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Author Topic: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!  (Read 199158 times)

Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #855 on: November 26, 2021, 12:14:18 PM »
Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.


The things I'm saying that are accurate observations of what's going on, you mean? I really hope you and the other lab rats are still around 6-12 months from now so you can see how wrong you were. Not that you'll admit it.

Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines? Is it your opinion the things others are calling vaccines and you call not vaccines are making people's immune systems worse and more susceptible to Covid infections and infection by other things as well?
Oh look, even more exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news.

Why don't you just address what Kiero said, instead of trying to lure out an an answer that you can twist so it sounds like Kiero is saying what you want Kiero to say? The argument that vaccines are harming natural defenses and causing more evolutionary variation is NOT the same as saying that the vaccines cause covid, but there's plenty there to address without these stupid games.

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #856 on: November 26, 2021, 12:18:52 PM »
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.

That was the accepted definition of a vaccine before 2020. Not "absolute immunity" but actually prevents infection.

No, you missed my point, and much as it pains me at say, HappyDaze is right that they didn't disappear in summer 2021 as they did in summer 2020. Israel went into lockdown this summer because rates surged (whilst they were merrily jabbing everyone).

He said it didn't fade in the summer of 2021. That would match my first hand observation that July-September were particularly bad for C19 in Florida (and reportedly in several other states too, though I did not directly observe it there). That's not a typical time for seasonal sniffles to spike, but rather (as you noted) to fade--which is not what happened this year.

And critically, that didn't happen in 2020. The normal seasonal recession of the virus happened then, before we had any jabs.

Flash forward to 2021, when in the UK the programme had been going on for 6 months, and no trough in summer.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 12:30:10 PM by Kiero »
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Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #857 on: November 26, 2021, 12:19:18 PM »
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.
He said it didn't fade in the summer of 2021. That would match my first hand observation that July-September were particularly bad for C19 in Florida (and reportedly in several other states too, though I did not directly observe it there). That's not a typical time for seasonal sniffles to spike, but rather (as you noted) to fade--which is not what happened this year.
Oops. Yep, I inverted what Kiero said.

It's a weird virus. It's definitely following some seasonal patterns, but not others. Right now, we're seeing a surge that seems seasonal in nature, but Florida does break that pattern.

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #858 on: November 26, 2021, 12:21:35 PM »
OK so is it fair to characterize your view, in summary, as the so-called vaccines which you are against are causing Covid to spread more in society, and harm people more in society, IE they basically are what is causing Covid to be a problem?

Stop trying to lead the witness. I've said repeatedly the jabs do fuck all to protect people and damage the immune systems of those who've been jabbed. That's without getting into the vascular damage.

They created the Delta variant and this new Botswana variant too. Classic vaccine escape.

Oops. Yep, I inverted what Kiero said.

It's a weird virus. It's definitely following some seasonal patterns, but not others. Right now, we're seeing a surge that seems seasonal in nature, but Florida does break that pattern.

It's not weird virus, that's what happens when you jab during an outbreak. That's exactly what virologists were warning of when saying the jab programmes were stupid.

Now we have the "Botswana" variant which ignores the anaemic "immunity" of the jabs altogether (though the Delta/Indian variant was already doing that).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 12:23:22 PM by Kiero »
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HappyDaze

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #859 on: November 26, 2021, 12:26:55 PM »
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.

That was the accepted definition of a vaccine before 2020. Not "absolute immunity" but actually prevents infection.

No, you missed my point, and much as it pains me at say, HappyDaze is right that they didn't disappear in summer 2021 as they did in summer 2020. Israel went into lockdown this summer because rates surged (whilst they were merrily jabbing everyone).

He said it didn't fade in the summer of 2021. That would match my first hand observation that July-September were particularly bad for C19 in Florida (and reportedly in several other states too, though I did not directly observe it there). That's not a typical time for seasonal sniffles to spike, but rather (as you noted) to fade--which is not what happened this year.

And critically, that didn't happen in 2020. The normal seasonal recession of the virus happened then, before we had any jabs.

Flash forward to 2020, when in the UK the programme had been going on for 6 months, and no trough in summer.
Do you believe that a single year, the one in which Covid first appeared, is sufficient to predict how it should behave every year?

Do you believe that the introduction of the vaccines is the only variable that has changed from 2020 to 2021?

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #860 on: November 26, 2021, 12:29:33 PM »
Do you believe that a single year, the one in which Covid first appeared, is sufficient to predict how it should behave every year?

Do you believe that the introduction of the vaccines is the only variable that has changed from 2020 to 2021?

Coronaviruses are endemic and seasonal. They appear every single year. They have a normal season. Not even this strain is particularly novel, given it's a spin on SARS-COV-1 of 2003.

Yes, that's the most significant change impact this virus alone, since it was a widespread programme of mass jabbing in a very short space of time.
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Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #861 on: November 26, 2021, 12:30:15 PM »
Oops. Yep, I inverted what Kiero said.

It's a weird virus. It's definitely following some seasonal patterns, but not others. Right now, we're seeing a surge that seems seasonal in nature, but Florida does break that pattern.

