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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Spinachcat on August 02, 2021, 11:31:32 PM

Title: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 02, 2021, 11:31:32 PM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.



Red State Secession anyone?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2021, 10:18:34 AM
Matt Yglesias (a so-called 'journalist') opined on Twitter that people needed to be held down and forcibly vaccinated.

(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/matthew-Yglesias-deleted-jab-2.jpg)

He later wiped his Twitter feed, presumably because someone threatened to feed him his own guts.

Autonomy? 'My body, my choice'? Dead. Well done.

But hey, no more mean tweets.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 03, 2021, 11:12:49 AM
This shit makes me... not wish that the vaccines turn out to have serious side effects.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ijcp.13795

But goddamn does the vile thought run through my head when these assholes want to ram their mindless decision down other people's throats.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 03, 2021, 11:44:44 AM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.

Hahahah that's not going to happen! What's probably going to happen is something similar to that Obama Care rule, if you can afford health insurance and chooses not to, than you'd be paying a little extra on your taxes. Giving these tweets the benefit of a doubt only feeds the paranoid and increases the divide. We got enough misinformation as it is, and that's just silly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2021, 01:29:30 PM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.

Hahahah that's not going to happen! What's probably going to happen is something similar to that Obama Care rule, if you can afford health insurance and chooses not to, than you'd be paying a little extra on your taxes. Giving these tweets the benefit of a doubt only feeds the paranoid and increases the divide. We got enough misinformation as it is, and that's just silly.
You know the mandate got overturned, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 03, 2021, 01:52:29 PM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.



Red State Secession anyone?

I guess that "Red State Secession" would be interpreted as "Fuck yeah! Kick away all those Communist States!" causing a very confused secession.

To be clear, here we have another example of "random sample of Americans" and their understanding of maps 😂:


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 03, 2021, 05:09:24 PM
You could sue California for some sweet sweet money if they started doing that.

It truly is Clown world.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 03, 2021, 09:51:58 PM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 04, 2021, 07:00:22 AM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

Nor is the COVID for what matters. Are you even aware of how an influenza virus works?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 04, 2021, 11:00:51 AM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 04, 2021, 12:06:57 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 12:16:29 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 04, 2021, 12:18:09 PM
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].
Im also concerned about this having backroom deal politics involved. Where companies market their cures as a slam-dunk to get the pay and the credit. And politicians don't want to market 'Yeah we are largely fucked for a while, stay put while we figure it out', they want to say 'I got a slam dunk solution!'. Lies may have not just been for peoples security, but for money and prestige.

Now that the lie is coming out, this now has credibility on the line. Why should we be buying tons of this expensive vaccine if its effectiveness is a MAYBE.

My father got infected despite taking the vaxine. In theory it made recovery better. But I find the whole thing in question now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 04, 2021, 12:40:30 PM
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].
Im also concerned about this having backroom deal politics involved. Where companies market their cures as a slam-dunk to get the pay and the credit. And politicians don't want to market 'Yeah we are largely fucked for a while, stay put while we figure it out', they want to say 'I got a slam dunk solution!'. Lies may have not just been for peoples security, but for money and prestige.

Now that the lie is coming out, this now has credibility on the line. Why should we be buying tons of this expensive vaccine if its effectiveness is a MAYBE.

My father got infected despite taking the vaxine. In theory it made recovery better. But I find the whole thing in question now.
Have you seen the contracts that Pfizer had countries sign? They're absurd. 10 to 30 year blackout period where the details of the contract can't be shared, complete assumption of all liability by the government, guarantee of payment under almost all possible circumstances... they were ridiculously one sided. There's a lot of money flowing, and while there's no smoking gun yet, it sure smells like corruption.

The vaccines do work fairly well. But they tend to mitigate the worst effects, rather than making you immune. They're less effective than natural immunity. And the efficacy ratings are highly deceptive. They also have some significant side effects. Though they're less dangerous than the disease overall, especially for high risk populations like the elderly. But for low risk populations, like children, that calculus changes. And we don't know about long term complications. In other words, it's complicated. Public health should never have pretended otherwise.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 04, 2021, 01:34:53 PM
[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".

The problem is not "referring to science" by itself. Science is not monolithic: it learns, changes and evolves everyday. There is a reason as why they had propeller planes in WWII and we have jets today.

Planes, however, tend to stay up. When an airplane falls - and it is very rare - there is an investigation. Usually they find that the cause is a flaw, some sort of human error or even a freakish accident. They do their best to fix it and planes continue to stay up.

How virii act is very well known. In one hour any eight grader can learn the basics of virology. It is that simple.

Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?

Hearsay?
What your favourite politician says?
Folk remedies?
Voodoo?

Even worse, some people grasp a single concept, with no context, and speak from it like if it is the absolute truth.

"Only I decide what enters in my body and when!!" Fine. Are you aware that you just justified DUIing? I don't think so. Seldom these kind of people think things through.

"Masks = Fascism!!" So is the mandatory use of helmets in heavy industries and other work activities, I guess.

"I don't want no shitty vaccine DNA!!" Then you will possibly get COVID DNA. Me? Given a choice I'll go for the vaccine but if you like COVID more feel free to embrace the alternative. I don't think, however, that these people ever reached eight grade - not mentally at least - and thus they lack the awareness that your cells are invaded by foreign DNA every day. In unlucky times it will be the Spanish Flu or the COVID, but the idea "No vaccine = no shitty DNA in my cells!!" is the very definition of delusionary.

"Dr. Fauci is wrong!! A doctor said that!!" A whole doctor? Wow! :o

And so on. A concept is expressed, but no solution is given. Ironically, by grasping "the infinite truth!" via refusing any context - all of this while attacking and laughing about those who disagree - these people are not different from SJW and wokes. They are actually the same, only the specifics of the "religion" are different.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 04, 2021, 01:41:22 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
Don't do this 'woah is me' bullshit. People who believe in 'science' are derided? By whom? When the entire media establishment and the culture as a whole has a mystical almost religeous worship of The Science (TM).
Because SOME people don't worship The Science (TM), then all of science is under threat! Unless complaince with The Science (TM) is 110% then that means poor scientists are under fire!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 04, 2021, 01:45:38 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
Don't do this 'woah is me' bullshit. People who believe in 'science' are derided? By whom? When the entire media establishment and the culture as a whole has a mystical almost religeous worship of The Science (TM).
Because SOME people don't worship The Science (TM), then all of science is under threat! Unless complaince with The Science (TM) is 110% then that means poor scientists are under fire!

Your personal opinion on "science" being?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 04, 2021, 01:58:33 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
The alternative is not treating science as a belief system, with priests and holy dogma, but instead treating it as what it is, a highly effective set of systems for developing knowledge. The people who talk about "believing in the science" are usually in the first category. They've chosen a set of prophets, treat their word as infallible, and react to anyone speaks against those words as a heretic, regardless of their qualifications or the soundness of their arguments. A good example of that is when people started posting on social media that their doctor had advised them against taking the vaccine, usually because of some pre-existing medical condition, and they were told they should get another doctor.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 04, 2021, 02:19:44 PM
Your personal opinion on "science" being?

That its a method of understanding the natural world. Practitioners os science are smart, but as fallible as anyone else.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on August 04, 2021, 02:22:57 PM
Is there something wrong with saying:

"mRNA treatments and adenoidal viral vectors are still relatively untested technologies that don't have a long term track record?  I'd rather wait for a traditional vaccine like Novavax where I know how it works and where it'll go in my body.  After all Pfizer itself knows that within 48 hours all the "vaccine" moves throughout the body and mostly settles in the ovaries and bone marrow."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 04, 2021, 03:19:15 PM
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].
Im also concerned about this having backroom deal politics involved. Where companies market their cures as a slam-dunk to get the pay and the credit. And politicians don't want to market 'Yeah we are largely fucked for a while, stay put while we figure it out', they want to say 'I got a slam dunk solution!'. Lies may have not just been for peoples security, but for money and prestige.

Now that the lie is coming out, this now has credibility on the line. Why should we be buying tons of this expensive vaccine if its effectiveness is a MAYBE.

My father got infected despite taking the vaxine. In theory it made recovery better. But I find the whole thing in question now.
Have you seen the contracts that Pfizer had countries sign? They're absurd. 10 to 30 year blackout period where the details of the contract can't be shared, complete assumption of all liability by the government, guarantee of payment under almost all possible circumstances... they were ridiculously one sided. There's a lot of money flowing, and while there's no smoking gun yet, it sure smells like corruption.

The vaccines do work fairly well. But they tend to mitigate the worst effects, rather than making you immune. They're less effective than natural immunity. And the efficacy ratings are highly deceptive. They also have some significant side effects. Though they're less dangerous than the disease overall, especially for high risk populations like the elderly. But for low risk populations, like children, that calculus changes. And we don't know about long term complications. In other words, it's complicated. Public health should never have pretended otherwise.

I'm starting to think the idea is that if they get nearly everyone vaccinated, then they can point to that as an indicator that everyone agreed with the government's decisions. A way to spread out the blame if/when the promises they made about the vaccines turn out to be more marketing than fact.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 04, 2021, 03:25:42 PM
"believing in the science"

Is the first hint that something is terribly wrong.

(https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Adeptus_mechanicus_by_cribs-d4b4afs.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 03:40:06 PM
[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".

The problem is not "referring to science" by itself. Science is not monolithic: it learns, changes and evolves everyday. There is a reason as why they had propeller planes in WWII and we have jets today.

Planes, however, tend to stay up. When an airplane falls - and it is very rare - there is an investigation. Usually they find that the cause is a flaw, some sort of human error or even a freakish accident. They do their best to fix it and planes continue to stay up.

How virii act is very well known. In one hour any eight grader can learn the basics of virology. It is that simple.

Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?

Hearsay?
What your favourite politician says?
Folk remedies?
Voodoo?

Even worse, some people grasp a single concept, with no context, and speak from it like if it is the absolute truth.

"Only I decide what enters in my body and when!!" Fine. Are you aware that you just justified DUIing? I don't think so. Seldom these kind of people think things through.

"Masks = Fascism!!" So is the mandatory use of helmets in heavy industries and other work activities, I guess.

"I don't want no shitty vaccine DNA!!" Then you will possibly get COVID DNA. Me? Given a choice I'll go for the vaccine but if you like COVID more feel free to embrace the alternative. I don't think, however, that these people ever reached eight grade - not mentally at least - and thus they lack the awareness that your cells are invaded by foreign DNA every day. In unlucky times it will be the Spanish Flu or the COVID, but the idea "No vaccine = no shitty DNA in my cells!!" is the very definition of delusionary.

"Dr. Fauci is wrong!! A doctor said that!!" A whole doctor? Wow! :o

And so on. A concept is expressed, but no solution is given. Ironically, by grasping "the infinite truth!" via refusing any context - all of this while attacking and laughing about those who disagree - these people are not different from SJW and wokes. They are actually the same, only the specifics of the "religion" are different.
I certainly hope you don't smoke.  Surrounded by all those strawmen, you're liable to start a serious fire...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 03:51:30 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
The alternative is not treating science as a belief system, with priests and holy dogma, but instead treating it as what it is, a highly effective set of systems for developing knowledge. The people who talk about "believing in the science" are usually in the first category. They've chosen a set of prophets, treat their word as infallible, and react to anyone speaks against those words as a heretic, regardless of their qualifications or the soundness of their arguments. A good example of that is when people started posting on social media that their doctor had advised them against taking the vaccine, usually because of some pre-existing medical condition, and they were told they should get another doctor.
Exactly!  Science is a process, not a product.  The most that can ever be said for any product is: "We arrived at this result using the scientific method, and this result does not appear to be contradicted by additional observation."  Modern "scientific" practice, however, tends to pick a particular outcome first, then gathers evidence to support it.  This is especially true in cases where large sums of money (pharmaceuticals, medicine, publicly funded research) are dependent on the outcome of the research.  It is also a function of the "publish or perish" construction of most research universities.  Performing research that results in a negative or no conclusion tends not to get published.  Replicating a previous experiment tends not to get published.  Extraordinary results, even if unlikely to be accurate, get published.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124
https://phys.org/news/2018-07-beware-scientific-studiesmost-wrong.html
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2021, 03:58:52 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 04, 2021, 05:04:12 PM
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.

We dealt with trivial respiratory viruses long before 2020.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2021, 05:17:31 PM
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.

We dealt with trivial respiratory viruses long before 2020.
My statement isn't limited to the public health threat of a pandemic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 04, 2021, 05:37:07 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
The alternative is not treating science as a belief system, with priests and holy dogma, but instead treating it as what it is, a highly effective set of systems for developing knowledge. The people who talk about "believing in the science" are usually in the first category. They've chosen a set of prophets, treat their word as infallible, and react to anyone speaks against those words as a heretic, regardless of their qualifications or the soundness of their arguments. A good example of that is when people started posting on social media that their doctor had advised them against taking the vaccine, usually because of some pre-existing medical condition, and they were told they should get another doctor.
Exactly!  Science is a process, not a product.  The most that can ever be said for any product is: "We arrived at this result using the scientific method, and this result does not appear to be contradicted by additional observation."  Modern "scientific" practice, however, tends to pick a particular outcome first, then gathers evidence to support it.  This is especially true in cases where large sums of money (pharmaceuticals, medicine, publicly funded research) are dependent on the outcome of the research.  It is also a function of the "publish or perish" construction of most research universities.  Performing research that results in a negative or no conclusion tends not to get published.  Replicating a previous experiment tends not to get published.  Extraordinary results, even if unlikely to be accurate, get published.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124
https://phys.org/news/2018-07-beware-scientific-studiesmost-wrong.html
It is not standard scientific practice to decide on a result, and then search for supporting evidence. It does happen, and you're correct it's often associated with grants from special interest groups, but it's at least a managed problem. It's why declaring all potential conflicts of interest is so important, for instance.

You're correct about the publication bias toward studies that have an interesting results, and against studies that show something doesn't work. Though since the replication crisis, there's been an active attempt to counter that, with many attempts to confirm or disconfirm significant studies, and a push to provide outlets where negative results can be published (there isn't a page limit in electronic journals).

But the biggest problem is just statistics. Let's say spontaneous combustion has become the leading cause of death in the world, and your research on luciferian pathways comes up with 1,000 different chemicals you think might help reduce the chance of bursting into flame. Let's assume that none of the chemicals actually work, but you don't know that. So you run 1,000 trials, where you give each chemical to a different group of people. And then you wait a few years, and check to see how many in each group died a horrible witch death. Using statistical analysis, you calculate a p value for chemical, and look for values < 0.05. That 0.05 threshold means there's only a 5% chance to come up with that result by mere chance. Except you tested 1,000 chemicals. 5% of 1,000 is 50. That means you'll find roughly 50 chemicals that appear to have a statistically significant chance of reducing autoholocausts... except we know that none of the chemicals work. So all 50 positive results are false positives.

A lot of studies work like that. For example, genetic research often tests every single gene, looking for correlations, which can end up with a lot of hot statistical garbage. That it happens has been verified by empirical tests. There are ways to compensate for it, but a lot of medical researchers aren't very good at it, and even when it's done right, yes, it's often difficult to conduct enough testing to be sure, especially since the strength of the signal is fairly low (which is often the case).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 05:44:00 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
The alternative is not treating science as a belief system, with priests and holy dogma, but instead treating it as what it is, a highly effective set of systems for developing knowledge. The people who talk about "believing in the science" are usually in the first category. They've chosen a set of prophets, treat their word as infallible, and react to anyone speaks against those words as a heretic, regardless of their qualifications or the soundness of their arguments. A good example of that is when people started posting on social media that their doctor had advised them against taking the vaccine, usually because of some pre-existing medical condition, and they were told they should get another doctor.
Exactly!  Science is a process, not a product.  The most that can ever be said for any product is: "We arrived at this result using the scientific method, and this result does not appear to be contradicted by additional observation."  Modern "scientific" practice, however, tends to pick a particular outcome first, then gathers evidence to support it.  This is especially true in cases where large sums of money (pharmaceuticals, medicine, publicly funded research) are dependent on the outcome of the research.  It is also a function of the "publish or perish" construction of most research universities.  Performing research that results in a negative or no conclusion tends not to get published.  Replicating a previous experiment tends not to get published.  Extraordinary results, even if unlikely to be accurate, get published.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124
https://phys.org/news/2018-07-beware-scientific-studiesmost-wrong.html
It is not standard scientific practice to decide on a result, and then search for supporting evidence. It does happen, and you're correct it's often associated with grants from special interest groups, but it's at least a managed problem. It's why declaring all potential conflicts of interest is so important, for instance.

You're correct about the publication bias toward studies that have an interesting results, and against studies that show something doesn't work. Though since the replication crisis, there's been an active attempt to counter that, with many attempts to confirm or disconfirm significant studies, and a push to provide outlets where negative results can be published (there isn't a page limit in electronic journals).

But the biggest problem is just statistics. Let's say spontaneous combustion has become the leading cause of death in the world, and your research on luciferian pathways comes up with 1,000 different chemicals you think might help reduce the chance of bursting into flame. Let's assume that none of the chemicals actually work, but you don't know that. So you run 1,000 trials, where you give each chemical to a different group of people. And then you wait a few years, and check to see how many in each group died a horrible witch death. Using statistical analysis, you calculate a p value for chemical, and look for values < 0.05. That 0.05 threshold means there's only a 5% chance to come up with that result by mere chance. Except you tested 1,000 chemicals. 5% of 1,000 is 50. That means you'll find roughly 50 chemicals that appear to have a statistically significant chance of reducing autoholocausts... except we know that none of the chemicals work. So all 50 positive results are false positives.

A lot of studies work like that. For example, genetic research often tests every single gene, looking for correlations, which can end up with a lot of hot statistical garbage. That it happens has been verified by empirical tests. There are ways to compensate for it, but a lot of medical researchers aren't very good at it, and even when it's done right, yes, it's often difficult to conduct enough testing to be sure, especially since the strength of the signal is fairly low (which is often the case).
All very true.  The lack of replication then means that any additional studies on those false positives don't get printed when they contradict the original findings.  It's all intertwined.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 05:48:24 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.
I know what the people who would like to use human interaction as a justification for totalitarian control consider "public health" to mean.  I just reject their arbitrarily asserted definition.  If the fact that every action we take effects others is a justification for interference in personal liberty, when are you going to stop breathing so the oxygen you are using can be better used by the many, many people smarter than you are?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 04, 2021, 06:05:06 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
The alternative is not treating science as a belief system, with priests and holy dogma, but instead treating it as what it is, a highly effective set of systems for developing knowledge.

I could have answered you earlier, but I decided to see others' reactions.

Notice how my very first line was:

"The problem is not "referring to science" by itself. Science is not monolithic: it learns, changes and evolves everyday. There is a reason as why they had propeller planes in WWII and we have jets today."

But I also added:

Planes, however, tend to stay up.

It was funny to see, out of the gate, Shrieking Banshee trying to shoot down my idea that, today, having faith in science gets you derided without any alternative being offered - with a derisive post lacking any alternative, but... OK 😂

However, we live in times were choices must be made. "Important Discourses About Science" cannot anymore hide themselves behind the finger of "We will never be taken to task anyway". Today what you choose to believe in will have practical, possible life-and death, results on yourself and others.

Since this pandemic exploded I choose to follow the best scientific opinion. I didn't wear a mask at the beginning, going against the grain, because they suggested that it was actually dangerous. Then they changed their tune and I changed my behaviour. It didn't surprise me, however, that there was a learning process about COVID and the best way to protect yourself and those around you.

Eirikrautha called the examples I made "strawmen" without putting any effort in debunking a single one. I guess the knowledge that they are strawmen comes from throwing bones and consulting the Loa - the very pinnacle of how human's doubts are answered. Yet, two words about why Voodoo is a better alternative would have been welcome.

I'm still curious about how many people know that virii work by injecting their own DNA or RNA into cells - so you risk to get a dose of that from them anyway. No one tackled this question. Maybe the Loa were busy.

I lost my father to COVID. Due to sheer misfortune, my 85 years old mother had to undergo emergency surgery two days after my father died. She spent two weeks in the hospital at the height of the pandemic in Northern Italy. When she came home I had to worry about her, myself and my girlfriend.

I hadn't the luxury to be able to deride this pandemic. While people like Spinachat laughed about the "Kung-Flu" (*) I had to choose how to navigate an unprecedented, dangerous event that already had revealed itself as deadly. I choose to follow the best scientific advice, paired with my own knowledge of the matter (knowledge born from reading a couple of books during the years, out of sheer curiosity about the matter, nothing more). I see many dissenting voices. Most of them come from the country that had 25% of the dead with only 4% of the World population - so maybe these voices can be useful as an explanation, for sure not as an example to follow. They also show how absolutely nothing was learned.

I and my family avoided COVID and now we all had our second shot. Were we lucky? Maybe. Some friends got it. One got "long-COVID" last Summer and, after one year, he is still listless (BTW, that the impact of a pandemic on the individual and the society as a whole is wider than the simple count of the dead is another topic seldom touched by the "Science is imperfect!" warriors from the Captain Obvious ship).

I don't wish COVID to the unvaccinated. It is petty and vulgar (what I actually hope for is that they get COVID without me wishing for it). I can only point out how, for every single negative answer here, there isn't a single answer to the question "So, what you think should be done during a pandemic? And why it should be a better solution?

(*) Just to be clear: Spinachat and the like are a boon to the society; they give a summary of all the current idiocy surrounding an event in a single post, allowing you to understand how not to think without losing precious time scrounging the internet. Twitter is another good place to find people who will never be in line to be the next who will split the atom.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 04, 2021, 06:09:39 PM
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.

We dealt with trivial respiratory viruses long before 2020.

True. The way we dealt with the trivial Spanish Flu became something for the history books.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 04, 2021, 06:33:26 PM
I could have answered you earlier, but I decided to see others' reactions.

Notice how my very first line was:

....

But I also added:
Your whole post was pretty unclear.

Since this pandemic exploded I choose to follow the best scientific opinion. I didn't wear a mask at the beginning, going against the grain, because they suggested that it was actually dangerous. Then they changed their tune and I changed my behaviour. It didn't surprise me, however, that there was a learning process about COVID and the best way to protect yourself and those around you.
There was a learning process, but you got it backwards.

I thought a mask was reasonable at the beginning. Not because there was a lot of evidence, because there wasn't. The number of mask studies in early 2020 was small, very low on the tiers of evidence-based medicine (small sample sets, not randomized etc.), focused on clinical environments not use among the public, and mostly involved N95s or occasionally surgical masks, and even then the results weren't strong. But in a crisis, you can't wait for conclusive evidence. You have to act, before all the information is in. So it would have been reasonable, but they were recommending against it.

But it didn't take long before it became clear covid-19 was primarily spread via aerosolization, not droplets or fomites. This explained how people on busses in China could catch the disease, even though they were facing the other way and many rows behind the infected person. It explained all the viral particles they detected, hours or days later, in ventilation systems. It explained the superspreader events, where almost every infection occurred indoors. It explained the association between talking and catching the disease. Among other lines of evidence.

This destroyed the rationale behind masks, because even N95 masks can't stop the typical aerosolized particle. It also destroyed the rationale behind cleaning surfaces and cleaning hands, and made things like plastic barriers counter-indicated. If the primary method of transmission is tiny particles that can stay airborne for hours and days in areas with limited airflow, and that build up over time, particularly when people have their mouth open when singing or talking, and which can pass through masks as if they weren't there, then we should have switched gears and started to worry more about things like ventilation. But that remained a secondary concern.

And then the Danmask study came out, the first large randomized trial of cloth masks worn by the general public, and it showed no effect. And the numerous statistical analyses of countries, regions, and cities before and after mask mandates, which in toto didn't show any effect. (Sure, with hundreds of natural experiments, a few showed significant results if looked at in isolation, but that's how statistics work. If you throw a 1d20 once, there's only a 5% chance of rolling a 20. But if you roll a couple hundred times, then you'll probably roll a few 20s.) These were just nails in the coffin of the idea that masks worked.

But politicians and bureaucrats kept imposing mask mandates, against all the science. They keep advising people to wear them, even when there are known adverse effects, like inhibiting the development of basic social skills in children. It took until this April for the CDC to finally admit that covid-19 was primarily spread via aerosolization, but then we were talking about multiple masks.

Mask mandates are based on Science!, the religion. Real science is looking at the evidence.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2021, 06:36:30 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.
I know what the people who would like to use human interaction as a justification for totalitarian control consider "public health" to mean.  I just reject their arbitrarily asserted definition.  If the fact that every action we take effects others is a justification for interference in personal liberty, when are you going to stop breathing so the oxygen you are using can be better used by the many, many people smarter than you are?
You have my pity.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 06:41:59 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.
I know what the people who would like to use human interaction as a justification for totalitarian control consider "public health" to mean.  I just reject their arbitrarily asserted definition.  If the fact that every action we take effects others is a justification for interference in personal liberty, when are you going to stop breathing so the oxygen you are using can be better used by the many, many people smarter than you are?
You have my pity.
Having pity suggests a superiority not in evidence.  You have my contempt.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 04, 2021, 06:48:59 PM
You have my pity.

You have my contempt.

(https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/549b42e2b8b14c458f896febc5f3863c.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 04, 2021, 06:54:08 PM
I don't wish COVID to the unvaccinated. It is petty and vulgar (what I actually hope for is that they get COVID without me wishing for it). I can only point out how, for every single negative answer here, there isn't a single answer to the question "So, what you think should be done during a pandemic? And why it should be a better solution?

Finally an interesting question.

For myself, there are too many questions to give a solid answer. This is a novel virus, with a sudden spread all over the planet. I think it's safe to say this is the first time we've had quite this kind of pandemic, and times and politics and medicine and technology have changed since previous pandemics.
Notice that in the first few months, people were generally willing to do what seemed prudent. We didn't have much data on the virus and so extreme measure like lockdowns were accepted without too much fuss.
But as the months dragged on into over a year, the details started to come together. People started to question the severity of the restrictions versus the risk of infection. It's nearly impossible to control every single human. Some doink is going to go to work with a sniffle, or break lockdown to attend a wedding. That's the power of viruses. They spread because humans are social creatures and sooner or later we're going to socialize again. Unless we practice some crazy super-lockdown where no one interacts with anyone else for ever.
If Covid was more like Ebola, I think there would have been much less pushback, but it's not. People aren't exploding in the streets.
An important point. During any other epidemic, we quarantied the sick. With Covid, we tried to quarantine everyone. It didn't work because it's just not feasible.

So, I think we're at the point where individuals need to make their own risk assesment. They need to use their best judgement on when to lock down whether to get vaccinated, etc.

I have a question for you. What should be done if it does turn out that there are serious, long term health issues with the vaccinations?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2021, 06:56:15 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.
I know what the people who would like to use human interaction as a justification for totalitarian control consider "public health" to mean.  I just reject their arbitrarily asserted definition.  If the fact that every action we take effects others is a justification for interference in personal liberty, when are you going to stop breathing so the oxygen you are using can be better used by the many, many people smarter than you are?
You have my pity.
Having pity suggests a superiority not in evidence.  You have my contempt.
There's a lot of evidence you choose to ignore (or cannot comprehend). Thus, I pity you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 07:03:48 PM
Eirikrautha called the examples I made "strawmen" without putting any effort in debunking a single one. I guess the knowledge that they are strawmen comes from throwing bones and consulting the Loa - the very pinnacle of how human's doubts are answered. Yet, two words about why Voodoo is a better alternative would have been welcome.
Why would I put effort into rebutting something that neither I nor anyone else I have seen on this thread have asserted?  That's the point of strawmen.  It is an rhetorical strategy to reverse the burden of proof by arguing against something no one has said.  Quote a post of mine or that I've supported you'd like me to defend.  Otherwise, your entire post was verbal masturbation, as it doesn't address any of the actual objections to the handling of this pandemic.

Covid 19 is a virus-caused disease that can be deadly to a small percentage of the old, infirm, or otherwise unhealth people.  Anyone under 70 years old without a serious health issue has a better then 99.5% chance of surviving.  Even those in serious danger because of age or health have a better then 95% chance of survival, at worst.  Rational risk assessment starts with those facts.  Though, while understandable, people who are affected by one of those particular deaths are hardly the people to look to for rational evaluations.  You have my sympathies, but your pain does not trump reality.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2021, 07:24:23 PM
Eirikrautha called the examples I made "strawmen" without putting any effort in debunking a single one. I guess the knowledge that they are strawmen comes from throwing bones and consulting the Loa - the very pinnacle of how human's doubts are answered. Yet, two words about why Voodoo is a better alternative would have been welcome.
Why would I put effort into rebutting something that neither I nor anyone else I have seen on this thread have asserted?  That's the point of strawmen.  It is an rhetorical strategy to reverse the burden of proof by arguing against something no one has said.  Quote a post of mine or that I've supported you'd like me to defend.  Otherwise, your entire post was verbal masturbation, as it doesn't address any of the actual objections to the handling of this pandemic.

Covid 19 is a virus-caused disease that can be deadly to a small percentage of the old, infirm, or otherwise unhealth people.  Anyone under 70 years old without a serious health issue has a better then 99.5% chance of surviving.  Even those in serious danger because of age or health have a better then 95% chance of survival, at worst.  Rational risk assessment starts with those facts.  Though, while understandable, people who are affected by one of those particular deaths are hardly the people to look to for rational evaluations.  You have my sympathies, but your pain does not trump reality.
Survival does not mean unharmed. Not all that survive fully recover. This reality trumps your lack of empathy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 04, 2021, 09:41:00 PM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.

Hahahah that's not going to happen! What's probably going to happen is something similar to that Obama Care rule, if you can afford health insurance and chooses not to, than you'd be paying a little extra on your taxes. Giving these tweets the benefit of a doubt only feeds the paranoid and increases the divide. We got enough misinformation as it is, and that's just silly.
You know the mandate got overturned, right?

The breadth and depth of the topics for which you're completely full of shit knows no bounds.

No, it did not. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/06/17/supreme-court-upholds-affordable-care-act/?sh=b67d64b372ca)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 04, 2021, 09:43:22 PM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

They have emergency approval and will gain final approval next month (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/us/politics/pfizer-vaccine-approval.html).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 04, 2021, 09:45:03 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.

It was never sold as a 100% cure. They accurately reported the percentage effectiveness against each strain as it arose and none of those were 100%.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 04, 2021, 09:45:08 PM
Masks were tried in pretty much every country / locale in the world. They didn't stop the spread anywhere.
Shutdowns were tried in pretty much every country / locale in the world. They didn't stop the spread anywhere.

In the US, cases fell naturally in spring following the seasonal variation. The vaccines had nominal (~5%) penetration into the overall population during the period of greatest decline.

Now here we are 6 months later, with the South US experiencing normal seasonal variation. In most places we are looking at 80-90% vaccination rates among the vulnerable (65+) population. Most locations in the US are similar.

Israel is more than 90% vaccinated and going into full masking both indoors and outdoors(!). Lockdowns are coming soon.
Iceland has the world's 3rd highest vaccinations and currently has more cases than they've ever had. They are saying restrictions for the next 15 years.
Australia is on complete military-enforced lockdown and still experiencing a spike in "cases" because 13 people 80-90 years old died.

Knowing mask mandates didn't work before, should we advocate for them?
Knowing lockdowns didn't work before, should we advocate for them?

Are we okay with physically assaulting people, and killing them, to enforce these policies? Because that's what it takes.

In the past century we had a number of evil governments that used human test subjects to experiment on. In many cases, these experiments provided valuable insights that could save a lot of lives. What's the argument for why we don't do that today?

At what point is it too much? Because it seems like a lot of people only care about this one metric and really aren't considering anything beyond escaping from a current campaign of psychological torture.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 04, 2021, 09:59:42 PM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

They have emergency approval and will gain final approval next month (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/us/politics/pfizer-vaccine-approval.html).

Good for them. One hurdle down, assuming everything goes well.

But that doesn't change the fact that the government has encouraged mass vaccinations with a vaccine that still only has emergency approval, has immunized themselves from legal responsibility for unforseen side effects, and has discouraged reporting of vaccine side effects.

They've got a long way to go before I even consider getting one of these vaccinations.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 04, 2021, 10:03:59 PM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.

Hahahah that's not going to happen! What's probably going to happen is something similar to that Obama Care rule, if you can afford health insurance and chooses not to, than you'd be paying a little extra on your taxes. Giving these tweets the benefit of a doubt only feeds the paranoid and increases the divide. We got enough misinformation as it is, and that's just silly.
You know the mandate got overturned, right?

The breadth and depth of the topics for which you're completely full of shit knows no bounds.

No, it did not. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/06/17/supreme-court-upholds-affordable-care-act/?sh=b67d64b372ca)
The mandate penalty is now zero, and has been since 2019.

*shrugs*

You'll have to find some other way to get your tyranny fix.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 05:12:27 AM
I have a question for you. What should be done if it does turn out that there are serious, long term health issues with the vaccinations?

Tweak the next batch of vaccines. Which still sucks for those vaccinated with the first one. This question, however, ignores a lots of context:

- The vaccines used first had to go through approval. Not everyone of them was accepted. The Russian and Chinese ones aren't accepted by both the EMA and the FDA, for example (the FDA has the list of vaccines authorised "for emergency use" on their front page; the EMA calls this list "safe vaccines"). What does "approval" means? What are the procedures? I do know them. I wonder how many others do.

- Maybe the vaccines will sux. The alternative is COVID (I sometimes wonder why the anti-Vaxxers who consider vaccines more dangerous that "this trivial flu" don't just get a shot of COVID and shut up).

- Seldom, in the tirades against the vaccines, I see "And now let's see what is the alternative - the risk of getting COVID - before making a choice." When this is done, COVID is usually trivialized. I use the work "usually" because this is not the case in Northern Italy. After Bergamo, no one trivializes COVID over here.

- Having COVID out there like wildfire helps the appearance of variants. When that imbecile of Governor DeSantis opened up Florida while the pandemic was on afterburner he didn't simply create a superspreader event: some of the first variants were seen there. It is the variants, Delta in primis, that are causing the current scare, not the original COVID.

