subversive) is a racist.

Anybody who thinks any depiction of orcs shares any traits with any propaganda humans throw at each other since time immemorial (e.g. violent thugs, subhuman, stupid, rapists, cannibals, barbarians, raiders, savages, explosive breeders, deserve extermination, target practice) is a racist.

Damn any man who sympathizes with humanoids. Kill and scalp all, big and little, nits make lice.

Are we good now? The mental effort to stay invested in this tangent has been very exhausting and stressful for me. I got diarrhea.


Well if you ask a question without conceding the root of the reasoning behind the question might be flawed, or overthought, and aren't willing to entertain you might be wrong from the start, then that might be your first big problem.


I mean let me ask you a simple question in the formulation of your position - rather than jump to "RACISM"...


Can you show me an example of an author, any author, that hasn't used some kind of trope about telling a story where the enemy doesn't have some characteristic that has NO negative connotation in your mind which YOU associate with a specific culture?


Because that's exactly how you're formulating it without context. Case in point - when I talk about Lord of the Rings, I'm talking about the books. When you were talking about the Lords of the Rings, you specifically cited that to you they were mongol-inspired etc... from the movies. But the discussion about "Orcs being Blacks" is directly an attack at Tolkien... not Peter Jackson. There is *nothing* in the books that leads me to believe the Orcs have anything in particular to do with any analog culture in the real world.


They're supposed to be "savage". Well that means something. If you, and others associate "savagery" with 'blacks' in your own minds... it says more about the people that make those associations than anything else. I come from a "savage" culture. I GET IT. A hundred years ago my people were actively (and some say they continue to do it down south) headhunting and eating the long-pork. Am I ashamed of it? Nope.


But that's because I'm civilized. I find it really weird that the associations of "savagery" and "uncivilized culture" is such a hand-wringing issue for white-leftists here in Western European culture. This is where the whole "unconscious bias" thing glares. Tribalism with people that aren't that bright leads to violent behavior. This is not a sociological secret.


I no more look at the savages in the Philippines that gang-bang in the jungle and shoot each other with bows, and hack at each other with their SWEET Igorot Axes and collect one another's heads, as socially and in many ways behaviorally different than gangbangers I knew living in LA, who busted on one another with guns over resources and territory and perceived slights in similar fashion. They also behaviorally similar my Cajun cousins in Louisiana that are also very territorial and do stupid behaviors within their culture in many aspects.


Behaviors, not culture. The specifics matter. Where the biased racism comes in is the blanket statement, free of cultural context that indeed Orcs (who are typically shown as savage in culture) are immediately assumed to be stand-in's for "blacks". Well if you're an ignorant numbskull that looks at blacks as "savages", then I can't help you. Every denomination of American ethnicity is going to have their outliers. But using a blanket statement in this manner is not going to get you any agreement free of real argument.


But that's not the REAL issue here. The real issue is it's not about "racism" - it's about the pogrom of deconstructing Western cultural iconography by calling it racist and the useful idiots to march in line with such deconstructions. Guilt by association being a favorite. Even across translations like the movies-from-books.


And where can we NOT apply this bad logic? Conversely where are the modern epic fantasy fictions from Africa? They may exist, but there is a reason Tolkien is targetted and not R.A. Salvatore, isn't there?


Why is that, you think?
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 16, 2020, 01:16:34 PM
I am running Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign and in one of the books their are Orcs guarding the ruins of a haunted castle. Which imo does not really mesh well with the encounters in the castle. It's a haunted castle populated by undead under guard by a bunch of Orcs. Essentially the Orcs in the area overran the castle and during the battle a curse fell upon it due to all the deaths and agony etc.. All the Orc invaders except one die and the one that does escape has his skin permanently turned white from the encounter.


The premise for the Orcs is that they are the descendants of the surviving Orc keeping an eye on the castle except it also contradicts that the Orcs want nothing to do with the castle. Imo it felt like the writer of the part of the Adventure Path wanted to throw Orcs at the players when imo it should have been Undead. I am planning to have the players just either bypass the Orcs or come to some kind of diplomatic agreement. The Orcs are their to make sure to keep Orcs and anything evil from escaping the castle. No reason they would have to attack the players. Just because they are Evil does mean they have to be stupid.

Huh? You can guard something without wanting anything to do with it. It's why we put fences around nuclear test sites.


What surprises me is that it's -orcs- doing the guarding. I'd swap them out for hobgoblins; better discipline and intellectual capacity for 'containment' options. Heck, the hobs are probably more likely to parley with an adventuring party (the logic being, if they fail, one less band of adventurers to get in their way, and if they succeed, the hobs can move on to something more worthwhile).
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2020, 04:15:54 PM
Are we good now? The mental effort to stay invested in this tangent has been very exhausting and stressful for me. I got diarrhea.


You know, when I left RPG.net I had a similar reaction. (Sans diarrhea) Having and defending unpopular ideas in a forum critical to them is exhausting. I'll give you some advice from hindsight.


1. Maybe you're right and we're wrong. People are allowed to be wrong. Maybe we'll catch up someday. Maybe we'll go to our graves being wrong. Who knows. You can't expect to convince everyone on the internet all at once.


2. Maybe you're wrong and we're right. Can you entertain the notion that you might be in error? That the evidence you have is not convincing? That the ideas you espouse are not well thought out? There's no shame in being wrong. (Though I was shamed for being wrong at RPG.net, and that's part of the reason why I left.)


3. We're all just a bunch of people arguing on the internet. People get into nasty, personal arguments over how many turbolaser gun turrets are on a Star Destroyer. Try not to take it personally, or seriously. Even if the other person gets personal and serious. That's their problem.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 16, 2020, 06:21:21 PM
Are we good now? The mental effort to stay invested in this tangent has been very exhausting and stressful for me. I got diarrhea.


You know, when I left RPG.net I had a similar reaction. (Sans diarrhea) Having and defending unpopular ideas in a forum critical to them is exhausting. I'll give you some advice from hindsight.


1. Maybe you're right and we're wrong. People are allowed to be wrong. Maybe we'll catch up someday. Maybe we'll go to our graves being wrong. Who knows. You can't expect to convince everyone on the internet all at once.


2. Maybe you're wrong and we're right. Can you entertain the notion that you might be in error? That the evidence you have is not convincing? That the ideas you espouse are not well thought out? There's no shame in being wrong. (Though I was shamed for being wrong at RPG.net, and that's part of the reason why I left.)


3. We're all just a bunch of people arguing on the internet. People get into nasty, personal arguments over how many turbolaser gun turrets are on a Star Destroyer. Try not to take it personally, or seriously. Even if the other person gets personal and serious. That's their problem.


I don't know what's right or wrong in this situation.


I don't think orcs are racist. They're bags of XP and loots that PCs are expected to slaughter in order to advance. That's how the game works. Nobody wants to get bogged down in pointless debates about whether it's moral to kill an imaginary game construct.