It's not weird virus, that's what happens when you jab during an outbreak. That's exactly what virologists were warning of when saying the jab programmes were stupid.

Now we have the "Botswana" variant which ignores the anaemic "immunity" of the jabs altogether (though the Delta/Indian variant was already doing that).
No, it's a very weird virus. The mortality profile almost perfectly matches natural mortality, which is completely different from most other diseases, which often disproportionately affect the young and babies. It's also spread seemingly without any regard for the countermeasures put in place, except for locking down borders of island states. Some of this strangeness has turned out to be the fog of war: We have a much better grasp of the cardiovascular implications and aerosolization than a year ago, for instance. But it remains an very atypical disease in many ways, and there are bands of uncertainty about many things, like its seasonal nature or what's going on in Africa.

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #862 on: November 26, 2021, 12:35:16 PM »
No, it's a very weird virus. The mortality profile almost perfectly matches natural mortality, which is completely different from most other diseases, which often disproportionately affect the young and babies. It's also spread seemingly without any regard for the countermeasures put in place, except for locking down borders of island states. Some of this strangeness has turned out to be the fog of war: We have a much better grasp of the cardiovascular implications and aerosolization than a year ago, for instance. But it remains an very atypical disease in many ways, and there are bands of uncertainty about many things, like its seasonal nature.

Flu kills the very old and very young. Pneumonia kills the old. We've seen other viruses like this before. You have an immediate problem in distinguishing it when both of the former are now lumped in with the same stats as covid.

Questionable that lockdowns did anything to slow spread (though they certainly slowed the arrival of herd immunity). None of the measures made any meaningful difference, most of them are nothing more than theatre to make people think they're doing something.

There have been coronaviruses every year before this one (the cousin of this was last prevalent in 2003). Unless someone has actually been tinkering with it, the other health implications are nothing new.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 12:58:23 PM by Kiero »
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Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #863 on: November 26, 2021, 12:35:39 PM »
Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.


The things I'm saying that are accurate observations of what's going on, you mean? I really hope you and the other lab rats are still around 6-12 months from now so you can see how wrong you were. Not that you'll admit it.

Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines? Is it your opinion the things others are calling vaccines and you call not vaccines are making people's immune systems worse and more susceptible to Covid infections and infection by other things as well?
Oh look, even more exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news.

Why don't you just address what Kiero said, instead of trying to lure out an an answer that you can twist so it sounds like Kiero is saying what you want Kiero to say? The argument that vaccines are harming natural defenses and causing more evolutionary variation is NOT the same as saying that the vaccines cause covid, but there's plenty there to address without these stupid games.

Oh for fuck sake if a person thinks the vaccines are damaging immune systems which leads to covid spreading a lot more and harming a lot more people, that is fairly characterized as saying the vaccine is causing covid.

Only your stupid linguistic games could possibly spin that as some massive "exaggeration" when if we were talking about any non-hotbutton topic everyone would agree that if X leads to a whole lot more of Y then it's ordinary language to then say X is causing Y. For example if we said government handouts are causing inflation, nobody would blink even though they don't mean it literally directly is the inflation itself or the only possible contribution to inflation - we'd all grok the sentence handouts cause inflation without claiming that is some wild exageration.

Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #864 on: November 26, 2021, 12:39:46 PM »
Oh for fuck sake if a person thinks the vaccines are damaging immune systems which leads to covid spreading a lot more and harming a lot more people, that is fairly characterized as saying the vaccine is causing covid.
Changing what someone said into something different that you think sounds worse is the exact opposite of a fair characterization of what they said.

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #865 on: November 26, 2021, 12:59:32 PM »
Oh for fuck sake if a person thinks the vaccines are damaging immune systems which leads to covid spreading a lot more and harming a lot more people, that is fairly characterized as saying the vaccine is causing covid.

Not vaccines plural, these mRNA jabs.

The flu jab doesn't damage the immune system, it's just useless. Relatively harmless, but useless.
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dkabq

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #866 on: November 26, 2021, 01:25:06 PM »
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.

Immunity (i.e., taking the vaccine results in you not getting the disease) is in the definition of vaccine efficacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_efficacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_rate

I thought it was interesting that there are instances where the vaccine under consideration increases the risk to the participants.


Shasarak

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #867 on: November 26, 2021, 04:14:33 PM »
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.

I am not the rest of the world and on the other hand I also support the decategorisation of the Covid shot from the vaccine category.

Lets keep that term for medicines that actually vaccinate people against things.
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Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #868 on: November 26, 2021, 09:04:31 PM »
Here are the Federal OSHA rules for the US vax mandate. Note: It does in fact include weekly testing as an alternative to vaccination. Weekly testing does in fact include the "spit in a tube" version.

dkabq

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #869 on: November 26, 2021, 09:30:34 PM »
Here are the Federal OSHA rules for the US vax mandate. Note: It does in fact include weekly testing as an alternative to vaccination. Weekly testing does in fact include the "spit in a tube" version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6QNsNMFH5s
Fucking liar. There is a special circle of hell waiting for him, St. Fauci, and all of the other covid hypocrites.