- Re: "The Danmask Study", of course many grabbed it as the Lost Tablets from Moses - without looking further for independent analysis.

https://rebelem.com/the-danmask-19-trial-masks-not-effective-to-prevent-covid-19-not-so-fast/

"Clinical Take Home Point: This trial does not answer the question of “do masks reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 infection.” While this is what the researchers sought to study, what they actually studied is the compliance rate with a recommendation to wear masks which was low in this cohort.  In a population that predominantly does not wear masks, this trial does not give us information on masks effects with more widespread mask wearing in the community. Additionally, with no clarity on how other public health measures were upheld and whether masks were worn correctly, there are too many confounders that limit the results of this trial. Until better evidence is available, wearing a mask is simple, has minimal harm, and should be recommended at this time.

This is one example. Other independent analysis reached the same conclusion. "Research" should never end once you find someone that agrees with you.

- Last but not least, we have the usual, very basic factoid: These "Kung-flu" guys come from "the bestest country in the World in everythingest!!!!11", they still managed to have 25% of the World deaths with only 4% of the population, and they are still lecturing?? America, right now, is The Shining City On A Hill About What Not To Do During A Pandemic. Climb down from your high horse, fix your country, exercise some self-criticism and leave alone countries who did better than you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 05, 2021, 05:30:37 AM
I have a question for you. What should be done if it does turn out that there are serious, long term health issues with the vaccinations?

Tweak the next batch of vaccines. Which still sucks for those vaccinated with the first one. This question, however, ignores a lots of context:

- The vaccines used first had to go through approval. Not everyone of them was accepted. The Russian and Chinese ones aren't accepted by both the EMA and the FDA, for example (the FDA has the list of vaccines authorised "for emergency use" on their front page; the EMA calls this list "safe vaccines"). What does "approval" means? What are the procedures? I do know them. I wonder how many others do.

- Maybe the vaccines will sux. The alternative is COVID (I sometimes wonder why the anti-Vaxxers who consider vaccines more dangerous that "this trivial flu" don't just get a shot of COVID and shut up).

There are a lot of silly takes regarding Covid. There are people wearing masks with flaps that open up so they can eat while "masking".
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-52728998

Personally, I wouldn't want a shot of flu in any case. Flu sucks. And I don't know how dangerous Covid is compared to the vaccinations. We only have a few months of data, and those data are incomplete by design.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 06:23:35 AM
There are a lot of silly takes regarding Covid. There are people wearing masks with flaps that open up so they can eat while "masking".
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-52728998

Personally, I wouldn't want a shot of flu in any case. Flu sucks. And I don't know how dangerous Covid is compared to the vaccinations. We only have a few months of data, and those data are incomplete by design.

How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.

Maybe I'll have two headed kids. For sure the vaccine gave me two days of fever. COVID can give me from long-term to permanent organ damage:

From Mayo Clinic:

"Although COVID-19 is seen as a disease that primarily affects the lungs, it can damage many other organs as well. This organ damage may increase the risk of long-term health problems. Organs that may be affected by COVID-19 include:

Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.

Lungs. The type of pneumonia often associated with COVID-19 can cause long-standing damage to the tiny air sacs (alveoli) in the lungs. The resulting scar tissue can lead to long-term breathing problems.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. COVID-19 may also increase the risk of developing Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease."


Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 06:29:16 AM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

They have emergency approval and will gain final approval next month (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/us/politics/pfizer-vaccine-approval.html).

Good for them. One hurdle down, assuming everything goes well.

But that doesn't change the fact that the government has encouraged mass vaccinations with a vaccine that still only has emergency approval, has immunized themselves from legal responsibility for unforseen side effects, and has discouraged reporting of vaccine side effects.

They've got a long way to go before I even consider getting one of these vaccinations.
They're rushing the final approval. It's getting a fair amount of criticism, and not just from partisan sources. (For instance, Kevin Drum, formerly of Mother Jones, doesn't think it should be rushed.)

The government has immunized the pharma companies, not the government itself. Though it's often difficult to sue government entities.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 06:41:08 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation. If you just consider the immediate, obvious effects there's a very good chance the conclusions you draw will be completely wrong. The unknown long term side effects of the vaccines must be considered in any risk assessment.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 05, 2021, 08:00:29 AM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

They have emergency approval and will gain final approval next month (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/us/politics/pfizer-vaccine-approval.html).

Good for them. One hurdle down, assuming everything goes well.

But that doesn't change the fact that the government has encouraged mass vaccinations with a vaccine that still only has emergency approval, has immunized themselves from legal responsibility for unforseen side effects, and has discouraged reporting of vaccine side effects.

They've got a long way to go before I even consider getting one of these vaccinations.
They're rushing the final approval. It's getting a fair amount of criticism, and not just from partisan sources. (For instance, Kevin Drum, formerly of Mother Jones, doesn't think it should be rushed.)

The government has immunized the pharma companies, not the government itself. Though it's often difficult to sue government entities.
Government promises of immunity are worth precisely the paper they're printed on.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 08:10:35 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 05, 2021, 08:14:22 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 08:26:11 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 08:41:59 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
I live in Florida. I have no doubts my governor will do whatever it takes to increase his chances with his political base...even if it were to lead to their deaths. So, yeah. I can see it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 05, 2021, 09:12:27 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
Nope.

You're a bright boy, though. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

If you need help: https://spectatorworld.com/topic/new-york-times-quashed-covid-origins-inquiry/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 09:23:34 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
I live in Florida. I have no doubts my governor will do whatever it takes to increase his chances with his political base...even if it were to lead to their deaths. So, yeah. I can see it.

Me too:

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 05, 2021, 09:33:20 AM
HappyDerp, continuing to pretend that Andrew Cuomo didn't kill 15,000+ New Yorkers with his policies.

Until Cuomo's doing a perp walk, I don't want to hear shit about anyone else, bitches.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 09:42:12 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
Nope.

You're a bright boy, though. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Are you sure you don't work for Evil Hat?  :D

Quote
If you need help: https://spectatorworld.com/topic/new-york-times-quashed-covid-origins-inquiry/

And?

Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 09:45:57 AM
HappyDerp, continuing to pretend that Andrew Cuomo didn't kill 15,000+ New Yorkers with his policies.

Until Cuomo's doing a perp walk, I don't want to hear shit about anyone else, bitches.
I haven't said shit on Coumo, neither for or against. I don't live in NY. He's not my governor. Fuck off now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 09:54:08 AM
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.

Maybe some of us who are questioning the experimental, EUA only, shots aren't very scared and question why some people are going out of their way to muddy the situation. 

- for example (in the US)....
scary new 'delta' variant, huge spike in cases, weekly death rates almost unchanged
no flu deaths last season, FDA pulls PCR test which can't discern between flu/covid,
'breakthrough' cases only counted if person with shot is actually hospitalized'...


And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?


- Last but not least, we have the usual, very basic factoid: These "Kung-flu" guys come from "the bestest country in the World in everythingest!!!!11", they still managed to have 25% of the World deaths with only 4% of the population, and they are still lecturing?? America, right now, is The Shining City On A Hill About What Not To Do During A Pandemic. Climb down from your high horse, fix your country, exercise some self-criticism and leave alone countries who did better than you.

And?

Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)

Maybe because the US death total is around 14% of the total not 25%.... (and that is assuming China is telling the truth)
Maybe because we have had similar results to the EU meaning there hasn't been much difference on either side of the pond....

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home

People might take you seriously if you dialed back the hyperbole and actually examined the questions some of us have raised about the pandemic, the shots, and why information is being suppressed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 12:01:30 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 12:33:38 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 12:39:07 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
"Policeman notes most people he meets while working are criminals!  News at 11!"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 12:45:41 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
"Policeman notes most people he meets while working are criminals!  News at 11!"
My point is that young and healthy people are at risk and are dying even if you are in denial. Florida, in particular, is getting hit hard right now. I hear Louisiana is bad too, but I don't have firsthand accounts on that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 12:52:57 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
"Policeman notes most people he meets while working are criminals!  News at 11!"
My point is that young and healthy people are at risk and are dying even if you are in denial. Florida, in particular, is getting hit hard right now. I hear Louisiana is bad too, but I don't have firsthand accounts on that.

firsthand accounts = Anecdotal "evidence"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 01:22:22 PM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.
No, that just you in your bubble. There are real and severe side effects to the vaccines, and they're widely reported and documented on all credible medical websites. And running human experiments on 2.5 billion people doesn't miraculously cause time dilation. We don't know the long term side effects because it hasn't been long enough.

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?
Covid-19.
19.
2019.
We're in the 8th month of 2021.
If tigers took 2 years to complete a jump, they'd starve in mid air.

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Nobody's avoiding your question. It's just there's so much gibberish and misinformation in your posts, that it's exhausting responding to everything, even when it's intelligible. Which is the problem in this case. What's 4%? What's 25%? I'm guessing you might be referring to the proportion of deaths in the US, but you didn't actually say that, so I don't really know. If you want answers, don't make people infer what you fail to say.

Quick answer:

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Doc Sammy on August 05, 2021, 01:55:39 PM
Welcome to the new Dark Ages.

Feudalism, theocracy, and serfdom are coming back. Only this time the serfdom is urban instead of agrarian and the theocracy is leftist instead of Abrahamic

The pandemic is just the beginning.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 03:00:12 PM
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Deaths per 1M population:

USA #21
Italy #16

What did Italy do wrong that it had a 128163/4377188 = 2.9% CFR
compared to the US 631362/36190896 = 1.7% CFR?

Why is Italian medicine so incompetent?  What could they have done differently (like the US) to save more of their countrymen from dying from this terrible disease?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on August 05, 2021, 03:04:32 PM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
Nope.

You're a bright boy, though. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Are you sure you don't work for Evil Hat?  :D

Quote
If you need help: https://spectatorworld.com/topic/new-york-times-quashed-covid-origins-inquiry/

And?

Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)

Greetings!

How did America screw up? We follow along with the narrative put forth by the cock-sucking Marxist politicians that want more power, and one avenue to gaining more power is to encourage hysteria and promote a crisis that somehow requires America to shut down our economy and make everyone poor. And increase the numbers of people desperately dependent upon the Federal Government.

How did America screw up? By letting more Marxists and globalists and woke fucking morons gain power. In schools, business, entertainment, the media, and government. You can expect MORE corruption, and more clusterfucking from America, rather than less. The whole country is in a process of being run just like the states of New York, California, Oregon, and Washington. Everything is likely to get far more worse before anything ever gets better.

That's what happens when you let Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalists, and woke fucking morons get into controlling your government and culture.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 03:14:51 PM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
Nope.

You're a bright boy, though. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Are you sure you don't work for Evil Hat?  :D

Quote
If you need help: https://spectatorworld.com/topic/new-york-times-quashed-covid-origins-inquiry/

And?

Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)

Greetings!

How did America screw up? We follow along with the narrative put forth by the cock-sucking Marxist politicians that want more power, and one avenue to gaining more power is to encourage hysteria and promote a crisis that somehow requires America to shut down our economy and make everyone poor. And increase the numbers of people desperately dependent upon the Federal Government.

How did America screw up? By letting more Marxists and globalists and woke fucking morons gain power. In schools, business, entertainment, the media, and government. You can expect MORE corruption, and more clusterfucking from America, rather than less. The whole country is in a process of being run just like the states of New York, California, Oregon, and Washington. Everything is likely to get far more worse before anything ever gets better.

That's what happens when you let Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalists, and woke fucking morons get into controlling your government and culture.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Trump held the reigns for the first year of Covid. What combination of "Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalist, and woke fucking morons" would you put him and his "best people" into?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 05, 2021, 03:29:38 PM
Meanwhile Jen 'Circle Back' Psaki straight up admits the Bidenharris misadministration is dumping COVID-positive illegals into Texas.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 03:33:37 PM
Trump held the reigns for the first year of Covid. What combination of "Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalist, and woke fucking morons" would you put him and his "best people" into?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Of the top four of states with the highest deaths per 1M, 3 have democrat governors (with that noted Red state Massachusetts being the exception).  All locked down and the top 2 (NY & NJ) put Covid cases into old-folks homes, causing most of the deaths.  Florida is 26th.  Texas is 25th (both at 1/2 the rate of NY).  Looks like the northeastern states are the ones that screwed up the most, and Trump didn't win a single one of them...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 04:04:22 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
"Policeman notes most people he meets while working are criminals!  News at 11!"
My point is that young and healthy people are at risk and are dying even if you are in denial. Florida, in particular, is getting hit hard right now. I hear Louisiana is bad too, but I don't have firsthand accounts on that.

firsthand accounts = Anecdotal "evidence"
It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 04:06:36 PM
Trump held the reigns for the first year of Covid. What combination of "Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalist, and woke fucking morons" would you put him and his "best people" into?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Of the top four of states with the highest deaths per 1M, 3 have democrat governors (with that noted Red state Massachusetts being the exception).  All locked down and the top 2 (NY & NJ) put Covid cases into old-folks homes, causing most of the deaths.  Florida is 26th.  Texas is 25th (both at 1/2 the rate of NY).  Looks like the northeastern states are the ones that screwed up the most, and Trump didn't win a single one of them...
Win those states or not, the guy at the top takes ultimate blame, whether that's Trump or Biden (I'm not fond of either).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 04:22:04 PM
Hey SHARK...Do you know this guy?   ;D

https://twitter.com/Saint_BTC/status/1420942302399262727
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 04:49:54 PM
Trump held the reigns for the first year of Covid. What combination of "Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalist, and woke fucking morons" would you put him and his "best people" into?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Of the top four of states with the highest deaths per 1M, 3 have democrat governors (with that noted Red state Massachusetts being the exception).  All locked down and the top 2 (NY & NJ) put Covid cases into old-folks homes, causing most of the deaths.  Florida is 26th.  Texas is 25th (both at 1/2 the rate of NY).  Looks like the northeastern states are the ones that screwed up the most, and Trump didn't win a single one of them...
Win those states or not, the guy at the top takes ultimate blame, whether that's Trump or Biden (I'm not fond of either).
The "guy at the top" is the governor.  That's how our Republic works.  Of course, I recognize the totalitarian types here would much rather live under a dictatorship, but that's not how the U.S. works...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 04:58:07 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on August 05, 2021, 05:29:13 PM
Hey SHARK...Do you know this guy?   ;D

https://twitter.com/Saint_BTC/status/1420942302399262727

Greetings!

FUCKING OOH RAH! Damn right I know him! ;D He seems like an outstanding Marine Veteran! Funny as hell, too! I just loved his straight expression at the end. That's right, brother! I'm not running any damn where, and no one is going to force me to do anything.

Loved that video, my friend!

I really wish our country would wake the hell up and stop being such weak fucking pussies, and so eager to get on their fucking knees, you know? This country used to pride itself on being rugged, masculine, and independent.

That's what happens when all these people swallow Marxism and Feminism. So fucking eager to stay on their knees and be obedient to the fucking women. Don't offend the precious women! Don't make the women feel uncomfortable or triggered! Everything must be safe! No one can ever feel excluded! Whaa! Whaa! Whaa! Don't dare offend anyone!

See, back in the day, when some moron threatened a man, or insulted him, the police weren't called. The man just drew on him and smoked the fucker. Or jackasses just got fucking beat down. BEAT! Conversely, in a general sense, people were accustomed to living in a harsh, brutal world where people said "offensive" things to others all the time. There is no Constitutional protection allowing you to never be offended. People can say whatever the fuck they want. It creates a truly free environment where people have to learn to be independent, and actually function like reasonable adults, instead of like sobbing, crying bitches and soy boys. *Sigh* This is what our society and culture have come to. Corrupt, and decadent, and absolutely feminized, sniveling, and weak.

It is inspiring to see a few of us still holding true to being free, strong, and independent, like the man in your video. Fucking outstanding! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 05, 2021, 05:51:09 PM
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.

I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid for ages 30 to 39 range from 0.1% to 0.3%, so if we use an average of 0.2% times the population of Florida (2.6 million aged 30 to 39) equals 5 200 people.

So if you work in healthcare in Florida then yes I would expect you to see "a few" die from the Wuhan Covid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 05:52:11 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
"Policeman notes most people he meets while working are criminals!  News at 11!"
My point is that young and healthy people are at risk and are dying even if you are in denial. Florida, in particular, is getting hit hard right now. I hear Louisiana is bad too, but I don't have firsthand accounts on that.

firsthand accounts = Anecdotal "evidence"
It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Sources? Trust me bro!

Yeah, I'm an eskeptic, I do not trust people, I trust evidence, Anecdotical evidence isn't evidence. Plus appeals to authority? Seriously?

That's a fallacy, a no-no when dealing with people using logic.

Your argument is the same as : "It's true because the Bible says so"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 05:56:07 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.

You have to remember those prophylactics are out of patent, ergo there's not a big ammount of money in using those.

Meanwhile with the vaccines the pharmaceuticals have made Billions!

I'm sure it's a "conspiracy theory" and a "Extreme right talking point"

Funny how many of those have been proven to be true in a short ammount of time no?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 06:22:33 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.
I pity you too. Try not to die from your own stupidity...or that of your herd.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 06:25:42 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.

You have to remember those prophylactics are out of patent, ergo there's not a big ammount of money in using those.

Meanwhile with the vaccines the pharmaceuticals have made Billions!

I'm sure it's a "conspiracy theory" and a "Extreme right talking point"

Funny how many of those have been proven to be true in a short ammount of time no?
You talk of evidence but then claim your idiotic points have been proven true. You are a fucking ignorant shit that needs to be flushed. But considering your sad situation, you too have my pity.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 06:34:21 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.

You have to remember those prophylactics are out of patent, ergo there's not a big ammount of money in using those.

Meanwhile with the vaccines the pharmaceuticals have made Billions!

I'm sure it's a "conspiracy theory" and a "Extreme right talking point"

Funny how many of those have been proven to be true in a short ammount of time no?
You talk of evidence but then claim your idiotic points have been proven true. You are a fucking ignorant shit that needs to be flushed. But considering your sad situation, you too have my pity.

Lets see my dear smoothbrain:

At least one of those demonized prophylactic treatments is now recognized it does help prevent hospitalization/death.

The Lab Leak theory?

And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

Is there a link? Maybe, but you'll claim there isn't and then pretend you didn't IF it ever is proven there's one.

As for your insults...

For you to be able to offend me I would need to care about your opinion, I don't, you're just another NPC.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 06:48:52 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.

You have to remember those prophylactics are out of patent, ergo there's not a big ammount of money in using those.

Meanwhile with the vaccines the pharmaceuticals have made Billions!

I'm sure it's a "conspiracy theory" and a "Extreme right talking point"

Funny how many of those have been proven to be true in a short ammount of time no?
You talk of evidence but then claim your idiotic points have been proven true. You are a fucking ignorant shit that needs to be flushed. But considering your sad situation, you too have my pity.

Lets see my dear smoothbrain:

At least one of those demonized prophylactic treatments is now recognized it does help prevent hospitalization/death.

The Lab Leak theory?

And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

Is there a link? Maybe, but you'll claim there isn't and then pretend you didn't IF it ever is proven there's one.

As for your insults...

For you to be able to offend me I would need to care about your opinion, I don't, you're just another NPC.
It's great that we agree that neithet of us give a shit about what the other thinks. Well now, that's one thing we got.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 07:47:57 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 08:27:35 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.

The plot thickens.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 05, 2021, 08:39:30 PM
Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)


Seriously, what do you think that the US did wrong? Because in the US we had lockdowns for months, we had universal masking mandates for months.

You seem to be angry about your father dying. That's understandable and a legitimate tragedy.

I'll speak to my own experience here. (Note: Minor details changed for privacy). During the lockdowns my mother died. She has had ongoing health issues for many years but was mobile, active, and mentally sharp. Last year she suffered a fall and my family put her in a care home. At the time her prognosis was good, and she was on the road to recovery. However, Covid lockdowns came into effect and she was completely isolated in a single room and not permitted to see any other residents or visitors.

During the lockdown you could tell the extended isolation was taking a toll on her. We would talk regularly but it was apparent that her mental well being was declining without the ability to go outside, talk, or see another person face to face. When we talked she told me she kept looking forward to a certain date when she'd be allowed to see people and move around freely again.

Eventually after weeks of isolation she suffered some kind of cardiac issue that led to her being taken to the hospital. However, after a brief diagnosis she was denied ongoing hospital care due to reserving space for Covid patients. She was returned to the care home and again put into a quarantine during which no visitors or family were permitted. She died after a month of being imprisoned in a room and not being permitted to see any of her loved ones. I have no doubt that if she were actually among people who cared for her, she would be alive today.

The fact of the matter is everyone dies. We must always make choices about how we live, because we don't have a choice about dying. I am absolutely certain my mother would not have chosen to die having been isolated into a sterile room, never being allowed to talk face to face with loved ones, hold their hands, hug them, or kiss them. This type of policy is cruel and violates human dignity and respect for the individual.

While I understand the desire to protect people, I find it alarming and reckless when we take dramatic actions that are not supported with available evidence, violate decades of established medical practice, and threaten to eliminate all freedom in society.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 09:31:26 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.
I'm not fluent enough in FDA bureaucratese to know one way or the other, but that sounds both plausible... and dubious. Do you or anyone else have a solid source for that?

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 05, 2021, 09:34:00 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read. Below it was "Bah ha ah ah yup."

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post, on Sunday Aug 1, with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 09:40:56 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.  That has yet to be determined.  But don't let me slow down your grave-dancing.

BTW, would you like me to post a couple of dozen stories of people who have died of Covid after taking the vaccine?  They are out there.  But single stories aren't evidence of anything, other than lightning can strike sometimes...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 05, 2021, 09:41:08 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read. Below it was "Bah ha ah ah yup."

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

You think we're not aware that people have died with Covid? This does not change my risk assesment.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 05, 2021, 09:43:28 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.  That has yet to be determined.  But don't let me slow down your grave-dancing.

BTW, would you like me to post a couple of dozen stories of people who have died of Covid after taking the vaccine?  They are out there.  But single stories aren't evidence of anything, other than lightning can strike sometimes...

Where are you getting he was morbidly obese? I've seen nothing verifying that anywhere.

I am not grave dancing. He has a little baby. This is horrible and nothing to be happy about. WTF is wrong with you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 05, 2021, 09:44:46 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read. Below it was "Bah ha ah ah yup."

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

You think we're not aware that people have died with Covid? This does not change my risk assesment.

I figured hearing a guy who thinks like you about this topic just died of it while thinking it was all bullshit like you do. I figured empathy might kick in a little? Some questioning if maybe the J&J is not that scary?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 09:45:46 PM
I'll speak to my own experience here. (Note: Minor details changed for privacy). During the lockdowns my mother died. She has had ongoing health issues for many years but was mobile, active, and mentally sharp. Last year she suffered a fall and my family put her in a care home. At the time her prognosis was good, and she was on the road to recovery. However, Covid lockdowns came into effect and she was completely isolated in a single room and not permitted to see any other residents or visitors.

During the lockdown you could tell the extended isolation was taking a toll on her. We would talk regularly but it was apparent that her mental well being was declining without the ability to go outside, talk, or see another person face to face. When we talked she told me she kept looking forward to a certain date when she'd be allowed to see people and move around freely again.

Eventually after weeks of isolation she suffered some kind of cardiac issue that led to her being taken to the hospital. However, after a brief diagnosis she was denied ongoing hospital care due to reserving space for Covid patients. She was returned to the care home and again put into a quarantine during which no visitors or family were permitted. She died after a month of being imprisoned in a room and not being permitted to see any of her loved ones. I have no doubt that if she were actually among people who cared for her, she would be alive today.

The fact of the matter is everyone dies. We must always make choices about how we live, because we don't have a choice about dying. I am absolutely certain my mother would not have chosen to die having been isolated into a sterile room, never being allowed to talk face to face with loved ones, hold their hands, hug them, or kiss them. This type of policy is cruel and violates human dignity and respect for the individual.

While I understand the desire to protect people, I find it alarming and reckless when we take dramatic actions that are not supported with available evidence, violate decades of established medical practice, and threaten to eliminate all freedom in society.
I have an experience that's similar in kind, though not in degree.

And I think it's a very important point, in general, beyond the specifics of any particular case. Survival and well-being among the elderly seems to be strongly tied to engagement. I know an elderly man who fought off a mugger -- I'm talking about a man in his late 70s rolling around on the ground with a man in his 20s, because he refused to give up his wallet -- and barring a few scratches and bruises, he was fine afterwards. But just 2 years later, his wife passed away, and despite being just as physically capable as he was when he fought off the mugger, he died within 3 months. His death was of natural causes, but the real reason was he gave up.

Covid-19 is removing those personal connections. Elderly people living in congregate care homes have been stuck in their rooms, and denied the socialization that keeps them engaged and alive. Elderly people living alone were in a much better position to avoid catching covid-19 -- but were in even worse shape, when it comes to socialization. I know a number who have markedly declined during this period, because there was nothing keeping them active and engaged; a Zoom or Duo meeting once or twice a week with their grandchildren isn't enough. One who recently moved halfway across the country to live with her son's family has improved in a lot of ways and her decline was arrested (remarkably, all her blood work miraculously improved), but it hasn't reversed the decline in mobility and self-sufficiency that occurred during the year of covid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 09:58:47 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.  That has yet to be determined.  But don't let me slow down your grave-dancing.

BTW, would you like me to post a couple of dozen stories of people who have died of Covid after taking the vaccine?  They are out there.  But single stories aren't evidence of anything, other than lightning can strike sometimes...

Where are you getting he was morbidly obese? I've seen nothing verifying that anywhere.

I am not grave dancing. He has a little baby. This is horrible and nothing to be happy about. WTF is wrong with you?

Google is your friend

https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=h+scott+apley+dickinson+tx&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiGvf7ZpZvyAhVFX60KHan8CSEQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1280&bih=873#imgrc=MMBsXQ0wyx6bsM (https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=h+scott+apley+dickinson+tx&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiGvf7ZpZvyAhVFX60KHan8CSEQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1280&bih=873#imgrc=MMBsXQ0wyx6bsM)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 05, 2021, 10:02:53 PM
Where are you getting he was morbidly obese? I've seen nothing verifying that anywhere.

10 seconds on google.

https://www.rawstory.com/media-library/eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJpbWFnZSI6Imh0dHBzOi8vYXNzZXRzLnJibC5tcy8yNzEzODcwNi9vcmlnaW4ucG5nIiwiZXhwaXJlc19hdCI6MTY0MDI2ODIwNH0.Ctrjewp9HcR-HpyXWYcupPDX9qNyiaj3XVfXanPhd_Y/image.png?width=1200&coordinates=0%2C0%2C0%2C50&height=600

You think we're not aware that people have died with Covid? This does not change my risk assesment.

I figured hearing a guy who thinks like you about this topic just died of it while thinking it was all bullshit like you do. I figured empathy might kick in a little? Some questioning if maybe the J&J is not that scary?

It doesn't sound like I agree with anything he said. You may be lumping all the posters here into one strawman.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 10:13:19 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.
I'm not fluent enough in FDA bureaucratese to know one way or the other, but that sounds both plausible... and dubious. Do you or anyone else have a solid source for that?

Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines to Prevent COVID-19
Guidance for Industry

https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download

Page 3, bullet point 4
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 10:14:10 PM
I figured hearing a guy who thinks like you about this topic just died of it while thinking it was all bullshit like you do. I figured empathy might kick in a little? Some questioning if maybe the J&J is not that scary?
Bullshit.  You couldn't care less about this guy.  The only reason you even know about him is that you think he proves some political point.  You have no idea how either Apley or Ratman "think" about this issue (especially since you are relying on news reports and social media for Apley's opinions).  The fact that you think this has anything to do with peoples' vaccine hesitancy shows you are clueless about how they think.  Honestly, this kind of post just proves you are moral navel-lint...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 10:37:06 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.
I'm not fluent enough in FDA bureaucratese to know one way or the other, but that sounds both plausible... and dubious. Do you or anyone else have a solid source for that?

Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines to Prevent COVID-19
Guidance for Industry

https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download

Page 3, bullet point 4
Good link, but not what I was referring to. That just says no alternative. This isn't a situation where the plain wording is relevant, it's about how it's interpreted. Is a vax the same as a prophylactic? That requires some legal/regulatory/medical assessment. I'd like to hear someone familiar with similar cases in the pharma industry talk about how it applies to the covid-19 vaxxes.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 05, 2021, 10:41:59 PM
Please, get your vaccines guys.

My dad was vaccinated, still got sick. Don't know if it helped or not.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 11:10:20 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.
I'm not fluent enough in FDA bureaucratese to know one way or the other, but that sounds both plausible... and dubious. Do you or anyone else have a solid source for that?

Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines to Prevent COVID-19
Guidance for Industry

https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download

Page 3, bullet point 4
Good link, but not what I was referring to. That just says no alternative. This isn't a situation where the plain wording is relevant, it's about how it's interpreted. Is a vax the same as a prophylactic? That requires some legal/regulatory/medical assessment. I'd like to hear someone familiar with similar cases in the pharma industry talk about how it applies to the covid-19 vaxxes.

The heading for that section...emphasis mine

Quote
On the basis of such determination,
on March 27, 2020, the Secretary then declared that circumstances exist justifying the authorization
of emergency use of drugs and biological products during the COVID-19 pandemic, pursuant to
section 564(b)(1) of the FD&C Act (21 U.S.C. 360bbb-3(b)(1)).

Looks to me like they are not differentiating between the two...

And considering how much money, power, and control is on the table...no way do I trust anything other than a straight interpretation.

Remember the study that came out back in January saying the HCQ cocktail seems to work, yet still no authorization...Its been around for 70 years or so.  In most places outside the US it was an OTC med, but here Drs still have to prescribe it 'Off Label' for Covid...I'm gonna go with plain reading and it being a CYA for the pharma companies/government.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 11:16:22 PM
And considering how much money, power, and control is on the table...no way do I trust anything other than a straight interpretation.
I think precedent is more important. Is this how it's normally interpreted, or is this exceptional?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 11:29:36 PM
And considering how much money, power, and control is on the table...no way do I trust anything other than a straight interpretation.
I think precedent is more important. Is this how it's normally interpreted, or is this exceptional?

There might be something from the 2009 swine flu stuff.  That is the only time I know for sure that EUA was used during a prior pandemic.

side note:   a friend just reminded me that HCQ had an EUA at one point but it was then revoked...

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 05, 2021, 11:50:35 PM
Fire anyone who refuses the vax!

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/08/05/1025319741/cnn-fires-three-employees-work-unvaccinated?utm_campaign=npr&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=nprnews&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3rKyetIY2DK1bN4ofH7U9s70FgaGLMu-H9uQmFOBHILFQIEhtxqDXg5Tg

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 06, 2021, 12:12:20 AM
I figured hearing a guy who thinks like you about this topic just died of it while thinking it was all bullshit like you do. I figured empathy might kick in a little? Some questioning if maybe the J&J is not that scary?
Bullshit.  You couldn't care less about this guy.  The only reason you even know about him is that you think he proves some political point.  You have no idea how either Apley or Ratman "think" about this issue (especially since you are relying on news reports and social media for Apley's opinions).  The fact that you think this has anything to do with peoples' vaccine hesitancy shows you are clueless about how they think.  Honestly, this kind of post just proves you are moral navel-lint...

Dude, what possible political point would it prove? I have a kid. Of course I care about a dad who just died leaving behind a tiny baby. I want you guys to get vaccinate. I don't want to see this happen to you like it happened to this guy. And I LOOKED AT HIS POST to rely on what he said. I saw the post he made, directly. You can too. Go look.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 06, 2021, 12:14:12 AM
I love how you guys are diagnosing someone as "morbidly obese" from pictures from the chest up which just shows a bigger guy (who is tall as well). OK, I guess we have doctors posting on therpgsite now too. Jesus fuck, you guys are something sometimes. Anything to protect your world view. Can't be you're in danger - must find some excuse for why it could never be you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 12:19:38 AM
And considering how much money, power, and control is on the table...no way do I trust anything other than a straight interpretation.
I think precedent is more important. Is this how it's normally interpreted, or is this exceptional?

There might be something from the 2009 swine flu stuff.  That is the only time I know for sure that EUA was used during a prior pandemic.

side note:   a friend just reminded me that HCQ had an EUA at one point but it was then revoked...
There are probably legal interpretations in the planning material, as well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2021, 12:20:30 AM
I figured hearing a guy who thinks like you about this topic just died of it while thinking it was all bullshit like you do. I figured empathy might kick in a little? Some questioning if maybe the J&J is not that scary?
Bullshit.  You couldn't care less about this guy.  The only reason you even know about him is that you think he proves some political point.  You have no idea how either Apley or Ratman "think" about this issue (especially since you are relying on news reports and social media for Apley's opinions).  The fact that you think this has anything to do with peoples' vaccine hesitancy shows you are clueless about how they think.  Honestly, this kind of post just proves you are moral navel-lint...

Dude, what possible political point would it prove? I have a kid. Of course I care about a dad who just died leaving behind a tiny baby. I want you guys to get vaccinate. I don't want to see this happen to you like it happened to this guy. And I LOOKED AT HIS POST to rely on what he said. I saw the post he made, directly. You can too. Go look.
You dolt, I've been vaccinated.  That doesn't mean I have any illusions as to the exaggerated effectiveness or the utility for healthy people.  If you believe that you can compare what I think to what Ratman thinks to what a person you've never even talked to based on a handful of social media posts, you are dumber than I thought.  As for your motives, we all know the truth.  How many stories have you posted about the literally millions of people who've gotten Covid but recovered?  Just the one about the "vax-denier" who died.  You are despicable.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 06, 2021, 12:31:55 AM
I love how you guys are diagnosing someone as "morbidly obese" from pictures from the chest up which just shows a bigger guy (who is tall as well). OK, I guess we have doctors posting on therpgsite now too. Jesus fuck, you guys are something sometimes. Anything to protect your world view. Can't be you're in danger - must find some excuse for why it could never be you.

Dude. He's fat.

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/galvnews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/d7/7d7a75f4-2d99-5321-ad8a-a1c870f57b0f/610b0f0f33bbd.image.jpg?resize=400%2C402)

It's this kind of screeching that causes me to question your motivations for posting the article.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2021, 12:56:22 AM
I love how you guys are diagnosing someone as "morbidly obese" from pictures from the chest up which just shows a bigger guy (who is tall as well). OK, I guess we have doctors posting on therpgsite now too. Jesus fuck, you guys are something sometimes. Anything to protect your world view. Can't be you're in danger - must find some excuse for why it could never be you.