I do think that some descriptions of orcs can resemble colonialist and racist propaganda used in real history to justify genocide. Some people find that, if not offensive, then really disturbing? I saw these parallels once they were explained to me and I can't very well unsee them.


But outside of that hubpages post, I never heard any anecdotes about parties going on genuine genocide sprees against orc villages. That seems more like a joke in D&D-based web shows or an abstract example used in nerdy philosophical debates than an actual thing that happens at gaming tables.


As far as I've heard, orcs only exist as evil raiders and dungeon squatting bandits to be killed for XP and loot. They don't have any society or infrastructure, never onscreen anyhow. Who wants to kill orc villages, anyway? I've never heard of any DM expecting their players to butcher villages.


It's a nerd argument that I like picking at because I'm autistic and bored, not because I'm a lunatic who thinks anybody who plays WarCraft is a racist.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2020, 08:12:30 PM
Are we good now? The mental effort to stay invested in this tangent has been very exhausting and stressful for me. I got diarrhea.


You know, when I left RPG.net I had a similar reaction. (Sans diarrhea) Having and defending unpopular ideas in a forum critical to them is exhausting. I'll give you some advice from hindsight.


1. Maybe you're right and we're wrong. People are allowed to be wrong. Maybe we'll catch up someday. Maybe we'll go to our graves being wrong. Who knows. You can't expect to convince everyone on the internet all at once.


2. Maybe you're wrong and we're right. Can you entertain the notion that you might be in error? That the evidence you have is not convincing? That the ideas you espouse are not well thought out? There's no shame in being wrong. (Though I was shamed for being wrong at RPG.net, and that's part of the reason why I left.)


3. We're all just a bunch of people arguing on the internet. People get into nasty, personal arguments over how many turbolaser gun turrets are on a Star Destroyer. Try not to take it personally, or seriously. Even if the other person gets personal and serious. That's their problem.


I don't know what's right or wrong in this situation.


I don't think orcs are racist. They're bags of XP and loots that PCs are expected to slaughter in order to advance. That's how the game works. Nobody wants to get bogged down in pointless debates about whether it's moral to kill an imaginary game construct.


I do think that some descriptions of orcs can resemble colonialist and racist propaganda used in real history to justify genocide. Some people find that, if not offensive, then really disturbing? I saw these parallels once they were explained to me and I can't very well unsee them.


But outside of that hubpages post, I never heard any anecdotes about parties going on genuine genocide sprees against orc villages. That seems more like a joke in D&D-based web shows or an abstract example used in nerdy philosophical debates than an actual thing that happens at gaming tables.


As far as I've heard, orcs only exist as evil raiders and dungeon squatting bandits to be killed for XP and loot. They don't have any society or infrastructure, never onscreen anyhow. Who wants to kill orc villages, anyway? I've never heard of any DM expecting their players to butcher villages.


It's a nerd argument that I like picking at because I'm autistic and bored, not because I'm a lunatic who thinks anybody who plays WarCraft is a racist.


Yes, yes. It's not that we don't understand your points. It's that we disagree with them. In part or in full or on some specifics.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Spinachcat on September 17, 2020, 04:49:05 AM
I saw these parallels once they were explained to me and I can't very well unsee them.


Did you give up sex after seeing Alien?


If not, then apparently you CAN "unsee" real world parallels involving a fictional monster built on metaphors to be used as a primary villain.


And don't blame autism. I taught autistic kids and everyone of them could find their ass with both hands AND differentiate imaginary bogeymen from their black classmates.


Also, if you''re using any monster as a disposable XP bag, don't do that. It's a video game trope that might be fine for kids playing D&D, but for adult gamers, every monster should have some depth beyond their XP/loot value.

Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 17, 2020, 08:21:53 AM
Did you give up sex after seeing Alien?

Give up sex? Hell, it gave me some new ideas. :D
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 17, 2020, 01:12:14 PM

I don't know what's right or wrong in this situation.


This alone has a lot to unpack. You don't know the difference between "right" and "wrong"? Or you don't know how to decouple or transcend the Post-Modern mechanic of viewing things from your eyes. This is not to say there is no value to holding opposites in tension with one another to suss out nuanced values. The problem that most people have with it - is lack of context with the values themselves and what their intrinsic properties are in proportion to *everything else*.


This creates what is known as the "pre-trans" fallacy. Where ones will conflate a lesser value (relatively outlier) to a higher value (relatively normative), or take a higher value (relatively normative) and deflate it down to the lesser value (relatively outlier). For those that *can't* see this fallacy in play, it blinds you to the differences between the two positions entirely.


SJW's are cultists that have been consumed by this fallacy and now operate directly from it. So nothing ultimately has a value - because everything gets reduced to one thing: power. They've invented an entire language around it, created definitions that go directly against reality to justify itself in a gross solipsism.


There is *nothing* that can't be reduced do meaninglessness by pathological post-modernism, because it is largely not self-aware of anything other than what is directly in front of its face.


That's precisely how one is unable to know "right from wrong" - because you're unable to determine contextually outside of the Post-Modern (pathological variety) the values of the things you're looking at.


Your solution is to go back to formula and start asking yourself basic questions like the Greeks did: Competing virtues. Taxonomy of ethics (Greater good principles vs. individual liberty). etc. You're staring at the bark of the tree in a massive jungle of greater things.


I don't think orcs are racist. They're bags of XP and loots that PCs are expected to slaughter in order to advance. That's how the game works. Nobody wants to get bogged down in pointless debates about whether it's moral to kill an imaginary game construct.


But that is precisely what the problem is. Just like you're saying "no one wants to get bogged down in pointless debates on the morality of "killing imaginary game constructs" - the construct of calling someone a racist because of their creation of something imaginary is EQUALLY a projection of the imagination.

NO ONE DIES/IS RAPED/ENSLAVED/<fill in immoral/unethical act of choice> in a work of fiction. Removing that reality and projecting your belief that engaging in such fictions imparts actionable beliefs on behalf of the people engaging and creating these things is UNETHICAL and illogical. Because where it might happen are extreme outliers at best. Conflating an outlier to be "normal" is the very problem.

I do think that some descriptions of orcs can resemble colonialist and racist propaganda used in real history to justify genocide. Some people find that, if not offensive, then really disturbing? I saw these parallels once they were explained to me and I can't very well unsee them.


Your very terminology begs for debate. It reeks of unspoken claims. Allow me to give you an example..


Without "colonialism" I would probably be a grass-skirt wearing, bone-in-the-nose headhunter. Because of colonialism - I'm a very well-to-do, educated, father, philosopher, husband, writer, with a strong ethical and moral compass that is utterly humbled by the expanse of history not just of my own material culture (filipino) but I'm *staggered* by the emergent qualities of Greco-Roman culture which has given me most of the tools I use today to navigate reality.


