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Author Topic: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!  (Read 199026 times)

Reckall

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #120 on: August 06, 2021, 08:22:57 AM »
Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)


Seriously, what do you think that the US did wrong? Because in the US we had lockdowns for months, we had universal masking mandates for months.

You seem to be angry about your father dying. That's understandable and a legitimate tragedy.

This will be long.

No, I'm not angry that my father died. He was old and had a very good life. I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it. It was too late for my father but that's life.

And, true, everybody dies, but this is not a reason to chase death. I often hear "These people died with COVID but they had another disease. Seldom I hear: "But, maybe, without COVID they would be still with us."

I'm not angry towards the US. Looking from outside I think that they incredibly messed up the answer to the pandemic, thinking that a virus can be fought with slogans like "Masks = Tyranny!" and the endemic "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!"

AGAIN

...Because during the Spanish Flu pandemic the US reacted exactly the same way, causing untold unnecessary deaths.

Let's take the TARDIS and go back for a few minutes to 1918. So, how were the US reacting to a deadly pandemic?

Almost no one listened to science. Masks, surprise!, were "against freedom". Doctors pleaded the various political organs to stop "War Parades" amid a pandemic. They were labeled as "against the morale" (the then sobriquet for "unpatriotic").

The result were events like the unfamous "Liberty Loan Parade" that was held in Philadelphia on Sept, 28th 1918 - when the pandemic was already so raging that the Army had cancelled the next draft call. Medical authorities of any kind implored for the parade to be cancelled. "No, because it was politically 'against the morale'". Some implored the newspaper editors to publish warnings or, at least, basic suggestions about how to protect yourself if you attended the parade. No one published anything.

Two days after the parade people literally started falling ill in the street. The result was one of the biggest superspreader events in history. Hospitals in the city were so crowded that they began refusing new patients. Sick people queued anyway outside the doors. They died on the sidewalk.

Colonel Charles Hagadorn, commander of Camp Grant, had ignored the medical guidelines for the Army (why??) and packed his barracks with young men. On Oct, 8th he read the latest flu casualty bulletin and committed suicide.

The Director of the Philadelphia Department of Public Health and Charities, Dr. Wilmer Krusen, a political appointee who hadn't acted against the parade ("There is no danger" were his exact words), assured that "There is no need to get frightened or panic stricken over exaggerated reports." (Sounds familiar?) The day after the daily death toll doubled.

And this was happening while normal illnesses, accidents and people injured in criminal acts still happened. Doctors and nurses were ran to the ground.

And then doctors and nurses started to become ill too. And to die. At the Philadelphia General Hospital, eight doctors and fifty-four nurses became sick in the span of a few hours. Ten nurses died. Fear and panic started to pervade the health-workers too.

When looking at the dead, cyanosis in some of them was so intense that some scientists actually suspected that this was not a Flu but a resurgence of the Black Death.

Did all the above stopped other "Liberty Loan Parades"? Or, when the (infected) Army returned home, "Victory Parades"?

No, of course not.

If you want to fact check, you can find everything here, with a bit of effort:

https://www.influenzaarchive.org/

WOOOOOOOSH! Back to modern times. This was then. Today the US learned, didn't they?

Well...

No. I'm not angry at the US. For sure their imprudence helped the creation of variants but, AFAIK, not the dangerous ones (it was still imprudence) I'm angry when someone from the US thinks that he can still "lecture" the World using the very same arguments that enhanced the mortality rate of a pandemic 100 years ago. (Does anyone studies, at least, his own history?) I'm angry when someone from the US denies everything: Science? It is imperfect, not credible and if you speak for it you somehow are turning it into a religion. The government? The less is said, the better. The media? Fake news! Personal experience? Hearsay! Common sense? Deep state and Pleiadians! - and then they lecture.

Military attitude and "rah rah" slogans cause orgasmic reactions when used against the struggle with a virus that - in case someone missed it - grounded a whole aircraft carrier. And when was the last time that a US aircraft carrier was put out of commission by an external agent? (my research shows that it was the USS Bismarck Sea, sunk by Japanese kamikaze pilots during the Battle of Iwo Jima in 1945; I don't know if there were more carriers put "out of commission" but not sunk; ironically, those kamikazes died, a virus multiplies).