Dude. He's fat.

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/galvnews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/d7/7d7a75f4-2d99-5321-ad8a-a1c870f57b0f/610b0f0f33bbd.image.jpg?resize=400%2C402)

It's this kind of screeching that causes me to question your motivations for posting the article.

As an Ex-Fat Fuck that's really tall and used to look like the man in the photo (R.I.P.) I can confirm that's not a "Big Guy", that's a fat fuck, very likely morbidly obese, and probably with some other health condition due to being a fat fuck, which is why I choose to get thinner a long while back.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 05:45:52 AM
It was never sold as a 100% cure. They accurately reported the percentage effectiveness against each strain as it arose and none of those were 100%.

Not even 1% efficacy. Utterly pointless and probably making infections worse if Israel's latest data is anything to go by. What a strange coincidence that all the places with the highest level of vaccination also have the highest levels of infection.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

Fuck off, not a chance.

Somehow this "deadly" virus has failed to kill me, or leave any lasting impacts, twice. Might I not even notice it the next time?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 06:09:08 AM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?

Quote
We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.
No, that just you in your bubble. There are real and severe side effects to the vaccines, and they're widely reported and documented on all credible medical websites. And running human experiments on 2.5 billion people doesn't miraculously cause time dilation. We don't know the long term side effects because it hasn't been long enough.

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects

History tells us that severe side effects are extremely rare, and if they do occur, they usually happen within the first two months.

COVID-19 vaccine technologies have been studied for years and used in other treatments without issue.

https://www.uab.edu/reporter/resources/be-healthy/item/9544-what-are-the-long-term-side-effects-of-covid-vaccines-3-things-to-know

In his nearly 30 years studying vaccines, UAB’s Paul Goepfert, M.D., director of the Alabama Vaccine Research Clinic, has never seen anything as effective as the three COVID-19 vaccines — from Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson — available in the United States. “A 90% decrease in risk of infections and 94% effectiveness against hospitalization for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is fantastic,” he said.

But what makes vaccine experts such as Goepfert confident that COVID vaccines are safe in the long-term? We all have seen billboards and TV infomercials from law firms seeking people harmed by diet drugs or acid-reflux medicines for class-action lawsuits. What makes Goepfert think that scientists won’t discover previously unsuspected problems caused by COVID vaccines in the years ahead?

There are several reasons.

Vaccines are eliminated quickly

Vaccine side effects show up within weeks if at all

Our COVID vaccine experience during the past six months

Vaccines, given in one- or two-shot doses, are very different from medicines that people take every day, potentially for years, Goepfert says. And decades of vaccine history — plus data from more than a billion people who have received COVID vaccines since December 2020 — both provide powerful proof that there is little chance that any new dangers will emerge from COVID vaccines.


Are there potential side effects to vaccines? Of course there are. COVID happens to have some side effects too. Let's see a comparison:

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccine-side-effects-vs-covid-19-damage-theres-no-comparison

Experts say that the mild and rare side effects from COVID-19 vaccines are nowhere near as serious as the potential damage the disease itself can cause.

They say that the long-term consequences of COVID-19 can include increased risk of stroke, lung damage, Alzheimer’s disease, and Parkinson’s disease.

They add that there have been reports of rare cases of Bell’s palsy developing from COVID-19 vaccines but that the rate appears to be lower than that of the general population.

Which would you rather have: muscle fatigue or permanent lung damage?

Would you prefer mild, short-term inflammation around the heart or severe damage to that organ that could lead to heart failure?

Would you rather have moderate pain in your upper arm for a few days or increase the possibility of developing Parkinson’s disease or Alzheimer’s disease?

These are just a few examples of the stark contrast between the side effects of COVID-19 vaccines and developing the disease itself.

While the vaccines’ side effects are mild and short, the damage caused by COVID-19 can be long lasting and even fatal.

You disagree with these abstracts? Give me alternatives. Don't babble about "serious medical sites", give me the links. Only a request: please, avoid Breitbart news.
Quote
And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?
Covid-19.
19.
2019.
We're in the 8th month of 2021.
If tigers took 2 years to complete a jump, they'd starve in mid air.

COVID cases in the World as of today: 201,817,159
COVID deaths: 4,283,757

COVID cases in the US as of today: 36,301,744
COVID deaths in the US: 631,879

Daily cases as of today: 705,067

I don't see this tiger starving.

Quote
Nobody's avoiding your question. It's just there's so much gibberish and misinformation in your posts, that it's exhausting responding to everything, even when it's intelligible.

As you see, it can be done.
Quote
Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 06:11:40 AM
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.

Maybe some of us who are questioning the experimental, EUA only, shots aren't very scared and question why some people are going out of their way to muddy the situation. 

- for example (in the US)....
scary new 'delta' variant, huge spike in cases, weekly death rates almost unchanged
no flu deaths last season, FDA pulls PCR test which can't discern between flu/covid,
'breakthrough' cases only counted if person with shot is actually hospitalized'...


And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?


- Last but not least, we have the usual, very basic factoid: These "Kung-flu" guys come from "the bestest country in the World in everythingest!!!!11", they still managed to have 25% of the World deaths with only 4% of the population, and they are still lecturing?? America, right now, is The Shining City On A Hill About What Not To Do During A Pandemic. Climb down from your high horse, fix your country, exercise some self-criticism and leave alone countries who did better than you.

And?

Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)

Maybe because the US death total is around 14% of the total not 25%.... (and that is assuming China is telling the truth)
Maybe because we have had similar results to the EU meaning there hasn't been much difference on either side of the pond....

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home

By Apr, 25th 2020 the US had 25% of COVID deaths in the World. However, by Jan, 27th 2021 they had 25% of COVID cases (with 4% of the population) but only 20% of the daily deaths. So, in this you are right: my deaths number was inflated. My bad.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-global-cases-idUSKBN29W0L6

Still, the same question arises: how came that... ::)

Then, starting exactly from late January 2021, the vaccine roll-out started in earnest in the USA too. Are you telling me that it is working?

Quote
People might take you seriously if you dialed back the hyperbole and actually examined the questions some of us have raised about the pandemic, the shots, and why information is being suppressed.

Which ones and which information? Exactly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 06:32:23 AM
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Deaths per 1M population:

USA #21
Italy #16

What did Italy do wrong that it had a 128163/4377188 = 2.9% CFR
compared to the US 631362/36190896 = 1.7% CFR?

Why is Italian medicine so incompetent?  What could they have done differently (like the US) to save more of their countrymen from dying from this terrible disease?

Italy was the first Western country to be hit hard by COVID. We, literally, had to improvise and learn on the fly while both people and medical personnel were dying like flies. I never hid what the situation in Northern Italy was in the darkest days of the pandemic.

Why do I think since back then that people like Spinachat are idiots?

Then we were able to live and learn, and started to put in places measures decried in other countries (looking out, one of the most amazing sights of this pandemic is how no one learned from us). The result?

Total cases/1m pop:

USA: 108,973 #17
FRA: 95,273 #27
UK: 87,624 #32
ITA: 72,513 #53

So, it would seem that we learned how to contain the COVID, while countries hit after us meet... unforeseen difficulties. Of course, nothing will ever delete the terrible death toll we had in Mar-Apr 2020. But we learned.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 06:41:43 AM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 06:53:10 AM
Epidemiological evidence suggests...

Otherwise known as bullshit, because that's what epidemiology is. Shit mathematics masquerading as "public health expertise".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 06, 2021, 06:58:40 AM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?

Quote
We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.
No, that just you in your bubble. There are real and severe side effects to the vaccines, and they're widely reported and documented on all credible medical websites. And running human experiments on 2.5 billion people doesn't miraculously cause time dilation. We don't know the long term side effects because it hasn't been long enough.

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects

History tells us that severe side effects are extremely rare, and if they do occur, they usually happen within the first two months.

COVID-19 vaccine technologies have been studied for years and used in other treatments without issue.

https://www.uab.edu/reporter/resources/be-healthy/item/9544-what-are-the-long-term-side-effects-of-covid-vaccines-3-things-to-know

In his nearly 30 years studying vaccines, UAB’s Paul Goepfert, M.D., director of the Alabama Vaccine Research Clinic, has never seen anything as effective as the three COVID-19 vaccines — from Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson — available in the United States. “A 90% decrease in risk of infections and 94% effectiveness against hospitalization for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is fantastic,” he said.

But what makes vaccine experts such as Goepfert confident that COVID vaccines are safe in the long-term? We all have seen billboards and TV infomercials from law firms seeking people harmed by diet drugs or acid-reflux medicines for class-action lawsuits. What makes Goepfert think that scientists won’t discover previously unsuspected problems caused by COVID vaccines in the years ahead?

There are several reasons.

Vaccines are eliminated quickly

Vaccine side effects show up within weeks if at all

Our COVID vaccine experience during the past six months

Vaccines, given in one- or two-shot doses, are very different from medicines that people take every day, potentially for years, Goepfert says. And decades of vaccine history — plus data from more than a billion people who have received COVID vaccines since December 2020 — both provide powerful proof that there is little chance that any new dangers will emerge from COVID vaccines.


Talk is cheap. When the rubber hits the road, the government does not have confidence in the vaccine's safety.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

Funny how they have insulated themselves from responsibility while obscuring the data.

Quote
Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. We will reevaluate the agency’s position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward.

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs

But hey, I hear you can get free fries if you take the jab.

https://www.shakeshack.com/2021/05/19/get-vaxed-get-shack/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 08:22:57 AM
Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)


Seriously, what do you think that the US did wrong? Because in the US we had lockdowns for months, we had universal masking mandates for months.

You seem to be angry about your father dying. That's understandable and a legitimate tragedy.

This will be long.

No, I'm not angry that my father died. He was old and had a very good life. I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it. It was too late for my father but that's life.

And, true, everybody dies, but this is not a reason to chase death. I often hear "These people died with COVID but they had another disease. Seldom I hear: "But, maybe, without COVID they would be still with us."

I'm not angry towards the US. Looking from outside I think that they incredibly messed up the answer to the pandemic, thinking that a virus can be fought with slogans like "Masks = Tyranny!" and the endemic "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!"

AGAIN

...Because during the Spanish Flu pandemic the US reacted exactly the same way, causing untold unnecessary deaths.

Let's take the TARDIS and go back for a few minutes to 1918. So, how were the US reacting to a deadly pandemic?

Almost no one listened to science. Masks, surprise!, were "against freedom". Doctors pleaded the various political organs to stop "War Parades" amid a pandemic. They were labeled as "against the morale" (the then sobriquet for "unpatriotic").

The result were events like the unfamous "Liberty Loan Parade" that was held in Philadelphia on Sept, 28th 1918 - when the pandemic was already so raging that the Army had cancelled the next draft call. Medical authorities of any kind implored for the parade to be cancelled. "No, because it was politically 'against the morale'". Some implored the newspaper editors to publish warnings or, at least, basic suggestions about how to protect yourself if you attended the parade. No one published anything.

Two days after the parade people literally started falling ill in the street. The result was one of the biggest superspreader events in history. Hospitals in the city were so crowded that they began refusing new patients. Sick people queued anyway outside the doors. They died on the sidewalk.

Colonel Charles Hagadorn, commander of Camp Grant, had ignored the medical guidelines for the Army (why??) and packed his barracks with young men. On Oct, 8th he read the latest flu casualty bulletin and committed suicide.

The Director of the Philadelphia Department of Public Health and Charities, Dr. Wilmer Krusen, a political appointee who hadn't acted against the parade ("There is no danger" were his exact words), assured that "There is no need to get frightened or panic stricken over exaggerated reports." (Sounds familiar?) The day after the daily death toll doubled.

And this was happening while normal illnesses, accidents and people injured in criminal acts still happened. Doctors and nurses were ran to the ground.

And then doctors and nurses started to become ill too. And to die. At the Philadelphia General Hospital, eight doctors and fifty-four nurses became sick in the span of a few hours. Ten nurses died. Fear and panic started to pervade the health-workers too.

When looking at the dead, cyanosis in some of them was so intense that some scientists actually suspected that this was not a Flu but a resurgence of the Black Death.

Did all the above stopped other "Liberty Loan Parades"? Or, when the (infected) Army returned home, "Victory Parades"?

No, of course not.

If you want to fact check, you can find everything here, with a bit of effort:

https://www.influenzaarchive.org/

WOOOOOOOSH! Back to modern times. This was then. Today the US learned, didn't they?

Well...

No. I'm not angry at the US. For sure their imprudence helped the creation of variants but, AFAIK, not the dangerous ones (it was still imprudence) I'm angry when someone from the US thinks that he can still "lecture" the World using the very same arguments that enhanced the mortality rate of a pandemic 100 years ago. (Does anyone studies, at least, his own history?) I'm angry when someone from the US denies everything: Science? It is imperfect, not credible and if you speak for it you somehow are turning it into a religion. The government? The less is said, the better. The media? Fake news! Personal experience? Hearsay! Common sense? Deep state and Pleiadians! - and then they lecture.

Military attitude and "rah rah" slogans cause orgasmic reactions when used against the struggle with a virus that - in case someone missed it - grounded a whole aircraft carrier. And when was the last time that a US aircraft carrier was put out of commission by an external agent? (my research shows that it was the USS Bismarck Sea, sunk by Japanese kamikaze pilots during the Battle of Iwo Jima in 1945; I don't know if there were more carriers put "out of commission" but not sunk; ironically, those kamikazes died, a virus multiplies).

Sure, COVID isn't as deadly as the Spanish flu. But today the World is more complex and fragile. A single ship that blocked the Suez Canal for a week disrupted commerce all over the World. Everyone is more and more responsible for everyone else. Not in everything, but at the very least in some crucial matters. Coming together in fighting a pandemic is only sane. And I don't see the US realising this. Not all in the US, at least.

So, yes, I get angry when I get some stupid lecture from the US and I'm worried when a country - any country, to be absolutely clear - behaves in a way I consider to be potentially dangerous for everybody. Sorry, but this is the way I see it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 08:28:38 AM
Epidemiological evidence suggests...

Otherwise known as bullshit, because that's what epidemiology is. Shit mathematics masquerading as "public health expertise".

Cite? Facts, please, with links. Either that, or a way to reach the Loa you consulted.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 08:31:21 AM
It was never sold as a 100% cure. They accurately reported the percentage effectiveness against each strain as it arose and none of those were 100%.

Not even 1% efficacy. Utterly pointless and probably making infections worse if Israel's latest data is anything to go by. What a strange coincidence that all the places with the highest level of vaccination also have the highest levels of infection.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

Fuck off, not a chance.

Somehow this "deadly" virus has failed to kill me, or leave any lasting impacts, twice. Might I not even notice it the next time?
Have you considered that you might have insidious lingering brain damage from your Covid experience? You really should consider it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 08:34:14 AM
Epidemiological evidence suggests...

Otherwise known as bullshit, because that's what epidemiology is. Shit mathematics masquerading as "public health expertise".
Then tell us what method you use to crunch the data.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 08:45:05 AM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?
Yes, that's how viruses work. Especially zoonotic viruses that have recently jumped to human hosts. Viruses that kill their host stop replicating, so they have an evolutionary incentive to become more infectious, but less deadly.

Which perfectly describes the Delta variant, despite your uninformed claim otherwise.

You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.
At least do the most basic research:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

You disagree with these abstracts? Give me alternatives. Don't babble about "serious medical sites", give me the links. Only a request: please, avoid Breitbart news.
I've never read Breitbart news. But if you can't even defend your favorite news site, it's probably not very good, is it?

Quote
And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?
Covid-19.
19.
2019.
We're in the 8th month of 2021.
If tigers took 2 years to complete a jump, they'd starve in mid air.

COVID cases in the World as of today: 201,817,159
COVID deaths: 4,283,757

COVID cases in the US as of today: 36,301,744
COVID deaths in the US: 631,879

Daily cases as of today: 705,067

I don't see this tiger starving.
You can't even follow a basic metaphor, can you?

We're more than 20 months into the pandemic, and you're still acting like it's this sudden emergency and we need to act without thought and ignore all possible long term consequences.

Quote
Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Your inability to follow a simple chain of logic once more leads to irrational gibberish. (Chinese elections, really?)

This isn't a hard concept. Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, and Murphy killed tens of thousand of elderly, because they forced patients with covid-19 into nursing homes. Instead of protecting the most vulnerable, they killed them. This is one the biggest reasons why the death rates in those states are among the worst in the nation. And since all 5 of those states are among the top 11 states in terms of population, their actions have had a disproportionate effect on the death rate for the nation as a whole.

DeSantis did not do this.

The more general point I made is that one of the largest factors contributing to different death rates in otherwise similar nations is how well they cared for their elderly in congregate care. In nations where covid-19 cases in this group were kept low, the death rate tended to be low. In those nations where covid-19 cases spread like wildfire in this group, the death rate was much higher. Along with obesity and the youthfulness of the population, it's one of the biggest reasons why death rates varied so much between different countries.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 08:47:01 AM
Have you considered that you might have insidious lingering brain damage from your Covid experience? You really should consider it.

Have you considered the possibility you're a cowardly, brainwashed moron?

I didn't have a "covid experience", I had the sniffles, like the overwhelming majority who have been infected with this inconsequential virus.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 08:53:07 AM
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it. The only things that seem to have worked in containing the disease are border controls in island nations and banning mass indoor gatherings. Otherwise, covid-19 spreads how it wants to spread.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 08:55:05 AM
Have you considered that you might have insidious lingering brain damage from your Covid experience? You really should consider it.

Have you considered the possibility you're a cowardly, brainwashed moron?

I didn't have a "covid experience", I had the sniffles, like the overwhelming majority who have been infected with this inconsequential virus.
I'm cowardly? Bring it on big guy... Watcha gonna do?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 08:57:34 AM
Talk is cheap. When the rubber hits the road, the government does not have confidence in the vaccine's safety.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

Funny how they have insulated themselves from responsibility

Are you even aware that this is incredibly normal and why?

I'll leave the effort to find the answer to you for a while. Meanwhile, here is a clue from the very link you posted:

"unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company."

Quote
while obscuring the data.

Which data? And why are so sure that this is happening? Links, please.

Because, as a policeman friend of mine uses to say, "It is easy to point to an empty space and say: "The data that proves I'm right was there! So, I'm right!"
Quote
Quote
Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. We will reevaluate the agency’s position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward.

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs

Amazing. The very first line in this link says:

Given the evolving nature of the pandemic, OSHA is in the process of reviewing and updating this document. These materials may no longer represent current OSHA recommendations and guidance.For the most up-to-date information, consult Protecting Workers Guidance.

Since I see that you got an "Evil Hat" attitude, I'll dig further for you.

Here is the link we are provided. You have to look here now:

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/safework

Point 9. While it confirms what you posted, here is the last line.

Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

And we are even openly given the link: https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

You are not forced to stay silent at all. You want to report? You have our blessing.

And you get fries. I didn't.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 08:58:36 AM
I'm cowardly? Bring it on big guy... Watcha gonna do?

Call you out for the pathetic melt that you are.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 09:02:35 AM
I'm cowardly? Bring it on big guy... Watcha gonna do?

Call you out for the pathetic melt that you are.
And then...?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 09:05:58 AM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?
Once again, you're spreading bad information.

Haskell County is no longer considered a serious candidate for the origin of the 1918 flu, because there were cases in NYC at the same time. A North American origin remains possible, but it's not conclusive. There was also an outbreak at a British military camp in France in 1916, which may have been the start of the pandemic. Or it may have originated among laborers in Northern China in 1917.

There are problems with all of these theories. Where the 1918 flu originated is still unknown.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 09:36:56 AM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?
Yes, that's how viruses work. Especially zoonotic viruses that have recently jumped to human hosts. Viruses that kill their host stop replicating, so they have an evolutionary incentive to become more infectious, but less deadly.

Which perfectly describes the Delta variant, despite your uninformed claim otherwise.

At which point you missed:

While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one.

...right in the post you answered?

You didn't like the expression "losing power", I gave another definition. It is still not the case with this one.
Quote
You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.
At least do the most basic research:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

I actually was about to post a link to the CDC. This one:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html

What You Need to Know

COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.

Millions of people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines under the most intense safety monitoring in U.S. history.

CDC recommends you get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as possible.

If you are fully vaccinated, you can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic. Learn more about what you can do when you have been fully vaccinated.


And then unsurprisingly they have a page about adverse reactions. One day I'll tell you what happened to me during a period of stress and insomnia, and my doctor prescribed me "some bland drops that will help you to sleep; we prescribe them to children, really!" One night to remember. S*it happens.

Yet, you can find what the CDC's recommendation is front and center on the first page.

...But you know how the CDC is these days: Holy Word when they agree with you, proof that science is trash when they change a measure against COVID. ::)
Quote
You disagree with these abstracts? Give me alternatives. Don't babble about "serious medical sites", give me the links. Only a request: please, avoid Breitbart news.
I've never read Breitbart news. But if you can't even defend your favorite news site, it's probably not very good, is it?

"My favourite news site" being?

Quote
You can't even follow a basic metaphor, can you?

We're more than 20 months into the pandemic, and you're still acting like it's this sudden emergency and we need to act without thought and ignore all possible long term consequences.

It is always interesting to read about "long term consequences" and "the Delta variant" in the same post, without the poster even trying to connect the two...

Quote
Quote
Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Your inability to follow a simple chain of logic once more leads to irrational gibberish. (Chinese elections, really?)

Not Chinese elections (comma) really.

Quote
This isn't a hard concept. Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, and Murphy killed tens of thousand of elderly, because they forced patients with covid-19 into nursing homes. Instead of protecting the most vulnerable, they killed them. This is one the biggest reasons why the death rates in those states are among the worst in the nation. And since all 5 of those states are among the top 11 states in terms of population, their actions have had a disproportionate effect on the death rate for the nation as a whole.

...And this makes them, somehow, "non Americans"? Not part of "how America messed up the answer to the pandemic"? Because that was my point.

Quote
DeSantis did not do this.

Admittedly, no. DeSantis, as often repeated, pulled a different stunt - both last year and this year:

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2021/07/23/floridas-covid-19-surge-continues-adds-73199-cases-in-week/

Florida is seeing a surge in cases, hospitalizations and deaths as it grapples with the highly transmissible delta variant of the novel coronavirus and lagging vaccination rates. Hospital officials across the state say beds are filling up with COVID-19 patients. (but what "Hospital officials" know, right?)

Dr. David Rubin, director of PolicyLab at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, told our sister station, WKMG-TV, that Florida is the epicenter of transmissions.

“It’s very, very clear right now that what’s responsible for what’s going on are a large number of unvaccinated individuals and a large disease reservoir now and when this virus has an opportunity to propagate it will,” Rubin said.


Still, despite the recent surge, DeSantis said the state will not return to government mandates — in May, he barred municipalities from imposing their own and banned businesses from requiring proof of vaccination. He said it is up to individuals on how they deal with the pandemic.

Quote
The more general point I made is that one of the largest factors contributing to different death rates in otherwise similar nations is how well they cared for their elderly in congregate care. In nations where covid-19 cases in this group were kept low, the death rate tended to be low. In those nations where covid-19 cases spread like wildfire in this group, the death rate was much higher. Along with obesity and the youthfulness of the population, it's one of the biggest reasons why death rates varied so much between different countries.

You know? I would really like to live in a World where things are so easy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 09:47:11 AM
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it.

Except that here they did. As I posted earlier, no one can cancel the death toll of the first wave in Italy  - but that death toll (along with the initial wave of cases) is exactly the yardstick that shows how, after the Italian government went against the virus with everything they had, the transmission index collapsed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 09:53:01 AM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?
Yes, that's how viruses work. Especially zoonotic viruses that have recently jumped to human hosts. Viruses that kill their host stop replicating, so they have an evolutionary incentive to become more infectious, but less deadly.

Which perfectly describes the Delta variant, despite your uninformed claim otherwise.

At which point you missed:

While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one.

...right in the post you answered?

You didn't like the expression "losing power", I gave another definition. It is still not the case with this one.
Is your reading comprehension this bad?

I just said that the Delta variant is more transmissible, but less deadly. As predicted. As is usually the case. You're claimed otherwise, and I was pointing out you're wrong.

So of course I saw your false claim, because I explicitly refuted it.

Quote
You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.
At least do the most basic research:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

I actually was about to post a link to the CDC.
Glad you admit you were wrong.

Quote
Quote
Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Your inability to follow a simple chain of logic once more leads to irrational gibberish. (Chinese elections, really?)

Not Chinese elections (comma) really.

Quote
This isn't a hard concept. Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, and Murphy killed tens of thousand of elderly, because they forced patients with covid-19 into nursing homes. Instead of protecting the most vulnerable, they killed them. This is one the biggest reasons why the death rates in those states are among the worst in the nation. And since all 5 of those states are among the top 11 states in terms of population, their actions have had a disproportionate effect on the death rate for the nation as a whole.

...And this makes them, somehow, "non Americans"? Not part of "how America messed up the answer to the pandemic"? Because that was my point.
No, you asked why the death rate varies from country to country. I explained why. I never said anything about their not being Americans.

Are you suffering from brain damage? Because you don't seem to be replying to what I said.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 09:55:43 AM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.

Let me see if I understood this right... This guy was living his life before getting COVID and died after getting COVID?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 09:55:48 AM
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it.

Except that here they did. As I posted earlier, no one can cancel the death toll of the first wave in Italy  - but that death toll (along with the initial wave of cases) is exactly the yardstick that shows how, after the Italian government went against the virus with everything they had, the transmission index collapsed.
If everyone who could be infected was infected, the number of cases drops. The Italian government can't take credit for their failure.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 10:00:24 AM
Watch how the data is being cooked.. Consider that the dramatically higher rate of infection means that even with a lower percentage of deaths, Delta can still result in an overall increase in deaths. Right now, it is certainly contributing to a greater demand for hospitalizations, mostly among the non-vaccinated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 06, 2021, 10:01:34 AM

Quote
Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. We will reevaluate the agency’s position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward.

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs


Amazing. The very first line in this link says:

Given the evolving nature of the pandemic, OSHA is in the process of reviewing and updating this document. These materials may no longer represent current OSHA recommendations and guidance.For the most up-to-date information, consult Protecting Workers Guidance.

Since I see that you got an "Evil Hat" attitude, I'll dig further for you.

Here is the link we are provided. You have to look here now:

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/safework

Point 9. While it confirms what you posted, here is the last line.

Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

And we are even openly given the link: https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

You are not forced to stay silent at all. You want to report? You have our blessing.

And you get fries. I didn't.

The actual line is...
Quote
Note on recording adverse reactions to vaccines: DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not want to give any suggestion of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination or to disincentivize employers' vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904's recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. OSHA will reevaluate the agency's position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward. Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

Since I am guessing you do not know much about employment in the US and OSHA, You probably do not know about the 'general duty clause' for OSHA.  All employers are legally required to take all possible steps to create a safe work environment.  Under OSHA, they are required to be proactive, including documenting any and all safety hazards associated with such.  Under regular OSHA rules the employer is always in violation for failing to record any possible safety issues.  That is why there is an emphasized 'note' under that heading...OSHA is specifically telling companies that they will not be held to the general duty clause (The basis for all OSHA mandates) at this time, in this one particular instance...

In other words, OSHA has told companies that their core safety requirement is not going to be applied for the jab side effects...

Now why would they want the company to ignore their basic recording requirement in this case?...They still require it for businesses that mandate flu and other vaccines...

HR departments that mandate other vaccines already have all the paperwork and knowledge to fill it out.  The ones that don't are used to dealing with new regulations on a regular basis.  So this would be an almost perfect opportunity to build a real database of possible side effects and adverse reactions from the US worker population...yet OSHA explicitly removed it.

Unless you believe an actual US government bureaucracy is actively trying to reduce the amount of paperwork it requires (but only in this one critically important instance...you know...'the worst pandemic evuh').
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 10:03:14 AM
Watch how the data is being cooked.. Consider that the dramatically higher rate of infection means that even with a lower percentage of deaths, Delta can still result in an overall increase in deaths. Right now, it is certainly contributing to a greater demand for hospitalizations, mostly among the non-vaccinated.
That's valid, but in most areas it seems to be resulting in a more cases, but fewer deaths.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 10:27:24 AM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?
Once again

Where else?

Quote
, you're spreading bad information.

I gave you a source. I would have asked for yours, but don't worry, I did for you the work you didn't.

True, there are theories that the Spanish Flu may have originated somewhere else. Wikipedia say so, so it must be true. John M. Barry himself designates Haskell County as "the end of the line" in terms of research - i.e. you can trace the pandemic to there and no further. This doesn't mean that Haskell was hit by an unknown carriers from elsewhere. However...
Quote
Haskell County is no longer considered a serious candidate for the origin of the 1918 flu

This is misinformation. Haskell County is still considered the origin off the Spanish Flu pandemic until proven otherwise. A chain of factual, demonstrable events leads there, and there the line stops. The rest are theories, and theories are not "proof".

Even if we "accept" them, the question would become: "Which one?" Virii do not appear all over the place, unless it is a bioterrorist attack. They have a precise source (and we should still be able to trace that source to Haskell County). Maybe one day a different point of origin for the Spanish Flu will be determined. Maybe this pandemic will further the studies on that one too. Until then, this is what we know.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2021, 10:40:25 AM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.

Let me see if I understood this right... This guy was living his life before getting COVID and died after getting COVID?
And you accused Pat of living in a simplistic world?

There is the possibility that he was living his life with no health issues, he got Covid, the effects of Covid caused strain on his body's systems and he died of the results of having Covid.

There is the possibility that he was living his life with chronic or acute health issues, he went to the hospital and was tested for Covid (the news reports state he was not admitted for Covid and was only tested after he went to the hospital), and he died of whatever chronic or acute health issues he had, while carrying Covid in his system.

Provide your evidence for either.  You don't know (in fact, none except his family does).  But you are certainly quick to jump to one.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 10:49:44 AM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?
Once again

Where else?
I literally explained three other possible origin sites in the rest of my post. You chose to cut out everything except the first two words and play dumb, because you're dishonest.

Crosby's theory that it started in Haskell was disproven by Worobey, Cox, and Gill:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6381288/

A disproven theory is not the default.

This is misinformation. Haskell County is still considered the origin off the Spanish Flu pandemic until proven otherwise. A chain of factual, demonstrable events leads there, and there the line stops. The rest are theories, and theories are not "proof".
<face palm gif>

That's not what "theory" means.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2021, 10:55:24 AM
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it.

Except that here they did. As I posted earlier, no one can cancel the death toll of the first wave in Italy  - but that death toll (along with the initial wave of cases) is exactly the yardstick that shows how, after the Italian government went against the virus with everything they had, the transmission index collapsed.
If everyone who could be infected was infected, the number of cases drops. The Italian government can't take credit for their failure.
You're wasting your breath.  Remember, this poster has high standards for sources, until he posts links to a local Jacksonville TV station to bash DeSantis (and we know TV news has no reason to bash DeSantis, now that he is becoming a political frontrunner).  Remember, the US botched Covid, but Italy had a higher CFR.  Remember, the US didn't know how to stop the virus (because you can't) and that's bad, but Italy didn't know either, and that's OK.  Seeing a pattern?

I'd almost suspect paid disinformation, since Reckall does the normal "throw as many points as possible in one post so that hopefully some slip through the cracks" that is common to that.  But, the whole Italian nationalism thing would be really weird for a paid disruptor (and who'd do that here, of all places, anyway?), so he's probably just well versed in the tactics (like, when you provided a solid explanation for most US deaths, re. nursing homes, he just calls it "simplistic", since he can't contradict it).  So, it's your breath to waste, but I don't get the feeling you are going to even get a fair hearing...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Trond on August 06, 2021, 11:09:00 AM
I think this whole notion on the left, that they should demand everyone get a vaccine, just imploded:

Someone on the left just came up with the idea that demanding vaccines is racist. (see Ben Shapiro videos)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 11:15:33 AM
Since I am guessing you do not know much about employment in the US and OSHA, You probably do not know about the 'general duty clause' for OSHA.

First of all, I'm glad to get an answer based on a quote I had to pull out - if you get my meaning :D

True, I have no experience with employment in the USA. I can only look from afar.

From my vantage point, however, I see that OSHA and, I guess, a lot of other entities in the US, have to deal with a bizarre situation.

When it was the last time that someone protested against the mandatory used of helmets in specific work environments? Or of special facial protections? Or against regular maintenance and inspections? Or against specific rules that "limit your liberty" when it becomes an hazard? (I'm talking about "No Smoking near the Gas Pump", not about "In This Area Allow to Aliens to Kidnap You.")

Exactly.

From here we have the obvious, sane, next step.

All employers are legally required to take all possible steps to create a safe work environment.  Under OSHA, they are required to be proactive, including documenting any and all safety hazards associated with such.

However, just mention "masks" during a pandemic and things become incendiary. Vaccines are, literally, how "they" (who is seldom specified) will control you.

...And all of sudden OSHA has to deal with norms still related with work safety, but that, in this specific case, may cause a strong pushback. The needs are the same, but the rules all of sudden are different.

So, what do you do?

IMHO (this is my opinion and nothing else, I want for this to be clear) OSHA is trying to avoid potentially incendiary norms and even language while, still, actually, getting the same result. True...

OSHA is specifically telling companies that they will not be held to the general duty clause (The basis for all OSHA mandates) at this time, in this one particular instance...

...But you have the words right there. Helmets are fine, vaccines are special. OSHA however gives you both freedom to choose (and you know how the US are: FREEEEEEEDOM!!!! ::) ) and the link where you can report side effects of your vaccine. Your choice!

Now, tell me, how many suffering from side effects will not report them?

Is this perfect? I don't know. You know US bureaucracy better than me, so you will have a better answer. What I see is a way to preserve the need to know about vaccines' side effects while avoiding unneeded confrontations.
Quote
Unless you believe an actual US government bureaucracy is actively trying to reduce the amount of paperwork it requires (but only in this one critically important instance...you know...'the worst pandemic evuh').

This is not, of course, "the worst pandemic evuh". What I think, however, is that this is the first pandemic in history to hit a World convinced that "These things don't happen anymore!!!1 It is all a ploy of the #DeepState allied with #BillGates!!!"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 11:20:50 AM
You're wasting your breath.  Remember, this poster has high standards for sources, until he posts links to a local Jacksonville TV station to bash DeSantis (and we know TV news has no reason to bash DeSantis, now that he is becoming a political frontrunner).  Remember, the US botched Covid, but Italy had a higher CFR.  Remember, the US didn't know how to stop the virus (because you can't) and that's bad, but Italy didn't know either, and that's OK.  Seeing a pattern?

