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Author Topic: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!  (Read 22042 times)

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #525 on: August 25, 2021, 02:25:19 PM »
As for private businesses - actually that's their business. If they want to mandate their employees get an FDA approved vaccine to work there, I am OK with that. I didn't choose to do that with my business, but if some other business wants to do that I think they have every right to do that. I don't think it's up to me or the Government to tell a private business what to do concerning that kind of issue for their employees.
I strongly oppose that for two reasons. One, privacy. Companies shouldn't be able to demand access to the confidential information between a patient and a doctor. Two, they're not making the choice as free actors. The government has exerted great pressure, including implicit threats.

They are making the choice as free actors. No private business has been forced to do this. I own a business, I've felt zero "threats" about it. You're being hyperbolic again.

As for "privacy" that's bunk. HIPPA applies to specific health-related entities, such as insurance providers, health-care clearinghouses, health-care providers and their business associates.  Not to private businesses outside the health care field.

I routinely ask from a note from an employees doctor if they are going to be out sick and nobody has ever claimed "but my privacy!" about that.

All the privacy rules are on health care providers to stop them from sharing information about you without you consent, and none are on private businesses from asking you to provide that information to them from you or else you cannot work there. The business has exactly the same right to ask you to provide that information as you have to decide to not provide it and not work there. Don't be a fucking socialist prick and act like businesses cannot ask about vaccination records. It's a private business for fuck's sake! The government has no right to dictate what they do with that issue. I find it hilarious that apparently you're suddenly pro-business regulations?
By that logic, people who pay protection money to the Mafia are acting of their own free will, without any coercion. When the government works hand in hand with many large companies, hands out moneys and favors to their favorites, regulates them, and is threatening to pass laws that will hinder businesses if the businesses don't comply, they're not acting as free agents. It's coercion.

I'm familiar with HIPPA compliance. I'm also familiar with the Bill of Rights. But neither are natural rights, they're laws. And natural rights are not defined by or circumscribed by laws. They're innate, inalienable, and laws that aren't completely unjust should defend them. Starting with a legalistic argument is invalid, because I was never talking about how the law is currently interpreted. I'm talking about basic rights.

And your analogy isn't comparable. If you're ill, and taking a day off, a doctor's note provides a justification for why you shouldn't be penalized for missing work. It also doesn't have to provide any details, beyond that you were sick. That's very different from demanding workers submit themselves to a specific medical procedure of dubious efficacy and unknown long term risks to even go back to work in the first place. Should private businesses be allowed to beat their workers? Let's say it's in your contract. "It's their private business!", right? Socialism! No. Basic rights still exist.

Oh for fuck's sake not only is the right to privacy not contained in any natural laws written about by any philosopher prior to the founding of the nation, but the US Supreme Court MANUFACTURED THAT RIGHT FROM WHOLE CLOTH when they wrote the Roe vs. Wade decision. That's why they had to come up with that bullshit "Penumbra of the amendments" spin to try and create a right which they knew damn well never previously existed. We all grew up in an era when our home addresses and phone numbers were listed in a big free book everyone got! Privacy was not and was never one of the "natural rights" behind our nation. It's a "new" right created for a "living Constitution" and even with that "flexible interpretation" it never extended to private businesses asking employees for vaccine records. In fact, businesses which send their employees to foreign nations ROUTINELY have always asked for vaccine records for that job BECAUSE IT'S A REQUIREMENT TO TRAVEL. Nobody before claimed this was some privacy right.

Doctors notes provide defense from BEING FIRED for being absent. Not for being paid. You can get a few paid sick days a year by law, but not that many. Beyond that, it's just a reason used to not fire your ass.

As for "beating their workers" hey guess what, there are boxers and wrestlers hired just for that! Nobody is forced to accept a job as a boxer, but if they do accept a job as a boxer they're going to get hit, often, and by the businesses boxing sparing partner. It depends on the job. Nobody has to take that job.

Businesses can freely ask for vaccination records to work there. You are free to not work there. Take your petty little business regulations and shove them. You sound like a Union thug.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 02:28:01 PM by Mistwell »

oggsmash

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #526 on: August 25, 2021, 02:25:44 PM »
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #527 on: August 25, 2021, 02:27:10 PM »
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.


Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #528 on: August 25, 2021, 02:29:04 PM »
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #529 on: August 25, 2021, 02:29:35 PM »
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.

oggsmash

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #530 on: August 25, 2021, 02:30:35 PM »
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

  Well, I do not care what "people" did.  I did not use the FDA as a reason to do, or not do anything. 

