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Author Topic: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!  (Read 199229 times)

dkabq

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #840 on: November 26, 2021, 11:13:35 AM »
I respectfully disagree.

My understanding is that while a vaccine may not be 100% effective, when it is effective, it prevents infection. For example:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20392713/
"...that the vaccine is highly effective in preventing infection (VE(S) = 0.997, 95% credible interval: 0.993-0.999)"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33805681/
"The prevalence of individuals with vaccine-induced measles immunity in the target measles vaccination population was 88.1%"

Sorry, no, those "effectiveness" figures are bullshit relative risk reduction numbers. The actual risk reduction figures, in the manufacturers own data, is around 1%. They do not stop people contracting coronavirus, and therefore have fuck all impact on transmission.

If the covid vaccines are not preventing infection, then I have to agree that they are not vaccines, but are therapeutics. Moreover, it also begs the question of whether, between a waning efficacy and it not preventing infection, can herd immunity ever be achieved (one of the reasons given for forcing people to get vaccinated).

There's no "if" about it, covid jabs categorically do not prevent infection. They even admit it in public.

Here's my own Prime Minster saying so: https://dailysceptic.org/2021/10/24/boris-admits-the-vaccine-doesnt-protect-you-against-catching-the-disease-and-it-doesnt-protect-you-against-passing-it-on/

Herd immunity can be achieved through infection and recovery providing natural immunity. Same as we always have for coronaviruses and flu. Which was indeed happening, until someone decided to roll out a leaky therapeutic treatment that destroys people's immune systems and primes them to ignore an old strain.

Those citations are for the measles vaccine, to show that vaccines (as characterized by data/measurements) prevent infection/confer immunity. I am not clear on what you are referring to otherwise.



Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #841 on: November 26, 2021, 11:14:17 AM »
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!
I see you didn't answer the question.
You didn't answer my question first.

And I've literally never heard someone say the vaccines cause covid, so it seems silly to come up with a name for a group whose membership = 0.

Oh my fucking God Kiero said that TWO POSTS ABOVE YOURS, FOR LIKE THE 10th TIME! ASK HIM!

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #842 on: November 26, 2021, 11:15:10 AM »
Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.


The things I'm saying that are accurate observations of what's going on, you mean? I really hope you and the other lab rats are still around 6-12 months from now so you can see how wrong you were. Not that you'll admit it.
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Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #843 on: November 26, 2021, 11:15:36 AM »
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!
I see you didn't answer the question.
You didn't answer my question first.

And I've literally never heard someone say the vaccines cause covid, so it seems silly to come up with a name for a group whose membership = 0.
Do you not see Kiero's posts? I never said you'd hear it spoken, but the fool believes the vaccine causes Covid and he's quite vocal about.
This is another one of those exaggerations in the dumbest possible way to bend the news, isn't it?

I thought for a second you were being serious again. Brilliant!

Stop. Just stop. Ask Kiero directly. Phrase the question however you want. I think you will be somehow shocked at his answer. No, really, he actually does believe that. No, don't reply to me, just fucking asking him.

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #844 on: November 26, 2021, 11:17:05 AM »
Those citations are for the measles vaccine, to show that vaccines (as characterized by data/measurements) prevent infection/confer immunity. I am not clear on what you are referring to otherwise.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about covid jab effectiveness. Let's make it simpler.

Measles vaccines have a 93% chance of preventing an infection (which is as close to guaranteed for most people - as I said some people have weird immune systems and the jab doesn't take).

Covid jabs have a 1% chance of preventing an infection.

One thing is not like the other.
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Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #845 on: November 26, 2021, 11:18:49 AM »
Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.


The things I'm saying that are accurate observations of what's going on, you mean? I really hope you and the other lab rats are still around 6-12 months from now so you can see how wrong you were. Not that you'll admit it.

Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines? Is it your opinion the things others are calling vaccines and you call not vaccines are making people's immune systems worse and more susceptible to Covid infections and infection by other things as well?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 11:21:38 AM by Mistwell »

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #846 on: November 26, 2021, 11:20:54 AM »
Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines?

They are causing the mutations that create variants and failing to offer any protection. Which is why the majority of those being hospitalised and dying with covid in the UK are double-jabbed. They have caused the virus to remain in circulation throughout the summer, rather than waning as it did in 2020.
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dkabq

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #847 on: November 26, 2021, 11:21:51 AM »
Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.


The things I'm saying that are accurate observations of what's going on, you mean? I really hope you and the other lab rats are still around 6-12 months from now so you can see how wrong you were. Not that you'll admit it.

Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines?

I think that Kiero is referring to this:
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-vaccine-resistance-mutation-model.html

« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 11:30:09 AM by dkabq »

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #848 on: November 26, 2021, 11:22:32 AM »
I think that Kiero is referring to this:
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants


I posted a lecture by JJ Couey a while back explaining the likely mechanism at work.
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Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #849 on: November 26, 2021, 11:23:02 AM »
Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines?

They are causing the mutations that create variants and failing to offer any protection. Which is why the majority of those being hospitalised and dying with covid in the UK are double-jabbed. They have caused the virus to remain in circulation throughout the summer, rather than waning as it did in 2020.

Is it your opinion that they are making people's immune systems worse, and making people more susceptible to getting both Covid and other infections?

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #850 on: November 26, 2021, 11:24:25 AM »
Is it your opinion that they are making people's immune systems worse, and making people more susceptible to getting both Covid and other infections?

Yes, it's observably so.
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Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #851 on: November 26, 2021, 11:26:18 AM »
Is it your opinion that they are making people's immune systems worse, and making people more susceptible to getting both Covid and other infections?

Yes, it's observably so.

OK so is it fair to characterize your view, in summary, as the so-called vaccines which you are against are causing Covid to spread more in society, and harm people more in society, IE they basically are what is causing Covid to be a problem?

Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #852 on: November 26, 2021, 11:56:18 AM »
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!

Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.
Oh look, more exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news.

If you weren't obsessed with carrying on this petty vendetta against me, you would have noticed I regularly contradict what Kiero says. In the last couple pages, even. But no, you have lie about what I said because you got your feelings hurt a couple weeks back when I pointed out that you make all kinds of unsupported claims, and then when you're challenged you vanish, only to reappear later like a case of herpes.

I don't agree with Kiero, but I do believe that we need to be accurate with our criticisms. HappyDaze was pointing out how the use of "dewormers" is a rather pathetic and completely dishonest attempt to bias discussion of invermectin. That's correct, it's an egregiously absurd attempt at propaganda and disinformation. But HD then used the exact same tactic in the same post, by applying the term "antivaxxer" to all kinds of people who are fans of nearly all vaccines. That kind of hypocrisy deserves to be pointed out. And then HD did the same thing with Kiero.

To be specific, Kiero never said the vaccines caused covid. That's what HD claimed Kiero said, and it's false. Kiero has claimed that the imperfect immunity causes more variants to spread, but that's a completely different argument. One that I think is a bit dubious, but it's also not one of the areas where Kiero is completely out in left field. So that's more disinformation, or "exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news".

You're blinded by butthurt and polarization. You accept any negative claims against Kiero as valid, not because they are, but because you have a negative view of Kiero, and therefore you believe that anything Kiero says must be wrong, and anything negative someone says about Kiero must be true. Which is irrational.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 11:58:37 AM by Pat »

Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #853 on: November 26, 2021, 12:02:57 PM »
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.

HappyDaze

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #854 on: November 26, 2021, 12:09:47 PM »
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.
He said it didn't fade in the summer of 2021. That would match my first hand observation that July-September were particularly bad for C19 in Florida (and reportedly in several other states too, though I did not directly observe it there). That's not a typical time for seasonal sniffles to spike, but rather (as you noted) to fade--which is not what happened this year.