And I see people born to this culture - that are blind to the monumental fragile struggles that could have derailed all of this that go us here, so they can wring their hands over culturally relative issues in the past they refuse to look at in context.


No, the propaganda is one of your own making. Not of historical reality. Any black American can go back to Africa if they really wanted to. There is a damn good reason why they don't (and conversely since you like to play around with the Post-Modernist mechanism) why Africans largely want to come *here*.


But outside of that hubpages post, I never heard any anecdotes about parties going on genuine genocide sprees against orc villages. That seems more like a joke in D&D-based web shows or an abstract example used in nerdy philosophical debates than an actual thing that happens at gaming tables.


I've made many references in posts about what I've allowed in my campaigns - Genocide is on that list *every time* because it's happened in my campaigns (2.1 million drow dead via biological warfare and forced volcano-explosion in the Underdark! alongside the death of several hundred-thousand mountain dwarves). At the hands of the PC's decisions ultimately. That counts as genocide. Was it intended? No - but it was emergent do the context and circumstances of the game. There is nothing philosophical about the discussion of it - because I don't prohibit my players from doing anything in the game. Are their repercussions? *of course* that's called "The Game".


And no one in my gaming group has ever advocated the genocide of another race. Or raped anyone. Or enslaved anyone. Or murdered anyone. You'd think after 40+ years of GMing I'd get at least ONE murderer based on your concerns... alas I haven't rolled my Natural 20 on that one yet.


As far as I've heard, orcs only exist as evil raiders and dungeon squatting bandits to be killed for XP and loot. They don't have any society or infrastructure, never onscreen anyhow. Who wants to kill orc villages, anyway? I've never heard of any DM expecting their players to butcher villages.


/Shrug. Me either. But yet "savagery" has a meaning that doesn't necessarily tie it to a specific culture. And there are plenty of historical examples of "civilized" people resorting to the same tactics in order to combat "savagery". That Orcs, who almost by definition in D&D and most fictional representations ARE savage... they will have behaviors that are associated with primitive cultures that most violent primitive cultures share. If someone wants to draw upon real world examples of such behaviors - it's not hard. That doesn't mean Orcs are black people. If YOU want to believe that, then it's on you.

It's a nerd argument that I like picking at because I'm autistic and bored, not because I'm a lunatic who thinks anybody who plays WarCraft is a racist.


Well I hope you're not bored with me. That would be insulting.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 17, 2020, 01:43:56 PM
You know, there's a solution to this kind of round and round.


Set up or use a setting where orcs aren't barely-literate evil barbarian savages.


Exhibit A: Eberron!
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: tenbones on September 17, 2020, 05:46:34 PM
But then you'll see the "real issue" -


ANY form of culture they read into as being "non-Western European" without giving that culture primacy in the setting, can and will be seen as racist. The real issue here is that because these people (SJW's) lack any kind of perspective outside of the Pathological Post-Modernist "perspective" - they have been taught to be consumed with self-loathing of their own culture.


Note that none of these people criticize the insane civil abuses, bigotry and racism as practiced by the Chinese *instututionally* as well as culturally. They don't get outraged at their Government representatives that take money from the Chinese and other authoritarian regimes, they don't boycott companies that do business with China, openly displaying their own corporate racist policies (see Disney, Nike, and most of your big banking institutions as mere examples). They don't protest *open slavery* currently alive and well in Libya and other parts of Western and Eastern Africa. They don't protest the insane pogroms against LGBT people in the Middle-East and eastern Europe. Instead they find these relatively tiny outliers here in America and pretend to be truly outraged.


But give up their shoes, their iPhones, their support of Hollywood, the big banking institutions? Their support of overtly bigoted politicians (looking at you Kamala Harris "Biden is racist... until he nominates me for VP. Because you know, it's just politics." No way! We'd rather riot and pretend we're freedom fighters...


You know because voting your rights away, voting in Authoritarians whose goals are to strip what little wealth is left in the lower, middle, and upper class, for the purposes of keeping everyone equal in terms of poverty, who pal'ed around with Corporatists that sent our jobs overseas with the tacit support of the extreme nobility in the political/corporate class, and burning down ones own neighborhood and pretending you're fighting "muh-Fascism" using actual Fascism is preferable to facing reality... in THE ONE PLACE ON EARTH WITH THE FREEDOM (for now) that would allow this bullshit to even happen. The lack of self-awareness is astounding.


Either way we, as a nation lose.


Well... *I* am not going to lose. I dunno about these SJW's... If it all comes down, I remember what it's like to live in savage-mode. I guarantee you these soft Antifa-LARP-kiddies don't.



Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 17, 2020, 05:49:22 PM
You know, there's a solution to this kind of round and round.


Set up or use a setting where orcs aren't barely-literate evil barbarian savages.


Exhibit A: Eberron!


Yeah, but that becomes a problematic trope. The "Noble Savage". You can't win. Everything is problematic.


The only silver lining is that critical theory will deconstruct itself eventually. The dark cloud is that it will take a lot of culture down along the way.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: VisionStorm on September 17, 2020, 07:09:12 PM
You know, there's a solution to this kind of round and round.


Set up or use a setting where orcs aren't barely-literate evil barbarian savages.


Exhibit A: Eberron!

Or Al-Qadim. Even Forgotten Realms had an orc tribe that had non-evil orcs who weren’t complete raiding savages, IIRC. Warcraft comes to mind as well—granted, they started out as raiders, but later evolved to develop greater nuance—and there was 3e supplement to Warcraft in D&D. I could probably think of many more examples if I bothered to check, but point is they exist, and in great numbers.

But ALL of this has been brought up before numerous times in any of several threads where this same discussion has come up, yet crayon always falls back to making sweeping statements like these...

As far as I've heard, orcs only exist as evil raiders and dungeon squatting bandits to be killed for XP and loot. They don't have any society or infrastructure, never onscreen anyhow.

...and many others that imply that orcs are only ever bags of XP and never given any nuance in any work of fiction or game table. Except they have—over and over again. There’s orc nuance EVERYWHERE. There are D&D supplements dedicated to describing orc society and infrastructure. I have included orc and goblin children in my games numerous times, and back when I gave any credence to alignment (decades ago) if you killed a goblinoid kid (which came up a few times) you would shift alignment to evil instantly. If your character was a paladin they would lose their paladinhood immediately. And they would still lose their paladinhood now even though I no longer care about alignment.

Crayon’s entire line of argument and reasoning is without context to their very core. Almost NONE of these claims are true, and are based entirely on an out of context hyperbolic reality that ignores everything that contradicts it, which is plenty.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 18, 2020, 08:18:36 AM

Or Al-Qadim. Even Forgotten Realms had an orc tribe that had non-evil orcs who weren’t complete raiding savages, IIRC. Warcraft comes to mind as well—granted, they started out as raiders, but later evolved to develop greater nuance—and there was 3e supplement to Warcraft in D&D. I could probably think of many more examples if I bothered to check, but point is they exist, and in great numbers.