Ghostmaker

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #531 on: August 25, 2021, 02:41:14 PM »
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
How many hairs are you going to split this time to 'prove' it's not being forced? Do you need help moving those goalposts around?

oggsmash

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #532 on: August 25, 2021, 02:44:26 PM »
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.

  And maybe no one will.  Maybe Australia is not a beta test.  Maybe the government will not pressure businesses (state nor federal).   But I do think mandating masks is a short step from mandating a shot.  Normies, boomers, and the regular person will accept just about anything as long as you remember to slowly raise the temperature.

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #533 on: August 25, 2021, 04:04:19 PM »
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
How many hairs are you going to split this time to 'prove' it's not being forced? Do you need help moving those goalposts around?

It is not being forced. No goalpost moved. You're pretending pressure is force. It's bullshit. You know it's bullshit. Nobody is being forced to get the vaccine no matter how many times you claim that's happening because of "pressure" to get it. Any more than the "pressure" to not get an abortion is "forcing" people to not get an abortion, or pressure to "eat healthy" is forcing you to eat healthy. You know full well what "forced" means, like seatbelt laws or motorcycle helmet laws, and this isn't "forced."

But keep whining bitching moaning and complaining like a fucking snowflake SJW that "societal pressure to conform" is the same as "forced" to do something, you pussy. It's amusing to see you flip like this to behaving like those you've condemned for years once it's an issue which triggers you. Wahhh I am being "forced" to remove my nose ring to work at an upscale retail store. Wahhh I'm being "forced" to get a vaccine to work at a retail store which deals with the public on a constant basis. Wahh wahh wahh, I'm triggered! My rights!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 04:09:50 PM by Mistwell »

moonsweeper

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #534 on: August 25, 2021, 04:17:40 PM »
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

1.  Because the approval administrative procedures were circumvented the FDA approval is questionable, at best...

2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

3.  Technically they are still an experimental medical treatment because they have not completed the required trials yet...  (FDA approval and 'experimental' are not necessarily mutually exclusive)

4.  Since you run a small business, have you mandated a shot yet...or are you just CYA right now because people have only blathered about HIPPA/privacy and nobody has brought up the ADA yet so you haven't actually had to deal with it?

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dkabq

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #535 on: August 25, 2021, 04:41:15 PM »
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
How many hairs are you going to split this time to 'prove' it's not being forced? Do you need help moving those goalposts around?

It is not being forced. No goalpost moved. You're pretending pressure is force. It's bullshit. You know it's bullshit. Nobody is being forced to get the vaccine no matter how many times you claim that's happening because of "pressure" to get it. Any more than the "pressure" to not get an abortion is "forcing" people to not get an abortion, or pressure to "eat healthy" is forcing you to eat healthy. You know full well what "forced" means, like seatbelt laws or motorcycle helmet laws, and this isn't "forced."

But keep whining bitching moaning and complaining like a fucking snowflake SJW that "societal pressure to conform" is the same as "forced" to do something, you pussy. It's amusing to see you flip like this to behaving like those you've condemned for years once it's an issue which triggers you. Wahhh I am being "forced" to remove my nose ring to work at an upscale retail store. Wahhh I'm being "forced" to get a vaccine to work at a retail store which deals with the public on a constant basis. Wahh wahh wahh, I'm triggered! My rights!

By that logic, someone telling me that if I don't give them $xxxx/month they will burn my house down, isn't "forcing" me to give them money, they are "pressuring" me. And I guess that by the same token, the only way I would ever be "forced" to give someone my money would be if they literally forced my hand to retrieve my wallet from my back pocket and hand it over to them. Anything short of that (e.g., the threat of being shot, having the shit kicked out me, etc.) is just "pressure". Pedantic, but fair enough.

Instead, let's use the more precise term "coerce". Hence, one isn't being "forced" to get vaxxed (i.e., physically restrained while someone injects you), rather you are being "coerced" to get the vax by being threatened with losing your job, not being able to travel by air, etc.

FWIW, if you Google "define coercion" the similar list includes "force" and "pressure".

Regards.



deadDMwalking

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #536 on: August 25, 2021, 04:54:36 PM »
Yeah, rules and laws that prohibit me from putting other people in potential danger (like smoking in bars) infringe on my rights.

Why didn't we protest those laws again? 
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #537 on: August 25, 2021, 05:02:43 PM »
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

1.  Because the approval administrative procedures were circumvented the FDA approval is questionable, at best...

2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

3.  Technically they are still an experimental medical treatment because they have not completed the required trials yet...  (FDA approval and 'experimental' are not necessarily mutually exclusive)

4.  Since you run a small business, have you mandated a shot yet...or are you just CYA right now because people have only blathered about HIPPA/privacy and nobody has brought up the ADA yet so you haven't actually had to deal with it?