Yup. That pontificating without posting links is easier. :D

Quote
I'd almost suspect paid disinformation, since Reckall does the normal "throw as many points as possible in one post so that hopefully some slip through the cracks" that is common to that.  But, the whole Italian nationalism thing would be really weird for a paid disruptor (and who'd do that here, of all places, anyway?), so he's probably just well versed in the tactics (like, when you provided a solid explanation for most US deaths, re. nursing homes, he just calls it "simplistic", since he can't contradict it).  So, it's your breath to waste, but I don't get the feeling you are going to even get a fair hearing...

Amazing: not a single thing you wrote is true. Why? Because I say so.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2021, 11:35:18 AM

Quote
Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. We will reevaluate the agency’s position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward.

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs


Amazing. The very first line in this link says:

Given the evolving nature of the pandemic, OSHA is in the process of reviewing and updating this document. These materials may no longer represent current OSHA recommendations and guidance.For the most up-to-date information, consult Protecting Workers Guidance.

Since I see that you got an "Evil Hat" attitude, I'll dig further for you.

Here is the link we are provided. You have to look here now:

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/safework

Point 9. While it confirms what you posted, here is the last line.

Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

And we are even openly given the link: https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

You are not forced to stay silent at all. You want to report? You have our blessing.

And you get fries. I didn't.

The actual line is...
Quote
Note on recording adverse reactions to vaccines: DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not want to give any suggestion of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination or to disincentivize employers' vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904's recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. OSHA will reevaluate the agency's position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward. Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

Since I am guessing you do not know much about employment in the US and OSHA, You probably do not know about the 'general duty clause' for OSHA.  All employers are legally required to take all possible steps to create a safe work environment.  Under OSHA, they are required to be proactive, including documenting any and all safety hazards associated with such.  Under regular OSHA rules the employer is always in violation for failing to record any possible safety issues.  That is why there is an emphasized 'note' under that heading...OSHA is specifically telling companies that they will not be held to the general duty clause (The basis for all OSHA mandates) at this time, in this one particular instance...

In other words, OSHA has told companies that their core safety requirement is not going to be applied for the jab side effects...

Now why would they want the company to ignore their basic recording requirement in this case?...They still require it for businesses that mandate flu and other vaccines...

HR departments that mandate other vaccines already have all the paperwork and knowledge to fill it out.  The ones that don't are used to dealing with new regulations on a regular basis.  So this would be an almost perfect opportunity to build a real database of possible side effects and adverse reactions from the US worker population...yet OSHA explicitly removed it.

Unless you believe an actual US government bureaucracy is actively trying to reduce the amount of paperwork it requires (but only in this one critically important instance...you know...'the worst pandemic evuh').

I might have a possible explanation:

IF companies do the recording as normal it's on paper from entities that have no incentive in lying about.

BUT if they don't, then any and all claims by individuals can be dismissed and it makes it harder to connect the dots.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 12:16:22 PM

I literally explained three other possible origin sites in the rest of my post. You chose to cut out everything except the first two words and play dumb, because you're dishonest.

Actually I didn't. But lets run with this ball for a while:

Quote
Crosby's theory that it started in Haskell was disproven by Worobey, Cox, and Gill:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6381288/

Finally, a link! Hooray. A link with a flaw right when it tackles Barry's conclusion for the first time:

"The significance of the incident, in Barry’s view, lies in its timing and location. These deaths in rural Kansas took place in an area only a few hundred miles from a US Army Camp where, a few weeks later, Barry reports, one of the first recorded outbreaks of the pandemic may be said to have occurred."

Barry doesn't say that. I happen to have his study right here. Let's see what he actually says:

"In the last week of February 1918, Dean Nilson, Ernest Elliot, John Bottom, and probably several others unnamed by the local paper traveled from Haskell, where “severe influenza” was raging, to Funston. They probably arrived between February 28 and March 2, and the camp hospital first began receiving soldiers with influenza on March 4. This timing precisely fits the incubation period of influenza."

Barry doesn't traces the spread of the virus "because it happened in a general area". He points out the arrival of at least three men, named, from Haskell to Funston, and how the timing of the first cases in Funston coincides with "the incubation period of influenza".

"Within three weeks eleven hundred troops at Funston were sick enough to require hospitalization. Only a trickle of people moved back and forth between Haskell and Funston, but a river of soldiers moved between Funston, other army bases, and France. Two weeks after the first case at Funston, on March 18, influenza surfaced at both Camps Forrest and Greenleaf in Georgia; 10 percent of the forces at both camps would report sick."

So, Barry traces the movement of people from an infected county to an Army base, how that Army base became infected with clockwork precision, and does furter tracing between that base and others places that, later, reported cases.

How far we are from the idea of "an area only a few hundred miles from a US Army Camp" and nothing else pimped in that study, hm?

Anyway, it was a long study, and it looks interesting, so I'll read it (I wonder how many else did the same).

Quote
That's not what "theory" means.

I'm listening.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 12:27:48 PM
Oh dear, the "vaccines" don't actually do a thing for the Delta variant: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-delta-infections-produce-similar-levels-of-virus-regardless-of-vaccination-status-suggests-early-analysis-12374244

Sly Views, but the fact that it's even being reported in the scum media says something. Almost as though the "vaccines" don't fucking work...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 12:55:17 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.

Let me see if I understood this right... This guy was living his life before getting COVID and died after getting COVID?
And you accused Pat of living in a simplistic world?

There is the possibility that he was living his life with no health issues, he got Covid, the effects of Covid caused strain on his body's systems and he died of the results of having Covid.

There is the possibility that he was living his life with chronic or acute health issues, he went to the hospital and was tested for Covid (the news reports state he was not admitted for Covid and was only tested after he went to the hospital), and he died of whatever chronic or acute health issues he had, while carrying Covid in his system.

Provide your evidence for either.  You don't know (in fact, none except his family does).  But you are certainly quick to jump to one.

I hope you are aware that COVID is a potential danger to your system no matter what.

I don't know this guy. I'm still sorry that he died, because I would never wish that to anyone. But if he had "chronic or acute health issues" he should have been extra-careful: adding COVID to them is not something I would want. The reason should be obvious.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 01:02:01 PM
Quote
That's not what "theory" means.

I'm listening.
A theory is just a hypothesis. The ideal is it should be testable, but that's not always the case in practice (cf. string theory). They're distinguished from axioms, which are things that have to be assumed to be true, because they can't be proven.

The word theory doesn't imply anything about its validity. It covers all the wild hairbrained ideas, as well as widely accepted theories, like the theory of gravity. But regardless of how widely accepted it is, all theories are still subject to challenges, revisions, and even being overthrown. We saw this with gravity. Newton's formulation was amazingly accurate, but Einstein showed it was just a special case and provided a more general set of rules. And currently the problems with a quantum theory of gravity show there's still a big hole in the current understanding.

All the different proposals about the origin of the 1918 flu are theories. Calling some of them just theories and others something else isn't a valid distinction. They're all theories. It's the strength of the evidence in support of each of the different theories that matters. And as I've said several times, none of the theories are conclusive. We don't really know where the 1918 flu originated. Likely we'll never know, because sufficient information was not preserved.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 01:32:35 PM
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it.

Except that here they did. As I posted earlier, no one can cancel the death toll of the first wave in Italy  - but that death toll (along with the initial wave of cases) is exactly the yardstick that shows how, after the Italian government went against the virus with everything they had, the transmission index collapsed.
If everyone who could be infected was infected, the number of cases drops. The Italian government can't take credit for their failure.
You're wasting your breath.  Remember, this poster has high standards for sources, until he posts links to a local Jacksonville TV station to bash DeSantis (and we know TV news has no reason to bash DeSantis, now that he is becoming a political frontrunner).

I almost forgot about this one, because it's a small gem amid the general flapping.

I posted a source about DeSantis. I choose the one that gave the most info in the most synthetic manner, because this thread is already made by walls of text (who no one reads anyway before answering).

Do you want others? Because I have a ton.

But, even before that, do you have better sources that disprove what I posted? I'm listening. Hint "Shooting the messenger" is a fail. Now, please, you have the microphone. I'll sit right there.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 01:46:15 PM
Oh dear, the "vaccines" don't actually do a thing for the Delta variant: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-delta-infections-produce-similar-levels-of-virus-regardless-of-vaccination-status-suggests-early-analysis-12374244

Sly Views, but the fact that it's even being reported in the scum media says something. Almost as though the "vaccines" don't fucking work...
Did you read your own source, dumbass? Go past the headline and it outright says that the vaccinations are effective.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 02:12:51 PM
Did you read your own source, dumbass? Go past the headline and it outright says that the vaccinations are effective.

I did, and it's the usual circular bullshit about how "this shows it's really working" and trying to brazen out the fact that they actually do nothing.

Assertions from scum like Sky News are meaningless.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 02:15:26 PM
Did you read your own source, dumbass? Go past the headline and it outright says that the vaccinations are effective.

I did, and it's the usual circular bullshit about how "this shows it's really working" and trying to brazen out the fact that they actually do nothing.

Assertions from scum like Sky News are meaningless.
So you post sources that are bullshit. Got it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 06, 2021, 03:06:09 PM
Did you read your own source, dumbass? Go past the headline and it outright says that the vaccinations are effective.

I did, and it's the usual circular bullshit about how "this shows it's really working" and trying to brazen out the fact that they actually do nothing.

Assertions from scum like Sky News are meaningless.

We might get to a point where you would almost pass for being right. The frequent mutations might eventually hinder the vaccine less effective and Moderna is already talking about a third booster by winter. But just to make it clear, your theories are always so far off it’s hard to think you ain’t trolling.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 06, 2021, 03:11:54 PM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

Nor is the COVID for what matters. Are you even aware of how an influenza virus works?


Given that I was a science major I know how the "scientific method" is supposed to work, better than most. The problem in society today is that "science" has become an insanely arrogant religion.

I first saw the commercial with former Presidents saying how safe and effective the vaccines were- a few months ago. During an episode of "American Greed" about a Pfizer pain killer that killed people and made their flesh fall off, which was covered up for as long as possible. One of the vaccines is from Pfizer. Great timing, aye?

So- how did they know it was "safe" and "effective?" They had only just recently appeared. Where were the long-term studies? The control groups? The taking of population density, poverty, demographics, age, etc. into account? ANY evidence that would not get you flunked out of first semester biology?

Did you know it is "effective?" All right, define "effective." They know people will assume that means what it used to with the polio and measles vaccines long ago: get it and you are protected. But now it means "treats lesser symptoms."

Given the standards for FDA approval, anyone with any sense had better worry if something does not have it.

I understand this better than you, clearly. AND- if a vaccine creates a false sense of security people will get careless, thus actually making the problem worse!

Fun Fact: Given the way this disease is supposed to spread the WHO is wrong about three feet, the CDC wrong about six feet- to get it right a bare minimum of TWENTY FEET social distancing is needed. Apparently the CDC admitted their figure came out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 03:29:11 PM
We might get to a point where you would almost pass for being right. The frequent mutations might eventually hinder the vaccine less effective and Moderna is already talking about a third booster by winter.

It is already starting. My dentist already booked her third shot via the Dentists Association. It will be either in October or November, but it is a done thing.

All this talk of "it is possible that maybe there could be the necessity..." only means "there will be a third shot". They are only preparing the terrain.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2021, 03:44:46 PM
Quote
That's not what "theory" means.

I'm listening.
A theory is just a hypothesis. The ideal is it should be testable, but that's not always the case in practice (cf. string theory). They're distinguished from axioms, which are things that have to be assumed to be true, because they can't be proven.

The word theory doesn't imply anything about its validity. It covers all the wild hairbrained ideas, as well as widely accepted theories, like the theory of gravity. But regardless of how widely accepted it is, all theories are still subject to challenges, revisions, and even being overthrown. We saw this with gravity. Newton's formulation was amazingly accurate, but Einstein showed it was just a special case and provided a more general set of rules. And currently the problems with a quantum theory of gravity show there's still a big hole in the current understanding.

All the different proposals about the origin of the 1918 flu are theories. Calling some of them just theories and others something else isn't a valid distinction. They're all theories. It's the strength of the evidence in support of each of the different theories that matters. And as I've said several times, none of the theories are conclusive. We don't really know where the 1918 flu originated. Likely we'll never know, because sufficient information was not preserved.

Sorry Pat but no, I do agree that the "theory" about the spanish flu origin is just a hypothesis, but a Theory isn't something you can test, it's the explanation of all those tests you already did:

The Theory of Gravity, just explains why the laws work, after we know they work, and makes predictions, that IF proven wrong would send the Theory back to the drawing board.

For example Evolution and punctuated equilibrium, rapid evolution. Before it was thought evolution ALWAYS took millions of years, when it was proven this wasn't the case then rapid evolution + punctuated equilibrium were postulated and added to the Theory.

Mind you, it wasn't proven that evolution doesn't happen or that the general laws aren't true, just a small part of the Theory needed to be ammended to account for the new discoveries.

And those new discoveries didn't contradict the core laws of the Theory.

T.L;D.R : Hypothesis > Tests (if proven correct then) > Law > Theory

Or put in math terms: Theory > Law > Hypothesis
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 06, 2021, 03:46:36 PM
Since I am guessing you do not know much about employment in the US and OSHA, You probably do not know about the 'general duty clause' for OSHA.

First of all, I'm glad to get an answer based on a quote I had to pull out - if you get my meaning :D

Since you posted the link in response to someone that wasn't me I have no idea what you mean? ???
I was simply trying to clarify exactly one particular point for you...

That the Covid jabs were being treated in a manner that was contradictory to the regulations and that OSHA was specifically informing employers of that alteration of the standard regulations...

I did not bring mask mandates or 'freedom' or anything else into the conversation. 
I don't remember mentioning 'Bill Gates' or the 'Deep State' in the discussion.

What I pointed out was that the government agency in charge of health and safety in the workplace in the US did away with one of its basic standard requirements at a time when that particular requirement would be very useful for record keeping purposes.

I was attempting to do it in a polite manner since I made the assumption that you (Italian) might not be aware of some of the OSHA (US) background requirements and why this raises concerns.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2021, 03:48:56 PM
We might get to a point where you would almost pass for being right. The frequent mutations might eventually hinder the vaccine less effective and Moderna is already talking about a third booster by winter.

It is already starting. My dentist already booked her third shot via the Dentists Association. It will be either in October or November, but it is a done thing.

All this talk of "it is possible that maybe there could be the necessity..." only means "there will be a third shot". They are only preparing the terrain.

And a 4th, 5th, 6th until they say a whole new vaccine is needed for the variant Epsilon Gama Tango and start again.

All talk about herd immunity will be squashed, all talk of conventional drugs (especially if out of patent) being used will be squashed, all your liberties will be stolen on the say so of unaccountable unelected fucks that have been proven wrong several times already or have been proven lying to cover up for China/WHO/Fauci.

Welcome to the new normal, you'll own nothing and be happy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 06, 2021, 03:58:04 PM

Welcome to the new normal, you'll own nothing and be happy.

Scary times we live in indeed. Frightening, to say the least.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 04:15:01 PM
T.L;D.R : Hypothesis > Tests (if proven correct then) > Law > Theory

Or put in math terms: Theory > Law > Hypothesis
1 > 0
0 < 1
Can't both be correct.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 04:19:07 PM
Quote
Since I am guessing you do not know much about employment in the US and OSHA, You probably do not know about the 'general duty clause' for OSHA.

First of all, I'm glad to get an answer based on a quote I had to pull out - if you get my meaning :D

Since you posted the link in response to someone that wasn't me I have no idea what you mean? ???

I think that there is a misunderstanding here. I was simply happy that finally an answer was based on a quote with a reference. I only sighed because the original reference was wrong and, even in this welcome case, it was me who actually had to do another guy's job. I was not talking about you. :)

Quote
I was simply trying to clarify exactly one particular point for you...

Yes, I understood that. And I didn't say that you mentioned masks =/= freedom or such. I said that. From my vantage point outside the USA I'm noticing that some topics, from masks to vaccines, are, for the lack of a better word, "hot", while, for examples, mandatory helmets in a building site aren't.

So, I pushed forward the idea that maybe OSHA is using that language in an unprecedented situation to avoid any kind of potentially bad confrontation - while still keeping open the door for people to report vaccines' side effects. I think I underlined enough that this hypothesis is IMHO, and that you are better informed than me to judge if it is feasible.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 06, 2021, 05:21:19 PM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?

Not sure what this has to do with the Wuhan virus?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 05:52:39 PM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?

Not sure what this has to do with the Wuhan virus?

Apart from giving to the virus the name of the place of origin?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 06:18:34 PM
So, I finally read this article:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6381288/

It makes a compelling case for this conclusion:

Although the even earlier cases noted in France and the UK are compelling, we contend that early documentation of plausible cases is highly unlikely to indicate geographic origin. In other words, even if there were early cases in France and the UK in 1916 and 1917, this still would not necessarily indicate that the pandemic virus first arose in Western Europe. To our knowledge, the only reasonably persuasive evidence we have of geographical origin, which is by no means conclusive, comes from phylogenetic analyses indicating that most of the avian-like genomic segments in the 1918 human virus appear to be of Western Hemisphere and, probably, North American origin [19] and that the pandemic virus’s HA gene was likely circulating in the human population for many years prior to 1918.

[...]

"Therefore, we should remain cautious in the face of incomplete knowledge. In a nutshell, the chance that a very precise epicentre of the pandemic was captured and publicly documented in real time by front-line observers, whether in Kansas, Etaples, China or wherever, must be close to zero."

This coincides with what Barry writes in a 2009 Appendix to his 2005 research that, admittedly, I hadn't read before:

"In fact, some investigators now speculate that the 1918 virus circulated in humans for several years before mutations allowed it to spread easily. If true, this would of course explode the hypothesis that Haskell was the origin. The 1889 pandemic virus did follow this pattern, generating two and a half years of sporadic outbreaks around the world, including in such large cities as London, Berlin, and Paris, before becoming fully pandemic, blanketing the world in the winter of 1891–92."


But Barry adds an observation strangely absent from the other study:

"Exposure to the (mild) first wave (intended as "coming from Haskell") still provided as high as 94 percent protection against the (horrifying) second wave (of Spanish Flu), far better protection than the best modern vaccine affords, and that’s just one piece of the evidence that the same virus (coming from Haskell) caused both the initial waves.

But we already saw how the more modern study, for all its in-depthness, already strangely lacks other data, like the meticulous contact tracing done by Barry, from Haskell County to Funston, and from Funston to other Army Camps. One would expect that the dismantling of the Haskell hypothesis would start there, but this part of Barry's work is not even mentioned. Make of that what you wish.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 06, 2021, 06:46:53 PM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?

Not sure what this has to do with the Wuhan virus?

Apart from giving to the virus the name of the place of origin?

If the Spanish Flu came from Kansas then it would be the Kansas Flu.  That has nothing to do with the Wuhan Chinese Flu.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 07:26:37 PM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?

Not sure what this has to do with the Wuhan virus?

Apart from giving to the virus the name of the place of origin?

If the Spanish Flu came from Kansas then it would be the Kansas Flu.  That has nothing to do with the Wuhan Chinese Flu.

So, the Spanish Flu came from Spain? Just askin'.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 07:33:00 PM
So you post sources that are bullshit. Got it.

I was showing that even the cunts in the mainstream media like Sky are admitting the vaccines don't really do anything.

We might get to a point where you would almost pass for being right. The frequent mutations might eventually hinder the vaccine less effective and Moderna is already talking about a third booster by winter. But just to make it clear, your theories are always so far off it’s hard to think you ain’t trolling.

The vaccines are causing the mutations. Don't you get it? Evolutionary pressure which causes mutation along a specific vector, ie to overcome the rather weak and selective "immunity" the jabs give.

The manufacturers are engaged in a futile and self-defeating race against the ability of the virus to mutate. Not a coincidence that a recent Israeli study found those who've been infected and recovered have a much stronger immune response and better outcomes than people who've only been jabbed. And that resistance applies to the mutated variants that are overcoming the vaccines, too.

Boosters aren't going to do fuck all, because the jabs never worked in the first place. All they did was trick the immune system into not reacting to spike proteins. The "vaccinated" are still getting infected, still carrying the same viral load as anyone unvaccinated, and are possibly more susceptible to future infection through antibody dependent enhancement. If you've been jabbed, your immune system is now fucked, good luck in the autumn.

Shame they didn't actually test these things before jabbing millions of people with them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on August 06, 2021, 08:36:52 PM
Greetings!

Here is an article discussing how more and more companies are requiring that employees get vaccinated--and provide proof of such vaccination. In addition, many people are expecting and requiring that family members or friends also get vaccinated--or become socially ostracized and not allowed to participate in normal gatherings and activities.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-unvaccinated-are-losing-jobs-and-friends/ar-AAN1aE6?ocid=spartanntp

So, as the current vaccine fails, and of course, new mutations develop, more vaccinations will be required. Again, and again, and again. Pumping yourself with experimental drugs with unknown side-effects--so that all of these cock-sucking cowards and tyrants can "feel safe". Unvaccinated people are supposed to just bow down and get pumped with this bullshit, just to suck the sheep's fucking ass. Risking their own life and condition with all kinds of crazy effects, and if such does occur, the mindless fucking cunts just gibber, "So sorry!"

Fuck these tyrants and cock-sucking cowards.

I hope that the resistance continues to grow. All of the tyrants need to be bathed in fucking napalm.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 08:39:49 PM
So you post sources that are bullshit. Got it.

I was showing that even the cunts in the mainstream media like Sky are admitting the vaccines don't really do anything.

We might get to a point where you would almost pass for being right. The frequent mutations might eventually hinder the vaccine less effective and Moderna is already talking about a third booster by winter. But just to make it clear, your theories are always so far off it’s hard to think you ain’t trolling.

The vaccines are causing the mutations. Don't you get it? Evolutionary pressure which causes mutation along a specific vector, ie to overcome the rather weak and selective "immunity" the jabs give.

The manufacturers are engaged in a futile and self-defeating race against the ability of the virus to mutate. Not a coincidence that a recent Israeli study found those who've been infected and recovered have a much stronger immune response and better outcomes than people who've only been jabbed. And that resistance applies to the mutated variants that are overcoming the vaccines, too.

Boosters aren't going to do fuck all, because the jabs never worked in the first place. All they did was trick the immune system into not reacting to spike proteins. The "vaccinated" are still getting infected, still carrying the same viral load as anyone unvaccinated, and are possibly more susceptible to future infection through antibody dependent enhancement. If you've been jabbed, your immune system is now fucked, good luck in the autumn.

Shame they didn't actually test these things before jabbing millions of people with them.
You actually believe that nonsense? Keep eating the anti-vaxxer cookies dumbass, but puking up the misinformation is wrong...and cowardly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 08:41:27 PM
Greetings!

Here is an article discussing how more and more companies are requiring that employees get vaccinated--and provide proof of such vaccination. In addition, many people are expecting and requiring that family members or friends also get vaccinated--or become socially ostracized and not allowed to participate in normal gatherings and activities.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-unvaccinated-are-losing-jobs-and-friends/ar-AAN1aE6?ocid=spartanntp

So, as the current vaccine fails, and of course, new mutations develop, more vaccinations will be required. Again, and again, and again. Pumping yourself with experimental drugs with unknown side-effects--so that all of these cock-sucking cowards and tyrants can "feel safe". Unvaccinated people are supposed to just bow down and get pumped with this bullshit, just to suck the sheep's fucking ass. Risking their own life and condition with all kinds of crazy effects, and if such does occur, the mindless fucking cunts just gibber, "So sorry!"

Fuck these tyrants and cock-sucking cowards.

I hope that the resistance continues to grow. All of the tyrants need to be bathed in fucking napalm.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Tough talk, but c'mon...What ya gonna do, bitch?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 09:01:36 PM
Biden announced today that 350 million Americans have been vaccinated, meaning more than 100% of Americans have taken the jab.
https://news.yahoo.com/joe-biden-says-350-million-171101167.html
Since there's no longer any reason for a vaccine passport, I assume they'll institute a universal health passport instead, where people get access to different services based on their health needs. For instance, the obese may be barred from McDonald's, gymrats who post annoying selfies on social media may be barred from the gym, and the elderly may qualify for "Cuomos" aka expedited euthanasia plans. All hail our glorious leader!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 06, 2021, 10:21:36 PM
Biden announced today that 350 million Americans have been vaccinated, meaning more than 100% of Americans have taken the jab.
https://news.yahoo.com/joe-biden-says-350-million-171101167.html
Since there's no longer any reason for a vaccine passport, I assume they'll institute a universal health passport instead, where people get access to different services based on their health needs. For instance, the obese may be barred from McDonald's, gymrats who post annoying selfies on social media may be barred from the gym, and the elderly may qualify for "Cuomos" aka expedited euthanasia plans. All hail our glorious leader!

Numbers that quite frankly don’t feel accurate. I think they should revise both vaccinated and July’s job numbers. The mall still empty, stores are closing. I still don’t see people sitting in restaurants, other than a typical weekend night. I believe what my eyes tells me, and it’s not looking any better than few months ago. And now this could be the final nail in the coffin for small businesses.



Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 06, 2021, 10:50:06 PM
So, the Spanish Flu came from Spain? Just askin'.

Its called the Spanish Flu because the Spanish were the only ones talking about it, so therefore "Spanish" Flu
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 02:15:48 AM
Biden announced today that 350 million Americans have been vaccinated, meaning more than 100% of Americans have taken the jab.
https://news.yahoo.com/joe-biden-says-350-million-171101167.html

That's 20 millions more than the Americans currently alive 😂 I guess that Biden messed up as usual and was talking about the shots given in the US. The number of fully vaccinated Americans is about 50%.

Quote
Since there's no longer any reason for a vaccine passport, I assume they'll institute a universal health passport instead, where people get access to different services based on their health needs. For instance, the obese may be barred from McDonald's, gymrats who post annoying selfies on social media may be barred from the gym, and the elderly may qualify for "Cuomos" aka expedited euthanasia plans.

I would dig the restrictions applied to gym rats.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 02:25:09 AM
So, the Spanish Flu came from Spain? Just askin'.

Its called the Spanish Flu because the Spanish were the only ones talking about it, so therefore "Spanish" Flu

Exactly. As neutral they weren't subjected to war censorship and so they were the first to talk about it - especially after their King Alphonse XIII got sick and almost died.

So, since we obsess with precise geographic terms like "Wuhan Flu" or "Kung Flu" it is only fair towards Spain to rename the 1918-1919 pandemic "Kansas Flu" or "AmeriFlu". I'm confident that other posters will see the justice and appropriateness of fixing this historical misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 07, 2021, 02:46:21 AM
So, since we obsess with precise geographic terms like "Wuhan Flu" or "Kung Flu" it is only fair towards Spain to rename the 1918-1919 pandemic "Kansas Flu" or "AmeriFlu". I'm confident that other posters will see the justice and appropriateness of fixing this historical misunderstanding.
Except the Haskell origin has been debunked. Might as well name it the Bergamo Flu.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 03:37:37 AM
So, since we obsess with precise geographic terms like "Wuhan Flu" or "Kung Flu" it is only fair towards Spain to rename the 1918-1919 pandemic "Kansas Flu" or "AmeriFlu". I'm confident that other posters will see the justice and appropriateness of fixing this historical misunderstanding.
Except the Haskell origin has been debunked.

Actually it hasn't. Re-read what was posted here...

No, sorry, let me rephrase that: read what was posted here.

Quote
Might as well name it the Bergamo Flu.

I see that there is some confusion and crossed wires in your head regarding the discourse about two different pandemics one century apart from each other. Unsurprisingly 😂
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 07, 2021, 03:43:11 AM
Sorry, it has been debunked. Try to avoid those Breitbart conspiracy theories you love so much.

The equivalence of Kansas and Bergamo should have been obvious from context, but grasping that's obviously not a strength of yours.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 05:40:50 AM
Sorry, it has been debunked. Try to avoid those Breitbart conspiracy theories you love so much.

Beside missing why it is still the most probable origin, due to strange omissions in the "debunking study"... At which point you also missed "Please, just don't quote me Breitbart News"? For Go*sake, at least try to read a thread.

Quote
The equivalence of Kansas and Bergamo should have been obvious from context,

Context being "Bergamo, 2020, via Wuhan" vs. "Kansas, 1919, via maybe New York City"? The very study you quoted, and which I actually read for you, says that, at the end, the 1918 flu very possibly had origins in North America (I posted the very abstract, but, amen to that) - making it "The Ameriflu of 1918" , if you really want to use idiotic terms like "The Wuhan Flu of 2019".

Quote
but grasping that's obviously not a strength of yours.

Nor reading what is actually posted before answering is a strength of yours. No one is perfect.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 07, 2021, 06:43:18 AM
You actually believe that nonsense? Keep eating the anti-vaxxer cookies dumbass, but puking up the misinformation is wrong...and cowardly.

Good luck with all your sick "fully vaccinated" patients a few weeks from now. You're going to need it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 07, 2021, 08:49:11 AM
Sorry, it has been debunked. Try to avoid those Breitbart conspiracy theories you love so much.

Beside missing why it is still the most probable origin, due to strange omissions in the "debunking study"... At which point you also missed "Please, just don't quote me Breitbart News"? For Go*sake, at least try to read a thread.

Quote
The equivalence of Kansas and Bergamo should have been obvious from context,

Context being "Bergamo, 2020, via Wuhan" vs. "Kansas, 1919, via maybe New York City"? The very study you quoted, and which I actually read for you, says that, at the end, the 1918 flu very possibly had origins in North America (I posted the very abstract, but, amen to that) - making it "The Ameriflu of 1918" , if you really want to use idiotic terms like "The Wuhan Flu of 2019".

Quote
but grasping that's obviously not a strength of yours.

Nor reading what is actually posted before answering is a strength of yours. No one is perfect.
I know you're a fan of Brietbart, but could you stop bringing them up in every post? Kthxbye.

And what's this Bergamo 2020 nonsense? That's more than a 100 years off. I was providing an equally valid alternate name for the 1918 flu, which you repeatedly and erroneously referred to as the Kansas flu. If you read for context, you'd know that. My satire wasn't very subtle, so even someone like you who is almost totally blind to context should be able to grasp it.

Also, you must have missed where I said the Bergamo flu could have had a general North American origin, before you did. If you read what I actually posted, you'd have known that.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 08:50:40 AM
You actually believe that nonsense? Keep eating the anti-vaxxer cookies dumbass, but puking up the misinformation is wrong...and cowardly.

Good luck with all your sick "fully vaccinated" patients a few weeks from now. You're going to need it.
Let's see if you're as bad at predicting the future as your Pillow Prophet.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 07, 2021, 09:18:03 AM
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.

I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid for ages 30 to 39 range from 0.1% to 0.3%, so if we use an average of 0.2% times the population of Florida (2.6 million aged 30 to 39) equals 5 200 people.

So if you work in healthcare in Florida then yes I would expect you to see "a few" die from the Wuhan Covid.

The data as of 2021-06-02 for Florida is
http://ww11.doh.state.fl.us/comm/_partners/covid19_report_archive/cases-monitoring-and-pui-information/county-report/county_reports_latest.pdf
(bottom of page 1)
I recalculated the % of total so that I could display a sufficient number of sig figs to avoid non-zero # of deaths having a zero % of total. I also added ascending and descending cumulative % totals.

The number of deaths over the age cohort of 25 to 44 is 221 +609 = 830. The % of total is 0.65 +1.65 = 2.3%.

As a comparison, the deaths from motor vehicle crashes for that age cohort is roughly the same (988 in 2019, 903 average over 2000-19, 963 median value over 2000-19). And interestingly enough, the deaths from motor vehicle crashes for the 0-4 yr age cohort in 2019 (31) are roughly an order of magnitude higher.
http://www.flhealthcharts.com/ChartsReports/rdPage.aspx?rdReport=Death.Dataviewer

                                                      cumulative % totals (by age)
age             # deaths    % of total     (ascending)  (descending)
0-4 years           2               0.01       100.00            0.01
5-14 years         5               0.01         99.99            0.02
15-24 years      56              0.15         99.98            0.17
25-34 years     221             0.60         99.83            0.77
35-44 years     609             1.65         99.23            2.42
45-54 years   1,518            4.11         97.58            6.52
55-64 years   4,190          11.33         93.48          17.85
65-74 years   7,936          21.46         82.15          39.32
75-84 years   11,130        30.10         60.68          69.42
85+ years      11,306        30.58        30.58         100.00



Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 07, 2021, 12:44:04 PM
The idea that anyone can compare the Spanish Flu, where the technology of the time and the passage of time makes any effort to trace the origin speculative at best, to the Wuhan Flu, where the outbreak occurred in the same city where a level 4 lab with a history of lax security and contracts for enhancing coronaviruses is situated, is ludicrous.  Even if Covid 19 wasn't a lab leak, the next prevailing theories are the virus jumping from a bat or pangolin in the Wuhan wet-markets or the natural jumping occurring from bats in the region.  So all theories (except the Chinese's propaganda one) have this virus originating in China near Wuhan.  At best, if you accept the lab leak hypothesis, you could call this the "Fauci virus," since the NIAID paid for the gain-of-function research that might have spawned it (which we now how pretty clear evidence for, since the NIH scrubbed the public databases of the contracts soon after Rand Paul pointed them out.  Why do that unless they make you look guilty?).  If you object to Wu-Flu, I'll accept Fauci-Flu as an alternative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 12:46:54 PM
I was reading that employees fired for noncompliance with their employer's vaccine requirements will not be eligible for unemployment benefits. This falls under a willful act that leads to separation. I think this will likely become the true form of pressure on the unvaccinated rather than the hyperbole of people being imprisoned for not taking the vaccine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 12:48:21 PM
The idea that anyone can compare the Spanish Flu, where the technology of the time and the passage of time makes any effort to trace the origin speculative at best, to the Wuhan Flu, where the outbreak occurred in the same city where a level 4 lab with a history of lax security and contracts for enhancing coronaviruses is situated, is ludicrous.  Even if Covid 19 wasn't a lab leak, the next prevailing theories are the virus jumping from a bat or pangolin in the Wuhan wet-markets or the natural jumping occurring from bats in the region.  So all theories (except the Chinese's propaganda one) have this virus originating in China near Wuhan.  At best, if you accept the lab leak hypothesis, you could call this the "Fauci virus," since the NIAID paid for the gain-of-function research that might have spawned it (which we now how pretty clear evidence for, since the NIH scrubbed the public databases of the contracts soon after Rand Paul pointed them out.  Why do that unless they make you look guilty?).  If you object to Wu-Flu, I'll accept Fauci-Flu as an alternative.
Because calling it Covid or Covid-19 is too hard for you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 07, 2021, 01:09:43 PM
I think this will likely become the true form of pressure on the unvaccinated rather than the hyperbole of people being imprisoned for not taking the vaccine.
....Because thats so much better? If the less hyperbolic version of a kick to the dick is a punch to the face-thats not very significant in terms of public appeal.