But ALL of this has been brought up before numerous times in any of several threads where this same discussion has come up, yet crayon always falls back to making sweeping statements like these...

As far as I've heard, orcs only exist as evil raiders and dungeon squatting bandits to be killed for XP and loot. They don't have any society or infrastructure, never onscreen anyhow.

...and many others that imply that orcs are only ever bags of XP and never given any nuance in any work of fiction or game table. Except they have—over and over again. There’s orc nuance EVERYWHERE. There are D&D supplements dedicated to describing orc society and infrastructure. I have included orc and goblin children in my games numerous times, and back when I gave any credence to alignment (decades ago) if you killed a goblinoid kid (which came up a few times) you would shift alignment to evil instantly. If your character was a paladin they would lose their paladinhood immediately. And they would still lose their paladinhood now even though I no longer care about alignment.

Crayon’s entire line of argument and reasoning is without context to their very core. Almost NONE of these claims are true, and are based entirely on an out of context hyperbolic reality that ignores everything that contradicts it, which is plenty.
IIRC, Warcraft's orcs were fleeing a demonic invasion of their homeworld. So it was less 'We're raiding you for the lulz' and a LOT more 'we're moving in because we LITERALLY have no place else to go.'


Heck, WoW had an expansion where you got to explore an alternate timeline where the orcs didn't accidentally release the Burning Legions onto their homeworld.


But it gives the socjus types that cheap dopamine rush to play these games.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 18, 2020, 05:41:14 PM
And you lost me again.


Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?


We can apply similar logic to D&D. It's an American game whose world building took cues from the colonization of the American West. There were tons of racist tracts saying that indigenous peoples were inferior and should be exterminated. Saying that the way humanoids are depicted resembles racist tracts should be a value-neutral statement, if it is indeed accurate and that will vary by setting, not an indictment of players and designers.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Shasarak on September 18, 2020, 05:47:16 PM
Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?
You have lost me again.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 18, 2020, 07:19:18 PM
Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?


Have you ever watched The Producers? Do you recognize that the history the film is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the movie while knowing it's horrific roots?


I'm not quite sure kids even play cowboys and indians anymore. My nephew was more obsessed with fighting zombies. Which is still fucked up because zombies are pretty horrific if they actually existed.


So yeah, I can easily stomach a game like cowboys and indians. And even if I found it horrific, which I don't, it's not like it's a current phenomenon.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: VisionStorm on September 18, 2020, 07:50:06 PM
And you lost me again.

Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?

Yes.

Because I’m not an overly sensitive Tumblrina and Cowboys & Indians is just a variant of Cops & Robbers where no actual indians get killed or their lands get stolen. It’s just Blue Team/Red Team. It’s about two teams competing against each other while also learning to cooperate with members of their own team to achieve a common goal. The “Cowboys & Indians” part is just a theme. It has fuck to do with the actual history of Native Americans. It might as well be The Federation & The Klingon Empire with a bunch of kids dressed up like Trekkies using toy phasers instead of cowboys with toy guns.

We can apply similar logic to D&D.

You really can’t, but I know you’ll try.

It's an American game whose world building took cues from the colonization of the American West. There were tons of racist tracts saying that indigenous peoples were inferior and should be exterminated.

Which racist tracts, where? When the fuck in the entire history of D&D have indigenous people even been mentioned, much less called inferior and players told that they should be exterminated? When has this ever happened and WTF does this have to do with orcs, who are not exactly “indigenous peoples”?

Saying that the way humanoids are depicted resembles racist tracts should be a value-neutral statement, if it is indeed accurate and that will vary by setting, not an indictment of players and designers.

Except that it isn’t accurate and you have failed to provide a single example to back up your wild claims. Again.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on September 18, 2020, 08:43:24 PM
I grew up sometimes playing Cowboys and Indians.  There was always a fuss over who got to be the Indians.  Most of us wanted to, because we had at least rumors of some Cherokee in our ancestry.
Bottom line, yeah, Blue Team/Red Team--with both of them inspiring a great deal of respect.
No kids play Normal People vs SJW, and none ever will.  Wonder why that is...


Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2020, 10:01:06 AM
And you lost me again.

Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?

Yes.

Because I’m not an overly sensitive Tumblrina and Cowboys & Indians is just a variant of Cops & Robbers where no actual indians get killed or their lands get stolen. It’s just Blue Team/Red Team. It’s about two teams competing against each other while also learning to cooperate with members of their own team to achieve a common goal. The “Cowboys & Indians” part is just a theme. It has fuck to do with the actual history of Native Americans. It might as well be The Federation & The Klingon Empire with a bunch of kids dressed up like Trekkies using toy phasers instead of cowboys with toy guns.

We can apply similar logic to D&D.

You really can’t, but I know you’ll try.

It's an American game whose world building took cues from the colonization of the American West. There were tons of racist tracts saying that indigenous peoples were inferior and should be exterminated.

Which racist tracts, where? When the fuck in the entire history of D&D have indigenous people even been mentioned, much less called inferior and players told that they should be exterminated? When has this ever happened and WTF does this have to do with orcs, who are not exactly “indigenous peoples”?

Saying that the way humanoids are depicted resembles racist tracts should be a value-neutral statement, if it is indeed accurate and that will vary by setting, not an indictment of players and designers.

Except that it isn’t accurate and you have failed to provide a single example to back up your wild claims. Again.


I’m not afraid to play Cowboys & Indians either. Although my versions is probably a lot more risqué and weird than the standard rules.

I never said D&D promoted racism against real people. That’s false. Real people in real life promoted racism and genocide and wrote tracts about it.


Such as John Chivington. Chivington, a real person, was an advocate for the genocide of native Americans. He called them lice. He advocated killing the children, calling them nits.



Gary Gygax discussed Chivington in a 2005 Q&A while discussing what it meant to be lawful good. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197361&sid=cf11ac19845312ea9b8bd919e3b1ae64#p197361 (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197361&sid=cf11ac19845312ea9b8bd919e3b1ae64#p197361)


If you think the fluff text describing humanoids isn’t reminiscent of anything agenda-driven, then great for you. I’m not going to keep arguing because I doubt any example I give will be accepted anyway. I don’t care enough about this to look for more examples anyway.