1. The approval administrative procedure was not circumvented for this latest approval. I asked earlier for someone to provide a link supporting that claim and...crickets. Lots of people like to assert it, but nobody seems able to willing to actually back that claim up with anything other than their own personal guess.

2. The approved shot IS the existing shot. No change.

3. They did complete the required trials. Again, I keep asking for a link to claims like this and...crickets.

4. I have not mandated the shot. ADA doesn't cover not getting the vaccine - it's not a disability. Now if someone comes with a doctors note about how they are immunocompromised and the vaccine would not be in order, that would be respected under the ADA (if I were requiring the shot - which I am not). 

All of my employees got vaccinated on their own. I did influence it, but not how you might expect. In fact I never even said they should get it. I only said if anyone wanted to get it I would help them get the vaccine. And I told them I had gotten it. But I also told them they were not required to get it to work here and I would keep it private if people got it or didn't get it.

All I did was obtain approval from the City of LA to treat my employees as "health care support manufacturing" because we were making masks (and also donating many to local hospitals). And because "health care support" was one of the earlier vaccine check-boxes at a time when not everyone could get the vaccine, I offered my employees a personalized letter in their name addressed to the vaccine administrators explaining their job included the manufacturing of face masks, some of which were donated to local hospitals, and if the administrator thought it appropriate to please render vaccine services for that employee.

Because this was "special" permission to get the vaccine before some others could get it, my employees jumped on the opportunity and got the vaccine. Never mind that literally the very next week it was opened up to a lot more people to get the shot. And also never mind that not one vaccine administrator even looked at the letter. The mere idea that they were getting some sort of "privilege" that others couldn't get was enticing for them to get the vaccine. And every single one of them did, without any mandate or pressure.

dkabq

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #538 on: August 25, 2021, 05:03:16 PM »
Yeah, rules and laws that prohibit me from putting other people in potential danger (like smoking in bars) infringe on my rights.

Why didn't we protest those laws again?

https://noagendaassets.com/enc/1628454543.058_covidvaccineconfusionfromtiktok.mp3

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #539 on: August 25, 2021, 05:09:54 PM »
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
How many hairs are you going to split this time to 'prove' it's not being forced? Do you need help moving those goalposts around?

It is not being forced. No goalpost moved. You're pretending pressure is force. It's bullshit. You know it's bullshit. Nobody is being forced to get the vaccine no matter how many times you claim that's happening because of "pressure" to get it. Any more than the "pressure" to not get an abortion is "forcing" people to not get an abortion, or pressure to "eat healthy" is forcing you to eat healthy. You know full well what "forced" means, like seatbelt laws or motorcycle helmet laws, and this isn't "forced."

But keep whining bitching moaning and complaining like a fucking snowflake SJW that "societal pressure to conform" is the same as "forced" to do something, you pussy. It's amusing to see you flip like this to behaving like those you've condemned for years once it's an issue which triggers you. Wahhh I am being "forced" to remove my nose ring to work at an upscale retail store. Wahhh I'm being "forced" to get a vaccine to work at a retail store which deals with the public on a constant basis. Wahh wahh wahh, I'm triggered! My rights!

By that logic, someone telling me that if I don't give them $xxxx/month they will burn my house down, isn't "forcing" me to give them money, they are "pressuring" me.

Logic is not your specialty I see.

That might be the stupidest "by that logic" comparison I've seen in a decade.

Nobody is threatening to do anything to you which is on the level of "burning my house down". There are hundreds of thousands of jobs right now for the taking which don't require the vaccine. Many likely pay more than the places which do require the vaccine. You're not entitled to work anywhere. If you don't like the jobs which require a vaccine, go get one of the ones which do not require it. In this economy, it's really not hard to do and certainly not anything close to the equivalent of burning your house down. In fact it remains far easier to get one of those jobs for you than it would for someone with pink hair and a lip ring - who also routinely get denied jobs because of their personal preferences. Somehow I doubt you'd equate that with burning their houses down, right?

Look man if you don't like your job, get a different one. If you don't like your employer or their policies, get a different employer. This is your freedom. This is what at-will employment is about. but shut the F up with this whiney entitlement to the job you want with the employer you want and the employment policies you want. If you want to run the show, start your own business which does not have those policies. Don't try and force employers to adapt to your preferences though.

You know the other thing you could do if you don't like the working conditions at your job? Form a union. A union can override employer policies regarding vaccines, provided it's a private employer. Why don't you do that? I'd love to see all you guys who claim to be triggered by socialism start promoting unionization for collective action to force a change in an employment working condition!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 05:14:53 PM by Mistwell »