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Author Topic: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!  (Read 199004 times)

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #690 on: October 06, 2021, 09:06:45 PM »
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #691 on: October 06, 2021, 10:14:51 PM »
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.

Zelen

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #692 on: October 06, 2021, 11:47:26 PM »
Where are the posts in question? Reality is, context and tone are important and difficult to judge. I really don't trust the FBI to be either impartial or honest. For the average (low IQ, uninformed) citizen, if you're dragged in to sit on a jury by the FBI you are going to do whatever they want you to because they are the FBI and you just want to get back to your life.

DM_Curt

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #693 on: October 07, 2021, 09:48:29 AM »
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
  No reasonable person would think they're gonna die because there's a conspiracy to lick their produce that they can't possibly rinse (which they should anyway, because people'shands are dirty), or the outside of sealed containers.  Again, if it's a real pandemic,  you should be washing things anyway, like your hands and whatever other people touch.
A shortage of reasonable people is not that poster's fault, but the fault of everyone who is propagandizing and exaggerating the Covid risk. Jail the newscasters too, then.

Fire actually does kill people who aren't already unhealthy.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 09:59:35 AM by DM_Curt »

oggsmash

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #694 on: October 07, 2021, 10:10:25 AM »
  Though i do think there should be a criminal penalty for saying stupid shit about spreading diseases licking things....when I lay it down beside DA's who decide crippling and fatal gun fights are simply mutual combat, I wonder if everyone is living inside the same sets of laws.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #695 on: October 07, 2021, 10:37:45 AM »
  Though i do think there should be a criminal penalty for saying stupid shit about spreading diseases licking things....when I lay it down beside DA's who decide crippling and fatal gun fights are simply mutual combat, I wonder if everyone is living inside the same sets of laws.
They're not.

On the upshot, I guess this means the code duello applies in Chicago now.

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #696 on: October 07, 2021, 12:56:08 PM »
  Though i do think there should be a criminal penalty for saying stupid shit about spreading diseases licking things....when I lay it down beside DA's who decide crippling and fatal gun fights are simply mutual combat, I wonder if everyone is living inside the same sets of laws.
You mean, living inside the same reality. Man, I don’t see how society will recover from this insane stupidity happening nowadays.
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DM_Curt

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #697 on: October 07, 2021, 01:47:13 PM »
We are definitely NOT all living in the same set of laws or realities.

DocJones

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #698 on: October 07, 2021, 07:20:44 PM »
Interesting new study.
Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States
Also how do you square the notion that we had ~375K deaths in all of 2020 before vaccinations were available but have ~325K so far in 2021 after the vaccinations were available.   

Shasarak

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #699 on: October 07, 2021, 07:57:28 PM »
  Though i do think there should be a criminal penalty for saying stupid shit about spreading diseases licking things....when I lay it down beside DA's who decide crippling and fatal gun fights are simply mutual combat, I wonder if everyone is living inside the same sets of laws.

What about if you are the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the Chief Medical Advisor to the President advising people not to wear masks during a viral pandemic?

Should there be a criminal penalty for that?
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Zelen

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #700 on: October 07, 2021, 08:16:39 PM »
  Though i do think there should be a criminal penalty for saying stupid shit about spreading diseases licking things....when I lay it down beside DA's who decide crippling and fatal gun fights are simply mutual combat, I wonder if everyone is living inside the same sets of laws.

What about if you are the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the Chief Medical Advisor to the President advising people not to wear masks during a viral pandemic?

Should there be a criminal penalty for that?

No, because that's actually the position supported by the lion's share of high-quality evidence, and all of the real world evidence.

However, there should be a criminal penalty for circumventing a ban on gain-of-lethality research and lying about it & covering it up.

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #701 on: October 07, 2021, 09:02:03 PM »
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.

Pat it's a legit example of what would be real criminal speech. It was used in law school by professors as a clear easy example of a line you can draw with speech. But you as usual instinctively gadfly it while continuing to not even talk about the issue inherent in the topic.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #702 on: October 07, 2021, 09:04:37 PM »
Where are the posts in question? Reality is, context and tone are important and difficult to judge. I really don't trust the FBI to be either impartial or honest. For the average (low IQ, uninformed) citizen, if you're dragged in to sit on a jury by the FBI you are going to do whatever they want you to because they are the FBI and you just want to get back to your life.

It's not the FBI's decision it was a jury's decision. He's convicted by a jury over these incidents. Plenty of cases brought by the FBI are not convictions. This is the fucking system after all.

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #703 on: October 07, 2021, 09:08:12 PM »
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
  No reasonable person would think they're gonna die because there's a conspiracy to lick their produce that they can't possibly rinse (which they should anyway, because people'shands are dirty), or the outside of sealed containers.  Again, if it's a real pandemic,  you should be washing things anyway, like your hands and whatever other people touch.
A shortage of reasonable people is not that poster's fault, but the fault of everyone who is propagandizing and exaggerating the Covid risk. Jail the newscasters too, then.

Fire actually does kill people who aren't already unhealthy.

The jury did in fact find that a reasonable person could believe they would die from that. And it's because he said he had ALREADY had it done, that food people had already consumed had been infected intentionally. As for the "already unhealthy" WTF man you don't get to pull the "but covid only kills unhealthy or old people" bullshit with THIS kind of case because guess what - unhealthy or old people still have a right to not have their food intentionally infected with a disease that would kill them. They still need to eat and would have had no reason to think their food sources were unsafe.

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #704 on: October 07, 2021, 09:10:31 PM »
Interesting new study.
Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States
Also how do you square the notion that we had ~375K deaths in all of 2020 before vaccinations were available but have ~325K so far in 2021 after the vaccinations were available.

Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.