Sure, COVID isn't as deadly as the Spanish flu. But today the World is more complex and fragile. A single ship that blocked the Suez Canal for a week disrupted commerce all over the World. Everyone is more and more responsible for everyone else. Not in everything, but at the very least in some crucial matters. Coming together in fighting a pandemic is only sane. And I don't see the US realising this. Not all in the US, at least.

So, yes, I get angry when I get some stupid lecture from the US and I'm worried when a country - any country, to be absolutely clear - behaves in a way I consider to be potentially dangerous for everybody. Sorry, but this is the way I see it.
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Reckall

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #121 on: August 06, 2021, 08:28:38 AM »
Epidemiological evidence suggests...

Otherwise known as bullshit, because that's what epidemiology is. Shit mathematics masquerading as "public health expertise".

Cite? Facts, please, with links. Either that, or a way to reach the Loa you consulted.
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HappyDaze

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #122 on: August 06, 2021, 08:31:21 AM »
It was never sold as a 100% cure. They accurately reported the percentage effectiveness against each strain as it arose and none of those were 100%.

Not even 1% efficacy. Utterly pointless and probably making infections worse if Israel's latest data is anything to go by. What a strange coincidence that all the places with the highest level of vaccination also have the highest levels of infection.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

Fuck off, not a chance.

Somehow this "deadly" virus has failed to kill me, or leave any lasting impacts, twice. Might I not even notice it the next time?
Have you considered that you might have insidious lingering brain damage from your Covid experience? You really should consider it.

HappyDaze

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #123 on: August 06, 2021, 08:34:14 AM »
Epidemiological evidence suggests...

Otherwise known as bullshit, because that's what epidemiology is. Shit mathematics masquerading as "public health expertise".
Then tell us what method you use to crunch the data.

Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #124 on: August 06, 2021, 08:45:05 AM »
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?
Yes, that's how viruses work. Especially zoonotic viruses that have recently jumped to human hosts. Viruses that kill their host stop replicating, so they have an evolutionary incentive to become more infectious, but less deadly.

Which perfectly describes the Delta variant, despite your uninformed claim otherwise.

You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.
At least do the most basic research:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

You disagree with these abstracts? Give me alternatives. Don't babble about "serious medical sites", give me the links. Only a request: please, avoid Breitbart news.
I've never read Breitbart news. But if you can't even defend your favorite news site, it's probably not very good, is it?

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And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?
Covid-19.
19.
2019.
We're in the 8th month of 2021.
If tigers took 2 years to complete a jump, they'd starve in mid air.

COVID cases in the World as of today: 201,817,159
COVID deaths: 4,283,757

COVID cases in the US as of today: 36,301,744
COVID deaths in the US: 631,879

Daily cases as of today: 705,067

I don't see this tiger starving.
You can't even follow a basic metaphor, can you?

We're more than 20 months into the pandemic, and you're still acting like it's this sudden emergency and we need to act without thought and ignore all possible long term consequences.

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Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Your inability to follow a simple chain of logic once more leads to irrational gibberish. (Chinese elections, really?)

This isn't a hard concept. Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, and Murphy killed tens of thousand of elderly, because they forced patients with covid-19 into nursing homes. Instead of protecting the most vulnerable, they killed them. This is one the biggest reasons why the death rates in those states are among the worst in the nation. And since all 5 of those states are among the top 11 states in terms of population, their actions have had a disproportionate effect on the death rate for the nation as a whole.

DeSantis did not do this.

The more general point I made is that one of the largest factors contributing to different death rates in otherwise similar nations is how well they cared for their elderly in congregate care. In nations where covid-19 cases in this group were kept low, the death rate tended to be low. In those nations where covid-19 cases spread like wildfire in this group, the death rate was much higher. Along with obesity and the youthfulness of the population, it's one of the biggest reasons why death rates varied so much between different countries.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 08:46:45 AM by Pat »

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #125 on: August 06, 2021, 08:47:01 AM »
Have you considered that you might have insidious lingering brain damage from your Covid experience? You really should consider it.

Have you considered the possibility you're a cowardly, brainwashed moron?

I didn't have a "covid experience", I had the sniffles, like the overwhelming majority who have been infected with this inconsequential virus.
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Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #126 on: August 06, 2021, 08:53:07 AM »
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it. The only things that seem to have worked in containing the disease are border controls in island nations and banning mass indoor gatherings. Otherwise, covid-19 spreads how it wants to spread.