With how flaky the situation is (with the mutating virus, lax testing, and the general weak effectiveness of the vaccine even taking it at face value) what is so unethical, or evil, or stupid about being aprehensive about taking it? Again, there is also a noted psychological effect where if you try to FORCE the undecided, they become resentful and uncompliant.

And Im vaccinated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 01:18:16 PM
Again, there is also a noted psychological effect where if you try to FORCE the undecided, they become resentful and uncompliant.

That exactly the reason why I think that OSHA didn't made mandatory to report vaccines' side effects while leaving the door open to freely do it, BTW.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 07, 2021, 02:18:37 PM
The idea that anyone can compare the Spanish Flu, where the technology of the time and the passage of time makes any effort to trace the origin speculative at best, to the Wuhan Flu, where the outbreak occurred in the same city where a level 4 lab with a history of lax security and contracts for enhancing coronaviruses is situated, is ludicrous.  Even if Covid 19 wasn't a lab leak, the next prevailing theories are the virus jumping from a bat or pangolin in the Wuhan wet-markets or the natural jumping occurring from bats in the region.  So all theories (except the Chinese's propaganda one) have this virus originating in China near Wuhan.  At best, if you accept the lab leak hypothesis, you could call this the "Fauci virus," since the NIAID paid for the gain-of-function research that might have spawned it (which we now how pretty clear evidence for, since the NIH scrubbed the public databases of the contracts soon after Rand Paul pointed them out.  Why do that unless they make you look guilty?).  If you object to Wu-Flu, I'll accept Fauci-Flu as an alternative.
Because calling it Covid or Covid-19 is too hard for you?
I believe in giving credit where credit is due.  There's a decent chance that China's bio research, funded by the US's NIH, caused the greatest pandemic of the 21st century so far.  Shouldn't they get the credit for it?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 03:13:43 PM
I think this will likely become the true form of pressure on the unvaccinated rather than the hyperbole of people being imprisoned for not taking the vaccine.
....Because thats so much better? If the less hyperbolic version of a kick to the dick is a punch to the face-thats not very significant in terms of public appeal.

With how flaky the situation is (with the mutating virus, lax testing, and the general weak effectiveness of the vaccine even taking it at face value) what is so unethical, or evil, or stupid about being aprehensive about taking it? Again, there is also a noted psychological effect where if you try to FORCE the undecided, they become resentful and uncompliant.

And Im vaccinated.
I think it's "better" to discuss the likely reality rather than the fevered imaginary outcomes of the crazy conspiracy theorists.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 07, 2021, 03:53:50 PM
I think it's "better" to discuss the likely reality rather than the fevered imaginary outcomes of the crazy conspiracy theorists.

Right, Everyone will have to take the vaccine, period. For those scared of the second needle, just get it over with because the third and subsequent ones are looking real promising. Positive side of things, at least you have a certain degree of protection.
Still, better than being outcasted and forbidden to virtually enter anywhere but a vax clinic. They don’t sell groceries there!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 07, 2021, 04:05:30 PM
I think it's "better" to discuss the likely reality rather than the fevered imaginary outcomes of the crazy conspiracy theorists.
The reality that the methods are slightly less draconian then envisioned?
If the vaccine doesn’t make you less of a carrier, why does it bother you that others could be more naturally cautious of the injections?

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 04:51:59 PM
I think it's "better" to discuss the likely reality rather than the fevered imaginary outcomes of the crazy conspiracy theorists.
The reality that the methods are slightly less draconian then envisioned?
If the vaccine doesn’t make you less of a carrier, why does it bother you that others could be more naturally cautious of the injections?
Those are two different points. I was addressing the first one (better to discuss what is likely to happen than the exaggerated imagining). Do you want to let that rest and shift to the second instead? If so, note that I'm not the one that said it "bothered" me for the reasons that you state.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 07, 2021, 05:23:19 PM
It's not "imprison". It starts slowly; first, social shaming. Then, you can't go out to mass events. Then restaurants and cinemas. Then who knows...

It's a war of attrition, they expect you to give in without having to shoot a single bullet, all with the consent of society and out in the open. If the vaccine were so necessary, then we would see that the countries with the lowest vaccination rates and most lenient quarantines are suffering the most yet this isn't what happened (Poland, Russia, states like Florida, Texas, Uruguay, Slovenia, etc.). And this leaky vaccine can end up causing new, vaccine-resistant strains, apart from the side effects which are confirmed to accompany it. That's why Gibraltar is a no-go zone in spite of having a 100% vaccinated population.

You're an idiot if you still think this is about public health, your safety or a fucking virus. Especially if its promoted by the same people who were concerned about overpopulation...

A couple of years ago, Bill Gates (one of the main funders of the UN) proposed the ID2020 initiative as part of the UN's Agenda 2030 for sustainable development; a digital, worldwide ID. He participated in the Event 201; a simulation along with the WEF to see how a coronavirus from Wuhan would spread. And along came a virus that required "resetting capitalism" and international vaccine passports. This is about an international social credit system. You'll own nothing and you'll be happy by 2030
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 07, 2021, 05:26:05 PM
Those are two different points. I was addressing the first one (better to discuss what is likely to happen than the exaggerated imagining). Do you want to let that rest and shift to the second instead? If so, note that I'm not the one that said it "bothered" me for the reasons that you state.

The point about 'We aren't LITERALLY jailing you' sounds allot like the SJW points about free speech; not literally making it illegal to disagree with them, but still very much going against the spirit of the idea and making it difficult to express your opinion in every literal other way, to bypass the law in a way (social control can actually be more effective then laws in a way). Its also not hard to imagine to be the next step after this. Temporary jailing before the vaccine is injected by force. If you fundementally disagree with the autonomy of people, then the last step is a logical end point.

And maybe it doesn't bother you, but you sure act that way. Irritated by people who even disagree, or find things suspect.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 07, 2021, 05:27:26 PM
Moving away from the discussion about Spanish Flu...



Masks? World Health Organization 2019 Influenza Pandemic Playbook:

(https://i.imgur.com/zJtoqPy.jpg)
Couple of newer studies demonstrating that Covid is primarily transmitted through aerosols less than 5 microns in size.
I don't have a quick text link but notably former Biden health advisor Dr. Michael Osterhelm is now breaking ranks and admitting that cloth & surgical masks are useless at stopping spread of Covid.

Quote from: Clare Craig, MD. Pathologist
Aerosols that small are equivalent to smoke particles. They can travel miles and they make masks pointless.

(https://i.imgur.com/dMZlw0d.png)


How many times can "Public Health Officials" lie and people still believe them? First about Covid origins, then about efficacy of masks & lockdowns, now about efficacy of vaccines. Is there anything they haven't directly and demonstrably lied about?


Eliminating Covid is impossible at this stage. Measures like Lockdowns cause more harm without meaningfully stopping spread of aerosols that are in the atmosphere:

Quote
In the first 4 months of 2021, Australia’s all-cause mortality was up 5.6%. Cancer deaths up by 8.9% thanks to inadequate treatment over lockdown. Dementia is up 18.9% thanks to social isolation. 0 covid deaths. Covid zero is a failed policy that is killing Australians


The vaccines that are being pushed on people are not sterilizing vaccines. Infection and transmission continues regardless of vaccination status. In circumstances where vaccine-provoked immune response is insufficient, this can drive greater disease virulence1 (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15757475/), 2 (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous).

Quote from: Robert Malone, MD
Continuing to push universal vaccination is reasonably likely to drive development of a "supervirus" variant that will be completely resistant to spike antigen-driven vaccine immune responses.  Universal vaccination- bad policy based on naive understanding of viral evolution.

Quote from: Luc Montagnier, MD PhD, Nobel Laureate 2008
We’re in unknown territory and proclaim mandatory vaccines for everyone. It’s insanity. It’s vaccination insanity that I absolutely condemn. ...  [variants] are a production and result from the vaccination.

Evolutionary Biologists Bret Weinstein & Heather Heyer talk about Natural vs. Vaccine Immunity:
https://odysee.com/@DarkHorsePodcastClips:b/Natural-Vs-Vaccine-immunity:4
 (https://odysee.com/@DarkHorsePodcastClips:b/Natural-Vs-Vaccine-immunity:4)

But there's good news. Most of the population has already been infected and has acquired immunity. Did you get vaccinated? Great. You have some protection. Did you get infected? Even better.

Israel National News (https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762)
Quote from: IsraelNationalNews
By contrast, Israelis who were vaccinated were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection, with over 3,000 of the 5,193,499, or 0.0578%, of Israelis who were vaccinated getting infected in the latest wave.

Even if we could eliminate Covid in human populations, Covid will remain a persistent environmental pathogen.

Quote
Between January and March 2021, the U.S. Department of Agriculture tested 385 white-tailed deer found throughout the states of Michigan, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania, where they detected antibodies for SARS-CoV-2 in 40% of the population, both National Geographic and Nature reported on Monday. An additional three samples from January 2020 also showed antibodies.

How many mammalian species on the planet are now viral reservoirs? Are we going to try hunting down every last animal on the planet to vaccinate them too? Worrying about possible RNA transcription events that are occuring millions of times in every living every second is pointless and self-defeating.

So what can we do?

(https://i.imgur.com/fENLYoW.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 05:39:26 PM
Those are two different points. I was addressing the first one (better to discuss what is likely to happen than the exaggerated imagining). Do you want to let that rest and shift to the second instead? If so, note that I'm not the one that said it "bothered" me for the reasons that you state.

The point about 'We aren't LITERALLY jailing you' sounds allot like the SJW points about free speech; not literally making it illegal to disagree with them, but still very much going against the spirit of the idea and making it difficult to express your opinion in every literal other way, to bypass the law in a way (social control can actually be more effective then laws in a way). Its also not hard to imagine to be the next step after this. Temporary jailing before the vaccine is injected by force. If you fundementally disagree with the autonomy of people, then the last step is a logical end point.

And maybe it doesn't bother you, but you sure act that way. Irritated by people who even disagree, or find things suspect.
Ok, you want to stick to the nonsense over the reality. Carry on, but I'll just go back to making fun of you. It's OK, I view it as a win.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 07, 2021, 05:53:49 PM
It's OK, I view it as a win.
.....I figured this was about a 'win' for you, as opposed to a discussion of an issue thats affecting people you theoretically care about.
In that case you get 100 points and the Super Platinum trophy. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 06:05:32 PM
It's OK, I view it as a win.
.....I figured this was about a 'win' for you, as opposed to a discussion of an issue thats affecting people you theoretically care about.
In that case you get 100 points and the Super Platinum trophy. Enjoy.
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 07, 2021, 06:10:50 PM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.
Nah, Im just a dummy. What would be the point, now that you have won? If the entire point of this was to make fun of me and score you a win, I wouldn't want to take that joy away from you. If 'winning' was the point (and you won), I don't really see this as a conversation that will enlighten either of us (especially not you since your the clear victor).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 07, 2021, 06:39:36 PM
I think this will likely become the true form of pressure on the unvaccinated rather than the hyperbole of people being imprisoned for not taking the vaccine.
....Because thats so much better? If the less hyperbolic version of a kick to the dick is a punch to the face-thats not very significant in terms of public appeal.

With how flaky the situation is (with the mutating virus, lax testing, and the general weak effectiveness of the vaccine even taking it at face value) what is so unethical, or evil, or stupid about being aprehensive about taking it? Again, there is also a noted psychological effect where if you try to FORCE the undecided, they become resentful and uncompliant.

And Im vaccinated.
I think it's "better" to discuss the likely reality rather than the fevered imaginary outcomes of the crazy conspiracy theorists.
IMAX called.  They are threatening legal action over your violation of their patent concerning massive projections.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 07, 2021, 07:06:05 PM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

I have not and my immune system still functions as it has done up until this point. Like a proper fascist, you want to force everyone not stupid enough to have taken part in human trials for free to join in your madness to validate your poor decision making.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 07:57:58 PM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

I have not and my immune system still functions as it has done up until this point. Like a proper fascist, you want to force everyone not stupid enough to have taken part in human trials for free to join in your madness to validate your poor decision making.
Show me where I've forced anyone to do anything.

BTW, in this thread I've been called a Marxist, a SJW, and now a fascist. Y'all just have to have your cult-approved labels for those that don't agree with you, don't you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 07, 2021, 08:19:36 PM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

I have not and my immune system still functions as it has done up until this point. Like a proper fascist, you want to force everyone not stupid enough to have taken part in human trials for free to join in your madness to validate your poor decision making.

That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.  Especially now that we are finding out the vaccine can, at BEST, suppress the worst symptoms.  Not even full immunity which other vaccines had no trouble in doing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 08:23:21 PM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 08:29:21 PM
That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.

Sadly, you are not "retarded" enough to understand why it is normal that some jobs are protected by the law (and not "made immune": the wording still is "unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company"; there is a clue for you there).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 07, 2021, 11:06:54 PM


Eliminating Covid is impossible at this stage.

Excellent post save for this part. It's always been impossible. And they knew it. It's impossible to stop the spread of a virus; even with 100% vaccinations. That's how people still catch diseases to this day, in spite of mass immunization and vaccination. The flu, chicken pox, common cold, etc. are but a few. There are trillions of those viruses roaming around. Coronaviruses are no exception. There will always be another variant. There is no "post-covid" world.

You don't have to be a scientist to know this. Complete erradication of a virus is impossible; only one case happened, and that's smallpox, which was in decline way before vaccines.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 07, 2021, 11:37:29 PM

Excellent post save for this part. It's always been impossible. And they knew it. It's impossible to stop the spread of a virus; even with 100% vaccinations. That's how people still catch diseases to this day, in spite of mass immunization and vaccination. The flu, chicken pox, common cold, etc. are but a few. There are trillions of those viruses roaming around. Coronaviruses are no exception. There will always be another variant. There is no "post-covid" world.

You don't have to be a scientist to know this. Complete erradication of a virus is impossible; only one case happened, and that's smallpox, which was in decline way before vaccines.
It's not impossible, just extraordinarily difficult. Look at how the island nations, like New Zealand, Australia, Japan, and Taiwan have handled it. Strong border controls, testing and quarantine of new arrivals, and then immediate lockdowns and contact tracing when a few cases slip through the cracks. Contact tracing is pointless once there's widespread community transmission, but it can work when there are a small handful of cases.

It's definitely true that was never an option for the rest of the world. China didn't contain the disease, despite extraordinary measures. And in the US and Europe, there was widespread community transmission before a pandemic was declared. The genie was out of the bottle. Even the island nations are only stalling; unless they isolate themselves forever, the only thing they're doing is delaying the start of the local spread. Vaccines can mitigate the effects, but they won't extinguish the disease.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 08, 2021, 01:05:30 AM
That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.

Sadly, you are not "retarded" enough to understand why it is normal that some jobs are protected by the law (and not "made immune": the wording still is "unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company"; there is a clue for you there).

A rush job is a rush job no matter the intentions which by the way good luck proving the intentions of the pharmaceutical companies even when they did willful misconduct.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 08, 2021, 03:22:10 AM
The problem isn't willful misconduct.

The problem is, these vaccines were created and deployed to, at last count, a billion people over the world, all in the span of less than a year.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-vaccine-safety-system-has-gaps-may-miss-unexpected-side-n1265986

I don't think the pharmecutical companies are twirling their mustaches, I simply think they and the government are protecting themselves from any tangible responsibility if there are unforseen side effects that won't manifest right away.

If that does come to pass, we'll probably get some "heartfelt" apologies mixed with a reminder that they were faced with a crisis, and a majority of people willingly took the vaccines.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 05:11:58 AM
That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.

Sadly, you are not "retarded" enough to understand why it is normal that some jobs are protected by the law (and not "made immune": the wording still is "unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company"; there is a clue for you there).

A rush job is a rush job no matter the intentions which by the way good luck proving the intentions of the pharmaceutical companies even when they did willful misconduct.

Again, how developing a vaccine in a relatively short time was made possible has been explained over and over. I would expect for someone to look at these explanations and point out where they are wrong or misleading. I would listen, but, no: "truths" are repeated with no research or context.

It is the old example of "someone fired a gun and another man died!" with no one ever considering that the other man died of a heart attack and he was deaf.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 06:45:30 AM
Show me where I've forced anyone to do anything.

BTW, in this thread I've been called a Marxist, a SJW, and now a fascist. Y'all just have to have your cult-approved labels for those that don't agree with you, don't you?

You're talking about all the means that could be used to coerce people who don't want to be jabbed into getting jabbed. You're an advocate for medical tyranny, pretty basic fascism.

That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.  Especially now that we are finding out the vaccine can, at BEST, suppress the worst symptoms.  Not even full immunity which other vaccines had no trouble in doing.

My mind boggles that supposedly intelligent people don't seem to grasp this. And all for a "vaccine" that is completely unnecessary, even if it actually worked (which it doesn't).

"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

Excellent post save for this part. It's always been impossible. And they knew it. It's impossible to stop the spread of a virus; even with 100% vaccinations. That's how people still catch diseases to this day, in spite of mass immunization and vaccination. The flu, chicken pox, common cold, etc. are but a few. There are trillions of those viruses roaming around. Coronaviruses are no exception. There will always be another variant. There is no "post-covid" world.

You don't have to be a scientist to know this. Complete erradication of a virus is impossible; only one case happened, and that's smallpox, which was in decline way before vaccines.

Exactly, coronaviruses have been endemic as long as we've had settled civilisation. It's utterly futile to attempt to "eradicate" them, and given the utter failure of 60-odd years of research into vaccines for them, we can't anyway.

Again, how developing a vaccine in a relatively short time was made possible has been explained over and over. I would expect for someone to look at these explanations and point out where they are wrong or misleading. I would listen, but, no: "truths" are repeated with no research or context.

It is the old example of "someone fired a gun and another man died!" with no one ever considering that the other man died of a heart attack and he was deaf.

It's not a "vaccine" because it doesn't provide immunity. And the fact that the snake oil has been developed in record time, cutting corners on all the normal trial methodology and licensed under emergency use with a waiver of liability for the manufacturers does commend it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 07:39:42 AM
That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.

Sadly, you are not "retarded" enough to understand why it is normal that some jobs are protected by the law (and not "made immune": the wording still is "unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company"; there is a clue for you there).

A rush job is a rush job no matter the intentions which by the way good luck proving the intentions of the pharmaceutical companies even when they did willful misconduct.

Again, how developing a vaccine in a relatively short time was made possible has been explained over and over. I would expect for someone to look at these explanations and point out where they are wrong or misleading. I would listen, but, no: "truths" are repeated with no research or context.

It is the old example of "someone fired a gun and another man died!" with no one ever considering that the other man died of a heart attack and he was deaf.
Once again, you're making broad assertions that a broad but undefined group of people are wrong, without explaining what they said, or how it was wrong. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to address a specific claim, and respond with specifics, rather than making vague assertions about "truths" and how it's been "explained", combined with analogies that could mean anything.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 08:02:56 AM
Show me where I've forced anyone to do anything.

BTW, in this thread I've been called a Marxist, a SJW, and now a fascist. Y'all just have to have your cult-approved labels for those that don't agree with you, don't you?

You're talking about all the means that could be used to coerce people who don't want to be jabbed into getting jabbed. You're an advocate for medical tyranny, pretty basic fascism.

That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.  Especially now that we are finding out the vaccine can, at BEST, suppress the worst symptoms.  Not even full immunity which other vaccines had no trouble in doing.

My mind boggles that supposedly intelligent people don't seem to grasp this. And all for a "vaccine" that is completely unnecessary, even if it actually worked (which it doesn't).

"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

Excellent post save for this part. It's always been impossible. And they knew it. It's impossible to stop the spread of a virus; even with 100% vaccinations. That's how people still catch diseases to this day, in spite of mass immunization and vaccination. The flu, chicken pox, common cold, etc. are but a few. There are trillions of those viruses roaming around. Coronaviruses are no exception. There will always be another variant. There is no "post-covid" world.

You don't have to be a scientist to know this. Complete erradication of a virus is impossible; only one case happened, and that's smallpox, which was in decline way before vaccines.

Exactly, coronaviruses have been endemic as long as we've had settled civilisation. It's utterly futile to attempt to "eradicate" them, and given the utter failure of 60-odd years of research into vaccines for them, we can't anyway.

Again, how developing a vaccine in a relatively short time was made possible has been explained over and over. I would expect for someone to look at these explanations and point out where they are wrong or misleading. I would listen, but, no: "truths" are repeated with no research or context.

It is the old example of "someone fired a gun and another man died!" with no one ever considering that the other man died of a heart attack and he was deaf.

It's not a "vaccine" because it doesn't provide immunity. And the fact that the snake oil has been developed in record time, cutting corners on all the normal trial methodology and licensed under emergency use with a waiver of liability for the manufacturers does commend it.
Talking about a point doesn't mean I'm an advocate of the point. That's as moronic as assuming that anyone that discusses BLM's methods is by default an advocate of those methods. You just want so hard to see me as an enemy that you're willing to make moronic leaps to do so. You're not alone in that, and that's why I pity fools like you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 08:42:53 AM
Talking about a point doesn't mean I'm an advocate of the point. That's as moronic as assuming that anyone that discusses BLM's methods is by default an advocate of those methods. You just want so hard to see me as an enemy that you're willing to make moronic leaps to do so. You're not alone in that, and that's why I pity fools like you.

I'm not the one who's fucked in the autumn.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 09:10:33 AM
Talking about a point doesn't mean I'm an advocate of the point. That's as moronic as assuming that anyone that discusses BLM's methods is by default an advocate of those methods. You just want so hard to see me as an enemy that you're willing to make moronic leaps to do so. You're not alone in that, and that's why I pity fools like you.

I'm not the one who's fucked in the autumn.
Well, bless your heart, more baseless conspiracy nonsense. You.just dont know.any better, do you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 09:14:27 AM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

I have not and my immune system still functions as it has done up until this point. Like a proper fascist, you want to force everyone not stupid enough to have taken part in human trials for free to join in your madness to validate your poor decision making.
Show me where I've forced anyone to do anything.

BTW, in this thread I've been called a Marxist, a SJW, and now a fascist. Y'all just have to have your cult-approved labels for those that don't agree with you, don't you?

Remember: 2016 US Elections were influenced by Russia. 2020 US Elections were influenced by... the "Deep State" I guess (I like more the term "Delta Green" myself).

Whatever floats your boat is good.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 09:30:28 AM
Well, bless your heart, more baseless conspiracy nonsense. You.just dont know.any better, do you?

Every coronavirus vaccine trial before now failed because of antibody dependent enhancement. Mysteriously, all the most-vaccinated countries (Israel, Iceland, the UK) are the ones experiencing surges in infections, hospitalisations and deaths.

But sure, it's totally fine...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

I already gave responses, on this very thread, with links. This is why I would expect a minimum of debunking effort, with references. But of course not anyone bothers to read what others actually say: a pulpit and a megafone don't work that way.

Anyway, here is an Article published on Nature about not only the COVID pandemic led to faster and sill safe methods to develop vaccines, but how the result could be a strategic breakthrough for medical sciences as a whole:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03626-1

Some hints: mRNA techniques were already known. Coronavirii were already well known. World cooperation. Superfunding.

If Nature uses too many $10 words for you, here is an article by Medical News Today:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/how-did-we-develop-a-covid-19-vaccine-so-quickly#Worldwide-collaboration

Actually, mRNA vaccines are already being tested as a way to fight cancer:

https://molecular-cancer.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12943-021-01335-5

Regarding why vaccine creators are protected by Law...

BECAUSE WITHOUT SUCH LAWS NO ONE WOULD EVER CREATE VACCINES

[Or a better version of Tylenol, for what matters.]

This protection was not made up out of thin air after the COVID emergency. The US Supreme Court passed it in May, 2018 - when a pandemic was only one of the vague menaces decried by soothsayers.

https://www.policymed.com/2011/03/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-protecting-vaccine-makers-from-state-lawsuits.html

You can ever read the 57 pages opinion written by Justice Antonin Scalia:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf

You disagree? These are fake news? Snake oil would be better? Fine. Debunk them. give me facts. Give me references. I promise that I'll read them. I already did regarding other matters on this thread.

Otherwise you are not different from the sheep in "Animal Farm": "Vaccines were rushed!" and such become only meaningless sound bleated by the sheep ("Two legs baa-d. Four legs goo-d."), serving no purpose other than to drown out dissenting opinion without tackling it.

Every coronavirus vaccine trial before now failed because of antibody dependent enhancement. Mysteriously, all the most-vaccinated countries (Israel, Iceland, the UK) are the ones experiencing surges in infections, hospitalisations and deaths.

No.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-iceland-vaccines-idUSL1N2P918F

"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 11:03:28 AM
"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

I already gave responses, on this very thread, with links. This is why I would expect a minimum of debunking effort, with references. But of course not anyone bothers to read what others actually say: a pulpit and a megafone don't work that way.

Anyway, here is an Article published on Nature about not only the COVID pandemic led to faster and sill safe methods to develop vaccines, but how the result could be a strategic breakthrough for medical sciences as a whole:
I notice you cut out the "statement" you're refuting. Here is it:

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.
You didn't address a single one of those points.

For someone whose go-to response is "nobody reads my posts", you're not very good at reading other people's posts.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 11:20:02 AM
"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

I already gave responses, on this very thread, with links. This is why I would expect a minimum of debunking effort, with references. But of course not anyone bothers to read what others actually say: a pulpit and a megafone don't work that way.

Anyway, here is an Article published on Nature about not only the COVID pandemic led to faster and sill safe methods to develop vaccines, but how the result could be a strategic breakthrough for medical sciences as a whole:
I notice you cut out the "statement" you're refuting. Here is it:

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.
You didn't address a single one of those points.

For someone whose go-to response is "nobody reads my posts", you're not very good at reading other people's posts.

Or maybe I already tackled all those points, in this very thread. Try to check.

Oh, BTW, in my latest post I made an obvious mistake. My bad: just glancing at it is enough to catch it. But I guess you didn't read it. Of course the answer was instead the usual rush to "You didn't address this!" about things addressed over and over here.

Not even my request for facts and links was enough to prevent...
Quote
The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

...Without facts and links. ::) No. The usual Twitterati factoid, instead. Given as that. The literal Word of God.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 11:25:29 AM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 11:26:47 AM
"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

I already gave responses, on this very thread, with links. This is why I would expect a minimum of debunking effort, with references. But of course not anyone bothers to read what others actually say: a pulpit and a megafone don't work that way.

Anyway, here is an Article published on Nature about not only the COVID pandemic led to faster and sill safe methods to develop vaccines, but how the result could be a strategic breakthrough for medical sciences as a whole:
I notice you cut out the "statement" you're refuting. Here is it:

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.
You didn't address a single one of those points.

For someone whose go-to response is "nobody reads my posts", you're not very good at reading other people's posts.

Or maybe I already tackled all those points, in this very thread. Try to check.

Oh, BTW, in my latest post I made an obvious mistake. My bad: just glancing at it is enough to catch it. But I guess you didn't read it. Of course the answer was instead the usual rush to "You didn't address this!" about things addressed over and over here.

Not even my request for facts and links was enough to prevent...
Quote
The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

...Without facts and links. ::) No. The usual Twitterati factoid, instead. Given as that. The literal Word of God.
So you responded to a post
Where you criticized the poster for not reading your posts
And then ignored the content of the post you were replying to
And instead posted a bunch of things that had nothing to do with what they said
And when I pointed that out
You told me it was my fault because I didn't read all the other posts in the thread where you replied to the post before it even existed

Yea, that makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 08, 2021, 11:26:57 AM
I can't really argue points said by experts because Im not a experts. It would be one source (with their own biases) VS another source (with their own biases).

I don't know the science behind it well enough to argue one way or the other, which is why my concerns hang more on motivations and general actions.

Its like with global warming: I don't 100% know whats going on. But global warming advocates will reject any sort of assistance or compromise that doesn't involve absolute submission to their ideals. We don't need to 100% agree to remove plastics from the oceans for instance, but every global warming advocate I have spoken to will NEVER let their demand for submission go. Which tells me this (even if the science is accurate) is more a ego thing then a function thing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 11:44:02 AM
  I do not get the fight over the vax.  If you think you are vulnerable, or need it, get it.  If you are not and do not feel that way, do not get it.  If it had higher mortality of it's own I might feel differently, but it does not.  Kids do not seem bothered a whit, and for the most part fat people, old people with issues and diabetics seems the most vulnerable.  That has not changed.  If you fall into a category of concern due to data or your own feelings, wear a respirator or a gas mask out and about in the world.  Problem solved.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 11:54:04 AM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 11:58:55 AM
  I do not get the fight over the vax.  If you think you are vulnerable, or need it, get it.  If you are not and do not feel that way, do not get it.  If it had higher mortality of it's own I might feel differently, but it does not.  Kids do not seem bothered a whit, and for the most part fat people, old people with issues and diabetics seems the most vulnerable.  That has not changed.  If you fall into a category of concern due to data or your own feelings, wear a respirator or a gas mask out and about in the world.  Problem solved.

There's a "fight" because the cunts in charge think they can force it on my children.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 11:59:09 AM
  I do not get the fight over the vax.  If you think you are vulnerable, or need it, get it.  If you are not and do not feel that way, do not get it.  If it had higher mortality of it's own I might feel differently, but it does not.  Kids do not seem bothered a whit, and for the most part fat people, old people with issues and diabetics seems the most vulnerable.  That has not changed.  If you fall into a category of concern due to data or your own feelings, wear a respirator or a gas mask out and about in the world.  Problem solved.
I have seen very few children that test positive with Delta Covid, and none have had any major symptoms. I've seen several adolescents and people in their 20s testing positive, but their symptoms have been largely GI disturbances rather than the life-threatening lower respiratory conditions.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 12:00:12 PM
  I do not get the fight over the vax.  If you think you are vulnerable, or need it, get it.  If you are not and do not feel that way, do not get it.  If it had higher mortality of it's own I might feel differently, but it does not.  Kids do not seem bothered a whit, and for the most part fat people, old people with issues and diabetics seems the most vulnerable.  That has not changed.  If you fall into a category of concern due to data or your own feelings, wear a respirator or a gas mask out and about in the world.  Problem solved.

There's a "fight" because the cunts in charge think they can force it on my children.
Evidence? Show us some footage of someone forcing it upon your children.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 12:01:19 PM
No.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-iceland-vaccines-idUSL1N2P918F

"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.
You produce bullshit from "fact checkers" in earnest and expect me to take you seriously?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 12:04:58 PM
Evidence? Show us some footage of someone forcing it upon your children.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? I said they think they can. Not being a blinkered moron like yourself, I am capable of inferring motives from activities, such as the latest missive from our JCVI where they issued a statement on jabbing 12-17 year olds: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-statement-august-2021-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years/jcvi-statement-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years-4-august-2021

That's everyone at secondary school. Meanwhile the manufacturers are seeking approval to jab 5-11 year olds (do you need me to go and find easily sourced articles showing them seeking that approval too?), which will cover everyone at primary school.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 12:07:50 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.

Sigh.

You haven't really read everything through, did you?

And, honestly, I'm starting to be tired to read links for people who just post them. "Mom, can you read me 'Snow White and the Rocket Launcher'?" should belong to children. Maybe it is.

Anyway...

I post a link about how "Vaccines do not create variants." That's the point of the link.

And you answer with links that say:

"Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens" from 2015.

I mean... it is in the title! "Imperfect Vaccination"! ;D Who ever talked of "imperfect vaccinations" regarding Covid? Have you read the definition of "Imperfect Vaccination" given in the study? Does it apply to the current batch of vaccines? Answer: until proven otherwise, no. It is possible that a case could be made for the Chinese and Russian vaccines - not about what we are talking here. Also, you go against what is being observed out the practical experience born out a global pandemic, with billions of test cases observed over months... with a 2015 study who is the very first to admit that such expectation is only theoretical?

Then you fire your CDC link. A link with a very simple content, actually. It says:

"Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus."


Nowhere it says that "The Delta Variant was created by vaccines". More, the very text you linked says that being vaccinated still protects against all other variants and that you can't transmit them - which is still better than nothing.

[Which is one of the reasons why I think that a third shot will be mandatory]

The CDC, however, never pulled down this:

COVID-19 variants do not derive from the vaccine. The vaccine cannot replicate the virus. Guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) explaining how mRNA vaccines only provide instructions to the cells in the human body on how to make a “spike protein” is visible here .

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

Uff... ::)

Let's close with a small gem from a "Owner of the Truth":

You produce bullshit from "fact checkers" in earnest and expect me to take you seriously?

Bullshit? Cite. Counter-Facts? Links?

Either that or you are just in denial of everything that goes against the world view that you have decided for everybody - which is very SJW and "Tolkien was a Transgender!", but has nothing to do with a real and serious problem like a pandemic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 12:12:52 PM
Evidence? Show us some footage of someone forcing it upon your children.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? I said they think they can. Not being a blinkered moron like yourself, I am capable of inferring motives from activities, such as the latest missive from our JCVI where they issued a statement on jabbing 12-17 year olds: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-statement-august-2021-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years/jcvi-statement-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years-4-august-2021

That's everyone at secondary school. Meanwhile the manufacturers are seeking approval to jab 5-11 year olds (do you need me to go and find easily sourced articles showing them seeking that approval too?), which will cover everyone at primary school.
So...ThoughtCrime then? People can think whatever the fuck they want. Show me someone taking action or else you're just another crazy nutter running his cakehole.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 12:14:41 PM
So...ThoughtCrime then? People can think whatever the fuck they want. Show me someone taking action or else you're just another crazy nutter running his cakehole.