Have a nice day. The only good orc is a dead orc. Insert other platitudes here.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 19, 2020, 10:09:48 AM
Gary Gygax discussed Chivington in a 2005 Q&A while discussing what it meant to be lawful good. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197361&sid=cf11ac19845312ea9b8bd919e3b1ae64#p197361 (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197361&sid=cf11ac19845312ea9b8bd919e3b1ae64#p197361)


Holy shit! I knew Gary was a misogynist from the harlot table in the DMG, but he's also denying Rape Culture! Everyone knows rape was A-OK all through history. What a patriarchal asshole!
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: David Johansen on September 19, 2020, 12:04:51 PM
Funny thing is that my Mom wouldn't let us play Cops and Robbers or War or Guns but Cowboys and Indians was A Okay.  Talk about your mixed messages.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: VisionStorm on September 19, 2020, 01:48:51 PM
I never said D&D promoted racism against real people. That’s false. Real people in real life promoted racism and genocide and wrote tracts about it.

I never said anything about real people. I mentioned indigenous people (which may as well be fantasy creatures that happen to be indigenous to a certain area, depending on the setting), in reference to your own post, where you claimed D&D promoted their extermination. Except that orcs are usually portrayed as invaders, not as indigenous peoples defending their lands. If anything it's the human(or other) settlers who are presumably the ones indigenous to whatever area orcs choose to occupy.

Such as John Chivington. Chivington, a real person, was an advocate for the genocide of native Americans. He called them lice. He advocated killing the children, calling them nits.



Gary Gygax discussed Chivington in a 2005 Q&A while discussing what it meant to be lawful good. https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197361&sid=cf11ac19845312ea9b8bd919e3b1ae64#p197361 (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197361&sid=cf11ac19845312ea9b8bd919e3b1ae64#p197361)

Gygax didn't exactly "discuss" Chivington, as much as reply to someone else who mentioned him and claimed that an expression that Gygax used about "Nits make lice" was coined by Chivington. To which Gygax replied that even if Chivington used that expression, that the expression actually predated him. So that post doesn't say what you claim it does. It's just an out of context forum post from decades ago.

If you think the fluff text describing humanoids isn’t reminiscent of anything agenda-driven, then great for you. I’m not going to keep arguing because I doubt any example I give will be accepted anyway. I don’t care enough about this to look for more examples anyway.

The only "example" you've ever given in this topic was the out of context Gary Gygax quote you posted above, from some gaming forum decades ago that didn't even say what you say it said.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Pat on September 19, 2020, 02:15:19 PM
Except that orcs are usually portrayed as invaders, not as indigenous peoples defending their lands. If anything it's the human(or other) settlers who are presumably the ones indigenous to whatever area orcs choose to occupy.
I don't see that.

The Keep on the Borderlands is explicitly a small fortified town in an area dominated by humanoid settlements (including orcs). The implication is the humanoids are the natives, while the humans are trying to tame the area for civilization. Which makes humans the invaders.

In the Forgotten Realms, the North is explicitly called the "savage frontier". Vast areas are dominated by humanoids, while the occasional human settlements are points of light in the dark. While the time scales are wonky (aren't they always, in fantasy worlds?), it's also clear the humans are relatively new. Sure, the humanoids form into hordes and periodically descent upon civilization, but even the hordes tend to attack the incursive human settlements like Silverymoon or Waterdeep, rather than more established humans areas like Tethyr. So again, humans are the invaders.

It also fits the general Western ethos of D&D in general.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: VisionStorm on September 19, 2020, 02:59:31 PM
Except that orcs are usually portrayed as invaders, not as indigenous peoples defending their lands. If anything it's the human(or other) settlers who are presumably the ones indigenous to whatever area orcs choose to occupy.
I don't see that.

The Keep on the Borderlands is explicitly a small fortified town in an area dominated by humanoid settlements (including orcs). The implication is the humanoids are the natives, while the humans are trying to tame the area for civilization. Which makes humans the invaders.

In the Forgotten Realms, the North is explicitly called the "savage frontier". Vast areas are dominated by humanoids, while the occasional human settlements are points of light in the dark. While the time scales are wonky (aren't they always, in fantasy worlds?), it's also clear the humans are relatively new. Sure, the humanoids form into hordes and periodically descent upon civilization, but even the hordes tend to attack the incursive human settlements like Silverymoon or Waterdeep, rather than more established humans areas like Tethyr. So again, humans are the invaders.

It also fits the general Western ethos of D&D in general.


I'm not really familiar with Keep on the Borderlands (I don't generally play modules), though, I suppose that's a plausible scenario, given that humanoids must dominate some territories if they exist in the world. But that's hardly the only type of scenario there is and it's also not always a clear cut case of certain territories being exclusively humanoid or human and whatever species is attacking at any given time being a non-indigenous invader.

In the case of Forgotten Realms for example, the "savage frontier" is actually full of human barbarian tribes IIRC, such as the one where Wulfgar (one of Drizzt's friends from the Icewind Dale trilogy) comes from, as well as dwarven settlements. It isn't just orcs and other humanoids that live there, and they hardly occupy the entire area. Many areas are just unsettled contested territories with few arable land, where humanoids may sometimes descend upon from farther away mountains where they actually live.

Also, my impression of humans being relative new in most fantasy settings is usually in relation to elves and dwarves, which are usually portrayed as being the older races that already occupied the lands before humans became numerous and prosperous and started expanding into their territories. Which is usually part of the reason given for elves being so aggressively protective of their forests, and would also be an example of an "indigenous" race that's not portrayed as vermin, but if anything as being superior to humans, but less numerous.

Waterdeep itself is build on the site of an ancient elven settlement according to the FR wiki (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Waterdeep) (though, it doesn't go into specifics on what happen to that settlement, if it fell to invasion or what), and started out as a trading post between (presumable human) northern tribesmen and southern merchants. It's hardly the site of human conquest of humanoid lands.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Spinachcat on September 19, 2020, 04:41:55 PM
Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?
Hell yeah! Great game with lots of fun memories of my little sister running around trying to scalp my friends wearing our mother's lipstick as warpaint. 20 years later she married an idiot who's half-Plains Indian. She should've scalped him instead.

And yes, the history is very fucked up...cuz that's how history OF EVERY COUNTRY is. The Natives did a whole lot of raping and murdering of Europeans and then got the brutally harsh lesson of what happens when your foe has technological superiority.

It's the exact lesson why I agree with those scientists who think Earth needs to STFU and stop sending random signals out to the galaxy with no idea who is listening because we're not even the Indians in that game.

Also, Orcs are NOT Native Americans. Orcs are black people. Everybody knows that!

Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 19, 2020, 08:33:42 PM
The Keep on the Borderlands is explicitly a small fortified town in an area dominated by humanoid settlements (including orcs). The implication is the humanoids are the natives, while the humans are trying to tame the area for civilization. Which makes humans the invaders.


The background section emphasises that the "enemies" are the servants of Chaos, not simply inhabitants.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on September 20, 2020, 10:10:08 AM
The Keep on the Borderlands is explicitly a small fortified town in an area dominated by humanoid settlements (including orcs). The implication is the humanoids are the natives, while the humans are trying to tame the area for civilization. Which makes humans the invaders.