HappyDaze

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #127 on: August 06, 2021, 08:55:05 AM »
Have you considered that you might have insidious lingering brain damage from your Covid experience? You really should consider it.

Have you considered the possibility you're a cowardly, brainwashed moron?

I didn't have a "covid experience", I had the sniffles, like the overwhelming majority who have been infected with this inconsequential virus.
I'm cowardly? Bring it on big guy... Watcha gonna do?

Reckall

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #128 on: August 06, 2021, 08:57:34 AM »
Talk is cheap. When the rubber hits the road, the government does not have confidence in the vaccine's safety.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

Funny how they have insulated themselves from responsibility

Are you even aware that this is incredibly normal and why?

I'll leave the effort to find the answer to you for a while. Meanwhile, here is a clue from the very link you posted:

"unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company."

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while obscuring the data.

Which data? And why are so sure that this is happening? Links, please.

Because, as a policeman friend of mine uses to say, "It is easy to point to an empty space and say: "The data that proves I'm right was there! So, I'm right!"
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Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. We will reevaluate the agency’s position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward.

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs

Amazing. The very first line in this link says:

Given the evolving nature of the pandemic, OSHA is in the process of reviewing and updating this document. These materials may no longer represent current OSHA recommendations and guidance.For the most up-to-date information, consult Protecting Workers Guidance.

Since I see that you got an "Evil Hat" attitude, I'll dig further for you.

Here is the link we are provided. You have to look here now:

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/safework

Point 9. While it confirms what you posted, here is the last line.

Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

And we are even openly given the link: https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

You are not forced to stay silent at all. You want to report? You have our blessing.

And you get fries. I didn't.
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Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #129 on: August 06, 2021, 08:58:36 AM »
I'm cowardly? Bring it on big guy... Watcha gonna do?

Call you out for the pathetic melt that you are.
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HappyDaze

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #130 on: August 06, 2021, 09:02:35 AM »
I'm cowardly? Bring it on big guy... Watcha gonna do?

Call you out for the pathetic melt that you are.
And then...?

Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #131 on: August 06, 2021, 09:05:58 AM »
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?
Once again, you're spreading bad information.

Haskell County is no longer considered a serious candidate for the origin of the 1918 flu, because there were cases in NYC at the same time. A North American origin remains possible, but it's not conclusive. There was also an outbreak at a British military camp in France in 1916, which may have been the start of the pandemic. Or it may have originated among laborers in Northern China in 1917.

There are problems with all of these theories. Where the 1918 flu originated is still unknown.

Reckall

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #132 on: August 06, 2021, 09:36:56 AM »
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?
Yes, that's how viruses work. Especially zoonotic viruses that have recently jumped to human hosts. Viruses that kill their host stop replicating, so they have an evolutionary incentive to become more infectious, but less deadly.

Which perfectly describes the Delta variant, despite your uninformed claim otherwise.

At which point you missed:

While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one.

...right in the post you answered?

You didn't like the expression "losing power", I gave another definition. It is still not the case with this one.
Quote
You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.
At least do the most basic research:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

I actually was about to post a link to the CDC. This one:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html

What You Need to Know

COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.

Millions of people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines under the most intense safety monitoring in U.S. history.

CDC recommends you get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as possible.

If you are fully vaccinated, you can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic. Learn more about what you can do when you have been fully vaccinated.


And then unsurprisingly they have a page about adverse reactions. One day I'll tell you what happened to me during a period of stress and insomnia, and my doctor prescribed me "some bland drops that will help you to sleep; we prescribe them to children, really!" One night to remember. S*it happens.

Yet, you can find what the CDC's recommendation is front and center on the first page.

...But you know how the CDC is these days: Holy Word when they agree with you, proof that science is trash when they change a measure against COVID. ::)
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You disagree with these abstracts? Give me alternatives. Don't babble about "serious medical sites", give me the links. Only a request: please, avoid Breitbart news.
I've never read Breitbart news. But if you can't even defend your favorite news site, it's probably not very good, is it?

"My favourite news site" being?

Quote
You can't even follow a basic metaphor, can you?