They're the people responsible for the vaccination programme in the UK, you imbecile. It's not some random opinion piece in an obscure online publication.

It's a statement of intent from the people doing the jabbing. They wouldn't carry out that assessment unless someone in government had given them the nod that it's happening.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 12:16:41 PM
  I do not get the fight over the vax.  If you think you are vulnerable, or need it, get it.  If you are not and do not feel that way, do not get it.  If it had higher mortality of it's own I might feel differently, but it does not.  Kids do not seem bothered a whit, and for the most part fat people, old people with issues and diabetics seems the most vulnerable.  That has not changed.  If you fall into a category of concern due to data or your own feelings, wear a respirator or a gas mask out and about in the world.  Problem solved.

There's a "fight" because the cunts in charge think they can force it on my children.
 
  You misunderstand me.  I mean on this forum.  I do not see any laws/policies as yet mandating vaccines for my kids.  I do think there are most certainly people who would LOVE to mandate such a thing.  But honestly a person's thoughts do not bother me as much as overt actions.  If schools become vaccine mandates for covid, I will just send my kids to private school.  If they go the same route...well homeschool and private online schools are taken  A MASSIVE step forward in quality and presentation (and funding) the past year and a half.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 12:18:03 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.

Sigh.

You haven't really read everything through, did you?

And, honestly, I'm starting to be tired to read links for people who just post them. "Mom, can you read me 'Snow White and the Rocket Launcher'?" should belong to children. Maybe it is.

Anyway...

I post a link about how "Vaccines do not create variants." That's the point of the link.

And you answer with links that say:

"Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens" from 2015.

I mean... it is in the title! "Imperfect Vaccination"! ;D Who ever talked of "imperfect vaccinations" regarding Covid? Have you read the definition of "Imperfect Vaccination" given in the study? Does it apply to the current batch of vaccines? Answer: until proven otherwise, no. It is possible that a case could be made for the Chinese and Russian vaccines - not about what we are talking here. Also, you go against what is being observed out the practical experience born out a global pandemic, with billions of test cases observed over months... with a 2015 study who is the very first to admit that such expectation is only theoretical?

Then you fire your CDC link. A link with a very simple content, actually. It says:

"Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus."


Nowhere it says that "The Delta Variant was created by vaccines". More, the very text you linked says that being vaccinated still protects against all other variants and that you can't transmit them - which is still better than nothing.

[Which is one of the reasons why I think that a third shot will be mandatory]

The CDC, however, never pulled down this:

COVID-19 variants do not derive from the vaccine. The vaccine cannot replicate the virus. Guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) explaining how mRNA vaccines only provide instructions to the cells in the human body on how to make a “spike protein” is visible here .

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

Uff... ::)

Let's close with a small gem from a "Owner of the Truth":

You produce bullshit from "fact checkers" in earnest and expect me to take you seriously?

Bullshit? Cite. Counter-Facts? Links?

Either that or you are just in denial of everything that goes against the world view that you have decided for everybody - which is very SJW and "Tolkien was a Transgender!", but has nothing to do with a real and serious problem like a pandemic.
Moving the goalposts, I see.  You didn't say "vaccines didn't cause delta".  You said "Vaccines cause variants.  Nope!"  You did not address the central point: Vaccines that don't stop transmission can drive viral variance (which is what "imperfect" means in the context of the article, you uneducated dolt).  The Covid vaccines don't stop transmission well.  Therefore...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 12:19:16 PM
You misunderstand me.  I mean on this forum.  I do not see any laws/policies as yet mandating vaccines for my kids.  I do think there are most certainly people who would LOVE to mandate such a thing.  But honestly a person's thoughts do not bother me as much as overt actions.  If schools become vaccine mandates for covid, I will just send my kids to private school.  If they go the same route...well homeschool and private online schools are taken  A MASSIVE step forward in quality and presentation (and funding) the past year and a half.

Not everyone on this forum is American. Here in the UK they've already extended the vaccination programme to 16 and 17 year olds, saying they're going to ignore parental consent that is usually required for this sort of thing. And they're signalling that 12-15 year olds are next.

All it will take is the requisite pressure from the teaching unions who demand that all children be jabbed to make teachers "safe" and it will become a requirement to attend school.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 12:21:52 PM
You misunderstand me.  I mean on this forum.  I do not see any laws/policies as yet mandating vaccines for my kids.  I do think there are most certainly people who would LOVE to mandate such a thing.  But honestly a person's thoughts do not bother me as much as overt actions.  If schools become vaccine mandates for covid, I will just send my kids to private school.  If they go the same route...well homeschool and private online schools are taken  A MASSIVE step forward in quality and presentation (and funding) the past year and a half.

Not everyone on this forum is American. Here in the UK they've already extended the vaccination programme to 16 and 17 year olds, saying they're going to ignore parental consent that is usually required for this sort of thing. And they're signalling that 12-15 year olds are next.

   Well, no offense, but in the UK you have long since surrendered any real chance of defying your government in a meaningful manner.    However, to that point, I am certain I do not want an institution educating my kids that feel they can mandate some things based on some pretty shaky ground (and no one tries to make Covid look deadly to kids...only to the old people they may know, who IMO can get a shot and wear a gas mask).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 12:23:16 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 12:25:21 PM
So...ThoughtCrime then? People can think whatever the fuck they want. Show me someone taking action or else you're just another crazy nutter running his cakehole.

They're the people responsible for the vaccination programme in the UK, you imbecile. It's not some random opinion piece in an obscure online publication.

It's a statement of intent from the people doing the jabbing. They wouldn't carry out that assessment unless someone in government had given them the nod that it's happening.
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 12:26:01 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 12:26:43 PM
cake hole.
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

You can't see further than your nose, unless someone has mapped it out for you. Got it.

Must be wonderfully liberating to live such a blinkered existence, do you get surprised a lot?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 12:28:28 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
I'm saying that your source doesn't support the part of the discussion you're now trying to go with.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 12:36:55 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 12:43:20 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 12:49:53 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
I'm saying that your source doesn't support the part of the discussion you're now trying to go with.
You'd be wrong (as usual).  Do vaccines that stop serious consequences from illness, but do not stop transmission of the virus, present a possible vector for viral variance?  I have posted a peer-reviewed article that says exactly that.  Post your (preferably peer-reviewed) refutation.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 12:53:03 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 01:00:17 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say, posting lots of links without making a coherent argument, and telling people it's already been covered and they need to read the whole thread again to guess what you're not saying.

You're the one shutting down any hope of a real conversation. You.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 01:02:58 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
I'm saying that your source doesn't support the part of the discussion you're now trying to go with.
You'd be wrong (as usual).  Do vaccines that stop serious consequences from illness, but do not stop transmission of the virus, present a possible vector for viral variance?  I have posted a peer-reviewed article that says exactly that.  Post your (preferably peer-reviewed) refutation.
Nope. You're drawing imagined meanings from your source. Your article isn't bad, but your interpretation of it is shit.

And I don't have to do what you demand. You should know this by now. I don't respect you enough to go along with your idiocy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 01:06:19 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
I'm saying that your source doesn't support the part of the discussion you're now trying to go with.
You'd be wrong (as usual).  Do vaccines that stop serious consequences from illness, but do not stop transmission of the virus, present a possible vector for viral variance?  I have posted a peer-reviewed article that says exactly that.

No, it doesn't, from the very title: "Imperfect Vaccination". No vaccine approved for emergency use by the FDA/EMA ever got the label "imperfect".

And what it says is that "Imperfect Vaccinations" can cause the vaccinated guy to be a possible vector for viral variances the way an unvaccinated guy is. However, we also saw - in the CDC link that you posted - how in our specific case only the Delta variant is a nasty little bugger for vaccinated people. Other variants are blocked by vaccines. Unvaccinated people get and distribute all the variants. The whole package.

The peer-reviewed refutation of what you posted are the very links you posted. Thank you for the effort.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 08, 2021, 01:17:56 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 01:19:17 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say
Nope. Disagreeing with what people say =/= ignoring what people say.
Quote
Posting lots of links without making a coherent argument

I try to post link pertinent to the specific topic that post refers to. There are many subtopics in this thread. This may give the idea of confusion, but a bit of patience is needed to follow the various subthreads.

Quote
and telling people it's already been covered and they need to read the whole thread again to guess what you're not saying.

I gave my opinion pro or against something - usually with links and even abstracts (*). When someone comes down screaming that I never tackled a certain topic I simply point out that I actually did. What should I do? Copy & Paste 20 times something because 20 people are too lazy to, you know, read the thread they are posting in?

Quote
You're the one shutting down any hope of a real conversation. You.

If with this you mean that my posts get reactions like "How do you dare to point out that what I'm saying has been thoroughly debunked everywhere??? It is true because I say it!!" then, yes, I'm shutting down "conversations".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 01:25:39 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say
Nope. Disagreeing with what people say =/= ignoring what people say.
That's a good example of ignoring what I said, because this particular discussion started because I pointed out that you replied to Kiero and claimed victory, but didn't address a single thing Kiero said.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 01:29:27 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say, posting lots of links without making a coherent argument, and telling people it's already been covered and they need to read the whole thread again to guess what you're not saying.

You're the one shutting down any hope of a real conversation. You.
No...

There is another.

Actually,  just about everyone here only wants a "conversation" so long as it follows their narrative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 01:32:40 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 01:35:56 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say
Nope. Disagreeing with what people say =/= ignoring what people say.
That's a good example of ignoring what I said, because this particular discussion started because I pointed out that you replied to Kiero and claimed victory, but didn't address a single thing Kiero said.
Well, then, he covered everything important that Kiero said... Which was nothing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 01:40:15 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say
Nope. Disagreeing with what people say =/= ignoring what people say.
That's a good example of ignoring what I said, because this particular discussion started because I pointed out that you replied to Kiero and claimed victory, but didn't address a single thing Kiero said.

Because. I. Already. Did.

And you were so absorbed with the absolutely certainty of your narrative that you weren't even able to really challenge me via the most basic question: "Where?"

Then people wonder why they end up "shut down" in their attempts to "discuss"  ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
I gave my opinion pro or against something - usually with links and even abstracts (*). When someone comes down screaming that I never tackled a certain topic I simply point out that I actually did. What should I do? Copy & Paste 20 times something because 20 people are too lazy to, you know, read the thread they are posting in?
I'll call this out as well, because it's an important concept.

The answer to your question?

Yes.

Yes, that's how we have discussions. Look at the main covid thread, I've repeated some of the same arguments many times. That's because it's unrealistic to expect new readers to be familiar with every last post, to know who posted what, or to follow every last volley of insults in case there was a relevant nugget of content, and then to synthesize all that in a reply to a throwaway assertion. Discussions are cumulative, but we also have to recognize the limitations of the medium, and discussion boards are more conversational than scholarly. We need to periodically summarize and restate.

But that isn't the real issue. The real issue is that most of the time, you don't even make your central thesis, and when people reply, you ignore their replies and post something else unrelated. Remember the time you posted something, and I had to infer that you were asking for an explanation for why the death rate in the US was higher than in many other countries? You never actually stated that. I had to guess what point you were trying to make based on a few statistical references. Many of your posts are like that. You don't make a point, you just post a bunch of links, or claim that people haven't refuted your claims, or simply claim victory, without making a clear argument.

And then what happened after I responded to your post? You didn't address any of the points I made, like how the US was a trade hub, or the high rate of obesity, or the large elderly population, or how some states did a terrible job protecting the elderly in congregate care hubs. You just ignored all that, and tried to dismiss my entire post on the basis of the governors I listed.

You do this all the time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 01:52:40 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.   
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 02:00:09 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say
Nope. Disagreeing with what people say =/= ignoring what people say.
That's a good example of ignoring what I said, because this particular discussion started because I pointed out that you replied to Kiero and claimed victory, but didn't address a single thing Kiero said.

Because. I. Already. Did.

And you were so absorbed with the absolutely certainty of your narrative that you weren't even able to really challenge me via the most basic question: "Where?"

Then people wonder why they end up "shut down" in their attempts to "discuss"  ::)
Then why didn't you just state that?

Because this isn't even one of those cases where you vaguely stated that you answered the question somewhere else in the thread, and they should go off and find it. Now that's a shitty answer, and a defacto admission that you've lost the argument. But at least by saying it, you're acknowledging what the other person said. You didn't even do that. You just went off on something completely unrelated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 02:05:49 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
I'm saying that your source doesn't support the part of the discussion you're now trying to go with.
You'd be wrong (as usual).  Do vaccines that stop serious consequences from illness, but do not stop transmission of the virus, present a possible vector for viral variance?  I have posted a peer-reviewed article that says exactly that.

No, it doesn't, from the very title: "Imperfect Vaccination". No vaccine approved for emergency use by the FDA/EMA ever got the label "imperfect".

And what it says is that "Imperfect Vaccinations" can cause the vaccinated guy to be a possible vector for viral variances the way an unvaccinated guy is. However, we also saw - in the CDC link that you posted - how in our specific case only the Delta variant is a nasty little bugger for vaccinated people. Other variants are blocked by vaccines. Unvaccinated people get and distribute all the variants. The whole package.

The peer-reviewed refutation of what you posted are the very links you posted. Thank you for the effort.
OMG.  Imperfect is a description, not a formal label.  For a minute, I thought you might be capable of a direct debate.  But no; you are either too stupid to understand how to read correctly, or you are just deflecting any point you can't counter..  Because it is obvious that both you and Happyderp can't counter the information provided.  You can't even read it properly!  What a waste of time.  The only good thing is that anyone reading these threads can easily see you are arguing in bad faith with no support...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 02:12:05 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.
That doesn't mean words=violence. By all means condemn people that verbally encourage violence, but there is a huge divide between ugly words and ugly action.

On a side note, I have seen several violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 02:34:50 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.
That doesn't mean words=violence. By all means condemn people that verbally encourage violence, but there is a huge divide between ugly words and ugly action.

On a side note, I have seen several violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.

   I agree, but I bet you have not seen any violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.  It is a whole lot more likely you were not there when the words got exchanged (or in the case of the worst violence, some young guys kill each other for shit some old dudes said to one another) or full context was not there, long standing beef where words are sort of long gone.  Point remains, the words come first.  I think the internet and people being soft makes them a bit looser with the violence talk (never having tasted a good dose themselves, or risking getting their heads caved in for saying the wrong thing to the wrong person) and it sort of does just become talk.  The same people will call violence talk a death threat.  Here is where that old pic of spidermen pointing at one another become relevant IMO, one side or the other talked shit, got some back or accused someone of death threats, and now everyone complains about death threats or violent talk leading somewhere.   
   I will say this though, if I have some disagreement over something on a curb, and some dude then says he is going to do something to me involving violence, I will take him at his word.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 02:52:36 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.
That doesn't mean words=violence. By all means condemn people that verbally encourage violence, but there is a huge divide between ugly words and ugly action.

On a side note, I have seen several violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.

   I agree, but I bet you have not seen any violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.  It is a whole lot more likely you were not there when the words got exchanged (or in the case of the worst violence, some young guys kill each other for shit some old dudes said to one another) or full context was not there, long standing beef where words are sort of long gone.  Point remains, the words come first.  I think the internet and people being soft makes them a bit looser with the violence talk (never having tasted a good dose themselves, or risking getting their heads caved in for saying the wrong thing to the wrong person) and it sort of does just become talk.  The same people will call violence talk a death threat.  Here is where that old pic of spidermen pointing at one another become relevant IMO, one side or the other talked shit, got some back or accused someone of death threats, and now everyone complains about death threats or violent talk leading somewhere.   
   I will say this though, if I have some disagreement over something on a curb, and some dude then says he is going to do something to me involving violence, I will take him at his word.
I've worked in corrections (first as a CO, later as a nurse) and in both acute and forensic psych settings. I have seen spontaneous violence without any words being exchanged. I will agree though, that with most people in their right minds, immediate violence without any talk is fairly unusual.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 03:35:48 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.
That doesn't mean words=violence. By all means condemn people that verbally encourage violence, but there is a huge divide between ugly words and ugly action.

On a side note, I have seen several violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.

   I agree, but I bet you have not seen any violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.  It is a whole lot more likely you were not there when the words got exchanged (or in the case of the worst violence, some young guys kill each other for shit some old dudes said to one another) or full context was not there, long standing beef where words are sort of long gone.  Point remains, the words come first.  I think the internet and people being soft makes them a bit looser with the violence talk (never having tasted a good dose themselves, or risking getting their heads caved in for saying the wrong thing to the wrong person) and it sort of does just become talk.  The same people will call violence talk a death threat.  Here is where that old pic of spidermen pointing at one another become relevant IMO, one side or the other talked shit, got some back or accused someone of death threats, and now everyone complains about death threats or violent talk leading somewhere.   
   I will say this though, if I have some disagreement over something on a curb, and some dude then says he is going to do something to me involving violence, I will take him at his word.
I've worked in corrections (first as a CO, later as a nurse) and in both acute and forensic psych settings. I have seen spontaneous violence without any words being exchanged. I will agree though, that with most people in their right minds, immediate violence without any talk is fairly unusual.

  Well, had you said crazy people just fly off and start with violence, I would certainly agree.  My bad, I should have dug on that one. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 03:38:15 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.
That doesn't mean words=violence. By all means condemn people that verbally encourage violence, but there is a huge divide between ugly words and ugly action.

On a side note, I have seen several violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.

   I agree, but I bet you have not seen any violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.  It is a whole lot more likely you were not there when the words got exchanged (or in the case of the worst violence, some young guys kill each other for shit some old dudes said to one another) or full context was not there, long standing beef where words are sort of long gone.  Point remains, the words come first.  I think the internet and people being soft makes them a bit looser with the violence talk (never having tasted a good dose themselves, or risking getting their heads caved in for saying the wrong thing to the wrong person) and it sort of does just become talk.  The same people will call violence talk a death threat.  Here is where that old pic of spidermen pointing at one another become relevant IMO, one side or the other talked shit, got some back or accused someone of death threats, and now everyone complains about death threats or violent talk leading somewhere.   
   I will say this though, if I have some disagreement over something on a curb, and some dude then says he is going to do something to me involving violence, I will take him at his word.
I've worked in corrections (first as a CO, later as a nurse) and in both acute and forensic psych settings. I have seen spontaneous violence without any words being exchanged. I will agree though, that with most people in their right minds, immediate violence without any talk is fairly unusual.

  Well, had you said crazy people just fly off and start with violence, I would certainly agree.  My bad, I should have dug on that one.
On this day, two people agreed on something on an internet forum!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Doc Sammy on August 08, 2021, 04:23:03 PM
America is dead and a corporatist Camelot is skin-riding its corpse.

Welcome to the New Dark Ages. We are like the last pagans of old Rome and now we're in for a future of misery, serfdom, neo-feudalism, and moralist theocracy.

Except this time the fiefdoms are cities instead of rural manors and the theocracy is Marxist/Intersectional Leftist instead of Abrahamic.

The large private corporations are de facto above the law in this country and do all the dirty work of the government.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 08, 2021, 04:45:58 PM
America is dead and a corporatist Camelot is skin-riding its corpse.

Welcome to the New Dark Ages. We are like the last pagans of old Rome and now we're in for a future of misery, serfdom, neo-feudalism, and moralist theocracy.

Except this time the fiefdoms are cities instead of rural manors and the theocracy is Marxist/Intersectional Leftist instead of Abrahamic.

The large private corporations are de facto above the law in this country and do all the dirty work of the government.
But hey, no more mean tweets right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Doc Sammy on August 08, 2021, 04:51:56 PM
America is dead and a corporatist Camelot is skin-riding its corpse.

Welcome to the New Dark Ages. We are like the last pagans of old Rome and now we're in for a future of misery, serfdom, neo-feudalism, and moralist theocracy.

Except this time the fiefdoms are cities instead of rural manors and the theocracy is Marxist/Intersectional Leftist instead of Abrahamic.

The large private corporations are de facto above the law in this country and do all the dirty work of the government.
But hey, no more mean tweets right?

Is there any way one can fight the corporate elites without doing things that could send someone to prison? There has to be some way to fight back legally.

Even Trump was unable to drain the swamp.

It didn't help that his administration was rife with snakes hiding in the grass, the neocons like Bill Barr and puritans like Mike Pence.

The only one who was fully clean was Mike Flynn and the corporate elites made sure to crucify him in a sham trial. Giuliani was clean too, and the media led him down a rabbithole to neutralize him in a more indirect way
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 05:03:46 PM
So, the Spanish Flu came from Spain? Just askin'.

Its called the Spanish Flu because the Spanish were the only ones talking about it, so therefore "Spanish" Flu

Exactly. As neutral they weren't subjected to war censorship and so they were the first to talk about it - especially after their King Alphonse XIII got sick and almost died.

So, since we obsess with precise geographic terms like "Wuhan Flu" or "Kung Flu" it is only fair towards Spain to rename the 1918-1919 pandemic "Kansas Flu" or "AmeriFlu". I'm confident that other posters will see the justice and appropriateness of fixing this historical misunderstanding.

I think it only fair that the place that created the Wuhan Chinese Flu gets to name it.

Why are you wanting to take their credit away from them?

What do you have against China?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 05:19:09 PM
You actually believe that nonsense? Keep eating the anti-vaxxer cookies dumbass, but puking up the misinformation is wrong...and cowardly.

Good luck with all your sick "fully vaccinated" patients a few weeks from now. You're going to need it.
Let's see if you're as bad at predicting the future as your Pillow Prophet.

When the hospitals get over run again then your going to need those pillows.  I mean it has to be this month, or next month for sure this time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 05:33:58 PM
The demand for violence and domination by the vax clowns is a net positive because for many people, it reaffirms our decision to avoid this experimental jab by any means necessary.

And since no long term studies were done on the Chyna vax, nobody knows WTF is going to occur long term. Lots of conjecture on either side, often by "experts", but our very imperfect understanding of the human body is why you never develop drugs at "warp speed".

I am beyond caring anymore. If the vax kills off the vaxxed, so be it. If the next Fauci-funded bioweapon kills off the unvaxxed, so be it.


Is there any way one can fight the corporate elites without doing things that could send someone to prison?

Corporate elites? Stop buying their shit.

Wanna boycott Coke? Here's more than 500 brands they own.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coca-Cola_brands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coca-Cola_brands)

Of course, the boycott will only work if MANY millions of people join you, and only if those people were previously regular customers. AKA, me joining the "boycot" of the NBA/NFL/MBA isn't meaningful since I was never a sports fan.

But even after all the censorship of sane people on social media by Big Tech, we still haven't seen a boom in alt-media. They exist and some are growing (mostly slowly), but most conservatives remained on Facebook and Twitter even after the purges.

As for cutting the political purse strings, there's no way to slow down DC because they've learned how to just print money and use IRS goons to scare and crush taxpayers.


There has to be some way to fight back legally.

Not for long.

You can't vote your way out of any authoritarian state because they will simply change the laws that worked for you.

Last week, the CDC extended the eviction moratorium. That's impossible. Totally illegal as ONLY the legislature can make laws, and that was recently affirmed recently by the Supreme Court against the CDC, but it doesn't matter anymore.

As Maxine Waters tweeted with a laugh, who is going to stop them?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 05:39:20 PM
When the hospitals get over run again then your going to need those pillows.  I mean it has to be this month, or next month for sure this time.

Just like how the word "vaccine" no longer has its real definition, the concept of "hospitals being overrun" has been redefined to having one whiny patient on the floor who disrupts TikTok dance practice.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 05:51:52 PM
 Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 05:53:56 PM
When the hospitals get over run again then your going to need those pillows.  I mean it has to be this month, or next month for sure this time.

Just like how the word "vaccine" no longer has its real definition, the concept of "hospitals being overrun" has been redefined to having one whiny patient on the floor who disrupts TikTok dance practice.
No hospital that I'm aware of uses the term overrun for being over capacity, they only use that term for budgets. But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 05:56:31 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 05:59:19 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Florida, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

I'd suggest that you talk with your mom about the possibility that she use tele health visits if possible (depending on the specialty).

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:01:54 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
I doubt that picture is going to get all that much sympathy from the ultra-conservatives that tend to hover about this board. But how do you feel about those kids in cages?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 06:07:49 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Floroda, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.

  Did you not read what I said?  It was cut from march till late summer.  With a pec tear, you have 30 days essentially to get it fixed for best results.  Once I had gone a couple of months, rehab is surgery can be avoided is the best choice,  it is severe enough that rehab is not going to take.  Right now I am hoping when I get it done it wont be a case of a tendon retracted, otherwise I get to see how creative the surgeon can get using a tendon from by hamstring or the like to fix it.

  As for internet toughguy, you do not know me or a thing about me.   I am not simply talking to sound tough.   I am stating if people decide to make rules that make me feel a little too pushed upon, I will 100 percent react.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:11:51 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Floroda, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.

  Did you not read what I said?  It was cut from march till late summer.  With a pec tear, you have 30 days essentially to get it fixed for best results.  Once I had gone a couple of months, rehab is surgery can be avoided is the best choice,  it is severe enough that rehab is not going to take.  Right now I am hoping when I get it done it wont be a case of a tendon retracted, otherwise I get to see how creative the surgeon can get using a tendon from by hamstring or the like to fix it.

  As for internet toughguy, you do not know me or a thing about me.   I am not simply talking to sound tough.   I am stating if people decide to make rules that make me feel a little too pushed upon, I will 100 percent react.
If your tear was severe enough, you should have had your surgeon push for an exemption. I don't know where you are, but in the USA, most locations still had the option of pushing procedures up so they could bypass the hold. Did you try this?

And as for the rest...

If you're not just talking, then what ya gonna do, bitch?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 06:18:43 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Floroda, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.

  Did you not read what I said?  It was cut from march till late summer.  With a pec tear, you have 30 days essentially to get it fixed for best results.  Once I had gone a couple of months, rehab is surgery can be avoided is the best choice,  it is severe enough that rehab is not going to take.  Right now I am hoping when I get it done it wont be a case of a tendon retracted, otherwise I get to see how creative the surgeon can get using a tendon from by hamstring or the like to fix it.

  As for internet toughguy, you do not know me or a thing about me.   I am not simply talking to sound tough.   I am stating if people decide to make rules that make me feel a little too pushed upon, I will 100 percent react.
If your tear was severe enough, you should have had your surgeon push for an exemption. I don't know where you are, but in the USA, most locations still had the option of pushing procedures up so they could bypass the hold. Did you try this?

And as for the rest...

If you're not just talking, then what ya gonna do, bitch?

    The tear was severe, but not a full detachment.  It was a 2, and at the time given I was avoiding exposure to anything "unnecessary" (because of the mother, who, well died anyway) I went with an attempt at rehab.  It was a pretty serious 2, so there is no rehab on that sucker. 

   What would you have me do?  Hurt people for talking about trying to make people do things?  I can hurt people anytime the mood hits me (which it does not, as I am not crazy) even with busted wing.  It would take more for me to rationalize serious damage, but it sure does look like there is always more coming.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:22:48 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Floroda, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.

  Did you not read what I said?  It was cut from march till late summer.  With a pec tear, you have 30 days essentially to get it fixed for best results.  Once I had gone a couple of months, rehab is surgery can be avoided is the best choice,  it is severe enough that rehab is not going to take.  Right now I am hoping when I get it done it wont be a case of a tendon retracted, otherwise I get to see how creative the surgeon can get using a tendon from by hamstring or the like to fix it.

  As for internet toughguy, you do not know me or a thing about me.   I am not simply talking to sound tough.   I am stating if people decide to make rules that make me feel a little too pushed upon, I will 100 percent react.
If your tear was severe enough, you should have had your surgeon push for an exemption. I don't know where you are, but in the USA, most locations still had the option of pushing procedures up so they could bypass the hold. Did you try this?

And as for the rest...

If you're not just talking, then what ya gonna do, bitch?

    The tear was severe, but not a full detachment.  It was a 2, and at the time given I was avoiding exposure to anything "unnecessary" (because of the mother, who, well died anyway) I went with an attempt at rehab.  It was a pretty serious 2, so there is no rehab on that sucker. 

   What would you have me do?  Hurt people for talking about trying to make people do things?  I can hurt people anytime the mood hits me (which it does not, as I am not crazy) even with busted wing.  It would take more for me to rationalize serious damage, but it sure does look like there is always more coming.
No, I wouldn't have you use violence. That's exactly my point. Better to not even threaten/suggest violence, because it does nothing positive for this kind of situation. It's also totally silly to suggest violence on an internet board where it comes off as a roar of impotence.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 06:24:52 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
I doubt that picture is going to get all that much sympathy from the ultra-conservatives that tend to hover about this board. But how do you feel about those kids in cages?

You dont think the government locking kids in cages is reprehensible then?

Maybe they deserved it?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 06:30:56 PM
But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.

"Exceeding operating capacity" would involve full parking lots.

Like when that happened when my dad was in ICU in 2018 and they were shuffling patients between floors and nearby hospitals who had empty beds because of the sudden huge influx of patients. Parking lots were full, especially the staff lot.

Sorry bitch, your shamdemic is done. All you got left are the retarded sheep.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:31:43 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
I doubt that picture is going to get all that much sympathy from the ultra-conservatives that tend to hover about this board. But how do you feel about those kids in cages?

You dont think the government locking kids in cages is reprehensible then?

Maybe they deserved it?
Is that how you feel, that they deserved it?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:34:32 PM
But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.

"Exceeding operating capacity" would involve full parking lots.

Like when that happened when my dad was in ICU in 2018 and they were shuffling patients between floors and nearby hospitals who had empty beds because of the sudden huge influx of patients. Parking lots were full, especially the staff lot.

Sorry bitch, your shamdemic is done. All you got left are the retarded sheep.
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 06:41:14 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Floroda, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.

  Did you not read what I said?  It was cut from march till late summer.  With a pec tear, you have 30 days essentially to get it fixed for best results.  Once I had gone a couple of months, rehab is surgery can be avoided is the best choice,  it is severe enough that rehab is not going to take.  Right now I am hoping when I get it done it wont be a case of a tendon retracted, otherwise I get to see how creative the surgeon can get using a tendon from by hamstring or the like to fix it.

  As for internet toughguy, you do not know me or a thing about me.   I am not simply talking to sound tough.   I am stating if people decide to make rules that make me feel a little too pushed upon, I will 100 percent react.
If your tear was severe enough, you should have had your surgeon push for an exemption. I don't know where you are, but in the USA, most locations still had the option of pushing procedures up so they could bypass the hold. Did you try this?

And as for the rest...

If you're not just talking, then what ya gonna do, bitch?

    The tear was severe, but not a full detachment.  It was a 2, and at the time given I was avoiding exposure to anything "unnecessary" (because of the mother, who, well died anyway) I went with an attempt at rehab.  It was a pretty serious 2, so there is no rehab on that sucker. 

   What would you have me do?  Hurt people for talking about trying to make people do things?  I can hurt people anytime the mood hits me (which it does not, as I am not crazy) even with busted wing.  It would take more for me to rationalize serious damage, but it sure does look like there is always more coming.
No, I wouldn't have you use violence. That's exactly my point. Better to not even threaten/suggest violence, because it does nothing positive for this kind of situation. It's also totally silly to suggest violence on an internet board where it comes off as a roar of impotence.

  I am not looking to come off any particular way.  I am not threatening.  I am just stating fact regarding if A goes on, well B is coming.  It is the primary reason my current plan, as to what I prefer to do, is move out of the country.  I rather not be pissed with people who are for the most part faceless and that I can not put my arm around their neck.   If there is a roar, I would suggest frustration, coming from a person a little fed up with destruction of small business (which I ran), having a parent die due to some of the mixed messaging, and who has kids who have to grow up with some retarded trash coming from people who are supposed to be leaders.   That said, I am sure talk is in fact quite cheap on the internet.  I however, never say anything I do not mean on the internet, or in a way I would not say to a person in conversation. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 06:42:10 PM
You dont think the government locking kids in cages is reprehensible then?

NO.

This is an invading army and the kids are weapons. Demographic replacement is real and 1M (or more) useless 3rd worlders are being shovelled into our nation this year alone since we no longer have a southern border.

Also, separating the adults from the kids was necessary even when we had a border because of the number of human traffickers AND the number of minors who were raped by coyotes and fellow illegals.

Nobody likes to talk about it, but lots of those burritos are going to become sex slaves in US cities.

Maybe they deserved it?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Unfortunately, the kids always suffer because of the parents' bad choices.

But incentivizing illegal immigration always results in more harm.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 06:45:43 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
I doubt that picture is going to get all that much sympathy from the ultra-conservatives that tend to hover about this board. But how do you feel about those kids in cages?

You dont think the government locking kids in cages is reprehensible then?

Maybe they deserved it?
Is that how you feel, that they deserved it?

I guess living in Florida just spoils you in regards to not seeing governmental abuse.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:48:43 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
I doubt that picture is going to get all that much sympathy from the ultra-conservatives that tend to hover about this board. But how do you feel about those kids in cages?

You dont think the government locking kids in cages is reprehensible then?

Maybe they deserved it?
Is that how you feel, that they deserved it?

I guess living in Florida just spoils you in regards to not seeing governmental abuse.
What makes you think it's any different from your situation?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 06:50:37 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:53:10 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?
Dumbass, I just explained that the parking lots likely look like night shift because, much like with night shift, non-essential personnel are not there.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 06:53:53 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?

   Seems like a good time to release Captain Tripps and go ahead and get it all over with.   A lethal pandemic at this point would do far more damage than it could have a couple years ago, since "leaders" have fucked themselves over at every turn with regard to having any credibility at all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 07:39:53 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?

   Seems like a good time to release Captain Tripps and go ahead and get it all over with.   A lethal pandemic at this point would do far more damage than it could have a couple years ago, since "leaders" have fucked themselves over at every turn with regard to having any credibility at all.
That credibility didn't just evaporate on its own.. Let's not forget to credit the numerous conspiracy theorists that the internet has allowed to thrive.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 07:44:41 PM
What makes you think it's any different from your situation?

My Government is merely incompetent rather then reprehensible.

I mean not pants shitting dementia incompetent but you know.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 08:51:13 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?