The background section emphasises that the "enemies" are the servants of Chaos, not simply inhabitants.
One might say that's exactly how to group the enemies together as the Other instead of seeing them as people.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 20, 2020, 06:43:47 PM
The Keep on the Borderlands is explicitly a small fortified town in an area dominated by humanoid settlements (including orcs). The implication is the humanoids are the natives, while the humans are trying to tame the area for civilization. Which makes humans the invaders.


The background section emphasises that the "enemies" are the servants of Chaos, not simply inhabitants.
One might say that's exactly how to group the enemies together as the Other instead of seeing them as people.


Well, at least your reply can be used as an example of how to be wrong.


The inhabitants are objectively servants of Chaos. They live in the Cave of Chaos, where priests of Chaos have a Chapel of Evil Chaos and a Temple of Evil Chaos where people are sacrificed to their dark gods, and can find a demonic skull that can possess them.


So no, this isn't othering, this is an objective description of the Caves of Chaos.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Pat on September 21, 2020, 12:17:42 AM
In the case of Forgotten Realms for example, the "savage frontier" is actually full of human barbarian tribes IIRC, such as the one where Wulfgar (one of Drizzt's friends from the Icewind Dale trilogy) comes from, as well as dwarven settlements. It isn't just orcs and other humanoids that live there, and they hardly occupy the entire area. Many areas are just unsettled contested territories with few arable land, where humanoids may sometimes descend upon from farther away mountains where they actually live.

Also, my impression of humans being relative new in most fantasy settings is usually in relation to elves and dwarves, which are usually portrayed as being the older races that already occupied the lands before humans became numerous and prosperous and started expanding into their territories. Which is usually part of the reason given for elves being so aggressively protective of their forests, and would also be an example of an "indigenous" race that's not portrayed as vermin, but if anything as being superior to humans, but less numerous.

Waterdeep itself is build on the site of an ancient elven settlement according to the FR wiki (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Waterdeep) (though, it doesn't go into specifics on what happen to that settlement, if it fell to invasion or what), and started out as a trading post between (presumable human) northern tribesmen and southern merchants. It's hardly the site of human conquest of humanoid lands.
Compared to the vast expanses of the North, Icewind Dale is barely a speck, and one that's cut off from the rest of the lands, so it's not very representative. Though the North was definitely filled with barbarians in canon, but that's a later addition. The Uthgardt really didn't get any attention until FR5 The Savage Frontier, written by the inestimable (Paul/Jennell) Jaquays. Greenwood's earlier writings implied a wild frontier, a few scattered settlements, and a struggle against the encroaching hordes.

And so do some later writings. But not others. The FR is definitely inconsistent. I mentioned the time frame, and you alluded to it as well: The North has been a frontier for what, a thousand or so years? You'd think they'd have settled more than a isolated few cities. The ancient empires you mentioned are layers upon layers, from the Creator Races to Netheril to all the fallen elven or dwarven empires. But that's just how D&D works; over time, any sufficiently expansive setting will explore every possible theme and historical trope, and coherence be damned.

But exploring a frontier is one of the strongest, most enduring themes. It's in the modules, in Karameikos and Norwald in the Known Lands, in the Forgotten Realms. It's even in the hex types, which can be civilized, wilderness, or borderlands. It's often said that the Western is one of the game's major influences.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Pat on September 21, 2020, 12:25:29 AM
It's the exact lesson why I agree with those scientists who think Earth needs to STFU and stop sending random signals out to the galaxy with no idea who is listening because we're not even the Indians in that game.
Agreed. The universe may be a Dark Forest, (https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/the-dark-forest-theory-a-terrifying-explanation-of-why-we-havent-heard-from-aliens-yet) and letting everyone know where we are could be our doom. Even if the chance is tiny, it's not worth the risk, because we're talking about the survival of humanity.

Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: EOTB on September 21, 2020, 05:18:04 AM
Over-engaged fans insert meaning into their time sinks as others find faces in clouds
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Bruwulf on September 21, 2020, 06:25:22 AM
I admit I'm more than a little offended at the whole 'RPGs have no more depth than a violent video game'. That's kind of a slap to every module writer who's tried to write an adventure that was more than just 'go to point A and kill stuff', from our gracious host to ol' Gygax and Arneson.


I think it's also obnoxious that he keeps falling back on the "Every game presents orcs (or other 'outsider' figures) as slavering beasts and encourages people to slaughter then in job lots because they're nothing but pure evil" thing. Which kind of ignores the fact that, outside of D&D and it's dubious "Always Evil" entries in monster manuals, RPGs have been trying to "humanize" such races for decades. Even when I started playing in the late 80s, you could see that. Even D&D, outside of it's monster manuals, often tried to do that in modules or other settings than stock.


I mean, look, D&D grew out of wargaming roots. There was no particular need in a wargame to ask why the enemy needs killing. They're just games about tactics and strategy, with a wrapping of some setting to give a little flavor. Whether you go all the way down to the sort of ur-wargames like Chess and Go, or up to some of the modern recreationist wargames... The ultimate point is just the strategy and tactics, not the plot. So, yeah. Early D&D did tend to have a lot of "The enemy is just bad. Kill them. Don't ask questions." baked in, but... At least from what I can see looking back before I started playing in the late 80s, I think it's pretty clear that once the RPG was out of the bag, people started adding nuance almost immediately.


So it feels sort of like The Crayonster is arguing against a straw-man version of RPGs that doesn't really represent a majority sampling of the games played.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Bruwulf on September 21, 2020, 06:37:02 AM
But that's just how D&D works; over time, any sufficiently expansive setting will explore every possible theme and historical trope, and coherence be damned.