We're more than 20 months into the pandemic, and you're still acting like it's this sudden emergency and we need to act without thought and ignore all possible long term consequences.

It is always interesting to read about "long term consequences" and "the Delta variant" in the same post, without the poster even trying to connect the two...

Quote
Quote
Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Your inability to follow a simple chain of logic once more leads to irrational gibberish. (Chinese elections, really?)

Not Chinese elections (comma) really.

Quote
This isn't a hard concept. Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, and Murphy killed tens of thousand of elderly, because they forced patients with covid-19 into nursing homes. Instead of protecting the most vulnerable, they killed them. This is one the biggest reasons why the death rates in those states are among the worst in the nation. And since all 5 of those states are among the top 11 states in terms of population, their actions have had a disproportionate effect on the death rate for the nation as a whole.

...And this makes them, somehow, "non Americans"? Not part of "how America messed up the answer to the pandemic"? Because that was my point.

Quote
DeSantis did not do this.

Admittedly, no. DeSantis, as often repeated, pulled a different stunt - both last year and this year:

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2021/07/23/floridas-covid-19-surge-continues-adds-73199-cases-in-week/

Florida is seeing a surge in cases, hospitalizations and deaths as it grapples with the highly transmissible delta variant of the novel coronavirus and lagging vaccination rates. Hospital officials across the state say beds are filling up with COVID-19 patients. (but what "Hospital officials" know, right?)

Dr. David Rubin, director of PolicyLab at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, told our sister station, WKMG-TV, that Florida is the epicenter of transmissions.

“It’s very, very clear right now that what’s responsible for what’s going on are a large number of unvaccinated individuals and a large disease reservoir now and when this virus has an opportunity to propagate it will,” Rubin said.


Still, despite the recent surge, DeSantis said the state will not return to government mandates — in May, he barred municipalities from imposing their own and banned businesses from requiring proof of vaccination. He said it is up to individuals on how they deal with the pandemic.

Quote
The more general point I made is that one of the largest factors contributing to different death rates in otherwise similar nations is how well they cared for their elderly in congregate care. In nations where covid-19 cases in this group were kept low, the death rate tended to be low. In those nations where covid-19 cases spread like wildfire in this group, the death rate was much higher. Along with obesity and the youthfulness of the population, it's one of the biggest reasons why death rates varied so much between different countries.

You know? I would really like to live in a World where things are so easy.
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Reckall

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #133 on: August 06, 2021, 09:47:11 AM »
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it.

Except that here they did. As I posted earlier, no one can cancel the death toll of the first wave in Italy  - but that death toll (along with the initial wave of cases) is exactly the yardstick that shows how, after the Italian government went against the virus with everything they had, the transmission index collapsed.
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Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2021, 09:53:01 AM »
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?
Yes, that's how viruses work. Especially zoonotic viruses that have recently jumped to human hosts. Viruses that kill their host stop replicating, so they have an evolutionary incentive to become more infectious, but less deadly.

Which perfectly describes the Delta variant, despite your uninformed claim otherwise.

At which point you missed:

While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one.

...right in the post you answered?

You didn't like the expression "losing power", I gave another definition. It is still not the case with this one.
Is your reading comprehension this bad?

I just said that the Delta variant is more transmissible, but less deadly. As predicted. As is usually the case. You're claimed otherwise, and I was pointing out you're wrong.

So of course I saw your false claim, because I explicitly refuted it.

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You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.
At least do the most basic research:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

I actually was about to post a link to the CDC.
Glad you admit you were wrong.

Quote
Quote
Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Your inability to follow a simple chain of logic once more leads to irrational gibberish. (Chinese elections, really?)

Not Chinese elections (comma) really.

Quote
This isn't a hard concept. Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, and Murphy killed tens of thousand of elderly, because they forced patients with covid-19 into nursing homes. Instead of protecting the most vulnerable, they killed them. This is one the biggest reasons why the death rates in those states are among the worst in the nation. And since all 5 of those states are among the top 11 states in terms of population, their actions have had a disproportionate effect on the death rate for the nation as a whole.

...And this makes them, somehow, "non Americans"? Not part of "how America messed up the answer to the pandemic"? Because that was my point.
No, you asked why the death rate varies from country to country. I explained why. I never said anything about their not being Americans.

Are you suffering from brain damage? Because you don't seem to be replying to what I said.