   Seems like a good time to release Captain Tripps and go ahead and get it all over with.   A lethal pandemic at this point would do far more damage than it could have a couple years ago, since "leaders" have fucked themselves over at every turn with regard to having any credibility at all.
That credibility didn't just evaporate on its own.. Let's not forget to credit the numerous conspiracy theorists that the internet has allowed to thrive.

      Yeah, it was the internet.  That was what did it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 09:43:12 PM
That credibility didn't just evaporate on its own.. Let's not forget to credit the numerous conspiracy theorists that the internet has allowed to thrive.
It wasn't things like representatives of the government claiming they didn't fund gain of function at the Wuhan lab when they did?

Good to know.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 09:54:32 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?

   Seems like a good time to release Captain Tripps and go ahead and get it all over with.   A lethal pandemic at this point would do far more damage than it could have a couple years ago, since "leaders" have fucked themselves over at every turn with regard to having any credibility at all.
That credibility didn't just evaporate on its own.. Let's not forget to credit the numerous conspiracy theorists that the internet has allowed to thrive.

      Yeah, it was the internet.  That was what did it.
Of course.  It's not like the "experts" first said that masking wasn't needed for normal people.  Then told us that we'd only need to lock-down for 15 days to flatten the curve.  Then decided that we did need masks, even outdoors.  Then told us that there were no therapeutics that could work, despite the fact that other medical professionals disagreed.  Then told us that vaccines were developed that would return life to normal, if we'd only get them immediately, with no passports (that would be too totalitarian).  Then told us that after vaccination, we wouldn't need masks.  Then told us that, even after getting vaccinated, we'd have to wear masks.  Oh, and the vaccines didn't prevent illness, just lessened it.  Oh, and we might need to lockdown again.  And show our proof of vaccine in order to do anything.

And, most importantly, they said all of the above with the certainty of the Pope, and silenced anyone who disagreed with them.  If you dared suggest the virus might have been a lab leak, you were silenced on every platform.  Until, a year ago, when suddenly it was possible it was a lab leak.  The sheer certainty of every pronouncement, followed by the same certainty when the next one contradicts the first.  If the "experts" had have talked in terms of uncertainty, what they knew, guessed, and didn't know, maybe people would react differently.  But there was never a "we think this, but we could be wrong.  We don't know that."  It was "This is what you need to do or you'll kill us all!  Now do the opposite, or you'll kill us all!"  Yeah, but it was internet conspiracies that destroyed the credibility of the "experts"...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 08, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
When does the pandemic end?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 09, 2021, 12:04:40 AM
When does the pandemic end?

The real pandemic was the friends we made along the way.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2021, 12:45:15 AM
T.L;D.R : Hypothesis > Tests (if proven correct then) > Law > Theory

Or put in math terms: Theory > Law > Hypothesis
1 > 0
0 < 1
Can't both be correct.

Maybe because they aren't the same?

Which is why I say to put it in math terms?

First I'm stating in which order things occur

Then I'm stating which thing is greater than which other thing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Doc Sammy on August 09, 2021, 01:04:53 AM
When does the pandemic end?

It will never end.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 09, 2021, 06:50:08 AM
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." --H.L. Mencken
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 09, 2021, 07:02:47 AM
When does the pandemic end?

It will never end.
It will end on a Tuesday. Still not sure which Tuesday.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 09, 2021, 10:52:24 AM
When does the pandemic end?

The only off-ramp leads to Sweden, but the people in the driver's seat keep doubling down on ineffective bullshit because they're so deep in it they can't admit they destroyed the world economy and ruined billions of lives making things worse.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2021, 12:12:31 PM
I wonder why more and more people don't trust the corporate media and the sophisticated elites on anything.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 09, 2021, 12:12:43 PM
Just remember, you proles need to mask up, while your noble betters get to party.

Serfdom ahoy, but hey, no more mean tweets, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 09, 2021, 12:22:29 PM
When does the pandemic end?

Today I spoke with a friend that is a Chief Nurse in one of the most important hospitals here in Milan.

Please, take the following as hearsay.

All started when I told her that my dentist has the third shot already booked. She told me that she, too, has her third shot already booked. This September the managers will reveal the precise date, but the third shot for doctors and nurses is a sure thing.

They are already planning the fourth shot. This is not a sure thing, but they want to have plans already in place should a fourth shot become necessary.

Lessons learned thus far: the World's economy cannot sustain anymore damage to the most profitable months: June-August and December. There always will be reopenings, the Covid cases will climb, if dangerous variants appear --> new shot.

Most of the bigwigs (in her hospital, to be clear) agree that this "dance" will go on until 2025. We will get out of the woods, and maybe sooner, but not this year or next year.

Communication from the top has been terrible in her hospital - even worse with the public. Yet, if people have enough and stop listening it will be a disaster, but if this happens only the "experts in communications" will be the ones to blame.

She finally cheered me up by confirming that her Covid ward is already filling again. Since she did a "three months" tour of duty, internal rules mandate that she is to be assigned elsewhere for at least nine months. There are already rumbles that these rules will not be respected.

Again, to be clear, these are the words of my friend. I paraphrased a bit but this is what she said.

As soon as I can I'll call my distant cousin in Florida. She is a bigwig, even if in another field. I wonder what she will have to say.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 09, 2021, 12:41:45 PM
When does the pandemic end?

Today I spoke with a friend that is a Chief Nurse in one of the most important hospitals here in Milan.

Please, take the following as hearsay.

All started when I told her that my dentist has the third shot already booked. She told me that she, too, has her third shot already booked. This September the managers will reveal the precise date, but the third shot for doctors and nurses is a sure thing.

They are already planning the fourth shot. This is not a sure thing, but they want to have plans already in place should a fourth shot become necessary.

Lessons learned thus far: the World's economy cannot sustain anymore damage to the most profitable months: June-August and December. There always will be reopenings, the Covid cases will climb, if dangerous variants appear --> new shot.

Most of the bigwigs (in her hospital, to be clear) agree that this "dance" will go on until 2025. We will get out of the woods, and maybe sooner, but not this year or next year.

Communication from the top has been terrible in her hospital - even worse with the public. Yet, if people have enough and stop listening it will be a disaster, but if this happens only the "experts in communications" will be the ones to blame.

She finally cheered me up by confirming that her Covid ward is already filling again. Since she did a "three months" tour of duty, internal rules mandate that she is to be assigned elsewhere for at least nine months. There are already rumbles that these rules will not be respected.

Again, to be clear, these are the words of my friend. I paraphrased a bit but this is what she said.

As soon as I can I'll call my distant cousin in Florida. She is a bigwig, even if in another field. I wonder what she will have to say.
Interesting to hear that they plan on rotating personnel that work on Covid wards. Also interesting to hear that she believes it won't happen. Around here, there's no plans to rotate personnel (excepting travelers, but those are mostly funneled into the least desirable units in exchange for big pay). The rotating out plans don't work because anyone that's facing being rotated in just resigns and takes a higher-paying travel gig (more $ for the same shit) and so they don't push them to rotate. Besides that, the time to retrain personnel for PCU & ICU level bedside when they've been working in things like OR, pediatrics, or OB isn't worth it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2021, 03:07:15 PM
Well, at least you're not the UK

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 09, 2021, 03:08:27 PM
When does the pandemic end?

It will never end.
It will end on a Tuesday. Still not sure which Tuesday.

   Doubtful, Friday is always the best day for a firing.  Gives the pandemic the weekend to cool off. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 09, 2021, 03:37:29 PM
When does the pandemic end?

It will never end.
It will end on a Tuesday. Still not sure which Tuesday.

   Doubtful, Friday is always the best day for a firing.  Gives the pandemic the weekend to cool off.
Fake news! It was/will be Tuesday forever!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 09, 2021, 03:58:48 PM
But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.

It certainly was in the UK since they stopped doing everything else bar "treating" covid. Even though many hospitals spent months sitting idle doing nothing at all.

We now have a backlog of 14 million people waiting for treatment thanks to months of doing fuck all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 09, 2021, 04:40:03 PM
Whoops, Israel is one of the most vaccinated countries in the world, infections are raging out of control: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cdc-israel-covid-risk-b1899691.html

If only they had access to cheap, safe, generic treatments which brought infection under control in India...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 09, 2021, 04:54:45 PM
Lessons learned thus far: the World's economy cannot sustain anymore damage to the most profitable months: June-August and December. There always will be reopenings, the Covid cases will climb, if dangerous variants appear --> new shot.
I imagine that's even worse in Italy, since you haven't recovered from 2008. The US economy has problems, but is in a much stronger position.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 09, 2021, 05:22:21 PM
But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.

It certainly was in the UK since they stopped doing everything else bar "treating" covid. Even though many hospitals spent months sitting idle doing nothing at all.

We now have a backlog of 14 million people waiting for treatment thanks to months of doing fuck all.
Do you have an article that discusses the UK's Covid response (as objectively as possible)? Serious question; I'm not fucking with you this time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 09, 2021, 05:40:03 PM
Lessons learned thus far: the World's economy cannot sustain anymore damage to the most profitable months: June-August and December. There always will be reopenings, the Covid cases will climb, if dangerous variants appear --> new shot.
I imagine that's even worse in Italy, since you haven't recovered from 2008. The US economy has problems, but is in a much stronger position.

According to a friend of mine who manages private investments for a big bank, the Covid is a blessing in disguise because the measures taken by the EU will, as a side effect, delay the reckoning with our national debt. I was unable to follow his reasoning because my understanding of economy has always been sketchy. Factually, my generation should be the last still in the clear but the next one is basically fucked.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 09, 2021, 05:43:19 PM
But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.

It certainly was in the UK since they stopped doing everything else bar "treating" covid. Even though many hospitals spent months sitting idle doing nothing at all.

We now have a backlog of 14 million people waiting for treatment thanks to months of doing fuck all.
Do you have an article that discusses the UK's Covid response (as objectively as possible)? Serious question; I'm not fucking with you this time.

(https://filmsdeconstructed.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/charlie-brown-lucy-moves-the-football-again.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on August 09, 2021, 06:20:19 PM
For you to be able to offend me I would need to care about your opinion, I don't, you're just another NPC.
It's great that we agree that neithet of us give a shit about what the other thinks. Well now, that's one thing we got.
What about Breakfast at Tiffany's?
=)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 09, 2021, 07:51:19 PM
Lessons learned thus far: the World's economy cannot sustain anymore damage to the most profitable months: June-August and December. There always will be reopenings, the Covid cases will climb, if dangerous variants appear --> new shot.
I imagine that's even worse in Italy, since you haven't recovered from 2008. The US economy has problems, but is in a much stronger position.

According to a friend of mine who manages private investments for a big bank, the Covid is a blessing in disguise because the measures taken by the EU will, as a side effect, delay the reckoning with our national debt. I was unable to follow his reasoning because my understanding of economy has always been sketchy. Factually, my generation should be the last still in the clear but the next one is basically fucked.
I haven't really been following the EU's monetary policy, but I can probably guess the basic reason. In the US, the Fed has been doing everything it can to keep interest rates low. Ostensibly, this is to help the economy and lower the unemployment rate via Keynesian magic, but at this point the real reason might as well be to keep the cost of servicing the national debt low. The US is paying about half a trillion dollars in interest a year on $28 trillion in debt, but that's only because interest rates are close to zero. If interest rate ever rose back to normal, the interest payments could easily eclipse the entire federal budget. Italy has a pretty spectacular debt, so they have the same concern. But while the US prints money to buy up assets, and that continual pump of money into the capital sector is what keeps interest rates low, Italy doesn't have that option. The US is a monetary sovereign, and can print all the money they want. But Italy gave up that power to the EU, when they adopted the Euro. So anything that encourages the EU to keep interest rates low benefits Italy and helps stave off the debt crisis, because it keeps the service costs on Italy's national debt manageable. There are probably some subtleties I'm missing, but that should be the basic outline.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 09, 2021, 08:33:28 PM
"Look guys, in order to sustain bio-surveillance tyranny and enrich tech & pharmaceutical billionaires keep yourself safe you are going to have to get five shots (https://humansarefree.com/2021/08/five-vaccine-doses-to-qualify-as-fully-vaccinated.html)."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 09, 2021, 09:08:01 PM
"Look guys, in order to sustain bio-surveillance tyranny and enrich tech & pharmaceutical billionaires keep yourself safe you are going to have to get five shots (https://humansarefree.com/2021/08/five-vaccine-doses-to-qualify-as-fully-vaccinated.html)."

 ;D I'm waiting until IV drips of the vaccines are mandatory.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 09, 2021, 10:05:40 PM
Another factor is this: when the polio and measles vaccines came out decades ago there was an entirely different mindset. Yes those companies were out to make money, but they also did want to help people along the way. This is why those vaccines were effective: they were tested thoroughly and were made as safe as possible back then.

But now? The media, which is like one endless Big Pharma infomercial, hypes up the danger from this disease- yes it is dangerous but look up how many people were dying of "regular" flu, how many die from prescription drugs, and how many die in hospitals due to negligence- and ask yourself what if any of that had been given as much non-stop attention from media and government?- then sells people on vaccines that were rushed out, did not even get proper FDA approval (for what that's worth these days); the only absolutely sure vaccination seems to be that people cannot sue the drug companies no matter what happens- gee, THAT sure makes one confident about it all, doesn't it?

What's more, how many of these vaccines are made overseas? No problem there, right?

Years ago, on a site called "Return of Kings," someone commented that with the way our government is now if ever anything serious ever happens they will prove to be incompetent to say the least- and he was right. The way this mess was handled was disgraceful.

But a more chilling aspect is obvious: many people get this vaccine because they want government and the like off their backs. They want things to return to "normal," or at least as normal as it can be in this inverted society. They will be told this isn't going to happen because of those people who aren't vaccinated. Guess what happens then?

I'm also tired of the prattle about "herd immunity." This can only occur if you have sufficient numbers of immune individuals, but the way they are talking this vaccine is like bulletproof armor that doesn't work if the guy next to you isn't wearing any. This disease will ALWAYS be around according to the "experts" and such, so what good is a vaccine if it does not simply protect YOU?

Did you ever wonder why junk mail wasn't stopped for a time? If this disease was as contagious as they had originally said then one good way to block its spread was by blocking junk mail. I've worked these kind of jobs and trust me- they do NOT follow sanitary procedures.     

But the main thing is how mentalities have changed. The fact that "Brave New World" is not so shocking as it was even when I was young, and the outright greed of the corporations behind the vaccines, have only shown how far down Western society has fallen. It is very depressing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 09, 2021, 10:27:56 PM
I’m not too concerned about how many booster shots people will need to take. If anything, the new tech could even help fight off cancerous cells or whatever they program into it. Enough people already took it to deem it safe. I’m just curious on why and how long it will take for full approval.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 09, 2021, 10:44:07 PM
It is impossible at this point to say it is safe- there simply has been no time to determine any long-range problems, or even how long it's good for.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 09, 2021, 11:35:20 PM
Pfizer's study that was supposed to be 6 months was actually only 4 months, since at the 4 month mark in both the vaccinated & placebo cohort they offloaded about 90% of the trial participants. Detailed analysis (https://junkcharts.typepad.com/numbersruleyourworld/2021/08/how-to-count-the-fare-after-letting-most-passengers-leave-the-train.html).

Safety data that we have on the vaccines is already incredibly poor due to high censorship environment and little-to-no interest by drug manufacturers in actually figuring out why tens of thousands of people have died. Moderna alone has over 300,000 reports of vaccine injury that it's failed to report to VAERS. There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match vax approaches that many people are now suggesting. It's actually criminal to suggest unproven approaches with extremely high rate of negative reaction compared to well-known and well-tolerated existing drugs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 09, 2021, 11:45:46 PM
del
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 10, 2021, 07:55:19 AM
There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match

I know the term emergency use, may sound like a leap of faith into the unknown. However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility. As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 10, 2021, 08:19:54 AM
However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility.
Do you have any actual argument against their credibility, or are you just latching onto the quirky name of the blog in an attempt to discredit something you don't like?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 10, 2021, 08:22:27 AM
I’m not too concerned about how many booster shots people will need to take. If anything, the new tech could even help fight off cancerous cells or whatever they program into it. Enough people already took it to deem it safe. I’m just curious on why and how long it will take for full approval.

   My wife works in clinical trial research... what you say about enough people is simply not how safety is determined.   There has been no study on long term effects.   It could be safe (as safe as vaccines can be) or it could have long term issues.  Seems we are now getting some odd signals from media and powers that be that the vaccinated can act as super spreaders.   Strange that people vaccinated for polio are never, ever spreading it around.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 10, 2021, 08:48:31 AM
For you to be able to offend me I would need to care about your opinion, I don't, you're just another NPC.
It's great that we agree that neithet of us give a shit about what the other thinks. Well now, that's one thing we got.
What about Breakfast at Tiffany's?
=)
Hey I think I remember that film! :)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 10:37:04 AM
There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match

I know the term emergency use, may sound like a leap of faith into the unknown. However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility. As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.

All of the data is directly from Pfizer. The author of the blog is Kaiser Fung (http://www.kaiserfung.com/about), which should be obvious from the books he prominently displays. His analysis isn't even drawing any conclusions, just critiquing the study and the messiness of the data. But you're right, why would you listen to a statistical expert when analyzing statistical data.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 10, 2021, 10:48:06 AM
I’m not too concerned about how many booster shots people will need to take. If anything, the new tech could even help fight off cancerous cells or whatever they program into it. Enough people already took it to deem it safe. I’m just curious on why and how long it will take for full approval.

   My wife works in clinical trial research... what you say about enough people is simply not how safety is determined.   There has been no study on long term effects.   It could be safe (as safe as vaccines can be) or it could have long term issues.  Seems we are now getting some odd signals from media and powers that be that the vaccinated can act as super spreaders.   Strange that people vaccinated for polio are never, ever spreading it around.

You know the vaccine supposedly doesn’t contain the actual virus, right? I’m no expert in the way these new vax are manufactured but unlike Covid, the odds of serious complications are at the bare minimum. Like, you really gotta hit the unlucky lottery. Still, your body your choice. Do what you feel comfortable with. The fact 50% of the nation is already vaccinated aught speak for itself.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 10, 2021, 10:51:45 AM
There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match

I know the term emergency use, may sound like a leap of faith into the unknown. However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility. As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.

All of the data is directly from Pfizer. The author of the blog is Kaiser Fung (http://www.kaiserfung.com/about), which should be obvious from the books he prominently displays. His analysis isn't even drawing any conclusions, just critiquing the study and the messiness of the data. But you're right, why would you listen to a statistical expert when analyzing statistical data.

The word ‘expert’ aught be reevaluated during this day and time. I listen to everyone then make my own conclusions. Expert, is being thrown around as lightly as game designer on rpggeek. If everyone is, than expertise isn’t a thing but a state of mind.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 10, 2021, 11:02:15 AM
There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match

I know the term emergency use, may sound like a leap of faith into the unknown. However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility. As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.

All of the data is directly from Pfizer. The author of the blog is Kaiser Fung (http://www.kaiserfung.com/about), which should be obvious from the books he prominently displays. His analysis isn't even drawing any conclusions, just critiquing the study and the messiness of the data. But you're right, why would you listen to a statistical expert when analyzing statistical data.

The word ‘expert’ aught be reevaluated during this day and time. I listen to everyone then make my own conclusions. Expert, is being thrown around as lightly as game designer on rpggeek. If everyone is, than expertise isn’t a thing but a state of mind.
He has advanced degrees from Ivy League schools, has held leadership positions in multiple businesses, has written books, speaks at conferences, teaches at Columbia and NYU, and all of those are directly related to the subject he's addressing in the blog.

At least that answers my question from earlier. You've decided what you believe, and you're looking for anything to discredit anyone who says anything that contradicts your preexisting beliefs, even if your objections make no sense whatsoever.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 10, 2021, 11:23:50 AM
There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match

I know the term emergency use, may sound like a leap of faith into the unknown. However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility. As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.

All of the data is directly from Pfizer. The author of the blog is Kaiser Fung (http://www.kaiserfung.com/about), which should be obvious from the books he prominently displays. His analysis isn't even drawing any conclusions, just critiquing the study and the messiness of the data. But you're right, why would you listen to a statistical expert when analyzing statistical data.

The word ‘expert’ aught be reevaluated during this day and time. I listen to everyone then make my own conclusions. Expert, is being thrown around as lightly as game designer on rpggeek. If everyone is, than expertise isn’t a thing but a state of mind.

At least that answers my question from earlier. You've decided what you believe, and you're looking for anything to discredit anyone who says anything that contradicts your preexisting beliefs, even if your objections make no sense whatsoever.

Hmm, no. What I’m doing is questioning the facts. E.g. I’ve stated 50% of the US populace are now fully vaccinated, according to the public data. That’s easy to confirm by doing a simple google search. Now, some of the counter arguments I’ve received are mostly pointing to shoddy sources. I’d much rather listen to actual science, not experts.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on August 10, 2021, 11:54:46 AM
As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.

You get no choice where I am.  If you go they jab you with what you have and when they invite you back for round 2 they just jab you with whatever else is at hand.

The government took less than a month to make this decision based on "studies" that were not linked in the article at the state news website.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 10, 2021, 12:44:05 PM
I’m not too concerned about how many booster shots people will need to take. If anything, the new tech could even help fight off cancerous cells or whatever they program into it. Enough people already took it to deem it safe. I’m just curious on why and how long it will take for full approval.

   My wife works in clinical trial research... what you say about enough people is simply not how safety is determined.   There has been no study on long term effects.   It could be safe (as safe as vaccines can be) or it could have long term issues.  Seems we are now getting some odd signals from media and powers that be that the vaccinated can act as super spreaders.   Strange that people vaccinated for polio are never, ever spreading it around.

You know the vaccine supposedly doesn’t contain the actual virus, right? I’m no expert in the way these new vax are manufactured but unlike Covid, the odds of serious complications are at the bare minimum. Like, you really gotta hit the unlucky lottery. Still, your body your choice. Do what you feel comfortable with. The fact 50% of the nation is already vaccinated aught speak for itself.

I'm not following you. What does 50% of the nation being vaccinated speak of?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 12:48:30 PM
Hmm, no. What I’m doing is questioning the facts. E.g. I’ve stated 50% of the US populace are now fully vaccinated, according to the public data. That’s easy to confirm by doing a simple google search. Now, some of the counter arguments I’ve received are mostly pointing to shoddy sources. I’d much rather listen to actual science, not experts.

I'd be curious to hear how you feel that your behavior constitutes questioning facts.

Pfizer data is a primary data set on safety and efficacy. The point of analyzing this data set demonstrates that the data that Pfizer is using to support its claims (e.g. safe and effective) is actually quite shoddy.

Percentage of the population receiving a vaccination tells literally nothing about safety or efficacy, because there is no one tracking that data.

What do you think "actual science" is?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 10, 2021, 01:32:13 PM
Hmm, no. What I’m doing is questioning the facts. E.g. I’ve stated 50% of the US populace are now fully vaccinated, according to the public data. That’s easy to confirm by doing a simple google search. Now, some of the counter arguments I’ve received are mostly pointing to shoddy sources. I’d much rather listen to actual science, not experts.

Percentage of the population receiving a vaccination tells literally nothing about safety or efficacy, because there is no one tracking that data.


Comments like these… Fake News!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 01:57:25 PM
Comments like these… Fake News!

Nothing I've seen suggests there's any kind of systematic effort to track adverse events or vaccine efficacy over ~150 million people. If you want to dispute the claim, then you're free to provide some evidence.

[Ed.] To avoid veering off into non-sequitur land, lets bring it back to the original issue.

The Pfizer data is the highest quality trial data that we have on long-term efficacy and safety. There is no better data set, so we naturally should analyze that data and scrutinize the methodology and conclusions drawn from it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 10, 2021, 02:55:28 PM
I’m not too concerned about how many booster shots people will need to take. If anything, the new tech could even help fight off cancerous cells or whatever they program into it. Enough people already took it to deem it safe. I’m just curious on why and how long it will take for full approval.

   My wife works in clinical trial research... what you say about enough people is simply not how safety is determined.   There has been no study on long term effects.   It could be safe (as safe as vaccines can be) or it could have long term issues.  Seems we are now getting some odd signals from media and powers that be that the vaccinated can act as super spreaders.   Strange that people vaccinated for polio are never, ever spreading it around.

You know the vaccine supposedly doesn’t contain the actual virus, right? I’m no expert in the way these new vax are manufactured but unlike Covid, the odds of serious complications are at the bare minimum. Like, you really gotta hit the unlucky lottery. Still, your body your choice. Do what you feel comfortable with. The fact 50% of the nation is already vaccinated aught speak for itself.

  Oh it speaks for itself.   I think you have completely missed understanding what I said as well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 10, 2021, 03:51:08 PM
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/coronavirus-antibodies-detected-us-wild-deer-180978366/

"Researchers are concerned with infections occurring in the wild because of the virus's ability to mutate and jump from one species to another, which could create a reservoir for the virus to mutate and infect humans, the New York Times reports."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 10, 2021, 04:40:06 PM
At least that answers my question from earlier. You've decided what you believe, and you're looking for anything to discredit anyone who says anything that contradicts your preexisting beliefs, even if your objections make no sense whatsoever.

Pat you have met people before, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 05:20:19 PM
One of the more concerning things that I've started hearing about is that at least some hospitals in California are instructing staff to refuse to provide appropriate care for unvaccinated patients. A variety of interventions such as vitamins C&D, monoclonal antibodies, et al, can assist patients who are already infected & suffering severe symptoms. Such a policy would of course be highly relevant to contextualizing data about hospitalizations, ICU & deaths, particularly given that the overall numbers we're now seeing are so small.

For example, Oregon misclassified 5 deaths among fully vaccinated people as belonging to "unvaccinated" during the past month, which was a doubling in the number of vaccinated deaths, and ~18% of the total monthly figure. There is a very perverse set of incentives at play such that pressure being applied to provide a lower standard of care to even a few patients makes a big difference in the media-driven fear machine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 10, 2021, 09:41:01 PM
Interesting news story- someone (vaccinated) went to a party, a total of fourteen people- all vaccinated, up-to-date, etc.

Eleven of those people ended up with Covid-19. Do the math.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 10:30:54 PM
Interesting news story- someone (vaccinated) went to a party, a total of fourteen people- all vaccinated, up-to-date, etc.

Eleven of those people ended up with Covid-19. Do the math.

I've heard of this one, but it's a bit old if this is the AZ party with healthcare workers. More pertinent was the cruise ship with all vaccinated staff & passengers suffering an outbreak.

Zooming out a bit further, the focus on "infections" generally is pointless. The immune system isn't purposed to keep you from ever having pathogens in your body. The media likes this metric since it justifies endless fear-porn, but we've seen a substantial decoupling of "infections" from deaths over the past year. It'd be nice if we could get more sober analysis

Interestingly enough, the decoupling itself isn't solely (as commonly suggested) due to prevalence of vaccines since the decoupling effect occurred before widespread vaccination (>10% in some cases). It's not really clear what the mechanisms at play are, although we can guess that it's a mixture of survivorship, prior infection, and seasonal effects.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 11, 2021, 04:48:51 AM
One of the more concerning things that I've started hearing about is that at least some hospitals in California are instructing staff to refuse to provide appropriate care for unvaccinated patients. A variety of interventions such as vitamins C&D, monoclonal antibodies, et al, can assist patients who are already infected & suffering severe symptoms. Such a policy would of course be highly relevant to contextualizing data about hospitalizations, ICU & deaths, particularly given that the overall numbers we're now seeing are so small.

For example, Oregon misclassified 5 deaths among fully vaccinated people as belonging to "unvaccinated" during the past month, which was a doubling in the number of vaccinated deaths, and ~18% of the total monthly figure. There is a very perverse set of incentives at play such that pressure being applied to provide a lower standard of care to even a few patients makes a big difference in the media-driven fear machine.
Can you provide a reliable source on your "California doctors & nurses instructed to withhold care for unvaccinated" rumor, or are you just talking out of your ass?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2021, 11:03:24 AM
One of the more concerning things that I've started hearing about is that at least some hospitals in California are instructing staff to refuse to provide appropriate care for unvaccinated patients. A variety of interventions such as vitamins C&D, monoclonal antibodies, et al, can assist patients who are already infected & suffering severe symptoms. Such a policy would of course be highly relevant to contextualizing data about hospitalizations, ICU & deaths, particularly given that the overall numbers we're now seeing are so small.

For example, Oregon misclassified 5 deaths among fully vaccinated people as belonging to "unvaccinated" during the past month, which was a doubling in the number of vaccinated deaths, and ~18% of the total monthly figure. There is a very perverse set of incentives at play such that pressure being applied to provide a lower standard of care to even a few patients makes a big difference in the media-driven fear machine.
Can you provide a reliable source on your "California doctors & nurses instructed to withhold care for unvaccinated" rumor, or are you just talking out of your ass?

Well, you see, he could but you haven't the security clearance, so like with your BS unsubstantiated claims you'll just have to trust him.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 11, 2021, 11:12:49 AM
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The shielding approach aims to reduce the number of severe COVID-19 cases by limiting contact between individuals at higher risk of developing severe disease (“high-risk”) and the general population (“low-risk”). High-risk individuals would be temporarily relocated to safe or “green zones” established at the household, neighborhood, camp/sector or community level depending on the context and setting. They would have minimal contact with family members and other low-risk residents.

Current evidence indicates that older adults and people of any age who have serious underlying medical conditions are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19. In most humanitarian settings, older population groups make up a small percentage of the total population. For this reason, the shielding approach suggests physically separating high-risk individuals from the general population to prioritize the use of the limited available resources and avoid implementing long-term containment measures among the general population.

In theory, shielding may serve its objective to protect high-risk populations from disease and death. However, implementation of the approach necessitates strict adherence to protocol. Inadvertent introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission among the most vulnerable populations the approach is trying to protect.

A summary of the shielding approach described by Favas is shown in Table 1. See Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in low-resource, displaced and camp and camp-like settings, for full details."

What the fuck is this? Are we going to relitigate Korematsu and the Japanese internment all over again, except with 'vulnerable persons'?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2021, 11:43:17 AM
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The shielding approach aims to reduce the number of severe COVID-19 cases by limiting contact between individuals at higher risk of developing severe disease (“high-risk”) and the general population (“low-risk”). High-risk individuals would be temporarily relocated to safe or “green zones” established at the household, neighborhood, camp/sector or community level depending on the context and setting. They would have minimal contact with family members and other low-risk residents.

Current evidence indicates that older adults and people of any age who have serious underlying medical conditions are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19. In most humanitarian settings, older population groups make up a small percentage of the total population. For this reason, the shielding approach suggests physically separating high-risk individuals from the general population to prioritize the use of the limited available resources and avoid implementing long-term containment measures among the general population.

In theory, shielding may serve its objective to protect high-risk populations from disease and death. However, implementation of the approach necessitates strict adherence to protocol. Inadvertent introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission among the most vulnerable populations the approach is trying to protect.

A summary of the shielding approach described by Favas is shown in Table 1. See Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in low-resource, displaced and camp and camp-like settings, for full details."

What the fuck is this? Are we going to relitigate Korematsu and the Japanese internment all over again, except with 'vulnerable persons'?

Wait, are they really saying this approach is HUMANITARIAN?

Fucking concentration camps are now humanitarian?

Dude the USA is seriously fucked if assholes in the government can publish this and not get summarily fired and barred from ever working in the government or running for office.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 11:54:17 AM
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The general theory is quite reasonable. One of the biggest factors in different death rates between different states and nations is whether covid-19 spread unchecked among nursing homes, or whether they managed to keep it out. Especially since the high risk population is so easily identifiable -- primarily the elderly, but secondarily the obese -- why not try to protect them?

I was arguing more than a year ago that we should be focusing on things like doubling the pay of nursing home staff in exchange for staying at work for weeks at a stretch, and to have some kind of isolation or disinfection procedure for new arrivals, including supplies. The idea is to limit the chance for outside sources to infect the protected population, instead of having people and supplies coming and going every day. The operational considerations section in the CDC document is similar in concept.

But the point I was making was to do do that, and let everyone else, from business to schools, go about their normal business. No general lockdowns, no mask mandates, none of that. The basic idea is to quarantine the people at risk and protect them from the general population, instead of the crazy backwards approach of quarantining the whole population to protect the smaller high risk groups.

One side effect is the disease would spread among those who were most likely to survive, i.e. the general population, allowing the development of herd immunity, and eventually allowing the restrictions on the high risk groups to be taken down.

But we didn't follow that path. Instead, there were massive lockdowns and other restrictions on the general population, including low risk groups like most workers and schoolchildren. This slowed transmission, and slowed the development of herd immunity. And rather than protecting the most at risk, a number of countries (and 5 states) moved sick patients from hospitals into nursing homes, out of a largely unwarranted concern that the hospitals systems would soon be overwhelmed. This caused covid-19 to spread among the groups we should have been protecting, and ended up killing a lot of people. Public health completely failed to protect the most vulnerable.

But I think it's important to note that any such restrictions should be voluntary. Even if coercion can be justified in keeping the sick away from the general population, it can't be justified when it comes to people who aren't sick but are simply at higher risk. And it should have been short-term, because it's not a viable long-term strategy. More than 18 months in, the dreadful social, psychological, and even physical effects of isolating people from their loved ones, or even normal human contact, is more apparent than ever.

The camps in the document you're referencing sound as creepy as hell, but that's based on what's not said, rather than what is said. Are they going to force people into these camps? I can't tell. They don't even mention consent, or any of the obvious considerations like messaging or the role of law enforcement. The whole document seems very poorly developed. They're checking some of the usual boxes that appear in every disaster plan, but it doesn't gel into something coherent. The overarching goal or plan is unclear, and a lot of basic considerations aren't even mentioned.

Honestly, the document should have never been published. It's a mess.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 11, 2021, 12:39:51 PM

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The general theory is quite reasonable.

For a Resident Evil game, yes. Another reason why people need to stop treating Covid as the mere cold. If you go on YouTube, you’ll see healthy young survivors begging people to take the vax, wear masks, etc. End of the day ain’t nobody making fun of mask wearers, and if they do, who cares!? I’ve got a sweet American flag gaiter that supposedly only protects me 35% and that’s fine for me. This pandemic is being driven by reckless human behavior! The virus needs a host, don’t be the host = end of pandemic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 11, 2021, 12:52:18 PM

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The general theory is quite reasonable.