A bit of an aside, but this is what I detest about Forgotten Realms. There are, individually, some very neat settings in the Forgotten Realms. But they don't fit together sometimes. Not just setting, but themes and tones and scales. I find if you just sort of snip some of them out and use them on their own, it's far more... plausible, I suppose. The tonal shock of trying to cram Maztica and Realmspace and the Savage North and such all together, just... Yeah. Didn't work. Doesn't work.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Pat on September 21, 2020, 06:42:14 AM
A bit of an aside, but this is what I detest about Forgotten Realms. There are, individually, some very neat settings in the Forgotten Realms. But they don't fit together sometimes. Not just setting, but themes and tones and scales. I find if you just sort of snip some of them out and use them on their own, it's far more... plausible, I suppose. The tonal shock of trying to cram Maztica and Realmspace and the Savage North and such all together, just... Yeah. Didn't work. Doesn't work.
I think it's an inevitable consequence of 35 years of development by hundreds of writers. Hell, 3 years and a half a dozen writers would be hard to keep on theme. Though there is something to be a said for a pre-gray box Realms: Just Greenwood, just the Dragon magazine articles. They had a coherent theme, dripping with flavor and mystery. It was a dark and dangerous world, full of wonders to uncover. If you can survive....
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on September 21, 2020, 10:03:41 AM
A bit of an aside, but this is what I detest about Forgotten Realms. There are, individually, some very neat settings in the Forgotten Realms. But they don't fit together sometimes. Not just setting, but themes and tones and scales. I find if you just sort of snip some of them out and use them on their own, it's far more... plausible, I suppose. The tonal shock of trying to cram Maztica and Realmspace and the Savage North and such all together, just... Yeah. Didn't work. Doesn't work.
I think it's an inevitable consequence of 35 years of development by hundreds of writers. Hell, 3 years and a half a dozen writers would be hard to keep on theme. Though there is something to be a said for a pre-gray box Realms: Just Greenwood, just the Dragon magazine articles. They had a coherent theme, dripping with flavor and mystery. It was a dark and dangerous world, full of wonders to uncover. If you can survive....
Yes.  That, plus a lot of things are happily not decided yet. Start there and go your own direction, it works as well as many other settings.  If you happen to cherry pick some of the stuff that game later that fits in with your vision of the FR, that works too. 


Edit:  Wait, we are talking gaming on Pundit's forum.  Is that allowed. :)
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 21, 2020, 10:53:23 AM
I am reminded of a truism that Bruce Lee used regarding martial arts and learning: absorb what is useful, but discard what is not. The same applies to campaigns and settings. If you're a DM, YOU are the ultimate arbiter as to what goes into your setting.


All this fol-de-rol about orcs is just people wanting to impose THEIR views on YOUR campaign.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: The Spaniard on September 21, 2020, 11:24:09 AM
I am reminded of a truism that Bruce Lee used regarding martial arts and learning: absorb what is useful, but discard what is not. The same applies to campaigns and settings. If you're a DM, YOU are the ultimate arbiter as to what goes into your setting.


All this fol-de-rol about orcs is just people wanting to impose THEIR views on YOUR campaign.


Not only in your campaign, but also in everything else.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 21, 2020, 01:27:01 PM
So it feels sort of like The Crayonster is arguing against a straw-man version of RPGs that doesn't really represent a majority sampling of the games played.


I always figured that most people think of orcs as basically green-skinned humans and they're used as mooks more often than humans in order to emphasize that this is a fantasy setting. Also, I guess orcs are just cooler than humans or something? According to google, outside of Tolkien movies the fantasy artists generally seem to depict orcs as supermodels.


Whenever people went into detail on orcish culture, it was typically the official books like D&D and Pathfinder that went out of their way to paint orcs as being all evil all the time. All the fan-made cultures I remember reading simply treated them like humans, capable of both good and evil. Probably because writing evil cultures gets boring? IDK.


I see the SJW talking point that depicting orcs (or any fictional race) as inherently evil will somehow promote racist attitudes, but I don't see any evidence for that. In fact, I see far more evidence that as people mature they will reject the standard depiction of evil orcs as shallow and unrealistic.


I never really internalized that orcs were inherently evil. I grew up playing Warcraft 3.


Sure, orcs work fine as evil mooks for a generic evil overlord. But real life is complicated. Killing mooks is cathartic, but it doesn't satisfy the more complex tastes of the human mind.


Whenever I see people writing more morally agent orcs, the justification is always that alignment is unrealistic and not that writing evil cultures promotes racist thinking.


I'm sorry if I come across as an evil SJW who wants to take away your fun. I'm sorry for offending you and I will try to be more conscientious in the future.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 21, 2020, 01:53:38 PM
So it feels sort of like The Crayonster is arguing against a straw-man version of RPGs that doesn't really represent a majority sampling of the games played.


I always figured that most people think of orcs as basically green-skinned humans and they're used as mooks more often than humans in order to emphasize that this is a fantasy setting. Also, I guess orcs are just cooler than humans or something? According to google, outside of Tolkien movies the fantasy artists generally seem to depict orcs as supermodels.


Whenever people went into detail on orcish culture, it was typically the official books like D&D and Pathfinder that went out of their way to paint orcs as being all evil all the time. All the fan-made cultures I remember reading simply treated them like humans, capable of both good and evil. Probably because writing evil cultures gets boring? IDK.


I see the SJW talking point that depicting orcs (or any fictional race) as inherently evil will somehow promote racist attitudes, but I don't see any evidence for that. In fact, I see far more evidence that as people mature they will reject the standard depiction of evil orcs as shallow and unrealistic.


I never really internalized that orcs were inherently evil. I grew up playing Warcraft 3.


Sure, orcs work fine as evil mooks for a generic evil overlord. But real life is complicated. Killing mooks is cathartic, but it doesn't satisfy the more complex tastes of the human mind.


Whenever I see people writing more morally agent orcs, the justification is always that alignment is unrealistic and not that writing evil cultures promotes racist thinking.


I'm sorry if I come across as an evil SJW who wants to take away your fun. I'm sorry for offending you and I will try to be more conscientious in the future.


Would you like some cheese with that whine?


The problem is some drippy SJWs decided to "deconstruct" D&D as part of their agenda to deconstruct the culture and spread their ideology.
Their mistake is in comparing real world wartime propoganda and prejudices to fictional settings where, in the context of the fiction, creatures can objectively be irredeemably evil, or at least be as guilty of their reputations as the text says they are.
And as a complication, there's no one true definition of "Orc", between settings or campaigns or even systems.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 21, 2020, 03:36:48 PM
So it feels sort of like The Crayonster is arguing against a straw-man version of RPGs that doesn't really represent a majority sampling of the games played.


I always figured that most people think of orcs as basically green-skinned humans and they're used as mooks more often than humans in order to emphasize that this is a fantasy setting. Also, I guess orcs are just cooler than humans or something? According to google, outside of Tolkien movies the fantasy artists generally seem to depict orcs as supermodels.


Whenever people went into detail on orcish culture, it was typically the official books like D&D and Pathfinder that went out of their way to paint orcs as being all evil all the time. All the fan-made cultures I remember reading simply treated them like humans, capable of both good and evil. Probably because writing evil cultures gets boring? IDK.


I see the SJW talking point that depicting orcs (or any fictional race) as inherently evil will somehow promote racist attitudes, but I don't see any evidence for that. In fact, I see far more evidence that as people mature they will reject the standard depiction of evil orcs as shallow and unrealistic.


I never really internalized that orcs were inherently evil. I grew up playing Warcraft 3.


Sure, orcs work fine as evil mooks for a generic evil overlord. But real life is complicated. Killing mooks is cathartic, but it doesn't satisfy the more complex tastes of the human mind.


Whenever I see people writing more morally agent orcs, the justification is always that alignment is unrealistic and not that writing evil cultures promotes racist thinking.


I'm sorry if I come across as an evil SJW who wants to take away your fun. I'm sorry for offending you and I will try to be more conscientious in the future.


Would you like some cheese with that whine?


The problem is some drippy SJWs decided to "deconstruct" D&D as part of their agenda to deconstruct the culture and spread their ideology.
Their mistake is in comparing real world wartime propoganda and prejudices to fictional settings where, in the context of the fiction, creatures can objectively be irredeemably evil, or at least be as guilty of their reputations as the text says they are.
And as a complication, there's no one true definition of "Orc", between settings or campaigns or even systems.


Yes
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: DocJones on September 30, 2020, 06:53:50 PM
I can't imagine Jane Austen writing To Reign in Hell or Elric of Melniboné, either. I can't imagine her writing outside the genre that she wrote within.
I really enjoyed her "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies".  Top notch.  :-)
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: David Johansen on October 02, 2020, 08:31:53 AM
I need to sculpt some blinged out orks with afros.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: HappyDaze on October 03, 2020, 05:02:58 AM
I need to sculpt some blinged out orks with afros.
I have a vague memory of a Shadowrun product that already did this, but the orks may have had dreadlocks instead of afros... It's been many years.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: VisionStorm on October 03, 2020, 01:29:41 PM
Random google search...

(https://i.redd.it/lxu7u2omye641.jpg)

Also cutesie orc gurl...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/76/92/2076926aa51303b2b30ca19c6ef40633.png)

Shooped orc-fro

(https://i.imgur.com/5Jss1iI.png)

How half-orcs are made... (I wanna keep that girl)

(https://talenthouse-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/c_limit,f_auto,fl_progressive,h_1280,w_1280/v1517774502/user-642916/profile/iciwirqm1wdkni9czjgy.jpg)
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on October 03, 2020, 01:41:35 PM
Are orcs supposed to be sexy?
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: VisionStorm on October 03, 2020, 02:24:46 PM
Are orcs supposed to be sexy?

Only if they're PCs, important NPCs, random orc gurls or orcs in promo-art trying to get you to buy products where you can play orcs.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: CRKrueger on October 05, 2020, 01:29:31 PM
So it feels sort of like The Crayonster is arguing against a straw-man version of RPGs that doesn't really represent a majority sampling of the games played.


I always figured that most people think of orcs as basically green-skinned humans and they're used as mooks more often than humans in order to emphasize that this is a fantasy setting. Also, I guess orcs are just cooler than humans or something? According to google, outside of Tolkien movies the fantasy artists generally seem to depict orcs as supermodels.


Whenever people went into detail on orcish culture, it was typically the official books like D&D and Pathfinder that went out of their way to paint orcs as being all evil all the time. All the fan-made cultures I remember reading simply treated them like humans, capable of both good and evil. Probably because writing evil cultures gets boring? IDK.


I see the SJW talking point that depicting orcs (or any fictional race) as inherently evil will somehow promote racist attitudes, but I don't see any evidence for that. In fact, I see far more evidence that as people mature they will reject the standard depiction of evil orcs as shallow and unrealistic.


I never really internalized that orcs were inherently evil. I grew up playing Warcraft 3.


Sure, orcs work fine as evil mooks for a generic evil overlord. But real life is complicated. Killing mooks is cathartic, but it doesn't satisfy the more complex tastes of the human mind.


Whenever I see people writing more morally agent orcs, the justification is always that alignment is unrealistic and not that writing evil cultures promotes racist thinking.


I'm sorry if I come across as an evil SJW who wants to take away your fun. I'm sorry for offending you and I will try to be more conscientious in the future.
Just don’t be a self-righteous prick filled with fake moral superiority and you’ll be fine.

As far as Orcs go, depends on the world.  In Greyhawk, my Orcs wage war for the vengeance of Gruumsh, based on the Roger Moore origin story in Dragon.  Some tribes have come to worship Hextor or Iuz and follow the dictates of those gods.   Orc culture is Lawful/Evil and Orcs have been bred for conflict, violence and physical superiority.  Can a smart Orc learn to behave oneself in human society?  Sure, but that’s not going to change what they are.

40k Orks are a fungoid bio-weapon species created by the Old Ones/Slann a billion years ago in their war against the Necrons.  They have an incredible amount of genetically coded knowledge, but it’s all related to warfare.  Some Orks roam as mercenaries and pirates, so are capable of working with other races, but most follow the biggest warboss in fights against other orks until a warboss collects a large enough army to start invading planets.

Warcraft Orcs are...Warcraft Orcs, basically just another race like humans, dwarves and elves, unless they have been corrupted and serve the demons.

Shadowrun Orcs are different still, as are Middle-Earth orcs, etc.

None of them are racist stand-in bullshit. 
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: CRKrueger on October 05, 2020, 01:57:23 PM
And you lost me again.


Have you ever played "cowboys and indians"? Do you recognize that the history the game is based on is very fucked up? Can you still stomach the game while knowing its horrific roots?


We can apply similar logic to D&D. It's an American game whose world building took cues from the colonization of the American West. There were tons of racist tracts saying that indigenous peoples were inferior and should be exterminated. Saying that the way humanoids are depicted resembles racist tracts should be a value-neutral statement, if it is indeed accurate and that will vary by setting, not an indictment of players and designers.


Yeah, in Setting A, the player race B view the monster race C using the type of language that Earth Culture D used to genocide Earth Culture E.

So what?

You’re missing one very important point...

The terms used by Earth Culture D to justify attacking Earth Culture E were lies and propaganda.

The terms used by Player Race B to justify attacking Monster Race C are the truth.

See the difference and why making a connection to real world relations is asinine and pointless?

If in Star Frontiers, the Vrusk were the enemies instead of the Sathar, since the Vrusk are insectoid, soldiers very may well refer to them as cockroaches.  That has nothing to do with the insult white have for blacks in South Africa or that blacks have for each other in other parts of Africa.

It has no connection and no relevance at all.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: David Johansen on October 05, 2020, 02:13:51 PM
I recall there was some outrage at 2300AD's use of "Kafer" for the bug race that gets smarter when they are fighting.  Kafer being a South African racial slur.  I expect it was news to the designers.
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Brad on October 09, 2020, 05:01:18 PM
Thought this was appropriate to the thread: https://youtu.be/K23Ok9btcF8
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Trond on October 11, 2020, 09:47:54 PM
....and speaking of SJWs. The do really resemble religious fanatics, almost to the level of caricature:

(https://i.redd.it/kx54t199wjs51.jpg)
Title: Re: Is there any monster the SJWs don't see as Black People?
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 12, 2020, 08:15:04 AM
....and speaking of SJWs. The do really resemble religious fanatics, almost to the level of caricature:

(Image snipped)
And because I am a twisted bastard, my mind jumps to THIS.

(https://i.imgur.com/LJETpGl.png)