For a Resident Evil game, yes. Another reason why people need to stop treating Covid as the mere cold. If you go on YouTube, you’ll see healthy young survivors begging people to take the vax, wear masks, etc. End of the day ain’t nobody making fun of mask wearers, and if they do, who cares!? I’ve got a sweet American flag gaiter that supposedly only protects me 35% and that’s fine for me. This pandemic is being driven by reckless human behavior! The virus needs a host, don’t be the host = end of pandemic.

   I think most treat it as if it were the flu, and since the flu is more deadly to people under 25, that seem appropriate with regard to whether kids in school should be mandated wearing a mask.  Strange we NEVER cared enough about the health of kids to make everyone wear masks during flu season, but now we are extremely concerned and kids must mask up to attend school.   if people want to be actually protected out in the world, wear a respirator or a gas mask.  otherwise you are just jerking off.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 11, 2021, 04:08:34 PM
Can you provide a reliable source on your "California doctors & nurses instructed to withhold care for unvaccinated" rumor, or are you just talking out of your ass?

I wasn't trying to present that as anything more than a rumor, but it's definitely something I will keep an eye on. It squares pretty readily with testimonial from an associate of mine as a nurse in California, ongoing attempts to hype vaccination & drive up resentment towards unvaccinated folks.

Even if true, I doubt there's an official memo reading: "NOTICE of CRIMINAL INTENT," so it comes down to a he-said, she-said anyway.

Dude the USA is seriously fucked if assholes in the government can publish this and not get summarily fired and barred from ever working in the government or running for office.

Yes we are. Canada already has camps set up, FWIW, complete with cheerful "VAX MAKES YOU FREE" signage on the fences.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 11, 2021, 05:15:54 PM

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The general theory is quite reasonable.

For a Resident Evil game, yes. Another reason why people need to stop treating Covid as the mere cold. If you go on YouTube, you’ll see healthy young survivors begging people to take the vax, wear masks, etc. End of the day ain’t nobody making fun of mask wearers, and if they do, who cares!? I’ve got a sweet American flag gaiter that supposedly only protects me 35% and that’s fine for me. This pandemic is being driven by reckless human behavior! The virus needs a host, don’t be the host = end of pandemic.

How do you "not be a host"? Become a robot person?

The party line now is that vaccines only prevent harm, they do not prevent spread. And masking does not protect you, it's supposed to protect others.
Jesus, at least get the propoganda straight!

https://www.rollcall.com/2021/07/30/cdc-report-shows-vaccinated-people-can-spread-covid-19/

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6s2IBhCnARIsAP8RfAiLZJ40pjTsysfhapHeMhhTUbTuhKfuIPFkZWKZiLO_BSRx0-Y7wWoaAh_LEALw_wcB

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 11, 2021, 05:29:57 PM
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The shielding approach aims to reduce the number of severe COVID-19 cases by limiting contact between individuals at higher risk of developing severe disease (“high-risk”) and the general population (“low-risk”). High-risk individuals would be temporarily relocated to safe or “green zones” established at the household, neighborhood, camp/sector or community level depending on the context and setting. They would have minimal contact with family members and other low-risk residents.

Current evidence indicates that older adults and people of any age who have serious underlying medical conditions are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19. In most humanitarian settings, older population groups make up a small percentage of the total population. For this reason, the shielding approach suggests physically separating high-risk individuals from the general population to prioritize the use of the limited available resources and avoid implementing long-term containment measures among the general population.

In theory, shielding may serve its objective to protect high-risk populations from disease and death. However, implementation of the approach necessitates strict adherence to protocol. Inadvertent introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission among the most vulnerable populations the approach is trying to protect.

A summary of the shielding approach described by Favas is shown in Table 1. See Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in low-resource, displaced and camp and camp-like settings, for full details."

What the fuck is this? Are we going to relitigate Korematsu and the Japanese internment all over again, except with 'vulnerable persons'?

Keeping high risk individuals safe seems like a much smarter idea then say locking down everyone.

For example Viva Frei has an interesting video about how the elderly in Canada were essentially abandoned and died not from the Wuhan China virus but from neglect.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 06:57:20 PM
Keeping high risk individuals safe seems like a much smarter idea then say locking down everyone.

For example Viva Frei has an interesting video about how the elderly in Canada were essentially abandoned and died not from the Wuhan China virus but from neglect.
Ireland did something similar. It's been months, but NPR ran a bit where they talked about how elderly were supposed to stay home ("cocoon"), and how the communities got together to bring them meals and stuff. All very Pollyanna Kumbaya and focused on heart-warming individual stories.

https://brill.com/view/journals/ejhl/28/1/article-p81_6.xml
Doesn't sound like it worked. More than half of all Irish covid-19 deaths were in nursing homes. And relying on community support for things like food raises the question of whether all communities provided similar support, especially in areas with a higher elderly population and thus a greater burden; whether the support was evenly sustained for months on end; and whether it truly met all their all needs, like special dietary requirements, drugs, or simple things like cleaning that might be beyond the capabilities of some elderly. Though apparently it wasn't a mandate, so the elderly didn't have to obey, but the wording and messaging was unclear so apparently a lot of people weren't certain whether it was being enforced with the full threat of the law. And they changed the rules a lot, leading to further confusion. The article also notes the rise in loneliness and depression, and concludes that cocooning won't protect the elderly in the long term.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 11, 2021, 07:13:19 PM
Keeping high risk individuals safe seems like a much smarter idea then say locking down everyone.

For example Viva Frei has an interesting video about how the elderly in Canada were essentially abandoned and died not from the Wuhan China virus but from neglect.
Ireland did something similar. It's been months, but NPR ran a bit where they talked about how elderly were supposed to stay home ("cocoon"), and how the communities got together to bring them meals and stuff. All very Pollyanna Kumbaya and focused on heart-warming individual stories.

https://brill.com/view/journals/ejhl/28/1/article-p81_6.xml
Doesn't sound like it worked. More than half of all Irish covid-19 deaths were in nursing homes. And relying on community support for things like food raises the question of whether all communities provided similar support, especially in areas with a higher elderly population and thus a greater burden; whether the support was evenly sustained for months on end; and whether it truly met all their all needs, like special dietary requirements, drugs, or simple things like cleaning that might be beyond the capabilities of some elderly. Though apparently it wasn't a mandate, so the elderly didn't have to obey, but the wording and messaging was unclear so apparently a lot of people weren't certain whether it was being enforced with the full threat of the law. And they changed the rules a lot, leading to further confusion. The article also notes the rise in loneliness and depression, and concludes that cocooning won't protect the elderly in the long term.

What are you using as your comparison to determine if it worked or not?

The figures of 50% of deaths in nursing homes is not a lot of information to base your decision considering that the main demographic likely to die from Wuhan China virus is those people found in nursing homes.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 11, 2021, 07:16:13 PM
Keeping high risk individuals safe seems like a much smarter idea then say locking down everyone.

For example Viva Frei has an interesting video about how the elderly in Canada were essentially abandoned and died not from the Wuhan China virus but from neglect.
Ireland did something similar. It's been months, but NPR ran a bit where they talked about how elderly were supposed to stay home ("cocoon"), and how the communities got together to bring them meals and stuff. All very Pollyanna Kumbaya and focused on heart-warming individual stories.

https://brill.com/view/journals/ejhl/28/1/article-p81_6.xml
Doesn't sound like it worked. More than half of all Irish covid-19 deaths were in nursing homes. And relying on community support for things like food raises the question of whether all communities provided similar support, especially in areas with a higher elderly population and thus a greater burden; whether the support was evenly sustained for months on end; and whether it truly met all their all needs, like special dietary requirements, drugs, or simple things like cleaning that might be beyond the capabilities of some elderly. Though apparently it wasn't a mandate, so the elderly didn't have to obey, but the wording and messaging was unclear so apparently a lot of people weren't certain whether it was being enforced with the full threat of the law. And they changed the rules a lot, leading to further confusion. The article also notes the rise in loneliness and depression, and concludes that cocooning won't protect the elderly in the long term.

I was never put to the test, but my parents are in their 70's and there's no way any lockdown rules would have kept me from helping them out.* I don't give two shits about the fed and state governments tripping over their own feet to look like they knew what they were doing.

*Bar some fascistic garbage like locking me up.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 07:21:00 PM
Keeping high risk individuals safe seems like a much smarter idea then say locking down everyone.

For example Viva Frei has an interesting video about how the elderly in Canada were essentially abandoned and died not from the Wuhan China virus but from neglect.
Ireland did something similar. It's been months, but NPR ran a bit where they talked about how elderly were supposed to stay home ("cocoon"), and how the communities got together to bring them meals and stuff. All very Pollyanna Kumbaya and focused on heart-warming individual stories.

https://brill.com/view/journals/ejhl/28/1/article-p81_6.xml
Doesn't sound like it worked. More than half of all Irish covid-19 deaths were in nursing homes. And relying on community support for things like food raises the question of whether all communities provided similar support, especially in areas with a higher elderly population and thus a greater burden; whether the support was evenly sustained for months on end; and whether it truly met all their all needs, like special dietary requirements, drugs, or simple things like cleaning that might be beyond the capabilities of some elderly. Though apparently it wasn't a mandate, so the elderly didn't have to obey, but the wording and messaging was unclear so apparently a lot of people weren't certain whether it was being enforced with the full threat of the law. And they changed the rules a lot, leading to further confusion. The article also notes the rise in loneliness and depression, and concludes that cocooning won't protect the elderly in the long term.

What are you using as your comparison to determine if it worked or not?

The figures of 50% of deaths in nursing homes is not a lot of information to base your decision considering that the main demographic likely to die from Wuhan China virus is those people found in nursing homes.
I'm going by the standard that more than 40% of all covid-related deaths taking place in nursing homes has been considered bad in the US. Which may not be the best metric, because it doesn't take into account differences in demographics. But the main support for my conclusion is the article I linked, which is pretty critical of the Irish response, including cocooning.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 07:33:40 PM
I was never put to the test, but my parents are in their 70's and there's no way any lockdown rules would have kept me from helping them out.* I don't give two shits about the fed and state governments tripping over their own feet to look like they knew what they were doing.

*Bar some fascistic garbage like locking me up.
It was put to the test for me, several times. This was literally the weekend when the states involved were imposing new travel restrictions, and we weren't sure if they were going to pull some fascistic garbage like locking us up. Didn't stop us. Turned out the dire warnings was just a paper tiger, but we didn't know that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 11, 2021, 08:18:58 PM
I'm going by the standard that more than 40% of all covid-related deaths taking place in nursing homes has been considered bad in the US. Which may not be the best metric, because it doesn't take into account differences in demographics. But the main support for my conclusion is the article I linked, which is pretty critical of the Irish response, including cocooning.

I had a quick look through.  My main take away was that it was a half arsed effort of everyone doing their own thing with no systemic support from the government.

So not so much a reflection that isolating vulnerable people does not work; more that doing things badly gives bad results.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on August 11, 2021, 09:18:23 PM
Greetings!

More Pro-masking, pro-vaccine cucketry and shrill condescending and smug lecturing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/america-this-is-you-grow-the-hell-up/ar-AANd61E?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 09:21:41 PM
I'm going by the standard that more than 40% of all covid-related deaths taking place in nursing homes has been considered bad in the US. Which may not be the best metric, because it doesn't take into account differences in demographics. But the main support for my conclusion is the article I linked, which is pretty critical of the Irish response, including cocooning.

I had a quick look through.  My main take away was that it was a half arsed effort of everyone doing their own thing with no systemic support from the government.

So not so much a reflection that isolating vulnerable people does not work; more that doing things badly gives bad results.
Did you read my post in response to Ghostmaker's link to the CDC's shielding guidelines? I said the theory is sound, it's just the paper is an incoherent mess. Same with Ireland's response.

The basic problem is the government response tends to become terrible when politics is involved. There's too much accommodating special interests, especially when established plans and procedures are thrown out the window, which we saw multiple times during the pandemic. The WHO was very clear in 2019, for instance, that masks and contact tracing didn't work for respiratory diseases, but then the politics of "we have to look like we're doing something" intervened. And governments tend to be terrible at improvising, because the political incentive system is based more on the appearance of doing something now than on whether it really works.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 11, 2021, 09:54:36 PM
I'm going by the standard that more than 40% of all covid-related deaths taking place in nursing homes has been considered bad in the US. Which may not be the best metric, because it doesn't take into account differences in demographics. But the main support for my conclusion is the article I linked, which is pretty critical of the Irish response, including cocooning.

I had a quick look through.  My main take away was that it was a half arsed effort of everyone doing their own thing with no systemic support from the government.

So not so much a reflection that isolating vulnerable people does not work; more that doing things badly gives bad results.
Did you read my post in response to Ghostmaker's link to the CDC's shielding guidelines? I said the theory is sound, it's just the paper is an incoherent mess. Same with Ireland's response.

The basic problem is the government response tends to become terrible when politics is involved. There's too much accommodating special interests, especially when established plans and procedures are thrown out the window, which we saw multiple times during the pandemic. The WHO was very clear in 2019, for instance, that masks and contact tracing didn't work for respiratory diseases, but then the politics of "we have to look like we're doing something" intervened. And governments tend to be terrible at improvising, because the political incentive system is based more on the appearance of doing something now than on whether it really works.

Are we disagreeing?  Maybe there was something in regard to Ghostmaker.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 10:08:24 PM
Are we disagreeing? 
Don't seem to be.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 11, 2021, 11:04:55 PM
So the freebies weren’t enough!? You could’ve gotten a free beer or cheeseburger. What else yous want?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 12, 2021, 12:10:05 AM
So the freebies weren’t enough!? You could’ve gotten a free beer or cheeseburger. What else yous want?
Bodily autonomy, the most basic of all human rights.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: consolcwby on August 12, 2021, 12:30:44 AM
So the freebies weren’t enough!? You could’ve gotten a free beer or cheeseburger. What else yous want?
Bodily autonomy, the most basic of all human rights.
But they don't consider you human. Just a pest to be exterminated...
(I don't mean you as in you specifically, I mean the masses obviously!)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 12, 2021, 08:45:20 AM
So the freebies weren’t enough!? You could’ve gotten a free beer or cheeseburger. What else yous want?
Bodily autonomy, the most basic of all human rights.
Like I commented before: 'my body, my choice' is deader than dogshit now. Nice work.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 12, 2021, 08:56:27 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 12, 2021, 09:36:51 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 12, 2021, 09:38:12 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.
>assumes the point is to protect people from the Chinese coof

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 12, 2021, 09:42:21 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Sounds like the premise of a zombie apocalypse flick.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 12, 2021, 10:37:40 AM
Governments should be giving out free leafy green vegetables, gym passes, and ivermectin. The first two would pay for themselves easily in reduced medical costs, and the latter would actually stop transmission (something the "vax" is demonstrated not to do).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on August 12, 2021, 11:32:02 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Thus articulating one of my nightmares about this mRNA technology.  Really easy to get rid of "undesirables" this way.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 12, 2021, 11:58:28 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Thus articulating one of my nightmares about this mRNA technology.  Really easy to get rid of "undesirables" this way.

Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 12, 2021, 12:20:02 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 12, 2021, 12:22:51 PM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Thus articulating one of my nightmares about this mRNA technology.  Really easy to get rid of "undesirables" this way.

Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
Right, because a virus with a 99.97% survival rate for folks under 60 will create a mass shortage of employees.  The innumeracy amongst the Branch Covidians is staggering...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 12, 2021, 01:01:56 PM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

  LOL.  I think it would get people shot in the face. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 12, 2021, 01:23:14 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.

That’s how ‘08 recession came to be. Constantly ignoring the signs, lack of communication, and lack of preemptiveness. Right now Covid is transitioning from old to young, many not all, with preexistente health problems. When you look at the signs what does that tell you? I’m sure ignoring wouldn’t be the first thing that comes to mind, would it? Sure liberals are capitalizing on it to push forward their agenda, without a doubt. However, that does not invalidate the danger associated with further mutations of the virus. Science remains apolitical, no matter how hard they try.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 12, 2021, 01:38:05 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.

That’s how ‘08 recession came to be. Constantly ignoring the signs, lack of communication, and lack of preemptiveness. Right now Covid is transitioning from old to young, many not all, with preexistente health problems. When you look at the signs what does that tell you? I’m sure ignoring wouldn’t be the first thing that comes to mind, would it? Sure liberals are capitalizing on it to push forward their agenda, without a doubt. However, that does not invalidate the danger associated with further mutations of the virus. Science remains apolitical, no matter how hard they try.
No, it's not transitioning from the old to the young. And no, that's not what happened in 2008. And no, the people you're referring to as liberals aren't liberals. And no, science can become very political, unless you believe studies funded by tobacco companies truly showed that cigarettes are harmless.

And I fail to see what any of that has to do with the topic at hand. Your post is just a random assortment of mostly unrelated false statements.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 12, 2021, 01:49:42 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.

That’s how ‘08 recession came to be. Constantly ignoring the signs, lack of communication, and lack of preemptiveness. Right now Covid is transitioning from old to young, many not all, with preexistente health problems. When you look at the signs what does that tell you? I’m sure ignoring wouldn’t be the first thing that comes to mind, would it? Sure liberals are capitalizing on it to push forward their agenda, without a doubt. However, that does not invalidate the danger associated with further mutations of the virus. Science remains apolitical, no matter how hard they try.
No, it's not transitioning from the old to the young. And no, that's not what happened in 2008. And no, the people you're referring to as liberals aren't liberals. And no, science can become very political, unless you believe studies funded by tobacco companies truly showed that cigarettes are harmless.

And I fail to see what any of that has to do with the topic at hand. Your post is just a random assortment of mostly unrelated false statements.

Soon you’ll say Covid never happened, never was a thing, and the millions of deaths were merely placebo and power of the mind. This oblivious mentality is reckless! How many years since you interacted with the outside world!? That’s the mentality that pushes liberals to promote nonsense like the title implies.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 12, 2021, 01:58:04 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.

That’s how ‘08 recession came to be. Constantly ignoring the signs, lack of communication, and lack of preemptiveness. Right now Covid is transitioning from old to young, many not all, with preexistente health problems. When you look at the signs what does that tell you? I’m sure ignoring wouldn’t be the first thing that comes to mind, would it? Sure liberals are capitalizing on it to push forward their agenda, without a doubt. However, that does not invalidate the danger associated with further mutations of the virus. Science remains apolitical, no matter how hard they try.
No, it's not transitioning from the old to the young. And no, that's not what happened in 2008. And no, the people you're referring to as liberals aren't liberals. And no, science can become very political, unless you believe studies funded by tobacco companies truly showed that cigarettes are harmless.

And I fail to see what any of that has to do with the topic at hand. Your post is just a random assortment of mostly unrelated false statements.

Soon you’ll say Covid never happened, never was a thing, and the millions of deaths were merely placebo and power of the mind. This oblivious mentality is reckless! How many years since you interacted with the outside world!? That’s the mentality that pushes liberals to promote nonsense like the title implies.
I will? Okay, two can play that game.

Soon you'll say that the Moon landing was fake, that lizard people control the government, and that you want to fuck an elephant. This perverted mentality is insane. How many years since you left your mom's basement or took a bath? This is the behavior that drives people want to bring out a bulldozer to knock down your external wall, a forklift to remove you from your crusty bed, and a ladder truck loaded with soapy water to cleanse the environmental disaster caused by a complete lack of personal hygiene.

Though no liberal would ever supporting imprisoning people because of an individual's personal medical decisions. "Liberal" is derived from liberty, and liberals support all the things you oppose, like natural rights, the free market, and the primacy of the individual.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 12, 2021, 02:02:07 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.

That’s how ‘08 recession came to be. Constantly ignoring the signs, lack of communication, and lack of preemptiveness. Right now Covid is transitioning from old to young, many not all, with preexistente health problems. When you look at the signs what does that tell you? I’m sure ignoring wouldn’t be the first thing that comes to mind, would it? Sure liberals are capitalizing on it to push forward their agenda, without a doubt. However, that does not invalidate the danger associated with further mutations of the virus. Science remains apolitical, no matter how hard they try.
No, it's not transitioning from the old to the young. And no, that's not what happened in 2008. And no, the people you're referring to as liberals aren't liberals. And no, science can become very political, unless you believe studies funded by tobacco companies truly showed that cigarettes are harmless.

And I fail to see what any of that has to do with the topic at hand. Your post is just a random assortment of mostly unrelated false statements.

Soon you’ll say Covid never happened, never was a thing, and the millions of deaths were merely placebo and power of the mind. This oblivious mentality is reckless! How many years since you interacted with the outside world!? That’s the mentality that pushes liberals to promote nonsense like the title implies.
I will? Okay, two can play that game.

Soon you'll say that the Moon landing was fake, that lizard people control the government, and that you want to fuck an elephant. This perverted mentality is insane. How many years since you left your mom's basement or took a bath? This is the behavior that drives people want to bring out a bulldozer to knock down your external wall, a forklift to remove you from your crusty bed, and a ladder truck loaded with soapy water to cleanse the environmental disaster caused by a complete lack of personal hygiene.

Though no liberal would ever supporting imprisoning people because of an individual's personal medical decisions. "Liberal" is derived from liberty, and liberals support all the things you oppose, like natural rights, the free market, and the primacy of the individual.

Lmao you almost got me there. I’ll assume you're ‘special’.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 12, 2021, 02:08:12 PM
Lmao you almost got me there. I’ll assume you're ‘special’.
What'd I get wrong? Is it your grandmother's basement, not your mother's?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 12, 2021, 02:22:17 PM
I have a feeling that Felix is just fucking with people. His views are too intentionally troll-ish for me.

Anyway, I spoke to my dentist, and she confirmed to me that yes storebought masks don't prevent the molecular level covid particles from transmitting through the air through them. And that Covid is transmissible through eyeballs.

Even assuming 100% vaccination-THIS WILL NOT BE A SLAM DUNK SOLUTION. Covid is something we will have to just get used to and treat as if it was the flue eventually. In the long term - vacc or no vacc we will all be sick with it.

The idea that 'If only everybody vacced and isolated this thing would have died off!' is a placebo to make people feel secure about a disease thats here to stay and yes can make some people VERY sick sometimes.

Just because its survivable, doesn't make it not-dangerous. But life as a whole is dangerous, and we have not installed guard rials at every crosswalk.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 12, 2021, 03:33:11 PM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Thus articulating one of my nightmares about this mRNA technology.  Really easy to get rid of "undesirables" this way.
Perhap you should be less of a shitty human being then so as to not be seen as undesirable? 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 12, 2021, 03:34:49 PM
Perhap you should be less of a shitty human being then so as to not be seen as undesirable?

We can't all be winners Happy. Can you in your rightousness be merciful to the undeserved?  :'(
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 12, 2021, 03:35:15 PM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Thus articulating one of my nightmares about this mRNA technology.  Really easy to get rid of "undesirables" this way.

Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
Right, because a virus with a 99.97% survival rate for folks under 60 will create a mass shortage of employees.  The innumeracy amongst the Branch Covidians is staggering...
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 12, 2021, 03:36:34 PM
Perhap you should be less of a shitty human being then so as to not be seen as undesirable?

We can't all be winners Happy. Can you in your rightousness be merciful to the undeserved?  :'(
I have it on my calendar  for Tuesdays and every-other Friday.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 12, 2021, 03:38:04 PM
Lmao you almost got me there. I’ll assume you're ‘special’.
What'd I get wrong? Is it your grandmother's basement, not your mother's?
No, Pat, it's *your mother's* basement!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 12, 2021, 04:55:35 PM
Perhap you should be less of a shitty human being then so as to not be seen as undesirable?

We can't all be winners Happy. Can you in your rightousness be merciful to the undeserved?  :'(

You know we just talk about mercy in theory, we dont actually practice it.

Like caring about the environment.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 13, 2021, 05:17:05 PM
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.

A tiny minority; most people don't even know they've had it, their symptoms are so mild, and they have no lingering effects at all. A handful outliers with poor physiology don't merit any of this charade.

What about vaccine injuries, which seem to be worse in people who've recovered from previous covid infections?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 13, 2021, 05:36:53 PM
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.

A tiny minority; most people don't even know they've had it, their symptoms are so mild, and they have no lingering effects at all. A handful outliers with poor physiology don't merit any of this charade.

What about vaccine injuries, which seem to be worse in people who've recovered from previous covid infections?
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 13, 2021, 06:14:14 PM
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.

A tiny minority; most people don't even know they've had it, their symptoms are so mild, and they have no lingering effects at all. A handful outliers with poor physiology don't merit any of this charade.

What about vaccine injuries, which seem to be worse in people who've recovered from previous covid infections?
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.
Lead by example...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 13, 2021, 06:17:19 PM
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.

A tiny minority; most people don't even know they've had it, their symptoms are so mild, and they have no lingering effects at all. A handful outliers with poor physiology don't merit any of this charade.

What about vaccine injuries, which seem to be worse in people who've recovered from previous covid infections?
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.
Lead by example...
I do. It's a pity you can't understand that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: consolcwby on August 13, 2021, 08:10:29 PM
I, myself, can't wait to see (probably within 7 years or so) when the Dems begin to state that all those masks thrown away over years of use has destroyed much of the oceans and are now toxic in the landfills! And you can't burn them because... COVID WILL BE IN THE AIR!!!

THE ENVIRONMENT WAS DESTROYED BY THE PRO-MASKERS!!! AND ...
IT'S ALL TRUMP'S FAULT!
IT'S ALL MAGA'S FAULT!
TO SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT, WE MUST NOW: KILL! KILL!! KILL!!!!

(on the otherhand, why wait - just burn down some more black-owned businesses and show the dems how you REALLY care!)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 13, 2021, 08:57:44 PM
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.

A tiny minority; most people don't even know they've had it, their symptoms are so mild, and they have no lingering effects at all. A handful outliers with poor physiology don't merit any of this charade.

What about vaccine injuries, which seem to be worse in people who've recovered from previous covid infections?
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.
Lead by example...
I do. It's a pity you can't understand that.
It's a pity you can't see you're one of the shitty people.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 14, 2021, 04:56:19 PM
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.

Putting your scaremongering bullshit into context. You see the worst affected people, you don't see the majority who never even need any kind of medical assistance and just get over it by themselves.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 14, 2021, 05:59:37 PM
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.

Putting your scaremongering bullshit into context. You see the worst affected people, you don't see the majority who never even need any kind of medical assistance and just get over it by themselves.
Thank you for acknowledging that I see those at their worst...and their families (up until we have to block visitors,  then I have to deal with barrage of phone calls from them while I'm trying to care for the sickest). Putting your bullshit in context: these are the people you ignor or minimize by trying to downplay Covid as nothing more than a common cold.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on August 14, 2021, 09:13:43 PM
Lmao you almost got me there. I’ll assume you're ‘special’.
What'd I get wrong? Is it your grandmother's basement, not your mother's?
No, Pat, it's *your mother's* basement!
Pat is also wrong about the lizard people.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Tnxh1X0D7XE/VvW8ewSTUCI/AAAAAAAAT1A/sh_SP-ITHzMU5wKhZunTTeCAO2RUR3OjQ/s640/CeZn1y_UAAAJRoJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on August 15, 2021, 08:47:02 PM
Lmao you almost got me there. I’ll assume you're ‘special’.
What'd I get wrong? Is it your grandmother's basement, not your mother's?
No, Pat, it's *your mother's* basement!
Pat is also wrong about the lizard people.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Tnxh1X0D7XE/VvW8ewSTUCI/AAAAAAAAT1A/sh_SP-ITHzMU5wKhZunTTeCAO2RUR3OjQ/s640/CeZn1y_UAAAJRoJ.jpg)

I mean modern medicine is literally using the body parts and cells of babies so I'm not sure how anyone accepting the coof "vax" is not actually consuming the tissue of babies.  So the reptile people conspiracy of consuming the young is correct?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 16, 2021, 04:46:24 AM
Thank you for acknowledging that I see those at their worst...and their families (up until we have to block visitors,  then I have to deal with barrage of phone calls from them while I'm trying to care for the sickest). Putting your bullshit in context: these are the people you ignor or minimize by trying to downplay Covid as nothing more than a common cold.

I'm no more concerned about the worst affected than I ever have been in any previous year. For most people, myself included, covid is nothing more than a bad cold.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 16, 2021, 06:19:42 AM
Thank you for acknowledging that I see those at their worst...and their families (up until we have to block visitors,  then I have to deal with barrage of phone calls from them while I'm trying to care for the sickest). Putting your bullshit in context: these are the people you ignor or minimize by trying to downplay Covid as nothing more than a common cold.

I'm no more concerned about the worst affected than I ever have been in any previous year. For most people, myself included, covid is nothing more than a bad cold.
You're wrong. Look at the many ways people are responding. Whether positive or negative,  these are not the responses people have to a "bad cold." To suggest that it is so, just makes you look like an idiot.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 16, 2021, 12:36:17 PM
You're wrong. Look at the many ways people are responding. Whether positive or negative,  these are not the responses people have to a "bad cold." To suggest that it is so, just makes you look like an idiot.

Excessive, borderline-hysterical and completely unnecessary response from the government doesn't make it a "crisis". It was (past tense) a bad cold season that passed over a year ago.

The only idiots are people like you who insist we carry on pretending there's a pandemic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 18, 2021, 02:14:08 PM
Today I was catching up with some of The Quartering videos. There’s this one in particular that sent shivers down my spine. In France, they’re apparently walking around asking for papers in some establishments. It’s chilling to watch!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 18, 2021, 02:41:13 PM
Today I was catching up with some of The Quartering videos. There’s this one in particular that sent shivers down my spine. In France, they’re apparently walking around asking for papers in some establishments. It’s chilling to watch!
You missed where NYC is rolling out their 'Key to New York' program, where you won't be allowed into ANY building without valid vaccination papers.

"Papers, please."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 18, 2021, 02:46:24 PM
Today I was catching up with some of The Quartering videos. There’s this one in particular that sent shivers down my spine. In France, they’re apparently walking around asking for papers in some establishments. It’s chilling to watch!
You missed where NYC is rolling out their 'Key to New York' program, where you won't be allowed into ANY building without valid vaccination papers.

"Papers, please."

I think the only reason Cali didn’t go there yet is so Newsom doesn’t get a 49th recall in under a year.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 18, 2021, 02:46:36 PM
It was never sold as a 100% cure. They accurately reported the percentage effectiveness against each strain as it arose and none of those were 100%.

Not even 1% efficacy. Utterly pointless and probably making infections worse if Israel's latest data is anything to go by. What a strange coincidence that all the places with the highest level of vaccination also have the highest levels of infection.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

Fuck off, not a chance.

Somehow this "deadly" virus has failed to kill me, or leave any lasting impacts, twice. Might I not even notice it the next time?

1% efficacy? Makes infections worse? Places with the highest vaccination rates have the highest infection rates?

NOTHING you just said is true.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 18, 2021, 04:37:54 PM
1% efficacy? Makes infections worse? Places with the highest vaccination rates have the highest infection rates?

NOTHING you just said is true.



Around 1% actual risk reduction. Israel. Iceland. The UK. Highest rates of vaccination, highest rates of infection.

Try again.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 19, 2021, 08:04:27 PM
The ~1% risk reduction is from the actual Pfizer clinical trial. This is the absolute risk reduction (ARR) flipside to the oft-reported, but misleading, relative risk reduction (RRR) 95%.

The Pfizer clinical trial was specifically assessing the efficacy of their product in reducing mild cases of Covid. So it's interesting the goalpost that most people are now looking at isn't prevention of infection or reduction of mild illness, it's serious cases and deaths. The trials weren't designed for that (ironically because conducting a trial for serious cases and deaths would have required a lot more people because serious cases and deaths are actually very rare). I think a lot of people are looking with concern at places like Israel where it seems like injections are either failing over time, or never provided the kind of protection that CDC/etal were assuming they did.


As for "makes infections worse" -- Pretty speculative still. There are some pointing at ADE in Israel, others suggesting that injections interfere with normal immune response. I'm assuming this statement is playing off of very-poorly-chosen words by CDC spokeswoman Walensky?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 20, 2021, 04:44:56 AM
It's a similar number for the Moderna jab (I think it was 1.1% where the ARR was 0.8% for Pfizer). Ironically, the much-maligned Astrazeneca jab is 1.6%.

Still in every case, the actual impact is fuck all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 20, 2021, 08:43:20 PM
It's a similar number for the Moderna jab (I think it was 1.1% where the ARR was 0.8% for Pfizer). Ironically, the much-maligned Astrazeneca jab is 1.6%.

Still in every case, the actual impact is fuck all.

You not understanding it doesn't mean it's not working. “Let’s say a study enrolled 20,000 patients into the control group and 20,000 in the vaccine group. In that study, 200 people in the control group got sick and 0 people in the vaccine group got sick. Even though the vaccine efficacy would be a whopping 100%, the ARR would show that vaccines reduce the absolute risk by just 1% (200/20,000= 1%). For the ARR to increase to 20% in our example study with a vaccine with 100% efficacy, 4,000 of the 20,000 people in the control group would have to get sick (4,000/20,000= 20%).”

"RRR tells us how much the risk of infection is “reduced in the test vaccine group, compared to a control group who did not receive the test vaccine.” The RRR, or efficacy, tells us "how well the vaccine protects clinical trial participants from getting sick or getting very sick.”"

RRR is the right number to use for vaccines.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 21, 2021, 07:44:44 AM
It's a similar number for the Moderna jab (I think it was 1.1% where the ARR was 0.8% for Pfizer). Ironically, the much-maligned Astrazeneca jab is 1.6%.

Still in every case, the actual impact is fuck all.

You not understanding it doesn't mean it's not working. “Let’s say a study enrolled 20,000 patients into the control group and 20,000 in the vaccine group. In that study, 200 people in the control group got sick and 0 people in the vaccine group got sick. Even though the vaccine efficacy would be a whopping 100%, the ARR would show that vaccines reduce the absolute risk by just 1% (200/20,000= 1%). For the ARR to increase to 20% in our example study with a vaccine with 100% efficacy, 4,000 of the 20,000 people in the control group would have to get sick (4,000/20,000= 20%).”

"RRR tells u